Author Topic: XCOR and the Lynx rocket  (Read 492028 times)

Online ChrisWilson68

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Re: XCOR and the Lynx rocket
« Reply #1280 on: 01/04/2019 12:43 am »
From the article, a quote from someone who paid $100,000 for a ticket in 2008:

Quote
There was never any doubt in our minds … any inkling that there was a problem within the company.

I'm sorry, but that is simply foolish.

There were always plenty of signs that buying a ticket from Xcor was highly risky.  If people know the risks and make the bet anyway, fine, that's their choice.  But to have someone pay $100,000 for something this risky and then say "never any doubt in our minds" -- well, that's someone who didn't do even the simplest of due diligence.

It's sad because the article goes through the stories of several ticket buyers for whom that $100,000 was a lot of money.

I have to think that if Xcor or its agents were accepting $100,000 from someone and that person doesn't understand that there's a high risk that they will lose their money and never fly, then that rises to the level of fraud by the person who sold the ticket.
If $100,000 was a lot of money to someone, then they simply should not have bought a ticket.  The same can be said for someone who goes to Las Vegas and gambles away their life savings, don't do it if you can't afford to lose it.  It's just like venture capital deals, if you can't afford to do it, don't do it.  If flying into space was that important, but also that financially stressful; wait until the company is actually flying passengers before buying a ticket.  You can't always protect people from their own bad decisions.  I know I've made some and I accept the results and the responsibility for them.

If someone takes money from another person and the person paying doesn't realize it's risky, that's not just the buyer's bad decision, that's fraud on the part of the person doing the selling.

That's not just my opinion.  That's U.S. law.

Offline Eric Hedman

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Re: XCOR and the Lynx rocket
« Reply #1281 on: 01/04/2019 04:55 am »
From the article, a quote from someone who paid $100,000 for a ticket in 2008:

Quote
There was never any doubt in our minds … any inkling that there was a problem within the company.

I'm sorry, but that is simply foolish.

There were always plenty of signs that buying a ticket from Xcor was highly risky.  If people know the risks and make the bet anyway, fine, that's their choice.  But to have someone pay $100,000 for something this risky and then say "never any doubt in our minds" -- well, that's someone who didn't do even the simplest of due diligence.

It's sad because the article goes through the stories of several ticket buyers for whom that $100,000 was a lot of money.

I have to think that if Xcor or its agents were accepting $100,000 from someone and that person doesn't understand that there's a high risk that they will lose their money and never fly, then that rises to the level of fraud by the person who sold the ticket.
If $100,000 was a lot of money to someone, then they simply should not have bought a ticket.  The same can be said for someone who goes to Las Vegas and gambles away their life savings, don't do it if you can't afford to lose it.  It's just like venture capital deals, if you can't afford to do it, don't do it.  If flying into space was that important, but also that financially stressful; wait until the company is actually flying passengers before buying a ticket.  You can't always protect people from their own bad decisions.  I know I've made some and I accept the results and the responsibility for them.

If someone takes money from another person and the person paying doesn't realize it's risky, that's not just the buyer's bad decision, that's fraud on the part of the person doing the selling.

That's not just my opinion.  That's U.S. law.
You have to have been born yesterday to not understand that this was risky.

Online ChrisWilson68

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Re: XCOR and the Lynx rocket
« Reply #1282 on: 01/04/2019 07:47 am »
From the article, a quote from someone who paid $100,000 for a ticket in 2008:

Quote
There was never any doubt in our minds … any inkling that there was a problem within the company.

I'm sorry, but that is simply foolish.

There were always plenty of signs that buying a ticket from Xcor was highly risky.  If people know the risks and make the bet anyway, fine, that's their choice.  But to have someone pay $100,000 for something this risky and then say "never any doubt in our minds" -- well, that's someone who didn't do even the simplest of due diligence.

It's sad because the article goes through the stories of several ticket buyers for whom that $100,000 was a lot of money.

I have to think that if Xcor or its agents were accepting $100,000 from someone and that person doesn't understand that there's a high risk that they will lose their money and never fly, then that rises to the level of fraud by the person who sold the ticket.
If $100,000 was a lot of money to someone, then they simply should not have bought a ticket.  The same can be said for someone who goes to Las Vegas and gambles away their life savings, don't do it if you can't afford to lose it.  It's just like venture capital deals, if you can't afford to do it, don't do it.  If flying into space was that important, but also that financially stressful; wait until the company is actually flying passengers before buying a ticket.  You can't always protect people from their own bad decisions.  I know I've made some and I accept the results and the responsibility for them.

If someone takes money from another person and the person paying doesn't realize it's risky, that's not just the buyer's bad decision, that's fraud on the part of the person doing the selling.

That's not just my opinion.  That's U.S. law.
You have to have been born yesterday to not understand that this was risky.

I agree.  And yet we have the quote from the article, from someone who paid $100,000: "There was never any doubt in our minds".

There are a lot of people out there who are incredibly ignorant.  And XCOR's press releases were very rosy-sounding and made no mention of any risks.  They talked about those flights as if they were certain to happen.

Offline niwax

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Re: XCOR and the Lynx rocket
« Reply #1283 on: 01/04/2019 08:41 am »
From the article, a quote from someone who paid $100,000 for a ticket in 2008:

Quote
There was never any doubt in our minds … any inkling that there was a problem within the company.

I'm sorry, but that is simply foolish.

There were always plenty of signs that buying a ticket from Xcor was highly risky.  If people know the risks and make the bet anyway, fine, that's their choice.  But to have someone pay $100,000 for something this risky and then say "never any doubt in our minds" -- well, that's someone who didn't do even the simplest of due diligence.

It's sad because the article goes through the stories of several ticket buyers for whom that $100,000 was a lot of money.

I have to think that if Xcor or its agents were accepting $100,000 from someone and that person doesn't understand that there's a high risk that they will lose their money and never fly, then that rises to the level of fraud by the person who sold the ticket.
If $100,000 was a lot of money to someone, then they simply should not have bought a ticket.  The same can be said for someone who goes to Las Vegas and gambles away their life savings, don't do it if you can't afford to lose it.  It's just like venture capital deals, if you can't afford to do it, don't do it.  If flying into space was that important, but also that financially stressful; wait until the company is actually flying passengers before buying a ticket.  You can't always protect people from their own bad decisions.  I know I've made some and I accept the results and the responsibility for them.

If someone takes money from another person and the person paying doesn't realize it's risky, that's not just the buyer's bad decision, that's fraud on the part of the person doing the selling.

That's not just my opinion.  That's U.S. law.
You have to have been born yesterday to not understand that this was risky.

I agree.  And yet we have the quote from the article, from someone who paid $100,000: "There was never any doubt in our minds".

There are a lot of people out there who are incredibly ignorant.  And XCOR's press releases were very rosy-sounding and made no mention of any risks.  They talked about those flights as if they were certain to happen.

Remember this is a forum full of rocket enthusiasts. The general public sees Branson on TV talking about how he's about half an hour away from daily tourist flights and the odd documentary about any one of the other startups. Couple that with a persuasive salesperson and I don't doubt reasonably informed and intelligent people would fall for this.
It's not like someone launching their satellite on Falcon 1 or Maezawas tourist flight operated on different timescales or lower risk when viewed by an outsider, the subtle differences only come out of analysis by very knowledgeable people and even they are wrong a lot of the time.
Which booster has the most soot? SpaceX booster launch history! (discussion)

Offline Lars-J

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Re: XCOR and the Lynx rocket
« Reply #1284 on: 01/04/2019 04:16 pm »
You are missing the point. Sure due diligence should be expected from a customer for something like this. No one disagrees with that.

But if the salesperson representing XCOR (or XCOR investors) did not explicitly express that there was risk involved, they ALSO failed in their duty.

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: XCOR and the Lynx rocket
« Reply #1285 on: 01/04/2019 04:25 pm »
You are missing the point. Sure due diligence should be expected from a customer for something like this. No one disagrees with that.

But if the salesperson representing XCOR (or XCOR investors) did not explicitly express that there was risk involved, they ALSO failed in their duty.

1. No one that couldn't afford to lose $95,000 should have bought a ticket.

2. No one should have expected that this was going to be a safe tourist experience.

3. No one should have been surprised when everyone trying to offer this type of service was late.

4. If they didn't ask for their money back in 2012, or 2013, or 2014, or 2015... you see where I'm going with this.

I'm not crying for the people that lost their money. They probably have spent more on trips to sports games where their preferred team lost, so everything is relative...
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Online ChrisWilson68

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Re: XCOR and the Lynx rocket
« Reply #1286 on: 01/04/2019 04:59 pm »
You are missing the point. Sure due diligence should be expected from a customer for something like this. No one disagrees with that.

But if the salesperson representing XCOR (or XCOR investors) did not explicitly express that there was risk involved, they ALSO failed in their duty.

1. No one that couldn't afford to lose $95,000 should have bought a ticket.

2. No one should have expected that this was going to be a safe tourist experience.

3. No one should have been surprised when everyone trying to offer this type of service was late.

4. If they didn't ask for their money back in 2012, or 2013, or 2014, or 2015... you see where I'm going with this.

I'm not crying for the people that lost their money. They probably have spent more on trips to sports games where their preferred team lost, so everything is relative...

I agree that people shouldn't have bought a ticket if they weren't ready to lose their money.

People also shouldn't send their bank information to someone from Nigeria who needs it to transfer $7.3 million into their account.

But that doesn't mean the Nigerian who scammed that person isn't guilty of fraud.

Just because someone is gullible and willing to make a bad choice doesn't get the person taking their money off the hook.  If the person taking the money was really completely upfront about it and emphasized that it was risky and they could lose their money, then there's no fraud.  It's on the person who spent the money.  But if that person was mislead by the person taking the money, that's fraud, by US law.

We don't know what these people who bought the flights were told in private.  All we know is that they are now saying that they didn't think there was any risk.  We also know that XCOR's public statements were misleading in the way they didn't mention any risk and made it sound like the flights would definitely happen.

Offline Eric Hedman

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Re: XCOR and the Lynx rocket
« Reply #1287 on: 01/04/2019 05:23 pm »
You are missing the point. Sure due diligence should be expected from a customer for something like this. No one disagrees with that.

But if the salesperson representing XCOR (or XCOR investors) did not explicitly express that there was risk involved, they ALSO failed in their duty.
What I'm wondering is if the people buying a ticket had to sign a sales contract that covered anything about the risk.  What the big print gives, the fine print takes away.  And unless there was intentional fraud by the investors, they should be and are shielded by corporate liability laws.  If the investors weren't shielded nobody in their right mind would invest in anything.

If some one is suing and the corporation has no assets, the only ones who will profit are the attorneys who will take the case who are charging hourly and not a contingency fee.  Their clients are going to be taken twice.

Online ChrisWilson68

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Re: XCOR and the Lynx rocket
« Reply #1288 on: 01/04/2019 06:28 pm »
You are missing the point. Sure due diligence should be expected from a customer for something like this. No one disagrees with that.

But if the salesperson representing XCOR (or XCOR investors) did not explicitly express that there was risk involved, they ALSO failed in their duty.
What I'm wondering is if the people buying a ticket had to sign a sales contract that covered anything about the risk.  What the big print gives, the fine print takes away.  And unless there was intentional fraud by the investors, they should be and are shielded by corporate liability laws.  If the investors weren't shielded nobody in their right mind would invest in anything.

If some one is suing and the corporation has no assets, the only ones who will profit are the attorneys who will take the case who are charging hourly and not a contingency fee.  Their clients are going to be taken twice.

Nobody said the corporation has no assets.

XCOR clearly had some physical assets.  Chapter 7 liquidation doesn't mean there are no assets.  In Chapter 7 usually the investors get nothing, but in some cases there are enough assets to satisfy all the creditors and divide the rest among the investors.  The question is when they divide up the assets of XCOR do the ticket holders get a share or does it all go to other creditors and/or investors.

If money was distributed to investors at all in the past, the ticket holders could file clawback lawsuits to get that money back from investors.

Also, the XCOR corporation and its investors aren't the only potential targets of lawsuits.  Individuals involved in making the sales could be personally liable.  Also, I remember that XCOR had deals with various companies to sell tickets -- high-end travel agencies and the like.  Those agencies could be liable.  Also XCOR execs could be held personally liable.  Just look at individuals within Volkswagen who are being held personally liable both criminally and civilly for actions they took or didn't take with respect to the fraud there.

Online ChrisWilson68

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Re: XCOR and the Lynx rocket
« Reply #1289 on: 01/04/2019 06:34 pm »
What I'm wondering is if the people buying a ticket had to sign a sales contract that covered anything about the risk.  What the big print gives, the fine print takes away.

Fine print can help the defense against fraud charges, but it isn't a blanket defense.  If someone was otherwise misled, fine print in a contract signed by an unsophisticated individual won't get someone off on fraud charges.  It becomes a matter for the court to decide.  Does the fine print prove that the individual really did understand?  Or is it likely that the individual didn't fully understand the fine print and was swayed by other things the seller said?

It's up to the judge or jury to decide.

Offline Rik ISS-fan

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Re: XCOR and the Lynx rocket
« Reply #1290 on: 01/04/2019 09:49 pm »
I recommend reading the article, it explains vaguely that the sales went via the Netherlands. Most likely just a post-addres company, that's most likely gone now.

In my oppinion XCOR and ruimtevluchtcuracao.nl were really bad for the reputation of the space industry.
[I'm flabbergasted that the website is still online.]

And we had full front page advertisements in a advertising brochure back in 2012. Mediamarkt is a household electronics retailchain.


I'll leave you to judge if it's acceptable to raise funding for a development project via end product sales.
(Early product reservations, 3 examples:
- XCOR with Lynx flights
- Virgin Galactic with spaceship two flights.
- Tesla Motors with all their products.)
And let's not forget MarsONE

Eedit to add:
SXC was the company that saled the flights. SXC was integrated in XCOR in 2014. In 2016 XCOR halted Lynx development.
SXC =Space Expedition Corporation | Space Expedition Curaçao
« Last Edit: 01/04/2019 10:25 pm by Rik ISS-fan »

Offline meekGee

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Re: XCOR and the Lynx rocket
« Reply #1291 on: 01/05/2019 01:38 am »
From the article, a quote from someone who paid $100,000 for a ticket in 2008:

Quote
There was never any doubt in our minds … any inkling that there was a problem within the company.

I'm sorry, but that is simply foolish.

There were always plenty of signs that buying a ticket from Xcor was highly risky.  If people know the risks and make the bet anyway, fine, that's their choice.  But to have someone pay $100,000 for something this risky and then say "never any doubt in our minds" -- well, that's someone who didn't do even the simplest of due diligence.

It's sad because the article goes through the stories of several ticket buyers for whom that $100,000 was a lot of money.

I have to think that if Xcor or its agents were accepting $100,000 from someone and that person doesn't understand that there's a high risk that they will lose their money and never fly, then that rises to the level of fraud by the person who sold the ticket.
If $100,000 was a lot of money to someone, then they simply should not have bought a ticket.  The same can be said for someone who goes to Las Vegas and gambles away their life savings, don't do it if you can't afford to lose it.  It's just like venture capital deals, if you can't afford to do it, don't do it.  If flying into space was that important, but also that financially stressful; wait until the company is actually flying passengers before buying a ticket.  You can't always protect people from their own bad decisions.  I know I've made some and I accept the results and the responsibility for them.

If someone takes money from another person and the person paying doesn't realize it's risky, that's not just the buyer's bad decision, that's fraud on the part of the person doing the selling.

That's not just my opinion.  That's U.S. law.
You have to have been born yesterday to not understand that this was risky.

I agree.  And yet we have the quote from the article, from someone who paid $100,000: "There was never any doubt in our minds".

There are a lot of people out there who are incredibly ignorant.  And XCOR's press releases were very rosy-sounding and made no mention of any risks.  They talked about those flights as if they were certain to happen.
Nevermind chance to lose $100,000...  What about the chance to lose your life?

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Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: XCOR and the Lynx rocket
« Reply #1292 on: 01/05/2019 01:56 am »
Fine print can help the defense against fraud charges, but it isn't a blanket defense.

Nothing is a blanket defense, but I would imagine each person leaving a deposit had to sign many places on the contract, and each signature or initial would be further proof that the buyer was aware of the risks.

Quote
If someone was otherwise misled, fine print in a contract signed by an unsophisticated individual...

In general, people that have $95,000 to spend on an untried, unproven, and obviously risky entertainment ride - and can wait for years for it to be made operational - can't be described as "unsophisticated".

Quote
It's up to the judge or jury to decide.

I'd be surprised if anyone did sue, since the likelihood of success would be rather low. At some point people have to be responsible for their own actions, and I know I'd do a lot of due diligence if I was going to spend $95,000...
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Online ChrisWilson68

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Re: XCOR and the Lynx rocket
« Reply #1293 on: 01/05/2019 07:48 am »
Quote
If someone was otherwise misled, fine print in a contract signed by an unsophisticated individual...

In general, people that have $95,000 to spend on an untried, unproven, and obviously risky entertainment ride - and can wait for years for it to be made operational - can't be described as "unsophisticated".

It's right there in the article.  They give details about some of these people.

Quote
Jones, a commercial pilot who lives in Tulsa, Okla., said scraping together the money for the Xcor ticket was a sacrifice.  "I live in an apartment.  I don't drive the newest car," he said.  "That's a lot of money.  You're talking kids' college or buying a house."

Quote
He purchased his Xcor ticket using a significant amount of funds reaped from the sale of his social media marketing agency.

Quote
Ticket holder Milan Karki, 41, did receive $34,500 from the escrow account. [...] He's using the funds to buy property for his parents in their homeland of Nepal.

I'm not sure why it's so hard for people to believe that there are unsophisticated individuals who have $100,000 but for whom that is a very major amount of money, and the losing it has very significant effects on their lives.

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: XCOR and the Lynx rocket
« Reply #1294 on: 01/05/2019 10:38 am »
The thing that surprises me is not buying the $100,000 ticket but spending more than $10,000 on a deposit.

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