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SpaceX Vehicles and Missions => SpaceX Missions Section => Topic started by: gongora on 05/05/2017 10:03 PM

Title: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 05/05/2017 10:03 PM
CRS-12 Discussion thread

NSF Threads for CRS-12 : Discussion (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42878.0) / Updates (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43347.0) / RNDZ, Berthing, ISS Ops - UPDATES (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43573.0) / L2 Coverage July-August (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43238.0) / Launch Viewing (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43429.0)

NSF Articles for CRS-12:
   SpaceX Falcon 9 conducts static fire as Falcon Heavy waits in the wings (https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/08/spacex-falcon-9-static-fire-falcon-heavy-waits/)
   SpaceX Falcon 9 set to launch CRS-12 Dragon mission to the ISS (https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/08/spacex-falcon-9-launch-crs-12-dragon-mission-iss/)
   Falcon 9 Block 4 debut a success, Dragon arrives for Station berthing (https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/08/falcon-9-block-4-debut-success-dragon-station-berthing/)

NSF Articles for CRS missions :  https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/?s=CRS (https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/?s=CRS)


Successful launch August 14, 2017 at 1231:37 EDT/1631 UTC on Falcon 9 on new booster (1039) from LC-39A.  RTLS landing successful.  Initial orbit targeting 200x360km.


External cargo: ISS-CREAM


Other SpaceX resources on NASASpaceflight:
   SpaceX News Articles (Recent) (http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/tag/spacex/)  /   SpaceX News Articles from 2006 (Including numerous exclusive Elon interviews) (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=21862.0)
   SpaceX Dragon Articles (http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/tag/dragon/)  /  SpaceX Missions Section (with Launch Manifest and info on past and future missions) (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?board=55.0)
   L2 SpaceX Section (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?board=60.0)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 05/05/2017 10:05 PM
ISS-CREAM home page at University of Maryland (http://cosmicray.umd.edu/iss-cream/)

•Payload total mass: 1258 kg
•Payload Dimensions: 1.85 m x 0.95 m x 1 m
•Placed on the Japanese Experiment Module Exposed Facility (JEM-EF) for a 3-year operation
•The CREAM instrument requires zenith viewing for optimal science results.

ISS-CREAM to Tackle Century-Old Space Mystery (https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/news/iss_cream.html)
Quote
Research that started aboard balloons a century ago will soon culminate in a three-year stint aboard the International Space Station as scientists work on solving a fundamental astrophysics mystery: what gives cosmic rays such incredible energies, and how does that affect the composition of the universe?

"The answer is one the world's been waiting on for 100 years," said Vernon Jones, program scientist for particle astrophysics at NASA.

Cosmic Ray Energetics and Mass (CREAM) will be the first cosmic ray instrument designed to detect at such higher energy ranges, and over such an extended duration in space. Scientists hope to discover whether cosmic rays are accelerated by a single cause, which is believed to be supernovae. The new research also could determine why there are fewer cosmic rays detected at very high energies than are theorized to exist.

"Cosmic rays are energetic particles from outer space," said Eun-Suk Seo, principal investigator for the CREAM study. "They provide a direct sample of matter from outside the solar system. Measurements have shown that these particles can have energies as high as 100,000 trillion electron volts. This is an enormous energy, far beyond and above any energy that can be generated with manmade accelerators, even the Large Hadron Collider at CERN."

Researchers also plan to study the decline in cosmic ray detection, called the spectral "knee" that occurs at about a thousand trillion electron-volts (eV), which is about 2 billion times more powerful than the emissions in a medical nuclear imaging scan. Whatever causes cosmic rays, or filters them as they move through the galaxy, takes a bite out of the population from 1,000 trillion electron-volts upwards. Further, the spectrum for cosmic rays extends much farther beyond what supernovas are believed to be able to produce.

To tackle these questions, NASA plans to place CREAM aboard the space station, becoming ISS-CREAM. The instrument has flown six times for a total of 161 days on long-duration balloons circling the South Pole, where Earth's magnetic field lines are essentially vertical.

ISS-CREAM is being developed as an international collaboration, including teams from the United States, Republic of Korea, Mexico and France, led by Professor Eun-Suk Seo of the University of Maryland in College Park, Md.

The idea of energetic particles coming from space was unknown in 1911 when Victor Hess, the 1936 Nobel laureate in physics credited for the discovery of cosmic rays, took to the air to tackle the mystery of why materials became more electrified with altitude, an effect called ionization. The expectation was that the ionization would weaken as one got farther from Earth. Hess developed sensitive instruments and took them as high as 3.3 miles (5.3 kilometers) and he established that ionization increased up to fourfold with altitude, day or night.

The phenomenon soon gained a popular but confusing name, cosmic rays, from a mistaken theory that they were X-rays or gamma rays, which are electromagnetic radiation, like light. Instead, cosmic rays are high-speed, high-energy particles of matter.

As particles, cosmic rays cannot be focused like light in a telescope. Instead, researchers detect cosmic rays by the light and electrical charges produced when the particles slam into matter. The scientists then use detective work to identify the original particle by direct measurement of its electric charge and its energy determination from the avalanche of debris particles creating their own overlapping trails.

CREAM does this trace work using an ionization calorimeter designed to make cosmic rays shed their energies. Layers of carbon, tungsten and other materials present well-known nuclear "cross sections" within the stack. Electrical and optical detectors measure the intensity of events as cosmic particles, from hydrogen to iron, crash through the instrument.

Even though CREAM balloon flights reached high altitudes, enough atmosphere remained above to interfere with measurements. The plan to mount the instrument to the exterior of the space station will place it above the obscuring effects of the atmosphere, at an altitude of 250 miles (400 kilometers).

"This experiment has the advantage of very large collecting power," Seo said of the balloon-borne flights. "Ground-based experiments can have larger collecting power, but they are limited in that they cannot tell what initiated cosmic ray showers at the top of the atmosphere. By flying our instruments in space we get much longer exposures, and we measure the particles before they interact with the upper atmosphere, thereby directly measuring primary cosmic rays."

Researchers are rearranging CREAM's existing hardware so it can attach to the Exposed Facility platform extending from Kibo, the space station's Japanese Experiment Module, after its planned launch in 2014. The space station operates as a platform for instruments like CREAM that otherwise might not fly, due to the expense of dedicated satellites. "We're using a capability that the world has built," Jones said. "The space station makes it affordable."

"Every day on space station will reduce our statistical uncertainties and extend our measurements to higher energies than previously possible," Seo explained. "Another big advantage is not having atmospheric background. Among the particles that we look at, there are secondary particles that are produced by the interaction of cosmic rays with the interstellar medium during their propagation. These particles are used to probe the history of propagation of cosmic rays. Unfortunately, these particles can also be produced from the interaction with atmospheric nuclei. So this atmospheric background is a limiting factor."

Protons are the most common cosmic rays. Fewer and fewer particles are detected as one looks at higher energies. Jones said the cosmic ray flux should obey a simple power law distribution, but instead the spectral "knee" indicating rather abrupt steepening is observed.

A better understanding of cosmic rays will help scientists finish the work started when Hess unexpectedly turned an earthly question into a stellar riddle. Answering that riddle will help us understand a hidden, fundamental facet of how our galaxy, and perhaps the universe, is built and works.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/06/2017 02:39 PM
Something else interesting hopefully on CRS-12:

Quote
Made In Space: Manufacturing fiber optic cable could become the first space-based industry

MAY 4, 2017 BY KENDRA R CHAMBERLAIN

https://thedownlink.co/2017/05/04/made-in-space-manufacturing-fiber-optic-cable-could-become-the-first-space-based-industry/ (https://thedownlink.co/2017/05/04/made-in-space-manufacturing-fiber-optic-cable-could-become-the-first-space-based-industry/)

Includes:

Quote
Made In Space has built what it calls a “miniature fiber-pulling machine” that’s about the size of a microwave oven, which will be flown to the International Space Station (ISS) later this summer on SpaceX’s Dragon.

So CRS 12 I assume?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Comga on 05/06/2017 07:23 PM
Something else interesting hopefully on CRS-12:

Quote
Made In Space: Manufacturing fiber optic cable could become the first space-based industry

MAY 4, 2017 BY KENDRA R CHAMBERLAIN

https://thedownlink.co/2017/05/04/made-in-space-manufacturing-fiber-optic-cable-could-become-the-first-space-based-industry/ (https://thedownlink.co/2017/05/04/made-in-space-manufacturing-fiber-optic-cable-could-become-the-first-space-based-industry/)

Includes:

Quote
Made In Space has built what it calls a “miniature fiber-pulling machine” that’s about the size of a microwave oven, which will be flown to the International Space Station (ISS) later this summer on SpaceX’s Dragon.

So CRS 12 I assume?

Fascinating
Using the upper limit of $3000/meter, and the density of 4.5 g/cm^3, 250 micron fiber would be worth ~$10M/kg.
That's enough to make manufacturing in space commercially viable, if someone doesn't figure out how to compete on the ground. And if they can automate and modularize the hardware sufficiently.
Perhaps this should be discussed its own thread.  Any suggestions?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 05/06/2017 10:38 PM
Is there some overlap in the cosmic ray energy levels to be observed by CREAM and currently observed by AMS?

If so, this should provide some confirmation of each other's data?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 05/07/2017 06:49 AM
Perhaps this should be discussed its own thread.  Any suggestions?

The 3D printing in space thread (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=35889.0) is where ZBLAN has been discussed so far. rberry has now posted (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=35889.msg1675418#msg1675418) confirmation of CRS-12 and that the experiment will also return on Dragon at the end of August.

Edit to add: it's known as the Optical Fiber Production in Microgravity (OFPIM) Experiment (see here (http://www.spacestationresearch.com/research-on-station/projects/?wpv_view_count=3152-TCPID1536&wpv_post_search=OFPIM&project-status%5B%5D=&wpv-category=0&project-location-state%5B%5D=&wpv_filter_submit=Search))
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 05/09/2017 04:39 PM
Upcoming ELaNa CubeSat Launches (https://www.nasa.gov/content/upcoming-elana-cubesat-launches)
Quote
ELaNa 22
Date:  NET August 1, 2017
Mission: SpaceX-12 – Falcon 9 FT, Cape Canaveral Air Force Station, Fla.
7 CubeSat Missions scheduled to be deployed

    ASTERIA – Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, Mass.
    RBLE – NASA Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md.
    LAICE – University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, Urbana, Ill.
    HARP – University of Maryland, Baltimore County, Baltimore, Md.
    OSIRUS-3U – Pennsylvania State University, University Park, Pa.
    OPAL – Utah State University, Logan, Utah
    OPEN – University of North Dakota, Grand Forks, N.D
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: jpo234 on 06/13/2017 10:35 AM
Article about the upgrade to the Light Microscopy Module going to the ISS with the "upcoming SpaceX cargo resupply mission" which should be CRS-12:
http://www.parabolicarc.com/2017/06/13/2d-3d-space-station-microscope-upgrade/
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 06/13/2017 11:48 AM
So, I'm thinking first CRS-12 and then OTV-5?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: ChrisGebhardt on 06/13/2017 12:02 PM
So, I'm thinking first CRS-12 and then OTV-5?

If you're asking about the launch manifest order, CRS-12 carries a NET date of 1 August.  X-37B is currently NET August.

This article covers the known launch manifest for August: https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/06/bulgariasat-launch-spacex-secures-x-37b-contract/
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: sewebster on 06/14/2017 01:41 AM
So, I'm thinking first CRS-12 and then OTV-5?

If you're asking about the launch manifest order, CRS-12 carries a NET date of 1 August.  X-37B is currently NET August.


Aren't "NET 1 August" and "NET August" equivalent statements?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: envy887 on 06/14/2017 02:00 AM
So, I'm thinking first CRS-12 and then OTV-5?

If you're asking about the launch manifest order, CRS-12 carries a NET date of 1 August.  X-37B is currently NET August.


Aren't "NET 1 August" and "NET August" equivalent statements?

No, the first means tentatively scheduled for 1 Aug. The second means sometime in August, maybe later.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Olaf on 06/29/2017 08:47 PM
Upcoming ELaNa CubeSat Launches (https://www.nasa.gov/content/upcoming-elana-cubesat-launches)
Quote
ELaNa 22
Date:  NET August 1, 2017
Mission: SpaceX-12 – Falcon 9 FT, Cape Canaveral Air Force Station, Fla.
7 CubeSat Missions scheduled to be deployed

    ASTERIA – Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, Mass.
    RBLE – NASA Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md.
    LAICE – University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, Urbana, Ill.
    HARP – University of Maryland, Baltimore County, Baltimore, Md.
    OSIRUS-3U – Pennsylvania State University, University Park, Pa.
    OPAL – Utah State University, Logan, Utah
    OPEN – University of North Dakota, Grand Forks, N.D
According to http://mstl.atl.calpoly.edu/~workshop/archive/2017/Spring/Day%202%20/Session%202/3_GarrettSkrobot.pdf
OPAL is now part of ELaNa XXIII NET April 2018.

edit/gongora: attached pdf
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: DreamyPickle on 07/06/2017 12:11 AM
As far as I understand this is the next SpaceX launch, scheduled for August after a relatively long break because of range issues.

It is possible for CRS-12 to launch from LC40? This would allow LC39A to go down for Falcon Heavy upgrades *immediately*.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Star One on 07/06/2017 12:17 AM
As far as I understand this is the next SpaceX launch, scheduled for August after a relatively long break because of range issues.

It is possible for CRS-12 to launch from LC40? This would allow LC39A to go down for Falcon Heavy upgrades *immediately*.
They are not range issues but standard planned maintenance.

The answer to your other two questions is no & no.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 07/06/2017 12:18 AM
As far as I understand this is the next SpaceX launch, scheduled for August after a relatively long break because of range issues.

It is possible for CRS-12 to launch from LC40? This would allow LC39A to go down for Falcon Heavy upgrades *immediately*.

There's no indication that LC-40 will be ready to support a launch in the next 4-1/2 weeks.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: AncientU on 07/06/2017 12:20 AM
As far as I understand this is the next SpaceX launch, scheduled for August after a relatively long break because of range issues.

It is possible for CRS-12 to launch from LC40? This would allow LC39A to go down for Falcon Heavy upgrades *immediately*.

They should get some of the RSS taken down and maybe work on the launch mount for FH. 
Bet they will be quite busy...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Star One on 07/06/2017 12:23 AM
As far as I understand this is the next SpaceX launch, scheduled for August after a relatively long break because of range issues.

It is possible for CRS-12 to launch from LC40? This would allow LC39A to go down for Falcon Heavy upgrades *immediately*.

They should get some of the RSS taken down and maybe work on the launch mount for FH. 
Bet they will be quite busy...
I imagine they will let people know when things are ready. It's not something that they are likely to avoid publicising.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: cppetrie on 07/06/2017 12:25 AM
I think there is a decent chance that OTV-5 at the end of August could be the first launch out of 40 assuming the public timeline of August holds. It's an Air Force payload and perhaps they'd like it to launch off their base.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: guckyfan on 07/06/2017 07:57 AM
I think there is a decent chance that OTV-5 at the end of August could be the first launch out of 40 assuming the public timeline of August holds. It's an Air Force payload and perhaps they'd like it to launch off their base.

They will install vertical integration capabilities at LC-39A. So it seems this is not a concern for the Airforce.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: M.E.T. on 07/06/2017 08:26 AM
I think there is a decent chance that OTV-5 at the end of August could be the first launch out of 40 assuming the public timeline of August holds. It's an Air Force payload and perhaps they'd like it to launch off their base.

They will install vertical integration capabilities at LC-39A. So it seems this is not a concern for the Airforce.

LC40 might not be ready for CRS-12, but maybe by August 10 SpaceX can make a safe bet on it being ready for the X37-B launch, which is scheduled for end of August. If so, they can start FH related construction work on LC39 immediately after the CRS-12 launch, which reduces the LC39A "downtime" loss by a good 3 weeks or so, compared to if they have to first launch X37-B from LC39A too, at the end of August.

So bottomline, on August 10 SpaceX will probably have to make a call on whether they have enough faith that LC40 will be up in running by end of August to take LC39A down for upgrade work. That would probably be the ideal scenario.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Star One on 07/06/2017 10:07 AM
I think there is a decent chance that OTV-5 at the end of August could be the first launch out of 40 assuming the public timeline of August holds. It's an Air Force payload and perhaps they'd like it to launch off their base.

They will install vertical integration capabilities at LC-39A. So it seems this is not a concern for the Airforce.

LC40 might not be ready for CRS-12, but maybe by August 10 SpaceX can make a safe bet on it being ready for the X37-B launch, which is scheduled for end of August. If so, they can start FH related construction work on LC39 immediately after the CRS-12 launch, which reduces the LC39A "downtime" loss by a good 3 weeks or so, compared to if they have to first launch X37-B from LC39A too, at the end of August.

So bottomline, on August 10 SpaceX will probably have to make a call on whether they have enough faith that LC40 will be up in running by end of August to take LC39A down for upgrade work. That would probably be the ideal scenario.

You haven't asked whether the Air Force would be happy for the X-37B to be the first launch off a freshly minted pad.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: cppetrie on 07/06/2017 03:10 PM
I think there is a decent chance that OTV-5 at the end of August could be the first launch out of 40 assuming the public timeline of August holds. It's an Air Force payload and perhaps they'd like it to launch off their base.

They will install vertical integration capabilities at LC-39A. So it seems this is not a concern for the Airforce.
OTV-5 doesn't require vertical integration. I'm not suggesting they wouldn't be ok with launching some of their birds from KSC, I'm just suggesting that when either pad will do, they might prefer LC-40. We're straying off topic though.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Chris Bergin on 07/12/2017 08:44 PM
Good pad shakedown report (again). Static Fire NET August 6.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: AstroMelly on 07/16/2017 09:03 PM
Hi Everyone,

Might be the wrong place to post this as this thread appears to be mission related but here goes!

My family and I will be in Florida from August 10th - 24th (apart from 19th-21st when we will be in Nashville for the eclipse) and I would really love to see a launch.  I just noticed that this flight is scheduled for Aug 10th so...

What would be the best resource for:

1. tracking launch manifests (I am using spaceflightnow.com at the moment which seems to be very good.
2. info about launch 'viewing areas' - do we need to find one?  Do we need tickets or what?  I reckon you'd be able to see this for many miles away so might not be necessary
3. more info - as a launch virgin I really have no idea what to expect apart from last minute scrubs and plenty of dark looks from my family...
4. Are we expecting this to be a stage 1 return mission (are they all from now on?) and if so, when do we find out where they will try and land it - it would be great to see it land back on the pad!

If this post is in the wrong place and admin want to move it to a more appropriate area I quite understand.

Cheers from the UK
Iain
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 07/16/2017 09:12 PM
Hi Everyone,

Might be the wrong place to post this as this thread appears to be mission related but here goes!

My family and I will be in Florida from August 10th - 24th (apart from 19th-21st when we will be in Nashville for the eclipse) and I would really love to see a launch.  I just noticed that this flight is scheduled for Aug 10th so...

What would be the best resource for:

1. tracking launch manifests (I am using spaceflightnow.com at the moment which seems to be very good.
2. info about launch 'viewing areas' - do we need to find one?  Do we need tickets or what?  I reckon you'd be able to see this for many miles away so might not be necessary
3. more info - as a launch virgin I really have no idea what to expect apart from last minute scrubs and plenty of dark looks from my family...
4. Are we expecting this to be a stage 1 return mission (are they all from now on?) and if so, when do we find out where they will try and land it - it would be great to see it land back on the pad!

If this post is in the wrong place and admin want to move it to a more appropriate area I quite understand.

Cheers from the UK
Iain

Ben Cooper's site (http://www.launchphotography.com/Delta_4_Atlas_5_Falcon_9_Launch_Viewing.html) has some good tips on launch and landing viewing.  This flight should have the booster come back to the LZ-1 landing site, so that may be a factor in where you go to watch.  There are also several threads from past launches you can look at, such as this one from CRS-10 (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42220.0).  For keeping track of the launch date, any of the major sites should work (your current source, this site, Reddit).  You may want to check in advance with Kennedy Space Center to see what viewing sites they'll have available, and whether Playalinda Beach will be open.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: deptrai on 07/17/2017 07:10 PM
Will CRS-12 be a new build or is it a Dragon that has previously flown (like CRS-11)?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: jpo234 on 07/17/2017 07:23 PM
Will CRS-12 be a new build or is it a Dragon that has previously flown (like CRS-11)?
It will be Dragon SN C113. This might be the last new Dragon v1 ever made. There are reports that the Dragon v1 production line is now closed.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: vaporcobra on 07/18/2017 06:01 AM
Will CRS-12 be a new build or is it a Dragon that has previously flown (like CRS-11)?
It will be Dragon SN C113. This might be the last new Dragon v1 ever made. There are reports that the Dragon v1 production line is now closed.

If true, I'd assume SpaceX will thus rely on reused Dragons for the rest of CRS Phase 1? It was my understanding that Phase 1 would utilize Dragon 1 throughout all missions. SpaceX has 9 more CRS 1 missions to fly, following 2015's add-ons.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: woods170 on 07/18/2017 08:12 AM
Will CRS-12 be a new build or is it a Dragon that has previously flown (like CRS-11)?
It will be Dragon SN C113. This might be the last new Dragon v1 ever made. There are reports that the Dragon v1 production line is now closed.

If true, I'd assume SpaceX will thus rely on reused Dragons for the rest of CRS Phase 1? It was my understanding that Phase 1 would utilize Dragon 1 throughout all missions. SpaceX has 9 more CRS 1 missions to fly, following 2015's add-ons.
Correct assumption. Dragon 1 will be used for the entire run of CRS 1 missions. The last all-new Dragon 1 pressure hull was constructed some time ago. Beyond CRS-12  it will be all re-used pressure hulls for CRS 1 missions.

thus, what basically has been shut down is the production line for Dragon 1 pressure hulls. This is due to SpaceX needing the tooling for the (slightly) different pressure hulls of Dragon 2 (aka Crew Dragon).

The rest of the Dragon 1 production line has NOT been shut down. Dragon 1 requires substantial refurbishment for re-use and the production lines for several components (that need replacing after each mission) are up-and-running for 8 more CRS 1 missions to come.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: guckyfan on 07/18/2017 08:26 AM
thus, what basically has been shut down is the production line for Dragon 1 pressure hulls. This is due to SpaceX needing the tooling for the (slightly) different pressure hulls of Dragon 2 (aka Crew Dragon).

The rest of the Dragon 1 production line has NOT been shut down. Dragon 1 requires substantial refurbishment for re-use and the production lines for several components (that need replacing after each mission) are up-and-running for 8 more CRS 1 missions to come.

The first reflown Dragon needed substantial refurbishment. Just like the first reflown F9 stage. I believe they have learned from it and subsequent refurbishments will be less substantial, though not down to just ínspection.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lars-J on 07/18/2017 04:16 PM
thus, what basically has been shut down is the production line for Dragon 1 pressure hulls. This is due to SpaceX needing the tooling for the (slightly) different pressure hulls of Dragon 2 (aka Crew Dragon).

The rest of the Dragon 1 production line has NOT been shut down. Dragon 1 requires substantial refurbishment for re-use and the production lines for several components (that need replacing after each mission) are up-and-running for 8 more CRS 1 missions to come.

The first reflown Dragon needed substantial refurbishment. Just like the first reflown F9 stage. I believe they have learned from it and subsequent refurbishments will be less substantial, though not down to just ínspection.

It's not the same at all. Reuse of Dragon 1 will always need substantial work, since major components are replaced. (including the heat shield and all the entire exterior coverings)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: kevin-rf on 07/18/2017 04:41 PM
It's not the same at all. Reuse of Dragon 1 will always need substantial work, since major components are replaced. (including the heat shield and all the entire exterior coverings)
I thought the heat shield was good for multiple reentries.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: AncientU on 07/18/2017 04:50 PM
It's not the same at all. Reuse of Dragon 1 will always need substantial work, since major components are replaced. (including the heat shield and all the entire exterior coverings)
I thought the heat shield was good for multiple reentries.

Entries, yes.  Dips in the ocean, no.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: guckyfan on 07/18/2017 04:51 PM
It's not the same at all. Reuse of Dragon 1 will always need substantial work, since major components are replaced. (including the heat shield and all the entire exterior coverings)
I thought the heat shield was good for multiple reentries.

Probably not if dipped into water on landing. Still, installing another heatshield and outer shell are not like disassembly and reassembly with many new parts. I also think the upper shell in the future may need cleaning and repainting rather than replacing. The new position of the parachutes also seem to make it easier to retain the outer shell.

I would have loved to see Dragon landing. But as long as Elon skips a goal to replace it with a new higher goal towards Mars I will be satisfied.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Karloss12 on 07/18/2017 06:12 PM
thus, what basically has been shut down is the production line for Dragon 1 pressure hulls. This is due to SpaceX needing the tooling for the (slightly) different pressure hulls of Dragon 2 (aka Crew Dragon).

The rest of the Dragon 1 production line has NOT been shut down. Dragon 1 requires substantial refurbishment for re-use and the production lines for several components (that need replacing after each mission) are up-and-running for 8 more CRS 1 missions to come.

The first reflown Dragon needed substantial refurbishment. Just like the first reflown F9 stage. I believe they have learned from it and subsequent refurbishments will be less substantial, though not down to just ínspection.

It's not the same at all. Reuse of Dragon 1 will always need substantial work, since major components are replaced. (including the heat shield and all the entire exterior coverings)

Is the need for extensive refurbishment due to water only.
I ask because if an extensive refurbishment is required for the Dragon 1 with its protective heat sheild and outer covering, then what does that say about the the asperations that SpaceX has for reusing the F9 2nd stage?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lars-J on 07/18/2017 06:40 PM
I ask because if an extensive refurbishment is required for the Dragon 1 with its protective heat sheild and outer covering, then what does that say about the the asperations that SpaceX has for reusing the F9 2nd stage?

That space is hard?  ;)  It depends on the technologies involved... The current Dragon 1 heat shield is ablative, and even though it could perhaps be reused, they will always fly with a new one. But a better non-ablative heatshield technology could allow for less refurbishment. SpaceX continues to improve Pica-X, and they are likely working on something even better for the future. (ITS will certainly need something better).
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: vaporcobra on 07/18/2017 06:46 PM
thus, what basically has been shut down is the production line for Dragon 1 pressure hulls. This is due to SpaceX needing the tooling for the (slightly) different pressure hulls of Dragon 2 (aka Crew Dragon).

The rest of the Dragon 1 production line has NOT been shut down. Dragon 1 requires substantial refurbishment for re-use and the production lines for several components (that need replacing after each mission) are up-and-running for 8 more CRS 1 missions to come.


The first reflown Dragon needed substantial refurbishment. Just like the first reflown F9 stage. I believe they have learned from it and subsequent refurbishments will be less substantial, though not down to just ínspection.

It's not the same at all. Reuse of Dragon 1 will always need substantial work, since major components are replaced. (including the heat shield and all the entire exterior coverings)

Is the need for extensive refurbishment due to water only.
I ask because if an extensive refurbishment is required for the Dragon 1 with its protective heat sheild and outer covering, then what does that say about the the asperations that SpaceX has for reusing the F9 2nd stage?

Basically. Saltwater is not kind to aerospace hardware. Saltwater intrusion and corrosion are effectively unassailable barriers to cost-effective refurbishment and rapid reuse.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: deptrai on 07/18/2017 07:00 PM
Basically. Saltwater is not kind to aerospace hardware. Saltwater intrusion and corrosion are effectively unassailable barriers to cost-effective refurbishment and rapid reuse.
This is why I don't understand how they re-used Draco Thrusters.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: vaporcobra on 07/18/2017 07:19 PM
Basically. Saltwater is not kind to aerospace hardware. Saltwater intrusion and corrosion are effectively unassailable barriers to cost-effective refurbishment and rapid reuse.
This is why I don't understand how they re-used Draco Thrusters.

Yep. It's hard to know if they actually did, but I would assume SpaceX did reuse them, as long as it was more cost effective than producing new ones.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: whitelancer64 on 07/18/2017 07:44 PM
Basically. Saltwater is not kind to aerospace hardware. Saltwater intrusion and corrosion are effectively unassailable barriers to cost-effective refurbishment and rapid reuse.
This is why I don't understand how they re-used Draco Thrusters.

Thorough cleaning. There's probably a plug in the neck of the nozzle, so it shouldn't be that invasive.

To clarify that, the lead designer of SpaceX's rocket engines, Tom Mueller, has a patent for a pintle injector that uses a nozzle plug. While I am sure that level of design information for the Draco thruster is not publicly available, it seems reasonable to me that it's plausible that it may have been built that way. It would certainly make cleaning easier.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 07/19/2017 10:57 PM
Tweet from Jeff Foust: (https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/887697754054578176)
Quote
[Andrew Rush, Made In Space]: have built and qualified a pilot mfg facility for high-quality ZBLAN optical fibers. Scheduled to fly to ISS on SpX-13. #ISSRDC

Looks like the fiber optic manufacturing equipment has slipped to the next flight.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 07/19/2017 11:04 PM
[Janes] US Army expects to soon trial Kestrel Eye electro-optical micro satellites (http://www.janes.com/article/72406/us-army-expects-to-soon-trial-kestrel-eye-electro-optical-micro-satellites)
Quote
“The Kestrel Eye is due to launch from Cape Canaveral very soon as part of the International Space Station cargo resupply mission,” according to Lieutenant General James Dickinson, head of US Army Space and Missile Defense Command/Army Forces Strategic Command (SMDC/ARSTRAT).

This doesn't explicitly say CRS-12.  Does anyone know for sure if this will be on CRS-12 or CRS-13?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: russianhalo117 on 07/21/2017 12:17 AM
[Janes] US Army expects to soon trial Kestrel Eye electro-optical micro satellites (http://www.janes.com/article/72406/us-army-expects-to-soon-trial-kestrel-eye-electro-optical-micro-satellites)
Quote
“The Kestrel Eye is due to launch from Cape Canaveral very soon as part of the International Space Station cargo resupply mission,” according to Lieutenant General James Dickinson, head of US Army Space and Missile Defense Command/Army Forces Strategic Command (SMDC/ARSTRAT).

This doesn't explicitly say CRS-12.  Does anyone know for sure if this will be on CRS-12 or CRS-13?
Skyrocket has had it listed on CRS-12.
Source: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kestrel-eye.htm
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Comga on 07/21/2017 04:36 AM
[Janes] US Army expects to soon trial Kestrel Eye electro-optical micro satellites (http://www.janes.com/article/72406/us-army-expects-to-soon-trial-kestrel-eye-electro-optical-micro-satellites)
Quote
“The Kestrel Eye is due to launch from Cape Canaveral very soon as part of the International Space Station cargo resupply mission,” according to Lieutenant General James Dickinson, head of US Army Space and Missile Defense Command/Army Forces Strategic Command (SMDC/ARSTRAT).

This doesn't explicitly say CRS-12.  Does anyone know for sure if this will be on CRS-12 or CRS-13?
Skyrocket has had it listed on CRS-12.
Source: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kestrel-eye.htm (http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/kestrel-eye.htm)
Skyrocket says
Quote
The first Kestrel Eye satellite will be launched as a secondary payload on a Falcon-9 v1.2 launch to the ISS
Will it be released from the second stage after Dragon separates, or will it be carried in the trunk and if so, released before of after the CRS-12 stay at the ISS?
The first of those three options seems most probable, but that's just a guess.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 07/21/2017 04:50 AM
Skyrocket says
Quote
The first Kestrel Eye satellite will be launched as a secondary payload on a Falcon-9 v1.2 launch to the ISS
Will it be released from the second stage after Dragon separates, or will it be carried in the trunk and if so, released before of after the CRS-12 stay at the ISS?
The first of those three options seems most probable, but that's just a guess.

I think it's going up as pressurized cargo and being launched through the Japanese airlock with the Kaber deployer.
https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/2163.html (https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/2163.html)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 07/21/2017 03:37 PM
Per the schedule change - when was the last time both coasts have satellite launchers flying on the same day? Atlas V/NROL-42 was supposed to fly a few hours before this one from Vandenberg!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Michael Baylor on 07/21/2017 07:41 PM
I am excited that the launch has been delayed. I now have the opportunity to possibly fly to Florida and see it.

This will be a 48 hour turn around in the event of a scrub correct? I want to make sure I have enough days in the event of a short delay.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: macpacheco on 07/21/2017 09:57 PM
I am excited that the launch has been delayed. I now have the opportunity to possibly fly to Florida and see it.

This will be a 48 hour turn around in the event of a scrub correct? I want to make sure I have enough days in the event of a short delay.
Scrub delays are variable but usually 24 hours.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: IanThePineapple on 07/21/2017 10:12 PM
I am excited that the launch has been delayed. I now have the opportunity to possibly fly to Florida and see it.

This will be a 48 hour turn around in the event of a scrub correct? I want to make sure I have enough days in the event of a short delay.
Scrub delays are variable but usually 24 hours.

If there's a big problem they could do 48 hour turnaround
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 07/21/2017 10:23 PM
Part of the decision on scrub turnarounds will depend on whether the biological experiments need to be swapped out (there will be more mice).
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Comga on 07/22/2017 12:05 AM
Skyrocket says
Quote
The first Kestrel Eye satellite will be launched as a secondary payload on a Falcon-9 v1.2 launch to the ISS
Will it be released from the second stage after Dragon separates, or will it be carried in the trunk and if so, released before of after the CRS-12 stay at the ISS?
The first of those three options seems most probable, but that's just a guess.

I think it's going up as pressurized cargo and being launched through the Japanese airlock with the Kaber deployer.
https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/2163.html (https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/2163.html)
That's the answer.
Quote
ISS crew assembly procedures have been prepared to guide the crew through proper and safe assembly of the NanoRacks-KE IIM. JEM airlock and MSS SPDM operations are governed by the standard operations in place for those resources. Following deployment by the NanoRacks Kaber deployer, the NanoRacks-KE IIM begins nominal mission operations limited by its orbital lifetime expected to be approximately six months.
Thanks
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Michael Baylor on 07/22/2017 01:30 AM
I am excited that the launch has been delayed. I now have the opportunity to possibly fly to Florida and see it.

This will be a 48 hour turn around in the event of a scrub correct? I want to make sure I have enough days in the event of a short delay.
Scrub delays are variable but usually 24 hours.
Yes, but the last Dragon mission was a 48 hour because of the late load needing to be replaced. I was wondering if anyone had any info for this one, but I guess we will just have to wait and see. Hopefully it's 24.  :P
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Jarnis on 07/22/2017 10:39 PM
I am excited that the launch has been delayed. I now have the opportunity to possibly fly to Florida and see it.

This will be a 48 hour turn around in the event of a scrub correct? I want to make sure I have enough days in the event of a short delay.
Scrub delays are variable but usually 24 hours.
Yes, but the last Dragon mission was a 48 hour because of the late load needing to be replaced. I was wondering if anyone had any info for this one, but I guess we will just have to wait and see. Hopefully it's 24.  :P

Wrong answer. Hopefully its NO SCRUBS.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Michael Baylor on 07/22/2017 10:44 PM
Wrong answer. Hopefully its NO SCRUBS.
Too risky to plan a trip assuming that though.  :'(
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Michael Baylor on 07/23/2017 09:05 PM
I am excited that the launch has been delayed. I now have the opportunity to possibly fly to Florida and see it.

This will be a 48 hour turn around in the event of a scrub correct? I want to make sure I have enough days in the event of a short delay.

Super risky to plan a trip around this launch. Instant launch windows are notorious for scrubs, and this is is an afternoon flight in FL in August. A scrub because of thunderstorms is also a likely outcome.
I am taking numerous precautions. I am going to pay extra for a plane ticket that can be rescheduled in the event that the launch is postponed. I will be there for several days so that I can take a few scrubs. But most importantly, if all goes wrong and I don't see a launch I will still have fun.  :) I will tour KSC (haven't done that in years), go to Port Canaveral and try and see the drone ship, and a few other non-space related activities.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lar on 07/24/2017 02:22 AM
Good answers!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 07/24/2017 04:29 PM
Tweet from Jeff Foust (https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/889515336608907264):
Quote
Scimemi’s slide on upcoming SpX-12 states that it will be the last to use “new build” Dragon; rest of CRS missions will be reused capsules.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: ChrisGebhardt on 07/25/2017 05:01 PM
Part of the decision on scrub turnarounds will depend on whether the biological experiments need to be swapped out (there will be more mice).

Is this confirmed (i.e. can you point me to a link)?  I'm writing up an article about CRS-12 and I'd like to take about scrub turnaround options if there are going to be mouse-tronauts on CRS-12.  Thanks.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: ChrisGebhardt on 07/25/2017 06:05 PM
Part of the decision on scrub turnarounds will depend on whether the biological experiments need to be swapped out (there will be more mice).

Is this confirmed (i.e. can you point me to a link)?  I'm writing up an article about CRS-12 and I'd like to take about scrub turnaround options if there are going to be mouse-tronauts on CRS-12.  Thanks.

Confirmed by NASA Kennedy PAO.  "There are rodents." 🐭🐭🐭

Rodent Research 9 for NASA and the Mouse Habitat Unit - 2 (or Mouse House) for JAXA.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: ChrisGebhardt on 07/26/2017 04:17 PM
I am excited that the launch has been delayed. I now have the opportunity to possibly fly to Florida and see it.

This will be a 48 hour turn around in the event of a scrub correct? I want to make sure I have enough days in the event of a short delay.

Super risky to plan a trip around this launch. Instant launch windows are notorious for scrubs, and this is is an afternoon flight in FL in August. A scrub because of thunderstorms is also a likely outcome.
I am taking numerous precautions. I am going to pay extra for a plane ticket that can be rescheduled in the event that the launch is postponed. I will be there for several days so that I can take a few scrubs. But most importantly, if all goes wrong and I don't see a launch I will still have fun.  :) I will tour KSC (haven't done that in years), go to Port Canaveral and try and see the drone ship, and a few other non-space related activities.

So... I'd been wanting to post this here about your travel plans, but couldn't until the article was out. There's a potentially tricky situation with CRS-12's launch as they might only have a single day to get off the ground because of the upcoming Russian EVA.  It's all here: https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/07/tdrs-priority-crs-12-dragon-launch-dates-realign/
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 07/26/2017 04:49 PM
As mentioned in Chris G.'s article on the CRS-12 scheduling issues, the mice going up on this flight are for Rodent Research-9, not Rodent Research-6.  I guess #6 will be on one of the next couple Dragon missions.

[Ohio University] Biology Alum Sending Rodent Research Project to International Space Station (http://www.ohio-forum.com/2017/07/biology-alum-sending-rodent-research-project-international-space-station/)
[NASA] Rodent Research-9 (https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/2440.html)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: rockets4life97 on 07/26/2017 10:35 PM
Any chance this moves back to the 10th? Or has the schedule realignment already done its damage?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: ChrisGebhardt on 07/26/2017 10:50 PM
Any chance this moves back to the 10th? Or has the schedule realignment already done its damage?

It might have already done its damage with ISS crew schedules, mission processing, and readiness all having been realigned to the 14th.  Also, remember, SpaceX requested 14 Aug last Friday... four days before NASA requested the 10th for TDRS-M (which means there has been six days of realigned work flows already -- including the realigned Static Fire date of 9 Aug).  So the slip might not have been 100% TDRS-M and might have involved other factors.

That said, we'll see what tomorrow brings.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 07/27/2017 01:08 AM
This is a really nice gesture, but if the article is correct about which flight it's on and when they did it, then I'm really confused about the current SpaceX booster inventory.  Weren't we thinking the CRS-12 booster was already at the Cape?

[KWTX] SpaceX pays tribute to local teen whose death sparked a movement (http://www.kwtx.com/content/news/Space-X-pays-tribute-to-local-teen-whose-death-sparked-a-movement-436752003.html)
Quote
MCGREGOR, Texas (KWTX) The next rocket SpaceX launches will carry a tribute to Rhett Hering, the 15-year-old son of McGregor’s mayor whose death in an ATV accident in 2015 sparked the creation of a community-wide service project called the “Rhett Revolution.”
The “Rhett Revolution” sticker was placed on the interior of a Falcon 9 rocket first stage booster, which is scheduled for launch in August. (Photo by Julie Hays)

On Tuesday night, McGregor Mayor Jimmy Herrng, his wife Lorna and their children, Mara and Ryan, were invited to a hangar at SpaceX's rocket research and development facility in McGregor, to place a “Rhett Revolution” sticker on the interior of a Falcon 9 rocket first stage booster, which is scheduled for launch next month.
...

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: old_sellsword on 07/27/2017 01:26 AM
This is a really nice gesture, but if the article is correct about which flight it's on and when they did it, then I'm really confused about the current SpaceX booster inventory.  Weren't we thinking the CRS-12 booster was already at the Cape?

Not yet. 1038 finished testing and headed back west, 1039 was last seen heading to McGregor, and 1040 just left Hawthorne.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Swoopert on 07/27/2017 11:36 AM
The “Rhett Revolution” sticker was placed on the interior of a Falcon 9 rocket first stage booster, which is scheduled for launch in August. (Photo by Julie Hays) (http://www.kwtx.com/content/news/Space-X-pays-tribute-to-local-teen-whose-death-sparked-a-movement-436752003.html)

What part of the booster is that? One of the leg "fairings"?

Edit: fixed quote
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: stcks on 07/27/2017 12:28 PM
The “Rhett Revolution” sticker was placed on the interior of a Falcon 9 rocket first stage booster, which is scheduled for launch in August. (Photo by Julie Hays) (http://www.kwtx.com/content/news/Space-X-pays-tribute-to-local-teen-whose-death-sparked-a-movement-436752003.html)

What part of the booster is that? One of the leg "fairings"?

Edit: fixed quote

No, it is the cover for one of the QD plates (probably the LOX one)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 07/27/2017 12:34 PM
The “Rhett Revolution” sticker was placed on the interior of a Falcon 9 rocket first stage booster, which is scheduled for launch in August. (Photo by Julie Hays) (http://www.kwtx.com/content/news/Space-X-pays-tribute-to-local-teen-whose-death-sparked-a-movement-436752003.html)

What part of the booster is that? One of the leg "fairings"?

Edit: fixed quote

No, it is the cover for one of the QD plates (probably the LOX one)
Hope the adhesives on that sticker are compatible with high ppO2 environments. Don’t want it bursting into flames or anything.  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Swoopert on 07/27/2017 01:08 PM
What part of the booster is that? One of the leg "fairings"?

No, it is the cover for one of the QD plates (probably the LOX one)

For the few of you on this thread like myself who would have had to look that up, that's a Quick-Disconnect plate which is at the base of the booster used to swiftly and safely detach from the GSE LOX flow through the TSMs (Tail Service Masts) at liftoff :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: mn on 07/27/2017 03:40 PM
Part of the decision on scrub turnarounds will depend on whether the biological experiments need to be swapped out (there will be more mice).

Is this confirmed (i.e. can you point me to a link)?  I'm writing up an article about CRS-12 and I'd like to take about scrub turnaround options if there are going to be mouse-tronauts on CRS-12.  Thanks.

Confirmed by NASA Kennedy PAO.  "There are rodents." 🐭🐭🐭

Rodent Research 9 for NASA and the Mouse Habitat Unit - 2 (or Mouse House) for JAXA.

Sorry I can't remember or find where this was posted, but I'm sure I've seen a post by someone who seemed to be in the know about the mice swapping options, they explained that they prepare two sets of mice and each set can handle a single 24 scrub, so that means you attempt on day 1, again on day 2 and then if needed you need to swap to try day 4 and 5.

Perhaps that post was specific to that launch and not a general rule?

For CRS-11 and the 48 delay on the first scrub, it's possible that they elected to swap after one scrub because the weather was expected to be bad on the 2nd and much better on the 3rd, if they attempted on the 2nd and scrubbed they'd lose the opportunity to launch on the 3rd, so they elected to swap after one scrub and give themselves better chance on the 3rd. (just speculation)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: abaddon on 07/27/2017 03:56 PM
With the TDRS launch slipping to the 20th, is the 14th still safe?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: russianhalo117 on 07/27/2017 04:38 PM
With the TDRS launch slipping to the 20th, is the 14th still safe?
at this time yes.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: ChrisGebhardt on 07/27/2017 05:18 PM
Part of the decision on scrub turnarounds will depend on whether the biological experiments need to be swapped out (there will be more mice).

Is this confirmed (i.e. can you point me to a link)?  I'm writing up an article about CRS-12 and I'd like to take about scrub turnaround options if there are going to be mouse-tronauts on CRS-12.  Thanks.

Confirmed by NASA Kennedy PAO.  "There are rodents." 🐭🐭🐭

Rodent Research 9 for NASA and the Mouse Habitat Unit - 2 (or Mouse House) for JAXA.

Sorry I can't remember or find where this was posted, but I'm sure I've seen a post by someone who seemed to be in the know about the mice swapping options, they explained that they prepare two sets of mice and each set can handle a single 24 scrub, so that means you attempt on day 1, again on day 2 and then if needed you need to swap to try day 4 and 5.

Perhaps that post was specific to that launch and not a general rule?

For CRS-11 and the 48 delay on the first scrub, it's possible that they elected to swap after one scrub because the weather was expected to be bad on the 2nd and much better on the 3rd, if they attempted on the 2nd and scrubbed they'd lose the opportunity to launch on the 3rd, so they elected to swap after one scrub and give themselves better chance on the 3rd. (just speculation)

No.  CRS-11 was a 48hr scrub in part for mice swap and would have been another 48hr scrub had the 2nd attempt not worked for the mice too.

How the mice are prepared has to do with what's being investigated.  Not to go into detail (because it's not pleasant for everyone), but for CRS-10, there were not two sets of mice completely prepared ahead of time.

The statement on this thread and in the article on site that the turnaround options for CRS-12 are in part driven by the biological samples headed to Station is correct.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: ChrisGebhardt on 07/27/2017 05:20 PM
With the TDRS launch slipping to the 20th, is the 14th still safe?
at this time yes.

To further this (and moderate note as well), as with all launches, once launch date requests are confirmed to Chris B, he will always post those immediately in the public threads.  If there's no update posted, then there's no update to the launch dates.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: WindyCity on 08/05/2017 10:40 PM
https://www.army.mil/article/191708/smdc_prepares_for_upcoming_kestrel_eye_launch

REDSTONE ARSENAL, Alabama -- One U.S. Army Space and Missile Defense Command/Army Forces Strategic Command team is preparing for an out of this world product launch.

The USASMDC/ARSTRAT Technical Center's Kestrel Eye is a small, low-cost, visible-imagery satellite designed to provide images rapidly to the tactical-level ground Warfighter.

Forgive my ignorance. Are military payloads permitted to be serviced by the ISS? From the article, I gathered that the station crew will deploy the Kestrel Eye directly from the Dragon, so it won't ever be "aboard" the station. Still, it seems to me that other ISS partners might look askance at an operation that used the station to help test U.S. military hardware. What is the policy in this regard?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 08/05/2017 11:00 PM
https://www.army.mil/article/191708/smdc_prepares_for_upcoming_kestrel_eye_launch

REDSTONE ARSENAL, Alabama -- One U.S. Army Space and Missile Defense Command/Army Forces Strategic Command team is preparing for an out of this world product launch.

The USASMDC/ARSTRAT Technical Center's Kestrel Eye is a small, low-cost, visible-imagery satellite designed to provide images rapidly to the tactical-level ground Warfighter.

Forgive my ignorance. Are military payloads permitted to be serviced by the ISS? From the article, I gathered that the station crew will deploy the Kestrel Eye directly from the Dragon, so it won't ever be "aboard" the station. Still, it seems to me that other ISS partners might look askance at an operation that used the station to help test U.S. military hardware. What is the policy in this regard?

Kestrel Eye will go up as pressurized cargo and be deployed through the airlock on the Japanese module, just like lots of other small satellites (although it isn't a cubesat, it will need to use the larger deployer.)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 08/06/2017 08:54 AM
Forgive my ignorance. Are military payloads permitted to be serviced by the ISS?

This is not the first time that a military cubesat has been deployed from the ISS. The US/Australian Biarri military cubesat was deployed from the ISS on 18 May. There may also be other military cubesats that have been deployed that we don't know about. That might explain why Nanoracks is so secretive in announcing the payloads they are launching to ISS.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Star One on 08/06/2017 11:34 AM
Forgive my ignorance. Are military payloads permitted to be serviced by the ISS?

This is not the first time that a military cubesat has been deployed from the ISS. The US/Australian Biarri military cubesat was deployed from the ISS on 18 May. There may also be other military cubesats that have been deployed that we don't know about. That might explain why Nanoracks is so secretive in announcing the payloads they are launching to ISS.

I thought even an organisation as secretive as the NRO still announced their cubesats.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Skyrocket on 08/06/2017 03:49 PM
Forgive my ignorance. Are military payloads permitted to be serviced by the ISS?

This is not the first time that a military cubesat has been deployed from the ISS. The US/Australian Biarri military cubesat was deployed from the ISS on 18 May. There may also be other military cubesats that have been deployed that we don't know about. That might explain why Nanoracks is so secretive in announcing the payloads they are launching to ISS.

Biarri-Point is quite a mystery, as it has been claimed to be deployed, but has not been catalogized. I am not sure, if it has been indeed deployed. Perhaps it was to be deployed and was left stuck in the deployer. Or it remained stuck to another cubesat and has a shared ID with this one.

As other military satellites were deployed from the ISS openly announced and catalogized (e.g. SPINSAT, SHARC) and as Biarri is not particularly classified, i am not sure, what might have happened to Biarri-Point. 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 08/07/2017 08:06 AM
Biarri-Point is quite a mystery, as it has been claimed to be deployed, but has not been catalogized. I am not sure, if it has been indeed deployed. Perhaps it was to be deployed and was left stuck in the deployer. Or it remained stuck to another cubesat and has a shared ID with this one.

Biarri-Point has been deployed. At the South Australian Space Forum on 7 June, a defence presentation mentioned that it had been deployed from ISS on 18 May and was being tested before the payload was turned on. They even showed a photo of it in orbit. I don't know why it hasn't been catalogued.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Olaf on 08/07/2017 08:22 AM
Biarri-Point is quite a mystery, as it has been claimed to be deployed, but has not been catalogized. I am not sure, if it has been indeed deployed. Perhaps it was to be deployed and was left stuck in the deployer. Or it remained stuck to another cubesat and has a shared ID with this one.

Biarri-Point has been deployed. At the South Australian Space Forum on 7 June, a defence presentation mentioned that it had been deployed from ISS on 18 May and was being tested before the payload was turned on. They even showed a photo of it in orbit. I don't know why it hasn't been catalogued.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32006.msg1710574#msg1710574
Quote
Maybe the mistery of Biarri-Point is solved?
https://twitter.com/planet4589/status/894330390055444481
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 08/08/2017 08:07 AM
Here's the official Australian press release.

https://www.minister.defence.gov.au/minister/christopher-pyne/media-releases/australian-defence-delivers-world-first-gps-cube-satellite

It points to these images from the Australian defence.

https://images.defence.gov.au/S20171744

Found some other images of Biarri-Point. This matches the SHARC cubesat. Attached is image showing SHARC being ejected from ISS.

https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/1350.html

SHARC was deployed on 17 May.

https://blogs.nasa.gov/stationreport/2017/05/17/iss-daily-summary-report-5172017/
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: OnWithTheShow on 08/08/2017 05:24 PM
Static fire still on for tomorrow?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 08/09/2017 09:50 AM
Moved to 1000-1600 local time on Thursday 8/10.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: mn on 08/10/2017 03:24 PM
Issue resolved. Pushing for rollout soon. [Static fire] Window opens 8am local.

Anyone willing to share info on the 'issue', or is this a subtle advertisement for L2 ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: First Mate Rummey on 08/10/2017 03:51 PM
Is this a block 4 F9? If so what are the improvements vs B3?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: macpacheco on 08/10/2017 04:04 PM
Is this a block 4 F9? If so what are the improvements vs B3?
From the best that I can gather, the term Block III/IV/V is a bad way to name it.
SpaceX isn't rolling all Block IV or Block V features in a single step. Its a gradual process. And I doubt SpaceX will want to tells us exactly what's in or not, except maybe as L2 type off the record discussions (yes there are some, if you really want to know everything you can, you need L2 access).
At some point Elon is likely to say all Block IV features to booster and US have been rolled in, but at that point the first Block V features will be in too, should we call that a Block IV or a Block V ? In my view the real Block V is when all planned features are in, not when just a few are.
That's all you'll get from me, as I don't want to loose L2 access !
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Star One on 08/10/2017 05:52 PM
Station-bound instrument to open new chapter in the story of cosmic rays

Quote
Physicists are gearing up to send a re-engineered science instrument originally designed for lofty balloon flights high in Earth’s atmosphere to the International Space Station next week to broaden their knowledge of cosmic rays, subatomic particles traveling on intergalactic routes that could hold the key to unlocking mysteries about supernovas, black holes, pulsars and dark matter.

Fastened in the cargo bay of a SpaceX Dragon capsule, the cosmic ray observatory will be robotically connected to a port outside the space station’s Japanese Kibo laboratory for a three-year science campaign sampling cosmic rays, particles accelerated to nearly the speed of light by violent and mysterious forces in the distant universe.

https://spaceflightnow.com/2017/08/09/station-bound-instrument-to-open-new-chapter-in-the-story-of-cosmic-rays/
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: old_sellsword on 08/10/2017 07:02 PM
Is this a block 4 F9? If so what are the improvements vs B3?

This is the first Block 4 first stage. Block 4 second stages have been flying for some time now.

We’ve heard about thrust upgrades and things like bolted octawebs, but nothing super concrete.

It’s basically just a bunch of small hardware upgrades they threw together on their way up to Block 5. We probably wouldn’t even notice the upgrade, especially considering we didn’t notice the Block 2 and 3 upgrades.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: whitelancer64 on 08/10/2017 07:17 PM
Is this a block 4 F9? If so what are the improvements vs B3?

This is the first Block 4 first stage. Block 4 second stages have been flying for some time now.

We’ve heard about thrust upgrades and things like bolted octawebs, but nothing super concrete.

It’s basically just a bunch of small hardware upgrades they threw together on their way up to Block 5. We probably wouldn’t even notice the upgrade, especially considering we didn’t notice the Block 2 and 3 upgrades.

I've been assuming that block 2 was the v1.1 and block 3 was the v1.2. I'm going to be interested to see if the launch permits call the block 4 the v1.3.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: old_sellsword on 08/10/2017 07:19 PM
Is this a block 4 F9? If so what are the improvements vs B3?

This is the first Block 4 first stage. Block 4 second stages have been flying for some time now.

We’ve heard about thrust upgrades and things like bolted octawebs, but nothing super concrete.

It’s basically just a bunch of small hardware upgrades they threw together on their way up to Block 5. We probably wouldn’t even notice the upgrade, especially considering we didn’t notice the Block 2 and 3 upgrades.

I've been assuming that block 2 was the v1.1 and block 3 was the v1.2. I'm going to be interested to see if the launch permits call the block 4 the v1.3.

They won’t.

They’ve flown v1.2 Block 1, v1.2 Block 2, v1.2 Block 3, and v1.2 Block 4 all under the same permit for “Falcon 9 v1.2”
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: russianhalo117 on 08/10/2017 08:51 PM
Is this a block 4 F9? If so what are the improvements vs B3?

This is the first Block 4 first stage. Block 4 second stages have been flying for some time now.

We’ve heard about thrust upgrades and things like bolted octawebs, but nothing super concrete.

It’s basically just a bunch of small hardware upgrades they threw together on their way up to Block 5. We probably wouldn’t even notice the upgrade, especially considering we didn’t notice the Block 2 and 3 upgrades.
you will notice some of the block 4 differences if you have a good eye and watch the flight footage and not all are small differences but most are. I'll leave you with that until launch day.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 08/11/2017 01:46 PM
Interesting comment in the launch weather forecast (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43347.msg1711690#msg1711690):

Quote
After landing Monday, storm chances will increase, potentially impacting first stage securing.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: flyright on 08/11/2017 02:22 PM
Not sure if this a concern or not: loss of redundancy for ISS S-band transponder string.
From ISS Expedition-52 thread.
Added bold.


ISS Daily Summary Report – 8/09/2017

Posted on August 9, 2017 at 4:00 pm by HQ.
 

...

Remote Power Controller Module (RPCM) P12B_B Trip: This RPC powers the S-Band transponder for String 2. There were no impacts to voice or telemetry as S-Band String 1 was and continues to be prime. String 2 was in hot backup for ACS/UHF Audio Interface (AUAI) troubleshooting. The trip signature indicates a Field Effect Transistor (FET) Hybrid failure which would be the first occurrence for this RPC.  Multiple closure attempts of RPC 10 were performed with no success. Two fully functional strings of ISS S-band are required per the SpaceX Launch Commit Criteria (LCC) Flight Rule. Teams met this morning to discuss and recommend a forward plan. This is an external RPCM that can be Removed and Replaced (R&R) by the Special Purpose Dexterous Manipulator (SPDM).
...

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 08/11/2017 02:35 PM
Not sure if this a concern or not: loss of redundancy for ISS S-band transponder string.
From ISS Expedition-52 thread.
...

This is in the August 10 report (https://blogs.nasa.gov/stationreport/2017/08/10/iss-daily-summary-report-8102017/):
Quote
Ku Band Contingency Command and Telemetry (CCT) Checkout: In response to the loss of S-Band redundancy due to the loss of power to the S-Band-2 transponder, ground teams completed a checkout of the Ku-Band CCT command and voice capability.  During the test all control centers, including Sp-X Mission Control, successfully sent test commands to ISS via Ku-Band.  Additionally, Ku-Band voice between ISS and MCC-Moscow was verified in the event this is needed during the upcoming Russian Extra-Vehicular Activity (EVA).   
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Joffan on 08/11/2017 03:47 PM
Interesting comment in the launch weather forecast (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43347.msg1711690#msg1711690):

Quote
After landing Monday, storm chances will increase, potentially impacting first stage securing.

Bring on the land-based octocrab (https://twitter.com/abbygarrettX/status/880189564953821185)!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 08/11/2017 06:37 PM
L-3 Launch Weather Forecast.
70% go for launch day
80% go for 24 hours scrub

I see 70% for both days.

Very curious. I see 20% POV in forecast on-line at:
http://www.patrick.af.mil/Portals/14/documents/Weather/L-3%20Forecast%2014%20Aug%20Launch.pdf?ver=2017-08-11-090016-473
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 08/11/2017 06:49 PM
L-3 Launch Weather Forecast.
70% go for launch day
80% go for 24 hours scrub

I see 70% for both days.

Very curious. I see 20% POV in forecast on-line at:
http://www.patrick.af.mil/Portals/14/documents/Weather/L-3%20Forecast%2014%20Aug%20Launch.pdf?ver=2017-08-11-090016-473

Hmmm.  I see 30/30 at
http://www.patrick.af.mil/Portals/14/documents/Weather/L-3%20Forecast%2014%20Aug%20Launch%20v2.pdf?ver=2017-08-11-113720-100 (http://www.patrick.af.mil/Portals/14/documents/Weather/L-3%20Forecast%2014%20Aug%20Launch%20v2.pdf?ver=2017-08-11-113720-100)

Apparently it was updated even though it lists the same time.

Edit: found on the Patrick AFB Weather Page (http://www.patrick.af.mil/about-us/weather)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 08/11/2017 07:18 PM
Thanks. Yes they updated & appear to have forgotten to update time of issue.

When I did my previous post the 45th's weather page pointed to the old (20%) version but as you say it's now showing the new (30%) version.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Star One on 08/11/2017 08:33 PM
SpaceX is launching a supercomputer to the International Space Station

Quote
For the year-long experiment, astronauts will install the computer inside a rack in the Destiny module of the space station. It is about the size of two pizza boxes stuck together. And while the device is not exactly a state-of-the-art supercomputer—it has a computing speed of about 1 teraflop—it is the most powerful computer sent into space. Unlike most computers, it has not been hardened for the radiation environment aboard the space station. The goal is to better understand how the space environment will degrade the performance of an off-the-shelf computer.
During the next year, the spaceborne computer will continuously run through a set of computing benchmarks to determine its performance over time. Meanwhile, on the ground, an identical copy of the computer will run in a lab as a control.
If the test is successful, it will open the door to the use of even more powerful computers aboard the space station and other spacecraft NASA is developing to send humans farther into space. Fernandez said HPE also envisions that scientists could eventually use an on-board supercomputer for data processing of their experiments on the station, rather than clogging the limited bandwidth between space and ground with raw data.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/08/spacex-is-launching-a-supercomputer-to-the-international-space-station/ (https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/08/spacex-is-launching-a-supercomputer-to-the-international-space-station/)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Zed_Noir on 08/12/2017 03:44 AM
SpaceX is launching a supercomputer to the International Space Station

Quote
For the year-long experiment, astronauts will install the computer inside a rack in the Destiny module of the space station. It is about the size of two pizza boxes stuck together. And while the device is not exactly a state-of-the-art supercomputer—it has a computing speed of about 1 teraflop—it is the most powerful computer sent into space. Unlike most computers, it has not been hardened for the radiation environment aboard the space station. The goal is to better understand how the space environment will degrade the performance of an off-the-shelf computer.
During the next year, the spaceborne computer will continuously run through a set of computing benchmarks to determine its performance over time. Meanwhile, on the ground, an identical copy of the computer will run in a lab as a control.
If the test is successful, it will open the door to the use of even more powerful computers aboard the space station and other spacecraft NASA is developing to send humans farther into space. Fernandez said HPE also envisions that scientists could eventually use an on-board supercomputer for data processing of their experiments on the station, rather than clogging the limited bandwidth between space and ground with raw data.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/08/spacex-is-launching-a-supercomputer-to-the-international-space-station/ (https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/08/spacex-is-launching-a-supercomputer-to-the-international-space-station/)

A not so "Supercomputer" several generations behind the current state of the art  IMO. Maybe this experiment could be follow up with a Nvidia Tegra SoC (system on a chip) architecture computer. Which can be modified from a current automotive central processor.

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: JamesH65 on 08/12/2017 10:08 AM
There are already a couple of Raspberry Pi's on the Iss using off the shelf Soc's. Not sure whether they have had any radiation issues. I'll find out!

Edit. Ok, so the Pi's on the Iss have had no detections or unexpected reboots on the six months they have been in use. The laptops onboard reboot about once a week. The Pi's are in thick Ali case s though, which could explain it.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: AncientU on 08/12/2017 02:48 PM
SpaceX is launching a supercomputer to the International Space Station

Quote
For the year-long experiment, astronauts will install the computer inside a rack in the Destiny module of the space station. It is about the size of two pizza boxes stuck together. And while the device is not exactly a state-of-the-art supercomputer—it has a computing speed of about 1 teraflop—it is the most powerful computer sent into space. Unlike most computers, it has not been hardened for the radiation environment aboard the space station. The goal is to better understand how the space environment will degrade the performance of an off-the-shelf computer.
During the next year, the spaceborne computer will continuously run through a set of computing benchmarks to determine its performance over time. Meanwhile, on the ground, an identical copy of the computer will run in a lab as a control.
If the test is successful, it will open the door to the use of even more powerful computers aboard the space station and other spacecraft NASA is developing to send humans farther into space. Fernandez said HPE also envisions that scientists could eventually use an on-board supercomputer for data processing of their experiments on the station, rather than clogging the limited bandwidth between space and ground with raw data.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/08/spacex-is-launching-a-supercomputer-to-the-international-space-station/ (https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/08/spacex-is-launching-a-supercomputer-to-the-international-space-station/)

A not so "Supercomputer" several generations behind the current state of the art  IMO. Maybe this experiment could be follow up with a Nvidia Tegra SoC (system on a chip) architecture computer. Which can be modified from a current automotive central processor.

Intel just introduced a teraflop processor for desktop computers.  $1,999.00
Fast, but not hardly a supercomputer -- that would be pentaflops...

http://www.popsci.com/intel-teraflop-chip
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Star One on 08/12/2017 03:11 PM
SpaceX is launching a supercomputer to the International Space Station

Quote
For the year-long experiment, astronauts will install the computer inside a rack in the Destiny module of the space station. It is about the size of two pizza boxes stuck together. And while the device is not exactly a state-of-the-art supercomputer—it has a computing speed of about 1 teraflop—it is the most powerful computer sent into space. Unlike most computers, it has not been hardened for the radiation environment aboard the space station. The goal is to better understand how the space environment will degrade the performance of an off-the-shelf computer.
During the next year, the spaceborne computer will continuously run through a set of computing benchmarks to determine its performance over time. Meanwhile, on the ground, an identical copy of the computer will run in a lab as a control.
If the test is successful, it will open the door to the use of even more powerful computers aboard the space station and other spacecraft NASA is developing to send humans farther into space. Fernandez said HPE also envisions that scientists could eventually use an on-board supercomputer for data processing of their experiments on the station, rather than clogging the limited bandwidth between space and ground with raw data.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/08/spacex-is-launching-a-supercomputer-to-the-international-space-station/ (https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/08/spacex-is-launching-a-supercomputer-to-the-international-space-station/)

A not so "Supercomputer" several generations behind the current state of the art  IMO. Maybe this experiment could be follow up with a Nvidia Tegra SoC (system on a chip) architecture computer. Which can be modified from a current automotive central processor.

Intel just introduced a teraflop processor for desktop computers.  $1,999.00
Fast, but not hardly a supercomputer -- that would be pentaflops...

http://www.popsci.com/intel-teraflop-chip

If you wanted to be charitable it's a supercomputer in space computer terms.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Kansan52 on 08/12/2017 03:46 PM
Opinion Alert.

First, the   article states this is not the most powerful computer available. It is a pathfinder that could lead to more powerful computers.

Second, it is a trade off between hardening and cost.

Third, it is more powerful than any other  computer on board. It will speed research on the station if it works.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: macpacheco on 08/12/2017 03:56 PM
Opinion Alert.

First, the   article states this is not the most powerful computer available. It is a pathfinder that could lead to more powerful computers.

Second, it is a trade off between hardening and cost.

Third, it is more powerful than any other  computer on board. It will speed research on the station if it works.
Let me add that power consumption is a very important factor at the ISS. Intel CPUs can be really fast, but are not the best teraflops/Watt ratio.
If you send a modest size super computer cluster to the ISS, you need to also ship a few tons of solar panels, batteries and cables to upgrade the electrical capacity of the station.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Welsh Dragon on 08/12/2017 04:07 PM
Wouldn't cooling capacity be a massive problem too? The radiators have a limited capacity and computing generates a lot of heat. To the point that large data centres are being moved to the Arctic.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: docmordrid on 08/12/2017 04:29 PM
If it's anything like NVIDIA's DGX-1 it pulls about 3.2kW, and each DGX-1 in a rack can deliver up to 170 TFLOP's.  Of course more is better.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Nomadd on 08/12/2017 04:46 PM
Wouldn't cooling capacity be a massive problem too? The radiators have a limited capacity and computing generates a lot of heat. To the point that large data centres are being moved to the Arctic.
Electrical all pretty much winds up as heat. Any time you add more solar for any reason you'd have to worry about cooling.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: input~2 on 08/13/2017 01:06 PM
WESTERN NORTH ATLANTIC.
FLORIDA.
1. HAZARDOUS OPERATIONS 141623Z TO 141726Z AUG,
ALTERNATE 151600Z TO 151703Z AUG
IN AREAS BOUND BY:
A. 28-40N 080-44W, 30-10N 079-08W,
31-06N 078-08W, 31-55N 077-06W,
32-10N 076-25W, 31-34N 076-54W,
30-40N 077-53W, 28-23N 080-28W,
28-22N 080-39W.
B. 30-00N 078-58W, 30-10N 079-08W,
31-06N 078-08W, 31-45N 077-03W,
31-41N 076-58W, 31-35N 076-58W,
30-40N 077-53W.
2. CANCEL NAVAREA IV 665/17.
3. CANCEL THIS MSG 151803Z AUG 17.//

Authority: EASTERN RANGE 091458Z AUG 17.

Date: 091636Z AUG 17
Cancel: 15180300 Aug 17



WESTERN SOUTH PACIFIC.
SOUTHEASTERN INDIAN OCEAN.
1. HAZARDOUS OPERATIONS SPACE DEBRIS
141718Z TO 141749Z AUG, ALTERNATE
151655Z TO 151726Z AUG IN AREA BOUND BY
17-15S 078-31E, 37-36S 104-38E,
45-43S 124-24E, 51-24S 156-25E,
53-33S 156-13E, 49-26S 118-56E,
39-04S 096-49E, 24-47S 080-28E,
18-43S 076-33E.
2. CANCEL HYDROPAC 2684/17.
3. CANCEL THIS MSG 151826Z AUG 17.//

Authority: EASTERN RANGE 091455Z AUG 17.

Date: 091622Z AUG 17
Cancel: 15182600 Aug 17

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: DatUser14 on 08/13/2017 09:00 PM
Short phasing time this opportunity.
what is meant by "short phasing time this opportunity"?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: ChrisGebhardt on 08/13/2017 09:18 PM
Short phasing time this opportunity.
what is meant by "short phasing time this opportunity"?


It means the time it takes from launch to rendezvous (phasing) is on the shorter end of how long it can take for Dragon.  Right now, phasing is 40hrs for CRS-12.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Flying Beaver on 08/13/2017 09:38 PM
So this flight is flying flown landing legs if I heard Hans correctly.

Correct.  That's the only thing they said is being reused on this F9 (at least what they could remember off the top of their heads).

No mention of flying the titanium grid fins from Iridium-2?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 08/13/2017 09:43 PM
So this flight is flying flown landing legs if I heard Hans correctly.

Correct.  That's the only thing they said is being reused on this F9 (at least what they could remember off the top of their heads).

No mention of flying the titanium grid fins from Iridium-2?

They have another launch at Vandenberg this month.  Why would they ship that set of grid fins to the East coast?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 08/13/2017 10:09 PM
So this flight is flying flown landing legs if I heard Hans correctly.

Correct.  That's the only thing they said is being reused on this F9 (at least what they could remember off the top of their heads).

No mention of flying the titanium grid fins from Iridium-2?

They have another launch at Vandenberg this month.  Why would they ship that set of grid fins to the East coast?

Not necessarily the same flight units, but perhaps a second set?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 08/13/2017 10:18 PM
So this flight is flying flown landing legs if I heard Hans correctly.

Correct.  That's the only thing they said is being reused on this F9 (at least what they could remember off the top of their heads).

No mention of flying the titanium grid fins from Iridium-2?

They have another launch at Vandenberg this month.  Why would they ship that set of grid fins to the East coast?

Not necessarily the same flight units, but perhaps a second set?

The original question was about reused equipment on the flight.  A brand new set of titanium grid fins to use in Florida wouldn't count.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 08/13/2017 10:51 PM
During the pre-launch briefing today there was a question about the placement of ISS-CREAM on the exterior of the ISS.  They said they chose that location because the Japanese module has a cooling loop its externally mounted payloads can use.  The other external payload locations don't have that functionality.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: jjyach on 08/14/2017 02:02 AM
So this flight is flying flown landing legs if I heard Hans correctly.

Correct.  That's the only thing they said is being reused on this F9 (at least what they could remember off the top of their heads).

No mention of flying the titanium grid fins from Iridium-2?

Based on what I saw from the static fire (Grid pattern, central Spine, painted white) they appear to be the old style for CRS-12
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: kdhilliard on 08/14/2017 03:08 AM
From the update thread:
Rocket horizontal on the pad. You can also see the progress in taking down the RSS

The black and pink bands are for moisture protection at the Dragon/Trunk and S2/S1 barriers and seals.
Added in response to the caliper shaped ice seen in the CRS-11 trunk?

~Kirk
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: matthewkantar on 08/14/2017 03:57 AM
Maybe they will use up the old stock of grid fins on CRS flights as the are much less burny.

Matthew
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 08/14/2017 09:15 AM
Closer shot

Quote
Here's a sneak peek of the #SpaceX Falcon 9 and Dragon at Pad 39A. Liftoff of CRS-12 to ISS is slated for 12:31PM ET tomorrow. LZ-1 landing!

https://twitter.com/nova_road/status/896819753586757632

Who knitted that cool scarf for the Dragon?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Barrie on 08/14/2017 09:30 AM
Closer shot

Quote
Here's a sneak peek of the #SpaceX Falcon 9 and Dragon at Pad 39A. Liftoff of CRS-12 to ISS is slated for 12:31PM ET tomorrow. LZ-1 landing!

https://twitter.com/nova_road/status/896819753586757632

Who knitted that cool scarf for the Dragon?

Pink scarf?  Might be a non-PC salute to the new Doctor Who ::)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Skylab on 08/14/2017 10:26 AM
Would this have any impact on the landing (attempt)? I'm guessing it won't have, because it's 'only' the securing phase that would be impacted. So the rocket would have to ride out the storm unsecured. Anyone care to speculate/inform us?
Quote
"Storms Threaten Post-Landing Securing of Falcon 9 First Stage on Monday"
[SNIP]
"First-stage landings are often described by SpaceX as “experimental” and of secondary importance, when placed alongside the successful delivery of payloads into orbit. However, with the touchdown of tomorrow’s first stage scheduled about eight minutes after launch—around 12:39 p.m. EDT—there remains a possibility that the post-landing securing of the vehicle may be problematic. “After landing time Monday,” noted the 45th Weather Squadron, “storm chances will increase, potentially impacting first-stage securing.”
Source:
http://www.americaspace.com/2017/08/13/storms-threaten-post-landing-securing-of-falcon-9-first-stage-on-monday/
Title: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Star One on 08/14/2017 10:33 AM
Closer shot

Quote
Here's a sneak peek of the #SpaceX Falcon 9 and Dragon at Pad 39A. Liftoff of CRS-12 to ISS is slated for 12:31PM ET tomorrow. LZ-1 landing!

https://twitter.com/nova_road/status/896819753586757632

Who knitted that cool scarf for the Dragon?

Pink scarf?  Might be a non-PC salute to the new Doctor Who ::)

Remind me again how long is it since Tom Baker was the Doctor
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 08/14/2017 11:06 AM
Seriously, once the core is down, surely it would be earthed by the contact between the landing struts and the concrete. Is there any realistic explosion hazard or only a hazard to workmen and vehicles on and around the vehicle form being hit by lightning?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: rpapo on 08/14/2017 11:13 AM
Seriously, once the core is down, surely it would be earthed by the contact between the landing struts and the concrete. Is there any realistic explosion hazard or only a hazard to workmen and vehicles on and around the vehicle form being hit by lightning?
Ignition hazard is just one item.  For instance, what is the danger the stage might be blown over by winds from a storm?  How much would winds and rain interfere with attaching the crane harness to the top of the stage, or carrying it over to the stand, securing it to the stand, or doing any of the other tasks involved with moving the stage into the refurbishment hangar?

IIRC, so far the weather has been kind to them.

FWIW, as far as I'm concerned, the experience with the ASDS so far would seem to indicate that Falcon will be fine with anything short of a bad storm.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: vanoord on 08/14/2017 12:47 PM
From the updates thread:

From this morning's pad photo op.

Full res:[2] (https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/n-d92v7/2017-08-14-CRS-12/i-CqqLZq2/0/e8ce6f85/O/2017_08_14_07_07_29_1D3_7989.jpg)

This seems new? (Circled yellow) 

The top section of the TEL was removed after the last launch and seems to have gained a couple bits - the part that's circled and the dark grey assembly across the top.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Mike_1179 on 08/14/2017 01:03 PM
From the updates thread:

This seems new? (Circled yellow) 

The top section of the TEL was removed after the last launch and seems to have gained a couple bits - the part that's circled and the dark grey assembly across the top.

X-37 needs an additional umbilical to blow AC up its backside. Would you ever route an AC umbilical through the interstage though?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: flyright on 08/14/2017 01:10 PM
From the updates thread:
...

This seems new? (Circled yellow) 

The top section of the TEL was removed after the last launch and seems to have gained a couple bits - the part that's circled and the dark grey assembly across the top.

The dark grey assembly looks new, but the circled part was there for CRS-11.
Still, I wonder what it is. Stablizer?

Link to CRS-11 pic: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42972.msg1684988#msg1684988

edit: fixed typo
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: vanoord on 08/14/2017 02:15 PM
The dark grey assembly looks new, but the circled part was there for CRS-11.
Still, I wonder what it is. Stablizer?

Link to CRS-11 pic: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42972.msg1684988#msg1684988

edit: fixed typo

Curious - I found a photo which claimed to be of CRS-11 and that wasn't there!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: flyright on 08/14/2017 02:56 PM
The dark grey assembly looks new, but the circled part was there for CRS-11.
Still, I wonder what it is. Stablizer?

Link to CRS-11 pic: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42972.msg1684988#msg1684988

edit: fixed typo

Curious - I found a photo which claimed to be of CRS-11 and that wasn't there!

Yep, It is curious. I don't see it any of the pics I've looked at for CRS-10, so it must have been added at some point for CRS-11.
I don't recall seeing any discussion about it.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: NX-0 on 08/14/2017 03:10 PM
What do all the call signs mean? I have an acquaintance who says his son is AVI-1 today.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: vanoord on 08/14/2017 03:33 PM
What do all the call signs mean? I have an acquaintance who says his son is AVI-1 today.

Avionics operator?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: ZachF on 08/14/2017 03:34 PM
Skies looks pretty clear in the pics... hopefully we can get some good video from it like the NROL launch.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: rpapo on 08/14/2017 03:34 PM
Curiosity question: Do they evacuate the HIF at launch and static fire time?  I rather expect they do, but haven't read anything about it.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Jim on 08/14/2017 03:37 PM
Seriously, once the core is down, surely it would be earthed by the contact between the landing struts and the concrete. Is there any realistic explosion hazard or only a hazard to workmen and vehicles on and around the vehicle form being hit by lightning?

This is what happens when lightning hits a composite fishing rod

https://i.redd.it/vqde67q14ebz.jpg
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: intrepidpursuit on 08/14/2017 03:40 PM
Curiosity question: Do they evacuate the HIF at launch and static fire time?  I rather expect they do, but haven't read anything about it.

Yes. They evacuate the entire complex except for critical personnel well in advance of launch and they make sure critical personnel are out before any fuel loading or firing.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Steve D on 08/14/2017 03:43 PM
Seriously, once the core is down, surely it would be earthed by the contact between the landing struts and the concrete. Is there any realistic explosion hazard or only a hazard to workmen and vehicles on and around the vehicle form being hit by lightning?

This is what happens when lightning hits a composite fishing rod

https://i.redd.it/vqde67q14ebz.jpg


And when it hits a plane on the ground.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2Lb4GB3WBA
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: NX-0 on 08/14/2017 03:58 PM
What do all the call signs mean? I have an acquaintance who says his son is AVI-1 today.

Avionics operator?
I am told he is 'in charge' of S2.
I am curious what all of them are, though.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: JoerTex on 08/14/2017 04:02 PM
There's nothing on the radar that will affect the launch or landing today.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Basto on 08/14/2017 04:13 PM
Funky music is go!

I have the SpaceX funky music in one tab with the NASA broadcast in another.  Actually sort of works :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: rsnellenberger on 08/14/2017 04:29 PM
It sounds like they're broadcasting the commentary from a cafeteria...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Halidon on 08/14/2017 04:38 PM
Wow that tracking shot. Can really see how the air's flowing
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Surfdaddy on 08/14/2017 04:42 PM
I am still amazed at how smoothly the return and landing goes these days.... two years ago was just science fiction, now routine.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: IanH84 on 08/14/2017 04:47 PM
I am still amazed at how smoothly the return and landing goes these days.... two years ago was just science fiction, now routine.
I was saying the same thing on another forum; it never gets old, but I don't worry that something is going to go wrong unless it's an ASDS landing in rough seas.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Tomness on 08/14/2017 04:48 PM
It sounds like they're broadcasting the commentary from a cafeteria...

I believe it is above the cafeteria & all the employees right below them and to the back of the control room
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: yokem55 on 08/14/2017 04:49 PM
Thought for a bit the tracking shot on descent was showing the first stage breaking up and the stage camera just hadn't caught up yet. But I guess we just haven't seen all the potential atmospheric interactions on display yet...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 08/14/2017 04:50 PM
Yeah, there was a glow just after MECO3 that must have been residuals leaking out of the centreline Merlin but it really looked like they'd had a propulsion failure, especially how she seemed to heel over to about 30-degrees off-prograde!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: ZachF on 08/14/2017 04:51 PM
That thing took off quick.... more thust?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: LouScheffer on 08/14/2017 04:52 PM
The grid fins seemed to be much more active during the landing sequence, compared to previous missions. 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Chris_Pi on 08/14/2017 04:52 PM
Wow that tracking shot. Can really see how the air's flowing

Looks like it's got soot much further up the windward side. Wonder if they were leaning it over more than before.

And kinda cutting it close on landing leg deploy there. Three or four seconds before touchdown? Going to have to re-watch later and check.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Zach Swena on 08/14/2017 04:53 PM
When the right hand view changed from second stage to the tracking shot, I was confused also.  Then I realized that we finally got to see the first stage flying with an angle of attack.  If you notice, the first stage was flying sideways to the airstream, probably to create some lift and alter the return path.  This is something that has been talked about with grid fin discussion for a while, but we hadn't really gotten to see it in action from that perspective before.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: matthewkantar on 08/14/2017 04:54 PM
The view of the first stage changing angle of attack as it came in was hair raising!

Matthew
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: whitelancer64 on 08/14/2017 04:56 PM
Wow that tracking shot. Can really see how the air's flowing

Looks like it's got soot much further up the windward side. Wonder if they were leaning it over more than before.

And kinda cutting it close on landing leg deploy there. Three or four seconds before touchdown? Going to have to re-watch later and check.

Leg deploy has always been in the last few seconds before touchdown.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: intrepidpursuit on 08/14/2017 04:57 PM
I'm looking forward to seeing some of the analysis the brilliant people here do of these launches applied to this one. Many things looked a little different, including angle of attack on reentry, speed of acceleration and length of the single engine landing burn. It could be that it was just a really clear day with better than average camera angles, but it was certainly interesting nonetheless.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: kevinof on 08/14/2017 04:57 PM
yeah thought it was going to tumble but no. Interesting that they are trying to get some lift from the stage on the way in.

The view of the first stage changing angle of attack as it came in was hair raising!

Matthew
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Jarnis on 08/14/2017 05:14 PM
That thing took off quick.... more thust?

Yep. New uprated engines, Block 4 booster. +11% thrust or thereabouts.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: RotoSequence on 08/14/2017 05:15 PM
The grid fins seemed to be much more active during the landing sequence, compared to previous missions.

I currently attribute it to the booster's trajectory and angle of attack after the deceleration burn.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: M.E.T. on 08/14/2017 05:17 PM
That thing took off quick.... more thust?

Yep. New uprated engines, Block 4 booster. +11% thrust or thereabouts.

Is this speculation or was it confirmed that this was the first Block 4?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: LouScheffer on 08/14/2017 05:25 PM
Whatever they changed did not include the final landing sequence.  It started at 4 km up, 300 m/s, and lasted 30 seconds, just like the last time, to within the precision of the webcast.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: ChrisGebhardt on 08/14/2017 05:29 PM
That thing took off quick.... more thust?

Yep. New uprated engines, Block 4 booster. +11% thrust or thereabouts.

Is this speculation or was it confirmed that this was the first Block 4?

This was supposed to be the first block 4, but the grid fins were wrong and Hans said yesterday that nothing was really new with this booster.  So I'll check and see what I can find.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Jarnis on 08/14/2017 05:35 PM
That thing took off quick.... more thust?

Yep. New uprated engines, Block 4 booster. +11% thrust or thereabouts.

Is this speculation or was it confirmed that this was the first Block 4?

Was quoted as "fact" from unnamed sources on Reddit prior to launch (implied it was from someone who knew someone who worked at SpaceX), but now that you question it, I haven't heard an official confirmation. I'm sure someone is already counting frames and figuring out if the rocket took off the pad any faster than previous ones...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: old_sellsword on 08/14/2017 05:37 PM
That thing took off quick.... more thust?

Yep. New uprated engines, Block 4 booster. +11% thrust or thereabouts.

Is this speculation or was it confirmed that this was the first Block 4?

Was quoted as "fact" from unnamed sources on Reddit prior to launch (implied it was from someone who knew someone who worked at SpaceX), but now that you question it, I haven't heard an official confirmation. I'm sure someone is already counting frames and figuring out if the rocket took off the pad any faster than previous ones...

The claims of the first Block 4 are well sourced. The claims of uprated thrust are complete speculation.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Skylab on 08/14/2017 06:27 PM
There won't be any space left for this in the HIF, I guess, with the Heavy parts there and one F9 already stored outdoors. Is this going to be refurbished at LZ-1 or elsewhere?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: karanfildavut on 08/14/2017 06:29 PM
Since this is the final CRS mission awarded in the initial contract, can we do a final accounting on how much total cargo was lifted to the ISS under CRS1? Specifically I'm curious if the original terms (minimum 20 metric tons upmass to the station, including the CRS-7) were met or, if exceeded, by how much. The first couple flights under v1.0 and v1.1 were lighter due to booster restrictions, so they would have had to make up some mass in the later flights to meet the original contractual terms.

Edit:

I've used the wikipedia pages for the respective missions for the following total:

CRS-1: 905
CRS-2: 898
CRS-3: 2089
CRS-4: 2216
CRS-5: 2317
CRS-6: 2015
CRS-7: 2454 (failure)
CRS-8: 3136
CRS-9: 2257
CRS-10: 2490
CRS-11: 2708
CRS-12: 3310 2910
Total: ~26,400kg (~24,000 without CRS-7), although there is some contradictory data on wikipedia regarding pressurized and unpressurized payload so grain of salt on the total. Please let me know if you get a different number and I can update accordingly.

Edit 2: Fixed CRS-12
Edit 3: Spaceflight101 cites 23,800 kg under CRS1 to date. Link: http://spaceflight101.com/dragon-spx-12-arrives-at-space-station/
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: russianhalo117 on 08/14/2017 06:38 PM
Since this is the final CRS mission awarded in the initial contract, can we do a final accounting on how much total cargo was lifted to the ISS under CRS1? Specifically I'm curious if the original terms (minimum 20 metric tons upmass to the station, including the CRS-7) were met or, if exceeded, by how much. The first couple flights under v1.0 and v1.1 were lighter due to booster restrictions, so they would have had to make up some mass in the later flights to meet the original contractual terms.
yes under the original CRS-1 contract terms but not the exercised option to extend the number of flights under the contract.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Nomadd on 08/14/2017 07:13 PM
Since this is the final CRS mission awarded in the initial contract, can we do a final accounting on how much total cargo was lifted to the ISS under CRS1? Specifically I'm curious if the original terms (minimum 20 metric tons upmass to the station, including the CRS-7) were met or, if exceeded, by how much. The first couple flights under v1.0 and v1.1 were lighter due to booster restrictions, so they would have had to make up some mass in the later flights to meet the original contractual terms.

Edit:

I've used the wikipedia pages for the respective missions for the following total:

CRS-1: 905
CRS-2: 898
CRS-3: 2089
CRS-4: 2216
CRS-5: 2317
CRS-6: 2015
CRS-7: 2454
CRS-8: 3136
CRS-9: 2257
CRS-10: 2490
CRS-11: 2708
CRS-12: 3310

Total: ~26,800kg, although there is some contradictory data on wikipedia regarding pressurized and unpressurized payload so grain of salt on the total. Please let me know if you get a different number and I can update accordingly.
Even without CRS-7, still 20% over the required. Not too bad. CRS-12 almost doubles the average that would have been needed if they'd all been equal.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 08/14/2017 07:21 PM
Even without CRS-7, still 20% over the required. Not too bad. CRS-12 almost doubles the average that would have been needed if they'd all been equal.

There are various numbers floating around, it's hard to tell what was really expected.  In the June 2016 OIG report on the CRS-7 failure they give much higher numbers for the expected masses, but it's hard to tell if that's just what they ended up paying for and the 20k mT is still the contractual minimum.  The OIG report listed 35k for the targeted upmass.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Norm38 on 08/14/2017 07:37 PM
This was supposed to be the first block 4, but the grid fins were wrong...

Not necessarily "wrong".  Reuse hardware can be swapped around.  Legs can be swapped between cores, so can grid fins.  Elon said Titanium performance wasn't really needed for LEO missions.  So if they'd only built the one set of Ti fins and had AL lying around, sounds like a "use to depletion" type cutover to me.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: docmordrid on 08/14/2017 07:38 PM
The angle of attack coming in looks....impressive,
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Tulse on 08/14/2017 08:34 PM
I'm surprised that they'd put such lateral forces on one side of the stage.  Is there any play between the outer skin and the internal tanks?  Would this risk flexing the tanks?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: envy887 on 08/14/2017 08:43 PM
I'm surprised that they'd put such lateral forces on one side of the stage.  Is there any play between the outer skin and the internal tanks?  Would this risk flexing the tanks?

There are no internal tanks. Skin and tank are the same thing.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Kansan52 on 08/14/2017 08:43 PM
Broadside slows it quicker.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: vandersons on 08/14/2017 08:48 PM
There is no outer skin on Falcon 9. The tank walls make up most of what you see of the rocket. With the exception of the interstage and some covers for the octaweb.

Would any modern rocket actually have an outer skin covering the tank walls?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lars-J on 08/14/2017 09:12 PM
There is no outer skin on Falcon 9. The tank walls make up most of what you see of the rocket. With the exception of the interstage and some covers for the octaweb.

Would any modern rocket actually have an outer skin covering the tank walls?

Usually there is no external *structural* layer, but many rockets do have layers of insulation outside the tank. (for example Delta IV)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lars-J on 08/14/2017 09:15 PM
I'm surprised that they'd put such lateral forces on one side of the stage.  Is there any play between the outer skin and the internal tanks?  Would this risk flexing the tanks?

Yes, if done excessively, but they do it within acceptable parameters. Gliding sideways (very slightly) is what allows the stage to pinpoint the landing. Think of the grid fins as tail fins, and the main cylinder body as the wing. The grid fins themselves provide very little 'lift', they are just methods to aim the body to generate lift in specific directions.

But that angle is a bit deceptive, the extreme telephoto lens makes it look like a larger angle than it is.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 08/15/2017 04:00 AM
Cropped version of SoaceX landing photo. I know the side on angle isn't great, but to me it looks mainly like dirt (sand?) on the pad, the pad paint job seems to have held up pretty well?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: JAFO on 08/15/2017 04:52 AM
yeah thought it was going to tumble but no. Interesting that they are trying to get some lift from the stage on the way in.

The view of the first stage changing angle of attack as it came in was hair raising!

Matthew

The ultimate in post-stall maneuvering?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwN6efmhp7E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwN6efmhp7E)


(The Great Firewall was breeched for a few minutes, I'm frantically downloading all the videos I can.)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Stan-1967 on 08/15/2017 06:04 AM
But that angle is a bit deceptive, the extreme telephoto lens makes it look like a larger angle than it is.

To me, it was more the separation of the vapor/exhaust contrail from the S1 cylinder body than the photo angle that made the angle of attack look extreme.   I've watched over & over how the entry burn is straight into the velocity vector of the stage, & today's video coverage shows a pretty significant attitude change within a few seconds of the entry burn shutdown.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: kevinof on 08/15/2017 07:53 AM
From the ground camera yes, it looks like a significant attitude change , but from the on-board it looks pin straight. I know the on-board shots do lack perspective and it's more difficult to judge but it looked bang to me.

But that angle is a bit deceptive, the extreme telephoto lens makes it look like a larger angle than it is.

To me, it was more the separation of the vapor/exhaust contrail from the S1 cylinder body than the photo angle that made the angle of attack look extreme.   I've watched over & over how the entry burn is straight into the velocity vector of the stage, & today's video coverage shows a pretty significant attitude change within a few seconds of the entry burn shutdown.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: deruch on 08/15/2017 12:33 PM
CRS-12: 3310

The cargo figure you have for CRS-12 is wrong.  Per the NASA mission overview, this dragon is taking 2910kg of total cargo (including ISS-CREAM).  Which fits with the statement during the pre-launch briefing that this was the 2nd heaviest mission so far-- CRS-8 being the heaviest.  So, the total cargo delivered needs to adjusted downward 400kg.

https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/spacex_crs-12_missionoverview.pdf
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Jdeshetler on 08/15/2017 03:05 PM
Looking side way, looks like 20-25 degree angle of attack.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smQ4dniDAbs
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: whitelancer64 on 08/15/2017 03:18 PM
Cropped version of SoaceX landing photo. I know the side on angle isn't great, but to me it looks mainly like dirt (sand?) on the pad, the pad paint job seems to have held up pretty well?

The landing pad is concrete. This has been definitively established multiple times. It's surrounded by a ring of compacted dirt.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: abaddon on 08/15/2017 03:58 PM
Cropped version of SoaceX landing photo. I know the side on angle isn't great, but to me it looks mainly like dirt (sand?) on the pad, the pad paint job seems to have held up pretty well?
The landing pad is concrete. This has been definitively established multiple times. It's surrounded by a ring of compacted dirt.
I believe @FutureSpaceTourist was talking about what looks like a bit of a wash of dirt/sand on the pad, not what the pad is made of, and suggesting that it is in fact dirt/sand and not damage from the rocket plume.  As noted, it is difficult to say for sure due to the angle, but I would tend to agree.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Rocket Science on 08/15/2017 04:27 PM
The grid fins seemed to be much more active during the landing sequence, compared to previous missions.
They looked like they were getting a workout and still makes me smile every time... :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: joncz on 08/15/2017 05:23 PM
I believe @FutureSpaceTourist was talking about what looks like a bit of a wash of dirt/sand on the pad, not what the pad is made of, and suggesting that it is in fact dirt/sand and not damage from the rocket plume.  As noted, it is difficult to say for sure due to the angle, but I would tend to agree.

Surely so.  They've scarified the nearby surface to remove topsoil in preparation for pouring concrete for the second pad.  They certainly didn't have a water truck active just prior to launch for dust control, and with the wind at the coast, I have no doubt there was a layer of dust and sand across the entire concrete surface.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Basto on 08/15/2017 05:27 PM
If you compare the landing location on the pad to CRS 11 and you can see that the rocket performed the landing perfectly.

While the AOA looked pretty dramatic, there are not many landings that have had as clear a view of the entire process from the ground. So I am assuming it was not far out of the ordinary. Either that or we were witnessing part a block IV upgrade of some sort.

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: kenny008 on 08/15/2017 05:37 PM
My understanding is that they target offshore until they are comfortable that the engines are performing properly, then bring it over the pad for final landing.  The AOA maneuver occurred right after the entry burn was complete, so this might be when they are satisfied the engines are working properly and they can then target the pad. 

Not convinced it's any different than previous flights.  Might be just a great view this time.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: AlesH on 08/15/2017 06:30 PM
Where exactly (relative to ISS) is Dragon CRS-12 right now (Tuesday, August 15th, 18:30 UT)? Do you know the times and parameters of Dragon's orbital maneuvers? The officially issued TLE parameters do not make much sense to me, because the arrival to the ISS would be up to August 17th (without very strong and ineffective maneuvers).
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: stcks on 08/15/2017 08:14 PM
you will notice some of the block 4 differences if you have a good eye and watch the flight footage and not all are small differences but most are. I'll leave you with that until launch day.

Well, its the day after and I've looked at tons of pictures and video and I can't find anything different. Care to elaborate?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: ppb on 08/15/2017 08:22 PM
Looking side way, looks like 20-25 degree angle of attack.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smQ4dniDAbs
Great pix. I'm kind of amazed the little (relative to the body) grid fins have that much control authority. The CG must really be close to the engines at that point.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: LouScheffer on 08/15/2017 08:36 PM
The takeoff looked quicker to me, but I compared it to CRS-11 and it's almost identical.

Looking at both videos, at the frame where the clock ticks from 6 to 7, the bottom of the booster is about 3 "floors" above the top of the FSS just behind it.  Side by side, it looks exactly the same to me.  The telemetry at this frame shows 53 km/h for CRS-11, and even a little less for CRS-12 (51 km/h).   So certainly a 10% thrust increase is ruled out - that would change the initial acceleration from something like 0.3 G up to 0.4 G up, which would be clearly noticeable.  Instead the two launches look identical to within the accuracy of the webcast.
EDIT: fixed units
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: stcks on 08/15/2017 08:46 PM
The takeoff looked quicker to me, but I compared it to CRS-11 and it's almost identical.

Looking at both videos, at the frame where the clock ticks from 6 to 7, the bottom of the booster is about 3 "floors" above the top of the FSS just behind it.  Side by side, it looks exactly the same to me.  The telemetry at this frame shows 53 m/s for CRS-11, and even a little less for CRS-12 (51 m/s).   So certainly a 10% thrust increase is ruled out - that would change the initial acceleration from something like 0.3 G up to 0.4 G up, which would be clearly noticeable.  Instead the two launches look identical to within the accuracy of the webcast.

Yes there were clearly no thrust increases on CRS-12.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Joffan on 08/15/2017 09:35 PM
The takeoff looked quicker to me, but I compared it to CRS-11 and it's almost identical.

Looking at both videos, at the frame where the clock ticks from 6 to 7, the bottom of the booster is about 3 "floors" above the top of the FSS just behind it.  Side by side, it looks exactly the same to me.  The telemetry at this frame shows 53 m/s for CRS-11, and even a little less for CRS-12 (51 m/s).   So certainly a 10% thrust increase is ruled out - that would change the initial acceleration from something like 0.3 G up to 0.4 G up, which would be clearly noticeable.  Instead the two launches look identical to within the accuracy of the webcast.

I think the difference might just be that the audio count of zero was better synchronized to the hold-down release. Because it looked quicker to me too, but I don't see that on telemetry or visuals.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: envy887 on 08/15/2017 11:16 PM
The takeoff looked quicker to me, but I compared it to CRS-11 and it's almost identical.

Looking at both videos, at the frame where the clock ticks from 6 to 7, the bottom of the booster is about 3 "floors" above the top of the FSS just behind it.  Side by side, it looks exactly the same to me.  The telemetry at this frame shows 53 m/s for CRS-11, and even a little less for CRS-12 (51 m/s).   So certainly a 10% thrust increase is ruled out - that would change the initial acceleration from something like 0.3 G up to 0.4 G up, which would be clearly noticeable.  Instead the two launches look identical to within the accuracy of the webcast.

Assuming the liftoff mass was the same... which it may not have been since it depends on prop temp.

I don't have any evidence that thrust was higher, and I actually doubt that it was, but I'm just pointing out that acceleration depends on more than just thrust.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 08/16/2017 05:46 AM
Maybe the thrust increase was for the second stage. CRS-12 second stage burn time was 10 seconds shorter than CRS-11 (6:38 versus 6:48). Of course, different payload mass, orbit and throttling could help to explain the difference.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Bargemanos on 08/16/2017 01:53 PM
So this was the first Block 4..


https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/08/falcon-9-block-4-debut-success-dragon-station-berthing/
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: abaddon on 08/16/2017 03:43 PM
I suppose it is possible that the booster was cleared for higher thrust but the mission profile chose not to use it.  No need for it on this mission and maybe NASA didn't want to be the first guinea pig.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: stcks on 08/16/2017 03:44 PM
Maybe the thrust increase was for the second stage. CRS-12 second stage burn time was 10 seconds shorter than CRS-11 (6:38 versus 6:48). Of course, different payload mass, orbit and throttling could help to explain the difference.

Maybe, but ChrisG specifically said M1D (https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/08/falcon-9-block-4-debut-success-dragon-station-berthing/):

Quote
The first Block 4 did make use of increased-thrust Merlin 1D engines. The thrust increase of the Merlin 1Ds is also incremental, with a final thrust increase set to debut on the Block 5.

If there was a thrust increase on the first stage it was so slight as to not be noticeable. There are some really good telemetry graphs and two comparisons between CRS-11 and CRS-12 that can be found on this reddit post (https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/6ttxhy/crs12_telemetry/). Its quite obvious that, everything else being relatively equal, both CRS-11 and CRS-12 were flown with basically the same thrust (but different max-q throttling).

I'm very curious what was meant by the above quote. Did it just mean that the flown engines were uprated but flown at same thrust levels?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 08/17/2017 01:46 AM
Fun video by Scott Manley

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PdR_s_v3drQ (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PdR_s_v3drQ)

Quote
Published on 16 Aug 2017
SpaceX launches Dragon Spacecraft to the International Space Station under the Commercial Resupply Services (CRS) program.
This video synchronizes the launches of CRS-1 through CRS-12 and you can see how the technology and launch profiles have changed.
The were a few Dragon missions prior to this which were technology demonstrators for the Commercial Orbital Transportation Services (COTS) program, the second of which berthed at the ISS in May 2012. This is missing from the video because 13 is not a convenient number for this presentation :)

Mission control audio is chopped up with sections from all launches intermixed to highlight the major events.

The music is by Test Shot Starfish who do all the music for the SpaceX livestreams.
https://soundcloud.com/testshotstarfish
Tracks are 'Re - Flight', 'Approaching Dragon' and 'Andromeda'
https://soundcloud.com/testshotstarfi...
https://soundcloud.com/testshotstarfi...
https://soundcloud.com/testshotstarfi...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Raul on 08/17/2017 08:18 AM
If there was a thrust increase on the first stage it was so slight as to not be noticeable. There are some really good telemetry graphs and two comparisons between CRS-11 and CRS-12 that can be found on this reddit post (https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/6ttxhy/crs12_telemetry/). Its quite obvious that, everything else being relatively equal, both CRS-11 and CRS-12 were flown with basically the same thrust (but different max-q throttling).

I'm very curious what was meant by the above quote. Did it just mean that the flown engines were uprated but flown at same thrust levels?

It could be also possible that increased booster liftoff thrust upto 7.6MN (1.71M lbf) was used already before this first flight of Block 4 booster (incl. CRS-11), as it was mentioned first time by John Federspiel during NROL-76 webcast (also S2 in Block 4 configuration for the first time), mentioned that similarly also during BulgariaSat-1 webcast, or by SFN in case of Intelsat 35e (https://spaceflightnow.com/2017/07/06/spacex-delivers-for-intelsat-on-heavyweight-falcon-9-mission/). Could be only tweaked thrust without fundamental HW changes.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Comga on 08/17/2017 03:38 PM
Fun video by Scott Manley

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PdR_s_v3drQ (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PdR_s_v3drQ)

Quote
Published on 16 Aug 2017
SpaceX launches Dragon Spacecraft to the International Space Station under the Commercial Resupply Services (CRS) program.
This video synchronizes the launches of CRS-1 through CRS-12 and you can see how the technology and launch profiles have changed.
The were a few Dragon missions prior to this which were technology demonstrators for the Commercial Orbital Transportation Services (COTS) program, the second of which berthed at the ISS in May 2012. This is missing from the video because 13 is not a convenient number for this presentation :)

Mission control audio is chopped up with sections from all launches intermixed to highlight the major events.

The music is by Test Shot Starfish who do all the music for the SpaceX livestreams.
https://soundcloud.com/testshotstarfish
Tracks are 'Re - Flight', 'Approaching Dragon' and 'Andromeda'
https://soundcloud.com/testshotstarfi...
https://soundcloud.com/testshotstarfi...
https://soundcloud.com/testshotstarfi...

This is TERRIFIC!
Such an education
The first stage landings have stopped getting faster.  CRS-11 first stage landed at 7:40 elapsed time.  CRS-12 was 6 seconds slower.  CRS9 and CRS-10 were identically 40 seconds slower and CRS-8, going to the ASDS was a full 60 seconds slower.  But they were all exciting to watch, especially together.
There is even more contrast in the first stage flights, with CRS-1 taking way longer to stage.  Yet CRS-5 was the shortest time to separation of Dragon.
Then there are the LOX-cam views. I miss those.
Again, a really cool compilation.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: quagmire on 08/17/2017 05:08 PM

This is TERRIFIC!
Such an education
The first stage landings have stopped getting faster.  CRS-11 first stage landed at 7:40 elapsed time.  CRS-12 was 6 seconds slower.  CRS9 and CRS-10 were identically 40 seconds slower and CRS-8, going to the ASDS was a full 60 seconds slower.  But they were all exciting to watch, especially together.
There is even more contrast in the first stage flights, with CRS-1 taking way longer to stage.  Yet CRS-5 was the shortest time to separation of Dragon.
Then there are the LOX-cam views. I miss those.
Again, a really cool compilation.

Do have to keep in mind the reason for the longer staging of CRS-1 was due to compensating for the loss of an engine during ascent so stage 1 did burn longer then planned.

But yes it is a great comparison to how Falcon 9 has changed from 1.0 to todays 1.2B3/4.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: rpapo on 08/17/2017 06:08 PM
Do have to keep in mind the reason for the longer staging of CRS-1 was due to compensating for the loss of an engine during ascent so stage 1 did burn longer then planned.
That's not all.  IIRC, one of the changes to the Falcon 9 1.1+ design was to reduce the first stage portion of the flight relative to the second stage portion so as to make recovery of the first stage easier.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: quagmire on 08/17/2017 06:55 PM
Do have to keep in mind the reason for the longer staging of CRS-1 was due to compensating for the loss of an engine during ascent so stage 1 did burn longer then planned.
That's not all.  IIRC, one of the changes to the Falcon 9 1.1+ design was to reduce the first stage portion of the flight relative to the second stage portion so as to make recovery of the first stage easier.

Right. Was just referencing why CRS-1 staged later even compared to CRS-2 which was also a 1.0.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: LouScheffer on 08/17/2017 07:02 PM
We can estimate the liftoff thrust from the videos.

At the turn of the clock from 6 to 7, it's going 53 km/hr on CR-11 and 51 km/hr on CRS-12.  Assume 52 km/hr which is 14.44 m/s.  Over 7 seconds this is 2.06 m/s^2.

Next we need the mass.  From this Environmental Impact Statement (http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/pr/permits/incidental/research/spacex_2016iha_draftea.pdf) we know the Falcon Full Thrust first stage has about 420 tonnes of fuel.  It's known to mass about 30 tonnes, plus Musk has stated the first stage can push 125 tonnes.  So a total of 575 tonnes at liftoff.

So now takeoff thrust is 575,000 * (9.8 + 2.06) = 6.82 MN = 1.53 million pounds force.  That's exactly the takeoff thrust quoted in the Environmental Impact above, so it's consistent.

So we have definitely not seen the 1.7 million pounds-force version yet.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 08/18/2017 12:09 AM
My apologies, when I saw Scott's video on YouTube I hadn't spotted that a thread for it was already in the SpaceX general section: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43588.0 (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43588.0)

Best continue any further discussion there.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: deruch on 08/18/2017 07:02 AM
We can estimate the liftoff thrust from the videos.

At the turn of the clock from 6 to 7, it's going 53 km/hr on CR-11 and 51 km/hr on CRS-12.  Assume 52 km/hr which is 14.44 m/s.  Over 7 seconds this is 2.06 m/s^2.

Next we need the mass.  From this Environmental Impact Statement (http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/pr/permits/incidental/research/spacex_2016iha_draftea.pdf) we know the Falcon Full Thrust first stage has about 420 tonnes of fuel.  It's known to mass about 30 tonnes, plus Musk has stated the first stage can push 125 tonnes.  So a total of 575 tonnes at liftoff.

So now takeoff thrust is 575,000 * (9.8 + 2.06) = 6.82 MN = 1.53 million pounds force.  That's exactly the takeoff thrust quoted in the Environmental Impact above, so it's consistent.

So we have definitely not seen the 1.7 million pounds-force version yet.
Nice analysis.  May have been the 1.7Mlb-f version just flown below the new maximum thrust level though.  Not necessarily inconsistent to have info saying that CRS-12 flew with up-rated engines and data showing that the launch didn't, assuming the higher maximum, use full thrust. 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: LouScheffer on 08/18/2017 12:45 PM
May have been the 1.7Mlb-f version just flown below the new maximum thrust level though.  Not necessarily inconsistent to have info saying that CRS-12 flew with up-rated engines and data showing that the launch didn't, assuming the higher maximum, use full thrust. 

This makes sense to me, especially for a Dragon mission.  The maximum performance they can use is putting the Dragon into the desired orbit while returning the booster to the Cape.  So engineering would sensibly select the minimum stress profile that achieves this - lower thrust on launch, longer throttle back around Max-Q (which they also did) and so on.  Commercial airplanes do this routinely - if the runway is long enough, they don't use maximum thrust for takeoff.

By not maxing out the rocket,  you could have (numbers for example purposes only) 30% margins on GTO flights, but 40% margins on Dragon flights.  If I were NASA, it would be super appealing for crewed flights to have settings and structural loads well below what has been demonstrated on the test stand and in other (non-crewed) flights.  And doing this now with un-crewed Dragons seems like excellent preparation for doing the same with a crew onboard.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: woods170 on 08/18/2017 01:07 PM
We can estimate the liftoff thrust from the videos.

At the turn of the clock from 6 to 7, it's going 53 km/hr on CR-11 and 51 km/hr on CRS-12.  Assume 52 km/hr which is 14.44 m/s.  Over 7 seconds this is 2.06 m/s^2.

Next we need the mass.  From this Environmental Impact Statement (http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/pr/permits/incidental/research/spacex_2016iha_draftea.pdf) we know the Falcon Full Thrust first stage has about 420 tonnes of fuel.  It's known to mass about 30 tonnes, plus Musk has stated the first stage can push 125 tonnes.  So a total of 575 tonnes at liftoff.

So now takeoff thrust is 575,000 * (9.8 + 2.06) = 6.82 MN = 1.53 million pounds force.  That's exactly the takeoff thrust quoted in the Environmental Impact above, so it's consistent.

So we have definitely not seen the 1.7 million pounds-force version yet.
Nice analysis.  May have been the 1.7Mlb-f version just flown below the new maximum thrust level though.  Not necessarily inconsistent to have info saying that CRS-12 flew with up-rated engines and data showing that the launch didn't, assuming the higher maximum, use full thrust. 
You don't fly higher-thrust engines for the first time if you do not intend to utilize that higher thrust.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: LouScheffer on 08/18/2017 01:28 PM
  May have been the 1.7Mlb-f version just flown below the new maximum thrust level though.  Not necessarily inconsistent to have info saying that CRS-12 flew with up-rated engines and data showing that the launch didn't, assuming the higher maximum, use full thrust. 
You don't fly higher-thrust engines for the first time if you do not intend to utilize that higher thrust.
This is not obvious to me.  At some point you start qualifying your engines to a new, higher, maximum thrust.  You incorporate the new engines into new boosters as they are built.   Now suppose the first mission for the new booster does not require the new maximum thrust.   What are you going to do?   Use the new maximum thrust just because you can?  That seems wrong, running at higher ratings surely increases the risk.  Swap if for a booster with crappier engines?  That seems wrong too.

I believe the Shuttle had engine settings which were developed, and qualified, but never intended to be used.  They were reserved for abort scenarios.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: woods170 on 08/18/2017 02:15 PM
  May have been the 1.7Mlb-f version just flown below the new maximum thrust level though.  Not necessarily inconsistent to have info saying that CRS-12 flew with up-rated engines and data showing that the launch didn't, assuming the higher maximum, use full thrust. 
You don't fly higher-thrust engines for the first time if you do not intend to utilize that higher thrust.
This is not obvious to me.  At some point you start qualifying your engines to a new, higher, maximum thrust.  You incorporate the new engines into new boosters as they are built.   Now suppose the first mission for the new booster does not require the new maximum thrust.   What are you going to do?   Use the new maximum thrust just because you can?  That seems wrong, running at higher ratings surely increases the risk.  Swap if for a booster with crappier engines?  That seems wrong too.

I believe the Shuttle had engine settings which were developed, and qualified, but never intended to be used.  They were reserved for abort scenarios.
Every time SpaceX introduced more powerfull engines on their rockets they immediately made use of the increased power. There is no valid reason not to do so.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Comga on 08/18/2017 03:01 PM
Is this a block 4 F9? If so what are the improvements vs B3?

This is the first Block 4 first stage. Block 4 second stages have been flying for some time now.

We’ve heard about thrust upgrades and things like bolted octawebs, but nothing super concrete.

It’s basically just a bunch of small hardware upgrades they threw together on their way up to Block 5. We probably wouldn’t even notice the upgrade, especially considering we didn’t notice the Block 2 and 3 upgrades.
you will notice some of the block 4 differences if you have a good eye and watch the flight footage and not all are small differences but most are. I'll leave you with that until launch day.

So?
Did I miss a post from you after launch day that explains what changes should have been visible?
Someone suggested the angle of attach for the retuning first stage.
It was also said that the legs were reused, but while that may be the first time that doesn't fit your description of "new".
What else?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: abaddon on 08/18/2017 03:20 PM
Every time SpaceX introduced more powerfull engines on their rockets they immediately made use of the increased power. There is no valid reason not to do so.
There's always a first time.  And it's quite likely NASA wouldn't want to be the first mission to use higher thrust levels.  It seems to me the most plausible explanation for both a) this being the first "block 4" booster with uprated engines and b) seeing a profile consistent with previous boosters.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: abaddon on 08/18/2017 03:22 PM
(from the update thread)
Looks like it is coming down real slow.
Why not?  Plenty of margin to play with, clearly.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: garidan on 08/18/2017 03:27 PM
NASA boosters are new, but boosters are reused thereafter. So it makes sense to use new full thrust engines even if not useful for its first mission.

Inviato dal mio MI 5 utilizzando Tapatalk

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: octavo on 08/18/2017 08:31 PM
  May have been the 1.7Mlb-f version just flown below the new maximum thrust level though.  Not necessarily inconsistent to have info saying that CRS-12 flew with up-rated engines and data showing that the launch didn't, assuming the higher maximum, use full thrust. 
You don't fly higher-thrust engines for the first time if you do not intend to utilize that higher thrust.
This is not obvious to me.  At some point you start qualifying your engines to a new, higher, maximum thrust.  You incorporate the new engines into new boosters as they are built.   Now suppose the first mission for the new booster does not require the new maximum thrust.   What are you going to do?   Use the new maximum thrust just because you can?  That seems wrong, running at higher ratings surely increases the risk.  Swap if for a booster with crappier engines?  That seems wrong too.

I believe the Shuttle had engine settings which were developed, and qualified, but never intended to be used.  They were reserved for abort scenarios.
Every time SpaceX introduced more powerfull engines on their rockets they immediately made use of the increased power. There is no valid reason not to do so.
Higher thrust = increased engine wear = increased refurbishment time + cost.

If the performance isn't needed on this mission, why stress the engines more than necessary? Wouldn't you rather reduce the time and cost of refurbishment and possibly extend the booster lifetime?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: AncientU on 08/18/2017 08:32 PM
Every time SpaceX introduced more powerfull engines on their rockets they immediately made use of the increased power. There is no valid reason not to do so.
There's always a first time.  And it's quite likely NASA wouldn't want to be the first mission to use higher thrust levels.  It seems to me the most plausible explanation for both a) this being the first "block 4" booster with uprated engines and b) seeing a profile consistent with previous boosters.

Not the track record so far... CRS flights have been incredibly supportive of the changes and development efforts.  The folks over at Commercial crew should watch and learn.

Landing a Dragon 2 with inherent stability of a capsule and a low terminal velocity is much simpler than these booster landings.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: AncientU on 08/18/2017 08:36 PM
  May have been the 1.7Mlb-f version just flown below the new maximum thrust level though.  Not necessarily inconsistent to have info saying that CRS-12 flew with up-rated engines and data showing that the launch didn't, assuming the higher maximum, use full thrust. 
You don't fly higher-thrust engines for the first time if you do not intend to utilize that higher thrust.
This is not obvious to me.  At some point you start qualifying your engines to a new, higher, maximum thrust.  You incorporate the new engines into new boosters as they are built.   Now suppose the first mission for the new booster does not require the new maximum thrust.   What are you going to do?   Use the new maximum thrust just because you can?  That seems wrong, running at higher ratings surely increases the risk.  Swap if for a booster with crappier engines?  That seems wrong too.

I believe the Shuttle had engine settings which were developed, and qualified, but never intended to be used.  They were reserved for abort scenarios.
Every time SpaceX introduced more powerfull engines on their rockets they immediately made use of the increased power. There is no valid reason not to do so.
Higher thrust = increased engine wear = increased refurbishment time + cost.

If the performance isn't needed on this mission, why stress the engines more than necessary? Wouldn't you rather reduce the time and cost of refurbishment and possibly extend the booster lifetime?

Are you sure the engines are not higher capability with same margin as before? There is much counter-evidence that your naive equality above is true -- the 24 hour turn-around and ten reuses without refurbishment on Block 5s completely contradicts your intuition.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: abaddon on 08/18/2017 08:40 PM
Not the track record so far... CRS flights have been incredibly supportive of the changes and development efforts.  The folks over at Commercial crew should watch and learn.
IIRC NASA has previously requested, maybe more than once, not to be the first flight after a big change.  For example F9 1.1, RTF after CRS-7, RTF after Amos-6, first flight using new load procedure with sub-cooled prop.  None of these were CRS flights.  They're also sluggish on getting on-board with using a previously flown booster.  Not that any of that is bad, but they are definitely not first adopters when it comes to CRS (COTS was a different matter).

The folks at Commercial Crew are, I think, just fine...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: AncientU on 08/18/2017 08:58 PM
Not the track record so far... CRS flights have been incredibly supportive of the changes and development efforts.  The folks over at Commercial crew should watch and learn.
IIRC NASA has previously requested, maybe more than once, not to be the first flight after a big change.  For example F9 1.1, RTF after CRS-7, RTF after Amos-6, first flight using new load procedure with sub-cooled prop.  None of these were CRS flights.  They're also sluggish on getting on-board with using a previously flown booster.  Not that any of that is bad, but they are definitely not first adopters when it comes to CRS (COTS was a different matter).

The folks at Commercial Crew are, I think, just fine...

We'll see on reused boosters... if NASA accepts a flight-proven booster for CRS within the first year they are flying, that will be incredibly supportive from an organization that nominally works in decades.  IIRC, SpaceX had re-flown two boosters before NASA began talking about the process they needed to start up to investigate/qualify such usage.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: abaddon on 08/18/2017 09:07 PM
We'll see on reused boosters... if NASA accepts a flight-proven booster for CRS within the first year they are flying, that will be incredibly supportive from an organization that nominally works in decades.
Not really, three to potentially as many as six or more successful flights of previously-flown boosters would be similar to other certifications NASA has made of the other provider(s) in LSP for higher-value payloads.  And clearly NASA and the CRS program has a lot of insight into Falcon 9 at this point, in combination with CCS.  In fact they stressed how much work they are doing in combination with SpaceX with regards to reviewing the data and paperwork on recovered boosters, what SpaceX is doing to refurbish them, which parts they replace and which ones they don't, etc.

Again, nothing wrong here but let's not fall over ourselves either.  Commercial customers like SES are the ones who are allowing SpaceX to push the envelope with booster reuse.  NASA we can thank for awarding the COTS/CRS contracts that made SpaceX a viable concern, back when they almost folded, as well as working with them to produce a better more reliable product over time, providing expertise in incident reviews, selecting them as a CC provider, selecting them for some lower-risk LSP missions, etc.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: rcoppola on 08/18/2017 09:21 PM
Once Block 5 is in full rotation and a few are brought back and reflown to validate re-use certification models/processes, this all becomes much easier for NASA and DOD and commercial clients for that matter. So barring any unforeseen Block 5 incidents, I think 2018 is the year that reuse becomes fully operational, transparent, formalized/certified and fully accepted/enjoined industry wide. And thus, the first game, set, match goes to SpaceX.

Let's see if anyone besides BO cares to challenge for the next one...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: georgegassaway on 08/18/2017 09:40 PM
Meanwhile, as NASA and DOD uses new F9's for their flights, those boosters, assuming they land safely, can be reflown for other customers. 

Only really a serious issue if SpaceX wanted to build fewer new boosters than NASA and DOD wanted to fly aboard. SpaceX would have to get a lot of reflights out of each booster before that's much of a problem.

So far, only 2 re-flights, both with "hot" re-entries which makes it unlikely those boosters will ever fly again. If they wanted to establish that a booster could say re-fly 5 times, they'd want to do it with mild re-entries. Perhaps they will shoot for that once Block 5 is operational, and could be why they didn't do milder re-entries with the two re-flights since those are not B-5's.

Theory and plans are one thing (FH in "6 months" TM), proven record of boosters re-flying 5 to 10 times each without a problem..... not going to see that established for years (flight rate and refurbishment time, even if things go well).

Totally understandable that some customers, such as NASA and DOD, would want to see proof with a real track record.

Just sayin'.....
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: AncientU on 08/18/2017 10:16 PM
That's possible... and NASA and DOD will forfeit their 'leadership' role.
They will still have the biggest checkbooks, so all will continue to kowtow to them, but all will know...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: RedLineTrain on 08/18/2017 10:23 PM
So far, only 2 re-flights, both with "hot" re-entries which makes it unlikely those boosters will ever fly again.

Is that your supposition, or is this based on information provided by SpaceX?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: jpo234 on 08/18/2017 11:02 PM


So far, only 2 re-flights, both with "hot" re-entries which makes it unlikely those boosters will ever fly again.

Is that your supposition, or is this based on information provided by SpaceX?

We know that the first reflown booster will be put on display at the CCAFS.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Robotbeat on 08/19/2017 01:01 AM
  May have been the 1.7Mlb-f version just flown below the new maximum thrust level though.  Not necessarily inconsistent to have info saying that CRS-12 flew with up-rated engines and data showing that the launch didn't, assuming the higher maximum, use full thrust. 
You don't fly higher-thrust engines for the first time if you do not intend to utilize that higher thrust.
This is not obvious to me.  At some point you start qualifying your engines to a new, higher, maximum thrust.  You incorporate the new engines into new boosters as they are built.   Now suppose the first mission for the new booster does not require the new maximum thrust.   What are you going to do?   Use the new maximum thrust just because you can?  That seems wrong, running at higher ratings surely increases the risk.  Swap if for a booster with crappier engines?  That seems wrong too.

I believe the Shuttle had engine settings which were developed, and qualified, but never intended to be used.  They were reserved for abort scenarios.
Every time SpaceX introduced more powerfull engines on their rockets they immediately made use of the increased power. There is no valid reason not to do so.
They flew Merlin 1C at partial thrust on Falcon 1 because it wasn't yet qualified for fuller thrust (that'd be for Falcon 1e, which never flew).
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Norm38 on 08/19/2017 05:14 AM
Is it better to push the corners, or demonstrate cycle rate?  Push the corners first, then cycle at the corners.
Of course, they have the numbers to cycle a LEO booster and a GTO.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: Bananas_on_Mars on 08/19/2017 08:39 AM
  May have been the 1.7Mlb-f version just flown below the new maximum thrust level though.  Not necessarily inconsistent to have info saying that CRS-12 flew with up-rated engines and data showing that the launch didn't, assuming the higher maximum, use full thrust. 
You don't fly higher-thrust engines for the first time if you do not intend to utilize that higher thrust.
This is not obvious to me.  At some point you start qualifying your engines to a new, higher, maximum thrust.  You incorporate the new engines into new boosters as they are built.   Now suppose the first mission for the new booster does not require the new maximum thrust.   What are you going to do?   Use the new maximum thrust just because you can?  That seems wrong, running at higher ratings surely increases the risk.  Swap if for a booster with crappier engines?  That seems wrong too.

I believe the Shuttle had engine settings which were developed, and qualified, but never intended to be used.  They were reserved for abort scenarios.
Every time SpaceX introduced more powerfull engines on their rockets they immediately made use of the increased power. There is no valid reason not to do so.
They flew Merlin 1C at partial thrust on Falcon 1 because it wasn't yet qualified for fuller thrust (that'd be for Falcon 1e, which never flew).

On missions where you don't need the extra performance, maybe they simply reserve the uprated thrust for engine-out scenarios?
With the uprated thrust, they still might be able to recover a stage if the affected engine(s) are not the 3 restartable ones.
At least in the past, i think an engine-out scenario would almost always result in loss of the first stage because it would use up their landing fuel reserves.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 @ 1231EDT/1631UTC : DISCUSSION
Post by: macpacheco on 08/19/2017 04:16 PM
On missions where you don't need the extra performance, maybe they simply reserve the uprated thrust for engine-out scenarios?
With the uprated thrust, they still might be able to recover a stage if the affected engine(s) are not the 3 restartable ones.
At least in the past, i think an engine-out scenario would almost always result in loss of the first stage because it would use up their landing fuel reserves.
There are several flaws in this thinking.
1 - SpaceX knows engine margins, you and I DON'T

2 - The more thrust you use on the first stage, except for the throttle down during MaxQ, the least gravity losses you get, which gives you much better margins should an engine failure happen later. A more lofted trajectory can be used, resulting in a higher altitude separation, with marginally lower horizontal speeds.

3 - The assumption that SpaceX is somehow reducing its safety margins, just because thrust is higher seems intuitive and maybe true, but its likely wrong. The last time a Merlin failed was still first generation Falcons with their M1Cs. So far M1D SL/Vac have a perfect safety track. I think the total safety margin is huge, otherwise SpaceX wouldn't be telling us that all engines that landed were fine for reuse (I suspect the parts requiring substantial refurb are mostly or exclusively related to areas that get little heating on the way up but get lots of heating on the way down, M1D was designed with margin for extensive reuse from the start).

Its perfectly possible both scenarios where CRS12 wasn't a full Block IV booster yet or that it had the higher thrust but NASA simply said: we're fine with old thrust levels, we don't want to risk being the first ones, but once you demonstrate 2 launches at higher thrust, then we're on board. There isn't enough data to conclude it either way.

Engineering is done with sufficient safety margins. If it breaks at thrust x on ground testing, something like 10 or even 20% lower thrust is used. By requalifying M1Ds for higher thrust, SpaceX either didn't have the capability (or didn't have the need to use higher thrust at the time) to break at higher thrust than now or they simply managed to run at higher thrust levels with some changes. I truly doubt SpaceX is reducing safety margins by using higher thrust. Running at much higher safety margins might not appreciably increase safety margins, much like running your car at 50% or 75% power levels doesn't destroy the engine either way (as long as proper maintenance is performed). Aviation engines are routinely run at 100% power for hours at a time, the difference between 100% and 75% power being used most of the time is the overhaul bill rather than time to engine destruction.

Its always fun to speculate wildly, but its also hugely unproductive, and very likely to lead to wildly incorrect conclusions.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Craftyatom on 08/19/2017 06:01 PM
Not to break up discussion about thrust ratings, but I saw something in the full launch-to-landing telephotography video that I wanted to point out, in case anyone missed it.  Starting at 6:44, and ending at 6:47 (you might want to slow the video down to get a good look), a ring of 8 shock trails form between the engines and over legs, coinciding with the booster going transonic.

At first I thought this was exhaust from engine startup, especially given that it ends almost exactly as the engine starts.  However, it seems too uniform and too far up the booster to be coming from the center engine, the only one that lights during this burn.  Furthermore, similar effects form around the grid fins, and engine ignition changes the environment around the base of the rocket anyways, so it makes sense that it would end such formations.

I love formations like these, and this is a really interesting one - the incoming airflow being squeezed between the eight outer engines produces a pattern that you probably won't find anywhere else!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Danny452 on 08/20/2017 12:37 PM
"Continuous Close Up Footage of Launch Through Landing of the CRS-12 Falcon 9!" from Astronomy Live:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3j2HjI82mI

This video from the Updates thread shows a fast flip of the first stage with a main engine starting before the flip is complete.  The flip must throw propellant to the top of the tanks.  Do the nitrogen thrusters provide ullage?  Or does TEA/TEB give the necessary thrust as well as lighting the engine?  Or is there some other mechanism?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: jpo234 on 08/20/2017 12:44 PM
Regarding thrust: Higher thrust means higher G-forces, right? How much can the mice take?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: tvg98 on 08/20/2017 11:07 PM
Just another day on the beach ... :)

Credit to https://www.instagram.com/marcuscote_photo/ (https://www.instagram.com/marcuscote_photo/)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: whitelancer64 on 08/20/2017 11:18 PM
"Continuous Close Up Footage of Launch Through Landing of the CRS-12 Falcon 9!" from Astronomy Live:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3j2HjI82mI

This video from the Updates thread shows a fast flip of the first stage with a main engine starting before the flip is complete.  The flip must throw propellant to the top of the tanks.  Do the nitrogen thrusters provide ullage?  Or does TEA/TEB give the necessary thrust as well as lighting the engine?  Or is there some other mechanism?

As far as I know, the Nitrogen thrusters do provide ullage. It's hard to tell because the 2nd stage is firing, but it looks to me like the thrusters were firing prior to 1st stage re-ignition for the boost-back burn.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: jpo234 on 08/20/2017 11:20 PM


Regarding thrust: Higher thrust means higher G-forces, right? How much can the mice take?

Ping! Could it be, that SpaceX had to hold back the higher thrust of Block 4 so that they didn't flatten the mice?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Jim on 08/21/2017 12:23 AM


Regarding thrust: Higher thrust means higher G-forces, right? How much can the mice take?

Ping! Could it be, that SpaceX had to hold back the higher thrust of Block 4 so that they didn't flatten the mice?

no, because they throttle the engines before MECO
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: envy887 on 08/21/2017 02:59 AM
G forces are not an issue in the early part of launch, where extra thrust would be most useful but wasn't observed.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: deruch on 08/23/2017 12:34 AM
Just to provide another potential option:

Since they have 9 engines on the first stage, they could have run 1 (or more?) at the higher thrust and used lower thrust on the remaining to end up with the same overall vehicle thrust.  Doing this would allow them an excellent chance to analyze the performance of the uprated engines in comparison to past engines in a range of performances (i.e. higher, equal, and lower thrust).  Would be especially nice as they get the engines back for hands-on study post flight.

I'm not saying that this was done.  Only that it is a scenario that is also compatible with available data.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: OneSpeed on 08/23/2017 04:00 AM
... Since they have 9 engines on the first stage, they could have run 1 (or more?) at the higher thrust and used lower thrust on the remaining to end up with the same overall vehicle thrust.  Doing this would allow them an excellent chance to analyze the performance of the uprated engines in comparison to past engines in a range of performances (i.e. higher, equal, and lower thrust).  Would be especially nice as they get the engines back for hands-on study post flight.

I'm not saying that this was done.  Only that it is a scenario that is also compatible with available data.

Another option is higher throttle after staging, which presents less risk to the primary mission. E.g. For the CRS-11 boostback burn ( http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42389.msg1686855#msg1686855 ) ascent was at 91% of Block 5 thrust, and boostback at 97.5%. CRS-12 however, appears to have used 91% and 90% respectively.
Title: SpaceX CRS-12 Dragon - EOM (Unberth, Entry, Splashdown) - UPDATES
Post by: pb2000 on 09/18/2017 12:00 AM
First reused one to return twice... nice going SpaceX
I think you may have your Dragons mixed up :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Shanuson on 09/22/2017 11:11 AM
Does anyone know if the mice from RodentResearch-9 survived the return in Dragon as planed?
Also was on any previous missions anything living returned successfully? 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-12 : Aug 14, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 09/22/2017 01:59 PM
In the past experiments they were not returned alive, but for this experiment they were supposed to return alive:

[NASA] Rodent Research-9 (SpaceX-12) (https://www.nasa.gov/ames/research/space-biosciences/rodent-research-9)
Quote
The Rodent Research-9 mission, RR-9, is the first in a series of rodent payloads on International Space Station (ISS) that is dedicated to NASA-sponsored science experiments.  The previous rodent payloads on the ISS involved commercial and other government agency experiments selected by the Center for Advancement of Science in Space (CASIS).

The spaceflight environment is known to result in significant physiological changes on many aspects of the body during long-duration mission in low Earth orbit, posing hazards to the astronauts.  This mission’s primary objective is to use mice to better understand the visual impairment and joint tissue degradation that are affecting astronauts living in space for long periods of time, and to examine possible ways to counteract those health problems.  NASA is also working to maximize science return from this mission by sharing tissues from the animals with as many NASA investigators as possible.

The RR-9 payload consists of three NASA Space Biology investigations that will address the effects of microgravity on a range of different tissues.   One investigation will study the effects of long duration spaceflight on fluid shifts and increased fluid pressures that occur in the head.   These elevated pressures inside the head are believed to be the primary cause of visual impairment in astronauts who undergo long duration spaceflight.  A second investigation will study the impact of spaceflight on the vessels that supply blood to the eyes. The third investigation will study the extent of knee and hip joint degradation due to prolonged exposure to weightlessness.  All the results from the RR-9 experiments will play a role in answering pertinent questions to human space exploration.  Here on Earth, these studies will help us gain more insight into disorders of the eyes, and also the progression of damage in the hip and knee joints of wheel-chair bound patients.   

For the RR-9 mission, live mice will be launched on the SpX-12 Dragon capsule and transferred to their Rodent Habitat upon arrival to the ISS, where they will be maintained in microgravity for the mission duration.  During this time, there will be daily health checks to ensure the animal’s health and welfare.  At the end of the mission, the mice will be transferred back into the Dragon capsule and brought back alive to Earth.  After the Dragon capsule splashes down in the Pacific Ocean, the animals will be removed from the capsule and transported to a nearby investigator’s research facility – proximity is important to ensure the mice have minimal exposure to 1g after splashdown before they are analyzed by the scientists.  Upon receipt of the animals, the investigators will complete their experiments and collect tissues that can be shared with other scientists.