NASASpaceFlight.com Forum

SpaceX Vehicles and Missions => SpaceX Falcon Missions Section => Topic started by: gongora on 07/28/2017 03:48 am

Title: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 07/28/2017 03:48 am
DISCUSSION thread for Telstar 19 Vantage

NSF Threads for Telstar 19 Vantage : Discussion (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43465.0) / Update (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=45842.0) / Party (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42585.0)
NSF Articles for Telstar 19 Vantage :

July 22, 2018 (Window opens 01:50 Eastern / 05:50 UTC) on Falcon 9 (expected to be new Block 5 booster 1047) from SLC-40 at Cape Canaveral.  Payload mass approximately 7075kg.  ASDS landing is expected.

Other SpaceX resources on NASASpaceflight:
   SpaceX News Articles (Recent) (http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/tag/spacex/)  /   SpaceX News Articles from 2006 (Including numerous exclusive Elon interviews) (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=21862.0)
   SpaceX Dragon Articles (http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/tag/dragon/)  /  SpaceX Missions Section (with Launch Manifest and info on past and future missions) (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?board=55.0)
   L2 SpaceX Section (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?board=60.0)




[SpaceNews Nov. 11, 2015] Telesat Secures an Anchor for Telstar 19 Vantage Broadband Satellite (http://spacenews.com/telesat-secures-an-anchor-for-telstar-19-vantage-broadband-satellite/)
Quote
Satellite fleet operator Telesat of Canada on Nov. 11 said it would purchase a Ku-/Ka-band broadband satellite, called Telstar 19 Vantage, to be stationed at 63 degrees west over Latin America now that it had secured an anchor customer in EchoStar’s Hughes Network Systems...

Germantown, Maryland-based Hughes, in its own announcement, said it had agreed to lease a large portion of Telstar 19 Vantage’s Ka-band — a total of 31 gigabits per second of throughput — for 15 years, with the satellite to be launched in early 2018...

Hughes said the Telesat capacity would be used for consumer broadband throughout Latin America, not just Brazil. Hughes officials have said 24 gigabits per second of throughput on Eutelsat’s satellite would serve 300,000 customers in Brazil...

Ottawa-based Telesat said Telstar 19 Vantage will carry more Ka-band than has been leased by Hughes, with the additional capacity to be directed to markets in Northern Canada, the Caribbean and the North Atlantic Ocean. A Ku-band payload will be aimed at high-throughput and conventional wideband markets in Brazil, the Andean region and the North Atlantic Ocean.

SSL Press Release (https://sslmda.com/html/pressreleases/pr20151125.html)
Telesat Press Release 1 (https://www.telesat.com/news-events/telesat-announces-new-telstar-19-vantage-high-throughput-satellite) / Telesat Press Release 2 (https://www.telesat.com/news-events/telesat-orders-new-telstar-19-vantage-high-throughput-satellite-ssl)
Telesat Telstar 19 Vantage page (https://www.telesat.com/our-fleet/Telstar-19-VANTAGE)

[Spaceflight Now Feb. 26, 2016] Telesat launch agreements awarded to SpaceX (https://spaceflightnow.com/2016/02/26/telesat-launch-agreements-awarded-to-spacex/)
Quote
The Canadian telecom satellite operator Telesat plans to launch two multipurpose communications spacecraft aboard SpaceX Falcon rockets in 2018, the company disclosed this week in a quarterly earnings announcement.

A spokesperson for the Ottawa-based company said the new satellites, named Telstar 18 Vantage and Telstar 19 Vantage, would fly aboard Falcon 9 rockets.

FCC Filing (http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/ib/forms/reports/swr031b.hts?q_set=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number/%3D/SATPPL2016022500020&prepare=&column=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number)
Quote
estimated end-of-life mass of 3031 kg

Telstar 19 Vantage on Gunter's Space Page (http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/telstar-19v.htm)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 09/22/2017 03:48 pm
Telesat Signs Long Term Contract with Bell Canada for Telstar 19 VANTAGE HTS Capacity (https://www.telesat.com/news-events/telesat-signs-long-term-contract-bell-canada-telstar-19-vantage-hts-capacity)
Quote
OTTAWA, CANADA, September 15, 2017 – Telesat announced today that Bell Canada has signed a 15-year contract for substantially all of the HTS spot beam capacity over northern Canada on Telesat’s new Telstar 19 VANTAGE satellite. Bell Canada subsidiary Northwestel will use the capacity to dramatically enhance broadband connectivity for communities in Nunavut, Canada’s northernmost territory.

Telstar 19 VANTAGE is currently being built by Space Systems Loral in Palo Alto, CA. The satellite is scheduled to launch in the second quarter of 2018 on a SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket and will be co-located with Telesat’s Telstar 14R satellite at 63 degrees West, a prime orbital slot for coverage of the Americas. Once operational, Telstar 19 VANTAGE will have six distinct coverages over the Americas and North Atlantic and the most capacity in Gbps of any satellite in Telesat’s fleet.

The long-term agreement with Bell Canada marks another major pre-sale of HTS capacity on Telstar 19 VANTAGE. As previously announced, Hughes Network Systems LLC has contracted for all the South American high throughput Ka-band capacity of Telstar 19 VANTAGE. Combining Bell Canada’s long term contract with other customer commitments, Telesat has now signed long term contracts for the entire Ka-band HTS capacity on Telstar 19 VANTAGE over Northern Canada.

“The significant investment Telesat has made in Telstar 19 VANTAGE is the latest example of our decades-long record of committing major capital resources to bring advanced communications to Canada and its Northern communities” said Michele Beck, Telesat’s Vice President North American Sales. “Telesat is pleased to have concluded this important agreement with Bell Canada that will bring twenty times more capacity to the region using our new powerful, state-of-the-art satellite.”     

“Our agreement with Telesat is another example of Bell’s commitment to work closely with our country’s technology leaders to roll out innovative communications network solutions that benefit Canadians everywhere,” said Stephen Howe, Bell’s Chief Technology Officer. “We look forward to delivering enhanced broadband services to Canada’s North with the new Telstar 19 VANTAGE satellite.”

Northwestel plans to implement new and improved broadband for communities across Nunavut, one of the most difficult regions in the world to serve, beginning in the second half of 2018.

“Making high-quality broadband services available to remote communities across the vast expanse of Canada’s north is a huge challenge,” said Curtis Shaw, Chief Operating Officer, Northwestel. “Northwestel looks forward to utilizing the power and capabilities of Telesat’s new state-of-the-art Telstar 19 VANTAGE satellite as part of our commitment to connect 25 communities across Nunavut to faster and more reliable broadband over the next two years.”
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: IanThePineapple on 09/22/2017 04:04 pm
If the weight is around 5-6mTs, then Block 5 could probably land it ballistic. Block 4 might even be able to land on a 6mT mission, but that's just a guess and I have absolutely no evidence to back that up.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 11/02/2017 05:54 pm
Quote
Tweet from SSL (https://twitter.com/sslmda/status/926087843209871365):
Last week, the Telstar 19 VANTAGE satellite began testing in our TVAC, an environment designed to simulate the harsh conditions of space.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Semmel on 05/09/2018 11:18 am
According to some links below, the launch date of Telstar 19 should be June 17 form SLC 40. Any update on that date would be very welcome.

Links:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43418.0
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=45440.msg1814955#msg1814955
https://www.rocketlaunch.live/launch/telstar-19
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: OnWithTheShow on 05/25/2018 01:33 pm
Guessing this isn't making a NET June 17 as there has been no news of the payload reaching the Cape. Anyone have an update?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 05/25/2018 03:21 pm
Guessing this isn't making a NET June 17 as there has been no news of the payload reaching the Cape. Anyone have an update?

The next 3 GTO payloads are from SSL so they'll be trucked to the Cape, we may not get any notification of them arriving.  It's easier to track them when they're getting flown in on Antonovs from Europe or Japan.  This one is looking like July now.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: russianhalo117 on 05/25/2018 06:01 pm
Guessing this isn't making a NET June 17 as there has been no news of the payload reaching the Cape. Anyone have an update?

The next 3 GTO payloads are from SSL so they'll be trucked to the Cape, we may not get any notification of them arriving.  It's easier to track them when they're getting flown in on Antonovs from Europe or Japan.  This one is looking like July now.
It is my understanding that the 2 Telestar data may ship out together as they will launch close together.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 05/25/2018 06:09 pm
Guessing this isn't making a NET June 17 as there has been no news of the payload reaching the Cape. Anyone have an update?

The next 3 GTO payloads are from SSL so they'll be trucked to the Cape, we may not get any notification of them arriving.  It's easier to track them when they're getting flown in on Antonovs from Europe or Japan.  This one is looking like July now.
It is my understanding that the 2 Telestar data may ship out together as they will launch close together.

That would make sense.  The SSL payload preparation folks are going to be spending a lot of time at the Cape in the near future.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Craig_VG on 05/30/2018 03:28 pm
This is probably 1047 *The ends of Invention* on its way to the Cape for this launch

Spotted by reddit user fatherofzeuss in Perry, Florida (https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/8n950t/block_5_this_one_is_headed_south_parked_at_the/)

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Chris Bergin on 06/11/2018 05:36 pm
SpaceX:

HAWTHORNE, Calif. – June 11, 2018. Media accreditation is now open for SpaceX's Telstar 19 VANTAGE mission from Space Launch Complex 40 (SLC-40) at Cape Canaveral Air Force Station in Florida. The launch is targeted for no earlier than July. 
 
A Falcon 9 rocket will deliver Telstar 19 VANTAGE to a geostationary transfer orbit (GTO).
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Ragmar on 06/12/2018 01:43 pm
Any word on whether the payload has arrived at the Cape yet?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Chris Bergin on 06/14/2018 03:36 pm
Update thread now live as we have the launch date NET (July 19) :

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=45842.0
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 06/17/2018 05:39 pm
SSL wants to fly Telstar 19V to the Cape on an AN-124 but DOT hasn't approved the application.  SSL filed a letter on the 13th asking them to reconsider and allow a flight on the 15th, but it doesn't look like that happened.  Looks like they're hoping to fly in the next few days now if they can get permission.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 06/17/2018 07:48 pm
SSL wants to fly Telstar 19V to the Cape on an AN-124 but DOT hasn't approved the application.  SSL filed a letter on the 13th asking them to reconsider and allow a flight on the 15th, but it doesn't look like that happened.  Looks like they're hoping to fly in the next few days now if they can get permission.

The initial application to fly Telstar 19V to the Cape was filed on May 1, with a ship date of May 16-19.  Then there was an amendment on May 3 asking to change the shipment to May 21-25, an amendment on May 10 asking to change the shipment to Jun 1-6, an amendment on May 17 asking to change the shipment to June 20-25, and an amendment on June 4 asking to change the shipment to June 15-20.

While all of this was going on, they also applied on May 4 to fly Telstar 18V to the Cape between May 31 and June 6.  That request was granted on May 30 but the flight unsurprisingly didn't happen.

edit:  just noticed the paperwork for Telstar 19V says "The Telstar 19V satellite in MARVIN/CENTAURUS/SCORPIUS Spacecraft shipping container, and supporting equipment, measures approximately L-183" x W-64" x H164",
weighing approx. 71,000 pounds." but the paperwork for Telstar 18V says "The Telstar 18V satellite in CENTAURUS shipping container, and supporting equipment, measures approximately L-504" x W-192" x H-165", weighing approx. 156,800 pounds."  The numbers on the 19V paperwork don't look right.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: smoliarm on 06/18/2018 08:50 am
So, the history of applications - what does it mean?
Does it give a hint that something's wrong with the satellite?
Or something was wrong with the application (paperwork)?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 06/20/2018 03:38 am
There is an An-124 at Moffett Field right now.  Hopefully they got their paperwork done.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 06/20/2018 01:43 pm
That An-124 should get to the Cape in about 3 hours.  Assuming it has a satellite on board.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Yellowstone10 on 06/20/2018 04:56 pm
The Antonov AN-124 touched down at the Shuttle Landing Facility at 12:51 PM local.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 06/20/2018 06:57 pm
The DOT approval paperwork.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Scylla on 07/19/2018 04:24 pm
Instead of waiting, like they usually do, Go Quest and Go Pursuit have left port with Hawk and OCISLY. Any ideas why?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Michael Baylor on 07/19/2018 08:15 pm
Instead of waiting, like they usually do, Go Quest and Go Pursuit have left port with Hawk and OCISLY. Any ideas why?
They did leave a few hours later. Nothing was unusual this time.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Comga on 07/21/2018 12:18 am
Is it not now (00:15 7/21 UTC) less than 30 hours until the opening of the window (05:50 7/22 UTC) and still no news?
Either SpaceX is doing worse than planned, and they can't get the rocket ready, or better than previously shown, and they can roll out a Block 5 F9 and launch in less than a day. In the absence of statements from SpaceX or CCAFS one's guess probably reflects one's position more than any facts on the ground.
We shall see, if not today, then tomorrow.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: ZachS09 on 07/21/2018 07:57 am
Is it not now (00:15 7/21 UTC) less than 30 hours until the opening of the window (05:50 7/22 UTC) and still no news?
Either SpaceX is doing worse than planned, and they can't get the rocket ready, or better than previously shown, and they can roll out a Block 5 F9 and launch in less than a day. In the absence of statements from SpaceX or CCAFS one's guess probably reflects one's position more than any facts on the ground.
We shall see, if not today, then tomorrow.

My personal opinion is that SpaceX likes to put off the rollout until way later.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Jakusb on 07/21/2018 10:04 am
At some point we should see them speed up the whole roll-out and launch procedure in order to get to 24-48h turnaround..
With Block 5 being the final version, what would stop them from starting updating and shortening procedures now?

Taking out Static Fire would obviously be the biggest gain, but likely much also can be gained still in the rest of the procedures.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: KaiFarrimond on 07/21/2018 11:05 am
Do we know the exact launch mass of Telstar 19V yet? I've looked around for it but have only found the dry mass.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: ZachS09 on 07/21/2018 12:04 pm
Do we know the exact launch mass of Telstar 19V yet? I've looked around for it but have only found the dry mass.

https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2018/07/second-falcon-9-block-5-readying-for-static-fire-ahead-of-telstar-19v-launch/

"Telstar 19 Vantage weighs approximately 5.4 metric tons, which means the first stage will be able to land on Of Course I Still Love You."
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: KaiFarrimond on 07/21/2018 12:09 pm
"Telstar 19 Vantage weighs approximately 5.4 metric tons, which means the first stage will be able to land on Of Course I Still Love You."

Oops, must have missed that, thanks!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 07/21/2018 02:40 pm
Do we know the exact launch mass of Telstar 19V yet? I've looked around for it but have only found the dry mass.

https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2018/07/second-falcon-9-block-5-readying-for-static-fire-ahead-of-telstar-19v-launch/

"Telstar 19 Vantage weighs approximately 5.4 metric tons, which means the first stage will be able to land on Of Course I Still Love You."

I doubt that's the real mass.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Alexphysics on 07/21/2018 03:14 pm
Spaceflight Now is reporting this sat's mass is 7075kg, the heaviest GTO sat ever. Link to article: https://spaceflightnow.com/2018/07/21/record-setting-commercial-satellite-awaits-blastoff-from-cape-canaveral/

And the quotes:

Quote
The extra lift capability of the Falcon 9 Block 5 will allow the rocket to send the nearly 15,600-pound (7,075-kilogram) Telstar 19 VANTAGE satellite toward its operational perch in geostationary orbit more than 22,000 miles (nearly 36,000 kilometers) over the equator.

Quote
Telstar 19 VANTAGE will become the heaviest commercial communications satellite ever launched, eclipsing a record set by the TerreStar 1 telecom spacecraft, which weighed 15,234 pounds (6,910 kilograms) when it rode an Ariane 5 rocket into orbit July 2009.

It is also set to be the heaviest satellite ever launched by SpaceX into geostationary transfer orbit, the drop-off for most commercial telecom payloads.

At that mass, even for a Block 5 it seems too heavy, I think they won't launch it directly into GTO, probably sub-GTO like Hispasat 30w6.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 07/21/2018 03:17 pm
Spaceflight Now is reporting this sat's mass is 7075kg, the heaviest GTO sat ever. Link to article: https://spaceflightnow.com/2018/07/21/record-setting-commercial-satellite-awaits-blastoff-from-cape-canaveral/

At last the mythical 7-ton sat Gwynne mentioned shows up  :D
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: wannamoonbase on 07/21/2018 05:21 pm
I was shocked when I read the spaceflightnow article.  That’s huge and larger than the FH Arabsat 6.

7000 kg on a F9 with recovery, this is impressive.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 07/21/2018 07:47 pm
I was shocked when I read the spaceflightnow article.  That’s huge and larger than the FH Arabsat 6.

7000 kg on a F9 with recovery, this is impressive.

It has more total mass than other comsats with all of that fuel, but SES-12 probably has significantly bigger dry mass.  Different customers make different trade-offs.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: John Alan on 07/21/2018 07:52 pm
Thinking out loud...  ???
IF the bird is set up to do it's first orbit raising burn at first apogee... enough to get it's perigee up out of the weeds...  :o
And this always was the plan as built... The bird IS it's own "3rd" stage of sorts...

AND if the 2nd stage basically reenters at first perigee encountered with no serious reentry burn employed...

We may never really know the real performance numbers... as I believe most orbit tracking sources need at least one full orbit to publish them...  :(

We all really like to see those GTO-xxxx numbers and awe at how good a rocket did with yyyy kg...
BUT... those days of having apples to apples numbers to compare rocket performance may be over...

Reason... we really don't know how much that first bird burn did to raise it's orbit when it's done so soon...  :-\

BUT... it's one way and a smart way to make a little rocket haul big things up at low cost overall..  8)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 07/21/2018 07:55 pm
AND if the 2nd stage basically reenters at first perigee encountered with no serious reentry burn employed...

SpaceX usually doesn't immediately deorbit the second stage on GTO flights.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: John Alan on 07/21/2018 08:01 pm
AND if the 2nd stage basically reenters at first perigee encountered with no serious reentry burn employed...

SpaceX usually doesn't immediately deorbit the second stage on GTO flights.

True... I agree...
BUT if the 2nd stage does not make it around a few laps... Then we will know that the bird really helped itself in the initial published orbit figures we see...  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 07/21/2018 08:06 pm
AND if the 2nd stage basically reenters at first perigee encountered with no serious reentry burn employed...

SpaceX usually doesn't immediately deorbit the second stage on GTO flights.

True... I agree...
BUT if the 2nd stage does not make it around a few laps... Then we will know that the bird really helped itself in the initial published orbit figures we see...  ;)

If SpaceX doesn't do a deorbit burn then the second stage will be up there for a while.  It's not going to deploy the satellite on a suborbital trajectory.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Tomness on 07/21/2018 08:08 pm
I was shocked when I read the spaceflightnow article.  That’s huge and larger than the FH Arabsat 6.

7000 kg on a F9 with recovery, this is impressive.

It has more total mass than other comsats with all of that fuel, but SES-12 probably has significantly bigger dry mass.  Different customers make different trade-offs.

Gwen has said they have sand bagged their figures before. You think F9 B5 got legs? Hit recovery on GTO-1800 on 7000kg. Or you think they going for sub geosynchronous transfer orbit?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: John Alan on 07/21/2018 08:11 pm
AND if the 2nd stage basically reenters at first perigee encountered with no serious reentry burn employed...

SpaceX usually doesn't immediately deorbit the second stage on GTO flights.

True... I agree...
BUT if the 2nd stage does not make it around a few laps... Then we will know that the bird really helped itself in the initial published orbit figures we see...  ;)

If SpaceX doesn't do a deorbit burn then the second stage will be up there for a while.  It's not going to deploy the satellite on a suborbital trajectory.

7000kg gross and ASDS recovery... Single stick F9 B5...
IMHO is only possible with some serious delta-v trade into the bird handling it's final shove before first perigee or it's maybe lost...  :P
And 2nd stage may come down on it's own sooner then later this time...
Guess we will see... <popcorn>...  :)

Gwen has said they have sand bagged their figures before. You think F9 B5 got legs? Hit recovery on GTO-1800 on 7000kg. Or you think they going for sub geosynchronous transfer orbit?

I think at the moment of sat separation... I believe it could be very sub GTO...
The 19V was maybe programmed to do a initial burn at very first apogee to raise it's perigee to something more typical.
IF the first tracking numbers come in showing 19V in say a GTO-1800 orbit AND S2 is not found... then I may have been right...  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Alexphysics on 07/21/2018 08:31 pm
Perigee is usually at LEO, usually high up at least above 200km, high enough for the second stage to be in that orbit for a few months at least. No reason to think that this particular mission will have a lower perigee than others, it will be as normal as usual, what's going to be lower than usual will probably be the apogee, but that doesn't affect to the rate of decay of the orbit (Well, technically it affects, but because a lower apogee means a shorter orbital period so the second stage will pass more times through the perigee in less time, but it will also pass through the perigee at a lower velocity, so who knows if it really affects it in the end or not).
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: envy887 on 07/21/2018 08:44 pm
Perigee is usually at LEO, usually high up at least above 200km, high enough for the second stage to be in that orbit for a few months at least. No reason to think that this particular mission will have a lower perigee than others, it will be as normal as usual, what's going to be lower than usual will probably be the apogee, but that doesn't affect to the rate of decay of the orbit (Well, technically it affects, but because a lower apogee means a shorter orbital period so the second stage will pass more times through the perigee in less time, but it will also pass through the perigee at a lower velocity, so who knows if it really affects it in the end or not).

Perigee altitude has a HUGE effect on the decay rate. The atmosphere is very non-linear in density vs altitude, so a slightly lower perigee greatly increases drag.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Alexphysics on 07/21/2018 09:08 pm
I was talking about the apogee affecting the decay rate, not perigee. I said about the perigee that we shouldn't expect this to be anything special at all and that it's usually above 200km. Second stages usually tend to stay for months in GTO even with perigees as low as that altitude, it's not that complex to understand I guess.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: envy887 on 07/21/2018 10:14 pm
I was talking about the apogee affecting the decay rate, not perigee. I said about the perigee that we shouldn't expect this to be anything special at all and that it's usually above 200km. Second stages usually tend to stay for months in GTO even with perigees as low as that altitude, it's not that complex to understand I guess.

Hah yeah I completely misread that. You're right.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: abaddon on 07/21/2018 10:36 pm
IIRC the first Block 5 launch used a Block 4 flight profile for S2 (not utilizing the extra thrust).  Presumably this launch will be using full rated thrust on both S1and S2 to get this bird as close to a normal GTO as possible.  Will be interesting to compare!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: wannamoonbase on 07/22/2018 04:40 am
IIRC the first Block 5 launch used a Block 4 flight profile for S2 (not utilizing the extra thrust).  Presumably this launch will be using full rated thrust on both S1and S2 to get this bird as close to a normal GTO as possible.  Will be interesting to compare!

Agreed on all counts.  A full Block 5 profile will be very fun to watch.  And we can get a new baseline.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: mtakala24 on 07/22/2018 05:35 am
SpaceX has still not publicly made the webcast link available, it is a private youtube link.


Perhaps this is to prevent the large number of rebroadcasters stealing their content? Dunno.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Lars-J on 07/22/2018 05:37 am
SpaceX has still not publicly made the webcast link available, it is a private youtube link.

Is anyone going to share it?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: mtakala24 on 07/22/2018 05:37 am
The link is on the page two of the live thread.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Tomness on 07/22/2018 05:38 am
SpaceX has still not publicly made the webcast link available, it is a private youtube link.

Is anyone going to share it?

Its in the update thread.
Updated:
https://youtu.be/xybp6zLaGx4
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: mtakala24 on 07/22/2018 05:42 am
Now it is also publicly on YouTube.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Halidon on 07/22/2018 06:03 am
Will never not be amazed when the feed comes back and the stage is just sitting there.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Tomness on 07/22/2018 06:03 am
Booster is back :)

Right in the bullseye!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: LouScheffer on 07/22/2018 06:08 am
First stage cutoff was at 8170 km/hr = 2270 m/s.

This is exactly what we've seen on previous GTO with recovery missions.   So no big performance boost for block 5.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Tomness on 07/22/2018 06:10 am
Interesting.  The calls were very clear over the loop that the F9 had landed safely, yet webcast host seemed very uncertain if a landing had occurred.

IMO Webhosts arent listing to Launch Net anymore & either taking queues from teleprompter or Web Stream Director.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Pete on 07/22/2018 06:10 am
First stage cutoff was at 8170 km/hr = 2270 m/s.

This is exactly what we've seen on previous GTO with recovery missions.   So no big performance boost for block 5.

You don't consider the fact that they did this with a payload in excess of SEVEN TONS, as significant?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: dasmoth on 07/22/2018 06:11 am
Has anyone been tracking entry burn times?  That one seemed really short to me.  Makes sense, given the heavy payload — but seems like they might still be pushing the “how hot can you go?” boundaries.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: M.E.T. on 07/22/2018 06:11 am
Am I misremembering, or is MECO normally at around 2.24, whereas today it was about 10 seconds later at 2.34? Is there any significance to this, as in a correlation to increased peformance, or is this an optional cutoff point based on mission profile?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Lars-J on 07/22/2018 06:16 am
Looks like SpaceX attached the 2nd stage cameras much better now. Very little camera shake compared to previous missions.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: toruonu on 07/22/2018 06:20 am
What's with the silence ... and no S2 engine cutoff nor is there any new telemetry it looks like (the altitude should have started to increase)

edit: looks like a comms issue, now updating and all fine.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Halidon on 07/22/2018 06:24 am
Little bit of tumble on the payload?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: rickl on 07/22/2018 06:28 am
It looked to me like the second stage was moving oddly after the second engine cutoff.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Lars-J on 07/22/2018 06:28 am
Little bit of tumble on the payload?

Happened for the last launch too, looks like the whole F9US and payload was spun slightly - presumably to ensure that separation would occur even if some pushers failed?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Elthiryel on 07/22/2018 06:33 am
If I remember correctly, many satellites manufactured by SSL were released this way, but I would have to check previous webcasts to confirm.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: edkyle99 on 07/22/2018 06:34 am
Looked like a subsynchronous injection to me (32,670 - 26,504 km/hr ~=1,712 m/s delta-v) on that second burn, though the stage had already slowed by the time they showed the last velocity so the actual delta-v should be a bit larger. 

 - Ed Kyle
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: LouScheffer on 07/22/2018 06:34 am
Looked very sub-synchronous.  Telemetry froze for a while, but when it resumed (at 30:43) it showed 32835 km/hr = 9120 m/s.   Add in the 402 m/s from Earth's rotation, to get 9522 m/s.  That's about a 14000 km apogee (assuming no inclination reduction), and another 600 m/s to go to get to a nominal GTO.  So GEO - 2400 m/s.     
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: DigitalMan on 07/22/2018 06:39 am
That was quite a long trail of green as S2 lit up.  I guess I hadn't noticed that before.  I didn't see a jellyfish plume on S2 this time, perhaps it needs light reflecting off it from the sun or moon. 

Great launch.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Robotbeat on 07/22/2018 06:44 am
I don’t remember seeing that much tumble on previous launches. I doubt it’s a concern but is different.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: DigitalMan on 07/22/2018 06:47 am
I don’t remember seeing that much tumble on previous launches. I doubt it’s a concern but is different.

Tumble of the satellite, yea.  Perhaps the CG is in a peculiar place.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Elthiryel on 07/22/2018 06:48 am
Hispasat 30W-6 was also based on SSL-1300 platform and separation looks almost the same (from 44:54).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kpfrp-GMKKM?t=44m54s
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Nehkara on 07/22/2018 06:49 am
I remember hearing/reading that it's intentional.  As you could see, right before the satellite was deployed, stage 2 purposefully altered its orientation and then released it.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Lars-J on 07/22/2018 06:49 am
That was quite a long trail of green as S2 lit up.  I guess I hadn't noticed that before.  I didn't see a jellyfish plume on S2 this time, perhaps it needs light reflecting off it from the sun or moon. 

Great launch.

You'll only see a jellyfish if the launch is just before dawn or after sunset. The 2nd stage plume needs to be illuminated by the sun to create that effect, and in this case the 2nd stage did not get into sunlight until a couple of minutes after engine cutoff.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: DigitalMan on 07/22/2018 06:51 am
That was quite a long trail of green as S2 lit up.  I guess I hadn't noticed that before.  I didn't see a jellyfish plume on S2 this time, perhaps it needs light reflecting off it from the sun or moon. 

Great launch.

You'll only see a jellyfish if the launch is just before dawn or after sunset. The 2nd stage plume needs to be illuminated by the sun to create that effect, and in this case the 2nd stage did not get into sunlight until a couple of minutes after engine cutoff.

Yea, too far away by then for me to see it with my binoculars.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 07/22/2018 06:53 am
Some interesting screen grabs.

Interstage gets a toasting.
A blue plume during fin deployment.
First stage goes below the horizon.
Drone ship.
Picture brightens from first stage engine.
Can just see engine flame before loss of signal.
Unstable video connection.
Landed vehicle in better focus.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: edkyle99 on 07/22/2018 06:55 am
Looked very sub-synchronous.  Telemetry froze for a while, but when it resumed (at 30:43) it showed 32835 km/hr = 9120 m/s.   Add in the 402 m/s from Earth's rotation, to get 9522 m/s.  That's about a 14000 km apogee (assuming no inclination reduction), and another 600 m/s to go to get to a nominal GTO.  So GEO - 2400 m/s.     
That's what I'm getting too, something like a 250 x 14,000 km (or less) orbit.  I think we expected subsynchronous, but I wonder about the "very" part. 

 - Ed Kyle
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Alexphysics on 07/22/2018 06:59 am
First stage cutoff was at 8170 km/hr = 2270 m/s.

This is exactly what we've seen on previous GTO with recovery missions.   So no big performance boost for block 5.

But keep in mind that this booster shut down at 2:30, other GTO missions had MECO a few seconds later. Block 5 makes a difference here, same speed but earlier in the flight
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Alexphysics on 07/22/2018 07:02 am
Am I misremembering, or is MECO normally at around 2.24, whereas today it was about 10 seconds later at 2.34? Is there any significance to this, as in a correlation to increased peformance, or is this an optional cutoff point based on mission profile?

GTO missions have MECO around 2:35, the last Block 5 had the MECO time at 2:30 like this one (per the press kit), Block 5 makes difference being at the same speed but a few seconds earlier than with Block 4. What you think about MECO times being around 2:25 is for RTLS missions.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Rebel44 on 07/22/2018 07:05 am
Looked very sub-synchronous.  Telemetry froze for a while, but when it resumed (at 30:43) it showed 32835 km/hr = 9120 m/s.   Add in the 402 m/s from Earth's rotation, to get 9522 m/s.  That's about a 14000 km apogee (assuming no inclination reduction), and another 600 m/s to go to get to a nominal GTO.  So GEO - 2400 m/s.     
That's what I'm getting too, something like a 250 x 14,000 km (or less) orbit.  I think we expected subsynchronous, but I wonder about the "very" part. 

 - Ed Kyle

 HISPASAT 30W-6 (with its smaller mass of 6,092 kg) was launched by Falcon 9 Block 4 to 184 x 22,261 km, 26.97°
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: docmordrid on 07/22/2018 07:10 am
F9 brought out a fan...

Buzz Aldrin ✓ @TheRealBuzz
#Falcon @NASAKennedy @SpaceX https://t.co/VPQ5uL3CFK (http://"https://t.co/VPQ5uL3CFK")

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Lars-J on 07/22/2018 07:13 am
That was quite a long trail of green as S2 lit up.  I guess I hadn't noticed that before.  I didn't see a jellyfish plume on S2 this time, perhaps it needs light reflecting off it from the sun or moon. 

Great launch.

You'll only see a jellyfish if the launch is just before dawn or after sunset. The 2nd stage plume needs to be illuminated by the sun to create that effect, and in this case the 2nd stage did not get into sunlight until a couple of minutes after engine cutoff.

Yea, too far away by then for me to see it with my binoculars.

Binoculars would have made no difference :-), the stage was way over the horizon and practically over Africa before it hit sunlight.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: yokem55 on 07/22/2018 07:17 am
Looked very sub-synchronous.  Telemetry froze for a while, but when it resumed (at 30:43) it showed 32835 km/hr = 9120 m/s.   Add in the 402 m/s from Earth's rotation, to get 9522 m/s.  That's about a 14000 km apogee (assuming no inclination reduction), and another 600 m/s to go to get to a nominal GTO.  So GEO - 2400 m/s.   
The variable we won't know until we get TLE's is the inclination. There could be a bunch of inclination reduction in that burn as well that won't show up in the final velocity.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: docmordrid on 07/22/2018 07:20 am
WOW!!

TomCross @_TomCross_
Tonights Falcon 9 max-Q was super awesome! #spacex #falcon9 @Teslarati #TelStar19V
2:13 AM - Jul 22, 2018 · Florida, USA

https://twitter.com/_TomCross_/status/1020914676371271680?s=19
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: DigitalMan on 07/22/2018 07:23 am
That was quite a long trail of green as S2 lit up.  I guess I hadn't noticed that before.  I didn't see a jellyfish plume on S2 this time, perhaps it needs light reflecting off it from the sun or moon. 

Great launch.

You'll only see a jellyfish if the launch is just before dawn or after sunset. The 2nd stage plume needs to be illuminated by the sun to create that effect, and in this case the 2nd stage did not get into sunlight until a couple of minutes after engine cutoff.

Yea, too far away by then for me to see it with my binoculars.

Binoculars would have made no difference :-), the stage was way over the horizon and practically over Africa before it hit sunlight.

Yea, I was just pointing out that I had been watching it with my binoculars until it went out of view earlier.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: JimO on 07/22/2018 08:06 am
Burn-2 over Africa seems to have been against a post-sunrise sky so we won't get UFO reports this time, like we did for the Falcon-Heavy trans-Mars insertion burn.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: tp1024 on 07/22/2018 08:39 am
Looked very sub-synchronous.  Telemetry froze for a while, but when it resumed (at 30:43) it showed 32835 km/hr = 9120 m/s.   Add in the 402 m/s from Earth's rotation, to get 9522 m/s.  That's about a 14000 km apogee (assuming no inclination reduction), and another 600 m/s to go to get to a nominal GTO.  So GEO - 2400 m/s.   
The variable we won't know until we get TLE's is the inclination. There could be a bunch of inclination reduction in that burn as well that won't show up in the final velocity.

Unless you have another look at worldmap with the trajectory on the livestream. You'll see it shifting north from crossing Lake Bangweulu to crossing above Lake Mweru - or roughly half the north-south extend of Lake Malawi. Which is a difference of about 300km at a distance of about 3000km from the equator. So it lost on the order of 6 degrees of inclination.

So ths reduces the delta-v required for plane change to 245 m/s, saves 75m/s and makes it approximately a GEO -2325m/s trajectory. [Goof corrected.]
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Ultrafamicom on 07/22/2018 10:29 am
Spaceflight Now is reporting this sat's mass is 7075kg, the heaviest GTO sat ever. Link to article: https://spaceflightnow.com/2018/07/21/record-setting-commercial-satellite-awaits-blastoff-from-cape-canaveral/

At last the mythical 7-ton sat Gwynne mentioned shows up  :D
Can you provide the source? I remember she had said that, but forgot when
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: RLA on 07/22/2018 10:37 am
Be I the only one who thinks the second stage burned 10 seconds less then what was planned for the second burn?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: tp1024 on 07/22/2018 10:46 am
Looked very sub-synchronous.  Telemetry froze for a while, but when it resumed (at 30:43) it showed 32835 km/hr = 9120 m/s.   Add in the 402 m/s from Earth's rotation, to get 9522 m/s.  That's about a 14000 km apogee (assuming no inclination reduction), and another 600 m/s to go to get to a nominal GTO.  So GEO - 2400 m/s.   
The variable we won't know until we get TLE's is the inclination. There could be a bunch of inclination reduction in that burn as well that won't show up in the final velocity.

Unless you have another look at worldmap with the trajectory on the livestream. You'll see it shifting north from crossing Lake Bangweulu to crossing above Lake Mweru - or roughly half the north-south extend of Lake Malawi. Which is a difference of about 300km at a distance of about 3000km from the equator. So it lost on the order of 6 degrees of inclination.

So ths reduces the delta-v required for plane change to 245 m/s, saves 75m/s and makes it approximately a GEO -2325m/s trajectory. [Goof corrected.]

After doing more math (-> https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/aeronautics-and-astronautics/16-512-rocket-propulsion-fall-2005/lecture-notes/lecture_34.pdf) and noticing that a 6 degree change in inclination is a fairly stupid and about 2-3 degrees is the way to go (6 degrees correction while accelerating from LEO costs about 100m/s delta V extra compared to either a smaller change or doing it a apogee) ...

I also noticed at least some of the apparent shift in the trajectory is because the trajectory is higher above the ground after raising it (duh).

The reason why it makes sense to change inclination a little is a neat bit of trigonometry during the acceleration burn. A pure plane-change of 2 degree in LEO would normally cost 270m/s of delta V, in a burn at a right angle to the trajectory  - such that your new velocity vector is no longer 7800 m/s to the right, but turned up by 2 degree. And you can't do anything to improve that.

But if you want to accelerate from 7800m/s to 9500m/s and change the plane by 2 degree at the same time, your new velocity vector is 1700m/s longer to the right and 330m/s up (because you are faster after the acceleration, the delta-v between planes is also larger).

Now you have three options.
1) Do plane-change first, accelerate later -> 270m/s + 1700m/s = 1970m/s
2) Accelerate first do plane-change later -> 1700m/s + 330m/s = 2030m/s

3) Do both at once. The real acceleration vector is (roughly) the hypotenuse of the triangle you would get with option 2. And old man Pythagoras tells us that this this is 1732 m/s long - compared to 1700m/s without any plane-change at all.

Which is a real bargain, because the same maneuver in GTO at 36000km apogee would cost 56m/s. (Which leads me to believe that the real change was a bit larger than 2 degree, because the Merlin MVac is more efficient than the satellite engines and it makes more sense to do some more work with that.)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: CorvusCorax on 07/22/2018 12:18 pm
Also the Falcon upper stage is expendable. So its best to squeeze as much delta/v out of it as possible and have the sat, which needs to spent its life with a finite amount of storeable propellant, have to do as little work as possible.

This can be done by pushing the sat into a supersynchronous orbit (or at least make it less subsynchronous) or make some extra inclination change even though it would be more efficient at apogee (but paid with finite hypergolics instead of Kerolox that's going to reenter anyway) or both. Whichever gives the sat the best possible overall deltav budget.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Alexphysics on 07/22/2018 12:47 pm
This sat has a lot of fuel, that's why it is so heavy. The sat has been injected into a lower orbit and it will raise its orbit over the next few weeks. Once in GEO, station-keeping maneuvers will be done via ion thrusters so the amount of hydrazine fuel left at GEO insertion is irrelevant in this case because it uses different propellants, so if it saves hydrazine or not, that won't matter.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: theonlyspace on 07/22/2018 12:49 pm
Were  the fairings halves  recovered?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: seruriermarshal on 07/22/2018 12:57 pm
Congratulations !

 ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: deruch on 07/22/2018 01:08 pm
Were  the fairings halves  recovered?

If you mean were they caught by a ship with the net on it?  No.  If the fairings had the recovery hardware installed, they may get picked up from the ocean surface.  But SpaceX doesn't currently have a fairing catching ship on the east coast.  Their only one Mr. Steven, which operates out of Los Angeles and attempts catching fairing halves from launches out of VAFB.  Next attempt will be on the upcoming Iridium 7 launch.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: edkyle99 on 07/22/2018 01:33 pm
Looked very sub-synchronous.  Telemetry froze for a while, but when it resumed (at 30:43) it showed 32835 km/hr = 9120 m/s.   Add in the 402 m/s from Earth's rotation, to get 9522 m/s.  That's about a 14000 km apogee (assuming no inclination reduction), and another 600 m/s to go to get to a nominal GTO.  So GEO - 2400 m/s.     
That's what I'm getting too, something like a 250 x 14,000 km (or less) orbit.  I think we expected subsynchronous, but I wonder about the "very" part. 

 - Ed Kyle

 HISPASAT 30W-6 (with its smaller mass of 6,092 kg) was launched by Falcon 9 Block 4 to 184 x 22,261 km, 26.97°
And now we see TLEs showing 243 x 17,863 km x 27 deg for 7,075 kg Telestar 19V.  We missed the maximum velocity at engine cutoff due to the data dropout (screen freeze), which led us to our lower initial apogee estimate. 

They had planned to attempt OSCILY landing for the Hispasat booster, but sea states prevented an attempt.

As I see it, VA-189/TerraStar 1 still holds the record for GTO mass (6,910 kg to 250 x 35,786 km x 6 deg), since Telestar 19V went subsynchronous.

 - Ed Kyle
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: ZachF on 07/22/2018 01:56 pm
In the updates thread Soltasto calculated this as GTO-2065m/s.

Doing a little math then puts the GTO-1800 capability of Block 5 with ASDS at ~6,150kg.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: ZachF on 07/22/2018 02:00 pm
Looked very sub-synchronous.  Telemetry froze for a while, but when it resumed (at 30:43) it showed 32835 km/hr = 9120 m/s.   Add in the 402 m/s from Earth's rotation, to get 9522 m/s.  That's about a 14000 km apogee (assuming no inclination reduction), and another 600 m/s to go to get to a nominal GTO.  So GEO - 2400 m/s.     
That's what I'm getting too, something like a 250 x 14,000 km (or less) orbit.  I think we expected subsynchronous, but I wonder about the "very" part. 

 - Ed Kyle

 HISPASAT 30W-6 (with its smaller mass of 6,092 kg) was launched by Falcon 9 Block 4 to 184 x 22,261 km, 26.97°
And now we see TLEs showing 243 x 17,863 km x 27 deg for 7,075 kg Telestar 19V.  We missed the maximum velocity at engine cutoff due to the data dropout (screen freeze), which led us to our lower initial apogee estimate. 

They had planned to attempt OSCILY landing for the Hispasat booster, but sea states prevented an attempt.

As I see it, VA-189/TerraStar 1 still holds the record for GTO mass (6,910 kg to 250 x 35,786 km x 6 deg), since Telestar 19V went subsynchronous.

 - Ed Kyle

It would be interesting to know the final mass of both when they reach their final orbits. If I had to guess I would probably tip the hat towards TerraStar.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: eriblo on 07/22/2018 02:38 pm
2018-059A/43562 (243 km x 17863 km x 27.00°) has a delta v to GTO of  2064.5751 m/s or it is in GTO-2065
2018-059B/43563 (242 km x 17860 km x 27.00°) has a delta v to GTO of  2064.7341 m/s or it is in GTO-2065

according to my C/C++ program based on this (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36954.0).
What parameters did you use? I get 2277 m/s using that approach (which seems to agree with this (https://gtocalc.github.io/) online implementation)...? BTW, doing a third of a degree of the inclination change in the first apogee raising burn saves ~4 m/s.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: soltasto on 07/22/2018 02:48 pm
2018-059A/43562 (243 km x 17863 km x 27.00°) has a delta v to GTO of  2064.5751 m/s or it is in GTO-2065
2018-059B/43563 (242 km x 17860 km x 27.00°) has a delta v to GTO of  2064.7341 m/s or it is in GTO-2065

according to my C/C++ program based on this (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36954.0).
What parameters did you use? I get 2277 m/s using that approach (which seems to agree with this (https://gtocalc.github.io/) online implementation)...? BTW, doing a third of a degree of the inclination change in the first apogee raising burn saves ~4 m/s.

I used the TLE data along with the program written by LouScheffer. I literally "translated" that program.
This is the program, it should compile with GCC using C++11:


#include <iostream>
#include <iomanip>
#include <cmath>
using namespace std;
int main() {
    int stay;
    do {
        stay=0;
        double perigee, apogee, inclination;
        cout << "Enter perigee in km, apogee in km, inclination in degrees." << endl;
        cin >> perigee >> apogee >> inclination;
        cout << setprecision(4) << fixed << "Perigee: " << perigee << " km" << endl << "Apogee: " << apogee << " km" << endl;
        double sma;
        sma = ((perigee + apogee) / 2) + 6371; //semi-minor axis, 6371 is Earth radius in km
        cout << setprecision(4) << fixed << "Semi-major axis: " << sma << " km" << endl;
        double const MU = 3.986005e14;
        double vp, va;
        vp = sqrt((MU * (apogee + 6371) * 1000) / ((perigee + 6371) * sma * 1e6));
        va = sqrt((MU * (perigee + 6371) * 1000) / ((apogee + 6371) * sma * 1e6));
        cout << setprecision(4) << fixed << "Speed at perigee: " << vp << " m/s" << endl << "Speed at apogee: " << va << " m/s" << endl;
        double rpd = 8681663.653 / pow(sma, 3 / 2); //revolutions per day
        cout << setprecision(4) << fixed << "Revolutions per day: " << rpd << endl << "Days per revolution: " << 1 / rpd << endl;
        double sync = 35786;
        sma = (sync + apogee) / 2 + 6371;
        perigee = sync;
        double nvp, nva;
        nvp = sqrt((MU * (apogee + 6371) * 1000) / ((perigee + 6371) * sma * 1e6));
        nva = sqrt((MU * (perigee + 6371) * 1000) / ((apogee + 6371) * sma * 1e6));
        cout << setprecision(4) << fixed << "Speed at perigee: " << nvp << " m/s" << endl << "Speed at apogee: " << nva << " m/s" << endl;
        double cross, along, need_along, dv_top, dv_bot, total;
        double const GEO_V = 3075;
        cross = va * sin((inclination / 180) * M_PI);
        along = va * cos((inclination / 180) * M_PI);
        cout << setprecision(4) << fixed << "Cross v at apogee: " << cross << " m/s" << endl << "Along track: " << along << " m/s" << endl;
        need_along = nva - along;
        dv_top = sqrt(pow(cross, 2) + pow(need_along, 2));
        cout << setprecision(4) << fixed << "Delta-v at top: " << dv_top << endl;
        dv_bot = nvp - GEO_V;
        cout << setprecision(4) << fixed << "Delta-v at bot: " << dv_bot << endl;
        total = dv_top + dv_bot;
        cout << setprecision(4) << fixed << "Delta-v (total): " << total << endl;

        cout << "Enter 1 to restart or any key to close." << endl;
        cin >> stay;
    }while(stay==1);
    return 0;
}
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 07/22/2018 03:07 pm
This is the interview where Gwynne mentioned having 7-ton satellites on the manifest:
http://interactive.satellitetoday.com/via/april-2017/shotwell-ambitious-targets-achievable-this-year/
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: LouScheffer on 07/22/2018 03:30 pm
2018-059A/43562 (243 km x 17863 km x 27.00°) has a delta v to GTO of  2064.5751 m/s or it is in GTO-2065
2018-059B/43563 (242 km x 17860 km x 27.00°) has a delta v to GTO of  2064.7341 m/s or it is in GTO-2065

according to my C/C++ program based on this (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36954.0).
What parameters did you use? I get 2277 m/s using that approach (which seems to agree with this (https://gtocalc.github.io/) online implementation)...? BTW, doing a third of a degree of the inclination change in the first apogee raising burn saves ~4 m/s.

I used the TLE data along with the program written by LouScheffer. I literally "translated" that program.
This is the program, it should compile with GCC using C++11:

...

Unfortunately, that program is only correct for synchronous or greater.   It does not account for the perigee burn to raise the apogee, gets the wrong sign for circularization if the apogee is below GEO, and will do the inclination reduction at the wrong burn if sub-sync.  So the numbers from this program will be wrong for the sub-sync case, which this is.  Sorry, it should check for that and either do it right, or at least give a message, rather than silently doing it wrong.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Avron on 07/22/2018 03:42 pm
No word yet on T19V health - should have had something by now ? I may have missed it - I just don't see any news on health
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: ugordan on 07/22/2018 03:54 pm
No word yet on T19V health - should have had something by now ? I may have missed it - I just don't see any news on health

https://twitter.com/pbdes/status/1020932323771146240

Manufacturer @sslmda @sslmda @MaxarTech reports #Telesat Telstar 19V sat is healthy in orbit after separation from @SpaceX Falcon 9.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: eriblo on 07/22/2018 04:07 pm
2018-059A/43562 (243 km x 17863 km x 27.00°) has a delta v to GTO of  2064.5751 m/s or it is in GTO-2065
2018-059B/43563 (242 km x 17860 km x 27.00°) has a delta v to GTO of  2064.7341 m/s or it is in GTO-2065

according to my C/C++ program based on this (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36954.0).
What parameters did you use? I get 2277 m/s using that approach (which seems to agree with this (https://gtocalc.github.io/) online implementation)...? BTW, doing a third of a degree of the inclination change in the first apogee raising burn saves ~4 m/s.

I used the TLE data along with the program written by LouScheffer. I literally "translated" that program.
This is the program, it should compile with GCC using C++11:

...

Unfortunately, that program is only correct for synchronous or greater.   It does not account for the perigee burn to raise the apogee, gets the wrong sign for circularization if the apogee is below GEO, and will do the inclination reduction at the wrong burn if sub-sync.  So the numbers from this program will be wrong for the sub-sync case, which this is.  Sorry, it should check for that and either do it right, or at least give a message, rather than silently doing it wrong.
Running solasto's implementation doesn't give any errors but I think it spits out a perigee speed that is lower than the apogee speed after the first burn and a corresponding negative delta v. This could be taken as a warning ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: jcm on 07/22/2018 04:18 pm
2018-059A/43562 (243 km x 17863 km x 27.00°) has a delta v to GTO of  2064.5751 m/s or it is in GTO-2065
2018-059B/43563 (242 km x 17860 km x 27.00°) has a delta v to GTO of  2064.7341 m/s or it is in GTO-2065

according to my C/C++ program based on this (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36954.0).
What parameters did you use? I get 2277 m/s using that approach (which seems to agree with this (https://gtocalc.github.io/) online implementation)...? BTW, doing a third of a degree of the inclination change in the first apogee raising burn saves ~4 m/s.

I used the TLE data along with the program written by LouScheffer. I literally "translated" that program.
This is the program, it should compile with GCC using C++11:

...

Unfortunately, that program is only correct for synchronous or greater.   It does not account for the perigee burn to raise the apogee, gets the wrong sign for circularization if the apogee is below GEO, and will do the inclination reduction at the wrong burn if sub-sync.  So the numbers from this program will be wrong for the sub-sync case, which this is.  Sorry, it should check for that and either do it right, or at least give a message, rather than silently doing it wrong.
Running solasto's implementation doesn't give any errors but I think it spits out a perigee speed that is lower than the apogee speed after the first burn and a corresponding negative delta v. This could be taken as a warning ;)

Doing a rough calculation by hand I got about 2200 m/s with a 500 m/s perigee burn to standard GTO and
about 1700 m/s from there.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: SpaceGoo on 07/22/2018 04:26 pm
Since TerreStar 1 was the previous record holder for largest commercial spacecraft to GEO and launched by Ariane Space to a geosynchronous transfer orbit, I am curious how the delta v compares to Telstar 19.  Does anyone know the delta v for TerreStar 1?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Sam Ho on 07/22/2018 05:30 pm
Since TerreStar 1 was the previous record holder for largest commercial spacecraft to GEO and launched by Ariane Space to a geosynchronous transfer orbit, I am curious how the delta v compares to Telstar 19.  Does anyone know the delta v for TerreStar 1?
Terrestar 1 was a standard GTO from Kourou, so GEO-1500 m/s.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: envy887 on 07/22/2018 05:33 pm
First stage cutoff was at 8170 km/hr = 2270 m/s.

This is exactly what we've seen on previous GTO with recovery missions.   So no big performance boost for block 5.

You don't consider the fact that they did this with a payload in excess of SEVEN TONS, as significant?
The extra payload mass is only a tiny fraction of the vehicle mass at staging.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: ZachF on 07/22/2018 05:59 pm
GTO-2275 @7075kg would back calculate to ~5,600 kg to GTO-1800... Which is also the official SpaceX number IIRC.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: GWR64 on 07/22/2018 06:23 pm
GTO-2275 @7075kg ...

gives about 3450 kg at BOL, (speculation,  imp: 323s, aerojet hipat engine with MMH )

compare to Echostar 19, also a SSL-1300 Satellite, has a dry mass of 3497 kg
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: soltasto on 07/22/2018 09:03 pm
I decided to rewrite the code from scratch to fix the issue and to write it in good C++, but I decided to also add a feature that finds the most efficient way to GEO. So now it will also scrub some of the inclination at perigee, just as much to reduce the total delta v budget.


Here is the github repository: https://github.com/AleLovesio/delta-v-to-GTO (The source files are in the source folder)

I also uploaded the files here as txts since the cpp and h extensions are not allowed even if in the end they are just text files.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: vaporcobra on 07/22/2018 11:24 pm
I decided to rewrite the code from scratch to fix the issue and to write it in good C++, but I decided to also add a feature that finds the most efficient way to GEO. So now it will also scrub some of the inclination at perigee, just as much to reduce the total delta v budget.


Here is the github repository: https://github.com/AleLovesio/delta-v-to-GTO (The source files are in the source folder)

I also uploaded the files here as txts since the cpp and h extensions are not allowed even if in the end they are just text files.

Could you compare with JCSAT-16? It's a close match telemetry-wise, but the final orbit from F9 was 184 km × 35,912 km × 20.85°.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: SpaceGoo on 07/23/2018 02:35 am
Since TerreStar 1 was the previous record holder for largest commercial spacecraft to GEO and launched by Ariane Space to a geosynchronous transfer orbit, I am curious how the delta v compares to Telstar 19.  Does anyone know the delta v for TerreStar 1?
Terrestar 1 was a standard GTO from Kourou, so GEO-1500 m/s.

Thanks.  I thought it would be interesting to compare Terrestar 1 to Telstar 19 since they have equivalent mass and SpaceX landed the first stage.  A recurring argument recently is that SpaceX is wasting fuel on reuse versus getting the satellite at or nearer to GEO.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 07/23/2018 02:50 am
Since TerreStar 1 was the previous record holder for largest commercial spacecraft to GEO and launched by Ariane Space to a geosynchronous transfer orbit, I am curious how the delta v compares to Telstar 19.  Does anyone know the delta v for TerreStar 1?
Terrestar 1 was a standard GTO from Kourou, so GEO-1500 m/s.

Thanks.  I thought it would be interesting to compare Terrestar 1 to Telstar 19 since they have equivalent mass and SpaceX landed the first stage.  A recurring argument recently is that SpaceX is wasting fuel on reuse versus getting the satellite at or nearer to GEO.

SpaceX isn't "wasting" fuel on reuse.  They sell a particular amount of performance at a good price and get to reuse their vehicle.  If you want to pay twice as much they'll give you the full performance of the rocket for a price similar to what most of the other launch providers charge.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: marsbase on 07/23/2018 03:39 am
  A recurring argument recently is that SpaceX is wasting fuel on reuse versus getting the satellite at or nearer to GEO.
Fuel is cheap.  Spacecraft are expensive. 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Comga on 07/23/2018 04:28 am
  A recurring argument recently is that SpaceX is wasting fuel on reuse versus getting the satellite at or nearer to GEO.
Fuel is cheap.  Spacecraft are expensive. 
And rockets are expensive
But if you are talking about the spacecraft, or the rocket, or the fuel, you are going to miss the point.
It’s a system. It needs a system solution.
They start with the subsystems they want on orbit
Then they figure out the best way to get them there in the fastest manner, with the least risk, balanced against the cost.
The SpaceX argument is that recovering the first stage is part of that optimization.
Telstar agreed.

And all the discussions of the heaviest geostationary are so much angels dancing on the head of a pin.
What we have mostly are the masses of the satellites plus their orbit insertion hardware.
You can argue all you want about whether they have one horn or two (Figure out that reference!) but there isn’t a real answer.   With the propulsion system systems included, the metric is confused.
Or we just use the mass as the spacecraft separates from the rocket. 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Pete on 07/23/2018 07:09 am
  A recurring argument recently is that SpaceX is wasting fuel on reuse versus getting the satellite at or nearer to GEO.

All that matters. *ALL* that matters, are:
1) Is the customer happy that their satellite was delivered where and how it was contracted to be?
and
2) Did the launcher gain benefit from providing this service?

The answers to this are yes, and yes.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: rower2000 on 07/23/2018 08:09 am
Since TerreStar 1 was the previous record holder for largest commercial spacecraft to GEO and launched by Ariane Space to a geosynchronous transfer orbit, I am curious how the delta v compares to Telstar 19.  Does anyone know the delta v for TerreStar 1?
Terrestar 1 was a standard GTO from Kourou, so GEO-1500 m/s.

Thanks.  I thought it would be interesting to compare Terrestar 1 to Telstar 19 since they have equivalent mass and SpaceX landed the first stage.  A recurring argument recently is that SpaceX is wasting fuel on reuse versus getting the satellite at or nearer to GEO.
The customer will calculate

Cost of launch to GTO-xxxx + cost of raising GTO-xxxx to GTO := A + B = total cost of launch

If the cost difference for orbit raising from GTO-2275 to GTO instead of GTO-1500 or GTO-1800 to GTO is less expensive than the added cost of Ariane/ULA/Younameit for delivery to GTO-1500 or GTO-1800, then there is no wasted fuel included, just $$$ saved for the customer.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: soltasto on 07/23/2018 09:14 am
I decided to rewrite the code from scratch to fix the issue and to write it in good C++, but I decided to also add a feature that finds the most efficient way to GEO. So now it will also scrub some of the inclination at perigee, just as much to reduce the total delta v budget.


Here is the github repository: https://github.com/AleLovesio/delta-v-to-GTO (The source files are in the source folder)

I also uploaded the files here as txts since the cpp and h extensions are not allowed even if in the end they are just text files.

Could you compare with JCSAT-16? It's a close match telemetry-wise, but the final orbit from F9 was 184 km × 35,912 km × 20.85°.

This is what I get with those numbers:

Current Orbit: 184.0000 km x 35912.0000 km x 20.8500 degrees;
Apogee Speed: 1590.7738 m/s; Perigee Speed: 10261.2798 m/s; delta v to this orbit: 0.0000


Super-sync transfer.

First maneuver:
Perigee changed to 35786km
Inclination changed to 0.0146 degrees
Current Orbit: 35786.0000 km x 35912.0000 km x 0.0146 degrees;
Apogee Speed: 3068.0452 m/s; Perigee Speed: 3077.2151 m/s; delta v to this orbit: 1679.4790


Second maneuver:
Apogee changed to 35786km
Inclination changed to 0.0146 degrees
Current Orbit: 35786.0000 km x 35786.0000 km x 0.0000 degrees;
Apogee Speed: 3074.9218 m/s; Perigee Speed: 3074.9218 m/s; delta v to this orbit: 1681.9025


Total delta v to GEO: 1681.9025 m/s
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: codav on 07/23/2018 12:33 pm
A recurring argument recently is that SpaceX is wasting fuel on reuse versus getting the satellite at or nearer to GEO.

Just a note on wasting fuel: if the satellite bus is large enough to hold a sizeable amount of fuel for orbit raising (understood the be about 3mt for Telstar 19V), it is way more efficient due to less overall mass to let the satellite raise itself to the final orbit than have the second stage do the job partially. It is just a tradeoff between the reduced cost of a reusable launch into a low-energy orbit or paying more for an expendable launch and gaining some additional years of in-orbit operations.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: marsbase on 07/23/2018 01:52 pm
A recurring argument recently is that SpaceX is wasting fuel on reuse versus getting the satellite at or nearer to GEO.

Just a note on wasting fuel: if the satellite bus is large enough to hold a sizeable amount of fuel for orbit raising (understood the be about 3mt for Telstar 19V), it is way more efficient due to less overall mass to let the satellite raise itself to the final orbit than have the second stage do the job partially. It is just a tradeoff between the reduced cost of a reusable launch into a low-energy orbit or paying more for an expendable launch and gaining some additional years of in-orbit operations.
Yes.  Another way to say it is that the satellite's propulsion system amounts to a thrid stage of the rocket. Drop the weight of the second stage empty tank and engine and keep going.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: ZachS09 on 07/23/2018 07:24 pm
It's possible that SpaceX used a Guidance-Commanded Shutdown for Stage 2 when the planned apogee was reached.

I ran this mission in Orbiter 2016 and let all the fuel in Stage 2 burn away, allowing a maximum apogee of 29,100 kilometers.

So, I think if SpaceX did a Minimum-Residual Shutdown for Stage 2, that apogee could have been reached.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: input~2 on 07/23/2018 07:47 pm
From the Catalog:2018-059A    43562    TELSTAR 19V    317.93 minutes    27.02 degrees    17862 km    243 km
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: IainMcClatchie on 07/24/2018 05:22 am
I noticed two odd things about the upper stage burn.

First at 17:46 in the video (https://youtu.be/xybp6zLaGx4?t=17m40s), you can see that a few seconds after the second stage has started up the flexible reflective fabric around the upper engine suddenly puffs up.  Does anyone know why that would happen?

Then, after a few more seconds, something at the bottom of the fabric covered area on the MVac makes a jerky motion about once per second.  I've circled the area where it happens in the attached picture.  Does anyone know what that might be?

Thanks!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: tyrred on 07/24/2018 06:01 am
The mylar blanket around the MVAC base is a beast of it's own, it has exhibited similar behavior over many of the past launches.  Go back and watch the last few launches for the beating heart of the Mvac.  Exhaust ports/relief valves in action?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Jarnis on 07/24/2018 06:35 am
You are looking at it in vacuum. Even a tiny bit of gas inside the blanket would "puff it up". Also once it is "puffed up", there is nothing to make it collapse again. Even if all that gas just escapes from under the blanket, it stays puffed up unless something pushes it from the outside.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 07/24/2018 09:22 am
Could you compare with JCSAT-16? It's a close match telemetry-wise, but the final orbit from F9 was 184 km × 35,912 km × 20.85°.

Using my all singing, all dancing GTO program I get the following values. Difference is 592 m/s. For those who don't have my program, it is attached.

Enter initial perigee height (km): 243
Enter initial apogee height (km): 17863
Enter required inclination change (deg): 27
theta1 =  0.34 deg, dv1 =  479.9 m/s
theta2 = 26.66 deg, dv2 = 1793.4 m/s
dv = 2273.3 m/s

Enter initial perigee height (km): 184
Enter initial apogee height (km): 35912
Enter required inclination change (deg): 20.85
theta1 = 20.83 deg, dv1 = 1678.8 m/s
theta2 =  0.02 deg, dv2 =    2.5 m/s
dv = 1681.3 m/s
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: envy887 on 07/24/2018 02:10 pm
You are looking at it in vacuum. Even a tiny bit of gas inside the blanket would "puff it up". Also once it is "puffed up", there is nothing to make it collapse again. Even if all that gas just escapes from under the blanket, it stays puffed up unless something pushes it from the outside.

Since the vehicle is accelerating, every part of it is under the force of its own weight. If it is disturbed by a puff of gas, it could "fall" back to it's original position.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: mn on 07/24/2018 02:11 pm
You are looking at it in vacuum. Even a tiny bit of gas inside the blanket would "puff it up". Also once it is "puffed up", there is nothing to make it collapse again. Even if all that gas just escapes from under the blanket, it stays puffed up unless something pushes it from the outside.

Sounds good in theory but all the videos show it repeatedly puffing
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Elmar Moelzer on 07/25/2018 07:08 pm
Seeing the stage returning on the droneship, it seems like it looks pretty clean considering that this was a pretty hot return. At least to me, it looks a lot cleaner than previous returned stages.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: IainMcClatchie on 07/25/2018 07:18 pm
I'm trying to imagine what would cyclically puff on an upper stage engine.  I thinking it wouldn't be anything to do with the main combustion path, but rather the guidance system.

A 1 Hz cycle seems slow, but maybe when the thrust vector control tweaks the firing direction of the MVac, it either leaks a little propellant into the mylar bag (inflating it), or it causes the exterior gas pressure around the top of the MVac to momentarily rise, which collapses the bag a little against an extremely tiny interior pressure.

The upper stage uses cold gas thrusters for roll control, right?  Maybe those things firing impinge on the bag a little.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: MarekCyzio on 07/26/2018 01:03 pm
Anybody noticed that one of the LOX tank panels is significantly darker?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: cppetrie on 07/26/2018 02:22 pm
Will be interesting to see if they fold up legs or remove them as they did with the first Block 5.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Alexphysics on 07/26/2018 02:36 pm
It seems they have disconnected the hydraulics from what The Aerospace Geek said yesterday on twitter so it's quite possible they'll remove them instead of folding them up. We'll see what happens
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: ugordan on 07/26/2018 02:54 pm
Anybody noticed that one of the LOX tank panels is significantly darker?

Even on the 1st block 5, I could discern (I think in prelaunch photos) that the top section of the LOX tank had a slightly different look, the area where the grid fins lockdown points are. I wonder if they're experimenting with different hydrophobic coatings or something.

It would also be interesting to know whether the noticeably less soot being deposited is due to such a coating or the fact they replaced the TPS around the engine area.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Alexphysics on 07/26/2018 03:59 pm
It seems they're going to manually retract the legs with cables running down from the lifting cap to the legs

This was the rumor that was going on since yesterday about the leg retraction:

https://twitter.com/MatthewCable6/status/1022285498612690944

Now it seems real:

https://twitter.com/ThAerospaceGeek/status/1022507131331911680

Edit: Another picture in this tweet (I don't know how to add photos here) of the cables being lowered down from the cap to the bottom

https://twitter.com/ken_kremer/status/1022514478355763200
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 07/26/2018 06:21 pm
It seems they're going to manually retract the legs with cables running down from the lifting cap to the legs

This was the rumor that was going on since yesterday about the leg retraction:

https://twitter.com/MatthewCable6/status/1022285498612690944 (https://twitter.com/MatthewCable6/status/1022285498612690944)

Now it seems real:

https://twitter.com/ThAerospaceGeek/status/1022507131331911680 (https://twitter.com/ThAerospaceGeek/status/1022507131331911680)

Edit: Another picture in this tweet (I don't know how to add photos here) of the cables being lowered down from the cap to the bottom

https://twitter.com/ken_kremer/status/1022514478355763200 (https://twitter.com/ken_kremer/status/1022514478355763200)
Personally I find this highly suspect. It's been common practice for SpaceX to run guy wires from cap to automatic tensioners on the ground to keep the rocket stable. To me these images look like they are rigging those lines. I'd be happy to be proven wrong however...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: envy887 on 07/26/2018 06:57 pm
It seems they're going to manually retract the legs with cables running down from the lifting cap to the legs

This was the rumor that was going on since yesterday about the leg retraction:

https://twitter.com/MatthewCable6/status/1022285498612690944 (https://twitter.com/MatthewCable6/status/1022285498612690944)

Now it seems real:

https://twitter.com/ThAerospaceGeek/status/1022507131331911680 (https://twitter.com/ThAerospaceGeek/status/1022507131331911680)

Edit: Another picture in this tweet (I don't know how to add photos here) of the cables being lowered down from the cap to the bottom

https://twitter.com/ken_kremer/status/1022514478355763200 (https://twitter.com/ken_kremer/status/1022514478355763200)
Personally I find this highly suspect. It's been common practice for SpaceX to run guy wires from cap to automatic tensioners on the ground to keep the rocket stable. To me these images look like they are rigging those lines. I'd be happy to be proven wrong however...

They are still runnign the guy wires; however, the guy wires appear to be indexed at 45 degree angles in between the legs, while the pulleys and drop cables are indexed directly over the legs.

See Julia's picture here:
https://twitter.com/julia_bergeron/status/1022548915953065984
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: TOG on 07/27/2018 12:47 am
Were  the fairings halves  recovered?

If you mean were they caught by a ship with the net on it?  No.  If the fairings had the recovery hardware installed, they may get picked up from the ocean surface.  But SpaceX doesn't currently have a fairing catching ship on the east coast.  Their only one Mr. Steven, which operates out of Los Angeles and attempts catching fairing halves from launches out of VAFB.  Next attempt will be on the upcoming Iridium 7 launch.

This is an actual headline on CNN:
       SpaceX loses multi million dollar fairing

The headline doesn't mention that the launch and primary mission were successful, nor does it mention that SpaceX landed the first stage in the worst conditions ever.  Nope, the headline is about how SpaceX FAILED to catch the fairing.

Wow, are we disappointed in SpaceX for failing to do something that has NEVER been done by anyone before. :o
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: TripleSeven on 07/27/2018 12:58 am
Were  the fairings halves  recovered?

If you mean were they caught by a ship with the net on it?  No.  If the fairings had the recovery hardware installed, they may get picked up from the ocean surface.  But SpaceX doesn't currently have a fairing catching ship on the east coast.  Their only one Mr. Steven, which operates out of Los Angeles and attempts catching fairing halves from launches out of VAFB.  Next attempt will be on the upcoming Iridium 7 launch.

This is an actual headline on CNN:
       SpaceX loses multi million dollar fairing

The headline doesn't mention that the launch and primary mission were successful, nor does it mention that SpaceX landed the first stage in the worst conditions ever.  Nope, the headline is about how SpaceX FAILED to catch the fairing.

Wow, are we disappointed in SpaceX for failing to do something that has NEVER been done by anyone before. :o
just saw the CNN story it was in my view not that negative I guess mileage might vary
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Chris Bergin on 07/27/2018 01:39 am
I pointed out the poor headline. (Note the headline is the reference, not the article).

Some journalists thought it was fine. (I didn't). Interesting thread:

https://twitter.com/NASASpaceflight/status/1022246752861282305

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: envy887 on 07/27/2018 03:06 am
Were  the fairings halves  recovered?

If you mean were they caught by a ship with the net on it?  No.  If the fairings had the recovery hardware installed, they may get picked up from the ocean surface.  But SpaceX doesn't currently have a fairing catching ship on the east coast.  Their only one Mr. Steven, which operates out of Los Angeles and attempts catching fairing halves from launches out of VAFB.  Next attempt will be on the upcoming Iridium 7 launch.

This is an actual headline on CNN:
       SpaceX loses multi million dollar fairing

The headline doesn't mention that the launch and primary mission were successful, nor does it mention that SpaceX landed the first stage in the worst conditions ever.  Nope, the headline is about how SpaceX FAILED to catch the fairing.

Wow, are we disappointed in SpaceX for failing to do something that has NEVER been done by anyone before. :o
just saw the CNN story it was in my view not that negative I guess mileage might vary

Negative is one thing. Factually incorrect is much another.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: catdlr on 07/27/2018 03:27 am
Didn't it only lose one half the fairing?  ::)

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=45846.msg1841409#msg1841409
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: deruch on 07/27/2018 04:58 am
Were  the fairings halves  recovered?

If you mean were they caught by a ship with the net on it?  No.  If the fairings had the recovery hardware installed, they may get picked up from the ocean surface.  But SpaceX doesn't currently have a fairing catching ship on the east coast.  Their only one Mr. Steven, which operates out of Los Angeles and attempts catching fairing halves from launches out of VAFB.  Next attempt will be on the upcoming Iridium 7 launch.

This is an actual headline on CNN:
       SpaceX loses multi million dollar fairing

The headline doesn't mention that the launch and primary mission were successful, nor does it mention that SpaceX landed the first stage in the worst conditions ever.  Nope, the headline is about how SpaceX FAILED to catch the fairing.

Wow, are we disappointed in SpaceX for failing to do something that has NEVER been done by anyone before. :o
The CNN coverage is about the Iridium-7 launch, not Telstar 19V.  Shouldn't this discussion be in that thread?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: ZachS09 on 07/27/2018 03:06 pm
Will the landing legs on Core B1047 be retracted this time, or will they remove the legs as always?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: ATPTourFan on 07/27/2018 05:23 pm
I don't think anyone knows for sure, but there are people watching at the Port and providing play by play updates on twitter. See the update thread.

Midday update: booster legs still attached, some venting seen from a nearby truck, and loud venting noises heard, something is happening......

https://mobile.twitter.com/ThAerospaceGeek/status/1022890678571941888
https://mobile.twitter.com/ThAerospaceGeek/status/1022869961021292545
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: matthewkantar on 07/27/2018 05:28 pm
The new truss/cap for lifting the booster looks like it has four small winches located over the legs. Looks like little weights on the cable so they can be lowered to connect to the end of the leg for folding em up.

We will see soon.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: MarekCyzio on 07/27/2018 06:02 pm
Looks like the legs will be retracted after all:
https://twitter.com/ThAerospaceGeek/status/1022904488611508224?s=20
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Comga on 07/28/2018 11:03 pm
SpaceX - First Leg Retract - Booster Lift 07-27-2018
USLaunchReport
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2tc2r3jwhE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2tc2r3jwhE)

Leg retract video
Dispite the narrator ‘s conjecture SpaceX is not going to rotate the new cap between leg retracts.
It is 4 way symmetric, as are the legs.
They will use the same two cables to retract the leg opposite the one videoed being retracted.
They will use the other two cables to retract the other two legs that are at 90 degrees to the first two.
( My certainty is based on logic, not insider info.)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: tj on 07/28/2018 11:25 pm
Looks like first two LAE burns were applied at perigee to raise the apogee.
Launch: 243 km x 17863 km,
After perigee burn 2:  299 km x 23181 km [from info on 25 July]
Still about 27 deg inclination
Probably blind perigee burns
[source: heavens-above.com]
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: russianhalo117 on 07/29/2018 06:23 pm
Welp, the raised leg was lowered and all 4 leg pistons have been removed, the leg raising was just a test it appears......

https://mobile.twitter.com/ken_kremer/status/1023610742237552643
or they had issues latching the leg. Remains to be confirmed.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: photonic on 07/29/2018 07:56 pm
Anyone knows where they needed the liquid nitrogen for? The tank can clearly be seen in the USLaunchReport video and in the pictures up thread.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: fake_name on 07/30/2018 01:51 am
Anyone knows where they needed the liquid nitrogen for? The tank can clearly be seen in the USLaunchReport video and in the pictures up thread.

A guess, but likely volume of LIN they wanted on site and availability of assets.

If the demand is withing the range that an atmospheric pressure build coil can be used (low flow rate but for a very long time) with a small high pressure LIN vessel it can be less hassle then using a big high pressure tube trailer.

There is a cutover point where a liquide vessel makes more sense then gas stock.

Edit: to be clear I'm suggesting they are vaporizing the LIN to GAN, not using the LIN directly.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: rsdavis9 on 07/30/2018 01:49 pm
Anyone knows where they needed the liquid nitrogen for? The tank can clearly be seen in the USLaunchReport video and in the pictures up thread.

My guess is to provide gaseous N2 for pressurizing the opposite side of the cylinders to cause the legs to retract themselves.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: envy887 on 07/30/2018 01:55 pm
Anyone knows where they needed the liquid nitrogen for? The tank can clearly be seen in the USLaunchReport video and in the pictures up thread.

My guess is to provide gaseous N2 for pressurizing the opposite side of the cylinders to cause the legs to retract themselves.

SpaceX uses gaseous nitrogen to purge and pressurize the booster itself, the tank of LN2 is almost certainly for that purpose.

The leg struts are probably one-way pneumatic rams. They can open, but not close themselves. That would be why they built the rig to mechanically close the legs.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: rsdavis9 on 07/30/2018 02:02 pm
I guess I am used to tractor and truck hydraulics that always have fittings on both sides of the piston. Is it that much harder to make a piston and cylinder to do both ways?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: envy887 on 07/30/2018 02:41 pm
I guess I am used to tractor and truck hydraulics that always have fittings on both sides of the piston. Is it that much harder to make a piston and cylinder to do both ways?

It adds some mass and complexity, and a double-acting telescoping ram doesn't get as much pull force as it does push force.

However, Pauline Acalin's latest photos show a high pressure line running to where the return port on a double acting telescoping ram should be, as well as holes in subsequent sections that would be needed for full powered retraction of all sections. So perhaps they did set it up for that.

Pneumatic line:
https://cdn.teslarati.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/F9-B1048-leg-hardware-pano-Pauline-Acalin-1c.jpg

Vent/retract pressurization holes:
https://cdn.teslarati.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/F9-B1048-recovery-details-Pauline-Acalin-11c.jpg
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: pb2000 on 08/03/2018 02:18 am
TELSTAR 19V   2018-059A      1387.88min   0.37deg   35706km   33969km

That was a big burn! Now only ~40m/s left to get to GEO, then moving to it's orbital slot.
I believe I heard something about a temporary slot for testing before moving into it's operational slot.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Telstar 19 Vantage : July 22, 2018 - DISCUSSION
Post by: Phillipsturtles on 03/10/2021 07:43 pm
Looks like another problem with a Maxar satellite. Hopefully this and SXM-7 failures aren't caused by the cost cutting Maxar has been doing.
https://twitter.com/pbdes/status/1369601260991700994

"Telesat’s T-19 Vantage satellite has suffered multiple failures of a battery-support component that, if compounded by further failures, could prevent the satellite from full operations during the two eclipse periods, with a combined duration of about three months per year."