Author Topic: SpaceX Falcon 9 : SARah 1 : late 2020 : Vandenberg  (Read 21664 times)

Online Chris Bergin

Discussion Thread for SARah 1 mission.

NSF Threads for SARah 1 : Discussion
NSF Articles for SARah 1 :

late 2020 on Falcon 9 from Vandenberg.

SARah 2/3 Discussion Thread



http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2013/08/spacex-awarded-european-government-contract-sarah-missions/

SARah 1 is a phased array radar satellite being built by Airbus as a subcontractor to OHB.  It is part of the three satellite SARah constellation being build for the German government as a follow-up to the SAR-Lupe radar sat constellation.  Much of the development work for SARah 1 could also be used by Airbus in their follow-up to the TerraSAR-X satellite.  SARah 1 will mass about 2200kg.

SpaceTech was selected by Airbus DS to build the solar panels for the SARah satellite

SARah 1 on Gunter's Space Page



Other SpaceX resources on NASASpaceflight:
   SpaceX News Articles (Recent)
   SpaceX News Articles from 2006 (Including numerous exclusive Elon interviews)
   SpaceX Dragon Articles
   SpaceX Missions Section (with Launch Manifest and info on past and future missions)

   L2 SpaceX Section
« Last Edit: 02/08/2019 08:50 pm by gongora »

Online Chris Bergin

Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - SARah - 2018
« Reply #1 on: 08/08/2013 07:46 pm »
SPACEX IS AWARDED LAUNCH OF GERMAN RADAR RECONNAISSANCE SATELLITE SYSTEM

Falcon 9 rocket will deliver three-satellite SARah Constellation that will serve German Ministry of Defense

 

Hawthorne, CA – Space Exploration Technologies (SpaceX) will provide the launch services for Germany’s second-generation radar reconnaissance satellite system. The satellites, provided by OHB System AG and Astrium GmbH, will replace the current constellation and will be delivered to orbit by two Falcon 9 rockets in 2018 and 2019.

 

"SpaceX looks forward to working with OHB and Astrium, and we appreciate their confidence in SpaceX to reliably deliver these satellites to orbit,” said Gwynne Shotwell, SpaceX President and COO. “These missions are very meaningful for SpaceX as the first contracted for a European government.”

 

OHB will build two passive-antenna synthetic aperture radar (SAR) satellites, and Astrium GmbH will build a larger, phased-array-antenna satellite under contract for OHB. The three-satellite constellation will replace the current OHB-built five-satellite SAR-Lupe constellation.

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - SARah - 2018
« Reply #2 on: 08/08/2013 09:00 pm »
Wait is this different from Canada's RCM contract for Radar Sats?

Okay, awake now... time to find some black coffee or something. Looks like someone has a polar launcher that is competitive to nail all these polar contracts (SARah,RCM,Iridium).
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Offline Lars_J

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - SARah - 2018
« Reply #3 on: 08/08/2013 09:19 pm »
Ah, polar, so these will launch out of VAFB, then. Right?

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - SARah - 2018
« Reply #4 on: 08/08/2013 10:05 pm »
Well all the SAR-Lupe satellites are in 480x485 98 degree orbits, if that is any hint.

search for *SAR-Lupe* on http://heavens-above.com/Satellites.aspx?lat=0&lng=0&loc=Unspecified&alt=0&tz=UCT
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Offline Ronsmytheiii

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - SARah - 2018
« Reply #5 on: 08/08/2013 11:12 pm »
This is kind of a big deal, Europe usually goes with Ariane 5 or Soyuz.  Of course SpaceX needs to keep the contracts it has by getting Falcon 9 flying those commercial payloads.

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - SARah - 2018
« Reply #6 on: 08/09/2013 12:17 am »
Wait is this different from Canada's RCM contract for Radar Sats?

Okay, awake now... time to find some black coffee or something. Looks like someone has a polar launcher that is competitive to nail all these polar contracts (SARah,RCM,Iridium).


Just of curiosity, what are the other launch vehicle options available for polar orbit missions currently? Excluding the Delta IV and the the Atlas V.

Offline pippin

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - SARah - 2018
« Reply #7 on: 08/09/2013 12:47 am »
This is kind of a big deal, Europe usually goes with Ariane 5 or Soyuz.  Of course SpaceX needs to keep the contracts it has by getting Falcon 9 flying those commercial payloads.

The first SAR-Lupe constellation was launched on Kosmos-3M's. The sats are way too small for an Ariane 5.
Vega would be an option but I don't know the size of the new sats, if they only launch two of them at a time on an F9 they might be bigger than the old ones but they are still probably only like a ton or so to SSO, nothing you'd want to use an Ariane 5 or even a single Soyuz for.

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - SARah - 2018
« Reply #8 on: 08/09/2013 01:40 am »
Delta II
Athena is being marketed again
Taurus
Taurus II Antares
Pegasus
Minotaur is not applicable since it is DOD only

And that is just the US providers
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Offline baldusi

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - SARah - 2018
« Reply #9 on: 08/09/2013 02:20 am »
Well, Vega has a 2.6m fairing, while Soyuz-STB has a 4.1m x 11m (internally 3.7m x 5.3m and then tapers ) versus the Falcon 9's 5.2m x 13m (4.6m x 6.6 and then tapers). May be they were volume limited?

Offline beancounter

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - SARah - 2018
« Reply #10 on: 08/09/2013 02:54 am »
I wonder who else bid on it if anyone?  But regardless, just another feather for SpaceX to add to their cap.
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Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - SARah - 2018
« Reply #11 on: 08/09/2013 03:16 am »
This is kind of a big deal, Europe usually goes with Ariane 5 or Soyuz.  Of course SpaceX needs to keep the contracts it has by getting Falcon 9 flying those commercial payloads.

The first SAR-Lupe constellation was launched on Kosmos-3M's. The sats are way too small for an Ariane 5.
Vega would be an option but I don't know the size of the new sats, if they only launch two of them at a time on an F9 they might be bigger than the old ones but they are still probably only like a ton or so to SSO, nothing you'd want to use an Ariane 5 or even a single Soyuz for.

The new active OHB SARah phased-array-antenna satellite is supposedly a variant of the TerraSAR-X satellite according to SpaceNews. The TerraSAR-X is about 1250 kg.

http://www.spacenews.com/article/military-space/36091ohb-signs-contract-for-germany%E2%80%99s-next-gen-radar-satellites

Offline fatjohn1408

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - SARah - 2018
« Reply #12 on: 09/18/2013 07:52 am »
I wonder who else bid on it if anyone?  But regardless, just another feather for SpaceX to add to their cap.

Yeah another bloody feather that will push their balance books closer to the red.
http://www.spacenews.com/article/military-space/35905falcon-9-selected-to-launch-german-military-radar-satellites

Falcon 1 contracts eh? So these were again sold for 20-something million then? Anybody knows?

Offline IRobot

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - SARah - 2018
« Reply #13 on: 09/18/2013 08:34 am »
I read it 2 F9 launches to replace 3 F1 launches. Still, they won't make a profit, unless they reuse first stages.

On the other hand you have to ask how much money would SpaceX spend to keep F1 active?

Offline CuddlyRocket

Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - SARah - 2018
« Reply #14 on: 09/18/2013 09:24 am »
Lots of performance margin on these flights. Good opportunity to get some testing in.

Online smoliarm

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - SARah - 2018
« Reply #15 on: 09/18/2013 11:27 am »
Lots of performance margin on these flights. Good opportunity to get some testing in.
These missions are scheduled for 2018-19. They do need testing opportunities -- now.

Online smoliarm

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - SARah - 2018
« Reply #16 on: 09/18/2013 11:41 am »
I read it 2 F9 launches to replace 3 F1 launches. Still, they won't make a profit, unless they reuse first stages.

On the other hand you have to ask how much money would SpaceX spend to keep F1 active?

"3 F1 launches" does not sound right, these SARah sats are ~ 2000 kg each
http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/sarah-a.htm
http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/sarah-p.htm

It's way too heavy for F1.

Te article says:
Quote from: SpaceNews
SpaceX ... will be launching all three of Germany’s next-generation radar reconnaissance satellites under an agreement that makes use of long-dormant options held by Astrium of Europe for the now-shelved Falcon 1 rocket, industry officials said.

We do not know what are these options and how many F1 flights were in Astrium contract. It would take 10+ launches of F1e to get 5.8 tons into polar orbit.
May be they used these options to get some discount ?

Offline Lurker Steve

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - SARah - 2018
« Reply #17 on: 09/18/2013 02:28 pm »
I wonder who else bid on it if anyone?  But regardless, just another feather for SpaceX to add to their cap.

Yeah another bloody feather that will push their balance books closer to the red.
http://www.spacenews.com/article/military-space/35905falcon-9-selected-to-launch-german-military-radar-satellites

Falcon 1 contracts eh? So these were again sold for 20-something million then? Anybody knows?

Falcon 1 contracts were down in the 10-something million range I thought.

Pretty smart deal by the Germans. And when those F1 contracts were signed, there was no hint of re-usability, so these are launching on brand-spanking new launch vehicles.


Offline mlindner

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - SARah - 2018
« Reply #18 on: 09/19/2013 12:00 am »
I read it 2 F9 launches to replace 3 F1 launches. Still, they won't make a profit, unless they reuse first stages.

On the other hand you have to ask how much money would SpaceX spend to keep F1 active?

"3 F1 launches" does not sound right, these SARah sats are ~ 2000 kg each
http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/sarah-a.htm
http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/sarah-p.htm

It's way too heavy for F1.

Te article says:
Quote from: SpaceNews
SpaceX ... will be launching all three of Germany’s next-generation radar reconnaissance satellites under an agreement that makes use of long-dormant options held by Astrium of Europe for the now-shelved Falcon 1 rocket, industry officials said.

We do not know what are these options and how many F1 flights were in Astrium contract. It would take 10+ launches of F1e to get 5.8 tons into polar orbit.
May be they used these options to get some discount ?

Agreed. There was either a contract loophole that they used to acquire F9 v1.1 rockets for a different satellite than originally intended or there was an option for many more smaller launches. Either way, if they're getting F1 prices, sounds like dirty pool.
« Last Edit: 09/19/2013 12:01 am by mlindner »
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Offline CuddlyRocket

Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - SARah - 2018
« Reply #19 on: 09/19/2013 03:30 am »
Lots of performance margin on these flights. Good opportunity to get some testing in.
These missions are scheduled for 2018-19. They do need testing opportunities -- now.

There is a continuous need for testing with a philosophy of continual improvement! :)

Falcon 9 1.1 is a step towards SpaceX's ultimate goals; there will always be the next thing to be tested whilst on that journey.

Online Jarnis

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - SARah - 2018
« Reply #20 on: 09/19/2013 08:21 am »
Lots of performance margin on these flights. Good opportunity to get some testing in.

More like good candidates for a flight that actually re-uses the booster (as there is bound to be performance penalty vs. expendable mode when returning the booster to land)

By 2018 I would expect them to have worked out the whole landing-the-first-stage thing - either it is in use at that point for all flights where the payload mass allows it, or it simply can't work with F9 v1.1 and requires another evolutionary step in booster design first.

« Last Edit: 09/19/2013 08:22 am by Jarnis »

Offline Garrett

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - SARah - 2018
« Reply #21 on: 09/19/2013 08:30 am »
Lots of performance margin on these flights. Good opportunity to get some testing in.
These missions are scheduled for 2018-19. They do need testing opportunities -- now.

There is a continuous need for testing with a philosophy of continual improvement! :)

Falcon 9 1.1 is a step towards SpaceX's ultimate goals; there will always be the next thing to be tested whilst on that journey.
2018 is less than fives years away. There's no guarantee that SpaceX will have succeeded in making their F9 or FH reusable by then. It could easily take another four to five years to achieve that goal. Those SARah launches could be well suited for testing a second-hand F9R, should the contract allow for such a possibility.
« Last Edit: 09/19/2013 08:31 am by Garrett »
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Online smoliarm

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - SARah - 2018
« Reply #22 on: 09/19/2013 08:37 am »
...
There is a continuous need for testing with a philosophy of continual improvement! :)
...

Oh no!  :o
"philosophy of continual improvement" with exclamation mark means that after just 5 launches of v1.1 there will be another year-long delay for inevitable ( >:( ) v1.2 ...
"philosophy" is a dangerous word.  ;)
Also, there is an old Russian saying (loosely translated): "BEST is the worst foe of GOOD"

[/kidding]

seriously speaking, 5 years from now and hopefully having the expected performance of v1.1 achieved -- then a launch of 2 ton sat into polar orbit gives an opportunity for ... secondary payload.



Offline fatjohn1408

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - SARah - 2018
« Reply #23 on: 09/19/2013 08:56 am »
I wonder who else bid on it if anyone?  But regardless, just another feather for SpaceX to add to their cap.

Yeah another bloody feather that will push their balance books closer to the red.
http://www.spacenews.com/article/military-space/35905falcon-9-selected-to-launch-german-military-radar-satellites

Falcon 1 contracts eh? So these were again sold for 20-something million then? Anybody knows?

Falcon 1 contracts were down in the 10-something million range I thought.

Pretty smart deal by the Germans. And when those F1 contracts were signed, there was no hint of re-usability, so these are launching on brand-spanking new launch vehicles.

Yes but Orbcomm renegotiated F1 contracts into F9 and they paid $21.3M per F9 flight.
Bad deal for SpaceX, just as I expect these SARah sats are.
But there PR makes it look like a victory, a european institutional customer.
They do know PR.

http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n1301/01orbcomm/

Offline AJW

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - SARah - 2018
« Reply #24 on: 09/19/2013 02:34 pm »
"philosophy of continual improvement" with exclamation mark means that after just 5 launches of v1.1 there will be another year-long delay for inevitable ( >:( ) v1.2 ...

I know it feels like longer, but CRS-2 was just this March.  If you were SpaceX and had the choice of six months between CRS-1 and CRS-2 launches by staying with v1.0, or the current seven months (CRS-2 to CASSIOPE) and in the process double your payload capacity, add a new launch site, and possibly gain reusability, adding one month delay to your launch cadence seems a worthwhile tradeoff.  Now add in the reports of shorter manufacturing time, lower costs, and improved reliability and that month delay can bring huge payoffs.

Offline oldAtlas_Eguy

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - SARah - 2018
« Reply #25 on: 09/19/2013 06:26 pm »
To give some perspective of when reusable may be ready for actual landing on land after a orbital launch:

1) GH1's permit from the FAA spanded 3 years 2013, 2014, and 2015.
2) The time span included enough time to rebuild a new test vehicle if GH1 cratered.
3) GH1 test have all been successful so far and the contingency added to the permit (howerver much that was) is looking like it may not be needed cutting possibly a year off development time.
4) Permit process for higher altitude GH2 flights has started.
5) But no permits for RTLS yet, putting that first RTLS somewhere 1+ years after the completion of the GH program.

Estimations:
GH1 program complete 2014.
GH2 program complete 2016.
First possible RTLS test 2017/2018.

So yes a 2018 flight of a light payload would be a oportunity to test a fully fuctional RTLS 1st stage.

Offline Karloss12

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - SARah - 2018
« Reply #26 on: 09/19/2013 07:52 pm »
To give some perspective of when reusable may be ready for actual landing on land after a orbital launch:

1) GH1's permit from the FAA spanded 3 years 2013, 2014, and 2015.
2) The time span included enough time to rebuild a new test vehicle if GH1 cratered.
3) GH1 test have all been successful so far and the contingency added to the permit (howerver much that was) is looking like it may not be needed cutting possibly a year off development time.
4) Permit process for higher altitude GH2 flights has started.
5) But no permits for RTLS yet, putting that first RTLS somewhere 1+ years after the completion of the GH program.

Estimations:
GH1 program complete 2014.
GH2 program complete 2016.
First possible RTLS test 2017/2018.

So yes a 2018 flight of a light payload would be a oportunity to test a fully fuctional RTLS 1st stage.

Or they could get lucky and have the 1st V1.1 hovering over the ocean next month and in the process skip 3 years of estimated development.          ...........not likely.

Online Robotbeat

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - SARah - 2018
« Reply #27 on: 09/19/2013 07:58 pm »
But give it a 10% chance? ;)

(But really, remember they're going to try this on other launches, too.)
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Offline kch

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - SARah - 2018
« Reply #28 on: 09/19/2013 08:00 pm »
To give some perspective of when reusable may be ready for actual landing on land after a orbital launch:

1) GH1's permit from the FAA spanded 3 years 2013, 2014, and 2015.
2) The time span included enough time to rebuild a new test vehicle if GH1 cratered.
3) GH1 test have all been successful so far and the contingency added to the permit (howerver much that was) is looking like it may not be needed cutting possibly a year off development time.
4) Permit process for higher altitude GH2 flights has started.
5) But no permits for RTLS yet, putting that first RTLS somewhere 1+ years after the completion of the GH program.

Estimations:
GH1 program complete 2014.
GH2 program complete 2016.
First possible RTLS test 2017/2018.

So yes a 2018 flight of a light payload would be a oportunity to test a fully fuctional RTLS 1st stage.

Or they could get lucky and have the 1st V1.1 hovering over the ocean next month and in the process skip 3 years of estimated development.          ...........not likely.

At this point, we're just guessing about that -- a month from now, we'll know.    :)

Offline oldAtlas_Eguy

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - SARah - 2018
« Reply #29 on: 09/19/2013 09:37 pm »
WAG's are what we have now. 3 years from now maybe not. 8)

5 years ago (2008) SpaceX was still designing their F9.

Offline Lurker Steve

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 v1.1 - SARah - 2018
« Reply #30 on: 09/19/2013 09:44 pm »
Can we get the discussion back to this mission instead of some future launcher that hasn't been designed yet ?

There are other threads to discuss future SpaceX developments. This is supposed to be about SARah .

Offline rockets4life97

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We are now on the cusp of 2018.

Is it possible that all 3 SARah sats will now fly on single F9 Block V?

Or Maybe SARah 1 is a possible co-passenger with PAZ? The look to both be going to SSO. I'm not sure how far apart the intended orbits are.


P.S. Looks like Garrett and Jarnis get credit for predicting in 2013 that SpaceX would successfully RTLS by now.
« Last Edit: 11/11/2017 03:16 pm by rockets4life97 »

Offline russianhalo117

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We are now on the cusp of 2018.

Is it possible that all 3 SARah sats will now fly on single F9 Block V?

Or Maybe SARah 1 is a possible co-passenger with PAZ? The look to both be going to SSO. I'm not sure how far apart the intended orbits are.


P.S. Looks like Garrett and Jarnis get credit for predicting in 2013 that SpaceX would successfully RTLS by now.
no the 3 SARah sats are launching to 2 different planes.

Offline su27k

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We are now on the cusp of 2018.

Is it possible that all 3 SARah sats will now fly on single F9 Block V?

Or Maybe SARah 1 is a possible co-passenger with PAZ? The look to both be going to SSO. I'm not sure how far apart the intended orbits are.

I don't buy fatjohn1408's hypothesis that the two launches are sold at F1 price, what Astrium had was an option, not an actual contract, it makes no sense for SpaceX to allow someone buy F9 at F1 price just because they had a F1 option from a few years ago.

If the two launches were sold at F9's regular price, then there's no incentive for SpaceX to merge them into one launch, why fly one when you can fly two at twice the price?

Quote
P.S. Looks like Garrett and Jarnis get credit for predicting in 2013 that SpaceX would successfully RTLS by now.

It's also really cool to see SpaceX exceeded some of the forum's expectations from 2013.

Offline faramund

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We are now on the cusp of 2018.

Is it possible that all 3 SARah sats will now fly on single F9 Block V?

Or Maybe SARah 1 is a possible co-passenger with PAZ? The look to both be going to SSO. I'm not sure how far apart the intended orbits are.

I don't buy fatjohn1408's hypothesis that the two launches are sold at F1 price, what Astrium had was an option, not an actual contract, it makes no sense for SpaceX to allow someone buy F9 at F1 price just because they had a F1 option from a few years ago.

If the two launches were sold at F9's regular price, then there's no incentive for SpaceX to merge them into one launch, why fly one when you can fly two at twice the price?

Quote
P.S. Looks like Garrett and Jarnis get credit for predicting in 2013 that SpaceX would successfully RTLS by now.

It's also really cool to see SpaceX exceeded some of the forum's expectations from 2013.

Wouldn't this depend on the contract.

If it was, pay $1 now, and then you have the option of paying $9 later, and then you can have X, then the seller has a strong legal obligation to provide X. This sort of option occurs in financial markets - and a seller can't take the $1 and then later on say, oh no, you can't have X now - even if they give back the $1.

Online deruch

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We are now on the cusp of 2018.

Is it possible that all 3 SARah sats will now fly on single F9 Block V?

Or Maybe SARah 1 is a possible co-passenger with PAZ? The look to both be going to SSO. I'm not sure how far apart the intended orbits are.

I don't buy fatjohn1408's hypothesis that the two launches are sold at F1 price, what Astrium had was an option, not an actual contract, it makes no sense for SpaceX to allow someone buy F9 at F1 price just because they had a F1 option from a few years ago.

If the two launches were sold at F9's regular price, then there's no incentive for SpaceX to merge them into one launch, why fly one when you can fly two at twice the price?

It doesn't matter either way.  SpaceX can afford to take an effective loss on a few underpriced launches without any real harm being done to them.  Loss leaders are a well known/accepted part of many sales strategies.  The value of expanding into launches with European govt. clients is potentially worth more than any revenue shortfall, assuming there actually is one.  In my purely speculative guessing opinion, the most likely contract modification is that Astrium got a biggish discount (~15M-20M spread across both launches) on the launches but not a 1-to-1 price swap in the move to the bigger vehicle. 
Shouldn't reality posts be in "Advanced concepts"?  --Nomadd

Offline PM3

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Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : SARah 1 : 2019 : Vandenberg
« Reply #36 on: 02/08/2019 03:39 pm »
Now NET November 2020: http://dipbt.bundestag.de/dip21/btd/19/072/1907253.pdf

"Die Satelliten werden voraussichtlich im Zeitraum November 2020 bis September
2021 in die Umlaufbahn gebracht" -- The satellites will presumably brought to orbit in the timespan of November 2020 to September 2021.

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