NASASpaceFlight.com Forum
International Space Flight (ESA, Russia, China and others) => Indian Launchers => Topic started by: Chris Bergin on 05/09/2007 02:53 pm
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http://www.ibnlive.com/news/manned-mission-to-moon-in-8-yrs-govt/40086-11.html
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Looks like they're on about the same time schedule. Anyone have any odds on India beating Orion into orbit?
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Well they will if they manage it in eight years. Question is IF they can do it within 8 years.
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Am I the only one who does not understand the title of of the article?
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imfan - 9/5/2007 4:54 PM
Am I the only one who does not understand the title of of the article?
Maybe, nothing wrong with the headline, but it's misleading when you read the article.
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imfan - 9/5/2007 9:54 AM
Am I the only one who does not understand the title of of the article?
It's easy if you speak journalese (Indian journalese, an intriguing dialect). There's a manned miision proposed, that isn't sanctioned by government, is not to the moon, with an eight-year timescale that hasn't started. I think the mission is to space, presumably LEO, but it may in fact be to the grocery store. Stay tuned.
Anyone know what crore is, as in Rs 9500 crore? Speculation: a million. At about 40R/$ that would be a $250m manned space shot... very cheap for the first trip.
Aha. Wikipedia tells me a crore is 10 million, in India at least. So the manned program cost estimate is about $2.5bn.
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Nice to know that there will be a curry restaurant waiting for when NASA gets there.
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cz77 - 9/5/2007 3:18 PM
Nice to know that there will be a curry restaurant waiting for when NASA gets there.
Are you a pessamist or a realist? :)
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China will beat us both anyway. They've been silent of late.
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Chris Bergin - 9/5/2007 6:12 PM
imfan - 9/5/2007 4:54 PM
Am I the only one who does not understand the title of of the article?
Maybe, nothing wrong with the headline, but it's misleading when you read the article.
Very misleading indeed... Getting a man on the moon within 8 years would be more ambitious than the US in 61, since all India has today is a not-efficient-yet GEO launcher.
Now I keep hearing India has big plans for manned space exploration, and I can't wait for them to communicate more on that, because most of what I've heard so far is rather vague or projecting very far in the future. But if a gaganaut (I really hope they keep this word) is to go to space within 8 years, my wishes should come true !
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I hope the ISRO didn't provide the newspaper with that lunar image. That's not "the Moon"... that's Saturn's moon Enceladus. You can tell right away because of the weird "tiger stripe" scratches to the south from where outgassing of water has been seen going on by the Cassini orbiter.
http://www.mpi-hd.mpg.de/dustgroup/images/Enceladus.jpg
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A crore is 10^7 or 10 million. Rather than going up in multiples of 10^3 as in the west (million (10^3) billion (10^6) trillion (10^9) etc) their systems goes up in 10^2 (crore (10^7) Arawb (10^9) Kharawb (10^11) etc) :)
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RedSky - 9/5/2007 5:06 PM
I hope the ISRO didn't provide the newspaper with that lunar image. That's not "the Moon"... that's Saturn's moon Enceladus. You can tell right away because of the weird "tiger stripe" scratches to the south from where outgassing of water has been seen going on by the Cassini orbiter.
A manned mission to Enceladus must be next for the Indians after they tackle Earth's moon. If the extraordinarily ambitious timetable inferred from title of the above article is to be believed, India should put a man on Enceladus by about 2020. ;)
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It seems entirely possible, perhaps probable, that the next manned space race won't be US vs. Russia or US vs. China but India vs. China. Given each countries idiosyncratic press it should make for some interesting reading. :D
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Norm Hartnett - 10/5/2007 11:06 AM
It seems entirely possible, perhaps probable, that the next manned space race won't be US vs. Russia or US vs. China but India vs. China. Given each countries idiosyncratic press it should make for some interesting reading. :D
Ding ... Ding ... Ding ... We have a winner. The two largest 'state' populations, growing in economic strength, looking for ways to inspire national pride and to gain respect in the industrial world ...
I guess I'm more than a little egocentric believing that the US will be involved in the next space race, but Norm ... I believe you might be correct.
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Sorry for resurrecting this topic by the Indian press seems to be buzzing lately about a manned lunar mission by 2015 in the wake of the successful launch of Chandrayaan-1. It this even technically feasible given the most optimistic projection?
http://www.space-travel.com/reports/ISRO_Eyes_Manned_Moon_Mission_By_2015_999.html
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/3627628.cms
http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1196305
http://www.business-standard.com/india/storypage.php?autono=338170
India likely won't achieve manned spaceflight capability until 2015 assuming that everything goes well. It seems more apt for India to be in a race with not China but a commercial US company to develop manned capability and eventually manned lunar missions. Though fears of the Chinese beating us back to the Moon are clearly overblown and misinformed, India achieving this feat so soon seems to be a mere pipe dream.
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With the govt yet to approve India's manned mission, all timelines should be taken with a sackful of salt. I would imagine these are aspirational timelines.
See article below for status on government approval
http://www.indianexpress.com/story_print.php?storyid=378611
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They have a lot to do before they can reach the moon but so does China.
1. They need to first put people in LEO and recover them safely.
2. Show they can perform rendezvous and docking.
3. Design an EVA suit or purchase one and demonstrate a few EVAs.
4. Fly an LV with an EELV class payload or better yet an HLV with 50 to 70T being desirable targets.
5. If they don't go the HLV route demonstrate they launch can EELV class vehicle once every few months and construct propellant depots and perform LEO assembly.
China has managed number 1 and the first part of 3.
The GSLV is no where near powerful enough for the job it's barely powerful enough to launch a Gemini type mission which can only demonstrate goals 1, 2, and 3 but not 4 or 5.
The GSLVIII just might be able to pull it off in the 20T configuration of course this means no vehicles like Orion or landers like the LSAM even the Apollo LEM might be too heavy when you consider it has to be sent to TLI.
The Apollo LEM is light enough that GSLV III can lift it into LEO and a modern version would likely weigh even less then 14.5MT but the EDS to send it to the moon is probably going to be heavier then 20T.
So their mission might be more along the lines of something like the Langley light lander for their LM and maybe a vehicle like a modernized Gemini with a docking tunnel and habitation module or something similar to Spacex's Dragon for the mother ship.
Though if they use storable propellants for the EDS or can demonstrate two or more launches in very short secession then they could either fuel the EDS in orbit or split the EDS in two launching the fuel and oxidizer tanks separately.
This would eliminate the the TLI payload bottle neck caused by being stuck with a 20T EDS and allow for even an Apollo class lunar mission.
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Of course they might decide to do a 'Zond' style free return trajectory first. Despite the 'stunt' objections that would follow, that might fulfill the political ambitions of 'going to the moon with humans' without a lot of the cost, and it would be safer.
China, obviously is well ahead in this endeavor.
P
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The actual statement appears to refer to a first Indian manned flight by 2015. Not a manned lunar flight by that time.
A manned flight by 2015 seems like a very reasonable goal to me. A lunar mission in that time is obviously unrealistic, and almost certainly the product of reporters imaginations.
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A manned flight by 2015 seems like a very reasonable goal to me. A lunar mission in that time is obviously unrealistic, and almost certainly the product of reporters imaginations.
It sure is realistic if you are willing to spend like Apollo.
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I won't hold my breath because of this piece of news
1) India has yet to perform a manned mission
2) launch rate of India is relatively very low
3) they lack a LV with enough launch capacity
I would say India has a long way to go before sending people to moon
the situation of China is much better as they have gained some valuable experience
of performing manned mission (designing all those life support systems, etc)
The problem with China is, again, they don't have a launch vehicle capable of doing this
most of the LM series have ~<10t to LEO, even the LM5 in development
has the capacity of ~20-25t to LEO, using LM5 for lunar mission
will require fair amount of on-orbit assembly(maybe 5/6 launches)
the mass of the EDS and LAM will be significant
manned mission to moon requires significant amount of investment
the political will to do so is dobtable
remember even Russia hasn't demonstrated a manned lunar mission yet
although we know they have the technical know-how to do so
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It sure is realistic if you are willing to spend like Apollo.
That assumes India has the option of Apollo level spending. They don't. So no, it's not realistic at all.
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It sure is realistic if you are willing to spend like Apollo.
That assumes India has the option of Apollo level spending. They don't. So no, it's not realistic at all.
It doesn't have to be an Apollo type mission nor do they have to invent everything as with Apollo.
You don't absolutely need a 14.5ton Lander, 5ton reentry vehicle and 17 ton service module.
With a Soyuz type vehicle the mother ship can be half the mass of an Apollo type vehicle.
They could accomplish this using just an EELV class LV which GSLV III is supposed to be.
http://www.astronautix.com/articles/bygemoon.htm
Worst case they could buy some rides on Falcon 9-H for the heaviest parts since they would be cheap enough for ISRO and can lift 30Tons.
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They are already getting flack internally for the cost of Chandrayaan-I.
The current government hasn't approved any manned program at all, and hasn't made space exploration a central part of their platform. Chandrayaan-I is their first major mission dedicated to space exploration for it's own sake.
The head of ISRO suggested a first Indian manned orbital flight by 2015, not a lunar mission. The "manned lunar flight by 2015" nonsense appears to be purely a product of shoddy reporting with zero basis in official plans or policy.
India is democracy, whose recent governments have been formed by fragile coalitions. Massive spending on non-essential projects is hard to get approved in this environment, especially when a large portion of those in government get keep their seats by bringing funding to their impoverished constituencies.
Even for countries that don't have hundreds of millions living in abject poverty, the current economic climate is not conducive to lavish spending on gestures.
The claim that you can get to the moon in less time than Apollo, for vastly less money, without any human spaceflight experience is not justified by any evidence. Even if you could do it for a tenth of the cost of Apollo, it would be an unrealistically large chunk of the Indian budget.
In the real world, an Indian manned lunar mission by 2015 is complete nonsense.
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Even though India will not send man to moon in 8 years, ISRO's plan still very ambitious.
"we will be exploring the prospects of landing an Indian on moon by at least 2020"
IMHO, I don't think India can accomplish it by 2020, unless NASA share technologies with ISRO.
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http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20081027&fname=ISRO&sid=2&pn=2
An recent interview with the head of the ISRO himself. Notable excerpts:
How do you handle criticism from a section of the people that a poor nation like India shouldn't be wasting money on projects like Chandrayaan?
We have faced this question in the early phase of the programme. We are convinced that we are doing more service to the society than the money spent on the programme. But to doubly assure ourselves, we asked a school of economics in Chennai a couple of years back to make an assessment. The report they submitted was really mind-boggling. They found that what we have given back to the society in terms of products and services is something like one and half times more than the cumulative investment made on the entire space programme. Leave alone the infrastructure, the technology, the human resources and the various laboratories we have developed, if we add all that it is certainly more than five times spent on the programme.
How do you compare India with China?
Compared to China we are better off in many areas. For example our communication satellites are world class. Chinese still depend on some foreign companies to supply some components. On launchers, we have very advanced capability. As far as manned-mission is concerned we are lagging behind, but that was a conscious decision on our part. Since it involves a lot of funds, in the initial phase of the moon programme we have not given thrust to that area. But given the funds and necessary approvals we can easily catch up with our neighbour in this area.
When will India put a man on moon?
We have a dream to put a man on moon with our own vehicle system by 2015.
Looks like it's not just the Indian press/public but also ISRO that have very lofty ambitions. ::)
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I think this is very unrealistic for India.
Personally, I don't see why they're spending millions on launching rockets into space when millions of people there ae homless and starving. They need to sort out their priorities.
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Personally, I don't see why they're spending millions on launching rockets into space when millions of people there ae homless and starving. They need to sort out their priorities.
Ahh, it's the old "don't go into space, feed the hungry instead" line of thinking.
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Trying to get to the moon when they haven't put a man up nor I believe even have a vehicle (correct me if I am wrong) to send a man up in space in the first place. They're going to have a tight schedule, tighter than Apollo.
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IMHO, I don't think India can accomplish it by 2020, unless NASA share technologies with ISRO.
They can always buy stuff from Russia, which would be faster, better and cheaper than sharing technologies with NASA.
India and Russia held discussions here on possibility of cooperation in space exploration, including missions to the moon and Mars. General Anatoly Perminov, Head of the Federal Space Agency, Russia met Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) Chairman G Madhavan Nair on the sidelines of the 58th International Astronautical Congress (IAC) here. "Discussions are on for possible cooperation with ISRO on missions to the moon and Mars," Perminov said.
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/India_And_Russia_Discuss_Space_Cooperation_999.html
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They can always buy stuff from Russia, which would be faster, better and cheaper than sharing technologies with NASA.
The article didn't explain the cooperation is send a rover or a man to moon.
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Personally, I don't see why they're spending millions on launching rockets into space when millions of people there ae homless and starving. They need to sort out their priorities.
Ahh, it's the old "don't go into space, feed the hungry instad" line of thinking.
Yes, but poverty is a significant issue in India. The US is very well-off so it's never really been taken into account (from my knowledge)
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Personally, I don't see why they're spending millions on launching rockets into space when millions of people there ae homless and starving. They need to sort out their priorities.
Ahh, it's the old "don't go into space, feed the hungry instad" line of thinking.
Didn't Walter Mondale say something similar regarding Apollo?
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Personally, I don't see why they're spending millions on launching rockets into space when millions of people there ae homless and starving. They need to sort out their priorities.
Ahh, it's the old "don't go into space, feed the hungry instead" line of thinking.
A balance needs to be struck. Developing high tech industry and getting people into science and engineering is an essential part of solving poverty. You could argue there are better or worse ways to do it than space exploration, but it has to be done somehow. OTOH, spending tens of billions sending humans to the moon would be quite hard to justify at this point.
It's worth pointing out that most of the Indian space program directly serves other national interests. The ability to independently build, launch and operate remote observation satellites is a major contribution to national security, in addition to the more frequently promoted benefits to things like disaster management. Large solid fuel rocket technology is also a significant contribution to national defense.
Chandrayaan-I has less direct benefit, but is relatively affordable because it builds on those capabilities.
As for the quote from Nair, notice he said "a dream". There are numerous quotes from ISRO stating that, pending government approval, they are planning a first manned flight to LEO in 2015. NOT a lunar flight. Some examples
http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=617175
A project report on the human space flight is ready and is awaiting final approval from the government, SHAR Director M P Dathan said.
For the proposed human space flight (manned mission) programme, Dathan said there will be a new launchpad--the third--at Sriharikota.
Dathan said the indigenously built geosynchronous launch vehicle will be upgraded to undertake this mission. According to ISRO officials,this human space flight is expected in 2015
http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20081027&fname=ISRO&sid=3
When will an Indian actually set foot on the moon? By current timelines, around 2025. But an Indian will be in earth’s orbit, about 300 km from here, ten years before that. "We will send a man to space with our own vehicle system by 2015," said ISRO chairman G. Madhavan Nair.
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How do you compare India with China?
Compared to China we are better off in many areas. For example our communication satellites are world class. Chinese still depend on some foreign companies to supply some components. On launchers, we have very advanced capability. As far as manned-mission is concerned we are lagging behind, but that was a conscious decision on our part. Since it involves a lot of funds, in the initial phase of the moon programme we have not given thrust to that area. But given the funds and necessary approvals we can easily catch up with our neighbour in this area.
I thought India is better than China in Remote Sensing Satellites. I don't know India's communication satellites is also better. Can someone give more detail comparation.
About launchers, I know China's LM rockets have a better record. So what "very advanced capability" make Indian rockets better than Chinese rockets ?
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I would like to correct that that India will launch an orbital manned flight in 2015! The space craft design has been finalized and it will weigh at 4 tons! Construction will begin by mid-2009 after govt approves it!
This will eventually be replaced by the next generation vehicle in 2018 or somethin ! hERE IS HOW orbital vehicle will look like- its the official image of ISRO-
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any news or updates of India manned space flight?
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See here http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=19740.0