Post by: thescent on 01/16/2018 04:34 pm
Being a German I know nothing of government shutdowns. :)
So I am scratching my head if a shutdown, should it occur this friday, would stop KSC launch operations and with that any FH WDR/SF/launch attempt?
And am I right to assume that a shutdown would not impact any CCAFB operations, since military staff is considered "essential"?
;) liver
Post by: Lar on 01/16/2018 07:52 pm
Welcome to NSF.
Post by: JohnR on 01/16/2018 08:47 pm
Essentially, uniformed personnel reduced to 1/4 and unable to launch with that small a workforce.
https://www.floridatoday.com/story/tech/science/space/2017/12/01/us-air-force-budget-uncertainty-threatens-cape-canaveral-florida-rocket-launch-rate-nasa-spacex-ula/902868001/
Post by: ChrisGebhardt on 01/17/2018 03:20 pm
Pardon me for posting a rather "boring politics thing" as my first ever post here, but...
Being a German I know nothing of government shutdowns. :)
So I am scratching my head if a shutdown, should it occur this friday, would stop KSC launch operations and with that any FH WDR/SF/launch attempt?
And am I right to assume that a shutdown would not impact any CCAFB operations, since military staff is considered "essential"?
;) liver
Operations deemed essential to national security or of significant and unrecoverable monetary investment would continue. If a launch in that timeframe - i.e., SBIRS on Atlas V - were to find itself slipping to a day when the government was shutdown, and that mission was deemed necessary for national security, it would still be launched. Employees at the Range (45th space wing military) would work the launch with deferred pay.
Likewise, if certain national security payloads were/are in processing, or payloads of high monetary value and a specific short launch window (like interplanetary missions) are in processing, they might receive waivers to continue processing. Again, those performing that processing, if government employees, would work with deferred pay (and not necessarily with guarantee of back-pay -- that has to be approved by Congress, which they usually do). An example of this was MAVEN in 2013, which was in final processing for a launch in November 2013 when the October 2013 government shutdown occurred. MAVEN had a very short launch window to get to Mars, and missing that window would have coast the US government more money than desired. So MAVEN received a waiver and continued processing through the shutdown and launched in November.
EDIT: In this case, if we do have a government shutdown at 23:59:59 EST on Friday night, InSight might receive such a waiver to continue processing toward it's short interplanetary launch window in May. Depends on how much contingency time is currently in InSight's current schedule.
Post by: Lar on 01/21/2018 01:01 am
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 01/21/2018 01:38 pm
Stick to impacts, and skip the overtly political critiques that are generic. Post removed.Please Lar, when talking about launch testing we try to avoid words such as, “impacts”...
Post by: Lar on 01/21/2018 02:41 pm
Wasn't me that titled the thread! However... point.Stick to impacts, and skip the overtly political critiques that are generic. Post removed.Please Lar, when talking about launch testing we try to avoid words such as, “impacts”...
Post by: Jim on 01/21/2018 05:31 pm
Before anybody asks, it would apply to FAA employees too for commercial ranges.
Post by: Inoeth on 01/21/2018 05:32 pm
These shutdowns last anywhere from a couple days to a couple weeks...
Post by: IanThePineapple on 01/21/2018 05:51 pm
Maybe SpaceX could send in their own people to help out
Post by: Jim on 01/21/2018 06:10 pm
Maybe SpaceX could send in their own people to help out
Just no. Airlines don't mess with air traffic control. Ship crews don't mess with lock operations.
Post by: TorenAltair on 01/21/2018 08:53 pm
Here in Europe it would be possible to file for compensation. Please no lobbying, good or bad politics discussions.
Post by: Lar on 01/21/2018 10:01 pm
I would like to know a bit about US law. Regarding the shutdown, is it possible in the US to sue the state? That is, just assuming for a second that the launch can't take place end of january, is it by law possible for SpaceX and/or SES to file for compensation? Just a few keywords and thoughts: SX might have to pay penalties for delaying launches, could lose new orders, SES could lose customers too, a satellite on the ground doesn't generate revenue etc.
Here in Europe it would be possible to file for compensation. Please no lobbying, good or bad politics discussions.
Might be possible but it's a terrifically bad idea I would think.
SpaceX probably has some Force Majeure clauses in their contracts to protect them from delays that are not their fault.
Post by: wes_wilson on 01/21/2018 10:05 pm
I would like to know a bit about US law. Regarding the shutdown, is it possible in the US to sue the state? That is, just assuming for a second that the launch can't take place end of january, is it by law possible for SpaceX and/or SES to file for compensation? Just a few keywords and thoughts: SX might have to pay penalties for delaying launches, could lose new orders, SES could lose customers too, a satellite on the ground doesn't generate revenue etc.
Here in Europe it would be possible to file for compensation. Please no lobbying, good or bad politics discussions.
It's not impossible, but I think very unlikely. During the last shutdown, courts later ordered payments to some workers who weren't initially paid but I never heard of compensation for less direct matters such as business disruption. Sovereign immunity is one issue, standing (whether you have the right to sue because you are directly affected) is another issue. The pool of litigants could be exceedingly large because practically everyone will be affected to some limited degree, so courts would probably make standing requirements very strict. Should every family who cancels or changes vacation plans because a federal park they were visiting is now closed be allowed to sue?
Much more likely is that SpaceX has standard clauses in their contracts for "force majeure" events such as acts of god, terrorism, and government related delays which eliminate their responsibility for delays caused by these types of events. They'll use their time to focus on other work and get back on track asap.
FWIW, IAAL but don't practice or have experience in this area.
Post by: gongora on 01/21/2018 10:29 pm
Post by: Robotbeat on 01/21/2018 10:45 pm
The range and the Cape use civil servants which will not be working.So would this apply to airports, too? Air travel hasn't stopped, so I fail to see why space travel would necessarily have to stop even for commercial ranges.
Before anybody asks, it would apply to FAA employees too for commercial ranges.
Wasn't the RocketLab flight FAA certified? Yet it still flew.
Post by: Robotbeat on 01/21/2018 11:04 pm
BTW, the cafeteria has NASA-themed names for various items, and furloughs occur often enough that some of the items were named after it...
Post by: rpapo on 01/21/2018 11:12 pm
Wasn't the RocketLab flight FAA certified? Yet it still flew.Does the FAA have jurisdiction in New Zealand? I suspect not...
Post by: Robotbeat on 01/21/2018 11:28 pm
You wouldn't think so, but that's how it worked since RocketLab is, in some legal senses, a US company.Wasn't the RocketLab flight FAA certified? Yet it still flew.Does the FAA have jurisdiction in New Zealand? I suspect not...
EDIT: Here it is from the FAA themselves:
https://twitter.com/faanews/status/938080864063442945
Quote
#FAA has licensed @RocketLab for a Dec. 8 Electron rocket launch. The launch will occur in #NewZealand. #FAASpace 🚀
Post by: kwan3217 on 01/21/2018 11:38 pm
Post by: CameronD on 01/21/2018 11:48 pm
You wouldn't think so, but that's how it worked since RocketLab is, in some legal senses, a US company.Wasn't the RocketLab flight FAA certified? Yet it still flew.Does the FAA have jurisdiction in New Zealand? I suspect not...
EDIT: Here it is from the FAA themselves:
https://twitter.com/faanews/status/938080864063442945Quote#FAA has licensed @RocketLab for a Dec. 8 Electron rocket launch. The launch will occur in #NewZealand. #FAASpace 🚀
Licensing is one thing; but Operations is something else entirely.. and, fortunately, New Zealand airspace is not under the control of the FAA and AFAIK does not require US personnel to operate.
Post by: Rocket Science on 01/21/2018 11:51 pm
Some aviation operations are deemed essential and others are suspended during a shutdown by each agency or department...The range and the Cape use civil servants which will not be working.So would this apply to airports, too? Air travel hasn't stopped, so I fail to see why space travel would necessarily have to stop even for commercial ranges.
Before anybody asks, it would apply to FAA employees too for commercial ranges.
Wasn't the RocketLab flight FAA certified? Yet it still flew.
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/business-aviation/2018-01-17/faa-faces-furloughs-event-government-shutdown
Post by: Robotbeat on 01/21/2018 11:57 pm
Post by: Rocket Science on 01/22/2018 12:10 am
So in other words you just need to determine a way to operate your commercial launch site in another nation or pretend it's air travel and you'll be fine.Some day spaceflight may reach the same level of frequency and necessity and then who knows... ;)
Post by: wardy89 on 01/22/2018 12:37 am
I know we have mainly being discussing this in relation to KSC because of the falcon heavy static fire, but correct me if i am wrong but doesn't it also potentialy stop Blue Origin,virgin orbit, vector ect getting launch licenses for there tests?
Post by: pb2000 on 01/22/2018 12:45 am
We're arguably there frequency side never mind that we still have upcoming Blue origin, small sat launchers and I assume Boca Chica will be on the Eastern range too?So in other words you just need to determine a way to operate your commercial launch site in another nation or pretend it's air travel and you'll be fine.Some day spaceflight may reach the same level of frequency and necessity and then who knows... ;)
Post by: gongora on 01/22/2018 12:50 am
Some day spaceflight may reach the same level of frequency and necessity and then who knows... ;)We're arguably there frequency side...
Aren't there like six orders of magnitude more airplane flights than orbital rocket launches?
Post by: CameronD on 01/22/2018 01:16 am
Some day spaceflight may reach the same level of frequency and necessity and then who knows... ;)We're arguably there frequency side...
Aren't there like six orders of magnitude more airplane flights than orbital rocket launches?
Presumably they're classed as Operational and thus exempt from restrictions? Otherwise.. LOL ;D
Post by: pb2000 on 01/22/2018 01:32 am
It's just a matter of scale. There's an equivalent order of magnitude more infrastructure and people working on air travel, plus or minus some economies of scale and obvious differences between the industries. My point was more to the frequency the (Eastern) range can support; we're already seeing SpaceX and ULA jockeying for range time.Some day spaceflight may reach the same level of frequency and necessity and then who knows... ;)We're arguably there frequency side...
Aren't there like six orders of magnitude more airplane flights than orbital rocket launches?
Post by: Robotbeat on 01/22/2018 01:43 am
Post by: Jim on 01/22/2018 01:46 am
Would it be silly to suggest that this thread get renamed to something along the lines of "The impact of a government shutdown on US private Space companies"
I know we have mainly being discussing this in relation to KSC because of the falcon heavy static fire, but correct me if i am wrong but doesn't it also potentialy stop Blue Origin,virgin orbit, vector ect getting launch licenses for there tests?
it affects more than just US private Space companies
Post by: Jim on 01/22/2018 01:47 am
So in other words you just need to determine a way to operate your commercial launch site in another nation
Nope, still subject to US laws
Post by: Robotbeat on 01/22/2018 02:17 am
And yet Rocket Lab (a US company as far as the FAA is concerned) launched just fine from New Zealand after the shutdown occurred.So in other words you just need to determine a way to operate your commercial launch site in another nation
Nope, still subject to US laws
Post by: docmordrid on 01/22/2018 03:09 am
a vote to interrupt the shutdown has been scheduled for Monday at 1200 hrs Eastern. This would fund the govt through Feb 8, providing time for an extended round of 'Let's Make a Deal.'
Speculation: if push comes to shove, Republicans could drop all but the budget provisions and use Budget Reconciliation to pass it, which only needs 51 votes vs the usual 60. AKA "the nuclear option."
Post by: CameronD on 01/22/2018 03:11 am
And yet Rocket Lab (a US company as far as the FAA is concerned) launched just fine from New Zealand after the shutdown occurred.So in other words you just need to determine a way to operate your commercial launch site in another nation
Nope, still subject to US laws
As posted upthread, fortunately for RocketLab (and the rest of us), New Zealand airspace is not under the control of the FAA... or any other US government body.
Post by: sewebster on 01/22/2018 03:13 am
And yet Rocket Lab (a US company as far as the FAA is concerned) launched just fine from New Zealand after the shutdown occurred.So in other words you just need to determine a way to operate your commercial launch site in another nation
Nope, still subject to US laws
But presumably they already had their license before the shut down?
Post by: Norm38 on 01/22/2018 03:32 am
The US is shut down because the govt is.
So how much to privatize the requirements?
Post by: Robotbeat on 01/22/2018 04:19 am
Indeed, that's what *I* said upthread (which I've now bolded ^^^ ). Tell Jim that.And yet Rocket Lab (a US company as far as the FAA is concerned) launched just fine from New Zealand after the shutdown occurred.So in other words you just need to determine a way to operate your commercial launch site in another nation
Nope, still subject to US laws
As posted upthread, fortunately for RocketLab (and the rest of us), New Zealand airspace is not under the control of the FAA... or any other US government body.
Post by: TorenAltair on 01/22/2018 04:30 am
Post by: CameronD on 01/22/2018 04:54 am
Indeed, that's what *I* said upthread (which I've now bolded ^^^ ). Tell Jim that.And yet Rocket Lab (a US company as far as the FAA is concerned) launched just fine from New Zealand after the shutdown occurred.So in other words you just need to determine a way to operate your commercial launch site in another nation
Nope, still subject to US laws
As posted upthread, fortunately for RocketLab (and the rest of us), New Zealand airspace is not under the control of the FAA... or any other US government body.
I guess I kinda did.. Oops! ;D
..but to be fair, he probably read your statement as referring to "a US Corporation using US range assets operating their commercial launch site off-shore" - which is not strictly the case with RocketLab.
Post by: Jim on 01/22/2018 05:43 am
Post by: Robotbeat on 01/22/2018 05:46 am
Would such a shutdown affect Boca Chica operations in some future point as well? I know that the Eastern Range is responsible for this, but I assume they "only" provide assets like radar and similar stuff for a remote place like Boca Chica. Are those things not manned anyway all the time regardless of a shutdown or not?I suspect this is something that could be negotiated. Could be that there is no current mechanism in place to allow such assets to remain open, but perhaps some sort of agreement could be made, like a separate office in the FAA, or a contractor to run some of the Range assets, etc. (I'm not an expert on this, just pointing out that something probably could be arranged if someone cared enough.)
Post by: docmordrid on 01/22/2018 05:57 am
Rocket Lab is a foreign company that formed a US division.
>
That's exactly backwards.
https://www.rocketlabusa.com/frequently-asked-questions/
Quote
Where is Rocket Lab based?
Rocket Lab is an American company with headquarters in Los Angeles and a wholly-owned New Zealand subsidiary.
Post by: Archibald on 01/22/2018 08:20 am
I suppose that, whereever you launch such a big rocket, you need FAA approval not to run it into an airliner, and since FAA is a government agency... FAA shut down, no rocket launch ?
Post by: chalz on 01/22/2018 08:20 am
Either way the point is moot since it is about their interactions with the US government.
Rocket Lab is a foreign company that formed a US division.
>
That's exactly backwards.
https://www.rocketlabusa.com/frequently-asked-questions/QuoteWhere is Rocket Lab based?
Rocket Lab is an American company with headquarters in Los Angeles and a wholly-owned New Zealand subsidiary.
Do members of the FAA or other agencies have to attend every licensed launch?
If so, is there something different in the funding for those employees when they operate overseas?
Post by: woods170 on 01/22/2018 09:36 am
Would such a shutdown affect Boca Chica operations in some future point as well? I know that the Eastern Range is responsible for this, but I assume they "only" provide assets like radar and similar stuff for a remote place like Boca Chica. Are those things not manned anyway all the time regardless of a shutdown or not?
I can remember Jim once posting that SpaceX will essentially have its own range at Boca Chica. (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=29476.msg942654#msg942654)
In other words: if that early assessment by Jim is still correct, than the Boca Chica range will be a private range and, as such, NOT be part of the Eastern Range. Logically, such a private range should not be affected by a government shutdown, other than having to de-conflict with Eastern Range launches.
Post by: Sam Ho on 01/22/2018 12:19 pm
Alaska Aerospace provides range services for Rocket Lab.Either way the point is moot since it is about their interactions with the US government.Rocket Lab is a foreign company that formed a US division.That's exactly backwards.
https://www.rocketlabusa.com/frequently-asked-questions/QuoteWhere is Rocket Lab based?
Rocket Lab is an American company with headquarters in Los Angeles and a wholly-owned New Zealand subsidiary.
Do members of the FAA or other agencies have to attend every licensed launch?
If so, is there something different in the funding for those employees when they operate overseas?
AAC has a FAA-certified commercial launch team.
Quote
Rocket Lab intends to conduct a second launch of the Electron rocket from their Mahia facility on or about October 23, 2017. AAC will provide range safety and telemetry services. Their mission goal is for a commercial revenue-paying launch by the end of this year. The third launch is planned before end of year.http://akaerospace.com/sites/default/files/minutes/2017%2008%2017%20Board%20of%20Directors%20Minutes.pdf
Post by: Jim on 01/22/2018 01:42 pm
Would such a shutdown affect Boca Chica operations in some future point as well? I know that the Eastern Range is responsible for this, but I assume they "only" provide assets like radar and similar stuff for a remote place like Boca Chica. Are those things not manned anyway all the time regardless of a shutdown or not?
I can remember Jim once posting that SpaceX will essentially have its own range at Boca Chica. (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=29476.msg942654#msg942654)
In other words: if that early assessment by Jim is still correct, than the Boca Chica range will be a private range and, as such, NOT be part of the Eastern Range. Logically, such a private range should not be affected by a government shutdown, other than having to de-conflict with Eastern Range launches.
It depends on FAA and Coast Guard support required
Post by: Jim on 01/22/2018 01:45 pm
Rocket Lab is a foreign company that formed a US division.
>
That's exactly backwards.
https://www.rocketlabusa.com/frequently-asked-questions/QuoteWhere is Rocket Lab based?
Rocket Lab is an American company with headquarters in Los Angeles and a wholly-owned New Zealand subsidiary.
Rocket Lab was a NZ company first.
Post by: Rocket Science on 01/22/2018 02:09 pm
Space is only about an order of magnitude away from being the same scale as commercial air travel when it comes to value.I'm thinkin' that all of the current NSF members will be dust by then... ;D
Post by: Rocket Science on 01/22/2018 04:27 pm
Post by: Rocket Science on 01/22/2018 04:51 pm
Post by: Rocket Science on 01/22/2018 04:57 pm
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 01/22/2018 05:05 pm
If so, are there any pressing tasks on hold at Vandenberg because of the government shutdown?
(I didn't feel the need to splinter thread my question and any responses, but please do so if necessary.)
Post by: Rocket Science on 01/22/2018 05:08 pm
Agreed and tied to it is the funding up to Feb 8. Then, the House and the President. I hope we are not back here in three weeks again...Senate vote 81-18 to re-open... Now the House...That's cloture/ending debate; should be soon and it's a formality, but still have to vote on the bill.
Post by: kch on 01/22/2018 05:32 pm
Agreed and tied to it is the funding up to Feb 8. Then, the House and the President. I hope we are not back here in three weeks again...Senate vote 81-18 to re-open... Now the House...That's cloture/ending debate; should be soon and it's a formality, but still have to vote on the bill.
I share your hope ... that would be a pleasant surprise. :)
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 01/22/2018 05:45 pm
https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/trump-slams-democrats-as-third-day-of-government-shutdown-begins/2018/01/22/3a3eecf0-ff25-11e7-9d31-d72cf78dbeee_story.html?utm_term=.44c3cc3c648d
Post by: docmordrid on 01/22/2018 07:21 pm
Rocket Lab is a foreign company that formed a US division.
>
That's exactly backwards.
https://www.rocketlabusa.com/frequently-asked-questions/QuoteWhere is Rocket Lab based?
Rocket Lab is an American company with headquarters in Los Angeles and a wholly-owned New Zealand subsidiary.
Rocket Lab was a NZ company first.
Make up your mind: IS vs WAS. The former is current.
Post by: Chris Bergin on 01/22/2018 08:04 pm
(But seriously. You all know the rules here).
Post by: Rocket Science on 01/22/2018 09:31 pm
Post by: Rocket Science on 01/22/2018 10:17 pm
https://twitter.com/cspan/status/955578700099194880?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 01/22/2018 11:38 pm
Post by: Rocket Science on 01/22/2018 11:47 pm
If trump passes this, when will the gvt. Reopen? Is there a process after the signing to reopen, or do they just open right away?Not all departments of any agency are closed so the ones that are will probably begin to show up at their normal start time...
Post by: Jim on 01/23/2018 12:11 am
If trump passes this, when will the gvt. Reopen? Is there a process after the signing to reopen, or do they just open right away?
I haven't gotten anything official as of yet, so I will not be going to work tomorrow. Wednesday is likely
Post by: Rocket Science on 01/23/2018 12:30 am
Post by: Robotbeat on 01/23/2018 01:10 am
Post by: Rocket Science on 01/23/2018 01:27 am
Welp, Trump has just signed it.I guess that means the WH will answer the phones again... All the good folks at The Cape will be back at it, at least for three weeks that is...
Post by: Robotbeat on 01/23/2018 02:40 am
Post by: Jim on 01/23/2018 02:43 am
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 01/23/2018 10:55 pm