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SpaceX Vehicles and Missions => SpaceX Missions Section => Topic started by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/20/2017 01:22 PM

Title: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/20/2017 01:22 PM
CRS-13 Discussion thread

NSF Threads for CRS-13 : Discussion (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42775.0) / Updates (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=44271.0) / RNDZ, Berthing, ISS Ops (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=44455.0) / L2 Coverage November-December (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=44111.0) / ASDS (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?board=66.0) / Party (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40089.msg1520968#msg1520968)

NSF Articles for CRS-13:
https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/?s=CRS-13
https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/12/flight-proven-falcon-9-launch-flown-dragon-iss/
https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/12/slc-40-comes-back-with-crs-13-static-fire/
https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/12/flight-proven-falcon-9-launch-flown-dragon-iss/

NSF Articles for CRS missions :  https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/?s=CRS (https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/?s=CRS)

Successful launch 15 December at 1036 EST/1536 UTC on Falcon 9 (booster 1035.2) from SLC-40.  First stage landed at LZ-1.



External cargo: Space Debris Sensor, MISSE-FF, TSIS



Other SpaceX resources on NASASpaceflight:
   SpaceX News Articles (Recent) (http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/tag/spacex/)  /   SpaceX News Articles from 2006 (Including numerous exclusive Elon interviews) (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=21862.0)
   SpaceX Dragon Articles (http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/tag/dragon/)  /  SpaceX Missions Section (with Launch Manifest and info on past and future missions) (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?board=55.0)
   L2 SpaceX Section (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?board=60.0)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 04/20/2017 01:24 PM
Created the thread to have sonewhere to post this!

Quote
NASA's JC Liou of Orbital Debris Office: We expect our Space Debris Sensor to fly to ISS on Nov 1 @SpaceX's Falcon 9/Dragon.

https://twitter.com/pbdes/status/855045463711641601 (https://twitter.com/pbdes/status/855045463711641601)

Edit: so I can't count! CRS-12 is NET August, CRS-13 Nov.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 05/03/2017 04:27 PM
Space Debris Sensor Waiting For Launch (https://sma.nasa.gov/news/articles/newsitem/2017/02/07/space-debris-sensor-waiting-for-launch)
The Space Debris Sensor (SDS) has completed functional testing and been delivered to the Kennedy Space Center for final integration checkout with the International Space Station (ISS). From there it will go into storage until a SpaceX launch vehicle is ready to deliver it to the ISS.  Launch is currently scheduled for late 2017.

The SDS is a flight demonstration of an impact sensor designed to detect and characterize impacts by small debris objects. The sensor will be attached to the ESA Columbus module facing the ISS velocity vector with one square meter of detection area. The sensor combines multiple technologies to measure the time, speed, direction, size, and density of objects greater than 50 µm in size. With this information, as well as the orbital position of each detection, the sensor should collect enough data over its intended minimum 2-year mission to update the NASA Orbital Debris Engineering Model for objects smaller than 1 mm near ISS altitudes. With lessons learned from the SDS experience, a follow-on mission to place a second-generation sensor at higher altitudes will someday provide the ability to update the risk from small debris to many operational spacecraft in low Earth orbit.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 07/19/2017 04:09 PM
Tweet from Jeff Foust: (https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/887697754054578176)
Quote
[Andrew Rush, Made In Space]: have built and qualified a pilot mfg facility for high-quality ZBLAN optical fibers. Scheduled to fly to ISS on SpX-13. #ISSRDC
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: russianhalo117 on 07/21/2017 12:45 AM
Space Debris Sensor Waiting For Launch (https://sma.nasa.gov/news/articles/newsitem/2017/02/07/space-debris-sensor-waiting-for-launch)
The Space Debris Sensor (SDS) has completed functional testing and been delivered to the Kennedy Space Center for final integration checkout with the International Space Station (ISS). From there it will go into storage until a SpaceX launch vehicle is ready to deliver it to the ISS.  Launch is currently scheduled for late 2017.

The SDS is a flight demonstration of an impact sensor designed to detect and characterize impacts by small debris objects. The sensor will be attached to the ESA Columbus module facing the ISS velocity vector with one square meter of detection area. The sensor combines multiple technologies to measure the time, speed, direction, size, and density of objects greater than 50 µm in size. With this information, as well as the orbital position of each detection, the sensor should collect enough data over its intended minimum 2-year mission to update the NASA Orbital Debris Engineering Model for objects smaller than 1 mm near ISS altitudes. With lessons learned from the SDS experience, a follow-on mission to place a second-generation sensor at higher altitudes will someday provide the ability to update the risk from small debris to many operational spacecraft in low Earth orbit.
additional SDS reference from May: https://orbitaldebris.jsc.nasa.gov/quarterly-news/pdfs/odqnv21i2.pdf
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 07/29/2017 02:40 PM
Olaf found a reference saying ASIM (http://asim.dk/index.php) is now planned to launch in 2018, so it appears the external payloads for CRS-13 will be SDS, MISSE-FF and TSIS.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Olaf on 07/29/2017 02:50 PM
Sorry, I´ve modified my post.
TSIS will be launched NET 2018.
https://www.wmo-sat.info/oscar/satellites/view/529
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 07/29/2017 07:23 PM
Sorry, I´ve modified my post.
TSIS will be launched NET 2018.
https://www.wmo-sat.info/oscar/satellites/view/529

Hmmm, the project page at LASP (http://lasp.colorado.edu/home/missions-projects/quick-facts-tsis/) still shows November.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 07/29/2017 07:48 PM
Tweet from LASP TSIS (@Go_TSIS) (https://twitter.com/Go_TSIS/status/889322577700585472) on July 23:
Quote
All packed up and ready to go. Here we come, Florida!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 07/29/2017 08:10 PM
Total and Spectral Solar Irradiance Sensor (TSIS-1)

Project page (http://lasp.colorado.edu/home/missions-projects/quick-facts-tsis/) at University of Colorado Boulder - Laboratory for Atmospheric and Space Physics (LASP)

TSIS-1 was originally intended for the NPOESS satellite program, with a $42 million contract (https://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2009/jul/HQ_C09-033_TSIS_contract.html) given in 2009.  Next it was targeted for the Polar Free Flyer satellite program, and finally ended up as an instrument to be mounted on the ISS.

TSIS-1 has two instruments: the Total Irradiance Monitor (TIM) measures the total solar irradiance (TSI) that is incident at the outer boundaries of the atmosphere; and the Spectral Irradiance Monitor (SIM) measures solar spectral irradiance (SSI) from 200 nm to 2400 nm (96 percent of the TSI).  TSIS-1 also has a precision pointing mechanism to aim the instruments.

Images from TSIS project page at CU Boulder - LASP
1. A close-up view of TSIS-1 as deployed on the International Space Station ExPRESS logistics carrier (ELC)-3. The TSIS-1 Thermal Pointing System (TPS) is deployed above the ELC after installation in order to provide sufficient clearance to track the sun each orbit with a two-axis gimbal. (Courtesy NASA/LASP)
2. TIM measures the total light coming from the sun at all wavelengths. (Courtesy LASP)
3. SIM will measure how the light from the sun is distributed by wavelength. (Courtesy LASP)

Also attached: Pdf presentation from Nov. 2015 giving an overview of TSIS-1.

[NASA Jul 20, 2017] NASA Looks to Solar Eclipse to Help Understand Earth’s Energy System  (https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2017/nasa-looks-to-the-solar-eclipse-to-help-understand-the-earth-s-energy-system)
Quote
This fall, NASA will continue to monitor the sun-Earth relationship by launching the Total and Spectral Solar Irradiance Sensor-1, or TSIS-1, to the International Space Station
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 07/29/2017 08:10 PM
MISSE-FF : Materials International Space Station Experiment - Flight Facility

MISSE-FF (http://alphaspace.com/index.html) will be mounted on the exterior of the ISS where it will hold materials samples to test their performance in space.  It will allow individual sample carriers to be robotically swapped out.  MISSE-FF is a commercial facility owned by Alpha Space that will host both goverment and private industry experiments.

There was a recent FISO Teleconference (http://spirit.as.utexas.edu/~fiso/archivelist.htm) on MISSE-FF on April 5, 2017.  PDF and MP3 files are attached.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Olaf on 07/30/2017 09:23 AM
What is the average timeframe from arriving at the Cape until launch?
Or another question. Are three months enough from arrival to launch?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: DOCinCT on 07/30/2017 04:12 PM
What is the average timeframe from arriving at the Cape until launch?
Or another question. Are three months enough from arrival to launch?
Based on pages 50 and 53 of the Falcon Users Guide Ver 2 ,
Launch campaign kickoff -
Verifies that all people, parts and paper are ready for the shipment of the payload to the launch site and are ready to begin launch site activities. This is 3 months until launch. 
Delivery of the spacecraft is generally 30 days in advance of launch. 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 07/30/2017 04:31 PM
What is the average timeframe from arriving at the Cape until launch?
Or another question. Are three months enough from arrival to launch?
Based on pages 50 and 53 of the Falcon Users Guide Ver 2 ,
Launch campaign kickoff -
Verifies that all people, parts and paper are ready for the shipment of the payload to the launch site and are ready to begin launch site activities. This is 3 months until launch. 
Delivery of the spacecraft is generally 30 days in advance of launch.

The Falcon Users Guide is irrelevant for this.  It's a NASA science payload on a Dragon flight.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Comga on 07/31/2017 05:45 AM
Space Debris Sensor Waiting For Launch (https://sma.nasa.gov/news/articles/newsitem/2017/02/07/space-debris-sensor-waiting-for-launch)
The Space Debris Sensor (SDS) has completed functional testing and been delivered to the Kennedy Space Center for final integration checkout with the International Space Station (ISS). From there it will go into storage until a SpaceX launch vehicle is ready to deliver it to the ISS.  Launch is currently scheduled for late 2017.

The SDS is a flight demonstration of an impact sensor designed to detect and characterize impacts by small debris objects. The sensor will be attached to the ESA Columbus module facing the ISS velocity vector with one square meter of detection area.(snip)

Why would this be facing the velocity vector?
At first blush that would seem to be the direction of least debris flux.

Stuff at 400 km but going slower than the ISS would have a lower perigee.  That would take it into the denser atmosphere, where it's orbital lifetime would be less.  AIUI, that's why the ISS is flown at the altitude it does, so that the residual exosphere scrubs small debris from orbit.

Now a rearward facing surface would be exposed to debris with perigees at or below the ISS altitude but with higher apogees.  These would have higher velocity than the ISS and "catch up to it."

However, if one assumes that orbits circularize with greatest drag at perigee, small debris, with corresponding lower coefficients of drag, would act as if constantly being accelerated in the -V direction.  That would have them impinge from the front.

Does that mean that SDS expects minute debris to be in circularized orbits rather than elliptical?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: cppetrie on 07/31/2017 06:07 AM
Space Debris Sensor Waiting For Launch (https://sma.nasa.gov/news/articles/newsitem/2017/02/07/space-debris-sensor-waiting-for-launch)
The Space Debris Sensor (SDS) has completed functional testing and been delivered to the Kennedy Space Center for final integration checkout with the International Space Station (ISS). From there it will go into storage until a SpaceX launch vehicle is ready to deliver it to the ISS.  Launch is currently scheduled for late 2017.

The SDS is a flight demonstration of an impact sensor designed to detect and characterize impacts by small debris objects. The sensor will be attached to the ESA Columbus module facing the ISS velocity vector with one square meter of detection area.(snip)

Why would this be facing the velocity vector?
At first blush that would seem to be the direction of least debris flux.

Stuff at 400 km but going slower than the ISS would have a lower perigee.  That would take it into the denser atmosphere, where it's orbital lifetime would be less.  AIUI, that's why the ISS is flown at the altitude it does, so that the residual exosphere scrubs small debris from orbit.

Now a rearward facing surface would be exposed to debris with perigees at or below the ISS altitude but with higher apogees.  These would have higher velocity than the ISS and "catch up to it."

However, if one assumes that orbits circularize with greatest drag at perigee, small debris, with corresponding lower coefficients of drag, would act as if constantly being accelerated in the -V direction.  That would have them impinge from the front.

Does that mean that SDS expects minute debris to be in circularized orbits rather than elliptical?
I was thinking the idea was sort of like bugs and windshields. Your front windshield gets covered in them. The rear glass not so much. If you wanted to place a sensor to detect characteristics of bug-windshield impacts you'd want it on the front of the vehicle. That idea might not translate to orbit, but that's what I thought of as I read it.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: AncientU on 07/31/2017 10:25 AM
Space Debris Sensor Waiting For Launch (https://sma.nasa.gov/news/articles/newsitem/2017/02/07/space-debris-sensor-waiting-for-launch)
The Space Debris Sensor (SDS) has completed functional testing and been delivered to the Kennedy Space Center for final integration checkout with the International Space Station (ISS). From there it will go into storage until a SpaceX launch vehicle is ready to deliver it to the ISS.  Launch is currently scheduled for late 2017.

The SDS is a flight demonstration of an impact sensor designed to detect and characterize impacts by small debris objects. The sensor will be attached to the ESA Columbus module facing the ISS velocity vector with one square meter of detection area.(snip)

Why would this be facing the velocity vector?
At first blush that would seem to be the direction of least debris flux.

Stuff at 400 km but going slower than the ISS would have a lower perigee.  That would take it into the denser atmosphere, where it's orbital lifetime would be less.  AIUI, that's why the ISS is flown at the altitude it does, so that the residual exosphere scrubs small debris from orbit.

Now a rearward facing surface would be exposed to debris with perigees at or below the ISS altitude but with higher apogees.  These would have higher velocity than the ISS and "catch up to it."

However, if one assumes that orbits circularize with greatest drag at perigee, small debris, with corresponding lower coefficients of drag, would act as if constantly being accelerated in the -V direction.  That would have them impinge from the front.

Does that mean that SDS expects minute debris to be in circularized orbits rather than elliptical?

I would think crossing orbits (polar, for instance) would be greatest debris impact risk (and the highest relative velocity).
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Olaf on 07/31/2017 12:28 PM
https://twitter.com/SpcPlcyOnline/status/889859004876419073
(http://up.picr.de/29950680zc.jpg)
This chart by Mr. Zurbuchen also says 2018 for TSIS-1.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 07/31/2017 02:15 PM
So we have multiple recent references for TSIS-1 launching in both 2017 and 2018.  One issue to consider is November 2017 is in Fiscal Year 2018, so you have to keep that in mind when interpreting some of the charts.  Hopefully we'll find more definitive information about the schedule soon.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: envy887 on 07/31/2017 03:02 PM
Space Debris Sensor Waiting For Launch (https://sma.nasa.gov/news/articles/newsitem/2017/02/07/space-debris-sensor-waiting-for-launch)
The Space Debris Sensor (SDS) has completed functional testing and been delivered to the Kennedy Space Center for final integration checkout with the International Space Station (ISS). From there it will go into storage until a SpaceX launch vehicle is ready to deliver it to the ISS.  Launch is currently scheduled for late 2017.

The SDS is a flight demonstration of an impact sensor designed to detect and characterize impacts by small debris objects. The sensor will be attached to the ESA Columbus module facing the ISS velocity vector with one square meter of detection area.(snip)

Why would this be facing the velocity vector?
At first blush that would seem to be the direction of least debris flux.

Stuff at 400 km but going slower than the ISS would have a lower perigee.  That would take it into the denser atmosphere, where it's orbital lifetime would be less.  AIUI, that's why the ISS is flown at the altitude it does, so that the residual exosphere scrubs small debris from orbit.

Now a rearward facing surface would be exposed to debris with perigees at or below the ISS altitude but with higher apogees.  These would have higher velocity than the ISS and "catch up to it."

However, if one assumes that orbits circularize with greatest drag at perigee, small debris, with corresponding lower coefficients of drag, would act as if constantly being accelerated in the -V direction.  That would have them impinge from the front.

Does that mean that SDS expects minute debris to be in circularized orbits rather than elliptical?

I would think crossing orbits (polar, for instance) would be greatest debris impact risk (and the highest relative velocity).

Yes. An object in an intersecting polar orbit would approach at a quartering angle from the front, at over 10 km/s relative velocity. An object in a overtaking orbit (like a GTO at perigee) could approach from behind, but would have no more than ~3 km/s relative velocity.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Comga on 08/01/2017 03:42 AM
Why would this [SDS/Dragons] be facing the velocity vector?
At first blush that would seem to be the direction of least debris flux.

(snip)

I would think crossing orbits (polar, for instance) would be greatest debris impact risk (and the highest relative velocity).

Good point on the risk and velocity, but wouldn't those impact on the sides? 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: AncientU on 08/01/2017 10:39 AM
Why would this [SDS/Dragons] be facing the velocity vector?
At first blush that would seem to be the direction of least debris flux.

(snip)

I would think crossing orbits (polar, for instance) would be greatest debris impact risk (and the highest relative velocity).

Good point on the risk and velocity, but wouldn't those impact on the sides?

Forward quarters, since sum of velocity vectors involved.  Descending polar plus ascending ISS would put peak velocity particles on leading face.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 08/04/2017 08:15 PM
[LASP : August 4, 2017] TSIS shipped to Kennedy Space Center for upcoming launch (http://lasp.colorado.edu/home/blog/2017/08/04/tsis-shipped-to-kennedy-space-center-for-upcoming-launch/)
Quote
A solar instrument package designed and built by LASP, considered a key tool to help monitor the planet’s climate, has arrived at NASA’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida for a targeted November launch.

The instrument suite is called the Total and Spectral solar Irradiance Sensor (TSIS-1) and was built for NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland. The contract value to LASP is $90 million and includes the dual instrument suite and an associated ground system to manage TSIS mission operations.

photo credit: TSIS-1 is shown here inside a clean room at NASA’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida. (Courtesy LASP/Tom Sparn)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Targeteer on 08/04/2017 08:54 PM
Leadup to the previous post

lasp.colorado.edu/home/blog/2017/08/04/tsis-shipped-to-kennedy-space-center-for-upcoming-launch/

TSIS shipped to Kennedy Space Center for upcoming launch

Posted August 4th, 2017

TSIS-1 is shown here inside a clean room at NASA’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida. (Courtesy LASP/Tom Sparn)

A solar instrument package designed and built by LASP, considered a key tool to help monitor the planet’s climate, has arrived at NASA’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida for a targeted November launch.

The instrument suite is called the Total and Spectral solar Irradiance Sensor (TSIS-1) and was built for NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland. The contract value to LASP is $90 million and includes the dual instrument suite and an associated ground system to manage TSIS mission operations.

TSIS-1 will launch on a commercial SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket in a Dragon capsule for delivery to the International Space Station (ISS). From there it will monitor the total amount of sunlight hitting Earth, as well as how the light is distributed among the ultraviolet, visible, and infrared wavelengths.

“We need to measure both because both affect Earth’s climate,” said Dong Wu, the TSIS-1 project scientist at NASA Goddard.

LASP Atmospheric Scientist Peter Pilewskie, lead mission scientist on the project, said TSIS will continue a 39-year record of measuring total solar radiation, the longest continuous climate record from space.

“These measurements are vital for understanding the climate system because the sun is the source of virtually all of Earth’s energy,” said Pilewskie, also a CU Boulder faculty member in the Department of Atmospheric and Oceanic Sciences. “How the atmosphere responds to subtle changes in the sun’s output helps us distinguish between natural and human influences on climate.”

Overall satellite measurements of the sun from space have shown that changes in its radiation over time—during periods of both high and low solar activity—is only about 0.1 percent. While scientists believe changes in solar output cannot explain Earth’s recent warming, a longer dataset could reveal greater swings in solar radiation.

TSIS-1 is comprised of the Total Irradiance Monitor, or TIM, which measures the total solar irradiance that is incident at the outer boundaries of the atmosphere; and the Spectral Irradiance Monitor, or SIM, which measures solar spectral irradiance (SSI) from 200 nm to 2400 nm (96 percent of the TSI). (Courtesy LASP)

TSIS consists of two instruments, including the Total Irradiance Monitor (TIM), which measures the total light coming from the sun at all wavelengths, said Pilewskie. The second LASP instrument, the Spectral Irradiance Monitor (SIM), will measure how the light from the sun is distributed by wavelength and absorbed by different parts of the planet’s atmosphere and surface.

One reason the SIM instrument is important is because measurements of the sun’s UV radiation are critical to understanding the condition of Earth’s protective ozone layer.

The TSIS instrument suite will be operated remotely from the LASP Space Technology Building in the CU Research Park.

The project involved about 30 scientists and engineers at LASP during its peak, as well as 10 additional support personnel from Colorado and about 10 more from outside of Colorado, said TSIS-1 Project Manager Brian Boyle of LASP. The mission, slated to run at least five years, also has involved about 15 to 20 CU-Boulder undergraduate and graduate students to date.

LASP has made solar radiation measurements from orbit on seven missions since 1975, including the $100 million SORCE satellite designed, built, and controlled from campus.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Ragmar on 08/08/2017 06:36 PM
With OA-8 reportedly looking to go up in October or November, will this push CRS-12 back?  Or would both missions go up in the same month?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 08/08/2017 07:02 PM
With OA-8 reportedly looking to go up in October or November, will this push CRS-12 back?  Or would both missions go up in the same month?

Cygnus and Dragon have launched a couple weeks apart before, it's not a big deal.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 08/11/2017 06:40 PM
http://spacenews.com/teledyne-brown-offers-iss-platform-for-testing-spacecraft-parts-in-orbit-before-flying-them-for-real/
Quote
Teledyne Brown Engineering plans to install a hyperspectral imager built by the German Aerospace Center, DLR, in the firm’s International Space Station observatory in March.
DLR’s Earth Sensing Imaging Spectrometer will be the first payload tested on the Multi-User System for Earth Sensing (MUSES), Teledyne Brown’s external Earth-facing platform that traveled to the space station in June inside a SpaceX Dragon cargo capsule.

This presentation from February says that
Quote
[MUSES] Instruments launched in “soft stowage”
Quote
DESIS
•Critical Design Review completed June 2016
•Planned launch on SpaceX-13, Q4, 2017
•DESIS commissioning during Q1/Q2,2018

Does anyone know if that is still the plan?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Ragmar on 08/12/2017 05:58 PM
However, as this is an extended duration Cygnus mission, will NASA delay this 1) so will they have the requirement for two missions at the same time, and 2) berthing port capacity?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Olaf on 08/13/2017 06:24 PM
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43347.msg1712257#msg1712257
Quote
Soyuz 50S return on 9/02
Soyuz 52S launch on 9/13
Progress in Oct.
Cygnus from Virginia in November.
Triple EVA in early-October thru November to change out LEE on the SSRMS.
No mention of Dragon in November, I would suggest NET December or 2018.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 08/13/2017 06:45 PM
around early December (from CRS-12 pre-launch press conference)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 08/23/2017 03:43 AM
[SpaceNews] 3-D printing and in-orbit manufacturing promise to transform space missions (http://spacenews.com/3-d-printing-and-in-orbit-manufacturing-promise-to-transform-space-missions/)
Quote
Q: What is the latest on your [Made In Space] optical fiber campaign?

A: It’s going really well. The flight unit is built and we are scheduled to fly on a [SpaceX] Dragon this year. We have produced fiber in our facility on the ground and are looking forward to flying that. We will be flying the payload multiple times on multiple flights because the focus is on making the minimum viable product that is scalable.

This is a fully robotic capability. The astronauts just plug it in. We send the signal for it to go. It pulls the fiber and monitors diameter. When it’s done, it can switch over to another free form, that’s the starting material we use, and produce more fiber without any special environment on the ISS, without significant crew involvement other than installation. ...

The article also mentions a failed protest Made In Space filed against a NASA SBIRS award to another company working on manufacturing fiber in space.  The decision said Made In Space didn't have standing to protest the award.  The GAO decision can be found here:
https://www.gao.gov/products/B-414490#mt=e-report (https://www.gao.gov/products/B-414490#mt=e-report)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 09/20/2017 07:29 PM
I guess this would be on CRS-13?

Quote
The Engine announces investments in first group of startups (http://news.mit.edu/2017/the-engine-announces-investments-first-group-startups-0919)

Analytical Space (https://www.analyticalspace.com/), founded by Harvard Business School graduates, aims to make downloading satellite data much faster. Every few hours, terabytes of data are collected by orbiting satellites, but downloading that data is becoming very costly and complex. The startup is building small satellite relays that use laser communication to enable continuous high-speed wireless connectivity between space and ground. The startup is now preparing to launch its first pilot on a SpaceX craft from the International Space Station later this year.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 09/26/2017 06:44 PM
People can have varying definitions of "working hard"...

Quote
Tweet from LASP TSIS (https://twitter.com/Go_TSIS/status/912743380572102656)
The TSIS engineers are working hard today as we continue software testing with the ISS simulator.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: envy887 on 09/26/2017 06:53 PM
People can have varying definitions of "working hard"...

Quote
Tweet from LASP TSIS (https://twitter.com/Go_TSIS/status/912743380572102656)
The TSIS engineers are working hard today as we continue software testing with the ISS simulator.

I think the guy in the lower left is checking NSF on his phone :D
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Kansan52 on 09/26/2017 07:00 PM
I wondered what was so interesting on that phone!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 09/26/2017 10:11 PM
I wondered what was so interesting on that phone!
He's watching himself on the internet link to the camera feed. :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: crandles57 on 10/11/2017 01:35 PM
November 28th per https://spaceflightnow.com/launch-schedule/ Sept 30 change.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=8184.1440 says SLC-40 dating back to a change on 9th August but I cannot see source for that. sfn and launchphotography are not yet showing pad.

Is SLC-40 confirmed somewhere?

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 10/11/2017 01:40 PM
November 28th per https://spaceflightnow.com/launch-schedule/ Sept 30 change.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=8184.1440 says SLC-40 dating back to a change on 9th August but I cannot see source for that. sfn and launchphotography are not yet showing pad.

Is SLC-40 confirmed somewhere?

The pad is not confirmed, that is what we expected a couple months ago when the top post was last updated.  I will modify it.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: crandles57 on 10/11/2017 01:49 PM
Thanks for fast reply. Now I find

Quote
SLC-40 is not expected to be ready to support a launch until at least the end of November.
https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/10/falcon-9-second-launch-week-ses-11/
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Raul on 10/11/2017 06:53 PM
November 28th per https://spaceflightnow.com/launch-schedule/ Sept 30 change.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=8184.1440 says SLC-40 dating back to a change on 9th August but I cannot see source for that. sfn and launchphotography are not yet showing pad.

Is SLC-40 confirmed somewhere?

Yes. According official FCC application (https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/els/reports/STA_Print.cfm?mode=current&application_seq=80640&RequestTimeout=1000) issued last week (3th Oct) SpaceX plans launch CRS-13 mission from Complex 40.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: wannamoonbase on 10/11/2017 08:15 PM
November 28th per https://spaceflightnow.com/launch-schedule/ Sept 30 change.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=8184.1440 says SLC-40 dating back to a change on 9th August but I cannot see source for that. sfn and launchphotography are not yet showing pad.

Is SLC-40 confirmed somewhere?

Yes. According official FCC application (https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/els/reports/STA_Print.cfm?mode=current&application_seq=80640&RequestTimeout=1000) issued last week (3th Oct) SpaceX plans launch CRS-13 mission from Complex 40.

Then we should be seeing some roll out and testing in the next 2-4 weeks.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Kaputnik on 10/16/2017 11:54 AM
As reported here: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43976.msg1738038#msg1738038

Quote
SpaceX pitched the idea of a flown booster for CRS-13 to NASA and they will give them an answer in early November.

Source is a credible Reddit user.

A reused Dragon and a reused booster... I would love to see that :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: envy887 on 10/16/2017 02:13 PM
As reported here: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43976.msg1738038#msg1738038

Quote
SpaceX pitched the idea of a flown booster for CRS-13 to NASA and they will give them an answer in early November.

Source is a credible Reddit user.

A reused Dragon and a reused booster... I would love to see that :)

What exactly would NASA's motivation be to go with a used booster? It sounds like SpaceX is phasing out the discount, which was already so low that NASA probably wouldn't be very interested. Other customers would be interested in the schedule availability of a used booster, but to my understanding NASA already has #1 schedule priority.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: abaddon on 10/16/2017 02:26 PM
Does NASA contractually have the right to refuse SpaceX use a used booster?  I would imagine not, for CRS at least.

Obviously SpaceX won't do it if NASA objects, but I think the question is more on the other foot, meaning what NASA's motivation is to argue that it not use a previously flown booster.  As time goes by and (hopefully) more previously flown boosters are employed without failure, that seems harder and harder to justify.

CRS-13 might be too early, but it will happen at some point.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 10/16/2017 02:37 PM
Does NASA contractually have the right to refuse SpaceX use a used booster?  I would imagine not, for CRS at least.

Obviously SpaceX won't do it if NASA objects, but I think the question is more on the other foot, meaning what NASA's motivation is to argue that it not use a previously flown booster.  As time goes by and (hopefully) more previously flown boosters are employed without failure, that seems harder and harder to justify.

CRS-13 might be too early, but it will happen at some point.

Unless the contract explicitly allows the reflight of boosters, of course NASA has a right to refuse them.  The qualification process was for new boosters.

NASA could probably negotiate compensation from SpaceX for allowing the reuse of boosters, such as getting additional analysis/design/testing/data that would normally be paid for as additional "special studies" contracts, or getting addtional cargo mass/payload flexibility that would otherwise incur additional charges on a CRS flight (or even CCTCap test flights).

It would be great for SpaceX.  Other customers would see NASA accepting the refurbished boosters and it would provide a steady stream of launches for the refurbished boosters.  The uptake of refurbished boosters by customers is promising so far but there hasn't exactly been a stampede to switch to the used boosters.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Mike_1179 on 10/16/2017 02:41 PM
Does NASA contractually have the right to refuse SpaceX use a used booster?  I would imagine not, for CRS at least.

Obviously SpaceX won't do it if NASA objects, but I think the question is more on the other foot, meaning what NASA's motivation is to argue that it not use a previously flown booster.  As time goes by and (hopefully) more previously flown boosters are employed without failure, that seems harder and harder to justify.

CRS-13 might be too early, but it will happen at some point.

NASA is not a business. It's not trying to reduce costs or increase profits so that its shareholders get more. Part of its mandate is advancing the study aeronautics and space. Does allowing a US company to advance the study of hyersonic retropropulsion and orbital booster re-use align with those aims while still meeting the requirements of law requires them to do (ISS) while being good stewards of taxpayer money?

If it requires thousands of hours of civil-service employee time (which means it costs more), increases the cost of the flight or makes the risk of failure beyond what they see as acceptable, then of course you can see why they'd refuse to allow a re-flown booster. Even if there is no direct link between this re-use and cheaper CRS flights in the future, it is in the interest of NASA to support it at a reasonable level.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: abaddon on 10/16/2017 02:58 PM
Unless the contract explicitly allows the reflight of boosters, of course NASA has a right to refuse them.  The qualification process was for new boosters.
And yet we've heard many times on this site from people who appear to know what they are talking about is that NASA paid for delivery of cargo to the station, not for specific boosters or rides.  Unless you've seen the contract, how do you know?  I'm not claiming to know, by the way, because I don't.  That's why I asked the question.

Anyway, at some point I firmly believe it will happen (yes, without specific knowledge of the contract), but I think CRS-13 is likely too soon.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: su27k on 10/16/2017 04:53 PM
Does NASA contractually have the right to refuse SpaceX use a used booster?  I would imagine not, for CRS at least.

Obviously SpaceX won't do it if NASA objects, but I think the question is more on the other foot, meaning what NASA's motivation is to argue that it not use a previously flown booster.  As time goes by and (hopefully) more previously flown boosters are employed without failure, that seems harder and harder to justify.

CRS-13 might be too early, but it will happen at some point.

NASA can refuse if it feels the vehicle is not safe or ready based on its insights on the vehicle design and production. I don't think they can refuse just because it's reused or demand price reduction for a reused booster, since the price is written in the contract but the launch vehicle is not. We have seen both providers changing launch vehicle several times in the past, so I don't think it's a big deal, just need some work on both sides.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: rockets4life97 on 10/16/2017 06:07 PM
The CRS contracts are a major part of SpaceX's future manifest. If all those flights move to flight proven cores that will be a major win for SpaceX and re-use.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ChrisGebhardt on 10/16/2017 06:11 PM
For reference to the conversation here about CRS-13 using a flight-proven core...

https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/10/spacex-zuma-iridium-4-aims-vandenberg-landing/

Basically, all engineering and data reviews have cleared CRS missions to use once-flown Falcon 9 boosters that performed LEO-only missions.  It's with NASA management for the final yes/no decision at this point.

Final public decision expected early November.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mn on 10/16/2017 09:40 PM
... since the price is written in the contract but the launch vehicle is not...

Do we know for a fact what is in the contract?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Formica on 10/17/2017 12:14 AM
... since the price is written in the contract but the launch vehicle is not...

Do we know for a fact what is in the contract?

In terms of price, yes. The initial twelve launches were contracted for $1.6 billion, and the five extension missions were contracted at $700 million. So, about $135.3 million per launch if you combine the original contract with the extension.

The conventional wisdom seems to be that the contracts specify new boosters, but I have not yet come across documentation that specifies this one way or another.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_Resupply_Services
http://spacenews.com/spacex-wins-5-new-space-station-cargo-missions-in-nasa-contract-estimated-at-700-million/

Edit: section 18.3, page 31 of the following document is the most relevant text I've found so far with regard to new vs. used boosters. It does not explicitly describe that specific scenario, but it discusses NASA's rights under the contract to evaluate the fitness of the vehicle used to fulfill the contract. Beyond that, the contract doesn't seem to discuss or account for new or used launch vehicles.

https://www.nasa.gov/centers/johnson/pdf/418855main_oc_nnj09ga02b.pdf
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: deruch on 10/17/2017 03:49 AM
From the "Customers Views on Reuse" thread:

Back on topic.  In NASA's pre-launch briefing for CRS-10, Dan Hartman--Deputy Manager, ISS Program--addressed NASA's near term plans for reusing the Dragon capsule and future plans for reuse of the Falcon 9 boosters in response to a question from Stephen Clark from SFN.

Quote from: Dan Hartman, NASA Dep. Manager ISS Program
Our plan for CRS-11, it's going to be the Dragon [that will be reused].  Not the Falcon, not a reused booster.  We've done a lot of work with SpaceX, over the last year and a half or two, looking at delta-verification requirements that we need to be comfortable to satisfy ourselves that Dragon can approach the ISS, get within the ellipsoid, and be done safely.  So, a lot of technical work is happening.  I'll tell you, everything is leaning good.  That the next dragon mission that we'll launch will be reused. 
     As far as the booster, we've just started those discussions.  We've got some teams off generating how we'll even go about requesting information from SpaceX.  Laying out our plan.  I imagine we'll have some sort of preliminary review on that in the April/May time period.   I think planning-wise, it may not happen this year.  But shortly thereafter.

The exchange can be found at time mark 22m:25s in the below youtube video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z23RuPcdYD8

The fact that NASA has been in the process of determining exactly what needs review and how to go about approving the use of flight proven cores isn't new information.  That they may be in a position to approve using one this year is.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: vaporcobra on 10/18/2017 05:00 PM
TSIS confirmed to be launching on CRS-13, as well as a fancy conflicting launch date :)

Quote
TSIS is an International Space Station-bound instrument that will measure the sun's energy input to Earth. TSIS was build by LASP, integrated at Kennedy Space Center, and will launch in November on a SpaceX Falcon 9.

Just a fun Instagram account to follow in general, too!
https://www.instagram.com/p/BaZHxh6D3hF/

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ChrisGebhardt on 10/18/2017 10:32 PM
NET 4 December at 1952 GMT (1452 EST) according to Spaceflightnow.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Raul on 10/19/2017 11:55 AM
NASA Patch for SpX-13 mission
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ChrisGebhardt on 10/19/2017 12:40 PM
Per article on site, if NASA management approves flight-proven boosters for CRS missions, CRS-13 will use the CRS-11 booster from June of this year.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: jacqmans on 10/19/2017 12:45 PM
NET 4 December at 1952 GMT (1452 EST) according to Spaceflightnow.

ESA confirms the Dec 04 launch date..
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 10/19/2017 06:45 PM
Quote
Tweet from LASP TSIS (https://twitter.com/Go_TSIS/status/921073915635617792)
All planned activities at KSC are complete and TSIS is ready for turnover to SpaceX!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: almightycat on 10/25/2017 01:01 AM
Wired claims that the next two cargo missions for nasa will be on flown boosters:
https://www.wired.com/story/spacex-keeps-lining-up-covert-military-launches/

"NASA’s interest in SpaceX’s reusable technology seems to be growing as well. Sources at Kennedy Space Center tell WIRED that NASA and SpaceX have preliminarily agreed to launch the next two cargo resupply missions to ISS atop reusable rockets."
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Mader Levap on 10/25/2017 05:54 PM
NASA and SpaceX have preliminarily agreed to launch the next two cargo resupply missions to ISS atop reusable rockets."
Technically SpaceX launched NASA cargo on reusable rockets all this time. ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: wannamoonbase on 10/25/2017 08:28 PM
NASA and SpaceX have preliminarily agreed to launch the next two cargo resupply missions to ISS atop reusable rockets."
Technically SpaceX launched NASA cargo on reusable rockets all this time. ;)

That was my first thought too.  The wording of that statement could be made more clearly.

It may mean, launch on a fresh booster, then refly that booster for the next NASA mission.

Either way, if they fly a CRS mission on a re-used booster, that is a gigantic step forward.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ChrisGebhardt on 10/26/2017 09:24 PM
NASA confirmation that CRS-13 will go from SLC-40 in December.  https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-invites-media-to-upcoming-space-station-cargo-launch

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Media accreditation is open for launch of the next SpaceX commercial cargo resupply services mission to the International Space Station, currently targeted for no earlier than December.

The uncrewed Dragon cargo spacecraft, which was flown on SpaceX’s sixth commercial resupply mission to station for NASA, will launch on a Falcon 9 rocket. The launch will be the first this year from Space Launch Complex 40 at Cape Canaveral Air Force Station (CCAFS) in Florida.

Media prelaunch and launch activities will take place at CCAFS and NASA’s Kennedy Space Center, which is adjacent to CCAFS. Credentialing deadlines are as follows:

International media without U.S. citizenship must apply by 4:30 p.m. Wednesday, Nov. 1, for access to CCAFS or 4:30 p.m. Sunday, Nov. 19, for access to Kennedy media activities only.
U.S. media must apply by 4:30 p.m. Sunday, Nov. 26.
All media accreditation requests should be submitted online at:

https://media.ksc.nasa.gov/

For questions about accreditation, please email: ksc-media-accreditat@mail.nasa.gov. For other questions or additional information contact Kennedy’s newsroom at 321-867-2468.

This is the 13th SpaceX mission under NASA’s Commercial Resupply Services contract. In addition to supplies and equipment, Dragon will deliver several science investigations to the space station, including a NASA instrument called Total and Spectral Solar Irradiance Sensor, or TSIS-1, which will measure the Sun's energy input to Earth, and a fiber optic payload. Also manifested on this flight is an investigation sponsored by the Center for the Advancement of Science in Space known as Biorasis – Glucose Biosensor, which seeks to improve the accuracy of a wireless medically implantable continuous glucose biosensor for day-to-day diabetes management.

The International Space Station is a convergence of science, technology and human innovation that demonstrates new technologies and makes research breakthroughs not possible on Earth. The space station has been occupied continuously since November 2000. In that time, more than 200 people and a variety of international and commercial spacecraft have visited the orbiting laboratory. The space station remains the springboard to NASA's next great leap in exploration, including future missions to Mars.

For launch countdown coverage, NASA's launch blog, and more information about the mission, visit:

http://www.nasa.gov/spacex
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ChrisC on 10/26/2017 10:35 PM
Is there not a CRS-13 UPDATES thread?  By my understand of the ways and means of NSF, if there's a discussion thread, there's an updates thread :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 10/27/2017 12:35 AM
Is there not a CRS-13 UPDATES thread?  By my understand of the ways and means of NSF, if there's a discussion thread, there's an updates thread :)

The Updates thread doesn't really need to exist until a few weeks before the event (we're still about 5 weeks out from the launch).  Feel free to post any news in this thread.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ChrisC on 10/27/2017 03:43 AM
But in that case, this mission thread would normally be called just "CRS-13", not "CRS-13 discussion".  Normally you then split it into "updates" and "discussion" threads at some point closer to launch when things get busy.  The fact that there is a thread named "discussion" told me to go look for an "updates" thread.  In other words, this thread is misnamed.  (gets down off tiny soapbox)

(gets back up on it)
EDIT: I'm going to add more here instead of making another post so as not to annoy people with new activitiy notifications in this thread.

The below argument simply does not match what we've done here before, and I can prove it.  Go to the parent of this thread and look at the thread listing.  All* of the missions well into the future (next year) have a single thread, as expected.  BUT THEY AREN'T CALLED "DISCUSSION".  The discussion/updates thread content AND NAMING split doesn't happen until we get closer to launch and activity/interest picks up.  I'm complaining that this thread's name is breaking convention.  Honestly, I thought my original post above was going to immediately prompt a moderator here to go "yup!" and rename this thread.  Or do the split.
(gets back down off tiny, won't bring it up again)

* OK, "plenty" then :)  From the first page:

SpaceX Falcon 9 / Dragon 2 : SpX-DM1 : April, 2018 : General Thread
Falcon Heavy Demo Mission: NET Dec '17 :Updates/Relevant Discussion
SpaceX Falcon 9 : PAZ : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Jan. 30, 2018
SpaceX Falcon 9 : TESS : March 18, 2018 : GENERAL THREAD
SpaceX Falcon 9 : Spaceflight SSO-A (Sun Synch Express) : Q2 2018

All of these are all-encompassing threads that haven't been split yet.  That's what I expect to see, until they are split into updates+discussion.  It's funny how both us can point to evidence supporting our arguments :)  You do show that this problem is bigger than I thought, and so this thread is less of an outlier than I thought.  And finally, not really a big problem, just annoying for those of us who just want updates, like garidan said below ...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: IntoTheVoid on 10/27/2017 04:24 AM
But in that case, this mission thread would normally be called just "CRS-13", not "CRS-13 discussion".  Normally you then split it into "updates" and "discussion" threads at some point closer to launch when things get busy.  The fact that there is a thread named "discussion" told me to go look for an "updates" thread.  In other words, this thread is misnamed.  (gets down off tiny soapbox)
*snip*
 All of the missions well into the future (next year) have a single thread, as expected.  BUT THEY AREN'T CALLED "DISCUSSION".
Sorry, but you're mistaken. While your scenario sometimes happens, it is more the exception rather than the standard. Most often, a discussion thread is created when a launch is announced and an update thread is not created until much deeper in the process flow when there's solid data for an update thread without it going dormant for months on end.

For instance, the KoreaSat launch at the end of the month only got an update thread at the beginning of this month, while the discussion thread has existed since mid 2016. The first posts are generally updated to point to each other, and other relevant thread or articles, so you can pick a random mission thread (or 3) and check the date, then go to the opposite thread and compare the two dates. The update threads are often a year or more later. Iridium is also a bit of a special case, being a series, because there's not even much discussion on launch n+2, or n+1, until launch n actually launches.

On Edit:
'All' is quite a limiting word you've chosen. From just the 1st 2 pages...
Future :
Zuma has a discussion thread, no update.
Sentinel-6 (Jason-CS) has a discussion thread, no update.
SES-16 Govsat-1 has a discussion thread, no update.
Hispasat 30W-6 has a discussion thread, no update.
Telstar 19 has a discussion thread, no update.
Iridium Next 6 with GRACE FO has a discussion thread, no update.
Past:
Koreasat 5a: Discussion: Aug 2016 Update: Oct 2017
SES-11: Discussion: Jul 2016 Update: Sep 2017
Formosat 5: Discussion: Jun 2010 Update: Jul 2017
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: garidan on 10/27/2017 02:18 PM
I too was looking for the update thread, because I just read of the SLC-40 news on twitter and I was looking for a "certified" note, not a discussion about it.
As posts pass, this news will be buried by nonsense posts like this one of mine :-)
No problem, but even if "dormient" for long months, creating an update and a discussion thread at its announce would fit better with me, and ease the way for catching up readers along the way to launch.
But it's just me :-)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: woods170 on 10/29/2017 04:38 PM
Taking a non-L2-worthy sub-discussion to the public part of the forum:

Four words: Tang, t-shirts, toilet paper.

"External cargo: Space Debris Sensor, MISSE-FF, TSIS"

That's some fairly pricy toilet paper going up.


See here, Appendix B: https://nodis3.gsfc.nasa.gov/npg_img/N_PR_8705_0004_/N_PR_8705_0004_.pdf (https://nodis3.gsfc.nasa.gov/npg_img/N_PR_8705_0004_/N_PR_8705_0004_.pdf)

For launch vehicles, see here: https://nodis3.gsfc.nasa.gov/NPD_attachments/AttachmentA_7C.pdf (https://nodis3.gsfc.nasa.gov/NPD_attachments/AttachmentA_7C.pdf)

Take-away: Risk classification has exactly NOTHING to do with the items being expensive or not.

NASA has certified Falcon 9 for flying Category 2 (Medium Risk) missions only. This in turn means that only Class C and Class D payloads (and sometimes Class B, provided it has been granted a waiver) can be flown on Cargo Dragon. Space Debris Sensor, MISSE-FF and TSIS are all Class C payloads, regardless of them being expensive or not.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: deruch on 10/29/2017 05:41 PM
Taking a non-L2-worthy sub-discussion to the public part of the forum:

Four words: Tang, t-shirts, toilet paper.

"External cargo: Space Debris Sensor, MISSE-FF, TSIS"

That's some fairly pricy toilet paper going up.


See here, Appendix B: https://nodis3.gsfc.nasa.gov/npg_img/N_PR_8705_0004_/N_PR_8705_0004_.pdf (https://nodis3.gsfc.nasa.gov/npg_img/N_PR_8705_0004_/N_PR_8705_0004_.pdf)

For launch vehicles, see here: https://nodis3.gsfc.nasa.gov/NPD_attachments/AttachmentA_7C.pdf (https://nodis3.gsfc.nasa.gov/NPD_attachments/AttachmentA_7C.pdf)

Take-away: Risk classification has exactly NOTHING to do with the items being expensive or not.

NASA has certified Falcon 9 for flying Category 2 (Medium Risk) missions only. This in turn means that only Class C and Class D payloads (and sometimes Class B, provided it has been granted a waiver) can be flown on Cargo Dragon. Space Debris Sensor, MISSE-FF and TSIS are all Class C payloads, regardless of them being expensive or not.
Ummmm... Cost is listed right there in the Risk Classification table.  At one point, I saw actual dollar amounts being corresponded to those classifications but I can't seem to find the source document right now.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: woods170 on 10/29/2017 07:49 PM
Taking a non-L2-worthy sub-discussion to the public part of the forum:

Four words: Tang, t-shirts, toilet paper.

"External cargo: Space Debris Sensor, MISSE-FF, TSIS"

That's some fairly pricy toilet paper going up.


See here, Appendix B: https://nodis3.gsfc.nasa.gov/npg_img/N_PR_8705_0004_/N_PR_8705_0004_.pdf (https://nodis3.gsfc.nasa.gov/npg_img/N_PR_8705_0004_/N_PR_8705_0004_.pdf)

For launch vehicles, see here: https://nodis3.gsfc.nasa.gov/NPD_attachments/AttachmentA_7C.pdf (https://nodis3.gsfc.nasa.gov/NPD_attachments/AttachmentA_7C.pdf)

Take-away: Risk classification has exactly NOTHING to do with the items being expensive or not.

NASA has certified Falcon 9 for flying Category 2 (Medium Risk) missions only. This in turn means that only Class C and Class D payloads (and sometimes Class B, provided it has been granted a waiver) can be flown on Cargo Dragon. Space Debris Sensor, MISSE-FF and TSIS are all Class C payloads, regardless of them being expensive or not.
Ummmm... Cost is listed right there in the Risk Classification table.  At one point, I saw actual dollar amounts being corresponded to those classifications but I can't seem to find the source document right now.
My statement stands. Risk clasification is based on a combination of factors. Cost alone never determines the risk factor. Hence my statement.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: meekGee on 10/29/2017 08:33 PM
Taking a non-L2-worthy sub-discussion to the public part of the forum:

Four words: Tang, t-shirts, toilet paper.

"External cargo: Space Debris Sensor, MISSE-FF, TSIS"

That's some fairly pricy toilet paper going up.


See here, Appendix B: https://nodis3.gsfc.nasa.gov/npg_img/N_PR_8705_0004_/N_PR_8705_0004_.pdf (https://nodis3.gsfc.nasa.gov/npg_img/N_PR_8705_0004_/N_PR_8705_0004_.pdf)

For launch vehicles, see here: https://nodis3.gsfc.nasa.gov/NPD_attachments/AttachmentA_7C.pdf (https://nodis3.gsfc.nasa.gov/NPD_attachments/AttachmentA_7C.pdf)

Take-away: Risk classification has exactly NOTHING to do with the items being expensive or not.

NASA has certified Falcon 9 for flying Category 2 (Medium Risk) missions only. This in turn means that only Class C and Class D payloads (and sometimes Class B, provided it has been granted a waiver) can be flown on Cargo Dragon. Space Debris Sensor, MISSE-FF and TSIS are all Class C payloads, regardless of them being expensive or not.
Ummmm... Cost is listed right there in the Risk Classification table.  At one point, I saw actual dollar amounts being corresponded to those classifications but I can't seem to find the source document right now.

I get the intent of this table, but this is the most evasive-qualitative table I've seen in a long time...

Second from last row:
Significant, some-or-few, few-or-no, no.
Lovely.

Second row:
Very high, high, medium, medium-to-low
They almost had at least four different words there, but had to ruin it at the end.

How can this table be used to make real decisions, other than "fly JSWT on the most reliable rocket you can find"?

And what if there's a payload whose cost is low, but is irreplaceable?  (Should have been:  Cost to replace)

Anyway, that was a rant, in case nobody noticed.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: 192 on 10/29/2017 10:27 PM
Taking a non-L2-worthy sub-discussion to the public part of the forum:

Four words: Tang, t-shirts, toilet paper.

"External cargo: Space Debris Sensor, MISSE-FF, TSIS"

That's some fairly pricy toilet paper going up.


See here, Appendix B: https://nodis3.gsfc.nasa.gov/npg_img/N_PR_8705_0004_/N_PR_8705_0004_.pdf (https://nodis3.gsfc.nasa.gov/npg_img/N_PR_8705_0004_/N_PR_8705_0004_.pdf)

For launch vehicles, see here: https://nodis3.gsfc.nasa.gov/NPD_attachments/AttachmentA_7C.pdf (https://nodis3.gsfc.nasa.gov/NPD_attachments/AttachmentA_7C.pdf)

Take-away: Risk classification has exactly NOTHING to do with the items being expensive or not.

NASA has certified Falcon 9 for flying Category 2 (Medium Risk) missions only. This in turn means that only Class C and Class D payloads (and sometimes Class B, provided it has been granted a waiver) can be flown on Cargo Dragon. Space Debris Sensor, MISSE-FF and TSIS are all Class C payloads, regardless of them being expensive or not.

Looking at the Category 3 part of the certification table, it seems the only requirement for alternative 1 not required for both Category 2 alternatives is 14 consecutive successful launches, can we expect Falcon 9 to be Category 3 certified soon seeing as it has 15 so far this year?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: rockets4life97 on 10/29/2017 10:34 PM
I expect F9 Block V will be certified to fly class A and B late next year. I would think humans would count as class A+.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Chris Bergin on 10/30/2017 11:00 AM
NASA's approved CRS-13 to fly on CRS-11's booster. We've been following it in L2, but it has now become a decision, so that's great news. More in the coming period, but to get the news out there, added it to William's Koreasat article:
https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/10/falcon-9-koreasat-5a-nasa-approves-flown-boosters/
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Kaputnik on 10/30/2017 11:13 AM
Brilliant news. I wonder if this booster becomes a candidate for three flights, as it will be the first reflown one not to have had a GTO mission and hot entry.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 10/30/2017 12:08 PM
Brilliant news. I wonder if this booster becomes a candidate for three flights, as it will be the first reflown one not to have had a GTO mission and hot entry.

Yes, fantastic news. I think whether it flies a third time may depend on how block 5 is coming along. If SpaceX have enough recovered boosters to have at most one reflight each, before flight proven block 5s are available, then I think they'll wait for a block 5 to be the first to fly thrice.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Chris Bergin on 10/30/2017 05:28 PM
NASA PAO want us to add a note it's not an official decision on flight proven. Standard for something they want to control per going official. Obviously adhered to that request, holding to our stance (as I know it's accurate) but adding in their request to note the status of NASA's public stance. :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 11/10/2017 03:51 PM
Quote
NASA’s Dan Hartman: “Chances are” we’ll agree with SpaceX to fly reused Falcon 9 booster on CRS-13 cargo flight to station in December. Still awaiting final readiness review and assessments.

https://twitter.com/stephenclark1/status/929026335640571907

Quote
Hartman: in final stages determining if we’ll fly SpX-13 on a previously-flown Falcon 9 booster. One more SpaceX review; if that comes back positive, likely we will do so.

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/929026203985633280
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mn on 11/10/2017 05:02 PM
Quote
NASA’s Dan Hartman: “Chances are” we’ll agree with SpaceX to fly reused Falcon 9 booster on CRS-13 cargo flight to station in December. Still awaiting final readiness review and assessments.

https://twitter.com/stephenclark1/status/929026335640571907

Quote
Hartman: in final stages determining if we’ll fly SpX-13 on a previously-flown Falcon 9 booster. One more SpaceX review; if that comes back positive, likely we will do so.

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/929026203985633280

If they were to decide not to go with previously flown booster, does that mean they still fly Dec 4 with a new booster? or a likely delay? (seems kind of late to be deciding which booster to use for a flight in roughly 3 weeks?)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mme on 11/10/2017 05:14 PM
Quote
NASA’s Dan Hartman: “Chances are” we’ll agree with SpaceX to fly reused Falcon 9 booster on CRS-13 cargo flight to station in December. Still awaiting final readiness review and assessments.

https://twitter.com/stephenclark1/status/929026335640571907

Quote
Hartman: in final stages determining if we’ll fly SpX-13 on a previously-flown Falcon 9 booster. One more SpaceX review; if that comes back positive, likely we will do so.

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/929026203985633280
Remember when people said that adoption of reused boosters would be slow and that NASA would be too conservative?

<fan>
I don't think the goal posts will be able to outpace acceptance much longer. :)
</fan>
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Space Ghost 1962 on 11/10/2017 05:17 PM
AF won't be far behind.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 11/10/2017 05:21 PM
Remember when people said that adoption of reused boosters would be slow and that NASA would be too conservative?

CRS has much more risk tolerance than other NASA flights.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Space Ghost 1962 on 11/10/2017 05:26 PM
Remember when people said that adoption of reused boosters would be slow and that NASA would be too conservative?

CRS has much more risk tolerance than other NASA flights.

Also flight frequency than other NASA flights. Meaning more  data to feed into risk model so as to characterize for less risk tolerant flight's use.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mme on 11/10/2017 05:29 PM
Remember when people said that adoption of reused boosters would be slow and that NASA would be too conservative?

CRS has much more risk tolerance than other NASA flights.
True but a month ago "common knowledge" was that NASA would not fly CRS missions on reused boosters because they already "paid for a new booster" and "were too conservative."

Anyway, I didn't mean to derail this thread.  Maybe I should have responded on the customers views on reusability thread.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: oiorionsbelt on 11/10/2017 11:54 PM
Remember when people said that adoption of reused boosters would be slow and that NASA would be too conservative?

CRS has much more risk tolerance than other NASA flights.
Channeling your inner Jim there.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: QuantumG on 11/12/2017 01:28 AM
True but a month ago "common knowledge" was that NASA would not fly CRS missions on reused boosters because they already "paid for a new booster" and "were too conservative."

Lots of people say lots of things. I remember at least a few people (possibly even Jim) who said nope, it's pay for service.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Sesquipedalian on 11/21/2017 03:11 AM
This will be the first time SpaceX has launched 4 Dragon flights in a year.  (The previous record was 3 in 2015, but the third of those was CRS-7.)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: docmordrid on 11/22/2017 07:50 AM
Which mission was flight 1 for this Dragon?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Elthiryel on 11/22/2017 11:28 AM
Flight 1 for this Dragon was CRS-6, on April 14th, 2015.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ValmirGP on 11/22/2017 02:31 PM
Remember when people said that adoption of reused boosters would be slow and that NASA would be too conservative?

CRS has much more risk tolerance than other NASA flights.
True but a month ago "common knowledge" was that NASA would not fly CRS missions on reused boosters because they already "paid for a new booster" and "were too conservative."

Anyway, I didn't mean to derail this thread.  Maybe I should have responded on the customers views on reusability thread.

If the perception of "they already paid" holds, could it be that possibly NASA will seek to make an amendment to the SpaceX CRS contracts so as to get more flights out of them per the sums paid for using the used reflown boosters?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: intrepidpursuit on 11/24/2017 11:51 PM
Remember when people said that adoption of reused boosters would be slow and that NASA would be too conservative?

CRS has much more risk tolerance than other NASA flights.
True but a month ago "common knowledge" was that NASA would not fly CRS missions on reused boosters because they already "paid for a new booster" and "were too conservative."

Anyway, I didn't mean to derail this thread.  Maybe I should have responded on the customers views on reusability thread.

If the perception of "they already paid" holds, could it be that possibly NASA will seek to make an amendment to the SpaceX CRS contracts so as to get more flights out of them per the sums paid for using the used reflown boosters?

People have said repeatedly on these forums that launches are a service and that while the buyer has some input on the vehicle they do not own it nor do they have a right to it. The contract may well have allowed this from the beginning as long as the boosters met NASA requirements when they are ready to fly the mission.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Coastal Ron on 11/25/2017 12:22 AM
People have said repeatedly on these forums that launches are a service and that while the buyer has some input on the vehicle they do not own it nor do they have a right to it.

True. But because the market is relatively small, there is a relatively small number of providers, and the services to be rendered require a lot of engineering interface, customers do have a lot of insight into the service providers. NASA has been a significant customer for SpaceX since before Falcon 9 started flying, and they have been provided constant updates and insight into what SpaceX has been doing.

Quote
The contract may well have allowed this from the beginning as long as the boosters met NASA requirements when they are ready to fly the mission.

As I recall the original Commercial Cargo CRS-1 contract was said to be for new boosters only, but there is the possibility that the CRS-2 contract anticipated reusable boosters.

However, SpaceX was providing discounts to early customers that chose to fly on previously flown boosters, so NASA might be getting a discount on this flight too. Not that the discount is the major incentive, since I think NASA wants to encourage reusable space transportation systems, and is willing to help that goal by using early versions of that service.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: QuantumG on 11/25/2017 03:10 AM
As I recall the original Commercial Cargo CRS-1 contract was said to be for new boosters only, but there is the possibility that the CRS-2 contract anticipated reusable boosters.

I remember when the first Falcon 9 upgrade came around everyone was saying SpaceX would have to keep using the old boosters for CRS. They were wrong. The JASON-1 mission had the requirement but CRS didn't. CRS is a service contract. SpaceX doesn't even have to use Dragon if they don't want.

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: dorkmo on 11/25/2017 03:25 PM
As I recall the original Commercial Cargo CRS-1 contract was said to be for new boosters only, but there is the possibility that the CRS-2 contract anticipated reusable boosters.

I remember when the first Falcon 9 upgrade came around everyone was saying SpaceX would have to keep using the old boosters for CRS. They were wrong. The JASON-1 mission had the requirement but CRS didn't. CRS is a service contract. SpaceX doesn't even have to use Dragon if they don't want.

and didnt orbital use atlas?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Coastal Ron on 11/25/2017 03:34 PM
I remember when the first Falcon 9 upgrade came around everyone was saying SpaceX would have to keep using the old boosters for CRS. They were wrong. The JASON-1 mission had the requirement but CRS didn't. CRS is a service contract.

That seems to fit.

Quote
SpaceX doesn't even have to use Dragon if they don't want.

SpaceX may not have to use Dragon, but they have to use a spacecraft that has been certified by NASA for ISS cargo deliveries. Which is quite different than just using whatever rocket happens to be available to push a spacecraft towards the ISS.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: deruch on 11/26/2017 07:30 AM
With NASA agreement/approval, SpaceX can alter how they fulfill the contract.  But that also means that NASA can use their position to negotiate compensation for those considerations.  Such "compensation" doesn't have to be actual money but can rather be additional or expanded services that are of value to NASA.  See the OIG report on NASA's response to the CRS-7 failure where they discuss NASA's managing of the CRS contract with SpaceX in the aftermath for examples.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Jim on 11/26/2017 03:24 PM
People have said repeatedly on these forums that launches are a service and that while the buyer has some input on the vehicle they do not own it nor do they have a right to it.

True. But because the market is relatively small, there is a relatively small number of providers, and the services to be rendered require a lot of engineering interface, customers do have a lot of insight into the service providers. NASA has been a significant customer for SpaceX since before Falcon 9 started flying, and they have been provided constant updates and insight into what SpaceX has been doing.

Quote
The contract may well have allowed this from the beginning as long as the boosters met NASA requirements when they are ready to fly the mission.

As I recall the original Commercial Cargo CRS-1 contract was said to be for new boosters only, but there is the possibility that the CRS-2 contract anticipated reusable boosters.

However, SpaceX was providing discounts to early customers that chose to fly on previously flown boosters, so NASA might be getting a discount on this flight too. Not that the discount is the major incentive, since I think NASA wants to encourage reusable space transportation systems, and is willing to help that goal by using early versions of that service.

It's none of that. 

ISS CRS is completely separate from the rest of NASA launch vehicle users.  CRS only really worries about the cargo getting to the ISS and has little insight to the booster.  They rely on LSP for advice but it is at a high level.  This is completely different from the LSP managed missions, which there has only been one. 

So it is wrong to characterize ISS dealings with Spacex as  the overall "NASA" relationship.  Take away ISS cargo missions, and "NASA" really has little to with Spacex.  Basically, just as much as it has with Pegasus in the last few years.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: envy887 on 11/26/2017 08:24 PM
People have said repeatedly on these forums that launches are a service and that while the buyer has some input on the vehicle they do not own it nor do they have a right to it.

True. But because the market is relatively small, there is a relatively small number of providers, and the services to be rendered require a lot of engineering interface, customers do have a lot of insight into the service providers. NASA has been a significant customer for SpaceX since before Falcon 9 started flying, and they have been provided constant updates and insight into what SpaceX has been doing.

Quote
The contract may well have allowed this from the beginning as long as the boosters met NASA requirements when they are ready to fly the mission.

As I recall the original Commercial Cargo CRS-1 contract was said to be for new boosters only, but there is the possibility that the CRS-2 contract anticipated reusable boosters.

However, SpaceX was providing discounts to early customers that chose to fly on previously flown boosters, so NASA might be getting a discount on this flight too. Not that the discount is the major incentive, since I think NASA wants to encourage reusable space transportation systems, and is willing to help that goal by using early versions of that service.

It's none of that. 

ISS CRS is completely separate from the rest of NASA launch vehicle users.  CRS only really worries about the cargo getting to the ISS and has little insight to the booster.  They rely on LSP for advice but it is at a high level.  This is completely different from the LSP managed missions, which there has only been one. 

So it is wrong to characterize ISS dealings with Spacex as  the overall "NASA" relationship.  Take away ISS cargo missions, and "NASA" really has little to with Spacex.  Basically, just as much as it has with Pegasus in the last few years.
Who managed the DSCOVR and Jason launches?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: QuantumG on 11/26/2017 08:29 PM
Yeah, I did assume we were talking about CRS... it being a CRS thread and all. Silly of me, I know.  8)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: CyndyC on 11/26/2017 08:45 PM
I might sound a little like Zach here, but is anyone else going to be watching this launch & delivery with a more cautious eye than usual, because of a certain predecessor with the same & unlucky number? That thinking may be more superstitious than advanced education should allow, and only because the first #13 anomaly was literally close to home for me (the only reason my dad wasn't one of the first men in space was because at 6'3" he was too tall for the Gemini Mercury capsule, and the Lovells were family friends), or it could represent the real possibility of a Poisson distribution leaning in an unfavorable direction, as one actually did when 3 ISS deliveries in a row were not completed.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 11/26/2017 08:46 PM
Who managed the DSCOVR and Jason launches?

DSCOVR was USAF.  Jason-3 was NASA LSP.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: The Roadie on 11/26/2017 09:16 PM
Flight 1 for this Dragon was CRS-6, on April 14th, 2015.
The refurbishment effort for that mission was judged to be too high. This booster was used on CRS11 last June.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Coastal Ron on 11/26/2017 09:36 PM
I might sound a little like Zach here, but is anyone else going to be watching this launch & delivery with a more cautious eye than usual, because of a certain predecessor with the same & unlucky number? That thinking may be more superstitious than advanced education should allow..., or it could represent the real possibility of a Poisson distribution leaning in an unfavorable direction, as one actually did when 3 ISS deliveries in a row were not completed.

If everyone is just focused on their normal jobs, from the factory to the launch pad, then it shouldn't matter which number the vehicle is or the flight is. If people are trying to force meaning onto things that seem to parallel the past, then there could be abnormalities that are introduced.

But let's keep in mind that being the 13th of anything SpaceX will increasingly become rare once reusability is in full swing.

Quote
...and only because the first #13 anomaly was literally close to home for me (the only reason my dad wasn't one of the first men in space was because at 6'3" he was too tall for the Gemini capsule, and the Lovells were family friends)...

Now THAT'S a story that would be worth hearing. Have you talked about this in the more appropriate NSF forums?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: intrepidpursuit on 11/26/2017 10:33 PM
Flight 1 for this Dragon was CRS-6, on April 14th, 2015.
The refurbishment effort for that mission was judged to be too high. This booster was used on CRS11 last June.

The CRS-11 Dragon was also the CRS-4 Dragon and landed in July of this year and definitely isn't being reused again so quickly. The CRS-6 booster wasn't recovered so it certainly won't be reused.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: IanThePineapple on 11/26/2017 10:36 PM
It will be great when a booster and capsule from the same mission are reunited.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Elthiryel on 11/26/2017 10:46 PM
Flight 1 for this Dragon was CRS-6, on April 14th, 2015.
The refurbishment effort for that mission was judged to be too high. This booster was used on CRS11 last June.

Yeah, that's right, obviously. But the question was about the Dragon capsule, not the Falcon first stage.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: joek on 11/26/2017 11:36 PM
...
As I recall the original Commercial Cargo CRS-1 contract was said to be for new boosters only, but there is the possibility that the CRS-2 contract anticipated reusable boosters.
...

CRS contract did not stipulate new-used-whatever, only that SpaceX would fulfill the contract using SpaceX manufactured Dragon capsules and F9 LV's.  (There's a long discussion of that with quoted contract verbiage somewhere in an old thread.)

In any case, a services contract could not specify new-used-whatever without risking running afoul of FAR rules.  However, NASA has ultimate say on acceptance--whether they deem the capabilities used to provide those services suitable.  (Somewhere in that same old thread is a quote from NASA to that effect.)

In short, everyone is nominally correct.  Contract cannot state new-used-whatever, but NASA has the ultimate say in whether that new-used-whatever is acceptable.  Hope that helps clarify.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: edkyle99 on 11/27/2017 12:08 AM
I might sound a little like Zach here, but is anyone else going to be watching this launch & delivery with a more cautious eye than usual, because of a certain predecessor with the same & unlucky number?
SpaceX has already successfully performed several "13" missions.  F9-13 (Asiasat 6) and the B1013 booster flight that sent NASA's DSCOVR on its way, for example. 

Sure, GOES 13 has had problems and, ok, NOAA-13 didn't go so well, and, that's right, Explorer 13 reentered after two days and, right, Apollo 13 didn't get men onto the lunar surface, but it brought them all back alive.  Let's not talk about GAMBIT 13 (sigh).

On the other hand, NASA's originally-named STS-13 mission (renamed STS-41-C) was a big success (Solar Max capture and release, LDEF deploy).  Soyuz 13 went well.  Discoverer 13 was the first successful air-recovery back in 1960.  More than one GPS "13" has been successful. 

Still, my belief is that the odds of success for CRS-13 are essentially the same as they were for CRS-12, etc.  That is to say that the odds are very good.  Falcon 9's record has accrued to the point that it is becoming possible to rank it among the world's most reliable rockets. 

 - Ed Kyle
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: CyndyC on 11/27/2017 12:17 AM
I might sound a little like Zach here, but is anyone else going to be watching this launch & delivery with a more cautious eye than usual, because of a certain predecessor with the same & unlucky number? That thinking may be more superstitious than advanced education should allow..., or it could represent the real possibility of a Poisson distribution leaning in an unfavorable direction, as one actually did when 3 ISS deliveries in a row were not completed.

If everyone is just focused on their normal jobs, from the factory to the launch pad, then it shouldn't matter which number the vehicle is or the flight is. If people are trying to force meaning onto things that seem to parallel the past, then there could be abnormalities that are introduced.

But let's keep in mind that being the 13th of anything SpaceX will increasingly become rare once reusability is in full swing.

Thank you for adding some level-headed reasoning to my not-so-much.


...and only because the first #13 anomaly was literally close to home for me (the only reason my dad wasn't one of the first men in space was because at 6'3" he was too tall for the Gemini capsule, and the Lovells were family friends)...

Now THAT'S a story that would be worth hearing. Have you talked about this in the more appropriate NSF forums?

[edit- Mercury capsule not Gemini] I was only 6 at the time, my brother 5, and we didn't know all that was happening [edit- only recently put our heads together and recalled more detail]. Neither of my parents is still living to fill in the facts, but there probably aren't enough for a post in the history section anyway. I do remember my father being frustrated & angry, the Lovells coming over one evening, now I suspect to commiserate, Buzz Aldrin or someone resembling him stopping by for a brief conversation later that did not appear to go well, and then my father calling to congratulate "Glenn". Could be NASA did what they could to fit him into the capsule and couldn't, and/or offered to fit him into the space program elsewhere, the reason Buzz Aldrin(?) came by, but it would have been like my dad to be too angry he couldn't be one of the astronauts and refuse. His next gig was on the Saratoga.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: NX-0 on 11/27/2017 01:09 PM
I might sound a little like Zach here, but is anyone else going to be watching this launch & delivery with a more cautious eye than usual, because of a certain predecessor with the same & unlucky number?
I am not superstitious....but I am a little " 'stitious. "

13 is dubbed 'unlucky' hence we are more likely to point out anecdotal evidence of it being so.

In all honestly, if someone had have told me about planning for CRS-13 using slight proven S1 and Dragon among four planned flights for 2017 December, we'd all just chuckle and no one would mention triskaidekaphobia.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 11/27/2017 05:11 PM
A FYI reminder:
ISS SOP: Visiting Vehicle docking/berthing and undocking/unberthing is (generally?) avoided during ISS solar panel beta angle > 60 deg. "cutouts."  One of these occurs annually around the December solstice.

I assume, given the lack of a recent FPIP, that this is partially driving the scheduling of the unberthing of Cygnus OA-8, the berthing of Dragon SpX-13, the undocking of Soyuz MS-05, and the docking of Soyuz MS-07.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ChrisGebhardt on 11/27/2017 05:32 PM
A FYI reminder:
ISS SOP: Visiting Vehicle docking/berthing and undocking/unberthing is (generally?) avoided during ISS solar panel beta angle > 60 deg. "cutouts."  One of these occurs annually around the December solstice.

I assume, given the lack of a recent FPIP, that this is partially driving the scheduling of the unberthing of Cygnus OA-8, the berthing of Dragon SpX-13, the undocking of Soyuz MS-05, and the docking of Soyuz MS-07.

The upcoming Solar Beta Angle cutout is 17-27.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: jimvela on 11/27/2017 08:23 PM
Launch date is now 8 December...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Comga on 11/27/2017 08:28 PM
A FYI reminder:
ISS SOP: Visiting Vehicle docking/berthing and undocking/unberthing is (generally?) avoided during ISS solar panel beta angle > 60 deg. "cutouts."  One of these occurs annually around the December solstice.

I assume, given the lack of a recent FPIP, that this is partially driving the scheduling of the unberthing of Cygnus OA-8, the berthing of Dragon SpX-13, the undocking of Soyuz MS-05, and the docking of Soyuz MS-07.

The upcoming Solar Beta Angle cutout is 17-27.

Is that December 17th thru 27th?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mainmind on 11/27/2017 08:53 PM
A FYI reminder:
ISS SOP: Visiting Vehicle docking/berthing and undocking/unberthing is (generally?) avoided during ISS solar panel beta angle > 60 deg. "cutouts."  One of these occurs annually around the December solstice.

I assume, given the lack of a recent FPIP, that this is partially driving the scheduling of the unberthing of Cygnus OA-8, the berthing of Dragon SpX-13, the undocking of Soyuz MS-05, and the docking of Soyuz MS-07.

The upcoming Solar Beta Angle cutout is 17-27.

Is that December 17th thru 27th?

Yes - December 17 through 27
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 11/27/2017 08:56 PM
Launch date is now [NET] 8 December...

What the (approximate?) launch time/window, day-by-day, going forward from December 8?  (I remember that the launch time shifts several minutes earlier per day, but I do not remember the amount.)

(The December 4 launch time was 19:53 UTC--I believe it was in the middle of a 5-minute window.)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mainmind on 11/27/2017 09:03 PM
Launch date is now [NET] 8 December...

What the (approximate?) launch time/window, day-by-day, going forward from December 8?  (I remember that the launch time shifts several minutes earlier per day, but I do not remember the amount.)

(The December 4 launch time was 19:53 UTC--I believe it was in the middle of a 5-minute window.)

My memory is a little fuzzy, but I think the launch window gets earlier by 23 minutes for every day of delay. So four days of delay could be a window that is 92 minutes earlier, and the windows for Dragons are instantaneous.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Jcc on 11/27/2017 11:25 PM
Not wishing to push "luck", but does anyone know if this Dragon will have intentional defects in the heat shield in order to test micrometeoroid impact effects?

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Jet Black on 11/28/2017 01:14 PM

But let's keep in mind that being the 13th of anything SpaceX will increasingly become rare once reusability is in full swing.


I disagree; eventually every single rocket will have a 13th launch and a 13th reuse (launch 14), to go along with all the other accrued 13s. (not that it matters to the missions, it's just a number)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Mike_1179 on 11/28/2017 02:13 PM
Not wishing to push "luck", but does anyone know if this Dragon will have intentional defects in the heat shield in order to test micrometeoroid impact effects?


That's not "luck" you'd be talking about. Back in shuttle days, they'd call something like that a DTO (detailed test objective). In one, they wanted to evaluate how the boundary layer would transition from laminar to turbulent flow on re-entry, so they built protuberances on the underside of the orbiter and installed thermocouples downstream of these to see how it affected heat transfer. Some guy wrote a bunch of articles about it: https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2009/05/sts-119-blt-test-success-gains-greater-understanding-reentry/. Once they got data on one, they went back and made the protuberances larger to further refine the modeling.

So, you can do tests like this on re-entry vehicles, but its not done with hope of luck or handwaving - you do a lot of work to make sure you're safe and to validate your computer models. Then you perform tests of varying degrees of conservatism based on your level of risk you want to accept / data you have collected.

What could be learned from a DTO on Dragon re-entry that wouldn't be learned in an arcjet test facility: https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/files/Arcfacts_b.pdf
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 11/28/2017 02:27 PM
Not wishing to push "luck", but does anyone know if this Dragon will have intentional defects in the heat shield in order to test micrometeoroid impact effects?

For anyone not understanding where this question came from, it was mentioned at the most recent ASAP meeting (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=35717.msg1741553#msg1741553):
Quote
The modeling of MMOD is a very challenging analysis, and there are notable uncertainties in the calculation. NASA is continuing to work on the modeling problem through proposed MMOD sampling experiments on the International Space Station (ISS), which is an outstanding use of the vehicle for this type of analysis. The team is also working on some unique defect testing with the Dragon cargo mission to recover and study the Dragon after it returns to help reduce modeling uncertainties on MMOD damage. In other words, defects are being deliberately placed on Dragon to try to simulate some of the MMOD scenarios.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 11/28/2017 02:35 PM
Tweet from LASP (https://twitter.com/LASPatCU/status/935531377767976960):
Quote
#LASP and #CUBoulder atmospheric scientist, Peter Pilewskie, will participate in a @Reddit AMA about all things TSIS-1 and Sun-Earth interactions: https://redd.it/7g3qxd —starting at 3 PM ET today.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: edkyle99 on 11/28/2017 04:03 PM
Flight 1 for this Dragon was CRS-6, on April 14th, 2015.
That would be Dragon C108, then, if I'm counting correctly.

 - Ed Kyle
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: deruch on 11/28/2017 06:04 PM
For anyone not understanding where this question came from, it was mentioned at the most recent ASAP meeting (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=35717.msg1741553#msg1741553):
Quote
The modeling of MMOD is a very challenging analysis, and there are notable uncertainties in the calculation. NASA is continuing to work on the modeling problem through proposed MMOD sampling experiments on the International Space Station (ISS), which is an outstanding use of the vehicle for this type of analysis. The team is also working on some unique defect testing with the Dragon cargo mission to recover and study the Dragon after it returns to help reduce modeling uncertainties on MMOD damage. In other words, defects are being deliberately placed on Dragon to try to simulate some of the MMOD scenarios.

Why do I get the feeling that this test has come about due to an disagreement between NASA and SpaceX on just how robust their heat shield is to MMOD damage?  Like, SpaceX's modeling and analysis shows that they believe the Dragon capsule can still survive reentry with X amount of MMOD damage having been done to the heat shield and NASA's (likely more conservative) modeling/analysis says Y.  So, since SpaceX are working hard to meet the LOC/LOM numbers requirements for Commercial Crew, they've said, "Look, we'll prove it to you with the cargo Dragon."
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: russianhalo117 on 11/28/2017 06:26 PM
For anyone not understanding where this question came from, it was mentioned at the most recent ASAP meeting (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=35717.msg1741553#msg1741553):
Quote
The modeling of MMOD is a very challenging analysis, and there are notable uncertainties in the calculation. NASA is continuing to work on the modeling problem through proposed MMOD sampling experiments on the International Space Station (ISS), which is an outstanding use of the vehicle for this type of analysis. The team is also working on some unique defect testing with the Dragon cargo mission to recover and study the Dragon after it returns to help reduce modeling uncertainties on MMOD damage. In other words, defects are being deliberately placed on Dragon to try to simulate some of the MMOD scenarios.

Why do I get the feeling that this test has come about due to an disagreement between NASA and SpaceX on just how robust their heat shield is to MMOD damage?  Like, SpaceX's modeling and analysis shows that they believe the Dragon capsule can still survive reentry with X amount of MMOD damage having been done to the heat shield and NASA's (likely more conservative) modeling/analysis says Y.  So, since SpaceX are working hard to meet the LOC/LOM numbers requirements for Commercial Crew, they've said, "Look, we'll prove it to you with the cargo Dragon."
My take is that NASA is bringing about similar testing that done during post STS-107 RTF flights on Shuttle.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ChrisGebhardt on 11/28/2017 07:05 PM
Launch date is now [NET] 8 December...

What the (approximate?) launch time/window, day-by-day, going forward from December 8?  (I remember that the launch time shifts several minutes earlier per day, but I do not remember the amount.)

(The December 4 launch time was 19:53 UTC--I believe it was in the middle of a 5-minute window.)

My memory is a little fuzzy, but I think the launch window gets earlier by 23 minutes for every day of delay. So four days of delay could be a window that is 92 minutes earlier, and the windows for Dragons are instantaneous.

Launch time on 8 Dec is 13:20 EST (18:20 UTC).
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mickeyjaw on 11/28/2017 08:54 PM
 :'(

I booked flights from the UK to Orlando to watch this and I fly back on the 6th...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: whitelancer64 on 11/28/2017 08:57 PM
:'(

I booked flights from the UK to Orlando to watch this and I fly back on the 6th...

Any possibility of rescheduling the flight?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mickeyjaw on 11/28/2017 09:16 PM
:'(

I booked flights from the UK to Orlando to watch this and I fly back on the 6th...

Any possibility of rescheduling the flight?

Non-refundable and non-changeable unfortunately but I might ditch the return and buy a new one-way ticket home.  I just need to convince my boss to let me take one day more holiday than I have left for the year though...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: russianhalo117 on 11/29/2017 04:01 PM
MISSE-FF wasn't ready in time.
AFAIU, MISSE-FF MISSE Sample Carrier (MSC's) arrival and integration into MISSE-FF is reason.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: deruch on 11/29/2017 05:56 PM
MISSE-FF wasn't ready in time.
AFAIU, MISSE-FF MISSE Sample Carrier (MSC's) arrival and integration into MISSE-FF is reason.

Does that mean they won't launch the Facility?  :(
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 11/30/2017 12:05 AM
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Elthiryel on 11/30/2017 11:44 AM
The source above gives the total payload mass of 2930 kg, while the NASA post (https://blogs.nasa.gov/spacex/2017/11/22/dragon-to-make-resupply-run-to-international-space-station/) states it's about 2180 kg (about 4800 pounds). So there is an inconsistency here.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Jarnis on 11/30/2017 11:55 AM
:'(

I booked flights from the UK to Orlando to watch this and I fly back on the 6th...

Any possibility of rescheduling the flight?

Non-refundable and non-changeable unfortunately but I might ditch the return and buy a new one-way ticket home.  I just need to convince my boss to let me take one day more holiday than I have left for the year though...

This being first flight from rebuilt SLC-40, 8th is... possible but not certain. Lets hope static fire works perfectly on Saturday, then 8th becomes far more likely from hardware/pad standpoint. Then it is up to Florida weather, any wayward boats or planes and so on...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: cscott on 11/30/2017 01:40 PM
The source above gives the total payload mass of 2930 kg, while the NASA post (https://blogs.nasa.gov/spacex/2017/11/22/dragon-to-make-resupply-run-to-international-space-station/) states it's about 2180 kg (about 4800 pounds). So there is an inconsistency here.
The "source above" lists MISSE-FF as an unpressurized payload, where the post just above that states that it won't be flying on this mission:

MISSE-FF wasn't ready in time.
AFAIU, MISSE-FF MISSE Sample Carrier (MSC's) arrival and integration into MISSE-FF is reason.


 So that could explain the discrepancy.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: whitelancer64 on 11/30/2017 02:01 PM
The source above gives the total payload mass of 2930 kg, while the NASA post (https://blogs.nasa.gov/spacex/2017/11/22/dragon-to-make-resupply-run-to-international-space-station/) states it's about 2180 kg (about 4800 pounds). So there is an inconsistency here.

The discrepancy is probably from including / not including the mass of packing materials, mounting brackets, payload bags, etc. plus the use of the word "about" in the blog post indicates the number is rounded.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ChrisGebhardt on 11/30/2017 03:57 PM
:'(

I booked flights from the UK to Orlando to watch this and I fly back on the 6th...

Any possibility of rescheduling the flight?

Non-refundable and non-changeable unfortunately but I might ditch the return and buy a new one-way ticket home.  I just need to convince my boss to let me take one day more holiday than I have left for the year though...

This being first flight from rebuilt SLC-40, 8th is... possible but not certain. Lets hope static fire works perfectly on Saturday, then 8th becomes far more likely from hardware/pad standpoint. [b[Then it is up to Florida weather[/b], any wayward boats or planes and so on...

Florida weather this time of year is extreme stable unless a cold front moves through.  Right now, the long range forecasts (9 days out) show absolutely nothing from the weather side to be even remotely worried about on the 8th or the two surrounding days.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: wannamoonbase on 11/30/2017 05:25 PM
This being first flight from rebuilt SLC-40, 8th is... possible but not certain. Lets hope static fire works perfectly on Saturday, then 8th becomes far more likely from hardware/pad standpoint. Then it is up to Florida weather, any wayward boats or planes and so on...

It would be very impressive if they got to a successful static fire on the first roll out. 

From past flows it would seem they could try Saturday, Sunday and finally go to Monday with a static fire and still make the 8th.

The fairing problems have been a downer, but re-activating 40 is very exciting. 

It should make 2018 a very interesting year.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: envy887 on 12/01/2017 06:13 PM
Also there is a claim the F9 will "look" a bit different than you'd expect. Nothing dramatic, more amusing (and practicable), but I want to "see" it before blurting anything else in public. I'll see if SpaceX want to confirm/comment on it before we see the booster rollout.

Did they decide not to wash the booster this time? Saving some money right there.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Hauerg on 12/01/2017 06:40 PM
Has to be.
Theother option woud be a differnt paintjob. But why?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: abaddon on 12/01/2017 07:11 PM
Well, Block 5 is supposed to look a little different, so that was what I was thinking.  But I think @envy887's guess is likely better, based on what was written.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Exastro on 12/01/2017 08:06 PM
I like to imagine the booster covered in soot, with the words "WASH ME" rubbed on it in huge letters.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: russianhalo117 on 12/01/2017 08:38 PM
Also there is a claim the F9 will "look" a bit different than you'd expect. Nothing dramatic, more amusing (and practicable), but I want to "see" it before blurting anything else in public. I'll see if SpaceX want to confirm/comment on it before we see the booster rollout.

Did they decide not to wash the booster this time? Saving some money right there.
soot residue is added weight.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: vaporcobra on 12/01/2017 09:00 PM
Also there is a claim the F9 will "look" a bit different than you'd expect. Nothing dramatic, more amusing (and practicable), but I want to "see" it before blurting anything else in public. I'll see if SpaceX want to confirm/comment on it before we see the booster rollout.

Did they decide not to wash the booster this time? Saving some money right there.
soot residue is added weight.

For a first stage, the additional weight of soot is almost certainly a rounding error. Second stage is a different situation, but not the first stage.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Exastro on 12/01/2017 09:08 PM
Quote
[size=78%]For a first stage, the additional weight of soot is almost certainly a rounding error. Second stage is a different situation, but not the first stage.[/size]




For a 10-micron thick layer of 2 gm/cm^3 soot covering a 10 meter length of a 3.7 m diameter cylinder, the mass would be around 5 kg.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Exastro on 12/01/2017 09:36 PM


Quote
For a 10-micron thick layer of 2 gm/cm^3 soot covering a 10 meter length of a 3.7 m diameter cylinder, the mass would be around 5 kg.
Sorry guys, I messed up.  It's 2.5 kg, not 5 as I said.  (I put in 3.7 m as the radius rather than the diameter).
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: BradyKenniston on 12/01/2017 10:09 PM
What would be the potential outcome of a government shutdown on CRS-13 if it was pushed past the 8th for whatever reason (scrub, slip, etc...)? With it being an NASA/ISS mission and not a commercial mission I would imagine they would get a pass to launch as MAVEN did back in 2013 but can't seem to find any hard evidence other than that.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: vaporcobra on 12/01/2017 10:10 PM
For a 10-micron thick layer of 2 gm/cm^3 soot covering a 10 meter length of a 3.7 m diameter cylinder, the mass would be around 5 kg 2.5kg.

About what I would have estimated :) Multiply by a factor of 10 and it might matter significantly for extreme margin cases to GTO, but 2.5kg is utterly irrelevant, and essentially means a payload reduction of 2.5kg total, even while including the upper stage, which is where the "tyranny of the rocket equation" really kicks in. where 5kg of soot might translate to ~50kg payload reduction. Wonderful MIT lecture on the topic (with algebra-based physics, too!) is attached.

Edit: oops, was a magnitude off. exastro notes that 2.5kg of soot on S1 would translate to a payload reduction of ~250 grams, whereas 2.5kg of soot on S2 would mean a reduction of ~2.5kg of payload.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Exastro on 12/01/2017 10:13 PM
Quote
About what I would have estimated  Multiply by a factor of 10 and it might matter significantly for extreme margin cases to GTO, but 2.5kg is utterly irrelevant, and essentially means a payload reduction of 2.5kg total. For the second stage, that's where the "tyranny of the rocket equation" really kicks in, where 5kg of soot might translate to ~50kg payload reduction. Wonderful MIT lecture on the topic (with algebra-based physics, too!) is attached.


Doesn't mass added to the upper stage reduce the payload by 1:1, and mass on the lower stage by ~0.1:1?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 12/01/2017 10:50 PM
Increased skin friction from the dirt is a MUCH bigger deal than weight of dirt for most flying vehicles, but that's because most of them are subsonic airliners, where a few gallons of jet fuel per flight can add thousands of dollars per year per plane in operating costs. Supersonic flight is whole different situation.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: deruch on 12/01/2017 11:30 PM
And potentially excess heating of propellants due to reduced emissivity or increased absorption, compared to pristine paint, after SpaceX has gone to all that trouble and exploded payloads to get subcooled LOX and RP-1 to work right.  But again, like the mass penalty it would all be a matter of margin.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: lrk on 12/01/2017 11:45 PM
But the LOX tank, which really is what needs to stay cold, always ends up with relatively little soot anyway. 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Exastro on 12/02/2017 12:31 AM
Quote
And potentially excess heating of propellants due to reduced emissivity or increased absorption, compared to pristine paint


If the soot covers the tank along 10 m of its length and causes it to absorb an extra 1000 Watt/m^2 (~67% of the Solar Constant) for 5 minutes, it can heat 400 tons of propellant with a specific heat of 1.7 kJoule/(kg*Kelvin) by about 0.02 Kelvins (assuming I did this calculation right, of course).
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 12/02/2017 11:04 PM
What would be the potential outcome of a government shutdown on CRS-13 if it was pushed past the 8th for whatever reason (scrub, slip, etc...)? With it being an NASA/ISS mission and not a commercial mission I would imagine they would get a pass to launch as MAVEN did back in 2013 but can't seem to find any hard evidence other than that.

NSF experts/KSC & CCAFS employees and contractors?

I don't know if this will make a difference, but the SLC, Falcon 9, Dragon, and the SpaceX processing and launch control facilities are on (or near) the Air Force base, not at KSC.

MAVEN was still being processed at the Payload Hazardous Servicing Facility (PHSF) at KSC on October 1, 2013.  Processing for flight was suspended for 3 days (?) until a waiver was procured.  Processing of the Atlas V, on the grounds of CCAFS, apparently continued uninterrupted.

See MAVEN launch thread, starting here: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=31872.msg1104277#msg1104277
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Antares on 12/04/2017 03:06 AM
Astronauts and those directly supporting them are among the 85% of the federal government who still report for work when there is a lapse in funding.  The launch would proceed as scheduled.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Antares on 12/04/2017 03:17 AM
Remember when people said that adoption of reused boosters would be slow and that NASA would be too conservative?
CRS has much more risk tolerance than other NASA flights.

I just don't understand government that is reflexively conservative.  If they're (or their team is) not looking at an objective measure of what is done to qualify before multiple flights and done to inspect between flights (and repair if necessary), are they doing anything else besides delaying progress?  What else should be done?  If we're going to demand that government look at everything, much less do everything, why do we have airlines and cars?  Are we going to say that hypervelocity and 8-9 figure payloads warrant a different approach?  If so, by what criteria do we retire those constraints?  Because if we don't, we're never getting off of this rock.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: jpo234 on 12/04/2017 10:09 AM
I just don't understand government that is reflexively conservative.

It's the limited upside. If the mission succeeds, no one really cares. After all, it has been done many times before. But: If you try something new and it fails, you are in trouble. Everybody will scream about the waste of taxpayer money.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: abaddon on 12/05/2017 01:26 PM
Rollout of the CRS-13 booster. She's the CRS-11 booster and......now for the note I made earlier about appearance. She still has the soot from that landing. They've 'drawn' pinstripes in the soot. Asked SpaceX, comms people weren't sure, but the info was mentioned again by a local observation. Can't wait for photos!

So now we know!

I like to imagine the booster covered in soot, with the words "WASH ME" rubbed on it in huge letters.

Not a bad guess :D.

Really curious to see what this rocket looks like now.  And why the pinstripes?  Hopefully not because they are Yankee fans, that would be very sad.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: eeergo on 12/05/2017 01:34 PM
Really curious to see what this rocket looks like now.  And why the pinstripes?  Hopefully not because they are Yankee fans, that would be very sad.

Mentioned before: tank weld inspections.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: abaddon on 12/05/2017 01:38 PM
Mentioned before: tank weld inspections.
I hadn't seen it publicly mentioned before.  Link?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: drnscr on 12/05/2017 01:42 PM
Mentioned before: tank weld inspections.
I hadn't seen it publicly mentioned before.  Link?

Look for it in previous posts. 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: eeergo on 12/05/2017 01:42 PM
Mentioned before: tank weld inspections.
I hadn't seen it publicly mentioned before.  Link?

Oops, I was referencing from memory a week-old post - which upon searching turned out to be L2 :) I hope it does not qualify as L2 leak anymore!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: intrepidpursuit on 12/05/2017 05:04 PM
If we have a slip to the 12th what is the launch window? I know CRS launches are instantaneous, but usually there is a short window until they nail down an exact time.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 12/05/2017 05:16 PM
If we have a slip to the 12th what is the launch window? I know CRS launches are instantaneous, but usually there is a short window until they nail down an exact time.

Ben Cooper's site says 11:45am
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: deruch on 12/05/2017 05:36 PM
Launch on the 12th means arrival on the 14th?  Which is when MS-05 is leaving with Ryazansky, Bresnik, and Nespoli.  Busy day on the ISS.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Wolfram66 on 12/05/2017 08:37 PM
Launch on the 12th means arrival on the 14th?  Which is when MS-05 is leaving with Ryazansky, Bresnik, and Nespoli.  Busy day on the ISS.

Or will they go with CRS-13 launching on the 13th?... too much tempting fate?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: intrepidpursuit on 12/05/2017 09:28 PM
Launch on the 12th means arrival on the 14th?  Which is when MS-05 is leaving with Ryazansky, Bresnik, and Nespoli.  Busy day on the ISS.

Or will they go with CRS-13 launching on the 13th?... too much tempting fate?

It is a good thing that's not a friday.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 12/06/2017 03:26 AM
Launch on the 12th means arrival on the 14th?  Which is when MS-05 is leaving with Ryazansky, Bresnik, and Nespoli.  Busy day on the ISS.

Or will they go with CRS-13 launching on the 13th?... too much tempting fate?

It will be the 13th here in Australia. :-)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: deruch on 12/06/2017 07:10 PM
Launch on the 12th means arrival on the 14th?  Which is when MS-05 is leaving with Ryazansky, Bresnik, and Nespoli.  Busy day on the ISS.


Looks like there's been a change to the usual 2 day rendezvous, as Dragon is now scheduled to arrive at ISS on the 15th.  I assume this is to avoid having too much happening in the area at once.  Or, it reflects an as yet unannounced delay of the launch to the 13th (less likely, IMO). 

https://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/schedule.html
Quote
4:30 a.m., Friday, December 15 - Coverage of the Rendezvous and Capture of the SpaceX/Dragon CRS-13 Cargo Craft at the ISS (Capture scheduled for approximately 6 a.m. ET) (all channels)
7:30 a.m., Friday, December 15 - Coverage of the Installation of the SpaceX/Dragon CRS-13 Cargo Craft to the ISS (all channels)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: docmordrid on 12/06/2017 07:18 PM


Quote
@cbs_spacenews
F9/CRS13: Falcon 9 hot-fire test complete at 3pm; appeared to run normal duration; no obvious issues; will stand by for an update from SpaceX

https://twitter.com/cbs_spacenews/status/938498649356754944
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: wannamoonbase on 12/06/2017 07:21 PM
Color me impressed.

Very impressive how smooth the re-activation of 40 has gone to date.  I expected multiple attempts with little bits here and there to address.

Great job SpaceX
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: catdlr on 12/07/2017 03:47 AM
Seeing the Sun in 1,000 different colors with NASA’s TSIS-1

NASA Goddard
Published on Dec 6, 2017

The composition of that light that falls on Earth matters to understanding Earth's energy budget. In December 2017, NASA is launching a new instrument called the Total Solar and Spectral Irradiance Sensor (TSIS-1) designed to study this question. NASA’s TSIS-1 will measure the Sun’s energy in 1,000 different wavelengths, including the visible, ultraviolet, and infrared, known as solar spectral irradiance. Find out more in this short narrated video.

This video is public domain and along with other supporting visualizations can be downloaded from the Scientific Visualization Studio at: http://svs.gsfc.nasa.gov/12752

Credit: NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center/Michael Starobin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rykLDfa1e7A?t=001

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rykLDfa1e7A
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: RocketDane on 12/07/2017 10:38 AM
What will we be able to see from Europe (weather permitting)? Even though Dragon deploy is done both Dragon and S2 should be orbiting close behind the ISS and be possible to see?

CRS-13 launches 16:46:00Z and ISS will be visible here in Denmark 17:56:39Z - 17:58:47Z It is certainly dark enough at that time and the long-term weather forecast is sort of encouraging (-ish).

I really want to watch the launch stream with the kids and then go outside and see the real thing in the sky soon after.

j.

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: jimvela on 12/07/2017 09:45 PM
I stopped by Fishlips this afternoon for an early dinner and to take a peek at the ASDS.

There was activity on Go Quest and Go Searcher, that at least to my untrained eye looked like they were making preparations to get under way.

Hopefully, that's a good sign!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: rliebman on 12/07/2017 09:50 PM
maybe i missed a post here, but i thought CRS-13 was suppose to return to LZ-1? and not to the drone ship in the Atlantic.  please correct my understanding

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: jimvela on 12/07/2017 09:54 PM
maybe i missed a post here, but i thought CRS-13 was suppose to return to LZ-1? and not to the drone ship in the Atlantic.  please correct my understanding



Duh, no, your're absolutely right. 
What was I thinking?


Maybe they were heading out for a beer :-)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: rsdavis9 on 12/07/2017 10:03 PM
Or headed out for a fairing...

EDIT: Doh, I should have known that dragon doesn't have a fairing.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: cppetrie on 12/07/2017 10:10 PM
Not one of those on a Dragon flight either.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: jimvela on 12/07/2017 10:10 PM
I thought the next launch with a fairing was pushed out to NET 5 January?

Maybe just working on the twins, entropy loves ocean going vessels...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: nacnud on 12/07/2017 11:11 PM
What will we be able to see from Europe (weather permitting)? Even though Dragon deploy is done both Dragon and S2 should be orbiting close behind the ISS and be possible to see?

CRS-13 launches 16:46:00Z and ISS will be visible here in Denmark 17:56:39Z - 17:58:47Z It is certainly dark enough at that time and the long-term weather forecast is sort of encouraging (-ish).

I really want to watch the launch stream with the kids and then go outside and see the real thing in the sky soon after.

j.



I saw a Dragon pass overhead from Towcester, England (52.13° N). It was shortly after sunset and the ISS passed directly overhead, followed a few minutes later by the dragon, the solar panel fairings and the second stage. They made a cross in the sky. To work out what you might seen you need to know the ground track of the ISS and the lighting conditions. You need the ISS to be passing overhead and for the sun to have recently set (or just about to rise) to get the best viewing as this means the sky is dark but the dragon et al are still illuminated. Having no clouds is nice too.

I was very very lucky as it wasn't planned at all, it just popped outside on the off-chance.

Edit: I saw Dragon on the first orbit, it sounds like it's passing over you on the second orbit, you should be able to see Dragon but I don't know about the fairings and second stage, I would have thought they would have fallen back by then.

Edit2: Watch out for Cygnus too, it should be in  the vicinity. It's moved to a higher orbit so would pass by after ISS and Dragon I guess. I just tried to find a good tool to plot the ground tracks of ISS etc but couldn't find one.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: RocketDane on 12/07/2017 11:28 PM
Thank you for the reply. Since you saw it from the UK I suppose that the timing this time will be the same or even better here in Denmark, i.e. the distance will not be longer between the ISS and Dragon chasing it. That is great news.

Our family watched the Atlantis undocked from the ISS and waiting to de-orbit on its final flight. That was great. We have young children again who need to see something like that. Unfortunately, unlike that time the ISS will not be passing directly overhead on the 12th - it will have a max altitude of 12 degrees - but still an experience to remember.

j.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: c on 12/08/2017 03:58 PM
Apologies if this was covered up-thread...

RE: LC-39 gantry viewing

Me and the boy were super excited to see that SpaceX had moved CRS-13 back over to pad 40.

"Ah," we thought. "We'll buy our LC-39 gantry tickets and score a nice meal, the launch t-shirt, and the best SpaceX launch viewing on the planet." (3.4 miles)

Unfortunately we could not find any mention of LC-39 gantry tickets on-sale.  I called KSC's launch ticket sales and was told by a very pleasant Sarah that due to all the CRS-13 delays they were not going to risk a scrub and the logistical nightmare that causes.  And even tho I told Sarah I lived close enough that a scrub was "no problemo" for me, no amount of whining or bribe offers would open those magical gantry doors to me.

So, no gantry viewing for this launch but with pad 40 open things look good for the future!

c

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 12/09/2017 11:51 AM
From the launch forecast issued yesterday:

Quote
Maximum upper-level winds will be from the west at 105 knots at 40,000 feet.
On Wednesday, skies will begin to clear [...]. Maximum upper-level winds will be from the west at 130 knots near 40,000 feet.

I know wind shear is a particular concern but is there also an upper limit on wind speed F9 can tolerate? Upper level winds caused a scrub of the last ULA launch.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: CyndyC on 12/10/2017 12:23 AM
From the launch forecast issued yesterday:

Quote
Maximum upper-level winds will be from the west at 105 knots at 40,000 feet.
On Wednesday, skies will begin to clear [...]. Maximum upper-level winds will be from the west at 130 knots near 40,000 feet.

I know wind shear is a particular concern but is there also an upper limit on wind speed F9 can tolerate?

Yes, there is.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Jirka Dlouhy on 12/10/2017 02:18 PM
Are this micro and nanosatellites onboard of CRS-13 ?

Violet      50   USA      Cornell University
QBUS 3      2   USA      Stanford University
LAICE      12   USA      University Of Illinois
HARP      3   USA      University Of Maryland
OPAL      3   USA      Space Dynamic Laboratory
OPEN      1   USA      University Of North Dakota
CPOD 1      3   USA      Tyvak Nanosatellite Center
CPOD 2      3   USA      Tyvak Nanosatellite Center
RANGE A      2   USA      Georgia Institute Of Technology
RANGE B      2   USA      Georgia Institute Of Technology
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: CyndyC on 12/10/2017 08:33 PM
Are this micro and nanosatellites onboard of CRS-13 ?

Violet      50   USA      Cornell University
QBUS 3      2   USA      Stanford University
LAICE      12   USA      University Of Illinois
HARP      3   USA      University Of Maryland
OPAL      3   USA      Space Dynamic Laboratory
OPEN      1   USA      University Of North Dakota
CPOD 1      3   USA      Tyvak Nanosatellite Center
CPOD 2      3   USA      Tyvak Nanosatellite Center
RANGE A      2   USA      Georgia Institute Of Technology
RANGE B      2   USA      Georgia Institute Of Technology

No cube-, micro-, or nanosats have been mentioned in the cargo descriptions
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Skyrocket on 12/10/2017 08:36 PM
Are this micro and nanosatellites onboard of CRS-13 ?

Violet      50   USA      Cornell University
QBUS 3      2   USA      Stanford University
LAICE      12   USA      University Of Illinois
HARP      3   USA      University Of Maryland
OPAL      3   USA      Space Dynamic Laboratory
OPEN      1   USA      University Of North Dakota
CPOD 1      3   USA      Tyvak Nanosatellite Center
CPOD 2      3   USA      Tyvak Nanosatellite Center
RANGE A      2   USA      Georgia Institute Of Technology
RANGE B      2   USA      Georgia Institute Of Technology

Just as a remark: Violet has been cancelled and won't fly.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Semmel on 12/10/2017 09:38 PM
Would it be possible to put the NET launch time into the first post of the update thread?  Currently, it only reads the launch date but no info on the time. Thank you!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: speedevil on 12/10/2017 10:39 PM
Just as a remark: Violet has been cancelled and won't fly.
A quick google of the above satellites reveals that none of them seem to have a convincing launch date or platform mentioned prominently anywhere. Twitter the same.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: king1999 on 12/11/2017 01:54 PM
Any good picture for the Sooty?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 12/11/2017 03:13 PM
I really would have thought that NASA would make a bigger deal about a reusable spacecraft flying on a reusable booster. I mean, what is the proportion by volume Falcon-9/Dragon system reuse now - 70% at least?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 12/11/2017 03:31 PM
Sorry, I'm not familiar with the terminology, what does the following mean in the context of being able to launch or not:

Upper levels winds are constraint base.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 12/11/2017 03:51 PM
Sorry, I'm not familiar with the terminology, what does the following mean in the context of being able to launch or not:

Upper levels winds are constraint base.

It means if there's a weather-related launch constraint, it will be due to upper level winds. So far as I know, SpaceX has never publicly discussed what the limit is for upper level winds (wind velocity, direction, flight level ...) But as noted multiple times over the years, F9 is fairly long-and-skinny as rockets go. That tends to potentially worsen the effects of wind shear induced bending loads as compared to a shorter-but-wider booster body.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: whitelancer64 on 12/11/2017 04:04 PM
From Updates thread:

Working with NASA since Jan.  Equivalent risk established.  All groups meeting for several months.

2 weeks before launch was when the decision had to be made.

NASA went off on their own to come up with what they wanted to see for Falcon 9 reuse.  NASA put on constraints.  Only single reflight agreed to. Only a CRS-like mission is where that booster could come from.  Decision was made so finely.   Re-flgiht Readiness Review (RFRR).

NASA was so late making decision because RFRR came in so only allow official decision.

New booster could have effected the launch date.

If they can only reuse "CRS-like" boosters (presuming that means lightweight LEO mission, low reentry stresses on booster, probably LZ-1 only landings) with a single prior flight for CRS missions, then they don't have too many choices.

*edit*
CRS-10 was reused as well.
*/edit*
CRS-8 was already reused, and CRS-9's core is spoken for. They are using the CRS-11 booster. The boosters for CRS-10 and CRS-12 are is available, as far as I know, and presumably the booster for the NROL-76 mission, and possibly the X-37B mission as well.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ChrisGebhardt on 12/11/2017 04:15 PM
From Updates thread:

Working with NASA since Jan.  Equivalent risk established.  All groups meeting for several months.

2 weeks before launch was when the decision had to be made.

NASA went off on their own to come up with what they wanted to see for Falcon 9 reuse.  NASA put on constraints.  Only single reflight agreed to. Only a CRS-like mission is where that booster could come from.  Decision was made so finely.   Re-flgiht Readiness Review (RFRR).

NASA was so late making decision because RFRR came in so only allow official decision.

New booster could have effected the launch date.

If they can only reuse "CRS-like" boosters (presuming that means lightweight LEO mission, low reentry stresses on booster, probably LZ-1 only landings) with a single prior flight for CRS missions, then they don't have too many choices.

CRS-8 was already reused, and CRS-9's core is spoken for. They are using the CRS-11 booster. The boosters for CRS-10 and 12 are available, as far as I know, and presumably the booster for the NROL-76 mission, and possibly the X-37B mission as well.

CRS-10's booster was reused on SES-11/Echostar-105
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: input~2 on 12/11/2017 04:33 PM
WESTERN NORTH ATLANTIC.
FLORIDA.
1. HAZARDOUS OPERATIONS 121638Z TO 12740Z DEC,
ALTERNATE 131616Z TO 131718Z DEC
IN AREA BOUND BY
28-27N 080-38W, 28-38N 080-38W,
31-09N 078-05W, 31-53N 077-06W,
32-08N 076-36W, 31-43N 076-51W,
31-23N 077-11W, 30-59N 077-45W,
28-25N 080-26W.
2. CANCEL THIS MSG 131818Z DEC 17.//

Authority: EASTERN RANGE 081421Z DEC 17.

Date: 081514Z DEC 17
Cancel: 13181800 Dec 17

INDIAN OCEAN.
1. HAZARDOUS OPERATIONS, ROCKET RE-ENTRY
121719Z TO 121843Z DEC,
ALTERNATE 131657Z TO 131821Z DEC
IN AREA BOUND BY
51-06S 157-04E, 47-02S 129-57E,
40-17S 110-10E, 16-53S 080-01E,
19-34S 076-39E, 30-51S 085-09E,
47-09S 110-10E, 52-16S 130-11E,
53-54S 156-29E.
2. CANCEL THIS MSG 131921Z DEC 17.//

Authority: EASTERN RANGE 081421Z DEC 17.

Date: 081528Z DEC 17
Cancel: 13192100 Dec 17

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 12/11/2017 05:24 PM
Chris G has very helpful explained the wind situation (in a series of tweets).

I’ll post here for reference (and hopefully save Chris a job!):

Quote
So... #SpaceX launch weather discussion time.  Ground winds are the ONLY thing including in the 90% go prediction for tomorrow.  BUT... upper levels winds need to be watched too - though they're not including in the official weather prediction.  @NASASpaceflight 1/x
https://twitter.com/chrisg_nsf/status/940274653666398208

Quote
They're not included because the 45th weather squadron is not responsible for making a call on Upper Level wind acceptability for launch.  That decision falls to SpaceX.  @NASASpaceflight 2/x

Quote
So tomorrow, the 45th will monitor & report Upper Level Wind (ULW) speed and direction to SpaceX.  SpaceX will then make the call on whether the ULWs are within acceptable limits for launch to proceed. @NASASpaceflight 3/3

Quote
Interesting... Why would SpaceX not release ULW limits to the 45th?
https://twitter.com/therobdale/status/940276586846216192

Quote
It's a moving target constraint depending on launch trajectory, payload, weight, vehicle performance, altitude of winds, direction of winds, speed of winds. Easier for 45th to just report what Upper Level Winds are to SpaceX & let them figure out if the winds are within limits.
https://twitter.com/chrisg_nsf/status/940278038679474180

Quote
Is it known or proprietary what upper level wind speeds would be a no-go call? educated guess? 100+knots?
https://twitter.com/inoeth666/status/940276399457398785

Quote
SpaceX has never stated publicly what the Upper Level Wind speed/direction limits are for Falcon 9.  And the wind speed limit is different based on direction of wind.
https://twitter.com/chrisg_nsf/status/940276974014160897

Thanks Chris, very enlightening.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: macpacheco on 12/11/2017 05:47 PM
As far as the upper wind thing, its most likely not an absolute number, but rather the GRADIENT that's the problem.
F9 has a lateral acceleration limit. Turbulence and wind shear causes this.
If the wind smoothly accelerates from 0 to 200knots (over 40000ft), there would likely be no problem for F9.
In the real world it doesn't work like that. There are sudden changes in wind.
Its a bit complicated to translate into a simple upper wind speed limit number.
And I wouldn't be surprised if SpaceX is fudging what they expect will be the ultimate safety limit vs a more conservative number they keep slowly stretching.
SpaceX knows what its doing. Let them do it.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mn on 12/11/2017 06:45 PM
As far as the upper wind thing, its most likely not an absolute number, but rather the GRADIENT that's the problem.
F9 has a lateral acceleration limit. Turbulence and wind shear causes this.
If the wind smoothly accelerates from 0 to 200knots (over 40000ft), there would likely be no problem for F9.
In the real world it doesn't work like that. There are sudden changes in wind.
Its a bit complicated to translate into a simple upper wind speed limit number.
And I wouldn't be surprised if SpaceX is fudging what they expect will be the ultimate safety limit vs a more conservative number they keep slowly stretching.
SpaceX knows what its doing. Let them do it.

AIUI there is wind shear and just plain wind, they both have [different] limits (and certainly those limits are not fixed numbers, but rather depend on lots of details).
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: CyndyC on 12/11/2017 07:17 PM
AIUI there is wind shear and just plain wind, they both have [different] limits (and certainly those limits are not fixed numbers, but rather depend on lots of details).

Below is an example from https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/704770247769722880, the wind patterns that postponed SES-9 for a few days last year, the upper level specifically. The highest speed was 70 m/s = 136 knots at 32,808 ft.


Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 12/11/2017 07:30 PM
Seeing sooty is pretty cool but i wondered is the interstage cleaned or is it taken off then a new one put on? (im new btw)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: StarTracker on 12/11/2017 07:38 PM
And is it just me, or does the USA flag on the interstage look dirty? (Which makes no sense, given the otherwise clean interstage...)

Edit: Compare to the picture of the F9 that launched OTV-5
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43585.msg1720217#msg1720217 (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43585.msg1720217#msg1720217)

(Welcome BTW)

Seeing sooty is pretty cool but i wondered is the interstage cleaned or is it taken off then a new one put on? (im new btw)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Wolfram66 on 12/11/2017 07:39 PM
AIUI there is wind shear and just plain wind, they both have [different] limits (and certainly those limits are not fixed numbers, but rather depend on lots of details).

Below is an example from https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/704770247769722880, the wind patterns that postponed SES-9 for a few days last year, the upper level specifically. The highest speed was 70 m/s = 136 knots at 32,808 ft.

here's a link to Storm Prediction Center [Norman OK] that shows all the balloon sounding data http://www.spc.noaa.gov/exper/soundings/ (http://www.spc.noaa.gov/exper/soundings/)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: CyndyC on 12/11/2017 07:55 PM
Aha, came across "Falcon 9 Launch Weather Criteria" directly from NASA at https://www.nasa.gov/pdf/649911main_051612_falcon9_weather_criteria.pdf. Ground level wind criteria is more specific:

Quote
Do not launch if the sustained wind at the 162-foot level of the launch pad exceeds 30 knots. Do not launch through upper-level conditions containing wind shear that could lead to control problems for the launch vehicle.

Also, recall the tweet below from https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/859008563519160320 after the NROL launch April 30th, when the upper level wind forecast was only 60 knots, but that was at 45,000 feet. A bit lower could have been higher as in the wind graph I just posted for SES-9 (forecast from https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42639.msg1672306#msg1672306 and pdf attached below):

Quote
Launch and landing of the NRO spy satellite was good. Tough call, as high altitude wind shear was at 98.6% of the theoretical load limit.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 12/11/2017 07:58 PM
Yeah OTV-5s def looks more clean....                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                                           
And is it just me, or does the USA flag on the interstage look dirty? (Which makes no sense, given the otherwise clean interstage...)

Edit: Compare to the picture of the F9 that launched OTV-5
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43585.msg1720217#msg1720217 (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43585.msg1720217#msg1720217)

(Welcome BTW)

Seeing sooty is pretty cool but i wondered is the interstage cleaned or is it taken off then a new one put on? (im new btw)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: jcm on 12/12/2017 02:36 AM
For those wondering, as I was, here's the payload weight breakdown for CRS-13:

1,080.3 lbs (490 kg) - Crew Supplies
1,567.5 lbs (711 kg) - Science Investigations
363.8 lbs (165 kg)    - EVA Equipment
416.7 lbs (189 kg)    - Vehicle Hardware
11 lbs (5 kg)            - Computer Resources

Total Pressurized Payload (w/ packing): 3,439.2 lbs (1,560 kg)
Total Unpressurized Payload (Trunk): 1,422 lbs (645 kg)
Total payload weight: 4,861.2 lbs (2,205 kg)

But Nov 2017 NAC Scimemi report says 1080 kg trunk upmass - wonder what changed?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: lrk on 12/12/2017 02:56 AM
And is it just me, or does the USA flag on the interstage look dirty? (Which makes no sense, given the otherwise clean interstage...)

Edit: Compare to the picture of the F9 that launched OTV-5
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43585.msg1720217#msg1720217 (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43585.msg1720217#msg1720217)

(Welcome BTW)

Seeing sooty is pretty cool but i wondered is the interstage cleaned or is it taken off then a new one put on? (im new btw)

Maybe the dirty flag is an indication that the same interstage is present? 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: deruch on 12/12/2017 03:05 AM
For those wondering, as I was, here's the payload weight breakdown for CRS-13:

1,080.3 lbs (490 kg) - Crew Supplies
1,567.5 lbs (711 kg) - Science Investigations
363.8 lbs (165 kg)    - EVA Equipment
416.7 lbs (189 kg)    - Vehicle Hardware
11 lbs (5 kg)            - Computer Resources

Total Pressurized Payload (w/ packing): 3,439.2 lbs (1,560 kg)
Total Unpressurized Payload (Trunk): 1,422 lbs (645 kg)
Total payload weight: 4,861.2 lbs (2,205 kg)

But Nov 2017 NAC Scimemi report says 1080 kg trunk upmass - wonder what changed?
MISSE-FF wasn't ready in time for flight and so isn't on the manifest any more.  There were also some pressurized cargo mass changes as well, IIRC.  It's possible that this is also related to the MISSE-FF delay as a number of their sample carrier trays were planned to go up as internal cargo.  Not all of the slots could be filled during launch due to geometries of trunk space with the other payloads and maintaining access for Dextre during extraction.  So, I don't know whether any of the internal mass changes are due to MISSE trays waiting for the external hardware to launch as well or whether there were other changes.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: catdlr on 12/12/2017 03:29 AM
Space Debris Sensor


NASA Johnson
Published on Dec 11, 2017

Orbital debris poses a risk to all spacecraft in Earth orbit, so the International Space Station is getting a new debris impact sensor to provide information on the micrometeoroid orbital debris environment in low Earth orbit.  The Space Debris Sensor, launching on the next SpaceX Dragon cargo vehicle, will monitor impacts caused by small-scale orbital debris for a period of two to three years.  That data will improve station safety by generating a more accurate estimate of the amount of small-scale debris that cannot be tracked from the ground and helping define better spacecraft shielding requirements.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7YcSre8O-A?=001

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7YcSre8O-A
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: M.E.T. on 12/12/2017 06:17 AM
What's up with all the quality issues/delays SpaceX are experiencing towards the end of what has been a bumper year to date?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: pb2000 on 12/12/2017 06:36 AM
What's up with all the quality issues/delays SpaceX are experiencing towards the end of what has been a bumper year to date?
LC-40 is essentially a brand new pad, and 39A has been undergoing a large amount of mods for FH (which now has the pad offline) all whilst serving as the primary east coast pad. The only unexpected problem has been the fairing, which seems to have either been an easy fix or a non issue as per the CRS-13 briefing.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Wolfram66 on 12/12/2017 01:54 PM
Not to mention that upper level winds are wicked right now.

http://www.spc.noaa.gov/exper/soundings/17121212_OBS/ (http://www.spc.noaa.gov/exper/soundings/17121212_OBS/)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: RotoSequence on 12/12/2017 02:10 PM
The only unexpected problem has been the fairing, which seems to have either been an easy fix or a non issue as per the CRS-13 briefing.

That's probably because the CRS missions don't have a payload fairing.  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 12/12/2017 02:19 PM
The only unexpected problem has been the fairing, which seems to have either been an easy fix or a non issue as per the CRS-13 briefing.

That's probably because the CRS missions don't have a payload fairing.  ;)

The CRS-13 briefing included a question about the fairing status for the Iridium flight.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ChrisGebhardt on 12/12/2017 03:20 PM
The only unexpected problem has been the fairing, which seems to have either been an easy fix or a non issue as per the CRS-13 briefing.

That's probably because the CRS missions don't have a payload fairing.  ;)

The CRS-13 briefing included a question about the fairing status for the Iridium flight.

Which was never affected by the payload fairing issue according to Iridium (https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/11/iridium-next-4-december-launch-vandenberg/). 

The bigger take away was Jessica confirming Zuma in early January -- which is the confirmation that the PF issue has been resolved.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: dnavas on 12/12/2017 05:22 PM
To add to this, yes.  Multiple sources here, too, saying we're slipping to Thursday or Friday now.

This is obviously not official until NASA or SpaceX say anything.

I thought the backup backup plan was the 15th?  Is the 14th even available?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ChrisGebhardt on 12/12/2017 07:09 PM
To add to this, yes.  Multiple sources here, too, saying we're slipping to Thursday or Friday now.

This is obviously not official until NASA or SpaceX say anything.

I thought the backup backup plan was the 15th?  Is the 14th even available?


They didn't say why the 14th wasn't a current option yesterday. Most read that as the 14th being the day to stand down and swap out late-stow items that had time constraints from loading to launch.  The slip to Thursday or Friday is likely trying to see if Thursday is doable from a payload, rocket, pad, Station perspective to preserve as many attempts as possible before the hard cutoff on the 15th for the Solar Beta Angle.

It's still possible that Thursday won't be OK, and Friday will be our one shot to launch CRS-13 before standing down for the Beta cutout until ~25 Dec.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Bubbinski on 12/12/2017 07:17 PM
How are the upper level winds tomorrow, Thursday, and Friday?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: jimvela on 12/12/2017 07:38 PM
I am hearing that The next launch attempt is now NET Friday, 15 December with a launch window at 10:36 EST.

Stated reason was that SpaceX needs a couple of day to turn around those late load items in the Dragon..
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Wolfram66 on 12/12/2017 08:11 PM
I am hearing that The next launch attempt is now NET Friday, 15 December with a launch window at 10:36 EST.

Stated reason was that SpaceX needs a couple of day to turn around those late load items in the Dragon..

Probably adding a scale model of a Red Model S Tesla Roadster for ISS inflight testing... LOL  ::)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: vaporcobra on 12/12/2017 08:13 PM
I am hearing that The next launch attempt is now NET Friday, 15 December with a launch window at 10:36 EST.

Stated reason was that SpaceX needs a couple of day to turn around those late load items in the Dragon..

Ah, does that mean that the late-load vehicles seen earlier this morning were there for offloading?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Norm38 on 12/12/2017 09:13 PM
How can a launch that was originally scheduled for the 4th be delayed on the 12th for late load items?

If your flight is 8 days late and you still miss the plane, take the next one.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 12/12/2017 09:25 PM
How can a launch that was originally scheduled for the 4th be delayed on the 12th for late load items?

If your flight is 8 days late and you still miss the plane, take the next one.
The basic reasons for the initial delay to this week were not the late-load items. However, once the mission slips, one of the consideration are the late-load items. Typically these are time-sensitive items like experimental animals or plants. Experiments are controlled by controlling the age of biological items at launch so that observations made or tests undertaken on these items can be correlated to similar or analogous samples launched on prior and subsequent missions.

In addition, other time-sensitive items might include batteries with charge that might decay too much; temperature-controlled items that will get out of their temperature ranges; etc.

Therefore, for a slip, one main consideration is ensuring that the new window/opportunity allows for time-sensitive items to be available during the new window. Animals and plants might be too young, batteries might need to have had time for a discharge/recharge cyle, and so forth.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 12/12/2017 09:31 PM
i feel guilty whenever i get into this type of thought but i hope it gets scrubbed to christmas because me and family are heading up to orlando and would hope to catch the launch and landing ( would be first time seeing a landing in person)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mme on 12/13/2017 12:15 AM
And it's official. NET Friday, last available window until late December.

Quote
Taking additional time for the team to conduct full inspections and cleanings due to detection of particles in 2nd stage fuel system. Now targeting CRS-13 launch from SLC-40 on Dec. 15. Next launch opportunity would be no earlier than late December.

https://twitter.com/SpaceX/status/940736321097572352
Two questions. First, how would they have discovered this? Second, how the heck could it happen?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: cscott on 12/13/2017 12:17 AM
Elaborating on late-load. Made-up example, but illustrative: Consider an experiment that should be done on an 8-day-old mouse in orbit.  Working backwards, the mouse must be 1 or 2 days old at launch.  The experimenters will continually breed the correct strain of mouse so that they always have newborn pups.  If they load the newborns on, but the flight doesn't launch within two days, they have to unload the cargo and load a new batch of newborn mice.  That's the essence of "late load" biologic cargo, and you can imagine the logistics can get quite complex to allow samples of the correct age to be loaded regardless of the launch date.

And then there are batteries that need to be charged and other non-biologic late loads.

I seem to recall that the standard spacing is 3 days: you'll have two possible launch days, then a day to stand down and load new cargo, which will then be good to go for launch in the next two days.  Returning to the mouse example, that means a new litter of mice every three days, "just in case," until launch.  In the case of consumables, your full charge must be good for two days (plus transit time to ISS, presumably.)

Caveat: I don't really know what I'm talking about; I'm just summarizing what I've learned here in discussions with actual experts.  Questions about late load seem to recur with some frequency.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Formica on 12/13/2017 12:40 AM
And it's official. NET Friday, last available window until late December.

Quote
Taking additional time for the team to conduct full inspections and cleanings due to detection of particles in 2nd stage fuel system. Now targeting CRS-13 launch from SLC-40 on Dec. 15. Next launch opportunity would be no earlier than late December.

https://twitter.com/SpaceX/status/940736321097572352
Two questions. First, how would they have discovered this? Second, how the heck could it happen?

Totally spitballing here, but it seems logical to me. It's brand new ground support equipment, so the idea of flashing, manufacturing dust, what-have-you coming loose when being used for the first time sounds very plausible. It is interesting that they didn't catch this before the static fire though, or perhaps they discovered it upon re-examining the results of the static fire. Again, I'm just a space fan, not a rocket scientist or GSE engineer, but this sounds like the kind of teething problems one would expect from new equipment being used/pressurized/energized for the first few times. I'm glad they are erring on the side of caution, and if that means waiting til after the high beta period, so be it  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: RocketLover0119 on 12/13/2017 12:46 AM
Is there possibility this could be a result of loose soot getting into s2?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: deruch on 12/13/2017 01:03 AM
And it's official. NET Friday, last available window until late December.

Quote
Taking additional time for the team to conduct full inspections and cleanings due to detection of particles in 2nd stage fuel system. Now targeting CRS-13 launch from SLC-40 on Dec. 15. Next launch opportunity would be no earlier than late December.

https://twitter.com/SpaceX/status/940736321097572352
Two questions. First, how would they have discovered this? Second, how the heck could it happen?
Maybe found via sampling of unloaded propellants after the static fire? 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: CyndyC on 12/13/2017 02:09 AM
Good on SpaceX for catching the debris, and every other thing they've ever caught and fixed before a launch for that matter, but I still haven't quite shaken the launch number. I hope if all the pad & TEL upgrades included any voltage increases, that those were well communicated, and that every last SpaceX component was modified to accept the higher voltage where necessary.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ChrisC on 12/13/2017 02:35 AM
SpaceX/Dragon CRS-13 Cargo Resupply Mission Prelaunch News Conference
http://www.space-multimedia.nl.eu.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=10080

SpaceX/Dragon - CRS-13 Cargo Resupply Mission "What’s on Board?" Science Briefing
http://www.space-multimedia.nl.eu.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=10081

Welcome back, John44!  I was starting to wonder.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: litton4 on 12/13/2017 02:43 PM
Good on SpaceX for catching the debris, and every other thing they've ever caught and fixed before a launch for that matter, but I still haven't quite shaken the launch number. I hope if all the pad & TEL upgrades included any voltage increases, that those were well communicated, and that every last SpaceX component was modified to accept the higher voltage where necessary.


A voltage change was one of the factors in the Apollo 13 explosion.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mn on 12/13/2017 03:38 PM
And it's official. NET Friday, last available window until late December.

Quote
Taking additional time for the team to conduct full inspections and cleanings due to detection of particles in 2nd stage fuel system. Now targeting CRS-13 launch from SLC-40 on Dec. 15. Next launch opportunity would be no earlier than late December.

https://twitter.com/SpaceX/status/940736321097572352
Two questions. First, how would they have discovered this? Second, how the heck could it happen?

I'll add a third question: How in the world do you clean that in just a few days?

(Maybe they can take it to a local Jiffy Lube for a radiator flush  ;))
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: rsdavis9 on 12/13/2017 03:49 PM
Tanka and detank with propellants and look at filters for stuff.
Seems to be the safest way to clean and detect FOD.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Mike_1179 on 12/13/2017 05:19 PM
Tanka and detank with propellants and look at filters for stuff.
Seems to be the safest way to clean and detect FOD.

You have to determine where they came from in the first place
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: the_other_Doug on 12/13/2017 05:36 PM
And it's official. NET Friday, last available window until late December.

Quote
Taking additional time for the team to conduct full inspections and cleanings due to detection of particles in 2nd stage fuel system. Now targeting CRS-13 launch from SLC-40 on Dec. 15. Next launch opportunity would be no earlier than late December.

https://twitter.com/SpaceX/status/940736321097572352
Two questions. First, how would they have discovered this? Second, how the heck could it happen?

Totally spitballing here, but it seems logical to me. It's brand new ground support equipment, so the idea of flashing, manufacturing dust, what-have-you coming loose when being used for the first time sounds very plausible. It is interesting that they didn't catch this before the static fire though, or perhaps they discovered it upon re-examining the results of the static fire. Again, I'm just a space fan, not a rocket scientist or GSE engineer, but this sounds like the kind of teething problems one would expect from new equipment being used/pressurized/energized for the first few times. I'm glad they are erring on the side of caution, and if that means waiting til after the high beta period, so be it  :)

Well -- they don't fire the second stage during the static fire, so nothing from the actual engine firing of stage 1 would show any issues with stage 2, obviously.

It seems the overall purpose of "test as you fly" worked here, though.  Fueling stage 2 and then examining the fill line and drain line filters (especially after the first few fills at the rebuilt launch complex) told them that there was debris remaining in the system.  And is giving them the heads-up needed to clean it out before it results in a stage 2 turbopump failure.  I can conceive of a number of situations where small amounts of debris might be left in the system that earlier tests at less-than-flight-load rates, pressures and durations did not reveal.

And recall, we're almost definitely not talking about a few pounds of sand and dirt collecting at the filters, likely tenths of grams at most; these systems allow for extremely little particulate contamination, if any at all.  It's always the last few tenths of a percent that take the longest and most work to remove, in any system.

It's not botched testing; it's that putting the system through its actual paces is the best and last test you need to run.  They did, found something that needs tweaking, and once that's done, they'll go fly.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mdeep on 12/13/2017 08:04 PM
What is the launch time on Friday? I've got:

10:35 (KSC PAO)
10:36 (NASA)
10:38 (45 SW)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Kabloona on 12/14/2017 03:09 PM
And it's official. NET Friday, last available window until late December.

Quote
Taking additional time for the team to conduct full inspections and cleanings due to detection of particles in 2nd stage fuel system. Now targeting CRS-13 launch from SLC-40 on Dec. 15. Next launch opportunity would be no earlier than late December.

https://twitter.com/SpaceX/status/940736321097572352
Two questions. First, how would they have discovered this? Second, how the heck could it happen?

Totally spitballing here, but it seems logical to me. It's brand new ground support equipment, so the idea of flashing, manufacturing dust, what-have-you coming loose when being used for the first time sounds very plausible.

GSE is a common source of contamination for launch vehicles/payloads. During the Mars Observer launch campaign (way back) in 1992, a payload fairing AC duct blew contamination (dust, etc) onto the Mars Observer satellite atop the rocket on the pad. The entire encapsulated payload had to be destacked, de-encapsulated, cleaned, re-encapsulated, re-stacked, etc.

IIRC, the root cause had something to do with hurried preparations for the oncoming hurricane Andrew, but my memory on that could be faulty.

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ZachS09 on 12/15/2017 12:43 PM
Just so you guys know, I'll be covering the NASA TV portion of this launch and leave the SpaceX Webcast to other members.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: jpo234 on 12/15/2017 12:45 PM
Space X Launch & Landing Control

Is that new?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ZachS09 on 12/15/2017 12:47 PM
I'm not sure. But it looks like the same location to me.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: IanThePineapple on 12/15/2017 12:51 PM
Space X Launch & Landing Control

Is that new?

It's their control facility, they just added "landing" post-ORBCOMM
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: inventodoc on 12/15/2017 02:26 PM
That fact on the webcast about the new flame trenches allowing testing of reused stages at the cape was kind of nice to hear about!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: NX-0 on 12/15/2017 02:29 PM
What's this?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Machdiamond on 12/15/2017 02:32 PM
This will be the first RTLS with clear skies.

I am expecting incredible landing footage.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 12/15/2017 02:46 PM
The simulation is still showing stage 2 to be at SLC-40.

Let me guess: The tracking transceiver is still in its shipping box in the HIF?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: JamesH65 on 12/15/2017 02:53 PM
Arrggghh, was hoping the ground tracking shot would be kept on for the whole 1st stage trip! Never mind, another good mission (so far!).
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: sivasu on 12/15/2017 03:00 PM
Arrggghh, was hoping the ground tracking shot would be kept on for the whole 1st stage trip! Never mind, another good mission (so far!).
Same here. This would've been an incredible sequence. Also, one that flat earthers would have a real hard time debunking; ]
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: karki on 12/15/2017 03:01 PM
This will be the first RTLS with clear skies.

I am expecting incredible landing footage.

This one was pretty fantastic but I still think NROL-76 had better, near-continuous footage of the first stage all the way from launch to landing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzQpkQ1etdA
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Yellowstone10 on 12/15/2017 03:09 PM
This is the first technical webcast SpaceX has done in a while, isn't it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsAIoqbUCgw
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Req on 12/15/2017 03:12 PM
The NASA TV coverage had a pretty good tracking cam on the way down, like NROL-76.

I hate to have a repeat of the "calipers" but there was most definitely a washer flying around at the end of the NASA TV replays during Dragon separation!  No way it was ice this time IMO.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lar on 12/15/2017 03:13 PM
Yes I think it is the first technical webcast in a while.... I was surprised to see it...

Also I thought it was charming that one of the presenters shared that CRS-6 was her first mission as an employee. The company is growing big time, that wasn't that long ago...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: e of pi on 12/15/2017 03:14 PM
The simulation is still showing stage 2 to be at SLC-40.

Let me guess: The tracking transceiver is still in its shipping box in the HIF?
Nah, they just forgot to grab the second stage on the way to the pad--you know how it goes when it's the morning of a big event, you forget the little things. That's why they had to fly the first stage back to go pick it up. And you just know traffic at 51.2deg inclination'll be a nightmare by the time they're back in the air...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: whitelancer64 on 12/15/2017 03:15 PM
Congrats to the SpaceX team on the smooth launch and landing. After 45 days of waiting and a No-Launch November (surprisingly, SpaceX has never done a launch to orbit in November), it's nice to see the Falcon spread her wings again!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lar on 12/15/2017 03:16 PM
The NASA TV coverage had a pretty good tracking cam on the way down, like NROL-76.

I hate to have a repeat of the "calipers" but there was most definitely a washer flying around at the end of the NASA TV replays during Dragon separation!  No way it was ice this time IMO.

... because ice never forms in toroids?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Req on 12/15/2017 03:17 PM
The NASA TV coverage had a pretty good tracking cam on the way down, like NROL-76.

I hate to have a repeat of the "calipers" but there was most definitely a washer flying around at the end of the NASA TV replays during Dragon separation!  No way it was ice this time IMO.

... because ice never forms in toroids?

Rewind and actually watch it.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Rhyshaelkan on 12/15/2017 03:19 PM
Love that NASA burnback and landing footage.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: stcks on 12/15/2017 03:19 PM
A big round of congratulations to all of those pad-rats, welding techs, cable runners, concrete workers, etc, etc, involved in bringing SLC-40 back to operational status after AMOS-6. I know it was a long and arduous process. I hope a well deserved Christmas holiday begins today.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: obi-wan on 12/15/2017 03:19 PM
Two issues from the coverage:

1) On the launch replays from NASATV, the LC40 camera on the tip of the lightning mast showed what appeared to be a large red rag come off of the vehicle (I think from somewhere around Dragon) and flutter past in the clouds of exhaust. FOD?

2) Periodically during the technical SpaceX broadcast they went to an aerial image of LC40 from the southeast. It appeared to be a still image, but would have been an incredible angle on the launch. What was this image? (and comment - if they can have a drone in the air to film the landing, why not also use it to film the launch? They did this to great effect with the hops at McGregor, when will we get to see that perspective for an orbital launch?)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: e of pi on 12/15/2017 03:24 PM
2) Periodically during the technical SpaceX broadcast they went to an aerial image of LC40 from the southeast. It appeared to be a still image, but would have been an incredible angle on the launch. What was this image? (and comment - if they can have a drone in the air to film the landing, why not also use it to film the launch? They did this to great effect with the hops at McGregor, when will we get to see that perspective for an orbital launch?)
It's a video fed from an animation--normally that animation shows a track of the second stage and first stage telemetry overlaid on a globe, which zooms in and rotates to show it. For some reason this flight, the second stage tracker never updated to leave LC-41 (data glitch or something feeding the animation), thus it showed a static image of the pad area and hence my joke a page or so back.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Perchlorate on 12/15/2017 03:30 PM
This is the first technical webcast SpaceX has done in a while, isn't it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsAIoqbUCgw

Maybe it's just me, but one of the coolest things about this video of Stage 1 entry and landing is that S1's downward-looking camera shows its own contrail from ascent, clearly, from about 28:45 to 29:45.  As the Landing Burn starts, the contrail is obscured...but it's almost as if it passes near or through the contrail.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Kaputnik on 12/15/2017 03:31 PM
Anyone else notice a big flat piece of debris flying away at liftoff?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: rpapo on 12/15/2017 03:34 PM
Anyone else notice a big flat piece of debris flying away at liftoff?
Yes.  Appeared to be at least six feet across.  Flew to the left, not far from the original level of the Dragon itself.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: catdlr on 12/15/2017 03:35 PM
Anyone else notice a big flat piece of debris flying away at liftoff?

you mean this?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: eeergo on 12/15/2017 03:39 PM

Anyone else notice a big flat piece of debris flying away at liftoff?


you mean this?

No, this.


There appears to be at least three bright red items (see last image) on the pad, visible to the mast camera. I gather the "rag" flying around could have come from the red area (cushioning?) close to the S1 LOX umbilical, when it got blasted by the plume upon liftoff, and got recirculated around by the turbulence.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: stcks on 12/15/2017 03:40 PM

Anyone else notice a big flat piece of debris flying away at liftoff?


you mean this?

No, this.


There appears to be at least three bright red items (see last image) on the pad, visible to the mast camera. I gather the "rag" flying around could have come from the red area (cushioning?) close to the S1 LOX umbilical, when it got blasted by the plume upon liftoff, and got recirculated around by the turbulence.

Its looks like the curved support piece on the TEL, you can see it in the pre-liftoff photo. Maybe it blew off during launch?

Edit: rewording the post to make it clear I'm guessing....

Edit2: and clearly this is wrong. something something about assuming ....
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ejb749 on 12/15/2017 03:42 PM
As an armchair rocket scientist, I also noticed what seems like a slow deploy on the grid fins, and then some sort of washer floating loose at Dragon release.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: eeergo on 12/15/2017 03:45 PM
As an armchair rocket scientist, I also noticed what seems like a slow deploy on the grid fins, and then some sort of washer floating loose at Dragon release.

The grid fins appeared to deploy normally to me, but two of the landing legs did hang around in almost vertical positions for significantly longer than the other pair did, much more so than in previous flights.

I wonder where a loose washer might have come from on the interior of the interstage, it was definitely not coming from the S1-S2 separation plane where things are supposed to come apart.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Pete on 12/15/2017 03:47 PM
The NASA TV coverage had a pretty good tracking cam on the way down, like NROL-76.

I hate to have a repeat of the "calipers" but there was most definitely a washer flying around at the end of the NASA TV replays during Dragon separation!  No way it was ice this time IMO.

... because ice never forms in toroids?

You... I....
Words fail me.
You believe what you want to believe, it must be nice in there
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 12/15/2017 03:51 PM
As an armchair rocket scientist, I also noticed what seems like a slow deploy on the grid fins, and then some sort of washer floating loose at Dragon release.

During the stage 2 powered flight, there was also what looked like an exhaust leak at the top of the engine bell, from beneath the piping that wraps around the top.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: JamesH65 on 12/15/2017 03:53 PM
The NASA TV coverage had a pretty good tracking cam on the way down, like NROL-76.

I hate to have a repeat of the "calipers" but there was most definitely a washer flying around at the end of the NASA TV replays during Dragon separation!  No way it was ice this time IMO.

... because ice never forms in toroids?

You... I....
Words fail me.
You believe what you want to believe, it must be nice in there

Ice?, washer? Washer made of ice? We'll probably never know. No need to be rude about.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: abaddon on 12/15/2017 03:57 PM
The fins were slow... no they were fast... that was a wrench... not made to last...

Ah yes... I remember it well.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lars-J on 12/15/2017 04:14 PM
Ah yes, the typical post-flight commentary on NSF we all have come to love. You all get a cookie - what would SpaceX do without you guys spotting critical malfunctions!?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: rockets4life97 on 12/15/2017 04:18 PM
I want to hear more about the demonstrations for Crew that have taken place on Cargo missions. Sounds like SpaceX won't discuss it (post-launch new conference). Maybe NASA will?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Rhyshaelkan on 12/15/2017 04:19 PM
Fun how the MC tried to keep it about the mission but all we want to know is about SpaceX. SpaceX needs to start doing it's own post launch briefings. Only with credible news sources though. We saw the travesty when questions were not screened before asking Elon Musk.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mme on 12/15/2017 04:21 PM
"Any questions related to the mission?"

I always feel bad for NASA at these post launch pressers when they fly SpaceX.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Jim on 12/15/2017 04:27 PM
Fun how the MC tried to keep it about the mission but all we want to know is about SpaceX. SpaceX needs to start doing it's own post launch briefings.

Not going to happen on NASA or commercial missions, so get use to it.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: vanoord on 12/15/2017 04:43 PM
What's this?

I suspect it's a temporary structure (tent) which would have been used during the re-building of the pad.

The previous TEL was dumped next to the 'tent', but the remains are now gone.

(IIRC the new TEL was built in the HIF building, so the temporary structure wasn't for that).
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: su27k on 12/15/2017 04:47 PM
What's this?

I suspect it's a temporary structure (tent) which would have been used during the re-building of the pad.

The previous TEL was dumped next to the 'tent', but the remains are now gone.

(IIRC the new TEL was built in the HIF building, so the temporary structure wasn't for that).

Yeah, you can see the tent clearly in the images here: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=41060.msg1671301#msg1671301, top left on 1st image, bottom left on 2nd image
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: centaurinasa on 12/15/2017 05:00 PM
According to the timeline, GNC "Guidance, Navigation & Control" bay door opens.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Brunberg on 12/15/2017 05:11 PM
According to the timeline, GNC "Guidance, Navigation & Control" bay door opens.

Are these photos taken from ISS?

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Hauerg on 12/15/2017 05:13 PM
According to the timeline, GNC "Guidance, Navigation & Control" bay door opens.

Are these photos taken from ISS?
No other way.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: eeergo on 12/15/2017 05:25 PM
Ah yes, the typical post-flight commentary on NSF we all have come to love. You all get a cookie - what would SpaceX do without you guys spotting critical malfunctions!? (http://emoji.tapatalk-cdn.com/emoji2.png)

Something I always loved from Shuttle postlaunch commentary in this forum, and which really made it stand out far above others, was the nice technical discussion on potential items on interest we could spot from the public video feeds, and the fact-checking with DAT reports days later. This was always civil, at least within the informed people that cared to discuss it technically and not use this amateur "spotting" as a way to advance agendas. In fact, it was very enlightening as items of interest were a way of getting good insight into technical details.

In the name of sacrosanct "proprietary rights", it seems it's now almost bad taste to even fantasize about getting a bit of this kind of access, to the point of space enthusiasts self-censoring themselves over it, or trying to censor others. Except when analyzing NASA it seems.

This is neither scientific nor does it make sense, as long as the discussion isn't about bashing (or aggrandizing).

There was a washer, or some object that could raise suspicions a washer was freed from the first second stage. This would surely be a DAT item in STS times (have a look at what minutiae their reports covered). This is a healthy attitude IMHO, as opposed to trying to shut people up from discussing obvious (probably harmless) potential anomalies seen on camera, just because it's some private company and we have to be more worried about their "privacy" than we'd be for anyone else.

edit/gongora: corrected stage number from which debris may have been spotted.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lar on 12/15/2017 06:10 PM
The NASA TV coverage had a pretty good tracking cam on the way down, like NROL-76.

I hate to have a repeat of the "calipers" but there was most definitely a washer flying around at the end of the NASA TV replays during Dragon separation!  No way it was ice this time IMO.

... because ice never forms in toroids?

You... I....
Words fail me.
You believe what you want to believe, it must be nice in there

Ice?, washer? Washer made of ice? We'll probably never know. No need to be rude about.

All I'm saying is that we have had multiple "something came out" speculation-fests from things spotted in vids of prior launches... I'm open minded about what this one is. My comment was intended to elicit some discussion about why it can't be ice.


Edit: One BIG reason might be that there isn't a place where ice would form in the space between S2 and the trunk, unlike in the interstage....

That said I agree with eeergo, well informed, thoughtful, and polite speculation is one of the things we do well around here. That and reconstructing things from clues (never forget it was a team of NSF boffins that reconstructed the landing video after SpaceX gave up...)...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lars-J on 12/15/2017 06:18 PM
(never forget it was a team of NSF boffins that reconstructed the landing video after SpaceX gave up...)...

Yeah, but while that was a fun project, it was ultimately meaningless in a historical context. SpaceX gave up on it because they knew they would get much better footage soon, and they did. So let’s not exaggerate it as some sort of service to humanity. :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: punder on 12/15/2017 06:22 PM
In service to humanity, I must report that a flat, circular object floated loose in the second stage at Dragon separation.

If you zoom in, you can clearly see a SpaceX "X" in the center of the object.

 ::)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lar on 12/15/2017 06:38 PM
(never forget it was a team of NSF boffins that reconstructed the landing video after SpaceX gave up...)...

Yeah, but while that was a fun project, it was ultimately meaningless in a historical context. SpaceX gave up on it because they knew they would get much better footage soon, and they did. So let’s not exaggerate it as some sort of service to humanity. :)

Tough crowd. Even when I'm trying to walk back my initial skepticism[1], you bust my chops. But no, I don't agree, that vid did provide useful info, and it got a shout out from Elon. Polio vaccine level service to humanity? no. But service to humanity nonetheless.

So what is this thing? Washers typically don't come loose unless the nut holding them on comes loose, was that just missed? r is it something else like a spacer?

1 - actually, I just wanted to use "boffins" in a sentence
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: oiorionsbelt on 12/15/2017 07:08 PM

So what is this thing? Washers typically don't come loose unless the nut holding them on comes loose, was that just missed? r is it something else like a spacer?


Just before the floating washer there was this picture of the bottom of the Dragon.
 What is this? Does it come off at Dragon sep? Those washers look familiar.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Rocket Science on 12/15/2017 07:17 PM
I thought it was just a "seal" from the stage attach points... Alert the villagers at SpaceX...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: LouScheffer on 12/15/2017 07:19 PM
All I'm saying is that we have had multiple "something came out" speculation-fests from things spotted in vids of prior launches... I'm open minded about what this one is. My comment was intended to elicit some discussion about why it can't be ice.
Having stuff come out in zero gee is hardly wild conspiracy thinking.   ISS crew wear masks when entering new space, so it's considered a plausible occurence.  The FAA  requires circuits to be hardened against it (https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ast/media/Recommended_Practices_for_HSF_Occupant_Safety-Version_1-TC14-0037.pdf).  It happened on the Blue Origin flight just a few days ago.  It happened on Apollo flights - here from Apollo 14 (http://distantsuns.com/ed-mitchell-and-apollo-14/):
Quote
The next issue was floating debris in the LM cabin. Both the LM and CM are tumbled after construction(must have been an interesting sight) to loosen any small bits of junk that shouldn’t be there, such as wires, solder blobs, washers and so on. A floating washer in Antares showed that the tumbling didn’t really work as well as it should have, possibly the cause of the docking issue as well. Extraneous debris like this when in the electronics can cause all sorts of havoc and so it is taken very seriously.
My personal speculation is that this is not better or worse than the historical norm.  It's just easier to spot now with high-res cams monitoring separation.  Whatever it is, the piece that floated away would never have been seen by classical telemetry.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mme on 12/15/2017 07:48 PM
Was it my imagination or was one of the landing legs a little slow being deployed?

Oops. Missed giving congrats to all involved. 17 launches - amazing!
It's common for the legs to deploy at different rates.  No idea if this one was off nominal, but if you go watch a bunch of landings you'll see there is frequently a leg a bit slower than the rest.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: CyndyC on 12/15/2017 08:01 PM
Having stuff come out in zero gee is hardly wild conspiracy thinking.   ISS crew wear masks when entering new space, so it's considered a plausible occurence.  The FAA  requires circuits to be hardened against it (https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ast/media/Recommended_Practices_for_HSF_Occupant_Safety-Version_1-TC14-0037.pdf).  It happened on the Blue Origin flight just a few days ago.  It happened on Apollo flights - here from Apollo 14 (http://distantsuns.com/ed-mitchell-and-apollo-14/):
Quote
The next issue was floating debris in the LM cabin. Both the LM and CM are tumbled after construction(must have been an interesting sight) to loosen any small bits of junk that shouldn’t be there, such as wires, solder blobs, washers and so on. A floating washer in Antares showed that the tumbling didn’t really work as well as it should have, possibly the cause of the docking issue as well. Extraneous debris like this when in the electronics can cause all sorts of havoc and so it is taken very seriously.
My personal speculation is that this is not better or worse than the historical norm.  It's just easier to spot now with high-res cams monitoring separation.  Whatever it is, the piece that floated away would never have been seen by classical telemetry.

At this point I'm thinking the washer might have just been one that was dropped during the movement to attach it, and then couldn't be found again ;). Who hasn't ever picked up a tool and had something like that happen.

Have never seen a discussion that SpaceX tumbles their vehicles. Being the mavericks they are, maybe they haven't heard of the practice or for some other reason don't do it?

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Jim on 12/15/2017 08:05 PM

Have never seen a discussion that SpaceX tumbles their vehicles. Being the mavericks they are, maybe they haven't heard of the practice or for some other reason don't do it?


I don't know of any manufacturer that tumbles spacecraft in this day in age.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 12/15/2017 08:11 PM
Am I imagining it or has SpaceX invented a self-cleaning booster? :)

Presumably ice formed on the cold surface has fallen away and taken soot with it?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mheney on 12/15/2017 08:15 PM
Am I imagining it or has SpaceX invented a self-cleaning booster? :)

Presumably ice formed on the cold surface has fallen away and taken soot with it?

I was thinking the same thing when I watched the launch ...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lars-J on 12/15/2017 08:18 PM
Am I imagining it or has SpaceX invented a self-cleaning booster? :)

Presumably ice formed on the cold surface has fallen away and taken soot with it?

As long as there is LOX in the Tank, a thin ice layer will remain on the outside. (Which is what prevents new soot from sticking) I think it might just be that layer that you are seeing here.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: CyndyC on 12/15/2017 08:25 PM
Its the curved support piece on the TEL, you can see it in the pre-liftoff photo. It evidently blew off during launch. I'm sure it will be on the pad errata list that will be forthcoming.

You speak with a tone of authority and seem certain, but I can't see the part you're talking about on the TEL.

Just to add a different perspective, it looks to me like a piece of newly laid sod close to the pad was dislodged.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: stcks on 12/15/2017 08:28 PM
Its the curved support piece on the TEL, you can see it in the pre-liftoff photo. It evidently blew off during launch. I'm sure it will be on the pad errata list that will be forthcoming.

You speak with a tone of authority and seem certain, but I can't see the part you're talking about on the TEL.

Just to add a different perspective, it looks to me like a piece of newly laid sod close to the pad was dislodged.

I'm sorry about that. I reworded the post so it doesn't sound like I'm doing anything except guessing.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: AnalogMan on 12/15/2017 08:32 PM
Having stuff come out in zero gee is hardly wild conspiracy thinking.   ISS crew wear masks when entering new space, so it's considered a plausible occurence.  The FAA  requires circuits to be hardened against it (https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ast/media/Recommended_Practices_for_HSF_Occupant_Safety-Version_1-TC14-0037.pdf).  It happened on the Blue Origin flight just a few days ago.  It happened on Apollo flights - here from Apollo 14 (http://distantsuns.com/ed-mitchell-and-apollo-14/):
Quote
The next issue was floating debris in the LM cabin. Both the LM and CM are tumbled after construction(must have been an interesting sight) to loosen any small bits of junk that shouldn’t be there, such as wires, solder blobs, washers and so on. A floating washer in Antares showed that the tumbling didn’t really work as well as it should have, possibly the cause of the docking issue as well. Extraneous debris like this when in the electronics can cause all sorts of havoc and so it is taken very seriously.
My personal speculation is that this is not better or worse than the historical norm.  It's just easier to spot now with high-res cams monitoring separation.  Whatever it is, the piece that floated away would never have been seen by classical telemetry.

At this point I'm thinking the washer might have just been one that was dropped during the movement to attach it, and then couldn't be found again ;) . Who hasn't ever picked up a tool and had something like that happen.

Have never seen a discussion that SpaceX tumbles their vehicles. Being the mavericks they are, maybe they haven't heard of the practice or for some other reason don't do it?


The last shuttle that flew had one lost-not-found item (a set-screw for a backshell) in the aft of the orbiter, and four lost-not-found items (3 Hi-Lok fasteners and a lock bolt) in the External Tank intertank space.  Search times for each were logged as 8 hours.

Good news was that a total of 16 items that were initially lost in various parts of the orbiter were eventually found before launch!

Lost-not-found and lost-and-found reports were a regular part of shuttle missions (as I'm sure they are for all current launch companies' missions).
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 12/15/2017 08:34 PM
Am I imagining it or has SpaceX invented a self-cleaning booster? :)

Presumably ice formed on the cold surface has fallen away and taken soot with it?

As long as there is LOX in the Tank, a thin ice layer will remain on the outside. (Which is what prevents new soot from sticking) I think it might just be that layer that you are seeing here.

Maybe, although to me it looks rather dirtier on the pad which is when I’d expect there to be more ice?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: meekGee on 12/15/2017 08:38 PM
Ah yes, the typical post-flight commentary on NSF we all have come to love. You all get a cookie - what would SpaceX do without you guys spotting critical malfunctions!?
No need to get snarky.  Nobody said SpaceX's can't handle it.

Just some guys analyzing footage of a launch.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ATPTourFan on 12/15/2017 09:04 PM
On the technical webcast (thanks for sharing that!), has anyone seen an early test of water suppression system before at T-4:35?

One of the enhancements SpaceX spoke about with the new SLC-40 was improvements to this system. I just don't remember, on either Historic LC-39A or SLC-40, seeing this water test at this point in the count.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsAIoqbUCgw?t=11m20s
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: cppetrie on 12/15/2017 09:25 PM

So what is this thing? Washers typically don't come loose unless the nut holding them on comes loose, was that just missed? r is it something else like a spacer?


Just before the floating washer there was this picture of the bottom of the Dragon.
 What is this? Does it come off at Dragon sep? Those washers look familiar.
Those look like riveted snaps as you might find on a coat or pants. Mounting point for a button-on cover of some sort?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: billh on 12/15/2017 10:59 PM
We had a long shot this time of the Dragon after spacecraft separation and I was really hoping to see the solar array covers jettisoned. Alas, no! Has it ever been shown on any video? I can't recall ever seeing it.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: deruch on 12/15/2017 11:26 PM
We had a long shot this time of the Dragon after spacecraft separation and I was really hoping to see the solar array covers jettisoned. Alas, no! Has it ever been shown on any video? I can't recall ever seeing it.

Yes, we've seen it at least once.  Though I don't remember which mission.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: wannamoonbase on 12/15/2017 11:38 PM
Congrats SpaceX and NASA.  Another great launch and landing.

I don’t think I’ll ever get bored of watching a core land.

Really nice to see LC40 active again, bring on the next one!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: hpras on 12/15/2017 11:56 PM
Looks like the Eye of Sauron when it goes to 3 engine retroburn

Love that NASA burnback and landing footage.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: su27k on 12/16/2017 02:21 AM
We had a long shot this time of the Dragon after spacecraft separation and I was really hoping to see the solar array covers jettisoned. Alas, no! Has it ever been shown on any video? I can't recall ever seeing it.

Yes, we've seen it at least once.  Though I don't remember which mission.

CRS-6, which happened to be the previous use of this Dragon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csVpa25iqH0?t=1701

I was also hoping they can get another view of the covers jettison, but they kept switching back to MVac.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: billh on 12/16/2017 03:21 AM
We had a long shot this time of the Dragon after spacecraft separation and I was really hoping to see the solar array covers jettisoned. Alas, no! Has it ever been shown on any video? I can't recall ever seeing it.

Yes, we've seen it at least once.  Though I don't remember which mission.

CRS-6, which happened to be the previous use of this Dragon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csVpa25iqH0?t=1701

I was also hoping they can get another view of the covers jettison, but they kept switching back to MVac.

Awesome. Thanks!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 12/16/2017 06:56 PM
Having looked at more pictures (SpaceX one attached) it’s now clear that one side of the booster was clean at lift-off while the other side was still sooty. The clean side was closer to the strong back and thus the one with lots of LOX vapours swirling around it. So maybe that’s the cleaning agent?!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ugordan on 12/16/2017 07:17 PM
Having looked at more pictures (SpaceX one attached) it’s now clear that one side of the booster was clean at lift-off while the other side was still sooty. The clean side was closer to the strong back and thus the one with lots of LOX vapours swirling around it. So maybe that’s the cleaning agent?!

It wasn't cleaned, it was just iced-over. Watch the webcast, the wind was blowing from the strongback direction so that's where most of the water vapor condensed on the tankage.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mdeep on 12/16/2017 07:48 PM
A journey in photos...

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: llanitedave on 12/16/2017 08:09 PM
2 things I noticed:  First, the first stage flip after staging was extremely fast, making for an efficiently timed boostback burn.  Second, no flaming fuel drip after landing!  The postlanding was very clean.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ugordan on 12/16/2017 09:25 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsN7lt2VeFU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTbGSQ4rcZw
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ugordan on 12/16/2017 09:35 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRqLtvMxnfs
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: John Cardinal on 12/16/2017 11:20 PM
I just (maybe 30 minutes ago) watched the ISS do a pass overhead. Even though it’s a bit cloudy here, it was still visible and was darned near directly overhead at one point. Trailing some distance behind it I saw another, much dimmer dot of light. Did I see CRS 13? 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 12/17/2017 01:12 AM
I just (maybe 30 minutes ago) watched the ISS do a pass overhead. Even though it’s a bit cloudy here, it was still visible and was darned near directly overhead at one point. Trailing some distance behind it I saw another, much dimmer dot of light. Did I see CRS 13?

There are currently a total of 3 satellites sharing approximately the same orbit, but slightly offset in perigee/apogee:
ISS
Cygnus OA-8
Dragon SpX-13

Dragon rendezvous and berths with ISS tomorrow.  Also, I checked the orbits and pass details (for my location) for both satellites on heavens-above.com (http://heavens-above.com) : It matches your brief description above!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: bjornl on 12/17/2017 08:32 AM
2 things I noticed:  First, the first stage flip after staging was extremely fast, making for an efficiently timed boostback burn.
Noticed that one too, and went back to find comparison. Side-by-side with NROL-76: http://youtubedoubler.com/mqCH

[edit for shorter URL]
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : CRS-13 : Dec 15, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: wannamoonbase on 12/17/2017 02:45 PM
2 things I noticed:  First, the first stage flip after staging was extremely fast, making for an efficiently timed boostback burn.
Noticed that one too, and went back to find comparison. Side-by-side with NROL-76: http://youtubedoubler.com/mqCH

[edit for shorter URL]

Super quick turn and burn.  Seems SpaceX is getting the timing refined. 

It will be interesting to see how fast the FH side boosters can do the boost back burn since they peel off the side versus axial separation.