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General Discussion => Polls Section => Topic started by: jongoff on 06/23/2016 11:49 PM

Title: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: jongoff on 06/23/2016 11:49 PM
I didn't see a poll to cover this already, so when do people think SpaceX will successfully launch its first Red Dragon mission to Mars?

Elon announced that they're shooting for the 2018 window, which according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploration_of_Mars#Launch_windows is less than two years out from now (if I'm reading that correctly). I've seen a range of opinions about how likely he was to make that window, and when he was likely to fly if he didn't make that window, but I wanted to gather the collective wisdom of NSF readers.

For purposes of this poll, assume that "successfully launch its first Red Dragon mission to Mars" means that a Red Dragon designed for Mars landing has been placed into mars transfer trajectory following a successful TMI burn. While I'm asking for opinions only on when it is first attempted, if you want to leave a comment about what you picked, why, and whether or not you think they'll pull off the EDL on the first attempt (and if not, when that'll happen), that would be very interesting.

I have the poll currently set to stay open for one month.

~Jon

[Moderators: If I'm blind and missed a similar poll, feel free to merge or delete this]

Edit/Lar: See also http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=37233, a different, but similar poll.
Title: Re: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: jongoff on 06/23/2016 11:53 PM
I'll go first. I personally don't think they'll make the 2018 window (I give them less than 30% chance), but I do think they'll make the 2020 window. This is a high priority for SpaceX, so I don't think "never" works. But it's always seemed as though the schedules in Elon's announcements make the most sense if you assume he's using Mars years instead of Earth years for how far in the future something will happen...

As for if they'll make EDL the first time? I'd give them better than even odds of pulling it off the first time. They've got a sharp team, and they'll analyze the crap out of it. And frankly, if JPL could land MSL and SpaceX could pull off some of their high-energy barge landings, I think their odds of making Supersonic Retropropulsion work the first time on Mars is reasonably good.

~Jon
Title: Re: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: Robotbeat on 06/24/2016 12:00 AM
I voted 2020 as well, but they still could have a decent, 40% chance of making it.
Title: Re: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: rpapo on 06/24/2016 12:02 AM
One must always attempt to compensate for Elon's time dilation factor...
Title: Re: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: Space Ghost 1962 on 06/24/2016 12:20 AM
What may be misunderstood about RD is that it is the pivot for SX to actually make Musk's circus acts suddenly have meaning, a purpose. The fan's get caught up in the "vision"/hallucination thing, the aerospace professionals, planetary scientists, SC engineers get caught up in the operational realities. Neither.

It's a goalpost. He'll do it because he has to use SX as a fulcrum to bend "all space" in the direction that allows him to know that he can reach his near term objectives (1. world launch provider 51%+ market with generic launch, 2. one or two 100% reusable BFR's that earn-out for 24 of 26 months, where 2 are spent solely with BFS missions, 3. BFS that operates on two planets). His ego isn't about things but changing the way the world works, where that suits eventually where he heads.

So ... he'll launch for 2018, and cross fingers.

Because even if he doesn't get 100% mission success, given what he's brought off, people will be certain that he'll have a greater chance than any government of reaching Mars with a HSF program eventually.

add: (missed part of Jon's request for comments)

what you picked:
  2018

why:
  believe, like with constant booster recovery, he "wins" irrespective of outcome by attempting the "impossible"
  "L'audace, l'audace, toujours l'audace."

whether or not you think they'll pull off the EDL on the first attempt:
  95% to cruise, 80% to EI, 75% to 75km, 66% to 100m, 50% to 0m, 10% full mission.

and if not, when that'll happen:
  second/third encounter
Title: Re: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: the_other_Doug on 06/24/2016 12:37 AM
I'd like to preface this with the caveat that we're talking about SpaceX here, and sometimes they do employ, shall we say, innovative development techniques.  But, that said...

I really can't believe that SpaceX would announce their intention to launch Red Dragon to Mars in the 2018 synod unless there was a complete, detailed design for the entire Red Dragon configuration (including all systems in the trunk) and for how that spacecraft will be operated and managed throughout its mission.  And I'd have to believe that metal is already being bent on the spacecraft that will be sent to Mars.

All of the intensive development and testing needed to build and fly the Red Dragon has really already been accomplished, what with the completion of the Dragonfly hover tests and the refinement of the Superdraco design to correct deficiencies encountered in the pad abort test.

Assuming there are no show-stoppers in getting the Falcon Heavy flying in time, I truly think SpaceX will have a vehicle ready to launch for the 2018 synod.

And if it fails, at least SpaceX will have learned something.  It may delay their first manned landing by a synod, but if the first Red Dragon fails, I would betcha the second one succeeds...
Title: Re: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: rcoppola on 06/24/2016 01:08 AM
With a star chart in one hand and roll of duct tape in another, come hell or high water, they will throw a Dragon to Mars in 2018.
Title: Re: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: david1971 on 06/24/2016 03:29 AM
Well, there's this poll:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=37233.0

Reporting my own post to the Mods...
Title: Re: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: jongoff on 06/24/2016 04:18 AM
I really can't believe that SpaceX would announce their intention to launch Red Dragon to Mars in the 2018 synod unless there was a complete, detailed design for the entire Red Dragon configuration (including all systems in the trunk) and for how that spacecraft will be operated and managed throughout its mission.  And I'd have to believe that metal is already being bent on the spacecraft that will be sent to Mars.

Heh, that's funny. You mean like how Elon only told his propulsion guys about how Merlin-1D was now going to be a 140klbf engine the day before his Falcon Heavy announcement? IIRC they had just come to tell Elon that they had managed to get the Merlin 1D test to a higher thrust than expected: ~124klbf.

And when has anything SpaceX proposed actually happened on time? Why do we expect this time it will be different? Was Falcon Heavy not important to Elon? Commercial Crew flights? Etc?

I actually think his idea of a regular milk-run to Mars is brilliant, I just think that people who believe this time will be different need to make a stronger case for why.

~Jon
Title: Re: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: Comga on 06/24/2016 05:26 AM
I like the idea of using Martian years instead of Earth years for all SpaceX predictions.
It's not as pessimistic as my old SpaceX Time Dilation Factor of 2.4.
So I picked 2020.

We know Mars is a keen focus of Musk, but it seems incredible to get systems ready that have a chance of surviving for the several month transit in interplanetary space.  On the other hand, he could just toss a Dragon at Mars and see how long it lasts, but that sounds lame.
Title: Re: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: cleonard on 06/24/2016 05:27 AM
You can always launch to earth orbit tomorrow if you are not ready today.  Not so with Mars as "tomorrow" is 26 months away.

Not saying that it's a 100% for sure that they will make 2018, but I do think they are going to try real hard to make it.

Sent from my ASUS_Z00TD using Tapatalk
Title: Re: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: sdsds on 06/24/2016 05:49 AM
Mine is the outlying estimate that they'll make the 2022 window. But no launch system that hasn't already put a payload through TMI is likely to do it any sooner.

"Time dilation." It explains so much....
Title: Re: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: stoker5432 on 06/24/2016 02:24 PM
2018 for sure. Looking at previous Mars missions, what they're proposing to do is much less complex. They're also smart enough to describe it as a "test flight" so just like the first F9 landing attempts, they can point to a failure as a learning experience and a probable outcome.
Title: Re: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: whitelancer64 on 06/24/2016 03:22 PM
If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that the Red Dragon will be the 4th Dragon v2 off the production line. The 1st will be the unmanned test flight to the ISS / in-flight abort test article, the 2nd is for the crewed test flight to the ISS, the 3rd is for the first operational crew flight Dragon, and the 4th would be the Red Dragon.

We know that production has already started on the first two orbital test flight Dragons, and I very much doubt SpaceX would put their Commercial Crew vehicle production at second priority for the Red Dragon, also keep in mind that development of the Dragon v2 isn't done yet, the final dCDR review hasn't been completed and major component testing (including retropropulsive landing tests) isn't done yet either. Assuming no large funding delays or issues coming up during testing that need to be fixed, the orbital test flights are currently projected to be completed by mid-2017. It might have one operational ISS crew delivery flight under its belt at the end of 2017 or in the first quarter of 2018.

That doesn't give SpaceX much time to actually build the Red Dragon before the April 2018 launch window to Mars, given that it will have to be specially built in a clean room for planetary protection purposes. It's not impossible by a long shot, particularly if the Red Dragon is a mostly stock Dragon v2 (a great deal will depend on how much modification will have to be done to the stock design) whose primary purpose is the EDL test, with few or no other experiments on board as a payload, but even so it will be tight timeline with a very solid deadline.

I voted 2020 as the more likely launch window.
Title: Re: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: Confusador on 06/24/2016 04:39 PM
2018, at about 70%.

I find it difficult to believe that FH and Dragon 2 won't be flying at that point.  So on the grounds that "something" is better than "nothing" I think they'll throw one in the right direction with as much on board as they are able to have ready.  Now, I'd give them low odds of being able to do much useful with it other than EDL (ISRU testing is out until 20), but EDL by itself is valuable enough that the only thing I see holding them back is their ablility to manufacture Dragons quickly enough.
Title: Re: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: Kaputnik on 06/24/2016 09:06 PM
2020.
FH isn't flying yet. They need 3-core tests on the stand, then they need cautious test flights with no schedule pressure, and they need sucessful flights, above all else. A FH flight is big, complex, and costly, and I doubt that they will be in a position to confidently hit a launch window in 2018.

To quote the Simpsons: "I can do it fast, or I can do it right"
Title: Re: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: the_other_Doug on 06/25/2016 03:57 AM
I really can't believe that SpaceX would announce their intention to launch Red Dragon to Mars in the 2018 synod unless there was a complete, detailed design for the entire Red Dragon configuration (including all systems in the trunk) and for how that spacecraft will be operated and managed throughout its mission.  And I'd have to believe that metal is already being bent on the spacecraft that will be sent to Mars.

Heh, that's funny. You mean like how Elon only told his propulsion guys about how Merlin-1D was now going to be a 140klbf engine the day before his Falcon Heavy announcement? IIRC they had just come to tell Elon that they had managed to get the Merlin 1D test to a higher thrust than expected: ~124klbf.

And when has anything SpaceX proposed actually happened on time? Why do we expect this time it will be different? Was Falcon Heavy not important to Elon? Commercial Crew flights? Etc?

I actually think his idea of a regular milk-run to Mars is brilliant, I just think that people who believe this time will be different need to make a stronger case for why.

~Jon

Ah, but you edited out my first paragraph, which came directly before the part you quoted:

I'd like to preface this with the caveat that we're talking about SpaceX here, and sometimes they do employ, shall we say, innovative development techniques.  But, that said...

So, yeah -- I'm quite aware of Elon Time, and his incredible tendency to throw out impossibly optimistic timeframes off the top of his head.

But many of the things you mention are things that were announced in much more low-key manners than this Red Dragon announcement.  This wasn't Elon talking off the top of his head to some reporter he was trying to impress.

This was SpaceX, along with NASA, announcing their entry into active Mars exploration.  The way actual legitimate corporations announce plans to the public.  Not just a lot of vague "I'm doing this because I want to establish a colony on Mars" stuff, or tweets that disappear after a few days, or a giggling Elon saying one outrageous thing after another in a magazine interview and then interrupting himself with "I oughtn't say more, this stuff isn't set in stone yet".  This was a very specific announcement (a joint SpaceX/NASA announcement, IIRC) of a timeframe when they will try to launch a spacecraft to Mars.

The way in this was announced, and the involvement of NASA with planning and their help in arranging DSN access (which SpaceX will pay for, but which no private corporation has ever even requested, to my knowledge), tells me these plans are more solidly set in stone than prior Musk public musings.

It's my own impression, but to me, this one comes off as a more solid timeframe.  YMMV.  We'll all know for sure in two years, at most.  I will say, I'm not the only one who voted for 2018 in this poll, so if I'm crazy, I'm not the only one... ;)
Title: Re: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: su27k on 06/25/2016 04:11 AM
And when has anything SpaceX proposed actually happened on time? Why do we expect this time it will be different?

Very good question, I can't actually think of any, goes to show gut feeling (for 2018 in my case) is not always aligned with reality. But nevertheless here's some totally unprofessional rationalization for my gut feeling:
1. The 2018 window is a fixed point in time. A lot of people think this is bad, I'm not sure that's entirely the case. Having a fixed time window means Elon can't just pull a random date/time from his head, everyone knows it's either 2018 or 2020, there're no 3rd choice.
2. When Red Dragon first came out in 2011 as a Discovery class mission, they were aiming for 2018 window, so I assume 2018 is not a total surprise for everyone else.
3. The SAA was signed in December 2014, so they have been working on this for a while.
4. Looking at joek's commonality chart in Red Dragon thread, looks to me there're not a lot of hardware changes between Red Dragon and Crew Dragon, mostly it's removing unnecessary CD hardware. And if they're clever, they could fold part if not all of Red Dragon R&D into CCtCAP, instead of waiting for CCtCAP to complete then start RD R&D.
5. I'm not ruling out they'll modify Crew Dragon hardware for Red Dragon, either using the 2 test articles or the Demo 1 hardware after abort test. This gets around the production lead time issue somewhat.
6. Assuming they also use recovered cores for the launch, it means the mission will have a very low cost, then I can see Space Ghost's point that they'll launch even if EDL is not totally worked out yet. Just having a functional private spacecraft reach the red planet would be a big win, even if it ends in a crater. It would blow the whole "private company can't do BLEO" narrative out of the water.
7. I assume most of the EDL problems are in software, which presumably they can remote update en-route to Mars, this gives them extra 6 months to tweak it.
Title: Re: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 06/25/2016 06:48 AM
I voted 2020. I disagree with the idea that Elon will just go with whatever SpaceX has ready in a 2018 timeframe. Mars is the whole reason SpaceX exists, so SpaceX's first attempt at going to Mars has huge importance and significance. Elon will want to maximise chances of success. Also commercial crew has a lot riding on it and politically Elon will want to prioritise that if any conflicts arise.

If everything goes perfectly I think 2018 is possible, but more realistically it'll be 2020.
Title: Re: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: sdsds on 06/26/2016 08:09 AM
I voted 2020. I disagree with the idea that Elon will just go with whatever SpaceX has ready in a 2018 timeframe. Mars is the whole reason SpaceX exists, so SpaceX's first attempt at going to Mars has huge importance and significance. Elon will want to maximise chances of success. Also commercial crew has a lot riding on it and politically Elon will want to prioritise that if any conflicts arise.

If everything goes perfectly I think 2018 is possible, but more realistically it'll be 2020.

I'm honestly trying to follow along on this line of reasoning. Rephrasing it slightly it seems to say, "Whatever SpaceX has ready in 2018 likely won't be acceptable to Elon, but in the subsequent two years the project will advance enough that it will "maximise chances of success."

Why is two years enough for the project to evolve that much? Is it something magic about the alignment of the planets that helps SpaceX make great strides forward in two years time? ;-) Really... how come it won't take three years? Or five?
Title: Re: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: redliox on 06/26/2016 08:30 AM
With a star chart in one hand and roll of duct tape in another, come hell or high water, they will throw a Dragon to Mars in 2018.
2018 for sure. Looking at previous Mars missions, what they're proposing to do is much less complex. They're also smart enough to describe it as a "test flight" so just like the first F9 landing attempts, they can point to a failure as a learning experience and a probable outcome.

I'm likewise willing to be optimistic for 2018.  One advantage the capsule will have: it doesn't need  life support to be installed like its LEO counterparts.  Rocketry, both FH and retropropulsion, would be an item to watch.
Title: Re: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: Barrie on 06/26/2016 08:56 AM
With a star chart in one hand and roll of duct tape in another, come hell or high water, they will throw a Dragon to Mars in 2018.
2018 for sure. Looking at previous Mars missions, what they're proposing to do is much less complex. They're also smart enough to describe it as a "test flight" so just like the first F9 landing attempts, they can point to a failure as a learning experience and a probable outcome.

I'm likewise willing to be optimistic for 2018.  One advantage the capsule will have: it doesn't need  life support to be installed like its LEO counterparts.  Rocketry, both FH and retropropulsion, would be an item to watch.

Yes, I can't see them not putting together an EDL test in time, even if it only delivers a tin of Spam for the Vikings.  They shouldn't be afraid of embarrassment, as any failure at Mars probably wouldn't produce any newsworthy footage, but success would.
Title: Re: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: kch on 06/26/2016 09:19 AM
With a star chart in one hand and roll of duct tape in another, come hell or high water, they will throw a Dragon to Mars in 2018.
2018 for sure. Looking at previous Mars missions, what they're proposing to do is much less complex. They're also smart enough to describe it as a "test flight" so just like the first F9 landing attempts, they can point to a failure as a learning experience and a probable outcome.

I'm likewise willing to be optimistic for 2018.  One advantage the capsule will have: it doesn't need  life support to be installed like its LEO counterparts.  Rocketry, both FH and retropropulsion, would be an item to watch.

Yes, I can't see them not putting together an EDL test in time, even if it only delivers a tin of Spam for the Vikings.  They shouldn't be afraid of embarrassment, as any failure at Mars probably wouldn't produce any newsworthy footage, but success would.

That'd get them singing!  ;D
Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: Lar on 06/26/2016 02:48 PM
Well, there's this poll:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=37233.0

Reporting my own post to the Mods...


Different (although similar) polls, my own personal opinion would be to leave them both (but I encourage the poll starters to crosslink by giving links to the other poll in their first post)

(mod hat off)

For this one, I voted 2020, I think Robotbeat's assessment that there is a 40% chance of 2018 is pretty accurate. I usually go pretty optimistic so I'm surprised I went this way. Hope I'm wrong and it goes in 2018...
Title: Re: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: TaurusLittrow on 06/26/2016 03:14 PM
2018, at about 70%.

I find it difficult to believe that FH and Dragon 2 won't be flying at that point.  So on the grounds that "something" is better than "nothing" I think they'll throw one in the right direction with as much on board as they are able to have ready.  Now, I'd give them low odds of being able to do much useful with it other than EDL (ISRU testing is out until 20), but EDL by itself is valuable enough that the only thing I see holding them back is their ablility to manufacture Dragons quickly enough.

Exactly. Red Dragon will be a substantially unmodified Dragon 2 vehicle and Falcon Heavy will have already flown. The 2018 window will drive the SpaceX team...maybe to exhaustion and some early coronaries. But there's a fair chance they'll make it. Don't expect the Hawthorne parking lot to empty at 5 pm. Like Apollo.
Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: arachnitect on 06/27/2016 12:34 AM
2022.

I could see 2020 happening, but I'd wager the chances of 2018 at something like 12 to 1 against.
Title: Re: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 06/27/2016 12:52 PM
Why is two years enough for the project to evolve that much? Is it something magic about the alignment of the planets that helps SpaceX make great strides forward in two years time? ;-) Really... how come it won't take three years? Or five?

Ok you got me, 'maximise' was the wrong word.

My opinion is simply that FH will be ready in 2017 & I think commercial crew with Dragon 2 will start at some point in 2018. But I think Red Dragon being ready for launch in the 2018 window is too tight. Another 26 months feels enough to me for Elon to be happy to launch in 2020.
Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: Dalhousie on 06/29/2016 09:56 AM
I'd like to think 2020 is realistic, but given the delays to everything else..

Falcon Heavy 5 years and counting...
Reusable Dragon 7 years and counting...
Crewed Dragon 8 years and counting...
Falcon 9 reuse 11 years and counting...

I'll go for 2022


Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: Endeavour_01 on 06/29/2016 09:51 PM
I went a bit pessimistic and voted 2022. I think 2018 is highly unlikely given that both FH and Dragon 2 have yet to fly with FH having a payload backlog and most of the Dragon 2 resources going to commercial crew. 2020 is more achievable but with all the other things SpaceX will be trying to achieve, the short launch window, and the SpaceX time dilation factor I erred on the side of caution.



Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: Proponent on 06/30/2016 11:53 PM
I'm with Dalhousie and Endeavour_01: 2022.
Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: jongoff on 07/01/2016 07:57 PM
We're about a quarter of the way through the poll period, and right now about half of respondents think SpaceX will make the 2018 window, and half think it will be 2020 or later. Interesting.

~Jon
Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: Comga on 07/03/2016 06:27 PM
We're about a quarter of the way through the poll period, and right now about half of respondents think SpaceX will make the 2018 window, and half think it will be 2020 or later. Interesting.

~Jon

Looked at another way, 90% believe that it will be before 2022. 
That is, either 2018 as announced, only two years away, or a single slip to 2020
That is high confidence.
Or Kool-aid drinking
Time will tell
Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: billh on 07/04/2016 12:23 AM
We're about a quarter of the way through the poll period, and right now about half of respondents think SpaceX will make the 2018 window, and half think it will be 2020 or later. Interesting.

~Jon

Looked at another way, 90% believe that it will be before 2022. 
That is, either 2018 as announced, only two years away, or a single slip to 2020
That is high confidence.
Or Kool-aid drinking
Time will tell

Yep. I took a long draught of the Kool-Aid and voted 2020.
Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: high road on 07/04/2016 08:28 AM
I originally thought 2020 was more realistic, but considering they still have to launch and mature Falcon Heavy, get Dragon v2 flying and human rated, relaunch first stages and Dragons (this pays the bills, so I think they're going to devote a lot of their efforts to these projects while simultaneously workin on Red Dragon), I'm going for 2022.
Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: RonM on 07/04/2016 01:52 PM
I think SpaceX has a pretty good chance of launching Red Dragon in 2018. They have been discussing this for years, so SpaceX may have been working on this for quite some time. It is an EDL test. No need to develop a complex science package. While that would be nice, developing a science package takes time and would push the mission back years. A simple weather station and some cheap cameras would do.

If SpaceX wants to land people on Mars in the next decade, they need to get testing done ASAP.
Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: QuantumG on 07/04/2016 10:51 PM
I wonder if there's any hope that September's announcement will be about the short term plan as well as the long term. Most of us tend to think Elon is designing the "exploration" architecture to be a subset of the colonization architecture - but what if there's a plan for a Dragon + Hab precursor?

Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: Coastal Ron on 07/04/2016 11:05 PM
I voted 2018, mainly because sometimes I'm an irrational optimist...   :)

But I won't be disappointed if it's after 2018.
Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: abaddon on 07/18/2016 09:47 PM
Voted 2020.  2018 is possible, but everything has to go right for it to happen.  More realistically I expect slips in the Crew Dragon schedule and that SpaceX will be too busy with that effort to spend enough time on Red Dragon to make it worthwhile.  It doesn't help that the end of the 2018 window is in May...
Title: Re: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: Paul451 on 07/19/2016 12:37 AM
Voted 2020.

But to argue against myself, Red Dragon is actually simpler than Dragon-Crew. They already have everything they need for a Mars landing, provided FH is reliable by 2018, the rest is just proving the thrusters can operate after long-duration exposure, and proving the radiation shielding of the control systems, and proving that is Red Dragon. So the hold-up I'm picturing isn't any technical development, but simply that there are so many other things on their books, there just aren't enough hours in the day between now and 2018.

[Beyond 2022, I can't see them bothering with Dragon to Mars. With a launch date for BFR in the mid-2020s, they'd have at least locked down the main design for BFS by 2024, even allowing for Elon-time. If they haven't launched Red Dragon in 2022, they'd drop it and plan for a BFS test-flight to Mars in 2026 or 2028/29.]

Is it something magic about the alignment of the planets that helps SpaceX make great strides forward in two years time? ;-) Really... how come it won't take three years? Or five?

Uh... yeah.
Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: Comga on 07/19/2016 02:14 AM
Is it something magic about the alignment of the planets that helps SpaceX make great strides forward in two years time? ;-) Really... how come it won't take three years? Or five?

Uh... yeah.

sdsds: Google "synodic period" and "Hohmann transfer"
Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: jongoff on 02/17/2017 09:21 PM
And the answer is apparently not 2018...

Jon
Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: Dalhousie on 02/19/2017 07:16 AM
And the answer is apparently not 2018...

Jon

Once again SpaceX predictions - and the expectations of their supporters - are shown to be unrealistic
Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: high road on 06/25/2017 11:42 AM
Given Gwynne Shotwell's interview in which she said SpaceX isn't committed to launching Red Dragon before BFS and that 2020 is 'aggressive', 2020 is looking less likely too.
Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: guckyfan on 06/25/2017 04:48 PM
Given Gwynne Shotwell's interview in which she said SpaceX isn't committed to launching Red Dragon before BFS and that 2020 is 'aggressive', 2020 is looking less likely too.

I am not sure how to interpret what she said. It can be interpreted as they are unlikely to launch BFS in 2020, in which case they would launch RedDragon. I am still confident they will send something to Mars in 2020. Just no longer sure that something will be RedDragon.
Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: high road on 06/25/2017 08:52 PM
Given Gwynne Shotwell's interview in which she said SpaceX isn't committed to launching Red Dragon before BFS and that 2020 is 'aggressive', 2020 is looking less likely too.

I am not sure how to interpret what she said. It can be interpreted as they are unlikely to launch BFS in 2020, in which case they would launch RedDragon. I am still confident they will send something to Mars in 2020. Just no longer sure that something will be RedDragon.

Is there any reason to invest in developing Red Dragon if they already have BFS either in 2020 or the next launch window? Especially if we're still talking about the red dragon that can't deploy rovers.

edit: yes, I'm totally ignoring the other elephants in the previous post.
edit2: inserted quote I responded to for clarity.
Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: Paul451 on 06/27/2017 09:11 AM
Is there any reason to invest in developing Red Dragon if they already have BFS either in 2020 or the next launch window?

Their "aggressive" schedule is to have ITS available for Mars test flights by NET 2023. However, realistically, just as Red Dragon slipped out to 2020 at the earliest, ITS will slip to the late 2020s. That leaves plenty of time to launch several fairly cheap Red Dragons to survey sites for ITS landings.



First image is Musk's timeline. Second is my "correction", simply assuming that Musk-years are Mars-years. [Because; a) it's funny, and b) it fits surprisingly well.]
Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: high road on 06/29/2017 01:06 PM
Working on two completely different systems in the same time, while both are fantastic in their own right and IMO are quite complementary even when available at the same time, is not a good way of speeding up a first launch. I'm hoping that they don't jump to ITS without doing Red Dragon first, or something that can deploy payloads more easily. NASA and ESA would like to use that, I think.

It wouldn't be the first time Red Dragon gets reinvented.
Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: guckyfan on 06/29/2017 05:03 PM
Is there any reason to invest in developing Red Dragon if they already have BFS either in 2020 or the next launch window? Especially if we're still talking about the red dragon that can't deploy rovers.

It depends. The intent seemed to be to survey a number of sites. Doing that with the expensive BFS and losing at least those which landed on a not downselected site is expensive. Doing initial surveys with a cheaper vehicle makes sense. If they now send much smaller, hopefully much cheaper landers than a full BFS on several sites it may be a good choice, given that they can deploy heavier digging equipment and larger solar arrays for evaluating water resources.

I think it was never an option to send a RedDragon that can not deploy a rover, if not the full size of Curiosity. There were plenty of statements by Elon Musk and Gwynne Shotwell that of course they can.
Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: envy887 on 06/30/2017 01:20 PM
Is there any reason to invest in developing Red Dragon if they already have BFS either in 2020 or the next launch window? Especially if we're still talking about the red dragon that can't deploy rovers.

It depends. The intent seemed to be to survey a number of sites. Doing that with the expensive BFS and losing at least those which landed on a not downselected site is expensive. Doing initial surveys with a cheaper vehicle makes sense. If they now send much smaller, hopefully much cheaper landers than a full BFS on several sites it may be a good choice, given that they can deploy heavier digging equipment and larger solar arrays for evaluating water resources.

I think it was never an option to send a RedDragon that can not deploy a rover, if not the full size of Curiosity. There were plenty of statements by Elon Musk and Gwynne Shotwell that of course they can.

That's where a mini-BFS would be useful. Bigger payloads than Dragon, but still reasonably inexpensive.
Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: hop on 07/19/2017 06:41 PM
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/887737030704115712
Quote
Musk: no longer believe that Dragon propulsive approach is the best way to land on Mars. Not the best way to apply resources now. #ISSRDC
Oh.
Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: cro-magnon gramps on 07/19/2017 06:58 PM
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/887737030704115712
Quote
Musk: no longer believe that Dragon propulsive approach is the best way to land on Mars. Not the best way to apply resources now. #ISSRDC
Oh.
Well it looks like NEVER won this poll... something I did not foresee...  :o
Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 07/19/2017 07:06 PM
Indeed. The first thing SpaceX land on Mars is going to be quite a bit bigger than Dragon!
Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: rockets4life97 on 07/19/2017 07:09 PM
Time for an updated poll: When will SpaceX launch a mission to land on Mars?
Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: Lar on 07/19/2017 07:48 PM
Looks like the 5 members who voted "never" win this one. Sadly.

Time for an updated poll: When will SpaceX launch a mission to land on Mars?

Give it a few days but yeah...

What does "SpaceX" mean in this context...   (in terms of who paid for what)? So as to avoid wrangling later. :)
Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: hop on 07/19/2017 10:00 PM
What does "SpaceX" mean in this context...   (in terms of who paid for what)? So as to avoid wrangling later. :)
My 2 cents would be a lander developed by SpaceX or SpaceX as the lead contractor, regardless of who paid for it.

SpaceX launching hardware built by someone else (e.g. the role of Atlas in InSight or 2020) would just be a regular launch service. SpaceX developing landing hardware would be relevant to the whole Mars project, regardless of whether they convinced someone else to pay for it.
Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: high road on 07/20/2017 06:52 AM
Looks like the 5 members who voted "never" win this one. Sadly.

Time for an updated poll: When will SpaceX launch a mission to land on Mars?

Give it a few days but yeah...

What does "SpaceX" mean in this context...   (in terms of who paid for what)? So as to avoid wrangling later. :)

That would be a nice subcategory for such a poll as well: who will pay for (early) SpaceX transport services to Mars? Will NASA be allowed to develop payloads for it rather than for SLS? Will ESA/Roscosmos be willing/allowed to purchase ITS to actually get a payload to the surface intact? Will ITS bring prices down enough so scientists can send their own experiments? Hell, throw in space tourism and Mars One and whatnot for good measure.
Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: savuporo on 07/21/2017 01:47 AM
Check in on wisdom of the crowds.

I believe i voted 'never'
Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: tesla on 07/21/2017 01:56 AM
Check in on wisdom of the crowds.

I believe i voted 'never'

Your comment, pointing out reality, is offensive to us snowflakes. please delete it.
Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: vapour_nudge on 12/05/2017 12:50 AM
Check in on wisdom of the crowds.

I believe i voted 'never'

I voted never too, a bitter-sweet result. But I voted never because I just can't see it happening at all, even with Musk. I'm tired of hearing it for so many years, always 10 years or so away. I just can't believe it would happen



Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: MATTBLAK on 12/05/2017 01:16 AM
Check in on wisdom of the crowds.

I believe i voted 'never'

Your comment, pointing out reality, is offensive to us snowflakes. please delete it.
A snowflake like me was a little depressed when I realised that Red Dragon would likely never happen. So I'm currently writing a short novella to portray a manned Red Dragon mission... ;)
Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: Paul451 on 12/05/2017 02:09 PM
So I'm currently writing a short novella to portray a manned Red Dragon mission...

Manned Dragon? One way?
Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: MATTBLAK on 12/05/2017 07:04 PM
Not one way. Flags and footprints, crew of 2...
Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: Paul451 on 12/05/2017 07:26 PM
Not one way. Flags and footprints, crew of 2...

How are they meant to get back?
Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: envy887 on 12/05/2017 08:25 PM
Not one way. Flags and footprints, crew of 2...

How are they meant to get back?

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=44081.0
Title: Re: POLL: When will the first Red Dragon mission be launched to Mars?
Post by: MATTBLAK on 12/05/2017 08:28 PM
Not enough time to get into that here. Just remember Zubrin's Mars Direct 'Lite' proposal from 2011 with pre-deployed MAV on the surface and Dragon/HAB/TEI Stage in Martian orbit...