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SpaceX Vehicles and Missions => SpaceX Missions Section => Topic started by: gongora on 08/18/2016 03:10 AM

Title: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : Oct. 30, 2017 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: gongora on 08/18/2016 03:10 AM
Discussion Thread for Koreasat 5A mission.


NSF Threads for Koreasat 5A : Discussion (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40947.0) / Updates (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43901.0) / L2 Coverage September-October (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43611.0)
/ ASDS (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?board=66.0) / Party (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40089.msg1520968#msg1520968)
NSF Articles for Koreasat 5A :
   SpaceX realign near-term manifest ahead of double launch salvo (https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/09/spacex-realign-manifest-double-launch-salvo/)
   Static Fire test article (https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/10/spacex-static-fire-falcon-9-koreasat-5a/)
   Launch article (https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/10/falcon-9-koreasat-5a-nasa-approves-flown-boosters/)

Successful launch October 30 2017 on Falcon 9 (booster 1042) from LC-39A at 3:34pm EDT (1934 UTC).  ASDS landing was successful.



Other SpaceX resources on NASASpaceflight:
   SpaceX News Articles (Recent) (http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/tag/spacex/)
   SpaceX News Articles from 2006 (Including numerous exclusive Elon interviews) (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=21862.0)
   SpaceX Dragon Articles (http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/tag/dragon/)
   SpaceX Missions Section (with Launch Manifest and info on past and future missions) (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?board=55.0)

   L2 SpaceX Section (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?board=60.0)



Thales Alenia Space to build Koreasat-7 and Koreasat-5A satellites (https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-release/thales-alenia-space-build-koreasat-7-and-koreasat-5a-satellites)
Quote
Cannes, May 12th, 2014 – Thales Alenia Space announced today that it has signed a contract with the Korean satellite service operator KT Sat, subsidiary of KT Corporation, to build two telecommunications satellites, Koreasat-7 and Koreasat-5A, winning the contract against an international field of competitors. The two satellites will provide Internet access, multimedia, broadcasting and fixed communications services.

As program prime contractor, Thales Alenia Space is in charge of the design, production, testing and On Ground Delivery (OGD) of the satellites. It will also take charge of the launch campaigns, the launch and early operations phase (LEOP)  and in-orbit tests (IOT).

Built on the Upgraded Spacebus 4000B2 platform from Thales Alenia Space, Koreasat-7 will be fitted with Ku-band transponders and Ka-band transponders. Koreasat-5A will carry Ku-band transponders. Koreasat-7's coverage zone encompasses Korea, the Philippines, Indonesia and India, while Koreasat-5A will cover Korea, Japan, Indochina and the Middle East. Each satellite will weigh about 3,500 kg at launch and will offer payload power of about 7 kW. Koreasat-7 will be positioned at 116° East and Koreasat-5A at 113° East.

"I would like to express my warm thanks to KT Sat for choosing us to build these two new telecommunications satellites," said Jean-Loïc Galle, President and CEO of Thales Alenia Space. "KT Sat is a long-standing customer, for whom we already built the Koreasat-5 and Koreasat-6 satellites. Through this new contract, we are delighted to support the development of large-scale space programs in South Korea, and in Asia in general."

April 20, 2015 Aerospace-Technology.com: Thales Alenia Space completes preliminary design review of Koreasat-7 and Koreasat-5A satellites (http://www.aerospace-technology.com/news/newsthales-alenia-space-completes-preliminary-design-review-koreasat-7-koreasat-5a-satellites-4557399)

Koreasat 5A and 7 telecom satellites to include the largest 3D printed spacecraft parts ever made in Europe (https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-release/koreasat-5a-and-7-telecom-satellites-include-largest-3d-printed-parts)
Quote
Cannes, October 12, 2015 – The Koreasat 5A and Koreasat 7 telecommunications satellites currently under construction by Thales Alenia Space will include the largest spacecraft parts ever made in Europe using a 3D printing technique called the “powder bed additive manufacturing process”. Measuring some 45cm by 40cm by 21cm, these telemetry and command antenna supports are made of aluminum. The parts for the two satellites are identical and were made in the same batch by the same machine.

Thales Alenia Space uses the Concept Laser Xline 1000R 3D printer, the largest laser beam melting machine in Europe,  belonging to Poly-Shape, a French company and partner of Thales Alenia Space.

These two parts, featuring an innovative bio-design, have just passed their vibration acceptance tests, demonstrating perfectly reproducible dynamic behavior. Using 3D printing technology on this type of part offers a number of advantages, including 22% weight savings, a decrease in the production schedule of around one or two months, about 30% cost savings, and higher performance.

An antenna support of this type is already in orbit since April 2015 on the TurkmenAlem satellite also built by Thales Alenia Space.

June 9, 2016 Tweet from Peter B. de Selding (https://twitter.com/pbdes/status/740867500754280449)
Quote
KTSat: We plan November SpaceX launch of our Koreasat 5A & early 2017 Ariane launch of Koreasat 7. But launch dates are moving targets....

KT SAT Fleet Page (http://www.ktsat.net/coverage-map/) (has description of Koreasat 5A)

Koreasat 5A on Gunter's Space Page (http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/koreasat-5a.htm)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: gongora on 02/17/2017 04:45 AM
https://twitter.com/pbdes/status/827479074021003264
Quote
pbdes: @Thales_Alenia_S(3): 2d batch of IRDM Next sats planned for April on @SpaceX. Koreasat 5A geo sat may launch July on @SpaceX, then 3d IRDM.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: rockets4life97 on 05/05/2017 10:09 PM
My guess is this is now August after CRS-12. There was some slip since February of getting 39A active and then the NROLl two week slip. That should be enough to push this a month given a 2 week launch cadence.

There is an outside chance that this is the first flight back at SLC-40 if 40 is operational by the end of August.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: gongora on 06/16/2017 09:04 PM
[SpaceNews] South Korea’s KT Sat wins Mongolian customer for Koreasat-5A (http://spacenews.com/south-koreas-kt-sat-wins-mongolian-customer-for-koreasat-5a/)
Quote
KT Sat announced June 14 that DDish TV, Mongolia’s sole direct-to-home television broadcaster, signed a multi-transponder lease for Koreasat-5A, a Ku-band satellite from Thales Alenia Space expected to launch on a SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket by year’s end.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Norm38 on 06/18/2017 01:04 AM
The manifest indicates that there are plenty of launch slots in late summer into fall. So is this payload gated at the moment?  Maybe that's part of how the X-37B got an August launch?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: gongora on 06/18/2017 12:32 PM
The manifest indicates that there are plenty of launch slots in late summer into fall. So is this payload gated at the moment?  Maybe that's part of how the X-37B got an August launch?

1. Plenty of launch slots?  Only if you think SpaceX is ready to fly 3+ times a month indefinitely.  They have enough payloads on the manifest for 5 flights every 2 months, which would get them to around 24 flights for the year.
2. X-37B could have gotten an August launch slot a long time ago and we've never really gotten a firm date for Koreasat 5A.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: deruch on 06/18/2017 10:13 PM
The manifest indicates that there are plenty of launch slots in late summer into fall. So is this payload gated at the moment?  Maybe that's part of how the X-37B got an August launch?

That's more a consequence of us just not knowing exactly what the lineup will be more than any indication of payload readiness.  I don't think we can make any reliable deductions yet.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: gongora on 06/27/2017 07:51 PM
http://www.satnews.com/story.php?number=1007807499
Quote
KT SAT plans to launch the KOREASAT-5A satellite in fourth quarter of 2017.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: gongora on 07/28/2017 08:02 PM
I found an image of Koreasat-5A on the KT Sat web site and attached it to the top post in the thread.  It is a bit higher resolution than they normally release  :)  The original png file from their site was 46MB, I saved it as a slightly compressed jpg to get the size down a little.  If you want to get the original it's at https://www.ktsat.net/newsroom/press-kit/.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: gongora on 09/20/2017 07:39 PM
Does anyone know if this is at the launch site yet?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: crandles57 on 09/21/2017 12:46 AM
Quote
10 days (Sept. 29) to SpaceX Falcon 9 (SES-11) Static Fire...at 39A. Oct. 2 launch, then all hands on deck to prep 39A TEL for Falcon Heavy.

https://twitter.com/NASASpaceflight/status/910239656779943937

dated 19 Sep 2017

Seems suggestive of move to SLC-40 even if followed by
Quote
You know I dare not call 40 until I see it on a schedule :)

Is there anything more definitive about Koreasat 5A being SLC-40?

Edit: Answer: Increasingly likely to be LC39A per link in following post
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Chris Bergin on 09/25/2017 11:54 PM
Booster at McGregor:
https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/09/spacex-realign-manifest-double-launch-salvo/
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: gongora on 09/26/2017 04:26 PM
Quote
Tweet from Stephen Clark (https://twitter.com/StephenClark1/status/912713399083130881)
SpaceX sets Oct. 7 & 9 launch dates for next two Falcon 9 flights from East and West Coasts. Koreasat 5A in late Oct. confirmed from pad 39A
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Chris Bergin on 09/26/2017 08:58 PM
It's based on this e-mail that I completely missed earlier :)

>SpaceX Opens Media Accreditation for Koreasat-5A Mission


HAWTHORNE, Calif. – Sep. 26, 2017. Media accreditation is now open for SpaceX's Koreasat-5A mission from Launch Complex 39A (LC-39A) at Kennedy Space Center in Florida. The launch is targeted for no earlier than late October.

A SpaceX Falcon 9 will deliver Koreasat-5A, a commercial communications satellite for KT SAT, to a geostationary transfer orbit (GTO).


More details on the mission and pre-launch media activities will be made available on a date closer to launch. <>
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jarnis on 09/27/2017 06:13 AM
Maybe they also put it to LC-39A because "Koreasat" - easier to get Korean delegates on site when you don't need to get them Air Force clearances and stuff...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: jpo234 on 09/27/2017 10:57 AM
Maybe they also put it to LC-39A because "Koreasat" - easier to get Korean delegates on site when you don't need to get them Air Force clearances and stuff...

Huh? Why would there be a special problem for South Koreans? The Republic of China (aka Taiwan) representatives had no obvious problem to get into Vandenberg AFB for the launch of FORMOSAT-5.

Or did you mistake the home of Samsung for the home of kjulat (https://twitter.com/kjulat)?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jarnis on 09/27/2017 12:17 PM
Maybe they also put it to LC-39A because "Koreasat" - easier to get Korean delegates on site when you don't need to get them Air Force clearances and stuff...

Huh? Why would there be a special problem for South Koreans? The Republic of China (aka Taiwan) representatives had no obvious problem to get into Vandenberg AFB for the launch of FORMOSAT-5.

Or did you mistake the home of Samsung for the home of kjulat (https://twitter.com/kjulat)?

No.

There has been general issues (basically, slower processing) as referenced by, if I recall right, SES. Basically it is harder to get foreigners cleared for LC-40 as it resides in Air Force base.

But I guess in this case the main driver is just "LC-40 not yet ready" and any potential shorter accreditation timelines are just a side benefit.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ChrisGebhardt on 09/28/2017 12:36 AM
Maybe they also put it to LC-39A because "Koreasat" - easier to get Korean delegates on site when you don't need to get them Air Force clearances and stuff...

Huh? Why would there be a special problem for South Koreans? The Republic of China (aka Taiwan) representatives had no obvious problem to get into Vandenberg AFB for the launch of FORMOSAT-5.

Or did you mistake the home of Samsung for the home of kjulat (https://twitter.com/kjulat)?

There has been general issues (basically, slower processing) as referenced by, if I recall right, SES. Basically it is harder to get foreigners cleared for LC-40 as it resides in Air Force base.


Not true.  In fact, it's harder to get foreign media accredited for 39A missions that aren't NASA flights... so much so that SpaceX has outright told foreign media for some 39A missions that foreign media aren't allowed.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jarnis on 09/28/2017 05:14 AM
Maybe they also put it to LC-39A because "Koreasat" - easier to get Korean delegates on site when you don't need to get them Air Force clearances and stuff...

Huh? Why would there be a special problem for South Koreans? The Republic of China (aka Taiwan) representatives had no obvious problem to get into Vandenberg AFB for the launch of FORMOSAT-5.

Or did you mistake the home of Samsung for the home of kjulat (https://twitter.com/kjulat)?

There has been general issues (basically, slower processing) as referenced by, if I recall right, SES. Basically it is harder to get foreigners cleared for LC-40 as it resides in Air Force base.


Not true.  In fact, it's harder to get foreign media accredited for 39A missions that aren't NASA flights... so much so that SpaceX has outright told foreign media for some 39A missions that foreign media aren't allowed.

I was not referring to press, I was referring to the staff of the party that is paying for the launch and handling the payload.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Chris Bergin on 10/02/2017 04:01 PM
Per L2, this mission is "Range Approved" by the Eastern Range for 39A, with a launch window opening at 15:34 Eastern, running through to 17:58 on October 30.

The Static Fire has been placed in the schedule for October 26.

Will create an update only thread today.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jakusb on 10/15/2017 06:41 PM
The roomba is optional for landing, but that broken thruster pod is not...
How much time do they need before they need to sail off again for KoreaSat booster?
Can they fix it in time?
What are consequences for that booster if it cannot be fixed in time?
Expend it or postpone launch?
So many questions...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: macpacheco on 10/17/2017 09:32 AM
The roomba is optional for landing, but that broken thruster pod is not...
How much time do they need before they need to sail off again for KoreaSat booster?
Can they fix it in time?
What are consequences for that booster if it cannot be fixed in time?
Expend it or postpone launch?
So many questions...
One of the reasons for choosing this Marmac platform for ASDS is its easy to fix. Its NOT rocket science. There's very very low probability it won't be fixed in time. And I'm pretty certain the launch will proceed regardless of ASDS being ready or not. Recoveries from LEO are important cause those boosters are likely to be reflown. From GTO, not so much (until its a full Block V).
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ClayJar on 10/17/2017 04:21 PM
The roomba is optional for landing, but that broken thruster pod is not...

Are four fully operational thrusters actually necessary for landing?  With four independently powered thrusters, I don't imagine the stationkeeping algorithm would be rendered unable to function by having one less.  I could certainly see the loss of one thruster reducing the available margins when it comes to control authority, putting tighter constraints on acceptable weather.

It would be interesting to know what the minimum equipment list for an ASDS would be.  Is one thruster offline acceptable?  How about two diagonal? same side? same end?  And how does a set of three current thrusters compare to the original four thrusters back before they were upgraded?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: vanoord on 10/17/2017 05:00 PM
The roomba is optional for landing, but that broken thruster pod is not...

Are four fully operational thrusters actually necessary for landing?  With four independently powered thrusters, I don't imagine the stationkeeping algorithm would be rendered unable to function by having one less.  I could certainly see the loss of one thruster reducing the available margins when it comes to control authority, putting tighter constraints on acceptable weather.

It would be interesting to know what the minimum equipment list for an ASDS would be.  Is one thruster offline acceptable?  How about two diagonal? same side? same end?  And how does a set of three current thrusters compare to the original four thrusters back before they were upgraded?

Probably not the place to discuss it at length, but I'd suspect that the positioning system would be able to hold station adequately on three thrusters - as long as the control system knew that it only had those three thrusters.  If it believed it had four but only three were operating, the results might not be so great.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: JasonAW3 on 10/17/2017 07:55 PM
The roomba is optional for landing, but that broken thruster pod is not...

Are four fully operational thrusters actually necessary for landing?  With four independently powered thrusters, I don't imagine the stationkeeping algorithm would be rendered unable to function by having one less.  I could certainly see the loss of one thruster reducing the available margins when it comes to control authority, putting tighter constraints on acceptable weather.

It would be interesting to know what the minimum equipment list for an ASDS would be.  Is one thruster offline acceptable?  How about two diagonal? same side? same end?  And how does a set of three current thrusters compare to the original four thrusters back before they were upgraded?

Probably not the place to discuss it at length, but I'd suspect that the positioning system would be able to hold station adequately on three thrusters - as long as the control system knew that it only had those three thrusters.  If it believed it had four but only three were operating, the results might not be so great.

Properly programmed, it would know if it had a non-functioning pod or two.  (might require some additional sensors to check if the pod were producing thrust and how much, as blades could be damaged on the pod and it would still act as if it were functioning normally).

     In fact, with proper programming and a relatively calm sea, (outside of a current) I suspect that the ASDS could maintain station keeping with only two pods.

     Regardless; would they be able to reprogram this flight to a Cape landing, if the ASDS isn't available?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: EspenU on 10/17/2017 08:53 PM
This is probably starting to get off topic, but just to put the discussion to rest.

Yes, a DP system would be able to hold position with 3 azi pods (unless the weather was really bad of course).
2 pods might work, but it will depend on the rotation time of the thrusters, weather, and how important it is to maintain a specific heading. Heading is often prioritized over position, but I'm guessing that's not the case for the ASDS.

Interesting fact: when working with few thruster, perfectly still weather is much harder to work with than if there is a little bit of wind or current. With no weather the thrusters have to keep turning 180 (or reversing) to compensate for its own forces. With a little wind/current the system can use the weather as a counter force and just use the thrusters in one direction.

A good DP system will often have an internal model that shows it what to expect when a given force is applied. That is then compared to refsys data like GPS.
If a  thruster is damaged, giving less thrust,  the system will see it as an unexpected force (like current) and can often compensate by adjusting its model (within limits of course).

Note that I don't know the details of the thrustmaster system on the ASDS. But I work with DP systems on a daily basis.

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: gongora on 10/17/2017 09:08 PM
Further ASDS discussion should probably move to the ASDS threads.

Edit/lar: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=39766 seems well suited.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Formica on 10/17/2017 09:42 PM
Regardless; would they be able to reprogram this flight to a Cape landing, if the ASDS isn't available?

Negative. Koreasat 5A weighs an estimated 3500kg and is traveling to GTO. That's too heavy and too far for a Block 4 RTLS landing. If the ASDS is not available, they'd have to expend the booster.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 10/19/2017 05:04 PM
work being performed on the TEL/Launch mount in preparations for launch

taken yesterday, Note the small cane

(wonder if they are adding more equipment for Falcon Heavy as well)

https://www.instagram.com/p/BaZm5UXAUuS/

https://www.instagram.com/p/BaZn_67HXnJ/
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: foragefarmer on 10/22/2017 04:43 PM
Do they have a couple JLG boom lifts hoisted up on the RSS in that first pic?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: kdhilliard on 10/22/2017 05:20 PM
Do they have a couple JLG boom lifts hoisted up on the RSS in that first pic?

They were both up there during the Oct. 11 SES 11 launch.  See https://twitter.com/flatoday_jdean/status/918096757329932288

And clegg78 took a good photo of them when he toured KSC on Sept. 29.  See: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=41015.msg1730172#msg1730172
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: russianhalo117 on 10/22/2017 06:02 PM
Do they have a couple JLG boom lifts hoisted up on the RSS in that first pic?
yes and there were 3 and they have been up there since before the beginning of the year. It is becoming very hard for them to hide.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: su27k on 10/26/2017 05:05 AM
TEL is now back in the HIF. There are also reports that all three FH cores are in there as well, I'm sure it's nice and cozy!

Is it actually possible to fit 3 cores plus TEL in HIF at the same time? I thought HIF is only 5 cores wide, and TEL is 3 cores wide.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: vaporcobra on 10/26/2017 05:13 AM
TEL is now back in the HIF. There are also reports that all three FH cores are in there as well, I'm sure it's nice and cozy!

Is it actually possible to fit 3 cores plus TEL in HIF at the same time? I thought HIF is only 5 cores wide, and TEL is 3 cores wide.

Hehe some of us already spent way too long discussing this, but we concluded from our armchairs that it's at least possible to fit 4 cores and the TEL simultaneously. Not optimal, but possible.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: deruch on 10/26/2017 01:13 PM
I believe the additional cores can be shifted some toward the "upper end" of the HIF floor so that the wider base of the T/E isn't an issue when it is also inside.  This may not be a possibility when there are additional second stages inside (besides the one going on the T/E for the next launch), but should be fine if they only have the first stages in.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: StuffOfInterest on 10/26/2017 01:39 PM
I believe the additional cores can be shifted some toward the "upper end" of the HIF floor so that the wider base of the T/E isn't an issue when it is also inside.  This may not be a possibility when there are additional second stages inside (besides the one going on the T/E for the next launch), but should be fine if they only have the first stages in.

If I remember correctly, one of the photos from inside the HIF when several returned cores were in residence showed enough space for about five cores side-by-side.  This makes sense if you think about stacking operations for a Heavy.  Before the T/E is rolled in, the center core can be lifted up on the crane and the side boosters will sit off to the sides.  Once the T/E is inside, the center core can be put in place and then the crane has to pick up each side core and move it to the correct position.

There shouldn't be an issue with having the side cores inside when a single stick launch is being prepared.  They just never pick up the sides for mounting.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Chris Bergin on 10/26/2017 02:46 PM
SFN have paywalled the livestream of the test and all future tests I would assume (so while I'd encourage anyone to support a space site they use, it would rule out screenshots from members of their site on here as accreditation only works when it's a public link, which this stream no longer is). So unless Florida Today or someone else streams, the next "image" will be from the SpaceX tweet of confirmation.

Doubt this will be a problem for FH's tests and CRS etc...as it's going to be a full table of Facebook live etc. We'll have reporters there too and have it set up. But I am desperately trying to avoid any "oh, let's find a way around". Perfect world is everyone supports every space site they like.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: dedead on 10/26/2017 05:21 PM
Do you know if the ASDS is on it's way today for the launch of K5A ? I saw one on the sea 30 minutes from the pier of cocoa but i'm not sure.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Michael Baylor on 10/26/2017 07:54 PM
They are still in port.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lar on 10/26/2017 08:26 PM
They are still in port.
That's potentially sad news, splashing a new one, rather than a block 3...

If true though, while sad, it is the right thing to do for the customer
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: envy887 on 10/26/2017 08:35 PM
They are still in port.
That's potentially sad news, splashing a new one, rather than a block 3...

If true though, while sad, it is the right thing to do for the customer

KoreaSat-5A is only 3500 kg, a Block 4 F9 can easily send that to supersync GTO with a barge landing. Why wouldn't they try to get it back?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: IanThePineapple on 10/26/2017 08:35 PM
They are still in port.
That's potentially sad news, splashing a new one, rather than a block 3...

If true though, while sad, it is the right thing to do for the customer

They still have some time left AFAIK, might be rushing to finish up repairs
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: king1999 on 10/26/2017 08:51 PM
They are still in port.
That's potentially sad news, splashing a new one, rather than a block 3...

If true though, while sad, it is the right thing to do for the customer

They still have some time left AFAIK, might be rushing to finish up repairs

If they do a partial boost-back burn to return near the coast, the droneship won't take too much time to get positioned.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lar on 10/26/2017 08:55 PM
If they do a partial boost-back burn to return near the coast, the droneship won't take too much time to get positioned.

Nod. I wonder how much time they need to reconfigure things or if they have already calculated 5 or 10 different parameter loads for different landing points or even expendable with different things tested or ?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: deruch on 10/26/2017 09:17 PM
If they do a partial boost-back burn to return near the coast, the droneship won't take too much time to get positioned.

Nod. I wonder how much time they need to reconfigure things or if they have already calculated 5 or 10 different parameter loads for different landing points or even expendable with different things tested or ?

They've used a "contingency landing location" that repositioned the ASDS on at least 1 previous occasion, IIRC it was on one of the Iridium launches.  Which tells me that they likely have at least 2 or 3 targeted locations set up well before hand.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 10/29/2017 07:30 AM
Taken by VIP-badged guests at KSC earlier today! No obvious TEL changes that I can see.

Looks like the wings at the top of the TEL have been removed.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: rockets4life97 on 10/29/2017 01:12 PM
Looks like the wings at the top of the TEL have been removed.

I see them wrapped around the top of the rocket.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 10/29/2017 02:00 PM
Looks like the wings at the top of the TEL have been removed.

I see them wrapped around the top of the rocket.
No - those are the stabilizer arms.

But I do think the wings are still there, just very hard to make out
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: cppetrie on 10/29/2017 02:03 PM
Looks like the wings at the top of the TEL have been removed.

I see them wrapped around the top of the rocket.
No - those are the stabilizer arms.

But I do think the wings are still there, just very hard to make out
Right here minus the yellow insert?
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171029/7d040c1a670c118b3a4f99e37a39d5fe.jpg)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: vanoord on 10/29/2017 02:24 PM
They are still in port.

As far as it appears:

Hawk with OCISLY left Port Canaveral on Friday morning and was last noted far enough offshore to be pretty much confirmed as heading to the landing area.

Go Quest left port on Saturday.

Go Searcher is in Puerto Rico, but they only need one ship to back up OSCILY (per west coast practice).

Unless I’m mistaken, everything is in place for an ASDS recovery.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Scylla on 10/29/2017 02:50 PM
Screenshot from video by AmericaSpace.com I posted on update thread.

Wings are still there.

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: FutureMartian97 on 10/29/2017 07:57 PM
Does this Falcon 9 have titanium grid fins? If not, how many more flights until they have used up there supply of aluminium fins?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ChrisGebhardt on 10/29/2017 08:04 PM
Does this Falcon 9 have titanium grid fins? If not, how many more flights until they have used up there supply of aluminium fins?

It does not.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ZachS09 on 10/29/2017 08:39 PM
When will they post the webcast?  The launch is supposed to be tomorrow.  They seem to be getting later and later on posting.

I'm guessing about 12 hours before launch is when SpaceX will post the webcast.

Technically, it's when they begin promoting the upcoming webcast.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 10/29/2017 11:49 PM
When will they post the webcast?  The launch is supposed to be tomorrow.  They seem to be getting later and later on posting.

I'm guessing about 12 hours before launch is when SpaceX will post the webcast.

Technically, it's when they begin promoting the upcoming webcast.

Normally SpaceX don't update the webcast page on their website until after the vehicle is vertical on the pad, as they like use a photo showing the pad with the vehicle in launch position on their frontpage.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Pete on 10/30/2017 02:53 AM
When will they post the webcast?  The launch is supposed to be tomorrow.  They seem to be getting later and later on posting.

I'm guessing about 12 hours before launch is when SpaceX will post the webcast.

Technically, it's when they begin promoting the upcoming webcast.

Normally SpaceX don't update the webcast page on their website until after the vehicle is vertical on the pad, as they like use a photo showing the pad with the vehicle in launch position on their frontpage.

Well, they have the webcast link up, and its showing "live at 3:34am gmt-7" (6 hours from now)
So I'm guessing someone needs to update his pc's clock, or remember what timezone he is in, as this does not agree with the previous Notams, etc, issued for this launch.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Craftyatom on 10/30/2017 02:54 AM
I'm assuming that whoever posted it accidentally put "7:34 UTC" without specifying PM (since the listed time is 12 hours before the actual time), and that the actual launch time hasn't changed.

Edit: Changed from 10 to 7 UTC, my mistake - I myself have trouble with time zones sometimes.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: vanoord on 10/30/2017 08:41 AM
I'm assuming that whoever posted it accidentally put "10:34 UTC" without specifying PM (since the listed time is 12 hours before the actual time), and that the actual launch time hasn't changed.

Per SpaceX's website:

Quote
The primary launch window opens on Monday, October 30 at 3:34 p.m. EDT, or 19:34 UTC and closes at 5:58 p.m. EDT, or 21:58 UTC.

A backup launch window opens on Tuesday, October 31 at 3:34 p.m. EDT, or 19:34 UTC and closes at 5:58 p.m. EDT, or 21:58 UTC

10:34 / 22:34 it certainly ain't!

Could be a typing error for 19:34 UCT substituting a 0 for the 9 (they are side-by-side on a laptop keyboards) ?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Bargemanos on 10/30/2017 09:10 AM
SpaceX photos

Wings and extra hold down clamps for FH?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Danny452 on 10/30/2017 11:09 AM
In the SpaceX photos on the updates thread there is a band around the left landing leg but not around the right one.  Why the difference between legs?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: old_sellsword on 10/30/2017 11:11 AM
In the SpaceX photos on the updates thread there is a band around the left landing leg but not around the right one.  Why the difference between legs?

Just grey paint that completes the “X” in SpaceX.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Danny452 on 10/30/2017 11:55 AM
In the SpaceX photos on the updates thread there is a band around the left landing leg but not around the right one.  Why the difference between legs?

Just grey paint that completes the “X” in SpaceX.
I think you are looking at a different photo.  I've cropped the legs and show them here.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: old_sellsword on 10/30/2017 12:02 PM
In the SpaceX photos on the updates thread there is a band around the left landing leg but not around the right one.  Why the difference between legs?

Just grey paint that completes the “X” in SpaceX.
I think you are looking at a different photo.  I've cropped the legs and show them here.

I’m not, see this angle.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Danny452 on 10/30/2017 12:08 PM
In the SpaceX photos on the updates thread there is a band around the left landing leg but not around the right one.  Why the difference between legs?

Just grey paint that completes the “X” in SpaceX.
I think you are looking at a different photo.  I've cropped the legs and show them here.

I’m not, see this angle.
Thanks, that photo makes it clear that it's just paint.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: abaddon on 10/30/2017 01:49 PM
My (quick and dirty) paint job of what F9 might look like on 39-A when the RSS is gone.

Credit for the beautiful original photo: https://twitter.com/Mike_Seeley/status/924965790318841856
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ZachS09 on 10/30/2017 02:01 PM
My (quick and dirty) paint job of what F9 might look like on 39-A when the RSS is gone.

Credit for the beautiful original photo: https://twitter.com/Mike_Seeley/status/924965790318841856

Wow. Now that would be hard to get over once the RSS is completely gone.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: gongora on 10/30/2017 04:34 PM
Tweet from Math Sundin (https://twitter.com/MathSundin/status/879744603884322816)
Quote
RUAG Space puts one ping pong ball in for every launch they are part of. @SpaceX designed their own and sent 500. @elonmusk

One more ball for the SpaceX tube (assuming all goes well):

Quote
Tweet from Peter Guggenback (https://twitter.com/PeterGuggenbach/status/925041758517547009):
#KoreaSat5A equipped with our Ku-band #antennas for telemetry, tracking & command. To a successful launch! #RUAGSpace #Falcon9
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: gongora on 10/30/2017 06:31 PM
Payload is about 3700kg.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: DreamyPickle on 10/30/2017 06:31 PM
Quote
Thales Alenia Spaas!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: whitelancer64 on 10/30/2017 06:32 PM
Fairing boat confirmed!!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: abaddon on 10/30/2017 06:44 PM
Maybe time to use the fire extinguishers guys...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Rei on 10/30/2017 06:46 PM
Seriously, is that thing actually okay?  My experience with aluminum and fire is that the aluminum doesn't last very long....
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: DanielW on 10/30/2017 06:46 PM
Looked a little worse than usual. I am not sure there wasn't structural damage. looked like fire was running up the side.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: HVM on 10/30/2017 06:47 PM
Missing most of the access panels and SPAM. Can see through octoweb to the engines... e.g Y-wing setup of Rebels.

The second look show, that it was just a extra fire up on the stage, no missing panels.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 10/30/2017 06:48 PM
Do we know what the approximate orbital parameters will be for the GTO?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: FinalFrontier on 10/30/2017 06:48 PM
Looks like one engine is mangled
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: abaddon on 10/30/2017 06:48 PM
Definitely seems worse than usual.  Going to go out on a limb and say this stage is unlikely to fly again, assuming they do manage to recover it intact.  Hopefully some good lessons learned from this and the RP-1 leak following the previous landing.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: wannamoonbase on 10/30/2017 06:49 PM
That is one crispy bird 🦅

It will be interesting to see how Block 5’s manage these GTO missions.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 10/30/2017 06:50 PM
I find it interesting listening in to the off-camera audible responses of the SpaceXers in the company cafeteria. :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: JesseD on 10/30/2017 06:51 PM
T+7:00 - 7:05, you can see the toastiness beginning, just after the engine shutdown was called out...unless that's the grid fin on fire?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ugordan on 10/30/2017 06:52 PM
Seriously, is that thing actually okay? 

I find it fascinating how people stress over a bit of flame on the booster when the reentry environment it just went through was likely much worse, both in thermal and dynamic pressure respects.

Why, until the flight before this one we didn't even get to see the "ominous" sparks flying off the vehicle after the reentry burn. And logic mandates that if we didn't see it on earlier flights, it didn't happen. /s
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lar on 10/30/2017 06:52 PM
was this a planned "push the envelope" reentry? If so, that the stage is worse for wear and tear isn't necessarily bad.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Joffan on 10/30/2017 06:53 PM
I find it interesting listening in to the off-camera audible responses of the SpaceXers in the company cafeteria. :)
Yes, interesting, but usually very ambiguous gasps and groans. Still fun to hear the level of excitement.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 10/30/2017 06:53 PM
I find it interesting listening in to the off-camera audible responses of the SpaceXers in the company cafeteria. :)

Agree - they definitely have an un-curated access to the live feed. That second "oooh!" followed by laughter must have been in response to something quite interesting!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: cscott on 10/30/2017 06:56 PM
My guess is they saw the fire suppression activate.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Joffan on 10/30/2017 06:56 PM
was this a planned "push the envelope" reentry? If so, that the stage is worse for wear and tear isn't necessarily bad.

It was another ballistic-to-reentry flight (no early boostback/targeting burn), which do seem to be hard landings, although they used the 30-second landing burn. Perhaps the constraint is to choose whether to have a target burn or a softwer landing burn.

Also, the drone-ship was bouncing around a bit, which might be another variable to worry about.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: abaddon on 10/30/2017 06:58 PM
My guess is they saw the fire suppression activate.
But it wasn't active when they cut to it, that I could see...?  So that seems unlikely.

I tend to doubt they would have cut the public feed to a booster that that "toasty" (has flames running up the side well past the base) if they had seen the video first, but who knows.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: abaddon on 10/30/2017 07:01 PM
1st stage looking much better now  8)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: leetdan on 10/30/2017 07:02 PM
My 2 cents, it seemed the deck was pitching more than on previous landings.  Thanks, Philippe!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: andrewsdanj on 10/30/2017 07:02 PM
The deck's a'smoking, but the first stage lives!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: cppetrie on 10/30/2017 07:05 PM
Looks like there is plenty of clearance between engine bells and the drone ship. None of the bells look notably damaged from what can be seen now that the fire is out.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Rei on 10/30/2017 07:05 PM
I find it fascinating how people stress over a bit of flame on the booster when the reentry environment it just went through was likely much worse, both in thermal and dynamic pressure respects.

*Huge* difference between controlled and uncontrolled heating.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: RoboGoofers on 10/30/2017 07:06 PM
Why don't they have sprinklers running prior to the landing burn? would it interfere with altimeter readings? do they want clearer video? environmental regulations re: washing fuel overboard?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ugordan on 10/30/2017 07:07 PM
I find it fascinating how people stress over a bit of flame on the booster when the reentry environment it just went through was likely much worse, both in thermal and dynamic pressure respects.

*Huge* difference between controlled and uncontrolled heating.

Do tell.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: jpo234 on 10/30/2017 07:07 PM
Question: before the second ignition of the second stage engine the feed shows what seems to be a lot of particles flying around. What is this?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars-J on 10/30/2017 07:08 PM
The SpaceX steamroller continues! :D

With the level of armchair fault nitpicking that always follows these threads, I’m frankly surprised that SpaceX bothers with a stream at all.

If you wonder why SpaceX is less open these days with images and video, look in the mirror.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ugordan on 10/30/2017 07:09 PM
Question: before the second ignition of the second stage engine the feed shows what seems to be a lot of particles flying around. What is this?

Ice. Possibly oxygen ice.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: dodo on 10/30/2017 07:09 PM
I may be a bit out of the loop here, but how often has SpaceX launched a payload to GTO with a returning first stage?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: lrk on 10/30/2017 07:10 PM
Did the livestream just end?  ???
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Joffan on 10/30/2017 07:11 PM
Did anyone else lose most of the deployment there? Think someone hit the wrong button there at SpaceX...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ugordan on 10/30/2017 07:11 PM
I may be a bit out of the loop here, but how often has SpaceX launched a payload to GTO with a returning first stage?

Most of the launches with the v1.2 or whatchamacallit F9 version, actually. Only a few have been expendable.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ugordan on 10/30/2017 07:12 PM
Did anyone else lose most of the deployment there?

Yeah, me too.

Oh well, all's well that ends well.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: abaddon on 10/30/2017 07:12 PM
Did anyone else lose most of the deployment there?

Yeah, me too.
Same here.  Was viewing with youtube FWIW.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Thorny on 10/30/2017 07:14 PM
I may be a bit out of the loop here, but how often has SpaceX launched a payload to GTO with a returning first stage?

I think this was the seventh. JCSAT-14, THAICOM-8, JCSAT-16, SES-10, BULGARIASAT-1, SES-11, and now KOREASAT 5A.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: cscott on 10/30/2017 07:15 PM
Question: before the second ignition of the second stage engine the feed shows what seems to be a lot of particles flying around. What is this?

Ice. Possibly oxygen ice.
In an earlier webcast the bigger chunks were explicitly noted as oxygen ice.

The engine shutdown sequence purges the oxidizer lines, and a bunch of that purged o2 mist seems to freeze and hang around, to be shaken loose again during the restart sequence.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: nicp on 10/30/2017 07:18 PM
I believe it is oxygen ice because - as noted - a previous commentary described it as such.
Even so, I thought solid (and liquid) oxygen was a bit blue.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ugordan on 10/30/2017 07:21 PM
Even so, I thought solid (and liquid) oxygen was a bit blue.

Never trust the automatic white balance of the camera.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: llanitedave on 10/30/2017 07:22 PM
The SpaceX steamroller continues! :D

With the level of armchair fault nitpicking that always follows these threads, I’m frankly surprised that SpaceX bothers with a stream at all.

If you wonder why SpaceX is less open these days with images and video, look in the mirror.


I'm looking at China.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lar on 10/30/2017 07:25 PM
I may be a bit out of the loop here, but how often has SpaceX launched a payload to GTO with a returning first stage?

Since they started landing stages reliably,many of their flights have been to GTO and all but three returned. The launch log will be a good resource for you, as I am working from memory.

(and got ninja'ed to boot.. well this makes up for it, they all didn't give the link....

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40544.0

)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: RotoSequence on 10/30/2017 07:26 PM
So, is this two post-flight kerosene fires in a row? Seems like there's some sort of anomaly in the design if that's the case.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: cscott on 10/30/2017 07:28 PM
So, is this two post-flight kerosene fires in a row? Seems like there's some sort of anomaly in the design if that's the case.
Well, the previous one was technically a deliberately-set TEA/TEB fire (albeit w/ unintended consequences), so I think it's a bit early to start claiming commonality.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: gongora on 10/30/2017 07:29 PM
I may be a bit out of the loop here, but how often has SpaceX launched a payload to GTO with a returning first stage?

Since they started landing stages reliably, most of their flights have been to GTO and all but three returned. The launch log will be a good resource for you, as I am working from memory.

(and got ninja'ed to boot.. well this makes up for it, they all didn't give the link....

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40544.0

)

Majority of flights still to LEO this year, but 7 GTO launches with maybe one more to go in 2017 ain't bad.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ugordan on 10/30/2017 07:30 PM
So, is this two post-flight kerosene fires in a row?

Yes, well, after you explain how said kerosene was deposited onto the side tankage of the booster.

Jeff Bezos must be ecstatic at these landing "failures".

n.b. I'm not a SpaceX apologist, my snark is aimed toward realizing that stage landings are still "experimental" and that "stuff" can be expected to happen post landing.

Personally, I'm still reeling from the fact that GTO-launch stages are not completely lost. 2013/2014 seems like so long ago...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: whitelancer64 on 10/30/2017 07:32 PM
I may be a bit out of the loop here, but how often has SpaceX launched a payload to GTO with a returning first stage?

SpaceX has attempted to land a GTO mission's booster 9 times with 7 successful landings. There were also 3 GTO launches with no recovery attempts. I'm not counting Amos-6, which would have been to GTO.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 10/30/2017 07:33 PM
Congrats to SpaceX and KoreaSat!

(Steamroller noises)

Instead of the 1970's Cincinnati Reds "Big Red Machine"...
https://www.cincinnati.com/picture-gallery/sports/mlb/2014/03/03/photos-the-big-red-machine/5975103/

What do you think of the SpaceX "Big Blue Machine"?

(The color would also match the livery of the LA Dodgers, with SpaceX HQ in Hawthorne.)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: leetdan on 10/30/2017 07:40 PM
 
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40544.0

The important thing is, we now have a good footnote for the log to go with this otherwise-routine launch.  8)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 10/30/2017 07:41 PM
As is often the case, I think Eric Berger nicely puts this flight into context:

Quote
SpaceX is about to go for its 16th successful launch attempt of the year 2017. Previous record for any year: Eight.
https://twitter.com/sciguyspace/status/925082506034114560

Quote
Another aspect of this launch. Previously, a lot of SpaceX launches were US government. This year, 11 of 16 have been commercial.
https://twitter.com/sciguyspace/status/925083923624943616

Quote
SpaceX has now landed more rockets (19) in less than two years than all of the Apollo and Skylab crew launches from 1968 to 1975.
https://twitter.com/sciguyspace/status/925087543976218626

(Yes, I know the comparison is hardly like for like!)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: envy887 on 10/30/2017 07:47 PM
Anyone know the target orbit parameters?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: AncientU on 10/30/2017 07:48 PM
So, is this two post-flight kerosene fires in a row? Seems like there's some sort of anomaly in the design if that's the case.

Right. If they dumped them in the ocean, fires wouldn't break out after landing.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: saliva_sweet on 10/30/2017 07:56 PM
Quote
SpaceX has now landed more rockets (19) in less than two years than all of the Apollo and Skylab crew launches from 1968 to 1975.
https://twitter.com/sciguyspace/status/925087543976218626

(Yes, I know the comparison is hardly like for like!)

How about - only Russia has launched more rockets this year than SpaceX has landed?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: RotoSequence on 10/30/2017 08:15 PM
So, is this two post-flight kerosene fires in a row? Seems like there's some sort of anomaly in the design if that's the case.

Right. If they dumped them in the ocean, fires wouldn't break out after landing.

 ???

SpaceX might have a design issue to work out on disposing of Kerosene after flight, since this behavior is new as of the last two flights and has happened on both of them. It's not an accusation or a claim against the validity of booster recovery. Those who claim otherwise should be ashamed of themselves.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: alang on 10/30/2017 08:23 PM
So, is this two post-flight kerosene fires in a row? Seems like there's some sort of anomaly in the design if that's the case.

Right. If they dumped them in the ocean, fires wouldn't break out after landing.

 ???

SpaceX might have a design issue to work out on disposing of Kerosene after flight, since this behavior is new as of the last two flights and has happened on both of them. It's not an accusation or a claim against the validity of booster recovery. Those who claim otherwise should be ashamed of themselves.

Perhaps the only thing that has changed is performance and they have more RP1 left.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Mike_1179 on 10/30/2017 08:34 PM
Or it’s a known issue and it’s not worth “fixing” because a block 3 stage requires refurbishment anyway.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: vanoord on 10/30/2017 08:47 PM
Or it’s a known issue and it’s not worth “fixing” because a block 3 stage requires refurbishment anyway.

This is a block 4 core?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: AncientU on 10/30/2017 08:51 PM
So, is this two post-flight kerosene fires in a row? Seems like there's some sort of anomaly in the design if that's the case.

Right. If they dumped them in the ocean, fires wouldn't break out after landing.

 ???

SpaceX might have a design issue to work out on disposing of Kerosene after flight, since this behavior is new as of the last two flights and has happened on both of them. It's not an accusation or a claim against the validity of booster recovery. Those who claim otherwise should be ashamed of themselves.

You make a good point -- I shouldn't have been quite so snarky.  Yet... jamin' a booster backwards through the atmosphere after a GTO launch, and landing it softly in the center of the bullseye in rough seas, even if the flamey end is still a bit flamey still boggles the imagination.  (The glass is 97% full, not 3% below the rim.)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 10/30/2017 09:04 PM
I'm wondering if they're deliberately trying higher and higher energy descents and landings in an attempt to find out just how far they can push these cores before they can't be recovered. Given that they're getting quite a stockpile of used cores now, they can afford to waste them on empirical data-gathering exercises like this by deliberately exposing them to stresses that may make them unreusable.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lar on 10/30/2017 09:07 PM
I'm wondering if they're deliberately trying higher and higher energy descents and landings in an attempt to find out just how far they can push these cores before they can't be recovered. Given that they're getting quite a stockpile of used cores now, they can afford to waste them on empirical data-gathering exercises like this by deliberately exposing them to stresses that may make them unreusable.

My thought as well, see above

was this a planned "push the envelope" reentry? If so, that the stage is worse for wear and tear isn't necessarily bad.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Lars-J on 10/30/2017 09:32 PM
So, is this two post-flight kerosene fires in a row? Seems like there's some sort of anomaly in the design if that's the case.

Right. If they dumped them in the ocean, fires wouldn't break out after landing.

 ???

SpaceX might have a design issue to work out on disposing of Kerosene after flight, since this behavior is new as of the last two flights and has happened on both of them. It's not an accusation or a claim against the validity of booster recovery. Those who claim otherwise should be ashamed of themselves.

Sure... But the whole trend of "do I get a cookie if I'm the first one who spots a problem"-posts is just a tad obsessive. Do they think that SpaceX is unaware or blind to the issue unless you point it out?

And then people start rushing in to post about problems they imagine, just so they can be "first" to spot a problem, just in case. Is the core bent? Is there a buckle? Is a leg damaged? Is the an engine bell damaged? These are all examples from the last year, BTW... When the specific concerns turned out to be false.

The kerosene fire is obviously not normal, but people do take that to the N'th degree as well.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: AncientU on 10/30/2017 10:54 PM
A kerosene fire at that end is normal... usually a few million times as intense.

'A bit toasty' as the announcer stated is sufficient level of 'concern.'
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ZachS09 on 10/30/2017 10:58 PM
Having arrived at one of Embry-Riddle University's observation decks at 3:00 PM, I stayed there for over a half-hour while the 44th Falcon 9 rocket launched the Koreasat 5A satellite 48 miles away from where I stood.

I'll just let the video below explain itself.

Also took a couple photos of the aftermath.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6by5uxac3o
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: abaddon on 10/30/2017 11:05 PM
Sure... But the whole trend of "do I get a cookie if I'm the first one who spots a problem"-posts is just a tad obsessive. Do they think that SpaceX is unaware or blind to the issue unless you point it out?

And then people start rushing in to post about problems they imagine, just so they can be "first" to spot a problem, just in case. Is the core bent? Is there a buckle? Is a leg damaged? Is the an engine bell damaged? These are all examples from the last year, BTW... When the specific concerns turned out to be false.

The kerosene fire is obviously not normal, but people do take that to the N'th degree as well.
People are excited about launches, and there isn't any harm.  Frankly these (multiple) posts along these lines are disappointing and not at all conducive to a friendly forum atmosphere, due to the sarcastic/superior/hostile tone.

The irony is the posts you are complaining about would have been quickly buried and forgotten if they weren't dredged back up.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: macpacheco on 10/30/2017 11:58 PM
Do we know the target orbit ?
Could this have been a super sync and/or substantial reduction in inclination that would use something similar to a typical 5+ ton to GTO launch performance ?
That could explain the type of landing performed.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: cppetrie on 10/31/2017 12:03 AM
Do we know the target orbit ?
Could this have been a super sync and/or substantial reduction in inclination that would use something similar to a typical 5+ ton to GTO launch performance ?
That could explain the type of landing performed.
Quote
Tweet from Jonathan McDowell (https://twitter.com/planet4589/status/925127539131060225):
Mugunghwa-5A (Koreasat-5A) and Falcon 9-45 Stage 2 tracked in 285 x 50185 km x 22.0 deg supersync transfer orbit, confirming launch success
Don’t know what the target was, but this is what was achieved.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: gongora on 10/31/2017 12:19 AM
Payload is about 3700kg.
What is the source of this number?  Thales own press release presented earlier in this thread says 3,500 kg.

 - Ed Kyle

That's what the announcer said during the webcast.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Thorny on 10/31/2017 12:29 AM
Payload is about 3700kg.
What is the source of this number?  Thales own press release presented earlier in this thread says 3,500 kg.

SpaceX launch webcast today. At about the T-6:00 mark.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: kdhilliard on 10/31/2017 12:54 AM
Fairing boat confirmed!!

From the webcast @10:51 (T-3:08):
Quote
Our fairing boat is, ... our, our drone ship is out in the sea three hundred forty nautical miles, go for today's launch.

Loose lips reveal ships.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: LouScheffer on 10/31/2017 12:56 AM

Quote
Tweet from Jonathan McDowell (https://twitter.com/planet4589/status/925127539131060225):
Mugunghwa-5A (Koreasat-5A) and Falcon 9-45 Stage 2 tracked in 285 x 50185 km x 22.0 deg supersync transfer orbit, confirming launch success
Don’t know what the target was, but this is what was achieved.
That's about 1617 m/s to GEO, by my estimation.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: LouScheffer on 10/31/2017 01:02 AM

Sure... But the whole trend of "do I get a cookie if I'm the first one who spots a problem"-posts is just a tad obsessive. Do they think that SpaceX is unaware or blind to the issue unless you point it out?

And then people start rushing in to post about problems they imagine, just so they can be "first" to spot a problem, just in case. Is the core bent? Is there a buckle? Is a leg damaged? Is the an engine bell damaged? These are all examples from the last year, BTW... When the specific concerns turned out to be false.

The kerosene fire is obviously not normal, but people do take that to the N'th degree as well.

You can remember this quote from Theodore Roosevelt:
Quote
“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: catdlr on 10/31/2017 02:03 AM
Having arrived at one of Embry-Riddle University's observation decks at 3:00 PM, I stayed there for over a half-hour while the 44th Falcon 9 rocket launched the Koreasat 5A satellite 48 miles away from where I stood.

Also took a couple photos of the aftermath.


Here is a video of the same smoke/vapor trail.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emA2v4ihez0?t=001

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emA2v4ihez0
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Treasurer on 10/31/2017 06:24 AM
Falcon firestarter  :)
http://coub.com/view/z2sci (http://coub.com/view/z2sci)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: woods170 on 10/31/2017 06:58 AM
I'm wondering if they're deliberately trying higher and higher energy descents and landings in an attempt to find out just how far they can push these cores before they can't be recovered. Given that they're getting quite a stockpile of used cores now, they can afford to waste them on empirical data-gathering exercises like this by deliberately exposing them to stresses that may make them unreusable.

My thought as well, see above

was this a planned "push the envelope" reentry? If so, that the stage is worse for wear and tear isn't necessarily bad.
It is in fact exactly what SpaceX has been doing on recent launches. There are multiple reasons for this but gaining flight-knowledge on "sideways" reentry of a rocket body is the main driver. The keywords here are BFR and BFS.
SpaceX can actually afford to lose a booster stage during those reentry experiments. The current booster stages are Block 4 and will be phased-out in favor of Block 5 in the near future. And there is the fact that SpaceX now has so many recovered booster stages in storage that they have even begun scrapping some of them for lack of available re-flight opportunities.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ugordan on 10/31/2017 07:22 AM
There are multiple reasons for this but gaining flight-knowledge on "sideways" reentry of a rocket body is the main driver.

If that's the case, wouldn't it make more sense to utilize titanium grid fins instead since they have greater control authority and would allow for even higher angles of attack?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: JamesH65 on 10/31/2017 07:40 AM
There are multiple reasons for this but gaining flight-knowledge on "sideways" reentry of a rocket body is the main driver.

If that's the case, wouldn't it make more sense to utilize titanium grid fins instead since they have greater control authority and would allow for even higher angles of attack?

I reckon those Ti fins are VERY expensive, so they might not want to risk losing them if they don't need to.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ugordan on 10/31/2017 07:42 AM
There are multiple reasons for this but gaining flight-knowledge on "sideways" reentry of a rocket body is the main driver.

If that's the case, wouldn't it make more sense to utilize titanium grid fins instead since they have greater control authority and would allow for even higher angles of attack?

I reckon those Ti fins are VERY expensive, so they might not want to risk losing them if they don't need to.

Perhaps, but so are the stages themselves and they are apparently willing to risk losing them.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 10/31/2017 08:24 AM
Payload is about 3700kg.
What is the source of this number?  Thales own press release presented earlier in this thread says 3,500 kg.

SpaceX launch webcast today. At about the T-6:00 mark.

Just to prove the announcer didn’t misspeak, Thales’ post launch press release also says 3,700 kg:
https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-release/another-thales-alenia-space-built-satellite-now-orbit# (https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-release/another-thales-alenia-space-built-satellite-now-orbit#)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: saliva_sweet on 10/31/2017 08:50 AM
Payload is about 3700kg.
What is the source of this number?  Thales own press release presented earlier in this thread says 3,500 kg.

SpaceX launch webcast today. At about the T-6:00 mark.

Just to prove the announcer didn’t misspeak, Thales’ post launch press release also says 3,700 kg:
https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-release/another-thales-alenia-space-built-satellite-now-orbit# (https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-release/another-thales-alenia-space-built-satellite-now-orbit#)

This is great. I was so annoyed at having two conflicting official numbers.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: aameise9 on 10/31/2017 09:18 AM
Does anyone know what happens to second stage?  Can it be deorbited?

(Apologies if I missed previous discussion of this issue.)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 10/31/2017 09:28 AM
The second stage is in a super geosynchronous transfer orbit (SGTO). Perturbations by the Moon will soon decrease the stage's perigee and send it back into Earth's atmosphere where it will burn up.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: OneSpeed on 10/31/2017 11:16 AM
There are multiple reasons for this but gaining flight-knowledge on "sideways" reentry of a rocket body is the main driver.

If that's the case, wouldn't it make more sense to utilize titanium grid fins instead since they have greater control authority and would allow for even higher angles of attack?

The Ti fins do have greater control authority, but the 'bear trap' leading edge actually reduces drag. Perhaps SpaceX have been re-thinking that aspect of the design?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Rocket Science on 10/31/2017 01:20 PM
Interesting to read the comments from observations of Falcon post landing aboard OCISLY. I see a successful primary mission, a recovered stage with an easily accessible set of new engineering data points...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Brian45 on 10/31/2017 01:34 PM
Any word on the fairing recovery? There was mention early in this discussion about the Mr. Stephen (?) possibly attempting recovery of the fairing, but that seems to have dropped off the radar.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: LaunchedIn68 on 10/31/2017 03:44 PM

Sure... But the whole trend of "do I get a cookie if I'm the first one who spots a problem"-posts is just a tad obsessive. Do they think that SpaceX is unaware or blind to the issue unless you point it out?

And then people start rushing in to post about problems they imagine, just so they can be "first" to spot a problem, just in case. Is the core bent? Is there a buckle? Is a leg damaged? Is the an engine bell damaged? These are all examples from the last year, BTW... When the specific concerns turned out to be false.

The kerosene fire is obviously not normal, but people do take that to the N'th degree as well.

Gentlemen,

You can't discuss things like this here, this is a DISCUSSION thread!  ??? ::)

Edit/Lar; fixed quotes. But seriously, this IS a discussion thread, not the party thread so let's not get to carried away with Dr Strangelove pastiches OK???
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: LouScheffer on 10/31/2017 04:32 PM

Quote
Tweet from Jonathan McDowell (https://twitter.com/planet4589/status/925127539131060225):
Mugunghwa-5A (Koreasat-5A) and Falcon 9-45 Stage 2 tracked in 285 x 50185 km x 22.0 deg supersync transfer orbit, confirming launch success
Don’t know what the target was, but this is what was achieved.
That's about 1617 m/s to GEO, by my estimation.
My original estimate is a little too high.   It's better to do some of the inclination reduction with each burn.  A better sequence is:
Burn at apogee into orbit = 35786  by  50185  by  1.0   degrees.   Costs 1386.7 m/s
Burn at perigee into a GEO orbit, 35786  by  35786  by  0  degrees.  Costs 223.6 m/s
For a total of 1610.3 m/s, saving an additional 7 m/s.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Rocket Science on 10/31/2017 04:40 PM
Some folks just need to lighten up when it comes to any critique of SpaceX even if positive... ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAeqVGP-GPM
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: cscott on 10/31/2017 04:41 PM
Any word on the fairing recovery? There was mention early in this discussion about the Mr. Stephen (?) possibly attempting recovery of the fairing, but that seems to have dropped off the radar.
We generally hear very little directly about fairing recovery.  Your best bet is to watch the ASDS threads here; we sometimes get photos of the support ships when they return to port, and occasionally they will have suggestively-tarped bits on deck.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: cscott on 10/31/2017 04:46 PM


There are multiple reasons for this but gaining flight-knowledge on "sideways" reentry of a rocket body is the main driver.

If that's the case, wouldn't it make more sense to utilize titanium grid fins instead since they have greater control authority and would allow for even higher angles of attack?

The Ti fins do have greater control authority, but the 'bear trap' leading edge actually reduces drag. Perhaps SpaceX have been re-thinking that aspect of the design?

Perhaps they've figured out how to get higher angles of attack with the Alu fins, and/or found a better thermal protection mechanism for them.  Or they want apples-to-apples comparisons of various reflight profiles so they are having Alu fins for all of a given test set.

Lots of possible reasons (other than the obvious one, cost).  OneSpeed suggested that the Alu fins might be higher-drag, which could be advantageous for whatever data they are trying to collect.  I'm sure other posters here could probably come up with more possibilities.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: JamesH65 on 11/01/2017 11:54 AM
There are multiple reasons for this but gaining flight-knowledge on "sideways" reentry of a rocket body is the main driver.

If that's the case, wouldn't it make more sense to utilize titanium grid fins instead since they have greater control authority and would allow for even higher angles of attack?

I reckon those Ti fins are VERY expensive, so they might not want to risk losing them if they don't need to.

Perhaps, but so are the stages themselves and they are apparently willing to risk losing them.

But if  they KNOW that they might lose the stage, why use the expensive grid fins? Keep those for landings they are confident about.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Robotbeat on 11/01/2017 12:18 PM
It's possible the titanium fins allow much greater body lift (this has been hinted at), but that that requires modifications to the structure of the booster we won't see until Block 5.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: cscott on 11/01/2017 12:57 PM
It's possible the titanium fins allow much greater body lift (this has been hinted at), but that that requires modifications to the structure of the booster we won't see until Block 5.
Elon mentioned FH required strengthening the booster, so given SpaceX's preference for commonality it would make sense for the stronger components to be part of block 5.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: cuddihy on 11/01/2017 01:48 PM
That appears he was talking about the core FH booster. They're using refurbished F9 boosters for the demo side boosters I thought, those would be block IV at best.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jarnis on 11/01/2017 01:52 PM
That appears he was talking about the core FH booster. They're using refurbished F9 boosters for the demo side boosters I thought, those would be block IV at best.

Both are Block 3 vintage, with some obvious mods.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: intrepidpursuit on 11/02/2017 03:19 AM
It's possible the titanium fins allow much greater body lift (this has been hinted at), but that that requires modifications to the structure of the booster we won't see until Block 5.
Elon mentioned FH required strengthening the booster, so given SpaceX's preference for commonality it would make sense for the stronger components to be part of block 5.

They've said previously that the FH core stage is a unique structure and that the boosters are structurally the same as a regular F9 core. I would guess that adding the extra weight to all the stages would have a significant enough performance and cost penalty that the best path is to have two similar types rather than a single one.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: deruch on 11/02/2017 07:00 PM
The second stage is in a super geosynchronous transfer orbit (SGTO). Perturbations by the Moon will soon decrease the stage's perigee and send it back into Earth's atmosphere where it will burn up.
 
Alternatively, could the lunar perturbations raise the perigee resulting in an orbit that would take much longer to decay?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: 192 on 11/02/2017 09:44 PM
The second stage is in a super geosynchronous transfer orbit (SGTO). Perturbations by the Moon will soon decrease the stage's perigee and send it back into Earth's atmosphere where it will burn up.
 
Alternatively, could the lunar perturbations raise the perigee resulting in an orbit that would take much longer to decay?

Yes, but then it will soon be perturbed again, whereas if it is lowered significantly the apogee rapidly lowers and it is safe from further perturbation by the moon. The perigee wonders around due to these perturbations until it goes low enough that the stage rapidly deorbits.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 11/03/2017 12:29 PM
Apologies if this is old, but the KoreaSat 5 S1 leg attachments look different from what I’ve noticed before (circled in attached).

(Great phot from @NASA_Nate posted here (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43901.msg1745409#msg1745409))
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: king1999 on 11/03/2017 12:45 PM
Quote
Crews are busy disconnecting the landing legs of the Falcon Booster.

https://twitter.com/NASA_Nerd/status/926434319006158848 (https://twitter.com/NASA_Nerd/status/926434319006158848)
From the images it looks like the post-landing fire damage is superficial at best.
Do you mean “at worst”?
Depending on whether you are from the Old Space or the New Space  ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Shanuson on 11/03/2017 01:20 PM

Quote
Crews are busy disconnecting the landing legs of the Falcon Booster.

https://twitter.com/NASA_Nerd/status/926434319006158848 (https://twitter.com/NASA_Nerd/status/926434319006158848)
From the images it looks like the post-landing fire damage is superficial at best.
Do you mean “at worst”?
Actually at best is right. We see there is superficial damage. So at best it is only superficial, there could be more damage we don't see which would be worse.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: guckyfan on 11/03/2017 01:36 PM
English is not my first language. But I interpret "at best" as the best case. It implies to me it may well be quite bad.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Mike_1179 on 11/03/2017 03:17 PM
Or, more likely, the fuel came from the engines and flames merely crept up the side of the vehicle, essentially driven to that side by the wind.


Is there cork insulation on that portion of the booster?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: ugordan on 11/03/2017 03:24 PM
Could there have been a leak there, or do propellant lines even pass through that set of connections?  Or, more likely, the fuel came from the engines and flames merely crept up the side of the vehicle, essentially driven to that side by the wind.

It looks to me like the leak was coming from the rightmost engine visible in the webcast, a fluid catching fire as it exited the nozzle.

Also, if the leak happened before landing, the airstream might have forced some up the side of the booster, explaining why it caught fire like that.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Comga on 11/03/2017 08:10 PM
The fire appears to have been on the side where the, what is it called, T-0 or ground umbilical was located.  Could there have been a leak there, or do propellant lines even pass through that set of connections?  Or, more likely, the fuel came from the engines and flames merely crept up the side of the vehicle, essentially driven to that side by the wind.

 - Ed Kyle

From other photos of the first stage on the ASDS, it looks like the fire was alongside the cable tunnel.
The image in this post is of that side of the first stage:
Maybe we can brighten it up and see if anything is visible in all the dark soot.

Quote
At least one landing leg has been removed from the Falcon 9 Booster

https://twitter.com/nasa_nerd/status/926507819406422016 (https://twitter.com/nasa_nerd/status/926507819406422016)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: envy887 on 11/04/2017 12:59 AM
Apologies if this is old, but the KoreaSat 5 S1 leg attachments look different from what I’ve noticed before (circled in attached).

(Great phot from @NASA_Nate posted here (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43901.msg1745409#msg1745409))

Looks the same as CRS-8, the first recovered booster.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/IQaVGSguJ0M/maxresdefault.jpg
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: cscott on 11/04/2017 11:22 PM
Some dark sooted spots on deck from the post-landing fire.  What's with the rust-colored streak?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Wolfram66 on 11/05/2017 12:55 AM
Some dark sooted spots on deck from the post-landing fire.  What's with the rust-colored streak?

Anyone know what the fire suppression system entails? Water and RP-1 don’t exactly mix. Is it fresh water and foam to deal with petroleum fires?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 11/05/2017 01:38 AM
Some dark sooted spots on deck from the post-landing fire.  What's with the rust-colored streak?

Anyone know what the fire suppression system entails? Water and RP-1 don’t exactly mix. Is it fresh water and foam to deal with petroleum fires?

I have no special knowledge of what SpaceX is using, but typically MIL-spec fluoroprotein-based aqueous film-forming firefighting foams are used to fight petroleum-based fires. They can be mixed just as well with seawater as freshwater, which makes them a good choice for firefighting at sea.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : UPDATES
Post by: Skylab on 11/08/2017 12:34 PM
Quote
Slower vehicles please keep to the left....
Could someone point out where this shot would've been taken? Thanks!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Machdiamond on 11/08/2017 01:48 PM

https://twitter.com/bob_richards/status/927967920185016321

Quote
Slower vehicles please keep to the left....
Could someone point out where this shot would've been taken? Thanks!

Highway 401 just before the gate.
Title: Re: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : UPDATES
Post by: Michael Baylor on 11/08/2017 06:45 PM
Could someone point out where this shot would've been taken? Thanks!

It was somewhere along SR 401 near the Port. They make a right after exiting the Port, and the SR 401 takes them straight into CCAFS.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: gongora on 01/09/2018 04:55 PM
It looks like the most recent payload that would have been transported from Nice to Cape Canaveral for a SpaceX launch was Koreasat 5A?

[BOLLORÉ LOGISTICS] SATELLITE TRANSPORTATION FROM FRANCE TO CAPE CANAVERAL FOR SPACEX LAUNCH (http://www.bollore-logistics.com/en/Pages/NEWS/20180109_1.aspx)
Quote
January 9th, 2018

A large European Aerospace manufacturer recently entrusted Bolloré Logistics to handle the transport and logistics of its satellite for a SpaceX launch into outer space.

Close coordination between the Bolloré Logistics teams in Nice, Boston and Miami ensured that the complex mission of transporting the satellite along with Ground Service Equipment (GSE) from Nice, France to Cape Canaveral in Florida, US, was handled smoothly.

This high-risk operation included three crucial steps:

- The transport of the satellite and ground service equipment (GSE) by Antonov 124 from Nice to Cape Canaveral

with a brief stop in Boston for customs clearance where the Boston Import team worked closely with the Department of Homeland Security Port Supervisor to coordinate the customs entries.  At the arrival of the AN-124 in Cape Canaveral, the Miami team provided local logistics support on-site at Kennedy Space Center for offloading operations.

- The transport of the propellants by sea freight from Bremerhaven, Germany to Port Everglades, USA

The propellants were incorporated into the satellite before space launch. The Miami team handled the arrival at Port Everglades and transfer to the Kennedy Space Center.

- The return of the material after the satellite launch

The scope of work included stuffing of the containers, special road convoy with escort from Kennedy Space Center to Port of Miami, sea transport to return 90% of the material (including empty space craft containers) and air transport for urgent material return.

Bolloré Logistics has demonstrated their know-how and expertise to support such high-risk operation for the space industry in a high security environment and SpaceX successfully launched the satellite from the launch complex at NASA's Kennedy Space Center.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Comga on 01/11/2018 04:19 AM
It looks like the most recent payload that would have been transported from Nice to Cape Canaveral for a SpaceX launch was Koreasat 5A?

[BOLLORÉ LOGISTICS] SATELLITE TRANSPORTATION FROM FRANCE TO CAPE CANAVERAL FOR SPACEX LAUNCH (http://www.bollore-logistics.com/en/Pages/NEWS/20180109_1.aspx)
Quote
January 9th, 2018

A large European Aerospace manufacturer recently entrusted Bolloré Logistics to handle the transport and logistics of its satellite for a SpaceX launch into outer space.

Close coordination between the Bolloré Logistics teams in Nice, Boston and Miami ensured that the complex mission of transporting the satellite along with Ground Service Equipment (GSE) from Nice, France to Cape Canaveral in Florida, US, was handled smoothly.

This high-risk operation included three crucial steps:

- The transport of the satellite and ground service equipment (GSE) by Antonov 124 from Nice to Cape Canaveral

with a brief stop in Boston for customs clearance where the Boston Import team worked closely with the Department of Homeland Security Port Supervisor to coordinate the customs entries.  At the arrival of the AN-124 in Cape Canaveral, the Miami team provided local logistics support on-site at Kennedy Space Center for offloading operations.

- The transport of the propellants by sea freight from Bremerhaven, Germany to Port Everglades, USA

The propellants were incorporated into the satellite before space launch. The Miami team handled the arrival at Port Everglades and transfer to the Kennedy Space Center.

- The return of the material after the satellite launch

The scope of work included stuffing of the containers, special road convoy with escort from Kennedy Space Center to Port of Miami, sea transport to return 90% of the material (including empty space craft containers) and air transport for urgent material return.

Bolloré Logistics has demonstrated their know-how and expertise to support such high-risk operation for the space industry in a high security environment and SpaceX successfully launched the satellite from the launch complex at NASA's Kennedy Space Center.

What's that?
They shipped their own propellants from Bremerhaven, Germany to Ft Lauderdale, and then drove or sent them by rail three hours north?
They couldn't buy adequate propellant at the launch site?
And I thought importing water from Fiji was odd....

And then they drove the "stuffed" shipping containers and "urgent material" four hours back to Miami to ship back to Europe.
Really?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Jim on 01/11/2018 05:50 AM

What's that?
They shipped their own propellants from Bremerhaven, Germany to Ft Lauderdale, and then drove or sent them by rail three hours north?
They couldn't buy adequate propellant at the launch site?
And I thought importing water from Fiji was odd....

And then they drove the "stuffed" shipping containers and "urgent material" four hours back to Miami to ship back to Europe.
Really?

That is how hazardous material is shipped.  It is closest port that can handle the propellants.  JWST propellants will go out the same port to Kourou.

It is not unusual to not use US sources for propellants.  Spacex buys its propellant from Germany. 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: cscott on 01/11/2018 09:37 AM


It is not unusual to not use US sources for propellants.  Spacex buys its propellant from Germany.

Or of curiosity: which propellants? Presumably not the LOX and RP-1.  The Draco NTO or MMH? The TEA/TEB?

If JWST is shipping American hydrazine to Kourou while SpaceX is importing German hydrazine for Dragon, I'd be interested in learning some of the factors that go into those decisions (presumably not simply availability).
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Koreasat 5A : October 30 : DISCUSSION THREAD
Post by: Comga on 01/11/2018 03:28 PM

What's that?
They shipped their own propellants from Bremerhaven, Germany to Ft Lauderdale, and then drove or sent them by rail three hours north?
They couldn't buy adequate propellant at the launch site?
And I thought importing water from Fiji was odd....

And then they drove the "stuffed" shipping containers and "urgent material" four hours back to Miami to ship back to Europe.
Really?

That is how hazardous material is shipped.  It is closest port that can handle the propellants.  JWST propellants will go out the same port to Kourou.

It is not unusual to not use US sources for propellants.  Spacex buys its propellant from Germany. 

Thanks
When you say “propellant” are you referring to Hydrazine and NTO?
My guess would be that the RP-1 and LOX are indigenous.