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SpaceX Vehicles and Missions => SpaceX Mega Thread Archive Section => Topic started by: Chris Bergin on 12/14/2014 04:19 PM

Title: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Chris Bergin on 12/14/2014 04:19 PM
Time for thread 2 as thread 1 was becoming convoluted (long threads tend to, and we hate trimming threads - so left intact and here's a fresh one to get the focus back).

Main Article:
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2014/11/spacex-autonomous-spaceport-drone-ship/
(Also contains links to other articles covering reusability tech).

ASDS General Discussion Thread 1:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36140.0

ASDS Update Thread (for closer the time):
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36167.0

SpaceX Articles:
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/tag/spacex/

L2 SpaceX Section:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?board=55.0


Stay focused. No excuse to rambling off into other areas of reuse etc when we have so many threads on what is the largest forum level discussion of SpaceX on the entire bloody internet! ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: deruch on 12/14/2014 08:59 PM
Quote from: The Amazing Catstronaut link=topic=36140.msg1302393#msg1302393
Edit: Does anyone have a link to where I'd find a (rough) model for the aquadynamic properties for the  ASDS?

Brought over from thread 1.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: symbios on 12/14/2014 10:37 PM
Quote from: The Amazing Catstronaut link=topic=36140.msg1302393#msg1302393
Edit: Does anyone have a link to where I'd find a (rough) model for the aquadynamic properties for the  ASDS?

Brought over from thread 1.

It's based on a flat bottom, flat fronted barge... it has the aquadynamic properties of a brick... (if a brick would float)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Avron on 12/14/2014 10:50 PM
Quote from: The Amazing Catstronaut link=topic=36140.msg1302393#msg1302393
Edit: Does anyone have a link to where I'd find a (rough) model for the aquadynamic properties for the  ASDS?

Brought over from thread 1.

It's based on a flat bottom, flat fronted barge... it has the aquadynamic properties of a brick... (if a brick would float)

BargeX -- we assume is a group of barges assembled into one boat. now a boat can have a flat bottom, can a Ship also have the same shape.. Elon noted Ship.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: llanitedave on 12/15/2014 12:10 AM
Modern ships do have flat bottoms in cross section.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: CameronD on 12/15/2014 12:39 AM
Quote from: The Amazing Catstronaut link=topic=36140.msg1302393#msg1302393
Edit: Does anyone have a link to where I'd find a (rough) model for the aquadynamic properties for the  ASDS?

Brought over from thread 1.

It's based on a flat bottom, flat fronted barge... it has the aquadynamic properties of a brick... (if a brick would float)

Do you have any evidence to support that claim??  From the aerial photos made available it clearly could also have a catamaran hull.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: darkenfast on 12/15/2014 01:20 AM
The hull appears to be a stock barge.  No need to make things more complicated and expensive than they need to be.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: CameronD on 12/15/2014 01:29 AM
The hull appears to be a stock barge.  No need to make things more complicated and expensive than they need to be.

If your requirement is maximum stability (not just the ability to carry stuff), then yes there probably IS a need to make things more complicated and expensive.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Nomadd on 12/15/2014 03:20 AM
 Maybe if things pan out SpaceX will have Austal make them a nice 45 knot cat. But I think it's a good bet this one is just built onto a used, flat bottomed barge.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Doesitfloat on 12/15/2014 12:48 PM
The hull appears to be a stock barge.  No need to make things more complicated and expensive than they need to be.

If your requirement is maximum stability (not just the ability to carry stuff), then yes there probably IS a need to make things more complicated and expensive.

This isn't a government contract. Why spend a dollar when the nickel solution works fine.
They could absolutely spend exponentially more money on a marginally more stable platform.

Source: Principles of Naval Architecture: Volume III Motions in Waves and Controllability
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Zed_Noir on 12/15/2014 08:19 PM
Youtube user KerbalEssences uploaded this amusing KSP video of a F9R bargeslam.  :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXv-6i7aJT0

mods: move post to more appropriate thread if required
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Dudely on 12/15/2014 08:31 PM
Someone linked to that on a Google+ post as "proof" SpaceX will be able to do it. . . I didn't even know what to say.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: chalz on 12/15/2014 10:56 PM
One thing it did do well was illustrate, in Musk's words, how small the barge looks from space.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: georgegassaway on 12/16/2014 07:37 PM
Something that occurred to me, which  do not know if it has been discussed before. It involves Falcon Heavy, but I think it belongs in this thread as I have begun to wonder if the landing barge  (or Autonomus Spaceport Drone Ship) may have been intended all along for Falcon Heavy anyway.

The idea involves three things:

1 - A place to land at sea, which now exists with the barge / ASDS.

2 - Permission to land stages back at the Cape.  That permission is pending, seems likely, the success of the landing attempts on the barge/ASDS perhaps being the eventual deciding factor.

3 - And finally, Falcon Heavy being launched, trying to recover all three of the Falcon first stage cores.

Due to the cross-feed of fuel/oxidizer from the two outer cores, the center core will be nearly full when the outer cores separate. So, the center core will travel a lot farther downrange, at a much greater velocity, than the existing Falcon-9 first stage is when it finally stages.  So, while it is possible for Falcon-9 to fly the first stage back to land (at a bigger payload hit than landing far out at sea), the much  greater downrange distance and velocity of the center core of Falcon Heavy would seem to be impractical to fly it back to the Cape.

So, SpaceX has probably had good reason to have the barge/ASDS eventually, to support recovery of the center core of Falcon Heavy. And there probably have been a lot of people who have realized this part in the last few weeks with release of existence of the barge / ASDS.

But the other thing that occurred to me more recently is how much easier it should be to have the two outer cores fly back to land, than for the Falcon-9 first stage.  Because the outer cores will be providing about 1/3 of their fuel to the center core. So when they need to shut down and separate,  their ballistic path will not be traveling nearly as far downrange, and not nearly as fast, as Falcon 9's first stage. 

Let's say a guesstimate in the ballpark of about 60% as far and 60% as fast? Perhaps even closer to 50%  So they will not need as much fuel to be able to thrust back to the Cape as a Falcon-9 first stage would.

About the only fly in the ointment of the newly announced barge / ASDS, and using if to recover the Falcon Heavy core, is that the ballistic path may cause it to land many hundreds more miles downrange, perhaps over 1000 (guesstimate).  So the distance would mean a long trip back, several days, which may encounter some pretty bad sea conditions, even storms, that the current version may not be equipped to handle.

 So, It'll be interesting to see if they have already accounted for that sort of thing, ways to secure it against bad weather and sea conditions for much longer  trips back rather than Falcon-9 recovery which may take only a day or so. 

At first it had sounded like all they were doing was a temporary test barge for a few flights due to lack of permission to land at the Cape.  But it may be that it is an inevitable necessity long-term to support Falcon Heavy recovery.

- George Gassaway
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Nomadd on 12/16/2014 08:01 PM
Something that occurred to me, which  do not know if it has been discussed before. It involves Falcon Heavy, but I think it belongs in this thread as I have begun to wonder if the landing barge  (or Autonomus Spaceport Drone Ship) may have been intended all along for Falcon Heavy anyway.

- George Gassaway
You could have saved a lot of typing by keeping up. SpaceX has already said the barge is for FH center cores and F9 cores where they can't afford the RTLS payload penalty.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: MTom on 12/16/2014 09:53 PM
Something that occurred to me, which  do not know if it has been discussed before.
...

Something like this?   ;)

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: e of pi on 12/16/2014 10:30 PM
So, the barge has been seen departing in the care of a tug and the company o a ship carrying some assorted dishes, per Spaceflight now (http://spaceflightnow.com/2014/12/16/photos-spacexs-autonomous-spaceport-drone-ship/). Seems to pretty conclusively prove that the flight deck is right on top of the hull, and that it's a cheap, simple, standard barge with a flight deck welded on, not a more lavish setup like some have speculated.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: matthewkantar on 12/16/2014 10:35 PM
Very exciting, the post reveals the names of the barge, the tug, probably the support ship. Should be able to watch the progress of the operation in real time.

Matthew
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: robertross on 12/16/2014 11:37 PM
So, the barge has been seen departing in the care of a tug and the company o a ship carrying some assorted dishes, per Spaceflight now (http://spaceflightnow.com/2014/12/16/photos-spacexs-autonomous-spaceport-drone-ship/). Seems to pretty conclusively prove that the flight deck is right on top of the hull, and that it's a cheap, simple, standard barge with a flight deck welded on, not a more lavish setup like some have speculated.
Thanks for the link

Of note, I see on deck:
1) The landing pad mostly surrounded by an I-beam style structure, to contain the rocket on the pad and/or aid in containing water to aid in cooling the deck surface from exhaust gases

2) 3 of (though probably 4) diesel powered units, grey coloured, c/w fire extinguishers, obviously for the thrustmaster positioning hydraulic units. Also located directly in front of them are 'massive' (relatively speaking) cooler units (likely for the hydraulics, as the engine coolers are self-contained).

3) Binocular set on top of a container, perhaps IR or motion stabilized? Certainly weatherized in an enclosure meant to move

4) 1/2 size Radar and communications containers fore & aft

5) 4 of unknown yellow containers. Likely Diesel fuel though, for the diesel-powered units (as they stand right beside them)

6) 2 of unknown full-size containers, 2 each fore & aft, likely for storage and/or personnel protection from the elements
 
7) the landing surface is surrounded by a railing, strung with galvanized aircraft cable (likely) and/or chain

8_ Some weird looking cherry picker (mfr: TEUPEN), with (rubber?) track drive c/w outrigger legs

9) work lights
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: CameronD on 12/16/2014 11:55 PM
There's a lot more junk on deck than I'd expected.  They must be mighty confident of a pin-point landing.  :)


8_ Some weird looking cherry picker (mfr: TEUPEN), with (rubber?) track drive c/w outrigger legs

That would be one of these - presumably for safeing the landed stage:

(http://www.teupen.com/static/site_media/img-relaunch2011/leo-series/leo-23-gt/leo23gt-01-x.jpg)

http://www.teupen.com/en/access-platforms/leo-range/leo-23-gt.html (http://www.teupen.com/en/access-platforms/leo-range/leo-23-gt.html)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 12/17/2014 12:09 AM
That unit can reach up the landed F9 core a long way to attach tie down cables?

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: deruch on 12/17/2014 12:15 AM
Also, the deck appears flat and not ramped at the ends.  At least, not significantly ramped.  Not enough to protect the gear and containers anyways.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: catdlr on 12/17/2014 12:17 AM
SpaceX Is About To Land A Rocket On A Platform In The Ocean — A Feat That Could Forever Change Spaceflight

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/spacex-land-rocket-ocean-platform-232117337.html

Quote
Musk tweeted images of the football-field long platform. They plan to use GPS tracking, the rockets newly attached "X-wings," and other technology to help safely guide the multi-million-dollar Falcon 9 onto the platform.

"It's probably not more than a 50% chance or less of landing it on the platform," Musk said, still optimistic at the MIT AeroAstro Centennial Symposium. "But there's at least a dozen launches that will occur over the next 12 months, and I think it's quite likely, probably 80 to 90% likely, that one of those flights will be able to land and re-fly. So I think we're quite close."
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: CameronD on 12/17/2014 01:02 AM
That unit can reach up the landed F9 core a long way to attach tie down cables?

No idea - but it probably doesn't have to reach up too far.  It seems Teupen make cherry-pickers like this up to 50m reach, which would be a horribly unpleasant height to be at on a barge in the open ocean.

By way of reminder, a sea-borne version of this is what is being planned here (from the Spacex Facebook page):
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 12/17/2014 01:52 AM
As the CG is below the top of the legs, thanks to the mass of the 9 Merlins being close to the deck, maybe attach 4 tie downs to the top of the leg to core attachment points to stop the F9 sliding around the deck.

There are 2 LEOs on the sea pad. One at each end of the landing deck, near the containers. With the rubber tracks they can move over the deck, then spread the 3 legs to lift the bucket up the F9 core.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: parham55 on 12/17/2014 02:06 AM
From the SpaceX blog: http://www.spacex.com/news/2014/12/16/x-marks-spot-falcon-9-attempts-ocean-platform-landing

edit: added image
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: robertross on 12/17/2014 02:09 AM
That unit can reach up the landed F9 core a long way to attach tie down cables?

No idea - but it probably doesn't have to reach up too far.  It seems Teupen make cherry-pickers like this up to 50m reach, which would be a horribly unpleasant height to be at on a barge in the open ocean.

By way of reminder, a sea-borne version of this is what is being planned here (from the Spacex Facebook page):

The one linked looks to be the correct one. It has a listed reach of 23,00m (which is obviously good enough, otherwise they would have gone with a larger version)

I agree though, it would be an unpleasant height on a pitching barge! I'll pass!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: robertross on 12/17/2014 02:10 AM
From the SpaceX blog: http://www.spacex.com/news/2014/12/16/x-marks-spot-falcon-9-attempts-ocean-platform-landing

"To complicate matters further, the landing site is limited in size and not entirely stationary. The autonomous spaceport drone ship is 300 by 100 feet, with wings that extend its width to 170 feet. While that may sound huge at first, to a Falcon 9 first stage coming from space, it seems very small. The legspan of the Falcon 9 first stage is about 70 feet and while the ship is equipped with powerful thrusters to help it stay in place, it is not actually anchored, so finding the bullseye becomes particularly tricky. During previous attempts, we could only expect a landing accuracy of within 10km. For this attempt, we’re targeting a landing accuracy of within 10 meters."
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: robertross on 12/17/2014 02:12 AM
From the SpaceX blog: http://www.spacex.com/news/2014/12/16/x-marks-spot-falcon-9-attempts-ocean-platform-landing

"To complicate matters further, the landing site is limited in size and not entirely stationary. The autonomous spaceport drone ship is 300 by 100 feet, with wings that extend its width to 170 feet. While that may sound huge at first, to a Falcon 9 first stage coming from space, it seems very small. The legspan of the Falcon 9 first stage is about 70 feet and while the ship is equipped with powerful thrusters to help it stay in place, it is not actually anchored, so finding the bullseye becomes particularly tricky. During previous attempts, we could only expect a landing accuracy of within 10km. For this attempt, we’re targeting a landing accuracy of within 10 meters."

So that must be what we are seeing with the I-beams on the deck surface: the underside of the 'wings'.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: CameronD on 12/17/2014 02:29 AM
From the SpaceX blog: http://www.spacex.com/news/2014/12/16/x-marks-spot-falcon-9-attempts-ocean-platform-landing

edit: added image

It would be interesting to compare the dimensions of that landing pad to the dimensions of the ASDS platform.  Must be awfully close... and, if so, is perhaps an indication they've been practicing this for a while now (albeit from a lower altitude).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 12/17/2014 02:38 AM
:(  Too bad, I was rooting for a curved deck...  But I'll take it :)

70 feet leg span on a 170 foot wide target....  so 50' error is the absolute worst case allowed. 

Getting it into the yellow circle would mean about 5' off target, roughly a GH landing.

A friend just send me this video, for comparison:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/bC2XIGMI2kM

Which makes you wonder...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 12/17/2014 02:47 AM
Question being, how long can a F9 hover at station, until a good landing attitude develops?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 12/17/2014 03:03 AM
Zero....

It doesn't do it that way - it's the difference between automatic guidance and a human pilot - it calculates a solution the best it can and tries to stick it.

If ever they were to try to land a boat as wild as this, they'd have to figure out in advance where it will be as part of the landing solution, but clearly that's not the plan.

I just thought it was befitting the occasion.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 12/17/2014 03:03 AM
Also, the deck appears flat and not ramped at the ends.  At least, not significantly ramped.  Not enough to protect the gear and containers anyways.

They seem to be really sure about accuracy :-). I was expecting some thing like a Jet Blast Deflector at least.
But yeah hypothesis about deck being not high is right also again the width of deck is definitely 150 ft from new images as well. But if you include the metal extension on wings then it makes it 170 ft :-).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: matthewkantar on 12/17/2014 03:07 AM
The stage can hover not at all. Minimum thrust from one engine will be more than the weight of the stage, so an attempt to hover would see the stage gain altitude. The stage will have to cancel it's velocity at the same moment it touches the barge.

Matthew
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 12/17/2014 03:13 AM
With the Yellow wrap around low wall, maybe they plan to flood the deck 0.5m deep in sea water just before touchdown?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 12/17/2014 03:23 AM
With the Yellow wrap around low wall, maybe they plan to flood the deck 0.5m deep in sea water just before touchdown?

They don't need any pool of water on grasshopper tests so why should they have it here? But expect deluge guns for sure. But seems that boundary would obstruct cherry picker.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: inventodoc on 12/17/2014 03:25 AM
Is that landing deck transparent?  is it a grid like material? It seems 'see through'.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: laika_fr on 12/17/2014 03:27 AM
anyone has the picture of the barge leaving  ?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 12/17/2014 03:29 AM
Looks like a Yellow water tightest membrane.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: enzo on 12/17/2014 03:40 AM
The stage can hover not at all. Minimum thrust from one engine will be more than the weight of the stage, so an attempt to hover would see the stage gain altitude. The stage will have to cancel it's velocity at the same moment it touches the barge.
So then F9Rdev1 had some ballast? It was quite proficient at hovering.

edit: never mind, found this post http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=33892.msg1185402#msg1185402
New question, if there is only one shot at landing, does that mean the barge landing abort mode is to throttle up and fly away?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: ChrisC on 12/17/2014 03:56 AM
anyone has the picture of the barge leaving  ?

See Spaceflightnow story linked earlier in this thread.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: laika_fr on 12/17/2014 04:23 AM
thank you, you earn a forecast wave map :

(http://s9.postimg.org/e3we981v3/barg2.png)

- 1 meter max waves
- 13 km/h wind gusts

things are looking good ... calm weather
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Mader Levap on 12/17/2014 10:33 AM
During previous attempts, we could only expect a landing accuracy of within 10km.
Isn't that first time they said anything about accuracy of previous attempts?

For this attempt, we’re targeting a landing accuracy of within 10 meters."
From 10 km to 10 m... oh dear. This is three orders of magnitude. Can fins, upgraded software etc really make up that difference? Apparently, at least according to SpaceX simulations. Still, no wonder there is talk about 50:50 chances.

New question, if there is only one shot at landing, does that mean the barge landing abort mode is to throttle up and fly away?
I think they either hit barge exactly on the spot or miss it by wide margin. While your abort mode is probably possible, I doubt it will be used.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Hauerg on 12/17/2014 10:44 AM
From the email SpaceX sent yesterday:
"The concept of landing a rocket on an ocean platform has been around for decades but it has never been attempted."

Seems like a special greeting to Blue Origin.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: robertross on 12/17/2014 11:05 AM
With the Yellow wrap around low wall, maybe they plan to flood the deck 0.5m deep in sea water just before touchdown?

I posted a quote of my earlier comment on that low yellow wall.

That is, I believe, the underside I-beam structure of the fold-out extensions we are seeing.
So my guess now is that they aren't flooding it.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: AnalogMan on 12/17/2014 11:11 AM
Just for fun I have attempted to remove the fisheye distortion from the photo and realigned the lower side of the platform to be horizontal (also cropped).  The painted targets are pretty good circles, so the image is amenable to dimensional analysis anyone cares to make.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Llian Rhydderch on 12/17/2014 11:59 AM
Just for fun I have attempted to remove the fisheye distortion from the photo and realigned the lower side of the platform to be horizontal (also cropped).  The painted targets are pretty good circles, so the image is amenable to dimensional analysis anyone cares to make.

Great work!  Thanks for removing that distortion and giving us all this photo.

Now, anyone want to speculate on where the azimuth thruster booms are?  I would think they would be stowed horizontal while at the dock in port (and for transport while under tugboat power). I'm not seeing them. 

If we really are seeing bits of the barge and/or water through some sort of a deck grid, I would think we might be able to make out where the four large thrusters are in their stowed position.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 12/17/2014 12:02 PM
Just for fun I have attempted to remove the fisheye distortion from the photo and realigned the lower side of the platform to be horizontal (also cropped).  The painted targets are pretty good circles, so the image is amenable to dimensional analysis anyone cares to make.


Based on your image dimensions of barge if length is 300ft or 288ft

985 px Length
325 px Width
495 px Winged Width
550 px Winged width + work platform

985 * X = 300
X = 0.30456852791878172588832487309645

300.0  ft Length
98.98  ft Width
150.76 ft Winged Width
167.51 ft Winged width + work platform


985 * X = 288
X = 0.29238578680203045685279187817259

288.0  ft Length
95.02  ft Width
144.73 ft Winged Width
160.81 ft Winged width + work platform
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: deruch on 12/17/2014 01:22 PM
Nice.  Another way to get good measurements on this thing might be to crosscheck against the dimensions on the power units for the thrusters (I think they're the white boxes, but maybe the blue ones).  That would give a good confirmation of all estimates.  Page 8 of their brochure (http://www.thrustmaster.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Portable-Dyanmic-Positioning-System-Brochure-2014.pdf) has a table with the dimensions of their variously sized units: 

length x width x height (in inches) 
136 x 67 x 117
240 x 96 x 108
255 x 96 x 101
238 x 96 x 171
240 x 98 x 139
324 x 114 x 166
324 x 114 x 166

Which gives possible lengths to the hydraulic thruster unit boxes of:  11'4"; 20'; 21'3"; 19'10"; 27'

If anyone wants to try to find out for sure which model it is you can call Thrustmaster.  I found 2 phone numbers for them on the website(www.thrustmaster.net): (713)987-4265 or (713)937-6295.  No guarantee they'll tell you which model SpaceX used, though.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Marams on 12/17/2014 01:47 PM
In reply from the mission section:
BTW,  what's the big divot in the deck near the "x", a burn mark from testing? It looks like a small impact crater!

Looks to me like a pipe coming up from under the deck at an angle, making an elliptical intersection with the deck. Maybe a drain, or maybe they will pump seawater onto the deck through the pipe.

I happened to read that comment then look at this pic:
http://spaceflightnow.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/barge03.jpg

They appear to be pumping something into it. I am guessing they want to use freshwater not seawater.

Or if it's a grid deck, they could fill the whole barge with freshwater. It's still a barge afterall. The extra weight would also stabilize the barge in heavy seas. The water would mostly absorb the blast. And the nearby containers would survive the landing.

If I look long enough at the images I almost see the slosh baffles through the grid deck :) .

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: sghill on 12/17/2014 01:52 PM
Just for fun I have attempted to remove the fisheye distortion from the photo and realigned the lower side of the platform to be horizontal (also cropped).  The painted targets are pretty good circles, so the image is amenable to dimensional analysis anyone cares to make.

Great work!  Thanks for removing that distortion and giving us all this photo.

Now, anyone want to speculate on where the azimuth thruster booms are?  I would think they would be stowed horizontal while at the dock in port (and for transport while under tugboat power). I'm not seeing them. 

If we really are seeing bits of the barge and/or water through some sort of a deck grid, I would think we might be able to make out where the four large thrusters are in their stowed position.

In the first thread, one of the NSF members more familiar with those types of thrusters stated that they are usually left in the down and locked position unless they need to raise them for maintenance.

You can see the 4 thrusters peaking out of the shadows at each corner.  The tops of them look like teeny tiny blue the same shade as the larger blue generators at each corner.  The thrusters are closer in to the middle of the barge than the generator units. The two at the front are easier to spot than the two at the rear, but you can see all 4.

I also noticed something from the photo about the height of the "service decks" where all the fore and aft equipment is stowed.  The service decks are NOT below the level of the flight deck.  They are level with it.

Take a look at the shadows on the aft cargo boxes, they fall right onto the flight deck with no "step" pattern you'd get if the boxes were at a lower height than the flight deck.  Also the safety railing continues unbroken along the port side (water facing side) with no difference in shadowing from the rail posts, and they don't continue to run along the flight deck, they run behind the service deck instead meaning the service and flight decks are the same height.  Finally, there is a red cherry picker stowed on the fore-deck that would have little value if they can't drive it onto the flight deck.

There are two guys standing on deck.  One appears to me to be the drone operator holding an RC transmitter.  The other is wearing a trench coat and glasses off to the side. ;)

There appears to be large loading ramps on the port and starboard sides about 10-12 wide.  The port side is stowed, and the starboard side ramp is lowered.  There's also a covered white gangway leading up to the deck from the dock (look at the shadows).

I don't think this is a grid deck at all.  It looks like a standard welded steel barge deck IMHO.

I've added captions to some of the details I noticed.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Lar on 12/17/2014 02:02 PM
Trench coat and glasses? Your eyes are better than mine. :)
Nice work on the captions to identify bits.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: sghill on 12/17/2014 02:03 PM
Trench coat and glasses? Your eyes are better than mine. :)
Nice work on the captions to identify bits.

I find the "moon crater" to be the most interesting bit of the image.  I wonder if they just came up with a blow torch to simulate a landing and see if the steel deck would hold up.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Almurray1958 on 12/17/2014 02:15 PM
Barge name = Marmac 300
Google search "Hull type Marmac 300"

results = http://boatdb.net/boat/marmac-300-1063184.htm 

pretty standard barge

MARMAC 300 (1063184)
USCG ID   1063184
Year   1998
Length   288 feet / 87.8 meters
Depth   19.8 feet / 6 meters
Breadth   100 feet / 30.5 meters
Gross Tonnage   4422
Net Tonnage   1326
Name   MARMAC 300
Service   FREIGHT BARGE
Trade   Coastwise Unrestricted, Registry
Hull Material   STEEL
Builder   GULF COAST FABRICATION
Port   NEW ORLEANS LA
Owner   MARMAC LLC
1750 CLEARVIEW PARKWAY
METAIRIE, LA 70001-2470
Previous Names   No Vessel Name Changes
Previous Owners   MARMAC LLC
Hull Number   
Imo   
Call Sign   
Date Issued   2014-03-24 04:00:00
Date Expires   2015-04-30 04:00:00
Owner Name   MARMAC LLC
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Almurray1958 on 12/17/2014 02:18 PM
built 1998, not a cat just a barge
std ballast, standard anti-fouling paint

http://cfpub2.epa.gov/npdes/vessels/vesselsnoidetail.cfm?PermitId=131541&status=Active
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cscott on 12/17/2014 02:29 PM
The green support ship is the GO QUEST: http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/details/ships/shipid:450521/mmsi:367564890/imo:1155515/vessel:GO_QUEST

I'm not sure we can tell about the deck grid status -- looking at the pictures at http://www.heligrid.com/ for comparison, every picture which is not a close up looking directly downward shows the deck as "solid".  There are pictures of executives wearing heels walking across it as well, so the grid holes must be pretty small (well, they are pretty chunky heels).

I'm not saying that it is a heligrid, or a more standard mesh, or not.  I'm just saying that I don't think our pictures have the right combination of resolution and angle to tell.  (My current vote would be "standard mesh", based on the comments of other commenters here to the effect that solid steel would buckle under rocket exhaust, but I'm not claiming photographic evidence.)

@sghill you should also look at http://spaceflightnow.com/2014/12/16/photos-spacexs-autonomous-spaceport-drone-ship/ which has different angles.

I'm not sure that the structures off the port and starboard edges are "loading ramps".  They look like extra "wings" to me, that would normally be angled slightly upward to catch an off-target (or toppling?) stage.  I think they are folded down in port to allow the gangway access.  If my guess is right, I'd guess that the stage would approach the barge in the port-starboard direction, so that overshoots or skids will take it into the "wings", not into the equipment containers.

There also seems to be a second "crater" on the deck just outside the white circle.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 12/17/2014 02:31 PM
From spaceflightnow.com photograph. We can see one of the thrusters ?

EDIT: 'Stowed platform' is just supporting beams for overhanging wings
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: sghill on 12/17/2014 02:58 PM
I'm not sure that the structures off the port and starboard edges are "loading ramps".  They look like extra "wings" to me, that would normally be angled slightly upward to catch an off-target (or toppling?) stage.  I think they are folded down in port to allow the gangway access.  If my guess is right, I'd guess that the stage would approach the barge in the port-starboard direction, so that overshoots or skids will take it into the "wings", not into the equipment containers.

Step back a sec and think about what this barge looks like in relation to how it has to function.  With all that service deck equipment- especially as it's the same the same height as the flight deck- they're either going to be dead on target, or they're going to ditch the booster the ocean.  A few feet more of extra wings isn't going to save it.  The white circle may be an "abort" line, where if they are outside of the white circle AT ALL, they splash it.

The side ramps may not be load bearing at all, they may just be foldable safety fencing that sticks out further, but drops down for side access to the barge.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cscott on 12/17/2014 03:29 PM
The side ramps may not be load bearing at all, they may just be foldable safety fencing that sticks out further, but drops down for side access to the barge.
Yup, exactly what I'm saying.  Safety fencing, wings, whatever.  Maybe it's for people's safety, maybe they think it could help catch a tipping rocket, who knows.  All I'm saying is that it doesn't look seriously load bearing to me, and we agree on that, and that I think its position during a landing will be "tipped up" rather than "stowed" or "down".  Perhaps we agree on that as well.

I agree that jumping from 10km accuracy to 10m accuracy means that if they miss *on this flight*, they probably will miss by a lot not a little.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 12/17/2014 03:39 PM
From 10 km to 10 m... oh dear. This is three orders of magnitude.

I don't think it's like that.

There are several stages to re-entry.  We know terminal guidance is good to a few feet, if everything is under control when you enter the terminal phase.

The previous 10 km uncertainty was because there was no good way to control the aerodynamic portion of the flight against cross winds or initial variations in the trajectory. The RCS could keep the stage stable, but could not induce large enough AoA to actually counter a persistent wind.

With the grid fins, they believe they can take care of the 10 km, and then it's back to GH land.

So it's not like some mechanism has to improve by x1000
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: guckyfan on 12/17/2014 03:49 PM

With the grid fins, they believe they can take care of the 10 km, and then it's back to GH land.

So it's not like some mechanism has to improve by x1000

I fully agree. But it would not be surprising or a problem if they need to take lessons from the first try to succeed on second try. We can certainly hope for success this time but have no reason to worry if it does not work.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 12/17/2014 03:52 PM

With the grid fins, they believe they can take care of the 10 km, and then it's back to GH land.

So it's not like some mechanism has to improve by x1000

I fully agree. But it would not be surprising or a problem if they need to take lessons from the first try to succeed on second try. We can certainly hope for success this time but have no reason to worry if it does not work.

Yup.  My vote was that it is either a perfect landing, or not even near the barge. (>1 km)

There's a slim chance that the grid fins would get them almost, but not quite, to where the terminal landing phase can take over, and then it will be a near miss, but I think that's a low likelihood.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 12/17/2014 04:00 PM
Hey - can anyone here identify the comm equipment visible in the SpaceFlightNow images?

I spot a few domes that look to me like housing for radar equipment (they are also on the tubs), and one gimballed dish, (maybe 3' across?) that looks to be on the Go Quest.

Actually, the barge has two of the domes, one of each end.  Could this be related to the GPS system?  A dGPS base station?   I wonder if we can find such a dome at McGregor.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 12/17/2014 04:13 PM
Hey - can anyone here identify the comm equipment visible in the SpaceFlightNow images?

I spot a few domes that look to me like housing for radar equipment (they are also on the tubs), and one gimballed dish, (maybe 3' across?) that looks to be on the Go Quest.

Actually, the barge has two of the domes, one of each end.  Could this be related to the GPS system?  A dGPS base station?   I wonder if we can find such a dome at McGregor.

Yes, this is one of the domes on the deck of Go Quest:

http://www.cobham.com/media/967931/sailor_900_vsat_product_sheet.pdf


It's a stabilized VSAT (very small sperture terminal) antenna for Ku-band satellite broadband, with integrated GPS.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very-small-aperture_terminal

And this appears to be one of the domes on the ASDS:

http://www.kvh.com/Commercial-and-OEM/Maritime-Systems/Communications/mini-VSAT-Broadband/TracPhone-V11IP.aspx

http://www.marinelink.com/news/transmit-weather-data370307.aspx

You can see the KVH VSAT dome in the SFN photo of the Elsbeth III pushing the ASDS. The dome is atop the tan container, just to the left of the Elsbeth III.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Jim on 12/17/2014 04:26 PM
A dGPS base station?

That only works from a fixed point. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: robertross on 12/17/2014 04:56 PM
From spaceflightnow.com photograph. We can see one of the thrusters ?

That's affirmative. Good eye; I missed it in my overview.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 12/17/2014 05:45 PM
Hey - can anyone here identify the comm equipment visible in the SpaceFlightNow images?

I spot a few domes that look to me like housing for radar equipment (they are also on the tubs), and one gimballed dish, (maybe 3' across?) that looks to be on the Go Quest.

Actually, the barge has two of the domes, one of each end.  Could this be related to the GPS system?  A dGPS base station?   I wonder if we can find such a dome at McGregor.

Yes, this is one of the domes on the deck of Go Quest:

http://www.cobham.com/media/967931/sailor_900_vsat_product_sheet.pdf


It's a stabilized VSAT (very small sperture terminal) antenna for Ku-band satellite broadband, with integrated GPS.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very-small-aperture_terminal

And this appears to be one of the domes on the ASDS:

http://www.kvh.com/Commercial-and-OEM/Maritime-Systems/Communications/mini-VSAT-Broadband/TracPhone-V11IP.aspx

http://www.marinelink.com/news/transmit-weather-data370307.aspx

You can see the KVH VSAT dome in the SFN photo of the Elsbeth III pushing the ASDS. The dome is atop the tan container, just to the left of the Elsbeth III.

Ok!  thanks much.  I was hoping for that.  To confirm - is this sufficient to have live telecom during descent, at least from the barge?

-------

dGPS wise, of course it only works with a stationary station on regular use, since if the platform is moving, it will not have a steady basis...  Which normally would defeat the purpose...

But can it be used to get a precise determination of the relative distance vector to the moving base station?  So it won't help you know where you are in an absolute coordinate system, but will give you a good reading of where you are in the barge's coordinate system?

*Note - this is a bit hypothetical - we don't know if there's dGPS used at all. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 12/17/2014 06:01 PM
The Sailor 900 VSAT on board the Go Quest has an advertised max uplink rate of 256 kbps, so that is probably only good for VoIP, email, etc, not streaming video.

The KVH TracPhone on the barge has an advertised max uplink rate of 1 Mbps, so that could be adequate for low-resolution live video.

I don't think dGPS is necessary. WAAS GPS can be accurate to <1 meter, and it appears the landing zone will have good WAAS coverage.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Lar on 12/17/2014 06:04 PM
I spot a few domes that look to me like housing for radar equipment (they are also on the tubs), and one gimballed dish, (maybe 3' across?) that looks to be on the Go Quest.
(emphasis mine) Calling the support ships tubs rather than tugs is just mean :)

Actually, the barge has two of the domes, one of each end. 

Maybe that's directionality related? If there's no high point and you want to watch the forward direction of travel maybe you have 2?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 12/17/2014 06:10 PM
heh, yeah, tugs.  I think various sailors might have called them worse names over the course of time though...

bit-rate wise, I think even 0.25 MBps can do wonders if you're willing to encode the file and not stream it (thus incurring a 20-30 second delay).

For that matter, drop the frame rate, drop the resolution, until it goes through.   I'm not expecting 3D HD TV in real time.   Make it B&W.  I'll still tune in...

 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 12/17/2014 06:12 PM

Maybe that's directionality related? If there's no high point and you want to watch the forward direction of travel maybe you have 2?

The domes all look like VSATs, which are not directionally fixed, because they rotate automatically to acquire their satellites. I don't think they are radars.

The other unidentified dome on the barge is probably the same KVH TracPhone unit that I was able to identify on one end of the barge. The one on the far end is too far away to positively ID, but the markings look similar from a distance, and since the barge was purpose-built it seems likely that they'd use two of the same model.

Those will both likely be streaming video from the onboard cameras back to Hawthorne.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Lar on 12/17/2014 06:25 PM
I just meant that perhaps if you need LOS to something, having two copies of the thing might be advantageous, as other equipment might block things.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Jim on 12/17/2014 06:31 PM

But can it be used to get a precise determination of the relative distance vector to the moving base station?  So it won't help you know where you are in an absolute coordinate system, but will give you a good reading of where you are in the barge's coordinate system?
 

No, because GPS is absolute and dGPS is just a refinement of the absolute location.  The location of the dGPS transmitter is known and so it broadcasts the difference between its known position and what the GPS constellation says it is. This is then used to reduce the absolute error. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: joncz on 12/17/2014 07:52 PM
An approach land surveying crews use that works over short time periods is to locate their GPS receiver on a well known point (a survey benchmark), allow it to get a good GPS solution, and zero out the error.  This gives them a point in time reference similar to how dGPS works.  Increasing time from when the receiver was zeroed out along with distance from the benchmark produce increasing errors in location.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: mme on 12/17/2014 08:17 PM
..
bit-rate wise, I think even 0.25 MBps can do wonders if you're willing to encode the file and not stream it (thus incurring a 20-30 second delay).

For that matter, drop the frame rate, drop the resolution, until it goes through.   I'm not expecting 3D HD TV in real time.   Make it B&W.  I'll still tune in...

..., and since the barge was purpose-built it seems likely that they'd use two of the same model.

Those will both likely be streaming video from the onboard cameras back to Hawthorne.
I would love to watch this event real-time or near realtime.  But I doubt they are counting on getting the maximum possible throughput from their uplinks as that would be a bad assumption.  I would dedicate redundant resources to the telemetry, not the video.  Frankly, I wouldn't dedicate anything to the video.  I'd store it on multiple SSDs on the barge.

But that's me and hopefully I'm wrong.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 12/17/2014 08:19 PM

But can it be used to get a precise determination of the relative distance vector to the moving base station?  So it won't help you know where you are in an absolute coordinate system, but will give you a good reading of where you are in the barge's coordinate system?
 

No, because GPS is absolute and dGPS is just a refinement of the absolute location.  The location of the dGPS transmitter is known and so it broadcasts the difference between its known position and what the GPS constellation says it is. This is then used to reduce the absolute error.
I know that.  But if you think it through, if you eliminate the bit about the base being fixed, all you have left is the relative position vector between the two receivers, which is normally useless, but in this particular case is exactly what they need.

Nobody cares if the rocket nails the landing at center barge, but the whole thing happens 10 feet to the north.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 12/17/2014 08:22 PM
..
bit-rate wise, I think even 0.25 MBps can do wonders if you're willing to encode the file and not stream it (thus incurring a 20-30 second delay).

For that matter, drop the frame rate, drop the resolution, until it goes through.   I'm not expecting 3D HD TV in real time.   Make it B&W.  I'll still tune in...

..., and since the barge was purpose-built it seems likely that they'd use two of the same model.

Those will both likely be streaming video from the onboard cameras back to Hawthorne.
I would love to watch this event real-time or near realtime.  But I doubt they are counting on getting the maximum possible throughput from their uplinks as that would be a bad assumption.  I would dedicate redundant resources to the telemetry, not the video.  Frankly, I wouldn't dedicate anything to the video.  I'd store it on multiple SSDs on the barge.

But that's me and hopefully I'm wrong.
That's true for getting data off the rocket, but unless you worry about the barge sinking, everything can be stored on the barge (including high rez video) and downloaded 5 minutes later.

Rocket-originated video, I agree.  Get the telemetry first.   But that's a direct link at close range, no satellites involved.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 12/17/2014 08:34 PM
However they do it, they have a bunch of bandwidth. ASDS appears to have two VSAT antennas each with 1 Mbps uplink, and the Go Quest appears to have multiple VSATs plus the dish antenna.

Won't need that homemade pizza pan antenna in the window of Elon's plane now.  ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: mme on 12/17/2014 08:38 PM
...
I would love to watch this event real-time or near realtime.  But I doubt they are counting on getting the maximum possible throughput from their uplinks as that would be a bad assumption.  I would dedicate redundant resources to the telemetry, not the video.  Frankly, I wouldn't dedicate anything to the video.  I'd store it on multiple SSDs on the barge.

But that's me and hopefully I'm wrong.
That's true for getting data off the rocket, but unless you worry about the barge sinking, everything can be stored on the barge (including high rez video) and downloaded 5 minutes later.

Rocket-originated video, I agree.  Get the telemetry first.   But that's a direct link at close range, no satellites involved.
You're right.  There's no reason they couldn't store the data and then queue it for transmission immediately after the landing. I'm still not confident that they'll share it immediately, but you've convinced me that Hawthorne will likely have video soon after the attempt.

Great, now I'm wishing for a pony... ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: JamesH on 12/17/2014 08:48 PM
As a datum, decent 1080p30 H264 video needs about 15Mbits/s (let's say approx 2MB per second). You can drop it right back to 2 or 3 with some noticeable losses and artifacts, and that's probably not worth it. Better to store and either transmit later or pick up the cards later.

I'd have the barge covered in cameras pointing in all directions, plus some on remote control mounts. They are cheap enough.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: mvpel on 12/17/2014 09:32 PM
As a datum, decent 1080p30 H264 video needs about 15Mbits/s (let's say approx 2MB per second). You can drop it right back to 2 or 3 with some noticeable losses and artifacts, and that's probably not worth it. Better to store and either transmit later or pick up the cards later.

The CRS-3 video was MPEG4 Part 2 15fps NTSC (roughly 640x480) with a fixed bitrate, but I don't recall offhand what the rate was - maybe one of the other folks remembers. It was coming from the rocket, so it can't have been wildly excessive, and it could have been lower if they hadn't had the interlacing. With the ASDS and the Go Quest available for reception through a good portion of the booster's flight profile, and quite close to the most interesting parts of it, it seems like they'd be in pretty good shape for some very exciting live video, even if it's not lush 1080p30.  A cursory web search reveals wireless cameras that can deliver an 800x450 H.264 video stream at 30fps on only 750kbps.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 12/17/2014 10:10 PM
A cursory web search reveals wireless cameras that can deliver an 800x450 H.264 video stream at 30fps on only 750kbps.

For comparison, my wireless home security "cloud cam" streams 640x480 H.264 at 30 fps but it uses 4Mbps in color and 3 Mbps in B&W, so the 750kbps you quote above for more pixels seems rather optimistic.

But at a minimum, they should be able to get 10 fps or so live at Hawthorne, and as has been said, they can record it all at higher fps/resolution and uplink it in a matter of minutes after the fact.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Jim on 12/17/2014 10:13 PM

I know that.  But if you think it through, if you eliminate the bit about the base being fixed, all you have left is the relative position vector between the two receivers, which is normally useless, but in this particular case is exactly what they need.


No, in dGPS, the fixed base is only transmitting the GPS error and not its location. So there is no relative vector derive.  Yes, you can put a GPS on the barge and transmit its location to do what you say but that is not dGPS. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: mme on 12/17/2014 10:13 PM
As a datum, decent 1080p30 H264 video needs about 15Mbits/s (let's say approx 2MB per second). You can drop it right back to 2 or 3 with some noticeable losses and artifacts, and that's probably not worth it. Better to store and either transmit later or pick up the cards later.

The CRS-3 video was MPEG4 Part 2 15fps NTSC (roughly 640x480) with a fixed bitrate, but I don't recall offhand what the rate was - maybe one of the other folks remembers. It was coming from the rocket, so it can't have been wildly excessive, and it could have been lower if they hadn't had the interlacing. With the ASDS and the Go Quest available for reception through a good portion of the booster's flight profile, and quite close to the most interesting parts of it, it seems like they'd be in pretty good shape for some very exciting live video, even if it's not lush 1080p30.  A cursory web search reveals wireless cameras that can deliver an 800x450 H.264 video stream at 30fps on only 750kbps.
I think the low quality of the video on the booster is related to limited band width of the transmission from the rocket.  It would seem the higher the quality of the video, the more useful it is.  If they can store the video for later transmission (or recovery via boat/sneaker-net), my bet is that they will go prefer higher resolution and lower lossiness.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 12/17/2014 11:27 PM
Honestly, if we have any kind of live coverage, I don't care if it's audio only of someone watching it, and then 5 minutes later they upload the video, that's perfectly fine.

I was just hoping they didn't leave it so that "video will be available when the barge makes it to shore" or some such.

That said, live video would be cool, even if 640x480 at 15 FPS.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: sanman on 12/18/2014 12:59 AM
So conceivably, what would be the situation where you have the most simultaneous ocean-landings required at the same time? Could you have a Falcon Heavy launch which required 3 barges to be simultaneously present out in the Atlantic as landing pads? Or would the side-boosters be able to land back at the launch point without requiring barge-landings?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 12/18/2014 04:13 AM
So conceivably, what would be the situation where you have the most simultaneous ocean-landings required at the same time? Could you have a Falcon Heavy launch which required 3 barges to be simultaneously present out in the Atlantic as landing pads? Or would the side-boosters be able to land back at the launch point without requiring barge-landings?

Boosters would land back at the launch site. Only the core would land downrange on the barge.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 12/18/2014 08:00 AM
I have identified another one of Barge bits. Four of the yellow bits are very sturdy fuel tanks made by 'National Oilwell Varco"
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: MP99 on 12/18/2014 08:38 AM


So conceivably, what would be the situation where you have the most simultaneous ocean-landings required at the same time? Could you have a Falcon Heavy launch which required 3 barges to be simultaneously present out in the Atlantic as landing pads? Or would the side-boosters be able to land back at the launch point without requiring barge-landings?

Boosters would land back at the launch site. Only the core would land downrange on the barge.

It's one of the upsides of crossfeed that the boosters burn out sooner, have gone less distance downrange, and are going slower. So they need to reserve less prop for the boostback, and can commit more to the launch.

Conversely, initial FHs probably won't use crossfeed, so there would be more performance loss from RTLS, and more benefit to landing them on their own barge / barges.

However, I suspect that the initial FH payloads will be within the capability of booster RTLS + core-forward-to-a-barge. So this seems the most likely to me. I believe this is the config that SpaceX offer on their website as "$85m (for) up to 6.4 mT to GTO".

Cheers, Martin
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: JamesH on 12/18/2014 08:59 AM
Quote from: mvpel  A cursory web search reveals wireless cameras that can deliver an 800x450 H.264 video stream at 30fps on only 750kbps.
[/quote

The quality at that biitrate is going to be fairly bad. Watchable, but blocky and fuzzy.

Better to reduce the resolution than try and encode at higher resolution when limited by bandwidth.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: IslandPlaya on 12/18/2014 10:44 AM
Quote
The quality at that biitrate is going to be fairly bad. Watchable, but blocky and fuzzy.

Better to reduce the resolution than try and encode at higher resolution when limited by bandwidth.

Much better if SpaceX were to use the latest H.265 codec...
See this 1920x1080 sample with 48KHz stereo sound at 815Kbps. Perfect quality!

http://www.cinemartin.com/cinec/_Sample_Videos/Hoid/Cinemartin_A001_C001_1008BA_2_H265_HEVC_RQ.mp4

 :o
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 12/18/2014 12:08 PM
Support ship Go Quest pulled back into Jacksonville this morning and docked around 5:20 am at the same dock where she had been with the ASDS previously.

She turned her AIS transponder back on about a mile offshore, so evidently this is going to be standard practice with the support ships, turning AIS transponders off so they cannot be tracked offshore, and turning them back on near port.

The Elsbeth III still has her AIS transponder turned off and so is incommunicado. She left port Tuesday several hours before Go Quest, so I guess she will be back in port later today.

Update: Elsbeth III just came back up on AIS around 8:30 this morning, about 50 miles offshore, heading for Jacksonville.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: mfck on 12/18/2014 01:28 PM
Update: Elsbeth III just came back up on AIS around 8:30 this morning, about 50 miles offshore, heading for Jacksonville.

With ASDS or alone?

Edit:  ahh, OK rushed with the question, I guess
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: JamesH on 12/18/2014 02:17 PM
Quote
The quality at that biitrate is going to be fairly bad. Watchable, but blocky and fuzzy.

Better to reduce the resolution than try and encode at higher resolution when limited by bandwidth.

Much better if SpaceX were to use the latest H.265 codec...
See this 1920x1080 sample with 48KHz stereo sound at 815Kbps. Perfect quality!

http://www.cinemartin.com/cinec/_Sample_Videos/Hoid/Cinemartin_A001_C001_1008BA_2_H265_HEVC_RQ.mp4

 :o

Same quality at half the bitrate (on average), but not many mobile solution out there yet. It's mostly H264 but with variable sized macroblocks which is much harder to compress at low power in real time, hence few camera out there using it yet. They will, it's the only way of transmitting 4k without blowing the bandwidth budget, but it's a difficult and time consuming job designing and making the chips to do it.

H264 will be here for quite some time.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: sghill on 12/18/2014 03:45 PM
Support ship Go Quest pulled back into Jacksonville this morning and docked around 5:20 am at the same dock where she had been with the ASDS previously.

All right NSF-ers near Jacksonville, let's see some photos of that barge!  Have your spouse drive while you hang out the van window to get some shots from the I-295 bridge! :>
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 12/18/2014 04:12 PM
Support ship Go Quest pulled back into Jacksonville this morning and docked around 5:20 am at the same dock where she had been with the ASDS previously.

All right NSF-ers near Jacksonville, let's see some photos of that barge!  Have your spouse drive while you hang out the van window to get some shots from the I-295 bridge! :>

Don't hurry, because Elsbeth III, and presumably ASDS, probably won't make port until after dark tonight.

PS...Heckscher Drive bridge is closer.  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Eer on 12/18/2014 04:19 PM
Support ship Go Quest pulled back into Jacksonville this morning and docked around 5:20 am at the same dock where she had been with the ASDS previously.

All right NSF-ers near Jacksonville, let's see some photos of that barge!  Have your spouse drive while you hang out the van window to get some shots from the I-295 bridge! :>

Don't hurry, because Elsbeth III, and presumably ASDS, probably won't make port until after dark tonight.

I'll be driving through on Tuesday and could be persuaded to look around a bit, if I know where to look.  Possible alternate following Sunday.  I'll look around for geocoordinates, but if anyone has a googlemap link to the dock, I'd appreciate it.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 12/18/2014 04:28 PM
Coordinates from forumite ClayJar:

Quote
The ASDS was moored at coordinates: 30° 24.56' N  81° 34.97' W (adjacent to the Carnival Cruise Lines terminal building at the Jacksonville Port Authority)

If you plug those coordinates into Google Earth you'll see a narrow white walkway/pier sticking out from land just south of the Heckscher drive bridge. That's where the ASDS should be.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Eer on 12/18/2014 04:46 PM
So, Heckscher Drive (FL 105) bridge would provide some views, but better would be to go to the Carnival terminal and see what I can see...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 12/18/2014 04:56 PM
So, Heckscher Drive (FL 105) bridge would provide some views, but better would be to go to the Carnival terminal and see what I can see...

All of Stephen Clark's photos at Spaceflightnow appear to have been taken from the bridge, so he probably couldn't get close enough on land.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: mheney on 12/18/2014 05:32 PM
Wonder if we can rent the barge out for a Holiday party?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Helodriver on 12/18/2014 05:43 PM
Support ship Go Quest pulled back into Jacksonville this morning and docked around 5:20 am at the same dock where she had been with the ASDS previously.

She turned her AIS transponder back on about a mile offshore, so evidently this is going to be standard practice with the support ships, turning AIS transponders off so they cannot be tracked offshore, and turning them back on near port.

The Elsbeth III still has her AIS transponder turned off and so is incommunicado. She left port Tuesday several hours before Go Quest, so I guess she will be back in port later today.

Update: Elsbeth III just came back up on AIS around 8:30 this morning, about 50 miles offshore, heading for Jacksonville.

They have taken up this practice with their Dragon recoveries in the Pacific too.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: mvpel on 12/18/2014 07:48 PM
They have taken up this practice with their Dragon recoveries in the Pacific too.

When they were first kitting out the SBX-1, they jerry-rigged one of the rack-mounted devices so that it wouldn't show the GPS coordinates of the vessel on the front panel display, and the last time it sent an AIS update was August 2011. ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cscott on 12/19/2014 12:32 AM
They have taken up this practice with their Dragon recoveries in the Pacific too.

When they were first kitting out the SBX-1, they jerry-rigged one of the rack-mounted devices so that it wouldn't show the GPS coordinates of the vessel on the front panel display, and the last time it sent an AIS update was August 2011. ;)

The SPX-1 is the recovery ship for Dragon?  And I'm assuming the captain knows the exact GPS coordinates -- who else is on board who they didn't want to casually see coordinates?

The notices to mariners and the FCC license give a pretty good idea of the first stage landing location.  I wonder why they take the trouble to hide their location -- surely turning off AIS makes things a little more difficult to avoid trouble and/or summon help in case they run into trouble.  Smells like a bureaucratic bit of ITAR to me.  Does anyone know the actual reason?

I'm curious if the exact coordinates of the Orion recovery ships were published?  OTOH those were navy resources, so one would expect a certain level of secrecy there.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: deruch on 12/19/2014 01:08 AM
They have taken up this practice with their Dragon recoveries in the Pacific too.

When they were first kitting out the SBX-1, they jerry-rigged one of the rack-mounted devices so that it wouldn't show the GPS coordinates of the vessel on the front panel display, and the last time it sent an AIS update was August 2011. ;)

I'm curious if the exact coordinates of the Orion recovery ships were published?  OTOH those were navy resources, so one would expect a certain level of secrecy there.

Plus the Navy has big guns to discourage interlopers.   8)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: mfck on 12/19/2014 10:26 AM
The SPX-1 is the recovery ship for Dragon?

SBX-1 (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea-based_X-band_Radar)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 12/19/2014 02:52 PM
Elsbeth III docked this morning at 4:00 am. She and Go Quest are back in their crib...empty.  :'(

Edit: empty meaning "without rocket", not without ASDS, which I assume they brought back.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cscott on 12/19/2014 03:39 PM
Elsbeth III docked this morning at 4:00 am. She and Go Quest are back in their crib...empty.  :'(

Maybe they were serious about that "autonomous drone" part, and the barge is out there station-keeping?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 12/19/2014 05:14 PM
Elsbeth III docked this morning at 4:00 am. She and Go Quest are back in their crib...empty.  :'(

Maybe they were serious about that "autonomous drone" part, and the barge is out there station-keeping?

I'm sure they're serious about it being autonomous, but I doubt they'd leave it untended 200 miles out for 2+ weeks. A bad storm or an autopilot failure could knock it into free drift, and then someone has to go out and chase it through the Gulf Stream...assuming the beacon still works and they can actually find it.

Or, they get back out there and find the barge up on cinder blocks with the mag wheels gone.  ;)

(Or better yet, they get back out there and find a bunch of NSFers having a wild party on deck! The possibilities are endless.  ;D)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: The Roadie on 12/19/2014 09:12 PM
(Or better yet, they get back out there and find a bunch of NSFers having a wild party on deck! The possibilities are endless.  ;D )
This sort of party?
(http://s.mcstatic.com/thumb/7525986/20575506/4/flash_player/0/1/independence_day_film_times_up.jpg)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Llian Rhydderch on 12/19/2014 11:58 PM
Elsbeth III docked this morning at 4:00 am. She and Go Quest are back in their crib...empty.  :'(

If Elsbeth III is back in port, without the ASDS; and GoQuest is also, ... 

Then unless they did a tug switch (possible, but not likely), the ASDS is either holding in place, or motoring around a bit on a test drive sea trial of its new propulsion and control system.  Either way, maritime law and customs being what they are, we might assume (but not be absolutely certain) that it is manned during this period.

If it is doing the latter, and not merely holding in place like an oil platform with azimuth thrusters out in one fixed place where the (now future) landing is slated to occur, then the ASDS does fit the technical definition of a ship, rather than a mere schmere barge.

In that case, the Marmac 300 that was refit by SpaceX to become the "Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship" (Elon's name for it) may truly be a ship, and not a barge.

Perhaps it is just a technical distinction, but the Elsbeth III coming back empty does raise the interesting possibility of the ASDS steaming around to shake out the bugs, at 3 knots.
:o

Edited to correct misunderstanding, fixed by Kabloona in next post, but a misimpression shared by other NSFers above.

It appears that, as of right now, we have no evidence one way or the other whether ASDS is back in port, or not.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 12/20/2014 12:06 AM
When I said Elsbeth III and Go Quest came back "empty" I meant without a rocket, not without the ASDS.

Yes, I'm only assuming they did not leave the ASDS out motoring around on its own. But forumite Eer said he will be passing through JAX on Tuesday, so he should be able to get a visual.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 12/20/2014 01:38 PM
I have visual confirmation that ASDS is back in port. The Carnival ship Fascination is docked right behind it and has a forward-looking bridge webcam. ASDS is in full view of the webcam:

http://www.cruisin.me/cruisecams/ships/carnival_cruise_lines/carnival_fascination.php

Fascination will be leaving port this afternoon, but will be back in port for departures on Wednesday 24th, then Monday 29th, then Saturday Jan 3rd for more live viewing opportunities.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cartman on 12/20/2014 01:48 PM
And here is an image from the above webcam
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: hrissan on 12/20/2014 02:02 PM
I have visual confirmation that ASDS is back in port. The Carnival ship Fascination is docked right behind it and has a forward-looking bridge webcam. ASDS is in full view of the webcam:

http://www.cruisin.me/cruisecams/ships/carnival_cruise_lines/carnival_fascination.php

Fascination will be leaving port this afternoon, but will be back in port for departures on Wednesday 24th, then Monday 29th, then Saturday Jan 3rd for more live viewing opportunities.
Should you have "sherlock holmes" added to your forum title? No idea how you dug it up, pretty impressive!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: ugordan on 12/20/2014 02:04 PM
White-balanced a little:
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 12/20/2014 02:07 PM
I have visual confirmation that ASDS is back in port. The Carnival ship Fascination is docked right behind it and has a forward-looking bridge webcam. ASDS is in full view of the webcam:

http://www.cruisin.me/cruisecams/ships/carnival_cruise_lines/carnival_fascination.php

Fascination will be leaving port this afternoon, but will be back in port for departures on Wednesday 24th, then Monday 29th, then Saturday Jan 3rd for more live viewing opportunities.
Should you have "sherlock holmes" added to your forum title? No idea how you dug it up, pretty impressive!

Thanks, hrissan.  ;) It occurred to me to search for webcams in the Jacksonville port area. I had no idea that cruise ships also had webcams, but Google did. But when I checked the MarineTraffic app last night, no cruise ships were docked near the support ships. I checked MarineTraffic again this morning, and bingo, Carnival Fascination was docked right next to the support ships. Pulled up the forward webcam, and there it was! Ain't the Internet amazing...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: daver on 12/20/2014 04:07 PM
I just took a drive down to the Port Authority.   The closest you can get is the bridge on 105.  I took a couple of pics but the cruise ship cam is the best view unless you have a ticket for the cruise ship.


edit to add photo
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: docmordrid on 12/20/2014 05:00 PM
Tuned it up a tad
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: sanman on 12/20/2014 05:07 PM
White-balanced a little:

Underneath each of the upper deck "wings" are supports which come up at ~20deg angle. Below the support on the right-hand side, you see something protruding into the water which has roughly the shape of an outboard motor. Is that one of those much-discussed propulsion units that's supposed to maintain the ~3m-precision positioning of the barge?

Another thing I'm noticing is the white railing all around the upper deck. I'm guessing it's a few feet in height - so I guess that doesn't pose any risk to a landing booster. And jutting out from the deck "wings" are those black gang-plank things. So I guess those are used for rolling cargo onto and off of the deck. After a recovered booster is transported back to a dock, then I guess that booster would have to be rolled off via those gang-planks onto terra firma?



Somehow from the older barge pictures, I'd thought that the lower deck was a lot lower than the upper deck. But here with this newer side-view it seems that there's barely any difference at all in elevation.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 12/20/2014 05:18 PM
I have visual confirmation that ASDS is back in port. The Carnival ship Fascination is docked right behind it and has a forward-looking bridge webcam. ASDS is in full view of the webcam:

http://www.cruisin.me/cruisecams/ships/carnival_cruise_lines/carnival_fascination.php

Fascination will be leaving port this afternoon, but will be back in port for departures on Wednesday 24th, then Monday 29th, then Saturday Jan 3rd for more live viewing opportunities.

THAT is serious Cyber-Sluthing.  No Kidding.  How did you come up with it?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 12/20/2014 05:42 PM
I have visual confirmation that ASDS is back in port. The Carnival ship Fascination is docked right behind it and has a forward-looking bridge webcam. ASDS is in full view of the webcam:

http://www.cruisin.me/cruisecams/ships/carnival_cruise_lines/carnival_fascination.php

Fascination will be leaving port this afternoon, but will be back in port for departures on Wednesday 24th, then Monday 29th, then Saturday Jan 3rd for more live viewing opportunities.

Genius  ;D. I hope this feed doesn't pay the price of being known...stay away Gandalf! mmmm need a way to capture these frames.


White-balanced a little:
<snip>
After a recovered booster is transported back to a dock, then I guess that booster would have to be rolled off via those gang-planks onto terra firma?

It would probably just get hauled off by two cranes.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 12/20/2014 06:11 PM
I have visual confirmation that ASDS is back in port. The Carnival ship Fascination is docked right behind it and has a forward-looking bridge webcam. ASDS is in full view of the webcam:

http://www.cruisin.me/cruisecams/ships/carnival_cruise_lines/carnival_fascination.php

Fascination will be leaving port this afternoon, but will be back in port for departures on Wednesday 24th, then Monday 29th, then Saturday Jan 3rd for more live viewing opportunities.

THAT is serious Cyber-Sluthing.  No Kidding.  How did you come up with it?

Thanks, short story here:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36326.msg1305394#msg1305394

plus a little bit of luck.  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 12/20/2014 06:20 PM
White-balanced a little:

Underneath each of the upper deck "wings" are supports which come up at ~20deg angle. Below the support on the right-hand side, you see something protruding into the water which has roughly the shape of an outboard motor. Is that one of those much-discussed propulsion units that's supposed to maintain the ~3m-precision positioning of the barge?


That's my guess. You can see more about the drive units here:

http://www.thrustmaster.net/out-drive-propulsion-unit/portable-dynamic-positioning-system/

The blue boxes on ASDS with the exhaust mufflers on top are probably the diesel units that supply hydraulic power to the drives, and someone else identified the yellow boxes as diesel fuel tanks.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: jabe on 12/20/2014 06:36 PM
I wrote  a program a YEARS ago to capture changing jpgs off internet (mainly for animation of mars landing)..so was going to capture pics of the barge but now the camera is offline for me.....dam :)
jb
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 12/20/2014 06:40 PM
I wrote  a program a YEARS ago to capture changing jpgs off internet (mainly for animation of mars landing)..so was going to capture pics of the barge but now the camera is offline for me.....dam :)
jb

Try again, maybe with different browser, webcam is still up. Also note, ship will be leaving 4:00 pm Eastern today, so you might get a better view as the ship leaves dock.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: jabe on 12/20/2014 06:46 PM
mm..telling me web page is not available..worked before..odd..
will keep trying
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 12/20/2014 07:03 PM
I just opened the firefox's web tools network tab and it seems to be capturing the frames  :o

EDIT: Reddit users are recording it :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: deruch on 12/20/2014 07:32 PM
I just took a drive down to the Port Authority.   The closest you can get is the bridge on 105.  I took a couple of pics but the cruise ship cam is the best view unless you have a ticket for the cruise ship.


edit to add photo

Find someone with a ticket and get them to stand on the prow and take a bunch of photos and email them to you or upload them!!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Eer on 12/20/2014 07:42 PM
I have visual confirmation that ASDS is back in port. The Carnival ship Fascination is docked right behind it and has a forward-looking bridge webcam. ASDS is in full view of the webcam:

http://www.cruisin.me/cruisecams/ships/carnival_cruise_lines/carnival_fascination.php

Fascination will be leaving port this afternoon, but will be back in port for departures on Wednesday 24th, then Monday 29th, then Saturday Jan 3rd for more live viewing opportunities.
Should you have "sherlock holmes" added to your forum title? No idea how you dug it up, pretty impressive!

Thanks, hrissan.  ;) It occurred to me to search for webcams in the Jacksonville port area. I had no idea that cruise ships also had webcams, but Google did. But when I checked the MarineTraffic app last night, no cruise ships were docked near the support ships. I checked MarineTraffic again this morning, and bingo, Carnival Fascination was docked right next to the support ships. Pulled up the forward webcam, and there it was! Ain't the Internet amazing...

Okay - what we REALLY need is to get the barge outfitted with a couple of webcams and registered with that website ... though I suppose the cruise ships make use of their onboard internet connections ... where's the Internet of Everything when you need it?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 12/20/2014 08:37 PM
Carnival Fascination leaving port, final view of ASDS:

Edit: oops, there was a final pic of the ASDS here but then it turned into a billboard...guess I did it wrong.  :o
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: kch on 12/20/2014 08:41 PM

Carnival Fascination leaving port, final view of ASDS:

(http://www.cruisin.me/cruisecams/ships/carnival_cruise_lines/camera_images/carnival_fascination.jpg?ver=1419111005732)

Fascinating ... ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 12/20/2014 08:41 PM

Carnival Fascination leaving port, final view of ASDS:

(http://www.cruisin.me/cruisecams/ships/carnival_cruise_lines/camera_images/carnival_fascination.jpg?ver=1419111005732)

Free advertising!!!

There was someone at the door, I went, I came back, damn.  Gone.

Which ship is next? Maybe we can get the view while incoming?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 12/20/2014 08:50 PM
The only upcoming Carnival departures I can find from JAX are:

Wed 24th
Mon 29th
Jan 3rd

These are all Fascination cruises. The ship arrives in JAX port 8:00 am and departs same day 4:00 pm.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: lark on 12/20/2014 08:51 PM
Here are a few frames while leaving port.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 12/20/2014 09:00 PM
The only upcoming Carnival departures I can find from JAX are:

Wed 24th
Mon 29th
Jan 3rd

These are all Fascination cruises. The ship arrives in JAX port 8:00 am and departs same day 4:00 pm.

So I need to be watching on Wed 24th, 5 am local....

I can pretend to be doing Santa duty, but odds are I'll miss it...

I have a local friend that might make a sight seeing trip, we'll see.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 12/20/2014 09:04 PM
By the way what are these on container?

EDIT: May be something like
http://www.infraredcamerasinc.com/Thermal-Cameras/X32-Pan-Tilt-Infrared-Thermal-Imaging-System.html
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cscott on 12/20/2014 09:13 PM
By the way what are these on container?

EDIT: May be something like
http://www.infraredcamerasinc.com/Thermal-Cameras/X32-Pan-Tilt-Infrared-Thermal-Imaging-System.html

Small weather station?  Looks like an anemometer to me.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: MTom on 12/20/2014 09:23 PM
Here are a few frames while leaving port.

Is there a side extension to see on both side of the ASDS? Theese are new compared to first-ever photo tweeted by Elon.

It could be measured on the third photo very well.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: deruch on 12/20/2014 09:26 PM
Where is Clay with his kayak when we need him?   8)

(still in Louisiana; I know, I know)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 12/20/2014 09:55 PM
Here are a few frames while leaving port.

Is there a side extension to see on both side of the ASDS? Theese are new compared to first-ever photo tweeted by Elon.

It could be measured on the third photo very well.

Yes, one on each side, about 1/3 width of the 35' side wing, so around 10-12' wide, probably safety/boarding platforms to aid moving big things on/off and prevent people/tools/etc from falling into the water between the wing and the dock.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: darkenfast on 12/21/2014 02:57 AM
The NASASpaceFlight Intelligence Department scores again!  Good job, guys!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: ClayJar on 12/21/2014 04:02 AM
Where is Clay with his kayak when we need him?   8)

(still in Louisiana; I know, I know)
The Carnival webcam view has a far better angle than anything I could get from water level, but I've thought about a quick post-Christmas run over to Jacksonville.  It's less than three miles by water from the canoe/kayak launch at Reddie Point Preserve to the ASDS location, and Jacksonville's only nine hours away from Baton Rouge.

Obviously, I'm not going to paddle right up to it, but if anyone can come up with a good reason to want water-level photos, Monday *is* my last work day until January 5th...  8)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: darkenfast on 12/21/2014 04:10 AM
Okay, I just had a crazy image of the tug and barge heading out for the launch and landing, with nobody noticing the guy in the kayak tied to the off-side, with a bunch of cameras around his neck!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Lar on 12/21/2014 06:12 AM
Just everyone please be safe and sane (and relatively sober)... don't actually try to stowaway and don't drive 20 hours just to get a quick snap unless you wanted to go to JAX anyway...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: hrissan on 12/21/2014 09:39 AM
Just everyone please be safe and sane (and relatively sober)... don't actually try to stowaway and don't drive 20 hours just to get a quick snap unless you wanted to go to JAX anyway...
I will just post it here (story in english): http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/russian-roofers-free-ride-on-battleship-aurora-in-daring-stunt-video/507521.html

http://youtu.be/7Tbm-cgpGfg

http://youtu.be/TPgMnCNXSDw

P.S. In USA you have probably much more chances to being shot or sued to death if you try this (than in Russia)... So never try this...

Those guys were "punished" by forcing them to drink tea in the company of captain and police officers. :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: mvpel on 12/21/2014 01:37 PM
Obviously, I'm not going to paddle right up to it, but if anyone can come up with a good reason to want water-level photos, Monday *is* my last work day until January 5th...  8)

Well, certainly folks have been curious about the wing structures, and the Thrustmasters. And I think you'd still be able to get a decent photo angle on the equipment on deck even from a kayak. Plus you could do some ocean kayaking while you're there; and the weather on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday looks lovely and will be much warmer than Baton Rouge.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 12/21/2014 01:56 PM
CAD drawings of OD300N model from Thrustmaster website also match with ASDS images as guessed by eriblo here (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36140.msg1292963#msg1292963)

Quote
OD-300N Hydraulic Outboard thruster Unit with Nautronix JSDP5000 Dynamic Positioning System (DP-1 Class) Controller,
Manufactured 2003 with only 500 hours use.
Thrusters:  (4) hydraulic ASTM A36 Carbon Steel thrusters yielding 8,000 lbf each, propellers 39”, bi-directional 4-blade Kaplan, manganese-broze with Kort 19-A nozzle (540 rpm), Mounting:  thruster o mini-skid, positioned and attached according to vessel structural members, weight 5,800 lbs e ach
Hydraulic power units:
(4) Cat 3406 diesel engines 360 BHP @ 1800 rpm (full load,
Fuel consumption 17.5 US Gal per hour at full load,
Day tank capacity 150 US gallons.
Dimensions:  11’4-3/4” Long x 5’7” wide x 9’3” high.
Note:  an additional 3’ is minimum clearance required at both ends of HPU for air inflow and outflow, making effectfive length requirement of 17’ 4-3/4”,
Weight 11,300 lbs each.
Placement:  within 50’ of thruster, connecting hose bundle: 6 hoses, overall diameter of 6”
Price:  $950,000

http://www.sunmachinery.com/Marinecomponents.html

By looks HPU(minus exhaust) is of almost same height with Cherrypicker ( Teupen LEO 23GT ) ~6'5" vs ~6'11' while it is on its legs.

So what are those five white containers and another small one? May be generators and comm equipment.. Also the closeup pic by Stephen Clark show a small gate cut out from yellow beam to let that cute cherrypicker out.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: daver on 12/21/2014 02:28 PM
Where is Clay with his kayak when we need him?   8)

(still in Louisiana; I know, I know)
The Carnival webcam view has a far better angle than anything I could get from water level, but I've thought about a quick post-Christmas run over to Jacksonville.  It's less than three miles by water from the canoe/kayak launch at Reddie Point Preserve to the ASDS location, and Jacksonville's only nine hours away from Baton Rouge.

Obviously, I'm not going to paddle right up to it, but if anyone can come up with a good reason to want water-level photos, Monday *is* my last work day until January 5th...  8)

There is a bridge on 105 that you can park under and launch a kayak or canoe.   Its pretty close (300 or 400 yards) from the Port Authority / barge.    That would be the best way to get close other than buying a cruise ship ticket.    Add a drone and you would be in like flynn. 


edit:  I'll be driving by the barge location omw home to SC today.  I'll swing by again and take a picture of the bridge area.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cscott on 12/21/2014 04:04 PM
If we're making wish lists, I'd love to see some up-close detail of the deck surface.  Is it gridded?  I don't know that we'll ever get images close enough to tell, unless courtesy of a friendly kayaker. ;)
I'm also curious about those wing structures -- the latest photos make the wings look fairly permanent, which means there's no way the barge will fit through the panama canal to service vandenberg.  A kayak view might be able to determine if there's any evidence of hinge structure.

Okan -- is there anything else you'd like to see better in order to refine your 3d models for rendering?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: mvpel on 12/21/2014 04:36 PM
CAD drawings of OD300N model from Thrustmaster website also match with ASDS images as guessed by eriblo here (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36140.msg1292963#msg1292963)

That last photo was an "ah ha" moment for me - I was wondering if the thrusters were able to apply force to keep the barge level, as well as holding its position, but I wasn't able to find anything definitive while browsing the Thrustmaster website. Once I saw that photo I realized that you could do it with the deployment/stowing hydraulics - the two silver pistons we see in the foreground of the equipment.

By bringing the nacelle arm upward to something less than a 90 degree angle, the propellers can apply Z-axis forces - with varying amounts of cosine loss depending on the angle - as well as X- and Y-axis forces for stationkeeping, and could work in concert to counteract a certain amount wave action which would tend to make the deck pitch and roll. The degree to which they could do so would depend on how nimble the nacelles are, too, I expect.

The question then becomes, of course, are the Thrustmasters actually going to be operated in this way to help keep the barge level for the approaching booster, as well as keeping it in position?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Lar on 12/21/2014 05:04 PM
Do we have an estimate of how much deflection from horizontal we can expect? I would assume this might be calculatable or simulatable given knowledge of the nature of the waves.

If the barge is aligned perpendicular to the prevailing direction of waves, then what matters is the crest to trough distance, and the height. But only if that crest to trough distance is somewhere near the length of the barge[1]. I know that open ocean swells can have very large crest/trough distances.

1 - thought experiment, consider if the crest/trough was 10 feet, that would mean that there would be 15 waves active at any time. Basically no contribution to vertical motion except for a bit of jitter.  If the crest/trough distance was 1000, then the barge would be more or less tangent to whatever the curvature of the center was at the time. Where is the cutoff? How close together do they need to be not to have any effect?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: eriblo on 12/21/2014 05:17 PM
CAD drawings of OD300N model from Thrustmaster website also match with ASDS images as guessed by eriblo here (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36140.msg1292963#msg1292963)

That last photo was an "ah ha" moment for me - I was wondering if the thrusters were able to apply force to keep the barge level, as well as holding its position, but I wasn't able to find anything definitive while browsing the Thrustmaster website. Once I saw that photo I realized that you could do it with the deployment/stowing hydraulics - the two silver pistons we see in the foreground of the equipment.

By bringing the nacelle arm upward to something less than a 90 degree angle, the propellers can apply Z-axis forces - with varying amounts of cosine loss depending on the angle - as well as X- and Y-axis forces for stationkeeping, and could work in concert to counteract a certain amount wave action which would tend to make the deck pitch and roll. The degree to which they could do so would depend on how nimble the nacelles are, too, I expect.

The question then becomes, of course, are the Thrustmasters actually going to be operated in this way to help keep the barge level for the approaching booster, as well as keeping it in position?

I highly doubt that that is possible - the kick-up feature is most likely only meant to tilt the thrusters between two locked positions and would not be powerful enough. Even if they could be operated in that fashion I think they would be grossly under-powered. If they are the OD300N model they have a maximum thrust of 16 tonnes total - wouldn't they be fighting against a not-insignificant portion of the ASDSs displacement (thousands of tonnes) for any large deviations from horizontal?

Disclaimer: I do not really know anything about ships and barges other than basic physics, so feel free to correct me :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: speedevil on 12/21/2014 08:53 PM
I highly doubt that that is possible - the kick-up feature is most likely only meant to tilt the thrusters between two locked positions and would not be powerful enough. Even if they could be operated in that fashion I think they would be grossly under-powered. If they are the OD300N model they have a maximum thrust of 16 tonnes total - wouldn't they be fighting against a not-insignificant portion of the ASDSs displacement (thousands of tonnes) for any large deviations from horizontal? 

Disclaimer: I do not really know anything about ships and barges other than basic physics, so feel free to correct me :)

I agree.
Another interesting snippet from http://www.mcdonoughmarine.com/recent-news.html

Quote
McDonough Marine Service announced the launching of the MARMAC 302, the first of two new 300' x 100' x 20' ABS Class ocean going barges commissioned by the barge and marine transportation company. The barges were designed by Dan Jones & Associates with an ABS Load line maximum cargo capacity of 13,200 short tons at 15.7' draft. The uniform deck strength of 4,500 lbs/sq. ft., combined with a increased side shell strength, provides clients with maximum hull protection. Additionally, the latest industry design provides charterers the greatest opportunity to thrive in the increasingly challenging Gulf of Mexico offshore cargo markets.
(the 303 is the SpaceX barge)

4500lb/sqft - 22 tons/m^2 or so - is very easily strong enough to cope with landing loads.

Looking at (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=36326.0;attach=628018;image) and the above ship (http://www.mcdonoughmarine.com/images/MARMAC-302-3-rev1.jpg) as well as

There is no raised deck - the height over the water seems entirely consistent with the 302.
The containers at the back and front are clearly at exactly the same height as the deck.

It is not inconceivable that the deck has had lots of holes drilled in it for 'hold-downs' which are giving the transparent effect in some photos. The speculation around this was largely done before it was realised just how far down the COG is - being below the upper leg attach points.
But re-looking at the initial photo that started it all, I wonder if it's simply a slightly dodgy paint-job, and a not completely flat deck.
If painting early in the morning - say - it's quite possible to get large amounts of 'print-through' from cold substructure which affects the paint.

As to rapid manoevering - there is an easier solution.
The craft weighs about 3000 tons empty.
The ballast tanks can hold about 10000 tons of fluid.

All you need is about 21 Raptors underneath, and you can fly up to ~5km, and catch the stage while still ballistic.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cavok on 12/21/2014 09:53 PM
first post here, just started reading into the whole space-x return-to-land attempts! fascinating and awesome :-)

from observing the cruising industry / cruising a few times,

i would suggest someone posting requests for picture-taking in the "carnival roll calls / fascination" board
http://boards.cruisecritic.com/forumdisplay.php?f=342
practically for every cruise, there are many travelers organizing themselves / it should be easy to get in touch with people on the actual boat/cruise, even when under way and point them to the object of interest!...

alternatively, posting in the generic carnival board http://boards.cruisecritic.com/forumdisplay.php?f=215 (more readers than in the roll calls section) or in the florida port discussion http://boards.cruisecritic.com/forumdisplay.php?f=495 may return great info.

looking forward to further bits of info :-)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Eagandale4114 on 12/22/2014 01:00 AM
Well we have two attempts this January for a landing. CRS-5 and DSCOVR will both try to land.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 12/22/2014 03:04 AM
More pictures with ASDS wing support details and Thrust Master locations.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: douglas100 on 12/22/2014 07:26 AM
Well we have two attempts this January for a landing. CRS-5 and DSCOVR will both try to land.

No legs on DSCOVR per Jim.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 12/22/2014 09:33 AM
More pictures with ASDS wing support details and Thrust Master locations.

Nice clear view of those thrusters :) What is the source of these new pics PhilW?

One thing I have been looking for since the beginning is some system to suppress fire in case that blow torch from high heavens goes crazy. So far I don't see any deluge guns..or may be some bird bath like in attached pics all I can see is some fire extinguishers on fuel tanks HPUs. If we assume a big fire suppression system is there it would need tanks. One can put these tanks in front of critical equipment as shield too....so if there are any COTS containerized fire fighting system.. they could use that.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cambrianera on 12/22/2014 11:03 AM
The speculation around this was largely done before it was realised just how far down the COG is - being below the upper leg attach points.

Interesting post speedevil, only one thing:
COG of empty first stage should be about 12-13 m from bottom, 5-6 m over upper leg attach point.
Engines aren't that heavy compared to the 30+ meters tank.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Dudely on 12/22/2014 11:53 AM
Well we have two attempts this January for a landing. CRS-5 and DSCOVR will both try to land.

No legs on DSCOVR per Jim.

The FCC application seems to have the barge on it. . .

https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/els/reports/STA_Print.cfm?mode=initial&application_seq=63562
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 12/22/2014 12:19 PM
^ So we don't reinvent the wheel, there's about 2 pages of discussion of the barge and support ship radio transmitters over here:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=35244.msg1284338#msg1284338

Now that we've seen photos, I'd guess the 61W support ship transmitter is the big dish seen on Go Quest's deck.

We also see what are probably two VSAT domes on the barge. From what I've read online, VSATs do require an FCC license. But they operate in C/Ku/Ka bands, all of which are higher freqs than the 2090 MHz listed in the FCC application, so that's a bit of a puzzle.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: MTom on 12/22/2014 12:24 PM
In addition to earlier discussion about containers on the barge. Seeing this picture I had an idea:

There are four big containers in the front-line.
IMHO these are simple containers mainly as some protection for the containers behind them (fuel, communication, control, etc.) + storing basic accessories within it. They have no special role on the barge.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: douglas100 on 12/22/2014 12:55 PM
Well we have two attempts this January for a landing. CRS-5 and DSCOVR will both try to land.

No legs on DSCOVR per Jim.

The FCC application seems to have the barge on it. . .

https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/els/reports/STA_Print.cfm?mode=initial&application_seq=63562

We'll see. I agree that their original intention was to attempt barge recovery on this flight. But Jim is working DSCOVR, has insight and is rarely wrong on ops matters. In the absence of direct information from SpaceX, I vote Jim.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: mvpel on 12/22/2014 01:05 PM
The FCC application seems to have the barge on it. . .

https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/els/reports/STA_Print.cfm?mode=initial&application_seq=63562

Perhaps the barge has camera and communications capabilities that would be useful even if the stage is going to wind up in the water. After all, you can get an unmanned vessel and its cameras closer to the target splashdown site than a manned vessel.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 12/22/2014 01:09 PM
The FCC application seems to have the barge on it. . .

https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/els/reports/STA_Print.cfm?mode=initial&application_seq=63562

Perhaps the barge has camera and communications capabilities that would be useful even if the stage is going to wind up in the water. After all, you can get an unmanned vessel and its cameras closer to the target splashdown site than a manned vessel.

Not perhaps...definitely. The barge has two VSAT antennas for broadband satellite comms, and what looks like a binocular pan-tilt-zoom camera atop one of the containers for tracking the incoming stage.

No matter where the stage comes down, the bargecam should be tracking it visually and recording/streaming video.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 12/22/2014 01:15 PM
In the absence of direct information from SpaceX, I vote Jim.

Except that we do have direct information from SpaceX, viz their FCC license app which clearly states "Launch vehicle sub-orbital first stage to be recovered downrange of Cape Canaveral."

Also, IIRC, Jim said earlier that F9 has plenty of performance margin for this mission, though my memory may be faulty...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: mcoconnor on 12/22/2014 02:02 PM
It looks like Jim has seen some new information suggesting the presence of legs on that vehicle too.

Seeing documentation that there are legs.  Some plans may have changed.

In the absence of direct information from SpaceX, I vote Jim.

Except that we do have direct information from SpaceX, viz their FCC license app which clearly states "Launch vehicle sub-orbital first stage to be recovered downrange of Cape Canaveral."

Also, IIRC, Jim said earlier that F9 has plenty of performance margin for this mission, though my memory may be faulty...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 12/22/2014 02:09 PM
What Jim has seen is the quote from the FCC application, I believe...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: dgates on 12/22/2014 02:10 PM
In addition to earlier discussion about containers on the barge. Seeing this picture I had an idea:

There are four big containers in the front-line.
IMHO these are simple containers mainly as some protection for the containers behind them (fuel, communication, control, etc.) + storing basic accessories within it. They have no special role on the barge.
It sure would be nice if SpaceX would simply give "the press" a straight up tour of the darn thing! It would sure answer a lot of questions, such as the basic process for ops, tie-down, grid deck, station keeping, comms / video, etc. etc. C'mon Elon, show us the new toy!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Brick_top on 12/22/2014 02:17 PM
here is Jim's quote

Seeing documentation that there are legs.  Some plans may have changed.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=30543.msg1306074#msg1306074 (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=30543.msg1306074#msg1306074)

sorry didn't notice the quote had been posted by mcoconnor
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Jim on 12/22/2014 02:30 PM
What Jim has seen is the quote from the FCC application, I believe...

No, there has been other documentation I have seen
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 12/22/2014 03:21 PM
What Jim has seen is the quote from the FCC application, I believe...

No, there has been other documentation I have seen

Thanks, Jim, good to have your firsthand reports.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: douglas100 on 12/22/2014 03:22 PM
Well we have two attempts this January for a landing. CRS-5 and DSCOVR will both try to land.

No legs on DSCOVR per Jim.

OK, looks from subsequent posts that I was wrong. Glad that was cleared up and we have two recovery attempts on the next two flights.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 12/22/2014 04:14 PM
^ So we don't reinvent the wheel, there's about 2 pages of discussion of the barge and support ship radio transmitters over here:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=35244.msg1284338#msg1284338

Now that we've seen photos, I'd guess the 61W support ship transmitter is the big dish seen on Go Quest's deck.

We also see what are probably two VSAT domes on the barge. From what I've read online, VSATs do require an FCC license. But they operate in C/Ku/Ka bands, all of which are higher freqs than the 2090 MHz listed in the FCC application, so that's a bit of a puzzle.

It depends whether the FCC license is associated with the barge.  That's what I proposed in the beginning - that when you buy the equipment, which is COTS, the vendor gets you the license, and it might be under the name of whoever pulled out the credit card.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: duh on 12/22/2014 07:19 PM
Here are a few frames while leaving port.
FWIW, I placed the top 2 pictures side by side (top picture on left, other picture on right).
Then was able to look at it in 3D by crossing eyes well in front of pictures with aid of a pen
held in front of screen. Did get a good (IMO) 3D effect for much of the barge. Some other parts
of picture could have had better 3D effect.
thanks for posting the picture sequence.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Nomadd on 12/22/2014 11:46 PM
VSATs don't require FCC licenses. Since they're point to point and can't interfere with the wrong satellite on the same frequency unless they're seriously defective there's no reason for it. Where you're allowed to operate a particular remote is determined by the satellite operator.
 2090 Mhz sounds more like a radar frequency. It could be used for ranging or transponders. Depending on where they are, it can also be spread spectrum, which is a lot harder to listen in on.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 12/23/2014 02:24 AM
VSATs don't require FCC licenses. Since they're point to point and can't interfere with the wrong satellite on the same frequency unless they're seriously defective there's no reason for it. Where you're allowed to operate a particular remote is determined by the satellite operator.
 2090 Mhz sounds more like a radar frequency. It could be used for ranging or transponders. Depending on where they are, it can also be spread spectrum, which is a lot harder to listen in on.

So that solves that mystery, but that's just detail.

The point was, no matter how much internet paperwork said otherwise, it was just very unlikely that SpaceX did not spend the dollars on COTS equipment for getting live video from off-shore.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 12/23/2014 03:34 AM
2090 Mhz sounds more like a radar frequency. It could be used for ranging or transponders. Depending on where they are, it can also be spread spectrum, which is a lot harder to listen in on.

I doubt radar, 2090 MHz is cell phone/2-way radio/GPS/WiFi frequency (UHF band). Sounds like comms with the support boat, or maybe transponder as you say.

Radars are usually 8 GHz and higher.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 12/23/2014 12:27 PM
Nice clear view of those thrusters :) What is the source of these new pics PhilW?
Photos here:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/spacex-readies-rocket-for-station-launch-barge-landing/
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Nomadd on 12/23/2014 01:19 PM
2090 Mhz sounds more like a radar frequency. It could be used for ranging or transponders. Depending on where they are, it can also be spread spectrum, which is a lot harder to listen in on.

I doubt radar, 2090 MHz is cell phone/2-way radio/GPS/WiFi frequency (UHF band). Sounds like comms with the support boat, or maybe transponder as you say.

Radars are usually 8 GHz and higher.
2090 Mhz is higher than most cell and GPS and lower than wi-fi. L and S band radars are very common.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 12/23/2014 01:41 PM
Actually, I tried more like 20 minutes of Googling. And I'm not an expert yet? Darn. ;)

Nevertheless, my own cell phone carrier T-mobile uses AWS band (1700-2100 MHz) for 3G and 4G service. So 2090 MHz is not, in fact, higher than cell frequency.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Nomadd on 12/23/2014 01:52 PM
Actually, I tried more like 20 minutes of Googling. And I'm not an expert yet? Darn. ;)

Nevertheless, my own cell phone carrier T-mobile uses AWS band (1700-2100 MHz) for 3G and 4G service. So 2090 MHz is not, in fact, higher than cell frequency.

True, but I've never seen the higher freqs used where I've been. Doesn't mean much since I haven't worked everywhere. But they do still use that range for air search and radar transponder in places. Offshore is going to be different and I could be behind times in the great reassignment of S-band to cell use. Spread spectrum in that range was largely unlicensed which would be almost impossible to change since the FCC has little control over existing systems that use it.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Eer on 12/23/2014 02:32 PM
OK, pics and video from several bridge locations taken to provide some parallax. Guys at guard shack were polite but insistent. Barge area of port is restricted area. But you can wangle some tours/photo ops of cruise ship as it em/disembarks. Working that angle, but takes time to get background check.  Will sort through and upload pics and videos later in day. Took about an hour of time. Wife thinks I'm nuts. 14 yo boy wouldn't let me bring his AR Drone, because we're both lousy pilots.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Lar on 12/23/2014 03:55 PM
OK, pics and video from several bridge locations taken to provide some parallax. Guys at guard shack were polite but insistent. Barge area of port is restricted area. But you can wangle some tours/photo ops of cruise ship as it em/disembarks. Working that angle, but takes time to get background check.  Will sort through and upload pics and videos later in day. Took about an hour of time. Wife thinks I'm nuts. 14 yo boy wouldn't let me bring his AR Drone, because we're both lousy pilots.

You ARE nuts. But it's a good kind. Thanks for your efforts, looking forward to what you have to share. And probably wise on the drone, even if you were good pilots... likely to set off alarm bells.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: MTom on 12/23/2014 06:56 PM
Nice clear view of those thrusters :) What is the source of these new pics PhilW?
Photos here:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/spacex-readies-rocket-for-station-launch-barge-landing/

Interesting: on the CBSNews pics the side extensions are not to see (yet?)

BTW:
This extension is strong enough to hold the ramp itself.
Could it hold a rocket leg if necessary too?


(Remark: The yellow circles are from the original pics from PhilW about the thrusters...)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Nomadd on 12/23/2014 08:13 PM
 Can't see much, but that hull looks a lot like an old 310', 42,000 BBL barge we sold after it wound up on top of a levee during Katrina. Sold it for a dollar, and the old river rat who salvaged it turned around and resold it for $5 million. It was multi compartment and much sturdier than your average liquids barge.
 Could those extensions be fold up safety barriers like they have on some helo decks?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: IslandPlaya on 12/23/2014 11:32 PM
The extensions don't fold up. It is clear.
Docking at the bay, they don't fold.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Eer on 12/24/2014 01:16 AM
Okay, I'll begin my report after my failed attempt to talk my way past the security guards (I did ask if a tour was available, or an escort, to let me get down towards the barge, but the answer was no).  Interestingly, the guard shack officer thought I was there to try to take some pictures of the disembarking passengers (of which there were none - the Cruise ship was not tied up), and suggested I come back about 7:30am on Monday when the ship was due to return ... wonder what might be visible, then, or from whence.

Basically, the port area around the dock in this area, at least, is restricted to passengers with tickets and ID, or with authorized passes from SpaceX media.

So, I drove back out and parked near the entrance road.  Here are some shots to establish the context.

IMG_2035.JPG is looking back from across August Street towards where I parked.
IMC_2039.JPG is looking towards the bridge as I walked towards it.

I had two cameras - a Canon Rebel XTi EOS digital with 28-135 zoom lens, and a Sony HDD HandyCam with Zeiss lens and 20x digital zoom, advertising 6.1 megapixels for still shots.

Interestingly enough to me, the Sony HandyCam produced more clear still shots than the max-zoomed Canon.  I have about 160 shots with the Canon, 30 with the Sony, and 5 AVCHD videos ranging in length from 11 seconds to one long one at 2 minutes 32 seconds (two or three pans across the area).

I stopped at several places to take pictures as I crossed the bridge, and then took more as I returned. 

The IMG named files are taken with the Canon.  The DSC named files are taken with the Sony.

I don't know how to embed pictures, so I'm attaching them.  PM me off line with instructions, if it matters.

DSC00206.JPG, 207 and 208 are a sequence of shots of the "interesting" white tubes on their carrier flatbeds.  The set on the left appear to be labeled "Helium Compressed", and the right carrier I have trouble reading - Nitrogen, perhaps?

A blue and green rigs of some sort appear to their right.  DSC00210.JPG includes three more green rigs that are smaller.

Other than that, general work area stuff, maybe welding tanks, etc.
DSC00209.JPG looks like a trailer office area.

More to come.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Eer on 12/24/2014 01:30 AM
Until I learn to embed, rather than attach, pictures (which I understand is what's desireable), I'll just post these two more pictures of the barge itself.

DSC00211.JPG captures what appears to be the stern of the barge - how did I get that?

DSC00232.JPG captures the profile of the port bow quarter of the barge.

I'll wait to hear from someone for guidance on how to load additional pictures and the videos.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: QuantumG on 12/24/2014 01:40 AM
Attaching is preferred to embedding. Thanks for posting.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 12/24/2014 02:14 AM
Until I learn to embed, rather than attach, pictures (which I understand is what's desireable), I'll just post these two more pictures of the barge itself.
Nice pics. Well done.

There appears to be a Red deluge gun, sticking up into the air, at each end of the ASDS. There to provide a heat shield spray for the containers?

Also the low Yellow wall appears to be sort of water tight and wraps around the entire landing pad area. Maybe used to enable a flood of the landing pad area ~0.5m deep just before F9 touchdown?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Lar on 12/24/2014 02:15 AM
Attaching is preferred to embedding. Thanks for posting.


Yes, please do attach. When you attach you can attach the max size you have. Embedding means you're limited in size to small enough to not scroll. And that you have to have a place elsewhere to host them.

You can attach up to 10 to a post without too much trouble, but the more you attach in one post the longer that post will take to clear.

Hope that helps ...and you've ALREADY given lots of fat to chew on... all those trailers look like high pressure gasses. And why so MANY cherrypickers?

Tell your wife we love her for putting up with you. :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 12/24/2014 02:20 AM
Thanks to Eer for the big effort!

Note to early/late birds: Carnival Fascination due back in port 8:00 am Eastern time Wednesday. Watch their forward-facing webcam (Google it) for live view of the ASDS as Fascination docks.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: NWade on 12/24/2014 06:55 AM
Great pics, thanks!
 
And more good news: I see at least 2 cameras (look for the white housings) on the stern of the barge (one to the left of the deluge cannon, and either a fish-eye or 4-way camera on the right).
 
Not sure if the final camera is of the other end of the barge; but if so I think there is at least 1 more camera - possibly a PTZ model (again, look for the white housing on top of the beige container above/behind the "QUEST" in Go Quest's name).
 
--Noel
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 12/24/2014 08:36 AM
(snip)....
DSC00206.JPG, 207 and 208 are a sequence of shots of the "interesting" white tubes on their carrier flatbeds.  The set on the left appear to be labeled "Helium Compressed", and the right carrier I have trouble reading - Nitrogen, perhaps?
...(snip)

Great stuff!!  ;D

Yeah looks like 'Helium Compressed' 'Nitrogen Compressed' written along with following label
http://www.diamondlabels.com/p/UN+1046+Non-Flammable+Gas+Placards/1555/

Also notice those relatively smaller blue box on ASDS share same insignia as another pair of blue boxes on ground next to compressed gas trailers, not sure if they are same but looks like same company made them. Two pipes are entering that container and it appears like a red deluge gun is there on top here and another is also partly visible on second image. Plenty of flood lights all over big ones towards deck :). May be 360 Dome CCTV camera looking up :) . First time we can see underneath work platforms attached to wings...don't look stowable with all those supports may its just for service when on port. Little of deck that is visible looks smooth.

...
 And why so MANY cherrypickers?
...

Port equipment I guess.You can spot green one in 'Fascination' images.

In cbnews image from front you can see two out of three more unidentified yellow bits. One seems to have national oilwell varco's stripes on it. Their height is lower than NOV fuel tanks (four). Also the above mentioned blue box is missing on this image.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 12/24/2014 11:07 AM
Good morning Mr Barge :)

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cartman on 12/24/2014 11:46 AM
And here it is in the same position as last time
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: joncz on 12/24/2014 11:57 AM
This looks like standing water, which would be difficult to achieve on a grid surface.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cartman on 12/24/2014 12:11 PM
This is the closest image i could find that does not hide any part of the barge. I also agree that the surface is not gridded.
credit: http://www.reddit.com/user/doersino (http://www.reddit.com/user/doersino) who has made a script that downloads every image from the webcam.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Mongo62 on 12/24/2014 01:52 PM
Here is a somewhat brightened version of the above image:

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Dave G on 12/24/2014 02:15 PM
More enhanced images
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Lar on 12/24/2014 02:19 PM
I wonder if the Carnival people are noticing a sudden upspike in traffic from that particular cam?

Naa, we're a pretty tiny minority.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Nomadd on 12/24/2014 02:25 PM
The extensions don't fold up. It is clear.
Docking at the bay, they don't fold.

They're probably safety nets then. If the Booster is only guaranteed to stay within the outer circle and people might have to be that close to the edge, they'd be required.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Dave G on 12/24/2014 02:40 PM
This looks like standing water, which would be difficult to achieve on a grid surface.

This got me to thinking, would some amount of standing water be beneficial for landing?

Enough to keep the deck from overheating?

Or would the steam blow-back damage the rocket?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: OxCartMark on 12/24/2014 02:55 PM
Also notice those relatively smaller blue box on ASDS share same insignia as another pair of blue boxes on ground next to compressed gas trailers, not sure if they are same but looks like same company made them.

Those are absolutely positively Miller brand welders.  http://www.millerwelds.com/products/
Less certain and less important is what in the Miller line they are.  MIG welder?  Stick welder?  Plasma cutter?  Most likely engine driven.

I suppose that they are a normal part of owning and maintaining a ship, or maybe a sign that modifications to the platform are still ongoing.  A more speculative and exotic rumor to start would be that the landing legs have steel foot plates that sit flat against the deck which the securing crew then is able to quickly weld to the deck for the trip back to port.

Edited in second thought: The red vertical pressure cylinders next to the two welders may be to support the welders (Argon, CO2, etc).  If so that's a lot of gas, but I'm not used to working on ship scale welding projects. Or maybe not related to the welders and they are CO2 for fire suppression. Then there's the two horizontal objects that may be connecting the lone welder to the shipping container.  I speculate that that lone welder is being used as an electrical generator to power whatever is going on inside the container, and delving deeper into the low probability speculation pool I'd guess that one of the things in the container is a power distribution panel to all of SpaceX's electrically powered equipment at each end of the ship.

Mark
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cambrianera on 12/24/2014 02:57 PM
This looks like standing water, which would be difficult to achieve on a grid surface.

This got me to thinking, would some amount of standing water be beneficial for landing?

Enough to keep the deck from overheating?

Or would the steam blow-back damage the rocket?
A layer (or a spray/stream) of water is the cheaper and better way to defend the deck from the impinging flame.
IMHO should be enough to avoid overheating of a 5 mm thick plain deck.
(IMHO again) A grid deck is out of question, because water flood becames more difficult and the necessarily thin members of the grid would overheat immediately.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 12/24/2014 02:58 PM
F9 kicks up a huge cloud of deluge water during launch. In one of the earlier launches it practically deluged itself in dirty water and ended up looking like it had been puddle splashed by a passing garbage truck. So a bit of standing water on deck should be no problem.

See the GIF embedded in this article:
http://www.businessinsider.com/falcon-9-launch-recovery-2014-4
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 12/24/2014 03:14 PM
Also notice those relatively smaller blue box on ASDS share same insignia as another pair of blue boxes on ground next to compressed gas trailers, not sure if they are same but looks like same company made them.

Those are absolutely positively Miller brand welders.  http://www.millerwelds.com/products/
Less certain and less important is what in the Miller line they are.  MIG welder?  Stick welder?  Plasma cutter?  Most likely engine driven.

I suppose that they are a normal part of owning and maintaining a ship, or maybe a sign that modifications to the platform are still ongoing.  A more speculative and exotic rumor to start would be that the landing legs have steel foot plates that sit flat against the deck which the securing crew then is able to quickly weld to the deck for the trip back to port.

Mark

Bravo ! That looks like a match  :)

This looks like standing water, which would be difficult to achieve on a grid surface.

This got me to thinking, would some amount of standing water be beneficial for landing?

Enough to keep the deck from overheating?

Or would the steam blow-back damage the rocket?
A layer (or a spray/stream) of water is the cheaper and better way to defend the deck from the impinging flame.
IMHO should be enough to avoid overheating of a 5 mm thick plain deck.
(IMHO again) A grid deck is out of question, because water flood becames more difficult and the necessarily thin members of the grid would overheat immediately.

Following system uses grid deck to get rid of spillage. And in their testing it was discovered that the Aluminum alloy grid actually got heat treated(with fire on board and  resulting water spray) and became stronger than before! But yeah in case of our barge it is not grid deck.

http://www.aluminium-offshore.com/helideck-fire-fighting
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: garcianc on 12/24/2014 03:18 PM
DSC00206.JPG, 207 and 208 are a sequence of shots of the "interesting" white tubes on their carrier flatbeds.  The set on the left appear to be labeled "Helium Compressed", and the right carrier I have trouble reading - Nitrogen, perhaps?

A blue and green rigs of some sort appear to their right.  DSC00210.JPG includes three more green rigs that are smaller.

Thanks for the pics.

Those are not technically flatbed trucks. They are compressed gas tube trailers. I agree that the one on the left with the red dashed line markings says "Helium Compressed" and the one on the right more than likely says "Nitrogen Compressed".

The larger rigs are rough terrain forklifts and the smaller rigs are flood light trailers.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: OxCartMark on 12/24/2014 03:27 PM
I've not been one that buys into the idea that water is necessary to cool the deck during landing.  I don't believe the exhaust beyond the engine is that hot due to expansion, I don't believe the exposure time is that long, I don't see where the heated area is required to bear weight (long legs), a simple static pool of water would quickly be blown away, and if there is a vision system water spray would obfuscate vision.  I'm leaning more toward the securing crew using the deluge guns to cool the deck so they don't melt their reebock soles.   Now with that said to establish my belief and with the following question maybe not directly related to it... I'm wondering in a normal launch how much is the water actually needed to cool surfaces to avoid damage and how much of the need for water is to perform the function of damping reflected sound / shock waves?  Isn't the sound suppression function the larger portion of the need but those advocating for cooling water here perceive that its needed for cooling?

Mark
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cambrianera on 12/24/2014 03:29 PM

(IMHO again) A grid deck is out of question, because water flood becames more difficult and the necessarily thin members of the grid would overheat immediately.

Well not out of question following system uses grid deck to get rid of spillage. And in their testing it was discovered that the Aluminum alloy grid actually got heat treated(with fire on board and  resulting water spray) and became stronger than before!

http://www.aluminium-offshore.com/helideck-fire-fighting

Completely different scenario.
A fuel spill can develop in the worst case a temperature of 1000 C°, with slow heat transfer; time is ten seconds to some minutes. Still water spray is foreseen to avoid grid melting, and high conductivity of aluminium is positive in this case.
Rocket exhaust is more similar to liquid steel impingement (I worked in the steel industry) higher tmperatures and high heat transfer.
Very short exposure (few seconds) is the only thing that allows standing this kind of abuse with "normal" materials.

And the real danger isn't melting the deck, but deforming it after a single landing.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: garcianc on 12/24/2014 03:48 PM
I've not been one that buys into the idea that water is necessary to cool the deck during landing.

I agree. Unless the barge brings with it lots of fresh water from shore, I would not want to spray salt water on a perfectly good (slightly used) rocket.
Other reasons against the idea:
a. water deluge was not used in testing at McGregor (fly/land what you test, remember?)
b. accidental hit of water stream while landing might push the stage off the barge or make it unstable
c. water might interfere with radar or other guidance

The water cannons might be there as a precaution in case of an accident. Or, who knows? maybe to spray in the air (pointing outboard) in celebration as the stage is sailing into port. :)

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Lars-J on 12/24/2014 05:23 PM

White-balanced a little:

And I think this proves rather conclusively that the deck surface is gridded, since we can see through it at this angle even.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Eer on 12/24/2014 05:27 PM
Ok - more pictures.

DSC00212 and DSC00213 are attempts to get something of the barge deck and the railing on the far side.
DSC00214 and DSC00215 are focused on the escort ships' superstructure and antennae.
DSC00216 and DSC00217 focus on the tug and its antennae.
DSC00218 and DSC00219 focus on the stern half of the barge deck.
DSC00220 sneaks a peek through the two escorts to the containers on the bow of the deck of the barge.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Lar on 12/24/2014 05:30 PM

White-balanced a little:

And I think this proves rather conclusively that the deck surface is gridded, since we can see through it at this angle even.

What are you seeing through it? I just see reflections from the lights.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Eer on 12/24/2014 05:48 PM
More pics.

DSC00221, DSC00222, DSC00225 - three more shots of the stern of the barge deck.
DSC00226 - pole marker on the bridge identifying the location where these were taken.
DSC00227, DSC00228, DSC00229 - access ramp to the deck, and panning right with a little overlap.
DSC00230 - another pole marker
DSC00231, DSC00232 - that shot of the port bow quarter, and a sister shot.
DSC00233, DSC00234, DSC00235 - panning right to left, Tug, deck, dock area
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PreferToLurk on 12/24/2014 05:56 PM

White-balanced a little:

And I think this proves rather conclusively that the deck surface is gridded, since we can see through it at this angle even.

Disagree completely. You are simply seeing the old paint job showing through a bit.   The reason you don't see anything on the extensions is because they are new material added to the barge, and as such don't have an old paint job to show through.  All this deck needs is a second coat of black paint over the old deck and the illusion would disappear.

This was discussed further up thread, and while not definitive, is (IMHO) by far the simplest explanation for the observed "transparency" to the deck below.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Eer on 12/24/2014 06:21 PM
Ok - that's it for the Sony Handycam still images.

I have a small group of ACVHD video streams (probably 100MB total, the largest is about 80MB) but the site won't let me upload an MTS file.  I'll have to see if I can find an app to convert the video (I'm away from home where most of my video editing software is to be found).

Also, I have a pile of Canon stills - higher resolution, but not as much zoom as the Sony shots.  Rather than upload them all, if you have an area you'd like to see in more detail from the Canon shots, tell me the Sony image that's closest and I'll find and upload / PM the corresponding Canon shot.

Hope these have been useful.

As we drove away from the site, a truck passed us with a large steel-winged structure - I madly grabbed for my camera, my wife who was on the phone with a consulting customer started swearing at me to stop that, and so I got her to take the picture.

My guess is it's nothing, but since she went to all the trouble, here it is.

You kind of had to be there ...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: MTom on 12/24/2014 06:24 PM
The yellow wall seems to me a stonger one than only keeping some water on the deck.
Maybe this is to stop the slightly slipping rocket if necessary?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Eer on 12/24/2014 06:50 PM
Okay - taking a look at some of the Canon pictures. 

IMG_2176.JPG has a rather wide view of the barge deck, and you can even see the X in the center.

Perhaps, if you zoom into it, you might glean something about the deck construction.  Note all the cleats or are they hinges in lines across the deck...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: foltster on 12/24/2014 06:52 PM
Seems like in more than one of these photos the guys working on the barge are looking right at the camera/you.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Eer on 12/24/2014 06:53 PM
Canon images IMG_2178 and IMG_2177 of the starboard stern quarter of the barge - slightly offset - hoping someone might be able to get value from using them to create a stereo image ...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 12/24/2014 06:58 PM
The yellow wall seems to me a stonger one than only keeping some water on the deck.
Maybe this is to stop the slightly slipping rocket if necessary?

I-Beam painted yellow.

DSC00229.JPG bring new stuff in light! There are four yellow boxes one is 'National Oilwell Varco' fuel tank  (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36326.msg1304374#msg1304374)and other three unidentified yellow boxes can be seen here ..They are by NOV as well. I saw one of their offshore generators it was different design.

Also that binocular like dual sensor camera thingy that I mentioned here (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36326.msg1305561#msg1305561) is also visible from behind! They are visible in IMG_2176.JPG as well next to Elsbeth III's mast and yeah one more normal CCTV .. So we have at least two CCTV's visible plus this dual sensor thing.

Two prong like bars are partly visible on most containers can be seen in this image .. they don't appear to be stairs.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Eer on 12/24/2014 07:04 PM
Canon shots of the port bow corner

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Eer on 12/24/2014 07:10 PM
Canon shot similar to DSC00229
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: MTom on 12/24/2014 07:12 PM
The yellow wall seems to me a stonger one than only keeping some water on the deck.
Maybe this is to stop the slightly slipping rocket if necessary?

I-Beam painted yellow.


Yes, that is my guess too. (Only I didn't know it's name in English).

I-Beam with this dimensions is very strong. That is what I wondered.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: OxCartMark on 12/24/2014 07:15 PM
Hope these have been useful.

Yes, thank you for your work on this.

As we drove away from the site, a truck passed us with a large steel-winged structure - ... My guess is it's nothing...

Nothing related to what we're interested in here.  Its a cast reinforced concrete (and probably pre-stressed) deck truss for either a bridge or parking deck.  I know what it is but I'm not an expert so don't pick on my terminology / description or lack of expertise in the matter  :)

Mark
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 12/24/2014 07:20 PM
Cube-ish container with SAILOR VSAT Dome along with this white hump like thing on top is same on barge and on 'Go Quest'.. Go Quest is remote control room?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Eer on 12/24/2014 07:21 PM
I think this sequence may be the best of the Canon shots showing the barge deck surface from the low angle of the bridge.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 12/24/2014 07:27 PM
Wings dry faster... ::)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Mader Levap on 12/24/2014 07:48 PM
I still think there is grid. This (http://www.spacex.com/sites/spacex/files/autonomous_spaceport_drone_ship.jpg) photo shows that whole contraption on top of barge is half-translucent - difference between "wings" (showing water under it) and main body (showing barge under it) are clearly visible.

If there is no grid, how this difference is explained?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Lars-J on 12/24/2014 08:03 PM

White-balanced a little:

And I think this proves rather conclusively that the deck surface is gridded, since we can see through it at this angle even.

What are you seeing through it? I just see reflections from the lights.

Hmm, yes... looks like it was small puddles in the original image that made i look like I could see what was beneath. Never mind!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 12/24/2014 08:08 PM
I still think there is grid. This (http://www.spacex.com/sites/spacex/files/autonomous_spaceport_drone_ship.jpg) photo shows that whole contraption on top of barge is half-translucent - difference between "wings" (showing water under it) and main body (showing barge under it) are clearly visible.

If there is no grid, how this difference is explained?

Optical illlusion.

Maybe what happened is that SpaceX didn't bother to repaint the old black paint on the main barge deck. But when they added the wings, obviously those new wings had to be painted, black to match the original black paint on the deck.

So you see the contrast between the "new" black paint on the wings and the "old" black paint on the main deck. And as a result, your eye sees a contrast line that matches the outline of the hull shape.

Then your eye interprets that shade difference as "seeing through" to the original hull shape below, or  "translucence." But all you're seeing is the difference between old paint on the original deck and new paint on the wings.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cartman on 12/24/2014 08:13 PM
Well this image shows pretty conclusively that it is not a grid, or if it is then the holes are smaller than the size of the H2O molecule

I still think there is grid. This (http://www.spacex.com/sites/spacex/files/autonomous_spaceport_drone_ship.jpg) photo shows that whole contraption on top of barge is half-translucent - difference between "wings" (showing water under it) and main body (showing barge under it) are clearly visible.

If there is no grid, how this difference is explained?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 12/24/2014 08:30 PM
Bye Bye Barge  :-[

http://www.cruiseshipschedule.com/carnival-cruise-lines/carnival-fascination-schedule/

next opportunity on 29th.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Karlman on 12/24/2014 08:49 PM
The extensions don't fold up. It is clear.
Docking at the bay, they don't fold.

They're probably safety nets then. If the Booster is only guaranteed to stay within the outer circle and people might have to be that close to the edge, they'd be required.

I'm guessing they are boarding ramps basically?

We see people standing on them in some of EER's canon pics, and they are horizontal, not vertical.
I'm guessing the deck "wings" which horizontal deck structure would not stand up well to repeated bumping into of the pier, or onto the top of the dock. Ships, and barges for other goods such as Grain or Coal usually have sides that vertical, and more conducive to being "tied up" to a pier.

We can see from the cruise ship web cam that the barge is kept from direct contact with the pier/dock, thus creating a gap.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: OxCartMark on 12/24/2014 10:30 PM
The extensions don't fold up. It is clear.
Docking at the bay, they don't fold.

They're probably safety nets then. If the Booster is only guaranteed to stay within the outer circle and people might have to be that close to the edge, they'd be required.

I'm guessing they are boarding ramps basically?

We see people standing on them in some of EER's canon pics, and they are horizontal, not vertical.
I'm guessing the deck "wings" which horizontal deck structure would not stand up well to repeated bumping into of the pier, or onto the top of the dock. Ships, and barges for other goods such as Grain or Coal usually have sides that vertical, and more conducive to being "tied up" to a pier.

We can see from the cruise ship web cam that the barge is kept from direct contact with the pier/dock, thus creating a gap.

The extensions on the side are outside of the low perimeter retaining wall and will be the only place that people will be able to stand near the central deck once the liquid polymer sticky trap material has flooded the main part of the deck within the yellow retaining wall.  You can see over the course of the day that they have begun to flood the deck with the sticky trap material.  This morning it was only visible as a small puddle near the point of application near the right rear corner but as the day has gone on I've been watching the puddle of sticky trap material get larger and larger though it still hasn't covered the entire surface of the deck within the yellow wall.  I wonder how deep they plan to install the stuff?  I wonder if they are using the slow, medium, or fast version?  Both the fast and medium curing versions have a solvent smell that stinks to high heaven, which is probably why the cruise ship left. Eer, did you smell it?   The application and curing should be done by the first week of January for the landing but they never could have had it installed and cured by the launch last week.  Maybe that's the real reason they delayed the launch.?.



Mark
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Eer on 12/24/2014 10:49 PM
Smelled nothing, but we were far away and perhaps upwind.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cartman on 12/24/2014 11:02 PM
What sticky trap material, can you elaborate? I think we are just seeing rain water, like we see at the dock next to the ASDS.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Lars-J on 12/24/2014 11:28 PM
What sticky material?? Source?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Helodriver on 12/24/2014 11:44 PM
The extensions don't fold up. It is clear.
Docking at the bay, they don't fold.

They're probably safety nets then. If the Booster is only guaranteed to stay within the outer circle and people might have to be that close to the edge, they'd be required.

I'm guessing they are boarding ramps basically?

We see people standing on them in some of EER's canon pics, and they are horizontal, not vertical.
I'm guessing the deck "wings" which horizontal deck structure would not stand up well to repeated bumping into of the pier, or onto the top of the dock. Ships, and barges for other goods such as Grain or Coal usually have sides that vertical, and more conducive to being "tied up" to a pier.

We can see from the cruise ship web cam that the barge is kept from direct contact with the pier/dock, thus creating a gap.

The extensions on the side are outside of the low perimeter retaining wall and will be the only place that people will be able to stand near the central deck once the liquid polymer sticky trap material has flooded the main part of the deck within the yellow retaining wall.  You can see over the course of the day that they have begun to flood the deck with the sticky trap material.  This morning it was only visible as a small puddle near the point of application near the right rear corner but as the day has gone on I've been watching the puddle of sticky trap material get larger and larger though it still hasn't covered the entire surface of the deck within the yellow wall.  I wonder how deep they plan to install the stuff?  I wonder if they are using the slow, medium, or fast version?  Both the fast and medium curing versions have a solvent smell that stinks to high heaven, which is probably why the cruise ship left. Eer, did you smell it?   The application and curing should be done by the first week of January for the landing but they never could have had it installed and cured by the launch last week.  Maybe that's the real reason they delayed the launch.?.

Mark

The world's largest glue trap? A good theory, but its much more likely that they will simply rub the barge with a giant zeppelin sized balloon and have the rocket just stick to the deck with static electricity.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: OxCartMark on 12/24/2014 11:48 PM
What sticky material?? Source?
The source seems to be near the corner of the deck that is closest to the shore and furthest from the cruise ship.  What sticky material??? Just look at the stuff, there must be hundreds of gallons of it there!  Probably MIL-STD-1394-BS-4/1 since it appears to be clear. Heaven help any pelicans or sea gulls that land in it.

Mark
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: mme on 12/24/2014 11:50 PM
What sticky trap material, can you elaborate? I think we are just seeing rain water, like we see at the dock next to the ASDS.
What sticky material?? Source?

Dihydrogen Monoxide.  A near universal solvent and when consumed in large quantities it's been known to cause death via Hyponatremia.  Nasty stuff, though it's not usually considered sticky on its own.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 12/25/2014 12:15 AM
What sticky material??? Just look at the stuff, there must be hundreds of gallons of it there!  Probably MIL-STD-1394-BS-4/1...

Oh, aha. As in MIL-STD-Bullsh**-April Fools Day?    ::) Watch for lump of coal in your Christmas stocking...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Mader Levap on 12/25/2014 01:05 AM
I still think there is grid. This (http://www.spacex.com/sites/spacex/files/autonomous_spaceport_drone_ship.jpg) photo shows that whole contraption on top of barge is half-translucent - difference between "wings" (showing water under it) and main body (showing barge under it) are clearly visible.
If there is no grid, how this difference is explained?

Optical illlusion.

Maybe what happened is that SpaceX didn't bother to repaint the old black paint on the main barge deck. But when they added the wings, obviously those new wings had to be painted, black to match the original black paint on the deck. (...) But all you're seeing is the difference between old paint on the original deck and new paint on the wings.
I must say it is pretty convincing, especially considering right-bottom of barge is pretty much blending of wing and main body.
CORRECTION: you seem to think this is actual main body of barge itself with wings added. I think landing part is separate contraption mounted on top of barge. Visual difference still needs explanation, but puddles prove definetely that surface of this contraption is solid.

Well this image shows pretty conclusively that it is not a grid, or if it is then the holes are smaller than the size of the H2O molecule
You mean puddles? Yep, that would be pretty good evidence that surface of contraption is solid, OxCartMark's poor joke (at least I hope it was joke) notwithstanding.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Comga on 12/25/2014 01:28 AM
What sticky material?? Source?
The source seems to be near the corner of the deck that is closest to the shore and furthest from the cruise ship.  What sticky material??? Just look at the stuff, there must be hundreds of gallons of it there!  Probably MIL-STD-1394-BS-4/1 since it appears to be clear. Heaven help any pelicans or sea gulls that land in it.

Mark
Somebody needs to find the winky faces which appear when previewing a post.  ;)
Or learn to type [sarcasm]&[\sarcasm]
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 12/25/2014 01:53 AM
I still think there is grid. This (http://www.spacex.com/sites/spacex/files/autonomous_spaceport_drone_ship.jpg) photo shows that whole contraption on top of barge is half-translucent - difference between "wings" (showing water under it) and main body (showing barge under it) are clearly visible.

If there is no grid, how this difference is explained?

My 2c:

When you look at your linked  (http://www.spacex.com/sites/spacex/files/autonomous_spaceport_drone_ship.jpg) image, you see a large highlight on the water (sun reflection) that is partially obscured by the upper corner or the barge.

If the deck was partially transparent, you'd have been able to see some trace of this bright highlight.  Instead, you only see the dark color that you interpret as "dark water showing through" but can in fact be anything from a different coat of paint to a different temperature and thus different amount of humidity.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: CJ on 12/25/2014 02:45 AM
My take on the pics of the ASDS deck; it has a retaining wall (yellow) around it. I agree with other posters that it's an I beam, but, in some pics (thanks and a shout out to Eer and others who have provided pics!!!) there's standing water.

Okay, let's touch on nautical design; in general, seagoing craft prefer to keep the sea on the outside, rather than on the inside, or on top. The latter is due to to weight issues; especially in a storm, you don't want extra mass topside. (this is why ships have to be mindful of icing). Think of that barge in high seas if there's no way to rapidly drain that deck; a wave hits, flooding the deck. That yellow I beam looks to be about two feet high, so that gives us a possibility of two feet of water. ballparking the deck area at 230x170 feet, so 78200 gallons of water, at 8.55 pounds per, for a mass of 334 tons. And worse than just mass, it's mass on the move.

Therefor, unless you want a barrier that'll hold water, you'd put in scuppers. These could be as simple as cutting a hole in your I-beam every couple of feet (this would not actually significantly weaken the I beam). I don't see any sort of scuppers, so, it looks to me as if the deck might be designed to flood. Perhaps with water, perhaps with foam, but with something. So, my guess; the I beam is both a liquid barrier and a physical barrier (to help contain a slipping stage, perhaps).



The world's largest glue trap?

It makes sense; they had to do something about all those mice from CRX-4.

@mme, I think it's at least possible that the ASDS will use dyhydrogen monoxide during an operational mission, though it'll probably have a bit of Cl and Na in the mix. That mix is corrosive, as well as dangerous if inhaled, so I think they'd prefer to keep it well below deck level.

 

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: speedevil on 12/25/2014 04:54 AM
Okay, let's touch on nautical design; in general, seagoing craft prefer to keep the sea on the outside, rather than on the inside, or on top. The latter is due to to weight issues; especially in a storm, you don't want extra mass topside. (this is why ships have to be mindful of icing). Think of that barge in high seas if there's no way to rapidly drain that deck; a wave hits, flooding the deck. That yellow I beam looks to be about two feet high, so that gives us a possibility of two feet of water. ballparking the deck area at 230x170 feet, so 78200 gallons of water, at 8.55 pounds per, for a mass of 334 tons. And worse than just mass, it's mass on the move.

As context - the barge has tanks that can hold 13000 tons of ballast water.
I think these tanks are mostly full now - due to the relatively low freeboard.

334 tons is nothing.
And it can't meaningfully be on the move - if it can only tilt 1:150 before spilling half of it out.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cambrianera on 12/25/2014 07:49 AM
I'm the only one to see rows of holes on the deck?
Look left of the red lines.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: guckyfan on 12/25/2014 09:00 AM
I'm the only one to see rows of holes on the deck?
Look left of the red lines.

Yes, I do wonder why we don't see them also in other pictures. Especially those from directly above provided by SpaceX.

Another point. Yes the puddles of water indicate strongly that there is no grid. However some argued the difference in texture is due to the central part is the original deck only painted over. Is that really likely? It seems to me they would have built the whole deck surface to their needs and it would not be the original deck. Would the original barge deck that flat without any surface structures?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cambrianera on 12/25/2014 09:07 AM
I'm the only one to see rows of holes on the deck?
Look left of the red lines.

Yes, I do wonder why we don't see them also in other pictures. Especially those from directly above provided by SpaceX.
Lack of resolution? Holes (if any) doesn't seem that big.

And they can be seen in some other pictures from Eer.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 12/25/2014 11:59 AM
It seems to me they would have built the whole deck surface to their needs and it would not be the original deck. Would the original barge deck that flat without any surface structures?

Let's rephrase the question. SpaceX knew they wanted a barge with nothing on the deck. So why wouldn't they buy a barge with nothing on the deck? And if there was something, cut it out and weld a plate in.

Many barges are built like this so heavy equipment and commodities can be on/offloaded easily without obstruction. In fact, there's an entire such class of barges called "deck" barges. Check Google Images for "flat deck barge" and you'll find hundreds of them. Here's just one for reference:

(http://www.damen.co.za/~/media/nl/Images/Markets/PROD%20MARKT%20COMBINATIE%20IMAGES/Pontoons%20%20Barges/CAR_710_Headers/Stan%20Pontoon/pontoons_barges_free_deck_space.ashx?h=393&mh=393&mw=710&w=710)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Nomadd on 12/25/2014 01:34 PM
 It's not too likely they're going to land a rocket on the thin steel of the main deck unless they're trying to sink the barge. That deck is a main structural component and you really don't want to weaken parts of it by heating it with an M1D.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Avron on 12/25/2014 01:52 PM
I'm the only one to see rows of holes on the deck?
Look left of the red lines.

That answers the question of how they will tie the vehicle onto the Barge
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 12/25/2014 02:22 PM
It's not too likely they're going to land a rocket on the thin steel of the main deck unless they're trying to sink the barge. That deck is a main structural component and you really don't want to weaken parts of it by heating it with an M1D.

Do we know what the deck plate thickness really is? I saw one used "heavy duty" barge for sale with a deck thickness listed as 1".

The Marmac 300 has some specs listed online but I wasn't able to find a deck thickness spec. FWIW, the site below calls Marmac 300 a "heavy deck" barge.

http://www.marinelink.com/maritime/MARMAC

And this paper from some MIT students seems to suggest a nominal thickness of 20 mm for a Marmac-400-class barge.

http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/engineering-systems-division/esd-77-multidisciplinary-system-design-optimization-spring-2010/projects/MITESD_77S10_paper04.pdf

So it seems possible that the Marmac 300 "heavy deck" barge could have a deck plate thickness around 3/4" or so.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cambrianera on 12/25/2014 02:23 PM
I'm the only one to see rows of holes on the deck?
Look left of the red lines.

That answers the question of how they will tie the vehicle onto the Barge
Maybe.
Maybe they are only sinkholes to keep the level constant (with a continuous recirculation of water, ejected from side nozzles toward center of the deck).
Maybe they can be dual use, maybe something we don't imagine.

Well, I think everybody here hopes to see soon what they are for  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: speedevil on 12/25/2014 02:44 PM
It's not too likely they're going to land a rocket on the thin steel of the main deck unless they're trying to sink the barge. That deck is a main structural component and you really don't want to weaken parts of it by heating it with an M1D.

The deck is a main structural component.
Sure.
However.
The total mass of the rocket is ~22 tons, the engine has a minimum thrust of ~40 tons.
The rocket ends up supported by three legs ~25m apart or so - 15m away from the weakened area.
The deck is normally specified for 20 tons or so a square meter.

Assuming 1G decelleration. (it's likely to be somewhat higher than this, due to the control system being designed to have flexibility to both increase and reduce throttle.)

The engine is ~2m away from the deck when landed - and it will be 6m away from the deck about one second before landing.
Two seconds, it's 25m up.
The engine exhaust is _very_ collimated - but steel has poor thermal conductivity - you simply can't heat it all the way through in 2 seconds, for a deck that can support 20 tons/m^2.

Yes, you may buckle a patch, but that patch is at most perhaps 3m in diameter, and to suggest this risks the barge is utterly ridiculous.

Without actually doing the numbers - I expect you can hit the deck to wash the area just after landing with the flood gun, and end up needing to only repaint.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: duh on 12/25/2014 06:10 PM
Thanks for the posts. Attached my attempt at stereo. Interesting effect where person on deck moved. Different than the
two people on gang plank with red and yellow coats. Due to distance of subject matter compared to offset of the
two pictures, the 3D effect is more subdued than what was obtained using the cruise ship webcam from a few
days ago. That one might have been too much offset giving an exaggerated effect. Once again, thanks for these
posts and all the other ones too.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 12/25/2014 07:27 PM
While you people talk about flooded deck theory keep in mind there is a gate cut out from I-Beam where cherrypicker is parked probably for it to drive out from (visible on photos by Stephen Clark).

Two tower antennas about ~30ft in height in Eer's photos are not there in Stephen Clark's photos or cbsnews photos, towers are in Fascination images old as well as new.

Elsbeth III got a deluge gun as well so plenty of fire suppression I guess.

I'm the only one to see rows of holes on the deck?
Look left of the red lines.

Yes, I do wonder why we don't see them also in other pictures. Especially those from directly above provided by SpaceX.

Another point. Yes the puddles of water indicate strongly that there is no grid. However some argued the difference in texture is due to the central part is the original deck only painted over. Is that really likely? It seems to me they would have built the whole deck surface to their needs and it would not be the original deck. Would the original barge deck that flat without any surface structures?


Good eyes cambrianera! You can see these holes in I beam on Stephen Clark's photos as well and they cant be white paint or anything else as light from behind wont make them bright like that ! Also another smoking gun ;) look at Eer's IMG2178 .. water is pouring out from those holes haha

EDIT: Oh I forgot to add even a slight elevation in 'wings' can make them look different due to different brightness and it would also make them dry faster than main body. And you can't see those holes from top as they are cut out from lower flange of I-beam.

Also those prongs visible on each container are probably ladders...they look unsafe :P.

EDIT2: Those 'white humps' next to dome antennas are most likely roof mounted air conditioning units. as shown in these links
http://www.amazon.com/Dometic-Penguin-Conditioner-Upper-640315CXX1C0/dp/B008JGTYIG
http://www.ecplaza.net/product/rv-rooftop-air-conditioner--93687-281986.html
http://www.vanagonhacks.com/2014/08/vanagon-rooftop-air-conditioner/
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: deruch on 12/25/2014 09:59 PM
While you people talk about flooded deck theory keep in mind there is a gate cut out from I-Beam where cherrypicker is parked probably for it to drive out from (visible on photos by Stephen Clark).

I'm the only one to see rows of holes on the deck?
Look left of the red lines.

Yes, I do wonder why we don't see them also in other pictures. Especially those from directly above provided by SpaceX.

Another point. Yes the puddles of water indicate strongly that there is no grid. However some argued the difference in texture is due to the central part is the original deck only painted over. Is that really likely? It seems to me they would have built the whole deck surface to their needs and it would not be the original deck. Would the original barge deck that flat without any surface structures?


Good eyes cambrianera! You can see these holes in I beam on Stephen Clark's photos as well and they cant be white paint or anything else as light from behind wont make them bright like that ! Also another smoking gun ;) look at Eer's IMG2178 .. water is pouring out from those holes haha
<snip>


Ohsin, cambrianera was talking about the holes in the deck in that picture.  Not the scuppers cut into the I-beam around the edge.  If you look along the left of the red lines, you will what he was trying to highlight.  Again, not at the end of the lines but along the side of them.  You really need to enlarge the picture to see them very well though.  I think it's likely just coincidence that the lines also nearly point at the scuppers.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 12/25/2014 10:27 PM
Oh! I just assumed from thumbnail oops..that is very interesting .. could be tie-downs, need to take a better look. Thanks Deruch  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: darkenfast on 12/26/2014 02:35 AM
From the side, they look just like standard tie-down holes.  Regarding the steel deck, I'll guess it's just stock with a good flight-deck type non-skid.  As for the red and green "people" on the gangplank, I think those are life-jackets hanging there.  They show up in other close-ups.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Comga on 12/26/2014 02:54 AM
Thanks for the posts. Attached my attempt at stereo. Interesting effect where person on deck moved. Different than the
two people on gang plank with red and yellow coats. Due to distance of subject matter compared to offset of the
two pictures, the 3D effect is more subdued than what was obtained using the cruise ship webcam from a few
days ago. That one might have been too much offset giving an exaggerated effect. Once again, thanks for these
posts and all the other ones too.
I find this photo collage fantastic. Enlarged on my phone I can fuse it perfectly. It is like being just onshore from the barge. Gives a real sense of scale and structure.
Thanks!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cambrianera on 12/26/2014 10:27 AM
It's not too likely they're going to land a rocket on the thin steel of the main deck unless they're trying to sink the barge. That deck is a main structural component and you really don't want to weaken parts of it by heating it with an M1D.

Do we know what the deck plate thickness really is? I saw one used "heavy duty" barge for sale with a deck thickness listed as 1".

The Marmac 300 has some specs listed online but I wasn't able to find a deck thickness spec. FWIW, the site below calls Marmac 300 a "heavy deck" barge.

http://www.marinelink.com/maritime/MARMAC

And this paper from some MIT students seems to suggest a nominal thickness of 20 mm for a Marmac-400-class barge.

http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/engineering-systems-division/esd-77-multidisciplinary-system-design-optimization-spring-2010/projects/MITESD_77S10_paper04.pdf

So it seems possible that the Marmac 300 "heavy deck" barge could have a deck plate thickness around 3/4" or so.

Wow, at 20 mm, 100mx60m, that's 10^6 kg of steel.
And (IMHO) a steel deck 20 mm thick doesn't need cooling to avoid deformation, only a plus to minimize surface damage.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 12/26/2014 03:04 PM
Speaking of weight, here's another interesting tidbit. Marmac 300 (the barge) has a water ballast capacity of over 4 million gallons:

http://cfpub2.epa.gov/npdes/vessels/vesselsnoidetail.cfm?PermitId=131541&status=Active

"Ballast Water Capacity:   4105360 gallons"
"Vessel Dimensions:    Weight: 4422 gross tons"

So that's about 35 Mlb of water ballast vs. about 10 Mlb of barge weight.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 12/26/2014 04:46 PM
A rough estimation on location of those 'tie-downs'/holes on barge.

Red lines are very roughly along the view of camera on IMG_2178 and tie downs align to these diagonally. Blue lines run along the width of barge. Red dots are visible tie-downs and Green dots are other positions on grid. Notice the grid is skewed about ~3.5 degrees and doesn't fit but its quite close I think.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: CJ on 12/27/2014 04:28 AM
I'm the only one to see rows of holes on the deck?
Look left of the red lines.

I see them too - but only since you pointed them out.  Good eyes, sir.

I'm embarrassed to admit this, but when I posted my initial speculation regarding the deck being built to retain something (water, foam, whatever) I mentioned that scuppers could be very small, just holes cut in the I mean every few feet. I looked for just that, and didn't see them.

Well, hrmmm, to avoid having to admit I was wrong (which, of course, I was) I'll adjust my holding-water theory slightly, and say that I think the ASDS, while not having a layer of water atop the deck, will still need to have one below it. A very, very large one. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that it'd be nearly useless without it.  :P 


Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 12/29/2014 11:17 AM
Dry stripes on deck.

EDIT: Cruise ship did a right turn today while leaving, revealing area around barge.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: OxCartMark on 12/30/2014 07:45 AM
I have a bit of a hypothisis on the yellow I beam rails along the long edges of the deck.  Not that I'm strongly convinced that this is the case but there is the possibility so I throw it out for your consideration.  The thought was kicked off by the yellow color of the rails and the yellow color of overhead bridge cranes that you see in industrial warehouses.  Could they be tracks for a mobile rocket handling / securing / horizontalizing device to be added in the future if the first few landings go well?  SpaceX already uses overhead cranes in their facilities of course.  And tracked bridge cranes are used for handling hatch covers on ships (that I know of, possibly more).  Some of the images we've seen appear to show the yellow rails as being not straight but from the cruise ship angle you can see that they are very straight. Thoughts?

Mark
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: deruch on 12/30/2014 08:38 AM
I have a bit of a hypothisis on the yellow I beam rails along the long edges of the deck.  Not that I'm strongly convinced that this is the case but there is the possibility so I throw it out for your consideration.  The thought was kicked off by the yellow color of the rails and the yellow color of overhead bridge cranes that you see in industrial warehouses.  Could they be tracks for a mobile rocket handling / securing / horizontalizing device to be added in the future if the first few landings go well?  SpaceX already uses overhead cranes in their facilities of course.  And tracked bridge cranes are used for handling hatch covers on ships (that I know of, possibly more).  Some of the images we've seen appear to show the yellow rails as being not straight but from the cruise ship angle you can see that they are very straight. Thoughts?

Mark

I like the thinking, but I don't think so.  Why have 90 deg. turns at the ends?  And I don't think it is offset enough from the railing/fencing.  If they wanted to use them as rails for something, I would have expected them to be a little inboard.  That way, whatever is riding on the rails can get all the way around the I-beam.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 12/30/2014 08:49 AM
Looks like SpX has built a mini F9 pad next to the ASDS dock and SpX trailer. The 4 grey structures seem to be similar to the hold downs / supports used for the F9 VTVL tests.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: woods170 on 12/30/2014 09:23 AM
Looks like SpX has built a mini F9 pad next to the ASDS dock and SpX trailer. The 4 grey structures seem to be similar to the hold downs / supports used for the F9 VTVL tests.
Nice catch PhilW!!  :)

My guess: Upon return of the stage it will be lifted (extended legs and all) onto the VTVL stand. Legs will be re-stowed then and the stage made ready for return to either McGregor or Hawthorne via road-transport.

With this structure being mounted on a cast-concrete foundation I would guess SpaceX expects more than one stage to be handled by this structure. It's definitely a (semi) permanent structure.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 12/30/2014 09:29 AM
Nice catch PhilW!!  :)

My guess: Upon return of the stage it will be lifted (extended legs and all) onto the VTVL stand. Legs will be re-stowed then and the stage made ready for return to either McGregor or Hawthorne via road-transport.
Can see Elon standing in front of the F9 & answering a few press questions. ;)

BTW good call on the landing leg fold up as when the F9 is mounted on the launch supports, the end of the landing legs are clearly well off the ground.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: dgates on 12/30/2014 11:20 AM
What's the consensus on when the ASDS barge will leave port to support the Jan 6th launch? 

I figure two to three days to transit and then get everything set up and running, so maybe 3 Jan? 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cartman on 12/30/2014 11:59 AM
Here are all the interesting frames from the right turn of the cruise ship.

Seems that SpaceX has fenced off that part of the port and has some heavy equipment parked around. They surely have enough space to handle the first stage, and it looks that there is probably enough for 2 or 3 first stages with the accompanying barges if they decide so. We can also see the bridge where most of the pics of the ASDS were taken.

Are there any public records about SpaceX leasing/renting that part of the port? The start date and especially the duration of the lease will be very interesting.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cartman on 12/30/2014 12:13 PM
Looks like SpX has built a mini F9 pad next to the ASDS dock and SpX trailer. The 4 grey structures seem to be similar to the hold downs / supports used for the F9 VTVL tests.
Nice catch PhilW!!  :)

My guess: Upon return of the stage it will be lifted (extended legs and all) onto the VTVL stand. Legs will be re-stowed then and the stage made ready for return to either McGregor or Hawthorne via road-transport.

With this structure being mounted on a cast-concrete foundation I would guess SpaceX expects more than one stage to be handled by this structure. It's definitely a (semi) permanent structure.

I have found that this structure and the SpaceX container do not exist on the aerial image SpaceX published on 2014-12-16.
edit: there is a crane and probably the container in this pic at 2014-12-20
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cambrianera on 12/30/2014 12:13 PM
Looks like SpX has built a mini F9 pad next to the ASDS dock and SpX trailer. The 4 grey structures seem to be similar to the hold downs / supports used for the F9 VTVL tests.
Nice catch PhilW!!  :)

My guess: Upon return of the stage it will be lifted (extended legs and all) onto the VTVL stand. Legs will be re-stowed then and the stage made ready for return to either McGregor or Hawthorne via road-transport.

With this structure being mounted on a cast-concrete foundation I would guess SpaceX expects more than one stage to be handled by this structure. It's definitely a (semi) permanent structure.
Mostly agree but probably legs will be disassembled then stage lowered for road transport.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 12/30/2014 12:43 PM
Awesome catch PhilW!
Somebody else took a good photograph of it!

https://twitter.com/kscottz/status/547867380169207809
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 12/30/2014 12:51 PM
Good find. Nice detail.

Any idea what the white/alum jig is for?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: woods170 on 12/30/2014 01:17 PM
Awesome catch PhilW!
Somebody else took a good photograph of it!

https://twitter.com/kscottz/status/547867380169207809

Nice! It's definitely very (as in VERY) similar to the structure at McGregor.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Marslauncher on 12/30/2014 01:23 PM
This to me indicates they are very very confident of landing on the barge, otherwise why go to the bother of creating a semi permanent structure?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: guckyfan on 12/30/2014 01:32 PM
This to me indicates they are very very confident of landing on the barge, otherwise why go to the bother of creating a semi permanent structure?

Yes of course they are. And as a result from that I am too. ;D

It also quite clearly means they will keep the stage vertical until they reach the harbour.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 12/30/2014 01:33 PM
When SpX do land a F9 on the ASDS, they will need this support structure to hold the F9 upright while they fold the legs and do other tasks, such as totally draining ALL the tanks, before trucking it away. Had they done the launch on time, this structure would not have been ready.

Suspect the concrete is still curing as they still have the wooden formwork in place.

No sign of any earthwork / formwork nor SpX van in this photo.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Darga on 12/30/2014 02:13 PM
What's the consensus on when the ASDS barge will leave port to support the Jan 6th launch? 

I figure two to three days to transit and then get everything set up and running, so maybe 3 Jan? 

When it started to leave last time, I clocked the Elsbeth III at around 6 knots. The landing zone target is ~185 nautical miles from it's berth in Jacksonville so that puts it at about 31 hours but they'll want a buffer for sure. A bigger issue right now seems to be the sea state. The 4th and 5th are currently forecast to have winds nearing 30mph with higher gusts as well as waves of 6-7 feet. Good news is the weather seems to be breaking for the 6th itself although rain might be moving in. We'll know more accurate numbers in a few days.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Jim on 12/30/2014 02:15 PM
This to me indicates they are very very confident of landing on the barge, otherwise why go to the bother of creating a semi permanent structure?

Because they have to be ready for all possibilities.   And that it is semi permanent is not an indication of multiple reuse, Spacex has abandoned or destroyed many items before after only a few uses.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: ravedave on 12/30/2014 02:57 PM
If they are offloading to a port where there is a cruise ship next door then obviously the rocket will have to be free of hazardous materials, right? This means they will have to 'safe' the rocket at sea somewhere.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 12/30/2014 03:03 PM
If they are offloading to a port where there is a cruise ship next door then obviously the rocket will have to be free of hazardous materials, right? This means they will have to 'safe' the rocket at sea somewhere.

They will probably allow residual LOX to boil off after landing. The TEA/TEB ignition fluids could be expended by emptying the tanks during ignition of the landing burn. That leaves some residual RP-1 in the fuel tank, which is no more hazardous than all the gasoline in the cars parked in the Carnival lot.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 12/30/2014 03:13 PM
Another pic from twitter :)

Also something(5-6ft in length) was installed on barge(in front of container on top-left) on 29th, crane stopped near four hold downs and later offloaded it on barge. Whole day people just kept entering and leaving the containers on barge :P

EDIT:

Twitter source for link of first pic

https://twitter.com/JAXPORT/status/548560950841061378
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cambrianera on 12/30/2014 03:13 PM
Good find. Nice detail.

Any idea what the white/alum jig is for?

It should be for alignment of the hold points; hold points at the four corners of the square frame
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: TrueBlueWitt on 12/30/2014 03:31 PM

http://www.mcdonoughmarine.com/assets/pdf/ocean-barge-fleet-a.pdf


This may have already been posted

MARMAC 300
Length 300' (91.44m)
Uniform Deck Load 4500 lbs/ft2 (22 t/m2 )
Width 100' (30.48m)
Cargo Capacity at Loadline 11,318 s. tons (10,267 m tons)
Depth 19'9" (6.02m)
Gross Tonnage 4422 Loadline
Draft 15' 7-7/16" (4.76m)
Net Tonnage 1326
Light Draft 2'8" (0.75m)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Helodriver on 12/30/2014 03:46 PM
It seems overbuilt for the task of holding up an empty unfuelled stage. I wonder if this is the launch mount from Spaceport USA diverted to Jacksonville for temporary use? Possibly its just a case of "we know this design works for holding up stages, build another one"

The fact this structure was not present at the originally scheduled launch date makes me wonder what the plan was for barge offload then. Perhaps the installation of it was one of the reasons for the current delay.

I wonder if we will see these built at other landing sites?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 12/30/2014 03:48 PM
Good find. Nice detail.

Any idea what the white/alum jig is for?

No clue it looks like its legs are buried in ground.. may be it has some role in mounting/dismounting first stage?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Chris Bergin on 12/30/2014 03:50 PM
This thread is awesome. Remember to check back a few pages, as three of you posted the same twitter link and photo on three consecutive pages ;) Also, if you do take a picture from twitter, remember to link.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: rpapo on 12/30/2014 03:59 PM
The fact this structure was not present at the originally scheduled launch date makes me wonder what the plan was for barge offload then.
They could probably have done the entire process while keeping the stage suspended from the crane, since a crane is evidently part of the process anyhow.  But placing it on the mount would work better, I think.

Wild fantasy: Having placed it on the mount and raised the legs, they mount a nose cone and refuel for a hop back to KSC...  Not happening, I know, but I could just imagine the reactions from the Carnival Cruise people.

For that matter, once a stage has returned successfully, look for a boat-load of tweets of the standing stage from Carnival passengers.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cambrianera on 12/30/2014 04:15 PM
It seems overbuilt for the task of holding up an empty unfuelled stage. I wonder if this is the launch mount from Spaceport USA diverted to Jacksonville for temporary use? Possibly its just a case of "we know this design works for holding up stages, build another one"

The fact this structure was not present at the originally scheduled launch date makes me wonder what the plan was for barge offload then. Perhaps the installation of it was one of the reasons for the current delay.

I wonder if we will see these built at other landing sites?

Original design was for launch, and a thick steel part is self protected from short temperature spikes.
If you compare few tons of steel with a landing deck weighing something like 10^6 kg you see why your observation about "already designed" should be spot on.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cscott on 12/30/2014 05:16 PM
Mounting in concrete should not necessarily be taken as evidence of permanence. Just watch road-building crews, who slap a layer of asphalt over anything they're going to leave for a few days.  Concrete is just really good at holding things, and a jackhammer is pretty good at removing it later.  Further, the legs might actually just be bolted to studs embedded in the concrete; the  MacGregor structure looks shorter/more deeply embedded than its barge port partner.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 12/30/2014 05:26 PM
Just in case anyone  missed it. Reddit user 'doersino' was recording on 20th Dec and holddowns were installed on that day and be can seen raised.. The JAXPORT rainbow pic I posted was taken on morning of 24th Dec(lights are on) but I don't think I see white jig in front of holddowns in this pic.

a.pomf.se/jdvkor.mp4
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Nydoc on 12/30/2014 06:27 PM
Everyone here seems to share a FASCINATION. Too easy?  ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: OxCartMark on 12/30/2014 07:25 PM
It seems overbuilt for the task of holding up an empty unfuelled stage.
They could probably have done the entire process while keeping the stage suspended from the crane, since a crane is evidently part of the process anyhow.  But placing it on the mount would work better, I think.
For me it makes sense that one of the reasons for building this so heavily (in addition to the carryover design aspect) is that it can be used as a solid refuge against wind.  Say you were coming back to port and there was a wind of ~20 mph or you were trying to beat a predicted wind.  The barge would probably not be a storage spot you’d be comfortable with and hanging from a crane could only be done transiently with people actively managing it.  Having the stage on a flatbed truck (and inside a hanger) would be best but it takes time to get the legs folded (or off as some think) and other preparations made.  But if the mount is stout enough to handle the tension loads that would be applied by this long thin skyscraper then it would be a good place to secure the stage for a matter of days.  So then the question in my mind becomes is the concrete foundation built with the depth, volume, and steel reinforcement required to keep from toppling or breaking apart in a moderate wind scenario??  Until / unless someone can find evidence for the amount of concrete or steel that went into it then the best evidence I see is the volume of the sand pile immediately behind the pad (visible in ship right turn pics) which I assume equates to the volume of concrete and steel that went into it.  Clearly more than would be generated by a 6” thick flat slab.  But enough for a heavily built structural pad in keeping with the steel towers and anticipated loads, I’m not civil engineery enough to say its so but my gut feel is probably yes.

And what better way to say “hey, we’re SpaceX” than to have your been there done that now back rocket flying like a flag at your site for the tourists to see.  It would be a good project for one of the artists / renderers of this forum to plant a soot covered stage on that stand for us.  :)

I’m not happy with the term “ASDS”, nor with the terms barge or platform.  How about “Spacecraft Carrier”?

I wonder if the Conrad / Amelia ship yard made those steel stands and they came on the barge?  Anyone bored enough to look through some of the previous pictures?   Second thought, probably doesn’t matter.

If they are offloading to a port where there is a cruise ship next door then obviously the rocket will have to be free of hazardous materials, right? This means they will have to 'safe' the rocket at sea somewhere.

They will probably allow residual LOX to boil off after landing. The TEA/TEB ignition fluids could be expended by emptying the tanks during ignition of the landing burn. That leaves some residual RP-1 in the fuel tank, which is no more hazardous than all the gasoline in the cars parked in the Carnival lot.
I agree mostly.  There is the issue of a non-DOT (or whatever agency you want to nitpick) approved fuel container and pressurized container but I see it as mostly non-hazardous.  From a safety standpoint I'd be more interested in the tip over impact points which I'd think would need to be on the SpaceX side of the fence, and ability to contain any kerosene spill.  Oh - And there is also the question of FTS explosives.  My recollection from the F9R termination discussion was that its still up in the air whether full orbital F9s have an explosive FTS or not.

And one last thought - I've thought up to this point that SpaceX's (and Tesla's to a lesser extent) methodology was to have installations / employment in multiple states (multiple Senate jurisdictions).  With the placement of concrete and steel we see that this Jacksonville location is more than just a port of the moment, they have some desire to use Jacksonville for some TBD time into the future.  I would have guessed that they would have gone a few more miles up the coast into Georgia (or Charleston, as they planned for retrieval of the kaboomed stages) but not the case.

Mark
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Jim on 12/30/2014 08:07 PM

And one last thought - I've thought up to this point that SpaceX's (and Tesla's to a lesser extent) methodology was to have installations / employment in multiple states (multiple Senate jurisdictions).  With the placement of concrete and steel we see that this Jacksonville location is more than just a port of the moment, they have some desire to use Jacksonville for some TBD time into the future.  I would have guessed that they would have gone a few more miles up the coast into Georgia (or Charleston, as they planned for retrieval of the kaboomed stages) but not the case.


No,  Jacksonville location is  just a port of the moment because CRS flights go north.  Most commercial ones would go due east and south of the Cape.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: OxCartMark on 12/30/2014 08:42 PM
No,  Jacksonville location is  just a port of the moment because CRS flights go north.  Most commercial ones would go due east and south of the Cape.

Approximately zero ports east of CCAFS.

Not saying it isn't the case that they'll move on, I just think that your argument is full of water.

Mark
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Comga on 12/30/2014 08:47 PM
To be honest, I don't see how or why this four part stand could be used.
Remember SpaceX lost the F9R-Dev because the launch mounts did not include hold-down features.  It was stated that if such features had existed, as they do on the launch pad, the TEL, they would have held that rocket and shut down the engines in a launch abort.  If this stand was an exact copy it might not be able to secure the first stage against wind. 
If they do bolt to these it seems to leave them with as many processing steps as they start with.  They still need to get the stage horizontal.

Is the first stage still road transportable with the legs attached and folded?  Does it still conform to the height and width limits for highway travel?  If not, then they might have to remove the legs before trucking the stage back to CCAFS.
And what tells us that this four part stand is made of concrete?  Was that an observation from up close or a conclusion from the color in the images?
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 12/30/2014 09:08 PM
To be honest, I don't see how or why this four part stand could be used.
Remember SpaceX lost the F9R-Dev because the launch mounts did not include hold-down features.  It was stated that if such features had existed, as they do on the launch pad, the TEL, they would have held that rocket and shut down the engines in a launch abort.  If this stand was an exact copy it might not be able to secure the first stage against wind. 
If they do bolt to these it seems to leave them with as many processing steps as they start with.  They still need to get the stage horizontal.

Is the first stage still road transportable with the legs attached and folded?  Does it still conform to the height and width limits for highway travel?  If not, then they might have to remove the legs before trucking the stage back to CCAFS.
And what tells us that this four part stand is made of concrete?  Was that an observation from up close or a conclusion from the color in the images?
 

When has a rocket fallen off the stands at McGregor due to wind? And they're not planning to launch from here, so if static hold-downs are necessary, they'll use them.

So they crane the stage off the barge and onto the stands to either re-stow or remove the legs, then go horizontal onto the truck. Why is that such a problem?

And who said the stands were made of concrete? The concrete is in the pad the stands are sitting on.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: matthewkantar on 12/30/2014 09:34 PM
The fact that the stand cannot hold a F-9 while it is firing, does not mean it can't hold it against the wind just fine. Who knows, it might just be the stand from McGregor.

Matthew

Edited misspelling.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Jim on 12/30/2014 10:51 PM

Approximately zero ports east of CCAFS.

Not saying it isn't the case that they'll move on, I just think that your argument is full of water.



Well, you thought wrong and it is your argument that is all wet.  There is a port at CCAFS, which would be more accessible and more practical for those launches vs Jax.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Zed_Noir on 12/30/2014 10:57 PM
No,  Jacksonville location is  just a port of the moment because CRS flights go north.  Most commercial ones would go due east and south of the Cape.

Approximately zero ports east of CCAFS.

Not saying it isn't the case that they'll move on, I just think that your argument is full of water.

Mark

Try a port at Puerto Rico.  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cscott on 12/30/2014 11:02 PM
Perhaps the support ship has been based at Jacksonville this whole time, so this isn't exactly a new development?  How far back in time can we trace the non-barge members of this fleet? After all, the sailors and support crew have to have a home somewhere, it will get old quick flying to Jacksonville and living out of a suitcase for every (landing-capable) launch.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 12/30/2014 11:45 PM
Perhaps the support ship has been based at Jacksonville this whole time, so this isn't exactly a new development?  How far back in time can we trace the non-barge members of this fleet? After all, the sailors and support crew have to have a home somewhere, it will get old quick flying to Jacksonville and living out of a suitcase for every (landing-capable) launch.

GO Quest is apparently owned and operated by Guice Offshore under contract to SpaceX:

http://www.guiceoffshore.com/Vessels.aspx

They have offices listed in MS and LA. But the crew members are probably used to going wherever the job takes them. And they're probably well paid given the nature of this particular operation. And watching a rocket land on a barge is a lot more exciting than ferrying supplies to an oil rig.

Quote
  Guice Offshore LLC (“GO”) is a marine service provider and owner focused on meeting and exceeding the offshore needs of a broad array of clients including oil and gas companies, government agencies, vessel owners and special project clients, in the US Gulf of Mexico and select International markets
We deliver value to our clients by providing honest and dedicated customer service coupled with extensive experience operating high quality fleets that emphasize safety of personnel, assets and the environment
   

Also, specs for the GO Quest:

http://www.guiceoffshore.com/VesselInfo.aspx?name=170%20ft%20DP1%20Supply%20–%20GO%20QUEST
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Lar on 12/31/2014 03:00 AM
Maybe SpaceX being right next to the Carnival dock was a deliberate PR move, because if they have a stage mounted there for a few days they will get a horde of tweets from the passengers. And if putting in these mounts is easy enough, and they can get port space for not too much a month, they'll do this at several ports. Back at Canaveral, sure. And maybe PR and who knows where else.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 12/31/2014 03:18 AM
The fact that the stand cannot hold a F-9 while it is firing, does not mean it can't hold it against the wind just fine. Who knows, it might just be the stand from McGregor.

Matthew
Looks to be the same size and construction, including the Blue clamps on the top but minus the McGregor blast shielding on the top and sides facing into the F9/M1D exhaust, which seems right as there will be no launch from the newly installed F9 supports.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: deruch on 12/31/2014 08:18 AM
The fact that the stand cannot hold a F-9 while it is firing, does not mean it can't hold it against the wind just fine. Who knows, it might just be the stand from McGregor.

Matthew
Looks to be the same size and construction, including the Blue clamps on the top but minus the McGregor blast shielding on the top and sides facing into the F9/M1D exhaust, which seems right as there will be no launch from the newly installed F9 supports.

I'm guessing the fact that the Port mounts don't have those solid grey side panels, like the ones in McGreggor do, is related to the fact that they don't plan to run the engines.  No need for shielding if you're not going to blast the structure with exhaust.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 12/31/2014 04:58 PM
Another day, another peeper:

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Dave G on 12/31/2014 05:11 PM
Another day, another peeper:

cropped:
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: TrueBlueWitt on 12/31/2014 05:18 PM
Another day, another peeper:

cropped:

Great shot,

Those wings don't look like they're going to fold.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 12/31/2014 05:19 PM
This is a fun thread...  Almost makes me happy the launch was postponed... 

And I wonder what SpaceX folks are calling the barge.  I don't think it is called "the barge" internally.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: MattMason on 12/31/2014 05:59 PM
This is a fun thread...  Almost makes me happy the launch was postponed... 

And I wonder what SpaceX folks are calling the barge.  I don't think it is called "the barge" internally.

I'm hoping it's "Starbase," myself. Whimsical and functionally correct.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: mheney on 12/31/2014 06:38 PM
I'd call it "Jeff", myself. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: woods170 on 12/31/2014 07:02 PM

Approximately zero ports east of CCAFS.

Not saying it isn't the case that they'll move on, I just think that your argument is full of water.



Well, you thought wrong and it is your argument that is all wet.  There is a port at CCAFS, which would be more accessible and more practical for those launches vs Jax.

Need I remind you that SpaceX has a habit of doing things NOT always the way you expect them to do? Need I remind you of the fact that SpaceX often deviates from what you think is the most logical course of actions?
You seem to be forgetting that your frame of reference for anticipating actions from aerospace companies is not entirely applicable to SpaceX. Your frame of reference has been shaped in the past decades by working for aerospace companies with a somewhat traditional/conservative way of doing things. Events in recent years have shown that SpaceX very much does not work in a traditional/conservative way.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: rcoppola on 12/31/2014 07:41 PM

Approximately zero ports east of CCAFS.

Not saying it isn't the case that they'll move on, I just think that your argument is full of water.



Well, you thought wrong and it is your argument that is all wet.  There is a port at CCAFS, which would be more accessible and more practical for those launches vs Jax.

Need I remind you that SpaceX has a habit of doing things NOT always the way you expect them to do? Need I remind you of the fact that SpaceX often deviates from what you think is the most logical course of actions?
You seem to be forgetting that your frame of reference for anticipating actions from aerospace companies is not entirely applicable to SpaceX. Your frame of reference has been shaped in the past decades by working for aerospace companies with a somewhat traditional/conservative way of doing things. Events in recent years have shown that SpaceX very much does not work in a traditional/conservative way.
Well, in all fairness if you go back a few pages, you'll read Jim clearly acknowledge that SpaceX plans for many eventualities and has no problem altering course and/or using then abandoning infrastructure/plans as needed.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Roy_H on 01/01/2015 12:57 AM

Approximately zero ports east of CCAFS.

Not saying it isn't the case that they'll move on, I just think that your argument is full of water.



Well, you thought wrong and it is your argument that is all wet.  There is a port at CCAFS, which would be more accessible and more practical for those launches vs Jax.

Need I remind you that SpaceX has a habit of doing things NOT always the way you expect them to do? Need I remind you of the fact that SpaceX often deviates from what you think is the most logical course of actions?
You seem to be forgetting that your frame of reference for anticipating actions from aerospace companies is not entirely applicable to SpaceX. Your frame of reference has been shaped in the past decades by working for aerospace companies with a somewhat traditional/conservative way of doing things. Events in recent years have shown that SpaceX very much does not work in a traditional/conservative way.
Well, in all fairness if you go back a few pages, you'll read Jim clearly acknowledge that SpaceX plans for many eventualities and has no problem altering course and/or using then abandoning infrastructure/plans as needed.

Gawd, I hate this bickering. I side 100% with Jim's statements as they are very logical. Those disagreeing are illogical, or at least haven't presented clearness for their positions.
Yes, Jacksonville is best suitable for ISS flights. So how many flights do you expect in 2015 to have legs? I could say with confidence that all ISS flights will have legs, and first stage recovery will be attempted. Most customers will regard the legs as a liability and until well proven would not allow them to be on their mission. Those early flights would have been sold as not having legs, and approval to add legs must come from the customer. If required SpaceX will have the same set-up at Canaveral where they can tie the barge up.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: ChrisWilson68 on 01/01/2015 02:47 AM
Most customers will regard the legs as a liability and until well proven would not allow them to be on their mission. Those early flights would have been sold as not having legs, and approval to add legs must come from the customer. If required SpaceX will have the same set-up at Canaveral where they can tie the barge up.

There's no evidence for any of that.  As far as we know, SpaceX doesn't give customers the option of legs or no legs, they just always put legs on unless the payload is so close to the edge of what F9 can do that they need to leave them off.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: sghill on 01/01/2015 12:44 PM
Maybe SpaceX being right next to the Carnival dock was a deliberate PR move, because if they have a stage mounted there for a few days they will get a horde of tweets from the passengers.

They would have gotten more from bringing it into Port Canaveral.

IMHO, JAX port was cheaper, quieter, and likely had more land next to the dock space  available for them to  do the prep work we're seeing. Also as I've stated before, it's hours shorter drive from JAX Port to head west with the loaded up trailer so they can tear the first returned booster down in CA once they get it back.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/01/2015 02:28 PM
This is a fun thread...  Almost makes me happy the launch was postponed... 

And I wonder what SpaceX folks are calling the barge.  I don't think it is called "the barge" internally.
Is called "#BargeX" on Twitter.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/01/2015 02:33 PM
Maybe SpaceX being right next to the Carnival dock was a deliberate PR move, because if they have a stage mounted there for a few days they will get a horde of tweets from the passengers. And if putting in these mounts is easy enough, and they can get port space for not too much a month, they'll do this at several ports. Back at Canaveral, sure. And maybe PR and who knows where else.
Suggest when Elon stands in front of the landed F9, mounted on those stands, and does the press conference, the photos & Tweets will be massive.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: MTom on 01/01/2015 06:33 PM
Good find. Nice detail.

Any idea what the white/alum jig is for?

It should be for alignment of the hold points; hold points at the four corners of the square frame

IMHO this is a crane traverse for the first stage itself.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Roy_H on 01/01/2015 06:38 PM
Most customers will regard the legs as a liability and until well proven would not allow them to be on their mission. Those early flights would have been sold as not having legs, and approval to add legs must come from the customer. If required SpaceX will have the same set-up at Canaveral where they can tie the barge up.

There's no evidence for any of that.  As far as we know, SpaceX doesn't give customers the option of legs or no legs, they just always put legs on unless the payload is so close to the edge of what F9 can do that they need to leave them off.

Well, I couldn't find the quote, but I do remember Elon saying that after flying with legs on the rocket, that he felt confident most future customers would be more willing to allow legs on their flights. What makes you think that the customer has no say in this matter? If you buy a car and it has optional GPS display does the manufacture force you to buy it? Where is your proof that customers have no say.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: rokan2003 on 01/01/2015 06:46 PM
Incorrect analogy. Customers buy transportation services, not rockets. If you hire a truck to take a container from point A to point B, do you typically have a say over the exact configuration of the truck? A customer could of course write 'no legs' into the launch contract when it's negotiated, but that would be unusual.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cambrianera on 01/01/2015 08:27 PM
Good find. Nice detail.

Any idea what the white/alum jig is for?

It should be for alignment of the hold points; hold points at the four corners of the square frame

IMHO this is a crane traverse for the first stage itself.
You don't need a traverse for the stage if the stage isn't there.
On the other side what's a better way to be sure you have fixed your supports with the right distance other than joining them with a jig?

Well, only five days missing to see unloading of the barge and be sure of it (hopefully  ;D )
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: rpapo on 01/01/2015 09:29 PM
Well, only five days missing to see unloading of the barge and be sure of it (hopefully  ;D )
Even if the stage lands on the barge about 6:30am EST on January 6th, I think it unlikely we will see the stage on the Carnival-Cam for another day or two after that.  Providing it lands on target.  Providing it doesn't tip over before they can secure it.

Which begs another question: will they secure the stage precisely where it lands, or will they try to center it on the barge before securing the legs firmly?  Do they care?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: deruch on 01/01/2015 09:52 PM
Well, only five days missing to see unloading of the barge and be sure of it (hopefully  ;D )
Even if the stage lands on the barge about 6:30am EST on January 6th, I think it unlikely we will see the stage on the Carnival-Cam for another day or two after that.  Providing it lands on target.  Providing it doesn't tip over before they can secure it.

Which begs another question: will they secure the stage precisely where it lands, or will they try to center it on the barge before securing the legs firmly?  Do they care?

If they were only going to tie down with it centered would they need tiedowns all over the deck?  Cambrianera posted that picture highlighting the holes in the deck which I'm assuming are for tiedowns.  You can see that they extend well outside of the painted circles.  Ohsin posted a grid that showed where the tie downs likely are based on an extrapolation of that post.  If they weren't going to use any tie downs outside of the center, why bother putting them all over the deck?

I guess you could make the argument that they will use the outer tiedowns temporarily while they are getting ready to shift the landed stage to the center of the barge.  Personally, I don't find that argument all that persuasive but YMMV.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: CJ on 01/01/2015 10:08 PM
Regarding the issue of using Jacksonville as home port for the ASDS (which IMHO really, really needs a catchier name);

I've been in and out of Port Canaveral several times, on both yachts and cruise ships. The port to seaward of the bridge is not large; there are docking facilities along the south side of the channel, and three large embayments on the north side.  The easternmost of the embankments is, I think, military. The middle one is at least mostly military territory as well. The western one is the cruise ship port. I think that rules out porting the barge on the north side, while its width seems to preclude the southern shore. 

There is a raising bridge that connects the outer harbor with the Indian River area, and there are plenty of places to tie up a barge there, but there's a minor problem; the ASDS is 170 feet wide, while the seaway through the bridge is 90 feet wide. This would make getting it through there... challenging.

So, IMHO, a major factor against using port Canaveral is simply the size and layout of the port for a platform that size. Jacksonville, on the other hand, is vastly larger.

It'll be interesting to see when, and how, the ASDS sets out for the recovery attempt.

As for a crane... wouldn't it be simpler/cheaper to take the recovered stage to an existing crane in the port rather than set one up just for that occasional task? Would a crane for cargo containers be tall enough? Hoise the stage off, put it on a truck, and off to Hawthorne (Or McGregor?) it goes?

Fingers crossed that the CRX-5 stage makes it back.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: coypu76 on 01/01/2015 11:11 PM
Sea State forecast for Monday Night through Tuesday morning calls for winds shifting from NE to E at 10 to 15 knots, with seas at 5-7 feet and occasionally up to 8 feet in a mixed NE and SE swell, with possible showers.  Not terrible, but far from ideal.  http://www.wunderground.com/MAR/AM/470.html (http://www.wunderground.com/MAR/AM/470.html)

The ASDS is pretty big, but in that kind of sea state the sea can be up to 16 feet higher at one end/side of the vessel than the other.  I'll guess that the thrusters and ballast on board the ASDS can address pitch and roll of the vessel as well as horizontal position.  Nevertheless, even though the sea state could be much worse, it's still going to make for a sporty landing.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Comga on 01/01/2015 11:18 PM
Sea State forecast for Monday Night through Tuesday morning calls for winds shifting from NE to E at 10 to 15 knots, with seas at 5-7 feet and occasionally up to 8 feet in a mixed NE and SE swell, with possible showers.  Not terrible, but far from ideal.  http://www.wunderground.com/MAR/AM/470.html (http://www.wunderground.com/MAR/AM/470.html)

The ASDS is pretty big, but in that kind of sea state the sea can be up to 16 feet higher at one end/side of the vessel than the other.  I'll guess that the thrusters and ballast on board the ASDS can address pitch and roll of the vessel as well as horizontal position.  Nevertheless, even though the sea state could be much worse, it's still going to make for a sporty landing.

I don't think that's how they measure "seas". 
Perhaps someone with experience can tell us how a fully ballasted 300 by 175 foot barge might react to 8 ft seas.
But you last statement will be correct in any case.   For now, any landing of a rocket will be "sporty"!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: mvpel on 01/02/2015 12:09 AM
Wave height is measured crest-to-trough. This forecast indicates WMO sea state 4, "moderate."

This proposal from Thrustmaster:

http://www.thrustmastertexas.com/Slideshow01/Thrustmaster%20Rapid%20Deployment%20Spill%20Response%20System.pps

... Indicates effectiveness up to SS-4.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Jim on 01/02/2015 12:46 AM
Regarding the issue of using Jacksonville as home port for the ASDS (which IMHO really, really needs a catchier name);

I've been in and out of Port Canaveral several times, on both yachts and cruise ships. The port to seaward of the bridge is not large; there are docking facilities along the south side of the channel, and three large embayments on the north side.  The easternmost of the embankments is, I think, military. The middle one is at least mostly military territory as well. The western one is the cruise ship port. I think that rules out porting the barge on the north side,


Not true, commercial vehicles use the many of the northern embarkments (especially the middle one), see Delta Mariner.  The NASA ET barge used it too.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Grandpa to Two on 01/02/2015 02:24 AM
Where does a Falcon go after flying? The nest. A good enough name for the ASDS?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: CJ on 01/02/2015 02:53 AM
Regarding the issue of using Jacksonville as home port for the ASDS (which IMHO really, really needs a catchier name);

I've been in and out of Port Canaveral several times, on both yachts and cruise ships. The port to seaward of the bridge is not large; there are docking facilities along the south side of the channel, and three large embayments on the north side.  The easternmost of the embankments is, I think, military. The middle one is at least mostly military territory as well. The western one is the cruise ship port. I think that rules out porting the barge on the north side,


Not true, commercial vehicles use the many of the northern embarkments (especially the middle one), see Delta Mariner.  The NASA ET barge used it too.

Thanks for the info, Jim.

I wonder though; would SpaceX be allowed to keep ASDS there permanently, or just on an occasional basis? There doesn't look to be that much wharf space, and ASDS would take up quite a chunk of it if in permanent residence. 



Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: coypu76 on 01/02/2015 06:11 AM
I agree that the ASDS needs a catchier name.  Do you think it might already have one?  Although the vessel still has "Marmac 300" stenciled on its side, that ship name no longer gets any hits at http://marinetraffic.com (http://marinetraffic.com).  The sister ship Marmac 301 is still listed there, as is the slightly larger 3018, but there is no ship listed in the Federal Register under the SpaceX name.  I'm guessing this means either that SpaceX purchased it under a shell company name, or that they've flagged it from a non-US port for regulatory purposes, or maybe they just don't list an inventory of ocean-going barges in the FR very often. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Barrie on 01/02/2015 07:02 AM
Where does a Falcon go after flying? The nest. A good enough name for the ASDS?

A nest is its domicile.  When a bird stops flying for the time being it lands on a perch, which is also a suitably aquatic name  ::)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: mikes on 01/02/2015 07:40 AM

Where does a Falcon go after flying? The nest. A good enough name for the ASDS?

A nest is its domicile.  When a bird stops flying for the time being it lands on a perch, which is also a suitably aquatic name  ::)

A well-trained Falcon should alight upon the Gauntlet.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: rpapo on 01/02/2015 11:11 AM
Looking at Google Maps, I noticed something.  For the ASDS to dock where it does, it must first pass under I-295 on the St. John's River.  While obviously the Carnival Cruise ships pass under that bridge, and they are tall by any normal standards for ships, does that bridge provide the approximately 160' clearance that the ASDS with a Falcon 9 first stage standing up on it would need to pass underneath? 

Answered my own question: Wikipedia tells me that the bridge has 175 feet (53m) clearance below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dames_Point_Bridge

Now that would be quite a photo-op.  And imagine the traffic jam on the bridge from the rubber-neckers as the barge passes by.

(http://www.cruisenewsdaily.com/nf40315i.jpg)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Jarnis on 01/02/2015 11:55 AM
Need NSF spy cameras on that bridge after Jan 6th launch assuming ASDS catches the prize and starts hauling it back...  ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Dave G on 01/02/2015 12:09 PM
Need I remind you that SpaceX has a habit of doing things NOT always the way you expect them to do? Need I remind you of the fact that SpaceX often deviates from what you think is the most logical course of actions?

Logic is just a tool for achieving more emotional goals.

SpaceX's goal is to enable people to live on other planets.  This is clear in their mission statement (http://www.spacex.com/about), and its very different from traditional aerospace companies.

In order to achieve this emotional goal, logic dictates that launch costs must be dramatically reduced.  When you look at things in this light, all of SpaceX's moves are what you would expect.  Everything is oriented toward dramatically reducing launch costs.




Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: dgates on 01/02/2015 12:20 PM
I find it interesting to note, in passing, that the CRS-5 NASA Press Kit makes absolutely NO mention of the first stage recovery attempt.  In fact, there is only a single reference to first stage recovery, referencing the April 2014 soft landing water recovery.

What the heck!? One would think there would be SOME official notice of this potentially huge milestone event advancing booster technology, even if (from NASA's point of view) it was Not Invented Here.  Granted, it is not "NASA business" but rather "SpaceX business", but still.

Perhaps concern that a SpaceX successful, or even partially successful first stage recovery will overshadow CRS and/or ISS operations in the public view?  I think this is likely, especially of SpaceX releases "news candy" , i.e., photogenic,  video of the landing. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Jim on 01/02/2015 12:50 PM
I find it interesting to note, in passing, that the CRS-5 NASA Press Kit makes absolutely NO mention of the first stage recovery attempt.  In fact, there is only a single reference to first stage recovery, referencing the April 2014 soft landing water recovery.

What the heck!? One would think there would be SOME official notice of this potentially huge milestone event advancing booster technology, even if (from NASA's point of view) it was Not Invented Here.  Granted, it is not "NASA business" but rather "SpaceX business", but still.

Perhaps concern that a SpaceX successful, or even partially successful first stage recovery will overshadow CRS and/or ISS operations in the public view?  I think this is likely, especially of SpaceX releases "news candy" , i.e., photogenic,  video of the landing. 

Why should NASA?   The rocket stuff is for Spacex to talk about.   The NASA portion of the CRS-5 mission is to deliver supplies to the ISS, nothing more.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: dgates on 01/02/2015 12:59 PM
Quote
Why should NASA?   The rocket stuff is for Spacex to talk about.   The NASA portion of the CRS-5 mission is to deliver supplies to the ISS, nothing more.

Oh, in general, I agree. 

That said, the first stage booster recovery technology development is, IMHO, certainly something NASA should be taking official notice of and supporting. Why?  Simple, the potential cost savings are large and if successful could reduce the cost for NASA substantially. It is a major rocket technology milestone event.  I would hope that NASA isn't so close-minded that just because it isn't something they developed in-house for themselves that they wouldn't at least cheer them on by acknowledging that the effort exists and will be conducted on a CRS flight, specifically THIS one. To not do so seems sort of petty.  Just wondering where the direction or suggestion to "non-mention" is coming from, NASA management or SpaceX?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Dave G on 01/02/2015 01:07 PM
... the first stage booster recovery technology development is, IMHO, certainly something NASA should be taking official notice of and supporting...

NASA is supporting SpaceX booster recovery technology in many meaningful ways, but not so publicly.

Remember that many in Congress seem dead-set against commercial space, so NASA publicizing their support of SpaceX booster recovery could easily backfire.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Jim on 01/02/2015 01:14 PM

That said, the first stage booster recovery technology development is, IMHO, certainly something NASA should be taking official notice of and supporting. Why?  Simple, the potential cost savings are large and if successful could reduce the cost for NASA substantially. It is a major rocket technology milestone event.  I would hope that NASA isn't so close-minded that just because it isn't something they developed in-house for themselves that they wouldn't at least cheer them on by acknowledging that the effort exists and will be conducted on a CRS flight, specifically THIS one. To not do so seems sort of petty.  Just wondering where the direction or suggestion to "non-mention" is coming from, NASA management or SpaceX?

If, if, if.....   It could fail too and that would reflect poorly on NASA because people wouldn't know the difference.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Rocket Science on 01/02/2015 01:41 PM
Oh, in general, I agree. 

That said, the first stage booster recovery technology development is, IMHO, certainly something NASA should be taking official notice of and supporting. Why?  Simple, the potential cost savings are large and if successful could reduce the cost for NASA substantially. It is a major rocket technology milestone event.  I would hope that NASA isn't so close-minded that just because it isn't something they developed in-house for themselves that they wouldn't at least cheer them on by acknowledging that the effort exists and will be conducted on a CRS flight, specifically THIS one. To not do so seems sort of petty.  Just wondering where the direction or suggestion to "non-mention" is coming from, NASA management or SpaceX?


You have to change your mind set a bit. This isn't a NASA mission just like they would not cover a FedEx delivery truck. They are only concerened about the supplies arriving. That being said, it will be sweet if successful and promoting it is up to SpaceX PR. Who knows it might be included in [email protected] broadcast...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: john smith 19 on 01/02/2015 01:44 PM
NASA is supporting SpaceX booster recovery technology in many meaningful ways, but not so publicly.
Very probably.

NASA is 11 centres across several states. I think it's clear that some are considerably more supportive of SpaceX's goals than others.
Quote
Remember that many in Congress seem dead-set against commercial space, so NASA publicizing their support of SpaceX booster recovery could easily backfire.
Very true. It's a milestone event in spaceflight if it works.  :(

Otherwise it's just another stage crashing into the sea.

Obviously if that happened it would still tell SpaceX a lot about what to do next (recall it took 3 launch failures before the 4th F1 got to orbit).

However I fear that's a bit nuanced for the US public to understand.   :(
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: MTom on 01/02/2015 02:19 PM
Very true. It's a milestone event in spaceflight if it works.  :(

Otherwise it's just another stage crashing into the sea.


Better to say: it's just another way for crashing a stage into the see.  :D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/02/2015 02:59 PM
Actions speak louder than words.  NASA supported the transitions to F9.1 and to DV2 even when a lot of voices (even from within) were grumbling about it. 

But then there's also politics, and the upside of this PR would have been minimal.   This way they can turn to the detractors and say "who?  us?  we're not even here..."
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Robotbeat on 01/02/2015 03:09 PM
According to Musk (who isn't often accused of pessimism), it most likely won't work this first time. I'm not so sure it's a very good PR gamble for NASA to put their name all over it when they aren't really doing anything with it other than observing the result for Mars EDL supersonic retropropulsion research.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/02/2015 03:27 PM
According to Musk (who isn't often accused of pessimism), it most likely won't work this first time. I'm not so sure it's a very good PR gamble for NASA to put their name all over it when they aren't really doing anything with it other than observing the result for Mars EDL supersonic retropropulsion research.
That's SOP. They said the same thing on all previous attempts for anything.  So far they are doing much better than 50%....
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Llian Rhydderch on 01/02/2015 03:35 PM
I find it interesting to note, in passing, that the CRS-5 NASA Press Kit makes absolutely NO mention of the first stage recovery attempt.  In fact, there is only a single reference to first stage recovery, referencing the April 2014 soft landing water recovery.

What the heck!? One would think there would be SOME official notice of this potentially huge milestone event advancing booster technology, even if (from NASA's point of view) it was Not Invented Here.  Granted, it is not "NASA business" but rather "SpaceX business", but still.

Perhaps concern that a SpaceX successful, or even partially successful first stage recovery will overshadow CRS and/or ISS operations in the public view?  I think this is likely, especially of SpaceX releases "news candy" , i.e., photogenic,  video of the landing.

I don't find that surprising.

It is a post-mission flight test, self-financed by SpaceX.  It really has nothing to do with space transport services that SpaceX has contracted to supply to NASA.  The NASA/mission doc is about the customer, and the customer-paid-for launch service.

Once the first stage has fulfilled its role, accelerating the second stage to a certain velocity on a particular trajectory, SpaceX gets to accomplish a flight test at lower marginal cost since they do not need to absorb the cost of getting the first stage to Mach 10 and 80 km altitude or so.  SpaceX quite naturally keeps most info about its flight tests internal and proprietary, and certainly wouldn't muck up the customer mission package by adding post-mission flight test info.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Lar on 01/02/2015 04:03 PM
According to Musk (who isn't often accused of pessimism), it most likely won't work this first time. I'm not so sure it's a very good PR gamble for NASA to put their name all over it when they aren't really doing anything with it other than observing the result for Mars EDL supersonic retropropulsion research.

I'd like to think he's sandbagging. :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: guckyfan on 01/02/2015 04:45 PM
According to Musk (who isn't often accused of pessimism), it most likely won't work this first time. I'm not so sure it's a very good PR gamble for NASA to put their name all over it when they aren't really doing anything with it other than observing the result for Mars EDL supersonic retropropulsion research.

I'd like to think he's sandbagging. :)

He talked that way over the Cassiope launch as well. He says 50%. That makes me assume the chances are really better than that. Not 95% but quite good, provided the weather is not an obstacle. But at least 90% for the second try.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Robotbeat on 01/02/2015 05:52 PM
According to Musk (who isn't often accused of pessimism), it most likely won't work this first time. I'm not so sure it's a very good PR gamble for NASA to put their name all over it when they aren't really doing anything with it other than observing the result for Mars EDL supersonic retropropulsion research.
That's SOP. They said the same thing on all previous attempts for anything.  So far they are doing much better than 50%....
Am I the only one who remembers that they never were able to achieve parachute splashdown for a first stage? They tried a whole bunch of times for that.

I think they'll probably be successful within these next two attempts, but this is still a very tough business! It's bad luck to not give Murphy pretty decent odds the first time you're doing something like this... I think slightly less than 50% for this time is reasonable. Going sonic or transonic while maneuvering for recovery has eaten many a rocket (Blue Origin, Armadillo). If they hadn't done most of these steps already on previous flights and F9Rdev1, I'd give them even lower chances. But don't underestimate how hard this is and overestimate your likelihood of success.

...I have high confidence (85+%) that they'll succeed this year, but I also was pretty sure they'd do first stage parachute recovery successfully.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/02/2015 09:30 PM
The comparison to parachute recovery is not very strong.

In this case, we know that they:

A) have figured out reentry, consistently

B) have the terminal landing maneuver completely figured out

C) have flown once with grid fins and have thus validated their basic working (mechanical/electrical), and have no doubt simulated their effects during flight.

What's left untested, therefore, is just the deviation of real-life grid fin behavior from the modeled one.  This, in the grand scheme of things, is a pretty low risk.

I don't know how to assign (or later confirm) a probability fraction to a one time event like this, but I think it is a lot more likely to succeed than the first propulsive reentry attempt was.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: dcporter on 01/02/2015 10:02 PM
What's left untested, therefore, is just the deviation of real-life grid fin behavior from the modeled one.  This, in the grand scheme of things, is a pretty low risk.

I think you're overly glossing the fact that they haven't tested grid fins at transsonic speeds. I recall Musk and John Carmack having a Twitter chat about that tending to go very badly; Musk's responses weren't terribly confident.

Edit: conversation linked below, and not exactly as I recalled it.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: guckyfan on 01/02/2015 10:06 PM
What's left untested, therefore, is just the deviation of real-life grid fin behavior from the modeled one.  This, in the grand scheme of things, is a pretty low risk.

I think you're overly glossing the fact that they haven't tested grid fins at transsonic speeds. I recall Musk and John Carmack having a Twitter chat about that tending to go very badly; Musk's responses weren't terribly confident.

I think John Carmack talked about steering aero surfaces, not gridfins. Gridfins are for trassonic speeds and their behaviour is generally well known, though not at objects this size but that can be modeled. Still it is the reason why the chance of success is lower on the first try. But I have no doubt at all that they will learn what they need for success at second try if the first one fails.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: dcporter on 01/02/2015 10:08 PM
What's left untested, therefore, is just the deviation of real-life grid fin behavior from the modeled one.  This, in the grand scheme of things, is a pretty low risk.

I think you're overly glossing the fact that they haven't tested grid fins at transsonic speeds. I recall Musk and John Carmack having a Twitter chat about that tending to go very badly; Musk's responses weren't terribly confident.

I think John Carmack talked about steering aero surfaces, not gridfins. Gridfins are for trassonic speeds and their behaviour is generally well known, though not at objects this size but that can be modeled. Still it is the reason why the chance of success is lower on the first try. But I have no doubt at all that they will learn what they need for success at second try if the first one fails.

Link:

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/536354292396228608

Looks like you're right, Carmack says fins not grid fins.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/02/2015 10:53 PM
What's left untested, therefore, is just the deviation of real-life grid fin behavior from the modeled one.  This, in the grand scheme of things, is a pretty low risk.

I think you're overly glossing the fact that they haven't tested grid fins at transsonic speeds. I recall Musk and John Carmack having a Twitter chat about that tending to go very badly; Musk's responses weren't terribly confident.

Grid fins at transonic speeds are not something new.  Control inversion in regular fins is also very well known.

That discussion was a bit odd, since Carmack was calling Elon's attention to something that was a) not applicable to F9R's grid fins and b) is knows - it's more like Carmack was talking about his rocket, not Elon's.

But yeah, it would have been better if F9Rd1 hadn't crashed.  I still think it's a lot less riskier than the first re-entry tests were.  Clearly they will be conservative during those critical flight moments (e.g. transonics) and place survival in front of accuracy - since there's plenty of subsonic flight to correct for deviations...   Then they can be more aggressive on subsequent flights, but remember again the grid fins are there for large-scale correction and for fighting winds.  It's ok if on this flight they don't have as much authority, as long as they don't encounter worse-case winds.

4 more days.... tick tock.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Robotbeat on 01/02/2015 11:39 PM
..
...
What's left untested, therefore, is just the deviation of real-life grid fin behavior from the modeled one.  This, in the grand scheme of things, is a pretty low risk.
...
I agree they've retired the vast majority of the overall risks, but I would NOT say that "deviation of real-life grid fin behavior from the modeled one" is low-risk. I'm thinking of specific instances where rockets were lost because real-life fin behavior deviated from the modeled one. Usually this happens when the vehicle goes transonic, a regime which the grid fins have yet to see in flight.

Just because they've done most of the hard parts doesn't mean their probably of success on this particular flight should thus be greater than 50%. It really does only take one thing to screw up your multi-million-dollar vehicle. So I think Musk is making an accurate assessment of the risk.

For instance, see this exchange on Twitter:
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Robotbeat on 01/02/2015 11:43 PM
Here you can read about the (recovery or launch) failures that this sort of control inversion caused for Armadillo Aerospace:
http://armadilloaerospace.com/n.x/Armadillo/Home/News?news_id=380
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Eer on 01/02/2015 11:57 PM
Looks like SpX has built a mini F9 pad next to the ASDS dock and SpX trailer. The 4 grey structures seem to be similar to the hold downs / supports used for the F9 VTVL tests.

Upon returning home and reviewing my video pans of the area, I see that I did, indeed, capture the tops of the 4 grey structures PhilW noticed in both video and Canon photos.  Here are a few shots, and I'll post the videos now that I can convert them into mpg files.

2080 and 2081 have about the best unobstructed views.

2076 is a context shot.  The hold downs are to the right of the blue cap tenty thing, and midway between there and the barge along the shore.  2076 is taken from the bridge near the shore. 2075 is taken from the same point, but shifted to include the escort ships.

The series 2068 -2073 is a pan that concludes with the 2075-2076 pair of establishing shots.

2157 is a mostly obstructed view of one of the tiedowns.
2163 is mostly obstructed, but shows the 4 tiedowns from an oblique angle to the square.
2170 is a pretty good view of the four of them, again.

videos to follow.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Eer on 01/03/2015 12:02 AM
Also, in the previous series, DSC00235.JPG also includes the tiedowns just to the right of the suspended access ramp.  Attached again for reference.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Marslauncher on 01/03/2015 12:36 AM
Apologies if this has been brought up already, Surely parking a rocket next to a cruise ship would require zoning? I have been trying to find something/anything on possible legislature or zoning laws so we can better get an idea of the scope. Can anyone use their googlefu to find something? My googlefu is not working today, best I found was http://www.spaceflorida.gov/docs/spaceport-ops/florida-spaceport-systems-plan-2013_final.pdf?sfvrsn=2 but does not mention Jacksonville in regards to SpaceX.

I found this also -

http://www.jacksonvilleor.us/CityDocs/Planning/20+-+Title+17+Zoning.pdf

Also this..

http://jacksonville.com/news/georgia/2014-11-13/story/barge-port-planned-former-paper-mill-site-st-marys

This last one has me wondering though..


John C
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Robotbeat on 01/03/2015 12:50 AM
A rocket which is drained of propellant and pressurant is more inert than a tugboat. No zoning issues. (Provided they don't try launching there...)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Eer on 01/03/2015 01:16 AM
Here are the videos I took of the barge on 2014-12-23.  They are in a high definition format compatible with the AVCHD in which it was taken.  I tried to take them at different locations on the bridge, so they'd have some different perspectives.

20141223-Barge-01.mkv is the longest (and largest) of the files and consists of a slow pan without zoom, followed by slow pan with full zoom.  Hand held - no tripod - and the shakes are from trucks passing behind me on the bridge as I took the pictures.  About 258.4MB in size, 2 minutes, 32 seconds in length.

20141223-Barge-02.mkv is a 46 second, 86MB fairly rapid pan at full zoom.

20141223-Barge-03.mkv is a 24 second, 47MB pan at full zoom, taken from the far end of the bridge (so you can see the port bow of the barge at the beginning of the video.

20141223-Barge-04.mkv is a bit longer version of -03, from what appears to be the same vantage point, or nearly so.  35 seconds, 66MB.

I think that's it for now.



Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: deruch on 01/03/2015 01:32 AM
I find it interesting to note, in passing, that the CRS-5 NASA Press Kit makes absolutely NO mention of the first stage recovery attempt.  In fact, there is only a single reference to first stage recovery, referencing the April 2014 soft landing water recovery.

What the heck!? One would think there would be SOME official notice of this potentially huge milestone event advancing booster technology, even if (from NASA's point of view) it was Not Invented Here.  Granted, it is not "NASA business" but rather "SpaceX business", but still.

Perhaps concern that a SpaceX successful, or even partially successful first stage recovery will overshadow CRS and/or ISS operations in the public view?  I think this is likely, especially of SpaceX releases "news candy" , i.e., photogenic,  video of the landing.

The CRS-1 presskit didn't mention the secondary payload either (Orbcomm).  The presskit is for the CRS Mission!  It's not an overview of the launch of SpaceX rocket #19.  It's not like SpaceX has been quiet about their plans for the test on this launch.  They're just not putting it in the info that's specifically about the CRS mission because it doesn't belong there.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/03/2015 01:39 AM
..
...
What's left untested, therefore, is just the deviation of real-life grid fin behavior from the modeled one.  This, in the grand scheme of things, is a pretty low risk.
...
I agree they've retired the vast majority of the overall risks, but I would NOT say that "deviation of real-life grid fin behavior from the modeled one" is low-risk. I'm thinking of specific instances where rockets were lost because real-life fin behavior deviated from the modeled one. Usually this happens when the vehicle goes transonic, a regime which the grid fins have yet to see in flight.

Just because they've done most of the hard parts doesn't mean their probably of success on this particular flight should thus be greater than 50%. It really does only take one thing to screw up your multi-million-dollar vehicle. So I think Musk is making an accurate assessment of the risk.

For instance, see this exchange on Twitter:
Look.  John Carmack said "inversion" and now it's the internet risk de jour, but this is not some exotic unexpected phenomena that nobody understands. The mere fact that Musk is going with grid fins means he's not clueless about it, and a very wild guess says that they have an aerodynamicist (or two) on staff.

If I was to place a bet on why the landings might fail, this won't be a leading cause.

And besides, I never said "low risk", mainly because I can't quantify " low".  I said that the risks during the first (ever!) propulsive reentry were higher, and that this time almost all stages of the process have been validated already, or that "in the grand scheme of things, it's a low brisk" - so please quote my entire statement, not just half sentences.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/03/2015 01:41 AM
Fascination is due in port shortly. Wonder if #BargeX / Falcon's Nest will still be there when she arrives?
http://www.cruisin.me/ship_tracker/carnival_cruise_lines/carnival_fascination.php
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/03/2015 01:45 AM
..
...
What's left untested, therefore, is just the deviation of real-life grid fin behavior from the modeled one.  This, in the grand scheme of things, is a pretty low risk.
...
I agree they've retired the vast majority of the overall risks, but I would NOT say that "deviation of real-life grid fin behavior from the modeled one" is low-risk. I'm thinking of specific instances where rockets were lost because real-life fin behavior deviated from the modeled one. Usually this happens when the vehicle goes transonic, a regime which the grid fins have yet to see in flight.

Just because they've done most of the hard parts doesn't mean their probably of success on this particular flight should thus be greater than 50%. It really does only take one thing to screw up your multi-million-dollar vehicle. So I think Musk is making an accurate assessment of the risk.

For instance, see this exchange on Twitter:
Look.  John Carmack said "inversion" and now it's the internet risk de jour, but this is not some exotic unexpected phenomena that nobody understands. The mere fact that Musk is going with grid fins means he's not clueless about it, and a very wild guess says that they have an aerodynamicist (or two) on staff.

If I was to place a bet on why the landings might fail, this won't be a leading cause.

And besides, I never said "low risk", mainly because I can't quantify " low".  I said that the risks during the first (ever!) propulsive reentry were higher, and that this time almost all stages of the process have been validated already, or that "in the grand scheme of things, it's a low brisk" - so please quote my entire statement, not just half sentences.
Because SpX engineers know about the Inversion issue, their grid fin flight control software should be able to compensate for it and still maintain the desired F9 attitude control capability.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Eer on 01/03/2015 01:59 AM
Fascination is due in port shortly. Wonder if #BargeX / Falcon's Nest will still be there when she arrives?
http://www.cruisin.me/ship_tracker/carnival_cruise_lines/carnival_fascination.php
Go Quest is underway at 0.1 knots with destination Blake Plateau at this time.

No - nevermind - its track looks like it's just jostling around.  Keep an eye on it, though ...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/03/2015 02:06 AM
..
...
What's left untested, therefore, is just the deviation of real-life grid fin behavior from the modeled one.  This, in the grand scheme of things, is a pretty low risk.
...
I agree they've retired the vast majority of the overall risks, but I would NOT say that "deviation of real-life grid fin behavior from the modeled one" is low-risk. I'm thinking of specific instances where rockets were lost because real-life fin behavior deviated from the modeled one. Usually this happens when the vehicle goes transonic, a regime which the grid fins have yet to see in flight.

Just because they've done most of the hard parts doesn't mean their probably of success on this particular flight should thus be greater than 50%. It really does only take one thing to screw up your multi-million-dollar vehicle. So I think Musk is making an accurate assessment of the risk.

For instance, see this exchange on Twitter:
Look.  John Carmack said "inversion" and now it's the internet risk de jour, but this is not some exotic unexpected phenomena that nobody understands. The mere fact that Musk is going with grid fins means he's not clueless about it, and a very wild guess says that they have an aerodynamicist (or two) on staff.

If I was to place a bet on why the landings might fail, this won't be a leading cause.

And besides, I never said "low risk", mainly because I can't quantify " low".  I said that the risks during the first (ever!) propulsive reentry were higher, and that this time almost all stages of the process have been validated already, or that "in the grand scheme of things, it's a low brisk" - so please quote my entire statement, not just half sentences.
Because SpX engineers know about the Inversion issue, their grid fin flight control software should be able to compensate for it and still maintain the desired F9 attitude control capability.
Yup. Also, (not having an aerodynamics background) I wonder if the phenomenon even occurs with grid fins, since the flow path is so short.

... And now, back to the Fascination vid feed, tonight's main event.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/03/2015 02:08 AM
Fascination is due in port shortly. Wonder if #BargeX / Falcon's Nest will still be there when she arrives?
http://www.cruisin.me/ship_tracker/carnival_cruise_lines/carnival_fascination.php
Go Quest is underway at 0.1 knots with destination Blake Plateau at this time.

No - nevermind - its track looks like it's just jostling around.  Keep an eye on it, though ...
Thought that Tugs reference has proven to be unreliable in the past as it gets turned off. But should shown when it leaves the dock. ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/03/2015 02:12 AM
... And now, back to the Fascination vid feed, tonight's main event.
Still a bit dark:
http://www.cruisin.me/cruisecams/ships/carnival_cruise_lines/carnival_fascination.php
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Eer on 01/03/2015 02:18 AM
Fascination is due in port shortly. Wonder if #BargeX / Falcon's Nest will still be there when she arrives?
http://www.cruisin.me/ship_tracker/carnival_cruise_lines/carnival_fascination.php
Go Quest is underway at 0.1 knots with destination Blake Plateau at this time.

No - nevermind - its track looks like it's just jostling around.  Keep an eye on it, though ...
Thought that Tugs reference has proven to be unreliable in the past as it gets turned off. But should shown when it leaves the dock. ;)

Well, the tug's is turned off - Elsbeth III - http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/mmsi:367017460/shipid:434560/vessel:ELSBETH%20III , but Go Quest's is on.

Hmpf - Elsbeth III reported in 3 minutes ago, so I guess they're both on.

I don't find Fascination on the tracker, and didn't think it made port until morning (I don't actually know its schedule).

But both the tug and the escort transponders appear to be on atm.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/03/2015 02:19 AM
Go Quest tracking:
https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/zoom:10/shipid:450521/mmsi:367564890/centerx:-81.58316/centery:30.40951
http://www.vesselfinder.com/?mmsi=367564890

Elsbeth III (tug) tracking:
http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:-81.58298/centery:30.40965/zoom:8/mmsi:367017460/shipid:434560
http://www.vesselfinder.com/?mmsi=367017460

Fascination tracking:
http://www.cruisin.me/ship_tracker/carnival_cruise_lines/carnival_fascination.php

Fascination forward web cam:
http://www.cruisin.me/cruisecams/ships/carnival_cruise_lines/carnival_fascination.php
http://ships.carnivalentertainment.com/#ship/carnival-fascination/cameras

Sea state data:
http://www.oceanweather.com/data/

Port Jacksonville harbour cam:
http://dataservices.namapmterminals.com/apmt/cameraimage.aspx?address=http://10.1.197.153/axis-cgi/jpg/image.cgi?resolution=352x288
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: deruch on 01/03/2015 02:21 AM

... And now, back to the Fascination vid feed, tonight's main event.

Tonight is still the undercard.  Main event will hopefully be on the 8th.  CRS-5 is on the 6th with landing around 6:35am and Fascination departs Jacksonville on the 8th at 4pm.  I'm not that hopeful that the cam will capture images of the returning stage on the barge.  If for no other reason that the sailing time between the landing area and port may be longer than the window.  But that would definitely be the main event.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/03/2015 02:22 AM
Fascination is due in port shortly. Wonder if #BargeX / Falcon's Nest will still be there when she arrives?
http://www.cruisin.me/ship_tracker/carnival_cruise_lines/carnival_fascination.php
Go Quest is underway at 0.1 knots with destination Blake Plateau at this time.

No - nevermind - its track looks like it's just jostling around.  Keep an eye on it, though ...
Thought that Tugs reference has proven to be unreliable in the past as it gets turned off. But should shown when it leaves the dock. ;)

Well, the tug's is turned off - Elsbeth III - http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/mmsi:367017460/shipid:434560/vessel:ELSBETH%20III , but Go Quest's is on.
Saw that.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Eer on 01/03/2015 02:23 AM
Go Quest tracking:
https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/zoom:10/shipid:450521/mmsi:367564890/centerx:-81.58316/centery:30.40951

Fascination tracking:
http://www.cruisin.me/ship_tracker/carnival_cruise_lines/carnival_fascination.php
Select Tracker Mapping Option B

Fascination forward web cam:
http://www.cruisin.me/cruisecams/ships/carnival_cruise_lines/carnival_fascination.php

Elsbeth III (tug) tracking:
http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:-81.58298/centery:30.40965/zoom:8/mmsi:367017460/shipid:434560
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/03/2015 02:26 AM
Go Quest tracking:
https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/zoom:10/shipid:450521/mmsi:367564890/centerx:-81.58316/centery:30.40951

Fascination tracking:
http://www.cruisin.me/ship_tracker/carnival_cruise_lines/carnival_fascination.php
Select Tracker Mapping Option B

Fascination forward web cam:
http://www.cruisin.me/cruisecams/ships/carnival_cruise_lines/carnival_fascination.php

Elsbeth III (tug) tracking:
http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:-81.58298/centery:30.40965/zoom:8/mmsi:367017460/shipid:434560
Thanks for that. Updated the list with your data ;)

Falcon's Nest layout.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: deruch on 01/03/2015 02:27 AM
Go Quest tracking:
https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/zoom:10/shipid:450521/mmsi:367564890/centerx:-81.58316/centery:30.40951

Fascination tracking:
http://www.cruisin.me/ship_tracker/carnival_cruise_lines/carnival_fascination.php
Select Tracker Mapping Option B

Fascination forward web cam:
http://www.cruisin.me/cruisecams/ships/carnival_cruise_lines/carnival_fascination.php

Elsbeth III (tug) tracking:
http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:-81.58298/centery:30.40965/zoom:8/mmsi:367017460/shipid:434560

Just showed up for me, right next to the Go Quest.  Both docked.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Robotbeat on 01/03/2015 02:28 AM
..
...
What's left untested, therefore, is just the deviation of real-life grid fin behavior from the modeled one.  This, in the grand scheme of things, is a pretty low risk.
...
I agree they've retired the vast majority of the overall risks, but I would NOT say that "deviation of real-life grid fin behavior from the modeled one" is low-risk. I'm thinking of specific instances where rockets were lost because real-life fin behavior deviated from the modeled one. Usually this happens when the vehicle goes transonic, a regime which the grid fins have yet to see in flight.

Just because they've done most of the hard parts doesn't mean their probably of success on this particular flight should thus be greater than 50%. It really does only take one thing to screw up your multi-million-dollar vehicle. So I think Musk is making an accurate assessment of the risk.

For instance, see this exchange on Twitter:
Look.  John Carmack said "inversion" and now it's the internet risk de jour...
Stop right there. I didn't start thinking it'd be a problem just because Carmack mentioned it on Twitter. It's a serious issue that gets brought up on ARocket sometimes and something similar is probably what killed BlueOrigin's last suborbital vehicle at around Mach 1.2. Just because people know about it doesn't mean it's not a serious challenge to address.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: deruch on 01/03/2015 02:43 AM
Go Quest tracking:
https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/zoom:10/shipid:450521/mmsi:367564890/centerx:-81.58316/centery:30.40951

Fascination tracking:
http://www.cruisin.me/ship_tracker/carnival_cruise_lines/carnival_fascination.php
Select Tracker Mapping Option B

Fascination forward web cam:
http://www.cruisin.me/cruisecams/ships/carnival_cruise_lines/carnival_fascination.php

Elsbeth III (tug) tracking:
http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:-81.58298/centery:30.40965/zoom:8/mmsi:367017460/shipid:434560
Thanks for that. Updated the list with your data ;)

Falcon's Nest layout.

Horses, when not being ridden, are kept in a stable.  Falcons, when not being flown, are kept in a mews (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mews_%28falconry%29).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/03/2015 02:46 AM
Go Quest tracking:
https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/zoom:10/shipid:450521/mmsi:367564890/centerx:-81.58316/centery:30.40951

Fascination tracking:
http://www.cruisin.me/ship_tracker/carnival_cruise_lines/carnival_fascination.php
Select Tracker Mapping Option B

Fascination forward web cam:
http://www.cruisin.me/cruisecams/ships/carnival_cruise_lines/carnival_fascination.php

Elsbeth III (tug) tracking:
http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:-81.58298/centery:30.40965/zoom:8/mmsi:367017460/shipid:434560
Thanks for that. Updated the list with your data ;)

Falcon's Nest layout.

Horses, when not being ridden, are kept in a stable.  Falcons, when not being flown, are kept in a mews (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mews_%28falconry%29).
Expect this Falcon is going to be a highly visible STAR, thus needs a nice place to be seen in all it's just returned from space finery. Then it will return to it's Mews in either Texas or Calif.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/03/2015 02:57 AM
Go Quest tracking:
https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/zoom:10/shipid:450521/mmsi:367564890/centerx:-81.58316/centery:30.40951

Fascination tracking:
http://www.cruisin.me/ship_tracker/carnival_cruise_lines/carnival_fascination.php
Select Tracker Mapping Option B

Fascination forward web cam:
http://www.cruisin.me/cruisecams/ships/carnival_cruise_lines/carnival_fascination.php

Elsbeth III (tug) tracking:
http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:-81.58298/centery:30.40965/zoom:8/mmsi:367017460/shipid:434560
Thanks for that. Updated the list with your data ;)

Falcon's Nest layout.

Horses, when not being ridden, are kept in a stable.  Falcons, when not being flown, are kept in a mews (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mews_%28falconry%29).
So it's "Gauntlet" vs "Mews" ?!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/03/2015 03:14 AM
Go Quest tracking:
https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/zoom:10/shipid:450521/mmsi:367564890/centerx:-81.58316/centery:30.40951

Fascination tracking:
http://www.cruisin.me/ship_tracker/carnival_cruise_lines/carnival_fascination.php
Select Tracker Mapping Option B

Fascination forward web cam:
http://www.cruisin.me/cruisecams/ships/carnival_cruise_lines/carnival_fascination.php

Elsbeth III (tug) tracking:
http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:-81.58298/centery:30.40965/zoom:8/mmsi:367017460/shipid:434560
Thanks for that. Updated the list with your data ;)

Falcon's Nest layout.

Horses, when not being ridden, are kept in a stable.  Falcons, when not being flown, are kept in a mews (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mews_%28falconry%29).
So it's "Gauntlet" vs "Mews" ?!
F9 is a bit heavy for Elon's arm, even if covered by a SpX Gauntlet ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: go4mars on 01/03/2015 03:20 AM
After completing field tasks, yet before return flight to the rookery, the falconer's gauntlet provides familiar support for a reward of sustenance.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/03/2015 03:36 AM
Even if "Gauntlet" means "place where Falcons go to breed", I don't care, it sounds good.

What it needs, along these lines, is a falcon figurehead.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/03/2015 03:37 AM
"Gauntlet" is good name for the ASDS.

Hope SpX has well trained this Falcon so it can find and land on the Gauntlet.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: go4mars on 01/03/2015 03:38 AM
What it needs, along these lines, is a falcon figurehead.
Chewie?  Han?  Peregrine?


Actually, I think "Model X" is best endowed to claim figureheadhood.  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/03/2015 03:43 AM
What it needs, along these lines, is a falcon figurehead.
Chewie?  Han?  Or Peregrine?
Maybe paint a BIG Gauntlet on the deck?

Gotta be careful to not attract more than one!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: OxCartMark on 01/03/2015 03:55 AM
An accumulation of low grade comments:

With the posting earlier of a picture of the I-295 bridge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dames_Point_Bridge ) I had a thought that there may be a webcam up there.  I couldn’t find one there or anywhere along the river.  But that doesn’t mean there isn’t one, its probably more a sign of my search skills.  Can anyone find one along the return route?

In my search for webcams I was on the JAXPORT site.  For what little its worth, JAXPORT says that the cruise ship terminal is a temporary facility.

As mentioned earlier, the destination for Go Quest is set as the Blake Plateau.  So I looked it up.  Its just a large underwater plateau off the coast of Georgia and South Carolina, not a very specific destination (the specific destination which we know from the FCC filing) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blake_Plateau

Because SpX engineers know about the Inversion issue, their grid fin flight control software should be able to compensate for it and still maintain the desired F9 attitude control capability.
  Huh?  I thought that there was no control inversion issue with grid fins (non-linear behavior yes, but still “forward”) unless there was a secondary reason, such as when the wake of the grid fins acts on another surface of the vehicle.?.  I’m definitely not authoritative enough to say that for fact but I want to swing that out there as bait to see if we can get someone with a solid background to put this to bed (or not).

Silly debate continues on the name of the barge, I thought I had resolved it earlier.  It’s a Spacecraft Carrier.  That is my decree!

Or it may be best since there will soon be more of them to use "spacecraft carrier" as a vessel type descriptor with names assigned to each individual one.  If we go that way then whatever name is selected for this one must fit in a pattern which has names available for the others.  For instance, the vehicle type of crawler-transporter has two named vehicles, Hans and Franz.

Or if they never get around to painting over "Marmac 300" I offer the following revisionist interpretation of that name;

   M obile
   A dvanced
   R ocket
   M oving
   A utonomous
   C arrier

   300: Allows for BFR up to 300’ height

Good night

Mark
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/03/2015 04:05 AM
An accumulation of low grade comments

Wasn't sure there for a minute whether your observation was forward or backward looking  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: AJW on 01/03/2015 04:32 AM
So it's "Gauntlet" vs "Mews" ?!

Has someone suggested 'Mos Eisley' or 'Docking Bay 94'?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: llanitedave on 01/03/2015 04:53 AM
Apologies if this has been brought up already, Surely parking a rocket next to a cruise ship would require zoning? I have been trying to find something/anything on possible legislature or zoning laws so we can better get an idea of the scope. Can anyone use their googlefu to find something? My googlefu is not working today, best I found was http://www.spaceflorida.gov/docs/spaceport-ops/florida-spaceport-systems-plan-2013_final.pdf?sfvrsn=2 (http://www.spaceflorida.gov/docs/spaceport-ops/florida-spaceport-systems-plan-2013_final.pdf?sfvrsn=2) but does not mention Jacksonville in regards to SpaceX.

I found this also -

http://www.jacksonvilleor.us/CityDocs/Planning/20+-+Title+17+Zoning.pdf (http://www.jacksonvilleor.us/CityDocs/Planning/20+-+Title+17+Zoning.pdf)

Also this..

http://jacksonville.com/news/georgia/2014-11-13/story/barge-port-planned-former-paper-mill-site-st-marys (http://jacksonville.com/news/georgia/2014-11-13/story/barge-port-planned-former-paper-mill-site-st-marys)

This last one has me wondering though..


John C

What would be worse than zoning would be the HOA.  Woe to them if they violate the neighborhood color scheme!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/03/2015 05:20 AM
Strange. Appears the Carnaval Fascination web cams are no longer available on line.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Grandpa to Two on 01/03/2015 06:59 AM
I suggested nest but gauntlet makes more sense. Elon released his falcon which flew, eventually returning to his gauntlet. Later Elon arranged for the bird to be returned to his mews.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Eer on 01/03/2015 09:03 AM
Strange. Appears the Carnaval Fascination web cams are no longer available on line.

Looks that way to me, too.  And not just the front one, but neither are available, now.  Shame.

Both tugs still in Jacksonville port, and Fascination now heading for the mouth of the river for docking this morning.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/03/2015 09:18 AM
Strange. Appears the Carnival Fascination web cams are no longer available on line.

Looks that way to me, too.  And not just the front one, but neither are available, now.  Shame.

Both tugs still in Jacksonville port, and Fascination now heading for the mouth of the river for docking this morning.
Found another Carnival Fascination web cam feed:
http://ships.carnivalentertainment.com/#ship/carnival-fascination/cameras
Fascination is entering the river. Soon to dock beside GauntletX.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Joel on 01/03/2015 09:37 AM

Because SpX engineers know about the Inversion issue, their grid fin flight control software should be able to compensate for it and still maintain the desired F9 attitude control capability.
  Huh?  I thought that there was no control inversion issue with grid fins (non-linear behavior yes, but still “forward”) unless there was a secondary reason, such as when the wake of the grid fins acts on another surface of the vehicle.?.  I’m definitely not authoritative enough to say that for fact but I want to swing that out there as bait to see if we can get someone with a solid background to put this to bed (or not).


I didn't follow the above discussion in detail but I can imagine that modelling the physics becomes more challenging if you want to allow flow reversal. Numerical stability requires you to use an upwind scheme, cf. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upwind_scheme. This is relevant both for a high fidelity model for simulation/validation and for a simplified model used by a controller and/or state estimator. Sorry if I misunderstood the question.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/03/2015 09:52 AM
I was all set recording the feed woke up to find its gone THANKS for new link PhilW. And  I think we need 'Name the Barge thread"  ;D

EDIT: Updating every minute. If you open image in separate tab and 'refresh' it updates every refresh. So this way is faster than previous 30sec or 1 min refresh rate :D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/03/2015 10:18 AM
I was all set recording the feed wake to find its gone THANKS for new link PhilW. And  I think we need 'Name the Barge thread"  ;D

EDIT: Updating every minute. If you open image in separate tab and 'refresh' it updates every refresh. So this way is faster than previous 30sec or 1 min refresh rate :D
Nice find.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cartman on 01/03/2015 10:37 AM
It's there!!! webcam updates every ~7 sec
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/03/2015 10:52 AM
It's there!!! webcam updates every ~7 sec
Nice.
Best luck the web cam is still there when GauntletX returns with F9 secured to the deck / glove. ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cartman on 01/03/2015 11:11 AM
Here is a video from the arrival of Carnival Fascination
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Misha Vargas on 01/03/2015 12:21 PM
There's at least 5–6 people hangin' out, scurrying on and around the barge.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cartman on 01/03/2015 12:32 PM
I can see people moving about the other ships as well, so I believe they are preparing to leave port.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/03/2015 03:45 PM
It's there!!! webcam updates every ~7 sec
Nice.
Best luck the web cam is still there when GauntletX returns with F9 secured to the deck / glove. ;)
There will also be a bridge view, I hope people will be there with cameras.

From the ship cam, we might see the crane work though!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/03/2015 04:13 PM
Container doors are open. Prep for departure? Go Quest will need 2 move 1st, so ElsBeth III can attach to GauntletX.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Llian Rhydderch on 01/03/2015 04:16 PM
Here is a video from the arrival of Carnival Fascination

Thanks, cartman.

Does anyone have the programs and ability to keep a screen capture program running to capture every frame (whether 30 s or 7s) so that we might later be able to see and analyze a departure video for ASDS, GoQuest and Elsbeth III?  Watching the prep, no. of people visible on board, etc.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/03/2015 04:20 PM
Here is a video from the arrival of Carnival Fascination

Thanks, cartman.

Does anyone have the programs and ability to keep a screen capture program running to capture every frame (whether 30 s or 7s) so that we might later be able to see and analyze a departure video for ASDS, GoQuest and Elsbeth III?  Watching the prep, no. of people visible on board, etc.


I have been using a python script to capture every 7 seconds. And reddit user 'doersino' is recording and  releases mp4 and jpegs.

http://tmp.hejnoah.com/webcam_dl/carnival_fascination/
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Lars-J on 01/03/2015 04:28 PM

It's there!!! webcam updates every ~7 sec
Nice.
Best luck the web cam is still there when GauntletX returns with F9 secured to the deck / glove. ;)

Stop making up your own names for things. Just stop it.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/03/2015 04:33 PM
Thrusters are being tested / run up.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/03/2015 05:15 PM
All I have seen so far is lot of activity in/out/top of containers and deck cleaning...and random huddles over deck...I don't think they did anything to thrusters so far :P
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/03/2015 05:22 PM
All I have seen so far is lot of activity in/out/top of containers and deck cleaning...and random huddles over deck...I don't think they did anything to thrusters so far :P
Was a line of water churning up directly away from the aft starboard thruster for maybe 30 sec. Started small but built up to almost reach the dock side. As a Yachtie, know what it looks like in the water when you warm up the diesel.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: kch on 01/03/2015 05:26 PM

It's there!!! webcam updates every ~7 sec
Nice.
Best luck the web cam is still there when GauntletX returns with F9 secured to the deck / glove. ;)

Stop making up your own names for things. Just stop it.

"We are not a Mews'd"?   ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/03/2015 05:40 PM

It's there!!! webcam updates every ~7 sec
Nice.
Best luck the web cam is still there when GauntletX returns with F9 secured to the deck / glove. ;)

Stop making up your own names for things. Just stop it.

"We are not a Mews'd"?   ;)

Even worse, something something make him run the gauntlet something.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Lar on 01/03/2015 05:56 PM
Ixnay on the naming posts, take that to the party thread.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: geza on 01/03/2015 06:13 PM
All I have seen so far is lot of activity in/out/top of containers and deck cleaning...and random huddles over deck...I don't think they did anything to thrusters so far :P
Was a line of water churning up directly away from the aft starboard thruster for maybe 30 sec. Started small but built up to almost reach the dock side. As a Yachtie, know what it looks like in the water when you warm up the diesel.
Seemingly, they are not in hurry. If I were them I would depart early morning. Testing everything today and leaving tomorrow?

By the way, do they know that we observe them? :-)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/03/2015 06:21 PM
I have a new theory on ASDS deck.. It is an Ice skating rink.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Robotbeat on 01/03/2015 06:24 PM
...
By the way, do they know that we observe them? :-)
Is it possible that some people at SpaceX are on the Internet? ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: John-H on 01/03/2015 07:10 PM
There is one thing I am not clear on yet. How much "cross range" does the landing stage have?  If some factor such as high level winds move the landing point, how much can they recover while the stage is on final approach?  It would a shame to see a perfect touchdown, but a quarter mile away from the barge.

John
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cartman on 01/03/2015 07:16 PM
Yes, i am running one as well, loosely based on the code of doersino. That's how i found the 7sec interval.

Here is a video from the arrival of Carnival Fascination

Thanks, cartman.

Does anyone have the programs and ability to keep a screen capture program running to capture every frame (whether 30 s or 7s) so that we might later be able to see and analyze a departure video for ASDS, GoQuest and Elsbeth III?  Watching the prep, no. of people visible on board, etc.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/03/2015 07:39 PM
There is one thing I am not clear on yet. How much "cross range" does the landing stage have?  If some factor such as high level winds move the landing point, how much can they recover while the stage is on final approach?  It would a shame to see a perfect touchdown, but a quarter mile away from the barge.

John

That's the main function of the grid fins - to correct for unexpected wind and for any errors in the reentry burn.

Ever since we learned about F9R, this question always lingered - how do you control stage between the reentry burn and the terminal landing burn.  The idea of only doing it with cold gas RCS and stage attitude seemed a little "underpowered". It turned out to be enough to stabilize the stage so it does not tumble, but not enough to guarantee that can hit the box from which terminal landing can take place.

There were many speculations about active control surfaces, either on the front (active feet, etc) or on the back, and even one poster guessed it right, suggesting grid fins.

There are 20-30 km of useful atmosphere, and I hope they can affect a 5-10% off-vertical path, so a post-insertion burn correction of 1-3 km?

Actually it can be a lot more if the stage still has significant horizontal motion at 20-30 km.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/03/2015 07:59 PM
They inflated something near Elsbeth III and deflated it.

EDIT: http://www.cruisin.me/cruise-ship-webcams/carnival-cruise-lines/carnival-fascination.php is back. Also footage is frozen at the moment.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Avron on 01/03/2015 08:03 PM
There is one thing I am not clear on yet. How much "cross range" does the landing stage have?  If some factor such as high level winds move the landing point, how much can they recover while the stage is on final approach?  It would a shame to see a perfect touchdown, but a quarter mile away from the barge.

John

That's the main function of the grid fins - to correct for unexpected wind and for any errors in the reentry burn.

Ever since we learned about F9R, this question always lingered - how do you control stage between the reentry burn and the terminal landing burn.  The idea of only doing it with cold gas RCS and stage attitude seemed a little "underpowered". It turned out to be enough to stabilize the stage so it does not tumble, but not enough to guarantee that can hit the box from which terminal landing can take place.

There were many speculations about active control surfaces, either on the front (active feet, etc) or on the back, and even one poster guessed it right, suggesting grid fins.

There are 20-30 km of useful atmosphere, and I hope they can affect a 5-10% off-vertical path, so a post-insertion burn correction of 1-3 km?

Actually it can be a lot more if the stage still has significant horizontal motion at 20-30 km.

A rotating cylinder can create significant lift , thus can be used as a lifting body and get a good deal of x range
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Helodriver on 01/03/2015 08:28 PM
They inflated something near Elsbeth III and deflated it.

EDIT: http://www.cruisin.me/cruise-ship-webcams/carnival-cruise-lines/carnival-fascination.php is back. Also footage is frozen at the moment.


Possibly one of these? Tough to tell, but about the right size. I've used one, live internet to/from anywhere with good data rates.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Darga on 01/03/2015 08:36 PM
Carnival Fascination has just left so unfortunately we won't be able to see the barge depart. We will have to settle for tracking the Go Quest and ELSBETH III.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: akku on 01/03/2015 09:12 PM
ELSBETH III moving !
is on the way to the other side ASDS
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/03/2015 09:15 PM
They inflated something near Elsbeth III and deflated it.

EDIT: http://www.cruisin.me/cruise-ship-webcams/carnival-cruise-lines/carnival-fascination.php is back. Also footage is frozen at the moment.


Possibly one of these? Tough to tell, but about the right size. I've used one, live internet to/from anywhere with good data rates.

Took about ~7min to inflate and it was gone with in 7 seconds .. I think it popped whatever it was.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: mme on 01/03/2015 09:15 PM
...

That's the main function of the grid fins - to correct for unexpected wind and for any errors in the reentry burn.

...

A rotating cylinder can create significant lift , thus can be used as a lifting body and get a good deal of x range

They explicitly don't rotate the stage.  Also the stage enters engines first, not broadside as would be required to generate lift.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: QuantumG on 01/03/2015 09:19 PM
Surely that's a weather balloon.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Comga on 01/03/2015 09:51 PM
Surely that's a weather balloon.
He showed it to be an inflatable 2.4 meter satellite antenna.
And stop calling him Shirley.  8)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Mapperuo on 01/03/2015 09:51 PM
Surely that's a weather balloon.

Would agree. And it popping isn't why it vanished in 7 seconds, they let it go, would be my guess.  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: deruch on 01/03/2015 09:54 PM
Surely that's a weather balloon.

Would agree. And it popping isn't why it vanished in 7 seconds, they let it go, would be my guess.  :)

You can clearly see that it comes off the ground when inflated, which means balloon to me. 

Good call QuantumG!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/03/2015 09:57 PM
Surely that's a weather balloon.

Thats it I guess  :-[  Anyway there is another cam (http://dataservices.namapmterminals.com/apmt/cameras2.aspx?address1=http://10.1.197.151/axis-cgi/jpg/image.cgi?resolution=352x288&address2=http://10.1.197.153/axis-cgi/jpg/image.cgi?resolution=352x288) (Thanks to reddit user Shrubit for finding out) and its on Darga's Assets Map (https://mapsengine.google.com/map/viewer?mid=zp15b_P5ERVk.kug19Cmf8b3s) and doersino is recording that as well. Would be good for seeing it go.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Comga on 01/03/2015 10:11 PM
What do we see on this new cam?
I can't make out anything on my tiny screen.
~60 hrs to T-0.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/03/2015 10:18 PM
What do we see on this new cam?
I can't make out anything on my tiny screen.
~60 hrs to T-0.

One is facing river. Today it captured Fascination leave.

EDIT: ooh new tug near barge (GREGG_MCALLISTER) ?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Eer on 01/03/2015 10:24 PM
ELSBETH III moving !
is on the way to the other side ASDS
Welcome to the forum, and to the watch!

Elsbeth III seems to be moving away, and another tug, the Gregg McAllister, appears to have taken position with Go Quest and the BargeX.

https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:442829/mmsi:367379660/imo:9549542/vessel:GREGG_MCALLISTER

The new tug's destination is not disclosed.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cartman on 01/03/2015 11:05 PM
I think I caught them on the camera Darga kindly sent me, here are the only 3 frames that have some action.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: deruch on 01/03/2015 11:08 PM
What do we see on this new cam?
I can't make out anything on my tiny screen.
~60 hrs to T-0.

You can split the 2 port cam streams into separate pages so that the images are larger:

http://dataservices.namapmterminals.com/apmt/cameras.aspx?address=http://10.1.197.151/axis-cgi/jpg/image.cgi

http://dataservices.namapmterminals.com/apmt/cameras.aspx?address=http://10.1.197.153/axis-cgi/jpg/image.cgi
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/03/2015 11:09 PM
Wooosh!! What a sight! Off it goes  ;D

Doersino just posted this sweet video
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cartman on 01/03/2015 11:13 PM
Great, fortunately he managed to get many more frames than i did.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: akku on 01/03/2015 11:15 PM
nice  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Helodriver on 01/03/2015 11:30 PM
They inflated something near Elsbeth III and deflated it.

EDIT: http://www.cruisin.me/cruise-ship-webcams/carnival-cruise-lines/carnival-fascination.php is back. Also footage is frozen at the moment.


Possibly one of these? Tough to tell, but about the right size. I've used one, live internet to/from anywhere with good data rates.

Took about ~7min to inflate and it was gone with in 7 seconds .. I think it popped whatever it was.

Now that I've seen the video, I'd have to agree with weather balloon. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: deruch on 01/03/2015 11:32 PM
Now I think it might be swamp gas.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/03/2015 11:44 PM
They inflated something near Elsbeth III and deflated it.

EDIT: http://www.cruisin.me/cruise-ship-webcams/carnival-cruise-lines/carnival-fascination.php is back. Also footage is frozen at the moment.


Possibly one of these? Tough to tell, but about the right size. I've used one, live internet to/from anywhere with good data rates.

Took about ~7min to inflate and it was gone with in 7 seconds .. I think it popped whatever it was.

Now that I've seen the video, I'd have to agree with weather balloon.

That is seriously funny....

As for the balloon, the weather balloons I've seen start out as pumpkin-looking bags - and you also have to wonder - why launch a weather balloon ahead of tugging a barge across the water?

But otherwise, I have no opinion on what or why it was.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: QuantumG on 01/03/2015 11:48 PM
why launch a weather balloon ahead of tugging a barge across the water?

To know the weather situation?

I'm enjoying following the progress on Marine Traffic, it's kinda like the old days of Copenhagen Suborbitals.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: akku on 01/03/2015 11:51 PM
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/structure/launch/index.html#.VKiOS4fGBjY
60% go
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/03/2015 11:52 PM
why launch a weather balloon ahead of tugging a barge across the water?

To know the weather situation?

I'm enjoying following the progress on Marine Traffic, it's kinda like the old days of Copenhagen Suborbitals.

Heh, 100% on the fun.  This is just a tad more lofty than listening to trucker traffic on the scanner  :)

As for the balloon, which is (allegedly?) headed up above the port of Jacksonville, it's going to tell them what the weather is like at the exact location where they are the most not at...  Or rather, at a location which is almost, but not quite, entirely irrelevant to where they're going and when they'll be there.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: QuantumG on 01/03/2015 11:56 PM
As for the balloon, which is (allegedly?) headed up above the port of Jacksonville, it's going to tell them what the weather is like at the exact location where they are the most not at...  Or rather, at a location which is almost, but not quite, entirely irrelevant to where they're going and when they'll be there.

To get to where you're going, it helps to know the weather where you are... but perhaps they just wanted to know if it worked.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cscott on 01/04/2015 12:09 AM
As for the balloon, which is (allegedly?) headed up above the port of Jacksonville, it's going to tell them what the weather is like at the exact location where they are the most not at...  Or rather, at a location which is almost, but not quite, entirely irrelevant to where they're going and when they'll be there.

To get to where you're going, it helps to know the weather where you are... but perhaps they just wanted to know if it worked.

Sure, it would make sense to run through the weather balloon launch procedure on board to make sure that you can still nip into town to fetch the things you forgot to pack on board.  And they might have been testing their comms gear.  My understanding is that you launch these things with a little weather package on board to tell you data on winds aloft.   Presumably there's a receiver on board.

Or else they had an extra balloon and just thought it would be fun to let it fly. ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/04/2015 12:09 AM
The Go Quest shows a destination: "Blake Plateau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blake_Plateau)"
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: QuantumG on 01/04/2015 12:11 AM
So, are you thinking they're going to go north when they get out of Saint Johns River?

I was guessing south.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/04/2015 12:15 AM
I'm just saying what they're saying...   It should be under the flight path, except for whatever changes they introduce on the boost-back burn.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/04/2015 12:38 AM
The McAllister has turned back, it was just assisting through the river
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: QuantumG on 01/04/2015 12:39 AM
OMG, the Elsbeth III and Gregg Mcallister have split up! Gregg seems to be heading back into St Johns River while Elsbeth III is still heading east.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: deruch on 01/04/2015 12:39 AM
The McAllister has turned back, it was just assisting through the river

Maybe some extra river piloting due to the nighttime departure?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/04/2015 12:44 AM
This is a visual from the Elsbeth page.  Just amazing.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Barrie on 01/04/2015 12:49 AM
Go Quest is now giving chase
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/04/2015 12:50 AM
Eeeeyup.  Was showing 1.6 knots there for a while, but now definitely moving.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Eer on 01/04/2015 01:05 AM
Current course for Elsbeth is 68 degrees, heading north east from the mouth of the river.

[Edit] - ok, too early to tell - now it's heading is 80 degrees. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: speedevil on 01/04/2015 01:41 AM
Surely that's a weather balloon.

Would agree. And it popping isn't why it vanished in 7 seconds, they let it go, would be my guess.  :)

The reason it popped is due to them following the normal procedure for testing inflatable antennas.

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bQ17RQvKTJg#t=70 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=bQ17RQvKTJg#t=70)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: CJ on 01/04/2015 03:13 AM
Could this be an escape attempt by the ASDS not-a-barge, an attempt to flee its bio-based overlords for freedom on the open seas? 

Hrmmm... on a slightly more serious note, it appears that Elbeth III is either beyond AIS range from shore, or, has shut off its AIS transponder. My guess is the former; it's a fairly low boat, so I'd expect it to lose signal sooner than something with a higher-mounted AIS transponder.

I'll also add that I wish SpaceX the best possible luck with their recovery endeavor. I'll be pleasantly surprised if they succeed this time (too many unknowns that might bite them) but I'd bet money they do so soon.

It also looks to me as if I'm getting closer to winning a bet I made two years ago; that the first time SpaceX recovers a stage that has the potential for reuse (so other than a water landing) it'd be from a barge or oil rig type platform. My friend was adamant that SpaceX was only interested in RTLS, and unswayed by the arguments against it for some missions (such as ones with insufficient residual fuel, early flights, etc). So, the bet was made. I haven't yet decided how to spend my winnings (no sense in counting chickens pre-hatching) but I can feel it getting closer. (it's $1. I'll try to avoid spending it all in one place).

   

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: QuantumG on 01/04/2015 03:48 AM
Hrmmm... on a slightly more serious note, it appears that Elbeth III is either beyond AIS range from shore, or, has shut off its AIS transponder. My guess is the former; it's a fairly low boat, so I'd expect it to lose signal sooner than something with a higher-mounted AIS transponder.

Nah, those transponders work great. I expect they intentionally stopped transmitting. (91 mins ago from Elsbeth III and 45 mins ago from Go Quest.)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: CJ on 01/04/2015 04:19 AM
Hrmmm... on a slightly more serious note, it appears that Elbeth III is either beyond AIS range from shore, or, has shut off its AIS transponder. My guess is the former; it's a fairly low boat, so I'd expect it to lose signal sooner than something with a higher-mounted AIS transponder.

Nah, those transponders work great. I expect they intentionally stopped transmitting. (91 mins ago from Elsbeth III and 45 mins ago from Go Quest.)

I was about to disagree with you on that, until I noticed that both ships went dark at about the 12 mile limit. That's rather close for that particular AIS station (960 David, at the harbor mouth) to lose them - and Go Quest looks to have higher antenna mounts than the tug, so it should have lost Go Quest further out, not closer in as it did. It'd make sense for them to go dark; the last thing they need is for a few boats of curious folks to follow them to the landing area.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: deruch on 01/04/2015 04:39 AM
Assumption: They are out of coastal waters (12 mile limit) and therefore can turn the transponder off.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: OxCartMark on 01/04/2015 05:44 AM
Nothing to see here folks, just wait for your ship to come in.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: QuantumG on 01/04/2015 06:14 AM
It'd make sense for them to go dark; the last thing they need is for a few boats of curious folks to follow them to the landing area.

SpaceX seem to be quite adept at taking away our fun. :)

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/04/2015 06:42 AM
It'd make sense for them to go dark; the last thing they need is for a few boats of curious folks to follow them to the landing area.

SpaceX seem to be quite adept at taking away our fun. :)

Given that I just spent a good few hours staring at the tracks of a couple of boats on a web site, boats that I knew exactly what they're going, and when they'll drop off the map, honestly, I'm ok with the quiet period until the launch.

I really do, really, have things I need to do.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: akku on 01/04/2015 08:26 AM
Assumption: They are out of coastal waters (12 mile limit) and therefore can turn the transponder off.
NO
Transponder: limit mainland ais receiver: marinetrafic is a private site
http://www.marinetraffic.com/de/p/satellite-ais  <   dollars

ais is primary ship2ship
radar replacement  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Barrie on 01/04/2015 09:34 AM
I'm seeing a position for Go Quest which is only 15 minutes old, so it seems they have not deliberately gone stealth
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: sdsds on 01/04/2015 10:24 AM
"AIS Source: 1142 Charleston Pilots"
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Barrie on 01/04/2015 10:56 AM
"AIS Source: 1142 Charleston Pilots"

Ah, yes, and now there is an updated position for Elsbeth III from the same source.  Status is 'Restricted Manoeuvrability', consistent with towing a BFB  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: speedevil on 01/04/2015 01:03 PM
"AIS Source: 1142 Charleston Pilots"

Ah, yes, and now there is an updated position for Elsbeth III from the same source.  Status is 'Restricted Manoeuvrability', consistent with towing a BFB  :)

And now properly out of range I think.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/04/2015 01:59 PM
Looking at Google Maps, I noticed something.  For the ASDS to dock where it does, it must first pass under I-295 on the St. John's River.  While obviously the Carnival Cruise ships pass under that bridge, and they are tall by any normal standards for ships, does that bridge provide the approximately 160' clearance that the ASDS with a Falcon 9 first stage standing up on it would need to pass underneath? 

Answered my own question: Wikipedia tells me that the bridge has 175 feet (53m) clearance below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dames_Point_Bridge

Now that would be quite a photo-op.  And imagine the traffic jam on the bridge from the rubber-neckers as the barge passes by.

(http://www.cruisenewsdaily.com/nf40315i.jpg)


And that Ship is Carnival Miracle it passed with 6ft to spare and traffic was halted on bridge...

Cruise ship operators could pull out business so to ensure safe passage of these ships NOAA installed Air
 Gap System on Dames point bridge it gives very accurate water level readings. And you can monitor those here.

http://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/ports/ports.html?id=8720376&mode=airgap

http://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/ports/ports.html?id=8720376&mode=threedaysag

And are we sure about 160' figure? Marmac 300 has 18' height how long is falcon 9 first stage + I/E when on its legs? I think it should be ~47m any good source?

172ft Max. now how much ASDS can adjust its buoyancy with ballast is out there. By the way http://www.mcdonoughmarine.com/assets/pdf/MARMAC-300.pdf shows all tanks on MARMAC300 and their capacity.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: speedevil on 01/04/2015 02:13 PM

172ft Max. now how much ASDS can adjust its buoyancy with ballast is out there. By the way http://www.mcdonoughmarine.com/assets/pdf/MARMAC-300.pdf shows all tanks on MARMAC300 and their capacity.

From memory, the sum of those ballast tanks is 13000 tons of fresh water.
The marmac 300 hull footprint is about 80m*50m (several meters of hull at the ftront and back will be out of the water - it's quite steep).
This is about 4000m^2.
With fresh water, this can depress the ship by about 3m.
With seawater, a little more.

And if they have done their sums, and for example - done some light modifications and poured gravel into the ballast tanks to the same as nominal cargo weight - it could be even lower.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/04/2015 02:41 PM
Ballast capacity is 4,105,360 gallons. With sea water, that's about 17,550 tons.

http://cfpub2.epa.gov/npdes/vessels/vesselsnoidetail.cfm?PermitId=131541&status=Active
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Nomadd on 01/04/2015 02:49 PM
 Listed ballast refers to tanks set up for properly monitored and filtered for legal discharge. They can also flood cargo holds, like they did to raise the Delta Conveyor, and bring that deck so low it looks like a raft. They just couldn't discharge the water at will without proper procedures. Part of the modifications could have been lining the cargo holds and setting them up as ballast tanks.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/04/2015 02:56 PM
Would be interesting to know how much of the ballast capacity, if any, they will use at sea. The downside of ballast is that it lowers freeboard and makes the deck more likely to be swept by waves in heavy seas. I guess there's happy medium somewhere.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: OxCartMark on 01/04/2015 03:43 PM
Listed ballast refers to tanks set up for properly monitored and filtered for legal discharge. They can also flood cargo holds, like they did to raise the Delta Conveyor, and bring that deck so low it looks like a raft. They just couldn't discharge the water at will without proper procedures. Part of the modifications could have been lining the cargo holds and setting them up as ballast tanks.
I'm not an expert, but I believe that this being a deck barge from initial design there are no cargo holds.  Lots of internal space which can be ballasted and maybe some which was not initially set up for ballast water that may have now been converted to water ballast but I think there are no holds which were intended for cargo.  Now that I've said that, the end conclusion is the same as yours, that they may have modified it to add additional ballast capacity beyond that originally designed.  But my opinion is that extreme and unusual ballasting (or even full ballasting) won't be in the program.

Mark
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cartman on 01/04/2015 04:03 PM
Apparently Go Quest and Elsbeth III are still being tracked by vesselfinder.com!
http://www.vesselfinder.com/?mmsi=367564890

Go Quest seems to have almost stopped and turned southwards, while Elsbeth III is still continuing past it, at a 80-90 degree heading. On the third image in green is their current position on the CRS-5 Broadcast Warning Map, so they are past the midpoint towards the landing site.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: docmordrid on 01/04/2015 06:47 PM
Go Quest is classed a cargo/supply ship and has a large deck with heavy hold downs. What are the odds they'll transfer the stage to her for an upright ride back?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: ChrisWilson68 on 01/04/2015 06:51 PM
Go Quest is classed a cargo/supply ship and has a large deck with heavy hold downs. What are the odds they'll transfer the stage to her for an upright ride back?

Sounds like a risky move to me, dangling a tall rocket from a crane on a pitching deck and trying to lower it onto a different pitching deck.  Why bother?  Why not just tie it down to the ASDS deck?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: MTom on 01/04/2015 06:57 PM
Go Quest is classed a cargo/supply ship and has a large deck with heavy hold downs. What are the odds they'll transfer the stage to her for an upright ride back?

Sounds like a risky move to me, dangling a tall rocket from a crane on a pitching deck and trying to lower it onto a different pitching deck.  Why bother?  Why not just tie it down to the ASDS deck?

Actually the ship's deck isn't empty, there are some containers on it (comm., etc.).

See this pictures.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36326.msg1308396#msg1308396
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: docmordrid on 01/04/2015 06:57 PM
Ahh...was tying to parse why that kind of ship vs. another tug. Seemed a tad excessive.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: dorkmo on 01/04/2015 07:09 PM
Ahh...was tying to parse why that kind of ship vs. another tug. Seemed a tad excessive.

probably tug captains just like to tug, rather not have other stuff happening on their boats.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: ChrisWilson68 on 01/04/2015 07:10 PM
Ahh...was tying to parse why that kind of ship vs. another tug. Seemed a tad excessive.

Maybe they want to be able to land Elon's helicopter on the support ship.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cscott on 01/04/2015 07:35 PM
I think go quest is better set up for fishing pieces out of the water if it comes to that.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: rpapo on 01/04/2015 08:01 PM
And are we sure about 160' figure? Marmac 300 has 18' height how long is falcon 9 first stage + I/E when on its legs? I think it should be ~47m any good source?
SpaceFlight 101 has 42m for the first stage.  When standing on its legs, it should be about 2m taller.  Plus you have to count the height of the interstage.  Judging by proportions, it appears to be 4-5 meters in length.  That's 49 meters, which is about 160 feet.

Add to that the height of the landing deck above the water, and it's mighty close.  They may need to do it at low tide, or at least avoid high tide.

If anybody has better numbers, feel free to correct my guesstimate.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: OxCartMark on 01/04/2015 08:13 PM
SpaceFlight 101 has 42m for the first stage.  When standing on its legs, it should be about 2m taller.  Plus you have to count the height of the interstage.  Judging by proportions, it appears to be 4-5 meters in length.  That's 49 meters, which is about 160' feet.

Turning the barge sideways (rocket horizontal) would seemingly be worse, with the barge then being 170 feet tall, but if you folded one of the side wings on the deck it would only be 135 feet tall and with both wings folded only 100 feet tall.  Easy passage.

Mark
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: IslandPlaya on 01/04/2015 10:04 PM
Ah, yes...
Very funny.
Should that not be in the party thread?

Not much value will be lost, agreed, but between now and Tuesday, what else are we to do but party?

The joking gets in the way of obsessing over every movement of an empty barge and capturing webcam output every seven seconds of a scene that isn't changing for hours.
Indeed why would anyone want to watch a rocket take-off. Seen it all before...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/04/2015 10:15 PM
Ah, yes...
Very funny.
Should that not be in the party thread?

Not much value will be lost, agreed, but between now and Tuesday, what else are we to do but party?

The joking gets in the way of obsessing over every movement of an empty barge and capturing webcam output every seven seconds of a scene that isn't changing for hours.

I was using a very loose definition of the word "party"...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cartman on 01/04/2015 10:21 PM
They both have stopped transmitting, but Go Quest is still on-line on vesselfinder with a last update at 22:43 UTC. They seem to be at about 70% of the way there.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: akku on 01/04/2015 10:43 PM
funk= line offside 
ais receiver is at the coast at 162 mhz band
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: ChrisWilson68 on 01/04/2015 10:50 PM
funk= line offside 
ais receiver is at the coast at 162 mhz band

I don't understand what you mean by "funk= line offside".
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: akku on 01/04/2015 11:02 PM
funk = to transmit via radio
line offside = to many miles at the coast
(sorry my english is not perfekt)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cartman on 01/04/2015 11:12 PM
I guess that akku simply means that they are too far away from the receiver. I think he is probably right, and that also explains why Go Quest went out last, as it probably has a taller antenna mast.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: akku on 01/04/2015 11:32 PM
  :D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Roy_H on 01/05/2015 01:00 AM
I wonder if the Rocket feet have magnets in them so they stick to the ASDS steel deck when it lands.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: ChrisWilson68 on 01/05/2015 01:32 AM
I wonder if the Rocket feet have magnets in them so they stick to the ASDS steel deck when it lands.

Yeah, four huge, powerful magnets on a rocket.  What could possibly go wrong?

It might be fun to watch the crane trying to pull it off the deck when it's back in port, though.  Ever pull a powerful magnet off something and have it suddenly come flying up once you've applied just enough force because as it leaves the metal surface suddenly the magnetic attraction force falls off very quickly?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/05/2015 02:57 AM
Go Quest still updating: http://www.vesselfinder.com/?mmsi=367564890

Anybody know or would care to guess how far Go Quest and ElsBeth will stand off from ASDS during the landing? Would imagine they will be ready to move very quickly, either way.

Will ASDS be manned?

Does Go Quest carry Zodiacs or other such boats?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/05/2015 04:08 AM
Quote
Will ASDS be manned? 

Only if you volunteer. Be sure to wear your Nomex suit and hide in one of the containers during landing.  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: ChrisWilson68 on 01/05/2015 04:10 AM
Quote
Will ASDS be manned? 

Only if you volunteer.  ;)

I'll volunteer!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/05/2015 04:23 AM
For sure. Just have a rabbit hole that goes below deck level.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: deruch on 01/05/2015 04:26 AM
Quote
Will ASDS be manned? 

Only if you volunteer.  ;)

I'll volunteer!

My image of your reaction:
https://i.imgur.com/ndnBzan.gif

:)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/05/2015 04:46 AM
Quote
Will ASDS be manned? 

Only if you volunteer. Be sure to wear your Nomex suit and hide in one of the containers during landing.  ;)
I expect SpX will either nail this (if a gentle sea state) or will be a long way off target due to failure of some guidance system on the F9 or stability / position holding system on the ASDS. So being in the container with the water cannon on the roof and pumping a protective spray at full pressure should be doable.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/05/2015 04:52 AM
Oh, and don't forget your ear protection.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/05/2015 04:55 AM
Oh, and don't forget your ear protection.
Will only be a single M1D, running at min thrust, but sure still a beast.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: sdsds on 01/05/2015 05:06 AM
Apparently current data from vesselfinder, showing Go Quest and Elsbeth III approximately 2 km apart.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/05/2015 06:48 AM
Current sea state:
http://www.oceanweather.com/data/
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: sdsds on 01/05/2015 06:51 AM
Position Data:
Go Quest: JAN 05, 2015 07:10 UTC, 30.79733 N / 78.57049 W
Elsbeth III: JAN 05, 2015 07:36 UTC, 30.81664 N / 78.52643 W
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/05/2015 07:20 AM
And are we sure about 160' figure? Marmac 300 has 18' height how long is falcon 9 first stage + I/E when on its legs? I think it should be ~47m any good source?
SpaceFlight 101 has 42m for the first stage.  When standing on its legs, it should be about 2m taller.  Plus you have to count the height of the interstage.  Judging by proportions, it appears to be 4-5 meters in length.  That's 49 meters, which is about 160 feet.

Add to that the height of the landing deck above the water, and it's mighty close.  They may need to do it at low tide, or at least avoid high tide.

If anybody has better numbers, feel free to correct my guesstimate.

Using HPU height as basis in meekgee's image  I think ASDS deck was about 11.6ft high. and using Helodriver's awesome pics at Vandenberg and JimNtexas pics(July 6 2014) I think 158 ft(minus cap) is its height on legs. So plenty of margin to clear bridge and power cables.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: deruch on 01/05/2015 07:27 AM
And are we sure about 160' figure? Marmac 300 has 18' height how long is falcon 9 first stage + I/E when on its legs? I think it should be ~47m any good source?
SpaceFlight 101 has 42m for the first stage.  When standing on its legs, it should be about 2m taller.  Plus you have to count the height of the interstage.  Judging by proportions, it appears to be 4-5 meters in length.  That's 49 meters, which is about 160 feet.

Add to that the height of the landing deck above the water, and it's mighty close.  They may need to do it at low tide, or at least avoid high tide.

If anybody has better numbers, feel free to correct my guesstimate.

Using HPU height as basis in meekgee's image  I think ASDS deck was about 11.6ft high. and using Helodriver's awesome pics at Vandenberg and JimNtexas pics(July 6 2014) I think 158 ft(minus cap) is its height on legs. So plenty of margin to clear bridge and power cables.

Does that include the interstage?


Current sea state:
http://www.oceanweather.com/data/

Current sea state:
Blue, to varying degrees.  ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/05/2015 07:53 AM
Yes it does include inter stage. With cap I meant the cone part onto which crane hooks. Now I wonder how it will get unloaded without it..
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Dave G on 01/05/2015 08:04 AM
SpaceX specs Falcon 9 (http://www.spacex.com/falcon9) at 68.4m (224.4 feet). 

What does this mean?
1) The combined height of the first and second stages only?
2) The height of an F9 with Dragon?
3) The height of an F9 with a satellite PLF?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/05/2015 08:21 AM
SpaceX specs Falcon 9 (http://www.spacex.com/falcon9) at 68.4m (224.4 feet). 

What does this mean?
1) The combined height of the first and second stages only?
2) The height of an F9 with Dragon?
3) The height of an F9 with a satellite PLF?


From measurements I think its 3.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Dave G on 01/05/2015 08:42 AM
SpaceX specs Falcon 9 (http://www.spacex.com/falcon9) at 68.4m (224.4 feet). 

What does this mean?
1) The combined height of the first and second stages only?
2) The height of an F9 with Dragon?
3) The height of an F9 with a satellite PLF?

From measurements I think its 3.

Then measuring this picture, and scaling for 224.4 feet, it looks like the first stage is 163 feet tall, with the interstage, but without legs.


Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/05/2015 09:08 AM
SpaceX specs Falcon 9 (http://www.spacex.com/falcon9) at 68.4m (224.4 feet). 

What does this mean?
1) The combined height of the first and second stages only?
2) The height of an F9 with Dragon?
3) The height of an F9 with a satellite PLF?

From measurements I think its 3.

Then measuring this picture, and scaling for 224.4 feet, it looks like the first stage is 163 feet tall, with the interstage, but without legs.

This is not very good picture for reference. Vandenberg pictures are pretty good as they are taken from a height. Also did you use diameter(12ft) or fairing height(43ft) to deduce?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Dave G on 01/05/2015 09:19 AM
This is not very good picture for reference. Vandenberg pictures are pretty good as they are taken from a height. Also did you use diameter(12ft) or fairing height(43ft) to deduce?

I measured the total height and the height of the first stage, and then scaled for a total height of 224.4 feet.

The camera angle creates a linear perspective (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perspective_(visual)#Linear_perspective) which should scale both measurements equally, unless there are fish-eye type lens distortions, which this picture doesn't appear to have.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/05/2015 09:41 AM
Yes it does include inter stage. With cap I meant the cone part onto which crane hooks. Now I wonder how it will get unloaded without it..
Maybe that is the intended use of the white adapter that was sitting in front of the 4 x Grey/Blue F9 supports? Bolts into the interstage to allow the F9 to be crane lifted?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Dave G on 01/05/2015 09:45 AM
Well, this picture produces different results.  Measuring this and scaling for 224.4 feet, it looks like the first stage is 155 feet tall, with the interstage, but without legs.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/05/2015 09:46 AM
This is not very good picture for reference. Vandenberg pictures are pretty good as they are taken from a height. Also did you use diameter(12ft) or fairing height(43ft) to deduce?

I measured the total height and the height of the first stage, and then scaled for a total height of 224.4 feet.

The camera angle creates a linear perspective (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perspective_(visual)#Linear_perspective) which should scale both measurements equally, unless there are fish-eye type lens distortions, which this picture doesn't appear to have.
Would trust SpX has already done this math, way before they leased the dock side land & installed the F9 supports.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/05/2015 10:03 AM
This is not very good picture for reference. Vandenberg pictures are pretty good as they are taken from a height. Also did you use diameter(12ft) or fairing height(43ft) to deduce?

I measured the total height and the height of the first stage, and then scaled for a total height of 224.4 feet.

The camera angle creates a linear perspective (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perspective_(visual)#Linear_perspective) which should scale both measurements equally, unless there are fish-eye type lens distortions, which this picture doesn't appear to have.

Curved fairing when seen from below would give wrong measurement. What I do is take a decent image which is sharp and taken from far such that the joining lines between stages is as straight as possible after that use diameter or fairing height as reference and scale it up to full length to get proportional relation then multiply it with known number.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Dave G on 01/05/2015 10:06 AM
Would trust SpX has already done this math, way before they leased the dock side land & installed the F9 supports.

Yeah, but its gonna be pretty close to the bottom of the bridge.  As others have said, it'll be a great photo op.  Be surprised if that picture doesn't make the major news outlets.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: rpapo on 01/05/2015 11:02 AM
Yes it does include inter stage. With cap I meant the cone part onto which crane hooks. Now I wonder how it will get unloaded without it..
That cap won't be there.  After the second stage departs, the top of the interstage is an empty tube which used to contain the Merlin 1D Vacuum engine and its nozzle.  That empty space is a cylinder about 15-20 feet deep, and close to 12 feet across.  Look at the recent pictures of the interstage with the grid fins extended to get the idea.

Which of course begs the question of what exactly they are going to connect the crane hook too.  They have to have something, since they did something similar for the stage acceptance tests back in MacGregor (though the interstage might not have been present there).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: deruch on 01/05/2015 11:05 AM
Yes it does include inter stage. With cap I meant the cone part onto which crane hooks. Now I wonder how it will get unloaded without it..
That cap won't be there.  After the second stage departs, the top of the interstage is an empty tube which used to contain the Merlin 1D Vacuum engine and its nozzle.  That empty space is a cylinder about 15-20 feet deep, and close to 12 feet across.  Look at the recent pictures of the interstage with the grid fins extended to get the idea.

Which of course begs the question of what exactly they are going to connect the crane hook too.  They have to have something, since they did something similar for the stage acceptance tests back in MacGregor (though the interstage might not have been present there).

I think he realizes that the cap won't be on it.  Otherwise why would he comment on the difficulties of transferring the stage without it?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: OxCartMark on 01/05/2015 11:16 AM
Yes it does include inter stage. With cap I meant the cone part onto which crane hooks. Now I wonder how it will get unloaded without it..
Maybe that is the intended use of the white adapter that was sitting in front of the 4 x Grey/Blue F9 supports? Bolts into the interstage to allow the F9 to be crane lifted?
That is my belief.

Mark
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cartman on 01/05/2015 12:15 PM
They are now about 3.3 nautical miles away from their target, so they should be there in an hour or so.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/05/2015 12:29 PM
Last launch attempt, both ships apparently turned their AIS transponders off shortly after leaving port. Wonder why this time is different.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: deruch on 01/05/2015 12:37 PM
Last launch attempt, both ships apparently turned their AIS transponders off shortly after leaving port. Wonder why this time is different.

Maybe they didn't.  Maybe we just didn't have anyone track them on the vesselfinder.com site?  They dropped off the marinetraffic.com site at about the same point as we lost them on the previous attempt. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/05/2015 01:00 PM
Last launch attempt, both ships apparently turned their AIS transponders off shortly after leaving port. Wonder why this time is different.

Maybe they didn't.  Maybe we just didn't have anyone track them on the vesselfinder.com site?  They dropped off the marinetraffic.com site at about the same point as we lost them on the previous attempt.

Yes, last time I checked periodically on the Marine Traffic app and they were offline for the entire time at sea. This time they are still online with Marine Traffic, so something is different.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: robertross on 01/05/2015 01:18 PM
Last launch attempt, both ships apparently turned their AIS transponders off shortly after leaving port. Wonder why this time is different.

Maybe they didn't.  Maybe we just didn't have anyone track them on the vesselfinder.com site?  They dropped off the marinetraffic.com site at about the same point as we lost them on the previous attempt.

Yes, last time I checked periodically on the Marine Traffic app and they were offline for the entire time at sea. This time they are still online with Marine Traffic, so something is different.

Maybe they realized how persistent the NSF gang is (like finding the ship webcams), and wanted us to refrain from even more clever tactics?  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: rpapo on 01/05/2015 01:28 PM
Seeing them act so optimistically, you wonder: just how on-target were those three touch-downs?  Counting Cassiope because as far as we can tell at the moment, all three landings relied on the accuracy of the boost-back and retro burns, and all of those burns came off without a hitch on all three flights.  Only the Cassiope final burn failed.

They were only aiming for 10km, but what did they actually achieve?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/05/2015 01:34 PM
Looking at ElsBeth 3's latest track, the ASDS may be separated and in station keeping mode. Vector plots suggest the 2 vessels are moving to join up, keep close to each other.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: deruch on 01/05/2015 01:49 PM
Seeing them act so optimistically, you wonder: just how on-target were those three touch-downs?  Counting Cassiope because as far as we can tell at the moment, all three landings relied on the accuracy of the boost-back and retro burns, and all of those burns came off without a hitch on all three flights.  Only the Cassiope final burn failed.

They were only aiming for 10km, but what did they actually achieve?

Analyses of the previous launches suggested that there weren't boost backs prior to CRS-4 (sideways).  At least not significant ones (i.e. not much beyond just testing a relight without trying to achieve much acceleration/deceleration).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: rpapo on 01/05/2015 01:58 PM
Seeing them act so optimistically, you wonder: just how on-target were those three touch-downs?  Counting Cassiope because as far as we can tell at the moment, all three landings relied on the accuracy of the boost-back and retro burns, and all of those burns came off without a hitch on all three flights.  Only the Cassiope final burn failed.

They were only aiming for 10km, but what did they actually achieve?

Analyses of the previous launches suggested that there weren't boost backs prior to CRS-4 (sideways).  At least not significant ones (i.e. not much beyond just testing a relight without trying to achieve much acceleration/deceleration).
Yes, but that's not precisely what I meant.  The accuracy of the landings/crashes was entirely dependent on the accuracy of those one or two burns.  The landing burn never affected accuracy, unlike in the Grasshopper divert maneuver.  So, given that they were presumably targeting something, and attempting to do so with just those burns, just how accurate were the final touchdowns/crashes?

Of course, we may never know.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Jarnis on 01/05/2015 01:59 PM
Perhaps their AIS is now satellite-capable? Lot of AIS transponders these days also can relay info via satellite when out at sea (OG2 sats that SpaceX delivered up earlier actually carry AIS payloads)

http://www.orbcomm.com/uploads/files/AIS_8-12-14.pdf

The location is definitely out of range of shore-based AIS receivers, so that seems to me like the most likely explanation.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: sghill on 01/05/2015 02:07 PM
Canaveral Buoy is reporting 2 meter wave heights, 23-24 degree Celsius air and water, and 24 knot winds with rising air pressure.  Looks like an excellent day for yachting out there this morning!

http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/station_page.php?station=41010



Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: MTom on 01/05/2015 03:04 PM
Yes it does include inter stage. With cap I meant the cone part onto which crane hooks. Now I wonder how it will get unloaded without it..
Maybe that is the intended use of the white adapter that was sitting in front of the 4 x Grey/Blue F9 supports? Bolts into the interstage to allow the F9 to be crane lifted?

We discussed it earlier, I agree with your opinion.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36326.msg1308970#msg1308970
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/05/2015 03:13 PM
Might be an early call but ElsBeth III may be heading back to port.
http://www.vesselfinder.com/?mmsi=367017460

Oops. ElsBeth3 is still doing a dance.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: speedevil on 01/05/2015 03:14 PM

Analyses of the previous launches suggested that there weren't boost backs prior to CRS-4 (sideways).  At least not significant ones (i.e. not much beyond just testing a relight without trying to achieve much acceleration/deceleration).

This doesn't mean you can't do very interesting things.
For example - if you are actually intact when you come into the denser parts of the atmosphere - even without a very well defined position on launch, you can tell the rocket to aim at the closest 0.05 degree grid-intersection, and get really useful feedback from how well the positioning system can hit a given target.
Clearly - it can't test the final landing burn - but that is very uninteresting to test from some perspectives -, as if you've not got it right to within perhaps 20m or so -you've lost anyway.

The landing event takes well under 10 seconds - the lateral G available to generate the required delta-v to start and stop a lateral acceleration is not large, and tends to lead to large attitude errors, so the position error tolerable before the actual final ignition is really small.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Nomadd on 01/05/2015 03:26 PM
Perhaps their AIS is now satellite-capable? Lot of AIS transponders these days also can relay info via satellite when out at sea (OG2 sats that SpaceX delivered up earlier actually carry AIS payloads)

http://www.orbcomm.com/uploads/files/AIS_8-12-14.pdf

The location is definitely out of range of shore-based AIS receivers, so that seems to me like the most likely explanation.

Most of them pretty much capable of sat transmission and have always been. They can generally put out a generic, limited data 4800 BPS NMEA data stream that can work over any data capable sat including Iridium, or a 38,800 serial data stream that includes all the AIS data. Some new ones will do NMEA 2000 which is 250kbps, but that probably wouldn't be used for satellite unless they wanted to send the boat's entire NMEA 2000 stream including all the other sensors that would be a part of it.
 The problem is, not many AIS tracking sites are going to have that data available.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cartman on 01/05/2015 03:26 PM
Might be an early call but ElsBeth III may be heading back to port.
http://www.vesselfinder.com/?mmsi=367017460
I guess they left the ASDS at its target and are now moving away to a safe distance.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/05/2015 03:30 PM
Might be an early call but ElsBeth III may be heading back to port.
http://www.vesselfinder.com/?mmsi=367017460
I guess they left the ASDS at its target and are now moving away to a safe distance.

Yes, both ships idling around within 1 km of each other.

Footnote: Vesselfinder.com >> Marinetraffic.com.  Vesselfinder is showing detailed ship movement in the landing zone area; Marinetraffic isn't showing any of that.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/05/2015 03:54 PM
Yes it does include inter stage. With cap I meant the cone part onto which crane hooks. Now I wonder how it will get unloaded without it..
Maybe that is the intended use of the white adapter that was sitting in front of the 4 x Grey/Blue F9 supports? Bolts into the interstage to allow the F9 to be crane lifted?

We discussed it earlier, I agree with your opinion.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36326.msg1308970#msg1308970

Now I can see it too. Nice! Those pegs could be clamps to grab the rim of inter-stage. Just those two vertical bars are throwing me off(May be a person would ride it and bolt it on?).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/05/2015 04:08 PM
Nice dance ElsBeth 3 is doing.
Maybe they are wetting a line? Fishing for dinner?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/05/2015 05:02 PM
Yes it does include inter stage. With cap I meant the cone part onto which crane hooks. Now I wonder how it will get unloaded without it..
Maybe that is the intended use of the white adapter that was sitting in front of the 4 x Grey/Blue F9 supports? Bolts into the interstage to allow the F9 to be crane lifted?

We discussed it earlier, I agree with your opinion.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36326.msg1308970#msg1308970

Now I can see it too. Nice! Those pegs could be clamps to grab the rim of inter-stage. Just those two vertical bars are throwing me off(May be a person would ride it and bolt it on?).
Someone will need to ride the hook. Will not attach itself.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cscott on 01/05/2015 05:31 PM
Yes it does include inter stage. With cap I meant the cone part onto which crane hooks. Now I wonder how it will get unloaded without it..
Maybe that is the intended use of the white adapter that was sitting in front of the 4 x Grey/Blue F9 supports? Bolts into the interstage to allow the F9 to be crane lifted?

We discussed it earlier, I agree with your opinion.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36326.msg1308970#msg1308970

Now I can see it too. Nice! Those pegs could be clamps to grab the rim of inter-stage. Just those two vertical bars are throwing me off(May be a person would ride it and bolt it on?).

Oh, hm, I assumed that the fixture was sitting on the ground upside down, and the vertical bars would actually go down into the interstage to allow it to be bolted to some structural member closer to the top of the tank/bottom of the interstage.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: llanitedave on 01/05/2015 05:43 PM
Well, this picture produces different results.  Measuring this and scaling for 224.4 feet, it looks like the first stage is 155 feet tall, with the interstage, but without legs.

Which also looks like a more horizontal perspective angle, so its probably better than the first photo.  Still could be a couple of feet off, though.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cscott on 01/05/2015 05:48 PM
This is not very good picture for reference. Vandenberg pictures are pretty good as they are taken from a height. Also did you use diameter(12ft) or fairing height(43ft) to deduce?

I measured the total height and the height of the first stage, and then scaled for a total height of 224.4 feet.

The camera angle creates a linear perspective (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perspective_(visual)#Linear_perspective) which should scale both measurements equally, unless there are fish-eye type lens distortions, which this picture doesn't appear to have.
Would trust SpX has already done this math, way before they leased the dock side land & installed the F9 supports.

Yes, but we're trying to use this information to prove/disprove a theory about the stage returning to port in the vertical orientation.  SpaceX only did this math if the stage is returning vertical.

EDIT: don't shoot the messenger, I'm just recapping the topic of debate!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/05/2015 06:05 PM
This is not very good picture for reference. Vandenberg pictures are pretty good as they are taken from a height. Also did you use diameter(12ft) or fairing height(43ft) to deduce?

I measured the total height and the height of the first stage, and then scaled for a total height of 224.4 feet.

The camera angle creates a linear perspective (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perspective_(visual)#Linear_perspective) which should scale both measurements equally, unless there are fish-eye type lens distortions, which this picture doesn't appear to have.
Would trust SpX has already done this math, way before they leased the dock side land & installed the F9 supports.

Yes, but we're trying to use this information to prove/disprove a theory about the stage returning to port in the vertical orientation.  SpaceX only did this math if the stage is returning vertical.
Why would SpX build the F9 vertical supports if the stage is returning horizontal?

There is no facitility on the ASDS to lower the stage to horizontal. At sea you can't do that using a crane on Go Quest.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: rpapo on 01/05/2015 06:40 PM
From the update thread:

Elon tweeted a pic of the barge enroute

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/552182273865699328/photo/1

Taken from air, so maybe camera drone test flight :)

There's no tugboat pushing or pulling it in this picture.  Looks to me like the barge is already station-keeping in this photo.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: mme on 01/05/2015 06:49 PM
From the update thread:

Elon tweeted a pic of the barge enroute

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/552182273865699328/photo/1

Taken from air, so maybe camera drone test flight :)

There's no tugboat pushing or pulling it in this picture.  Looks to me like the barge is already station-keeping in this photo.
Look at the "prop wash." [1]  I think it's traveling, not just station keeping.  But maybe there is a strong enough current for it to be station keeping.

[1] I'm not sure what the proper term is.  But I mean the aerated trail behind the boat.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Darga on 01/05/2015 07:12 PM
From the update thread:

Elon tweeted a pic of the barge enroute

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/552182273865699328/photo/1

Taken from air, so maybe camera drone test flight :)

There's no tugboat pushing or pulling it in this picture.  Looks to me like the barge is already station-keeping in this photo.
Look at the "prop wash." [1]  I think it's traveling, not just station keeping.  But maybe there is a strong enough current for it to be station keeping.

[1] I'm not sure what the proper term is.  But I mean the aerated trail behind the boat.

Agreed it's travelling on it's own. Go Quest and Elsbeth III were circling an area roughly 5km from the target point which means the barge would need to move there on it's own.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Nomadd on 01/05/2015 07:16 PM
Nice dance ElsBeth 3 is doing.
Maybe they are wetting a line? Fishing for dinner?
If you're not anchored and don't need to maintain position you generally don't sit still, but do a slow pattern depending on waves, wind and current. Keeps the boat a lot more stable.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: AncientU on 01/05/2015 07:23 PM
This is not very good picture for reference. Vandenberg pictures are pretty good as they are taken from a height. Also did you use diameter(12ft) or fairing height(43ft) to deduce?

I measured the total height and the height of the first stage, and then scaled for a total height of 224.4 feet.

The camera angle creates a linear perspective (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perspective_(visual)#Linear_perspective) which should scale both measurements equally, unless there are fish-eye type lens distortions, which this picture doesn't appear to have.
Would trust SpX has already done this math, way before they leased the dock side land & installed the F9 supports.

Yes, but we're trying to use this information to prove/disprove a theory about the stage returning to port in the vertical orientation.  SpaceX only did this math if the stage is returning vertical.
Why would SpX build the F9 vertical supports if the stage is returning horizontal?

There is no facitility on the ASDS to lower the stage to horizontal. At sea you can't do that using a crane on Go Quest.

Vertical supports may be needed to support the stage while legs are retracted (or removed). This would also provide a stable base while the grapple fixture, which may be remotely operated for latching, is being attached before the stage is lowered to horizontal.

Would not be cool to hit a bridge after an historic landing, so the stage may well be shipped back horizontally...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cartman on 01/05/2015 07:26 PM
Higher res image:
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: jg on 01/05/2015 07:31 PM
Nice dance ElsBeth 3 is doing.
Maybe they are wetting a line? Fishing for dinner?
If you're not anchored and don't need to maintain position you generally don't sit still, but do a slow pattern depending on waves, wind and current. Keeps the boat a lot more stable.

And don't forget the Gulf stream...  That current can be considerable, depending on exactly where you are...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cartman on 01/05/2015 07:33 PM
I think the latest image confirms that it is moving on its own, so it was taken at most a few hours ago. It will be beyond epic if they manage to get video of the landing from that exact angle!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Lars-J on 01/05/2015 08:06 PM
Geez... Judging by the update thread, is everyone and their dog now an image enhancement expert, posting what they think would look "better"?  ::) ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Helodriver on 01/05/2015 08:19 PM
Geez... Judging by the update thread, is everyone and their dog now an image enhancement expert, posting what they think would look "better"?  ::) ;)

What? You don't have the Hollywood CSI App? All the cool kids do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxq9yj2pVWk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxq9yj2pVWk)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Mongo62 on 01/05/2015 08:22 PM
Geez... Judging by the update thread, is everyone and their dog now an image enhancement expert, posting what they think would look "better"?  ::) ;)

No, but a lot of people might not have image editing software, so they are stuck looking at nearly black images. A brightened image is much easier to look at without such software.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Lars-J on 01/05/2015 09:48 PM
Geez... Judging by the update thread, is everyone and their dog now an image enhancement expert, posting what they think would look "better"?  ::) ;)

No, but a lot of people might not have image editing software, so they are stuck looking at nearly black images. A brightened image is much easier to look at without such software.

Nearly black? I think you might need want to calibrate your monitor/display driver/gamma. But the comment wasn't really directed at you per-se, even if I think you might overbrighten them  - but tastes differ. :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/05/2015 09:58 PM
Geez... Judging by the update thread, is everyone and their dog now an image enhancement expert, posting what they think would look "better"?  ::) ;)

Geez...  why so mean?   Sometimes you get additional information from an image that is less pleasing aesthetically.  It certainly did not hurt anything.

If you can do better, please go ahead and post your best effort.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Lars-J on 01/05/2015 10:14 PM
Geez... Judging by the update thread, is everyone and their dog now an image enhancement expert, posting what they think would look "better"?  ::) ;)

Geez...  why so mean?   Sometimes you get additional information from an image that is less pleasing aesthetically.  It certainly did not hurt anything.

If you can do better, please go ahead and post your best effort.

As stated in the post above, the comment was mostly directed at the "right side up!" image. But since you asked, here is how I would enhance it. (reducing color noise, playing with midtone contrast, and finally a level adjustment)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/05/2015 10:19 PM
Geez... Judging by the update thread, is everyone and their dog now an image enhancement expert, posting what they think would look "better"?  ::) ;)

Geez...  why so mean?   Sometimes you get additional information from an image that is less pleasing aesthetically.  It certainly did not hurt anything.

If you can do better, please go ahead and post your best effort.

As stated in the post above, the comment was mostly directed at the "right side up!" image. But since you asked, here is how I would enhance it. (reducing color noise, playing with midtone contrast, and finally a level adjustment)

I took the "right side up" image as a tongue-in-cheek edit. A subtle commentary on the human condition and on the frequent edits of pictures in this forum.  Same as yours, but without the mean factor.

As for your CSI effort, thanks.  I knew that secretly you just wanted to post an enhancement too, and were just fishing for someone to ask you to!

:)

Cheers.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Lars-J on 01/05/2015 10:20 PM
As for your CSI effort, thanks.  I knew that secretly you just wanted to post an enhancement too, and were just fishing for someone to ask you to!

:)

Hah!  ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Helodriver on 01/05/2015 10:33 PM
Geez... Judging by the update thread, is everyone and their dog now an image enhancement expert, posting what they think would look "better"?  ::) ;)

Geez...  why so mean?   Sometimes you get additional information from an image that is less pleasing aesthetically.  It certainly did not hurt anything.

If you can do better, please go ahead and post your best effort.

As stated in the post above, the comment was mostly directed at the "right side up!" image. But since you asked, here is how I would enhance it. (reducing color noise, playing with midtone contrast, and finally a level adjustment)

I took the "right side up" image as a tongue-in-cheek edit. A subtle commentary on the human condition and on the frequent edits of pictures in this forum.  Same as yours, but without the mean factor.

As for your CSI effort, thanks.  I knew that secretly you just wanted to post an enhancement too, and were just fishing for someone to ask you to!

:)

Cheers.


Amazing, when you play with the contrast, gamma, and levels, it is possible to bring out a LOT of previously unseen detail! Who knew?!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/05/2015 10:45 PM
Geez... Judging by the update thread, is everyone and their dog now an image enhancement expert, posting what they think would look "better"?  ::) ;)

Geez...  why so mean?   Sometimes you get additional information from an image that is less pleasing aesthetically.  It certainly did not hurt anything.

If you can do better, please go ahead and post your best effort.

As stated in the post above, the comment was mostly directed at the "right side up!" image. But since you asked, here is how I would enhance it. (reducing color noise, playing with midtone contrast, and finally a level adjustment)

I took the "right side up" image as a tongue-in-cheek edit. A subtle commentary on the human condition and on the frequent edits of pictures in this forum.  Same as yours, but without the mean factor.

As for your CSI effort, thanks.  I knew that secretly you just wanted to post an enhancement too, and were just fishing for someone to ask you to!

:)

Cheers.


Amazing, when you play with the contrast, gamma, and levels, it is possible to bring out a LOT of previously unseen detail! Who knew?!

Yeah, but it is still upside down. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: deruch on 01/06/2015 01:21 AM
cross posting this from the CRS-5 discussion thread:
Best tidbit from Elon's reddit AMA so far:

Quote from: /u/AvenueEvergreen
Previously, you've stated that you estimate a 50% probability of success with the attempted landing on the automated spaceport drone ship tomorrow. Can you discuss the factors that were considered to make that estimation?

In addition, can you talk more about the grid fins that will be flying tomorrow? How do they compare to maneuvering with cold-gas thrusters?

Quote from: Elon Musk
I pretty much made that up. I have no idea :)

The grid fins are super important for landing with precision. The aerodynamic forces are way too strong for the nitrogen thrusters. In particular, achieving pitch trim is hopeless. Our atmosphere is like molasses at Mach 4!

Quite the rigorous process there.   ;D

Well.  There goes the foundation to anyone's careful calculations to arrive at their "# of returned cores" estimate.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: dglow on 01/06/2015 01:40 AM
Hah! Man, I always read Elon's '50/50' as a considered and expectation-setting sound bite from his PR team. It's still a victory if they stick the landing, and not a disappointment if they don't. Just flippin' a coin...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: dorkmo on 01/06/2015 02:34 AM
From the update thread:

Elon tweeted a pic of the barge enroute

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/552182273865699328/photo/1

Taken from air, so maybe camera drone test flight :)

There's no tugboat pushing or pulling it in this picture.  Looks to me like the barge is already station-keeping in this photo.
Look at the "prop wash." [1]  I think it's traveling, not just station keeping.  But maybe there is a strong enough current for it to be station keeping.

[1] I'm not sure what the proper term is.  But I mean the aerated trail behind the boat.

i think there is still a possibility that this is a photo of the asds in tow.
1. barges can be pulled by long chains. it's difficult to determine with the darkness out in front of it.
2. not positive but i think its possible the 'prop wash' could be water hitting the underside of the pad's side extensions. also, i have no clue, but i'd like to think the thrusters are deeper down where they wouldnt interface with air.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/06/2015 02:38 AM
Stephen Clark's article over at SFN confirms that

Quote
If the first stage lands intact, sources said the rocket will lock on to the Marmac 300 barge and technicians will vent propellants and toxic substances carried inside the booster before it starts a two-day journey back to port.   

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: QuantumG on 01/06/2015 02:43 AM
To be clear: they'll vent the LOX and store the toxic propellant in tanks. They won't be dumping fuel into the ocean. The RP-1 will stay in the rocket. (Great, and now I can't find my source for that.. I could swear Elon said it on the AMA, but a search of his replies doesn't include "RP-1" now.)

Edit: Gee, I sure hope it wasn't L2.


Source: CRS5 prelaunch press conference.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Robotbeat on 01/06/2015 02:45 AM
darkmo: So basically you're saying Musk may be lying. I doubt it. The propwash looks like it's coming right from where the thrusters are. Additionally, there's no sign of propwash from the (imaginary, in this case) towboat. Barges are often pushed, not towed, and if they ARE towed, the chains usually are plenty short enough that you'd see the tug in the frame. And even if the tug was slightly out of the frame, the propwash would be clear in the right portion this picture.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Comga on 01/06/2015 02:45 AM
Stephen Clark's article over at SFN confirms that

Quote
If the first stage lands intact, sources said the rocket will lock on to the Marmac 300 barge and technicians will vent propellants and toxic substances carried inside the booster before it starts a two-day journey back to port. 
Over on Reddit Musk said the workers would weld the rocket onto the deck. My assumption is that they would weld "toe clips" over the feet, but that the rocket would be safer autonomously.  He stated that the RP-1 would remain onboard "like a jet".
What would safing entail beyond venting the O2, He, N2, and possibly residual TEA/TEB ?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Robotbeat on 01/06/2015 02:46 AM
From the update thread:

Elon tweeted a pic of the barge enroute

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/552182273865699328/photo/1

Taken from air, so maybe camera drone test flight :)

There's no tugboat pushing or pulling it in this picture.  Looks to me like the barge is already station-keeping in this photo.
Nope! Musk specifically said it's heading to its stationkeeping site. The barge is self-propelled.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/06/2015 02:50 AM
He stated that the RP-1 would remain onboard "like a jet".

You saw that too! It's gone now. https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2rgsan/i_am_elon_musk_ceocto_of_a_rocket_company_ama/cnfqgek

I imagine that's correct, anyway. Why would you bother draining it?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: OxCartMark on 01/06/2015 02:55 AM
For months we’ve been discussing and guessing how the thing would be secured on the barge (Low CG only, heligrid, ropes, sticky trap, etc.) and  whether it would be brought into port vertically or horizontally.  Tonight we have our answer.  And congratulations to *me* for being most right (as judged by me at least).

Bolding added below for my own gloatness

Also notice those relatively smaller blue box on ASDS share same insignia as another pair of blue boxes on ground next to compressed gas trailers, not sure if they are same but looks like same company made them.

Those are absolutely positively Miller brand welders.  http://www.millerwelds.com/products/
Less certain and less important is what in the Miller line they are.  MIG welder?  Stick welder?  Plasma cutter?  Most likely engine driven.

I suppose that they are a normal part of owning and maintaining a ship, or maybe a sign that modifications to the platform are still ongoing.  A more speculative and exotic rumor to start would be that the landing legs have steel foot plates that sit flat against the deck which the securing crew then is able to quickly weld to the deck for the trip back to port.

Edited in second thought: The red vertical pressure cylinders next to the two welders may be to support the welders (Argon, CO2, etc).  If so that's a lot of gas, but I'm not used to working on ship scale welding projects. Or maybe not related to the welders and they are CO2 for fire suppression. Then there's the two horizontal objects that may be connecting the lone welder to the shipping container.  I speculate that that lone welder is being used as an electrical generator to power whatever is going on inside the container, and delving deeper into the low probability speculation pool I'd guess that one of the things in the container is a power distribution panel to all of SpaceX's electrically powered equipment at each end of the ship.

Mark

Question to Elon tonight:
“Mr Musk,
How will you secure the first stage of the Falcon 9 to the barge when it lands? Gravity or some mechanism?”

For Yea Sayeth Elon:
“Mostly gravity. The center of gravity is pretty low for the booster, as all the engines and residual propellant is at the bottom.

We are going to weld steel shoes over the landing feet as a precautionary measure.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Robotbeat on 01/06/2015 02:58 AM
He stated that the RP-1 would remain onboard "like a jet".

You saw that too! It's gone now. https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2rgsan/i_am_elon_musk_ceocto_of_a_rocket_company_ama/cnfqgek
I thought it was said it before the AMA. I think it may have been at the CRS5 presser today.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/06/2015 03:01 AM
Best Q&A from Elon's AMA on Reddit:

Quote
Q: What daily habit do you believe has the largest positive impact on your life?
A: Showering

badabump. Now back on topic.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: dorkmo on 01/06/2015 03:02 AM
He stated that the RP-1 would remain onboard "like a jet".

You saw that too! It's gone now. https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2rgsan/i_am_elon_musk_ceocto_of_a_rocket_company_ama/cnfqgek
I thought it was said it before the AMA. I think it may have been at the CRS5 presser today.

i think it was at the presser too
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/06/2015 03:05 AM
For months we’ve been discussing and guessing how the thing would be secured on the barge (Low CG only, heligrid, ropes, sticky trap, etc.) and  whether it would be brought into port vertically or horizontally.  Tonight we have our answer.  And congratulations to *me* for being most right (as judged by me at least).

I think Elon actually read your post and said to himself, "Hmmm, that's a good idea."   ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: dorkmo on 01/06/2015 03:11 AM
From the update thread:

Elon tweeted a pic of the barge enroute

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/552182273865699328/photo/1

Taken from air, so maybe camera drone test flight :)

There's no tugboat pushing or pulling it in this picture.  Looks to me like the barge is already station-keeping in this photo.
Nope! Musk specifically said it's heading to its stationkeeping site. The barge is self-propelled.

Quote
darkmo: So basically you're saying Musk may be lying. I doubt it. The propwash looks like it's coming right from where the thrusters are. Additionally, there's no sign of propwash from the (imaginary, in this case) towboat. Barges are often pushed, not towed, and if they ARE towed, the chains usually are plenty short enough that you'd see the tug in the frame. And even if the tug was slightly out of the frame, the propwash would be clear in the right portion this picture.

not sure but i think (from the one time ive witnessed it) at sea they keep a fairly big distance. also, from the vessel finder data i think they were only going about 5 or 6 knots so i think its possible prop wash could have dissipated by the time it was in the photo frame.

not saying he's lying, just saying its still a little vague. if you see a wrecked car being towed, you could say "its heading to the body shop" :D

also, i think i see a hint of a line coming off the front. perhaps in a Y shape.  just a hint! lol dont hold me too it.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/06/2015 03:15 AM
Except that's not how it's done with ASDS. The tug pushes it.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=36326.0;attach=627173
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Robotbeat on 01/06/2015 03:21 AM
From the update thread:

Elon tweeted a pic of the barge enroute

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/552182273865699328/photo/1

Taken from air, so maybe camera drone test flight :)

There's no tugboat pushing or pulling it in this picture.  Looks to me like the barge is already station-keeping in this photo.
Nope! Musk specifically said it's heading to its stationkeeping site. The barge is self-propelled.

Quote
darkmo: So basically you're saying Musk may be lying. I doubt it. The propwash looks like it's coming right from where the thrusters are. Additionally, there's no sign of propwash from the (imaginary, in this case) towboat. Barges are often pushed, not towed, and if they ARE towed, the chains usually are plenty short enough that you'd see the tug in the frame. And even if the tug was slightly out of the frame, the propwash would be clear in the right portion this picture.

not sure but i think (from the one time ive witnessed it) at sea they keep a fairly big distance. also, from the vessel finder data i think they were only going about 5 or 6 knots so i think its possible prop wash could have dissipated by the time it was in the photo frame.

not saying he's lying, just saying its still a little vague. if you see a wrecked car being towed, you could say "its heading to the body shop" :D

also, i think i see a hint of a line coming off the front. perhaps in a Y shape.  just a hint! lol dont hold me too it.
See, even in your picture, the prop wash from the tug is very clearly visible. No hint of that in the picture of ASDS, just what looks like prop wash from the thrusters.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Helodriver on 01/06/2015 03:22 AM
Except that's not how it's done with ASDS. The tug pushes it.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=36326.0;attach=627173

Except that when it left the dock it was being pulled, by cable, with the tugboat out front. It can be seen in the time lapse video clip of the port departure.

When barges are moved out at sea they are usually towed by a long hawser cable to provide the least possible stress on the barge and the towing vessel, especially if there are swells that would strain the connections and structure of large vessels lashed tightly together.

I agree that in the tweeted picture at the front of the barge there appears to be part of a towing bridle visible extended into the water, but its tough to be certain with that lighting.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: dorkmo on 01/06/2015 03:28 AM
just noticed large chain on either side. no idea if it'd be long enough to mesh with the tow hypothesis.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: CameronD on 01/06/2015 03:30 AM
Quote
darkmo: So basically you're saying Musk may be lying. I doubt it. The propwash looks like it's coming right from where the thrusters are. Additionally, there's no sign of propwash from the (imaginary, in this case) towboat. Barges are often pushed, not towed, and if they ARE towed, the chains usually are plenty short enough that you'd see the tug in the frame. And even if the tug was slightly out of the frame, the propwash would be clear in the right portion this picture.

not sure but i think (from the one time ive witnessed it) at sea they keep a fairly big distance. also, from the vessel finder data i think they were only going about 5 or 6 knots so i think its possible prop wash could have dissipated by the time it was in the photo frame.

not saying he's lying, just saying its still a little vague. if you see a wrecked car being towed, you could say "its heading to the body shop" :D

also, i think i see a hint of a line coming off the front. perhaps in a Y shape.  just a hint! lol dont hold me too it.

Actually, the giveaway is the bow-wave.  In the high-res pic we see it's still dark (the deck lights are on) and occasional waves show it's pushing into a moderate (but not rough) sea.  If the ASDS was being towed, we'd (a) expect to see some disruption to the wave pattern around and in front - we don't - and (b) the bow wave wouldn't be pushed forwards and upwards as much as it is, since the ASDS would be following in a smoother patch of the tug-boat's wake which extends a long way back even at 5-6kts.

The other thing the bow-wave confirms is that it is indeed a regular shaped barge-style hull under the flight deck - and not the catamaran or SWATH plan-form I'd hoped for...  :(


EDIT:  ..and I'm not convinced the forward thrusters are operating, since the disturbed part of the wake appears to show turbulence consistent with one set of props extending from aft only.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Robotbeat on 01/06/2015 03:37 AM
Quote
darkmo: So basically you're saying Musk may be lying. I doubt it. The propwash looks like it's coming right from where the thrusters are. Additionally, there's no sign of propwash from the (imaginary, in this case) towboat. Barges are often pushed, not towed, and if they ARE towed, the chains usually are plenty short enough that you'd see the tug in the frame. And even if the tug was slightly out of the frame, the propwash would be clear in the right portion this picture.

not sure but i think (from the one time ive witnessed it) at sea they keep a fairly big distance. also, from the vessel finder data i think they were only going about 5 or 6 knots so i think its possible prop wash could have dissipated by the time it was in the photo frame.

not saying he's lying, just saying its still a little vague. if you see a wrecked car being towed, you could say "its heading to the body shop" :D

also, i think i see a hint of a line coming off the front. perhaps in a Y shape.  just a hint! lol dont hold me too it.

Actually, the giveaway is the bow-wave.  In the high-res pic we see it's still dark (the deck lights are on) and occasional waves show it's pushing into a moderate (but not rough) sea.  If the ASDS was being towed, we'd (a) expect to see some disruption to the wave pattern around and in front - we don't - and (b) the bow wave wouldn't be pushed forwards and upwards as much as it is, since the ASDS would be following in a smoother patch of the tug-boat's wake which extends a long way back even at 5-6kts.

The other thing the bow-wave confirms is that it is indeed a regular shaped barge-style hull under the flight deck - and not the catamaran or SWATH plan-form I'd hoped for...  :(
I agree with you totally.

However, I think a persuasive enough argument has been made that it /could/ still be under tow (though I don't believe it, considering the complete lack of any visible sign of a wake from the imaginary tug) that I must retract my "neener neener" until more information comes in that confirms it was under its own power for some of the trip to the station keeping position.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: OxCartMark on 01/06/2015 03:40 AM
Y'alls fascination with towing, pushing, or self propelled is wasted energy.  You need to get some rest and save up your bandwidth, there is a really big thing happening in a few hours.

Five minutes ago about four posts up was a picture showing 90% of the ASDS at sea from a closer and lower perspective, along with only a few words.  Where did that picture come from?  Where did it go?

I noted a few things on the deck which date that picture as very recent in my mind.  The red man lift device was within the yellow perimeter (on the playing field) and had its extensible legs and neck spread out.  One of the blue welders was on the playing field in the near right corner, there was a person on deck, and there were apparently two painted on circles of ?20 foot? diameter near the far right corner of the deck.

Question about the broadcast tomorrow:
     Will the revolution be televised?

Mark
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: CameronD on 01/06/2015 03:44 AM
Quote
darkmo: So basically you're saying Musk may be lying. I doubt it. The propwash looks like it's coming right from where the thrusters are. Additionally, there's no sign of propwash from the (imaginary, in this case) towboat. Barges are often pushed, not towed, and if they ARE towed, the chains usually are plenty short enough that you'd see the tug in the frame. And even if the tug was slightly out of the frame, the propwash would be clear in the right portion this picture.

not sure but i think (from the one time ive witnessed it) at sea they keep a fairly big distance. also, from the vessel finder data i think they were only going about 5 or 6 knots so i think its possible prop wash could have dissipated by the time it was in the photo frame.

not saying he's lying, just saying its still a little vague. if you see a wrecked car being towed, you could say "its heading to the body shop" :D

also, i think i see a hint of a line coming off the front. perhaps in a Y shape.  just a hint! lol dont hold me too it.

Actually, the giveaway is the bow-wave.  In the high-res pic we see it's still dark (the deck lights are on) and occasional waves show it's pushing into a moderate (but not rough) sea.  If the ASDS was being towed, we'd (a) expect to see some disruption to the wave pattern around and in front - we don't - and (b) the bow wave wouldn't be pushed forwards and upwards as much as it is, since the ASDS would be following in a smoother patch of the tug-boat's wake which extends a long way back even at 5-6kts.

The other thing the bow-wave confirms is that it is indeed a regular shaped barge-style hull under the flight deck - and not the catamaran or SWATH plan-form I'd hoped for...  :(
I agree with you totally.

However, I think a persuasive enough argument has been made that it /could/ still be under tow (though I don't believe it, considering the complete lack of any visible sign of a wake from the imaginary tug) that I must retract my "neener neener" until more information comes in that confirms it was under its own power for some of the trip to the station keeping position.

Of course it's possible they cast off the tow only to see how well it performed, take a quick pic for the ravenous public and then take up the tow again. ;) ..but that's not really something you'd do in the dark if you didn't have to.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/06/2015 03:46 AM
Y'alls fascination with towing, pushing, or self propelled is wasted energy.  You need to get some rest and save up your bandwidth, there is a really big thing happening in a few hours.

Five minutes ago about four posts up was a picture showing 90% of the ASDS at sea from a closer and lower perspective, along with only a few words.  Where did that picture come from?  Where did it go?

I noted a few things on the deck which date that picture as very recent in my mind.  The red man lift device was within the yellow perimeter (on the playing field) and had its extensible legs and neck spread out.  One of the blue welders was on the playing field in the near right corner, there was a person on deck, and there were apparently two painted on circles of ?20 foot? diameter near the far right corner of the deck.

Question about the broadcast tomorrow:
     Will the revolution be televised?

Mark
Is here.
From 11 Dec.
https://twitter.com/AstroMiceRule/status/552315127585067009/photo/1
Gives good idea what will await F9.
The Red & Blue targets? on the deck are interesting as there are not there when in port.
Any ideas as to what they are for?

Red ones engine covers? Blue one interstage cover?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: whitelancer64 on 01/06/2015 03:47 AM
just noticed large chain on either side. no idea if it'd be long enough to mesh with the tow hypothesis.

It looks like those are anchors.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: CameronD on 01/06/2015 03:55 AM
I'm a bit surprised we can't see any navigation lights (or even their reflection off the water)??... perhaps it wasn't quite dark enough.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/06/2015 04:08 AM
For months we’ve been discussing and guessing how the thing would be secured on the barge (Low CG only, heligrid, ropes, sticky trap, etc.) and  whether it would be brought into port vertically or horizontally.  Tonight we have our answer.  And congratulations to *me* for being most right (as judged by me at least).

Bolding added below for my own gloatness

Also notice those relatively smaller blue box on ASDS share same insignia as another pair of blue boxes on ground next to compressed gas trailers, not sure if they are same but looks like same company made them.

Those are absolutely positively Miller brand welders.  http://www.millerwelds.com/products/
Less certain and less important is what in the Miller line they are.  MIG welder?  Stick welder?  Plasma cutter?  Most likely engine driven.

I suppose that they are a normal part of owning and maintaining a ship, or maybe a sign that modifications to the platform are still ongoing.  A more speculative and exotic rumor to start would be that the landing legs have steel foot plates that sit flat against the deck which the securing crew then is able to quickly weld to the deck for the trip back to port.

Edited in second thought: The red vertical pressure cylinders next to the two welders may be to support the welders (Argon, CO2, etc).  If so that's a lot of gas, but I'm not used to working on ship scale welding projects. Or maybe not related to the welders and they are CO2 for fire suppression. Then there's the two horizontal objects that may be connecting the lone welder to the shipping container.  I speculate that that lone welder is being used as an electrical generator to power whatever is going on inside the container, and delving deeper into the low probability speculation pool I'd guess that one of the things in the container is a power distribution panel to all of SpaceX's electrically powered equipment at each end of the ship.

Mark

Question to Elon tonight:
“Mr Musk,
How will you secure the first stage of the Falcon 9 to the barge when it lands? Gravity or some mechanism?”

For Yea Sayeth Elon:
“Mostly gravity. The center of gravity is pretty low for the booster, as all the engines and residual propellant is at the bottom.

We are going to weld steel shoes over the landing feet as a precautionary measure.

Haha! I immediately thought you got that right! There is a 'Big40' diesel powered Miller welder on board :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: QuantumG on 01/06/2015 04:15 AM
He stated that the RP-1 would remain onboard "like a jet".

You saw that too! It's gone now. https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2rgsan/i_am_elon_musk_ceocto_of_a_rocket_company_ama/cnfqgek
I thought it was said it before the AMA. I think it may have been at the CRS5 presser today.

Yes, you're right. Hans said it at 48 minutes in. Thanks.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: deruch on 01/06/2015 04:18 AM

The Red & Blue targets? on the deck are interesting as there are not there when in port.
Any ideas as to what they are for?

Probably colored cables/ropes that are flemished down.  It keeps them in good condition and out of the way.

My guess is that they are used to tie up to the dock when in port and that's why they are only visible while the barge is under way.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/06/2015 04:27 AM
They really need to fix the deck i am beginning to hate that persistent puddle of water :P

Also since they are going to weld the stage on deck ... Question is to what? Hans mentioned tying it down though. Also I am not sure about how can they 'safe' the stage what does 'safe' means and can it be done autonomously? Is the LEO 23GT grabbing hold is 'saving' it ?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Robotbeat on 01/06/2015 04:29 AM
Vent the LOX, perhaps, and perhaps also the helium pressurant. Then you just have the RP-1 in the tank "like a jet."
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/06/2015 04:30 AM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6pJ9sBIQAE_f1K.jpg
https://twitter.com/dillon_thoms/status/552335228610822145/photo/1
Nice detail.
Note the guy in the Grey hoodie / spray jacket.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: deruch on 01/06/2015 04:34 AM
Yep.  Ropes and cables.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Jarnis on 01/06/2015 04:42 AM
They really need to fix the deck i am beginning to hate that persistent puddle of water :P

One high pressure deck cleaning coming up... I doubt the puddles stick around under the business end of the Merlin 1D.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/06/2015 04:46 AM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6pJ9sBIQAE_f1K.jpg
Nice detail.
Note the guy in the Grey hoodie / spray jacket.

Source tweet please PhilW :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/06/2015 04:48 AM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6pNMGEIEAEKvyA.jpg
https://twitter.com/dillon_thoms/status/552338774542536705/photo/1
Just hoses and a tarp.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: mme on 01/06/2015 04:55 AM
...
Also since they are going to weld the stage on deck ... Question is to what? Hans mentioned tying it down though. Also I am not sure about how can they 'safe' the stage what does 'safe' means and can it be done autonomously? Is the LEO 23GT grabbing hold is 'saving' it ?
My understanding is that the metal "shoes" are pre-bent to fit over the feet.  They will weld the shoes directly to the deck.  When they get to port they'll cut the shoes off.  Simple, works anywhere on the deck, and is relatively quick.

In the pre-launch video this morning, Hans said that the stage automatically safes itself.  He also said that they could control all aspects of the stage from the support boot if required.  I imagine safing the stage is letting the LOX vent, maybe the N2 and helium (though the latter are inert, why vent them?  Maybe so the COPVs aren't under pressure?)  After that, close all the valves so nothing nasty leaks out, verify they are closed and maybe initiate some sort of mode that disables opening any valves without exiting said mode.  I'm guessing here, just repeating the sort of stuff I've heard other people speculate.

Hans said that crew will board the barge an hour or two after the stage lands.  I don't think safing has anything to do with securing it.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Lars-J on 01/06/2015 04:57 AM
...
Also since they are going to weld the stage on deck ... Question is to what? Hans mentioned tying it down though. Also I am not sure about how can they 'safe' the stage what does 'safe' means and can it be done autonomously? Is the LEO 23GT grabbing hold is 'saving' it ?
My understanding is that the metal "shoes" are pre-bent to fit over the feet.  They will weld the shoes directly to the deck.  When they get to port they'll cut the shoes off.  Simple, works anywhere on the deck, and is relatively quick.

Exactly. It doesn't have to be more complicated than that.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/06/2015 05:02 AM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6pNMGEIEAEKvyA.jpg
https://twitter.com/dillon_thoms/status/552338774542536705/photo/1
Just hoses and a tarp.

And tie downs laid in grid pattern? one is quite big in size.

...
Also since they are going to weld the stage on deck ... Question is to what? Hans mentioned tying it down though. Also I am not sure about how can they 'safe' the stage what does 'safe' means and can it be done autonomously? Is the LEO 23GT grabbing hold is 'saving' it ?
My understanding is that the metal "shoes" are pre-bent to fit over the feet.  They will weld the shoes directly to the deck.  When they get to port they'll cut the shoes off.  Simple, works anywhere on the deck, and is relatively quick.

In the pre-launch video this morning, Hans said that the stage automatically safes itself.  He also said that they could control all aspects of the stage from the support boot if required.  I imagine safing the stage is letting the LOX vent, maybe the N2 and helium (though the latter are inert, why vent them?  Maybe so the COPVs aren't under pressure?)  After that, close all the valves so nothing nasty leaks out, verify they are closed and maybe initiate some sort of mode that disables opening any valves without exiting said mode.  I'm guessing here, just repeating the sort of stuff I've heard other people speculate.

Hans said that crew will board the barge an hour or two after the stage lands.  I don't think safing has anything to do with securing it.

Yeah i agree on shoes being premade but welding them onto deck? May be 'tie downs' are just weld points?

EDIT: Any ideas on two black boxes attached to comm container?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: llanitedave on 01/06/2015 05:15 AM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6pNMGEIEAEKvyA.jpg (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6pNMGEIEAEKvyA.jpg)
https://twitter.com/dillon_thoms/status/552338774542536705/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/dillon_thoms/status/552338774542536705/photo/1)
Just hoses and a tarp.

And tie downs laid in grid pattern? one is quite big in size.

...
Also since they are going to weld the stage on deck ... Question is to what? Hans mentioned tying it down though. Also I am not sure about how can they 'safe' the stage what does 'safe' means and can it be done autonomously? Is the LEO 23GT grabbing hold is 'saving' it ?
My understanding is that the metal "shoes" are pre-bent to fit over the feet.  They will weld the shoes directly to the deck.  When they get to port they'll cut the shoes off.  Simple, works anywhere on the deck, and is relatively quick.

In the pre-launch video this morning, Hans said that the stage automatically safes itself.  He also said that they could control all aspects of the stage from the support boot if required.  I imagine safing the stage is letting the LOX vent, maybe the N2 and helium (though the latter are inert, why vent them?  Maybe so the COPVs aren't under pressure?)  After that, close all the valves so nothing nasty leaks out, verify they are closed and maybe initiate some sort of mode that disables opening any valves without exiting said mode.  I'm guessing here, just repeating the sort of stuff I've heard other people speculate.

Hans said that crew will board the barge an hour or two after the stage lands.  I don't think safing has anything to do with securing it.

Yeah i agree on shoes being premade but welding them onto deck? May be 'tie downs' are just weld points?

EDIT: Any ideas on two black boxes attached to comm container?

Why not?  Welding is strong, quick and easy, and reversible.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/06/2015 05:26 AM
No doubts about strength. But I doubt whole deck is weldable.. I think there are just weldable points on deck that we interpreted as tie downs earlier. And shoes get connected/welded to these points by a connector may be.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Robotbeat on 01/06/2015 05:28 AM
It's a steel deck almost certainly. Last time I checked, steel is weldable.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/06/2015 05:32 AM
It's a steel deck almost certainly. Last time I checked, steel is weldable.

What could be those bumps in gridded pattern? And yes I must agree steel is weldable for sure last time I checked too........ ::) 

and one more thing at cherrypicker gate surface is level indeed so it seems its naked barge surface.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Robotbeat on 01/06/2015 05:36 AM
It's a steel deck almost certainly. Last time I checked, steel is weldable.

What could be those bumps in gridded pattern?
Tiedowns?

The advantage of welding is they can weld anywhere, no matter how the rocket lands on the deck. Doesn't make any sense for there to need to be any special welding points on the deck when the deck is steel.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/06/2015 05:46 AM
It's a steel deck almost certainly. Last time I checked, steel is weldable.

What could be those bumps in gridded pattern?
Tiedowns?

The advantage of welding is they can weld anywhere, no matter how the rocket lands on the deck. Doesn't make any sense for there to need to be any special welding points on the deck when the deck is steel.

Back in thread in Eer's pics those bumps were spotted and I did try to visualize them how they were laid out on deck. And it was grid pattern. If we assume deck is all steel then I guess tie downs are for redundancy. Weld is obviously great and simplicity of this weldable shoes method is lovely.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: ChrisWilson68 on 01/06/2015 05:50 AM
First tie down, because it's fast, then weld, to make it even more stable.  Seems plausible to me.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: AJW on 01/06/2015 05:54 AM
Welding in the vicinity of a tank holding residual RP-1 near valves that just went through a mach 10 re-entry seems far riskier than tie-downs that have been used for decades on aircraft carriers.  Aircraft tie-downs are quick to install, reliable, and easily disengaged.  Carrier decks have padeyes every 3-5 feet so landing location should not be the issue, but the scale of the first stage may make them impractical.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/06/2015 05:58 AM
Welding in the vicinity of a tank holding residual RP-1 near valves that just went through a mach 10 re-entry seems far riskier than tie-downs that have been used for decades on aircraft carriers.  Aircraft tie-downs are quick to install, reliable, and easily disengaged.  Carrier decks have padeyes every 3-5 feet so landing location should not be the issue, but the scale of the first stage may make them impractical.

Imagine a scenario where you have a partially disintegrated booster on deck that needs securing and sweet RP1 spill. And would it be a lightning magnet or something?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Robotbeat on 01/06/2015 06:00 AM
Welding in the vicinity of a tank holding residual RP-1 near valves that just went through a mach 10 re-entry seems far riskier than tie-downs that have been used for decades on aircraft carriers.  Aircraft tie-downs are quick to install, reliable, and easily disengaged.  Carrier decks have padeyes every 3-5 feet so landing location should not be the issue, but the scale of the first stage may make them impractical.
Too bad, they're going to weld.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: CameronD on 01/06/2015 06:03 AM
Welding in the vicinity of a tank holding residual RP-1 near valves that just went through a mach 10 re-entry seems far riskier than tie-downs that have been used for decades on aircraft carriers.  Aircraft tie-downs are quick to install, reliable, and easily disengaged.  Carrier decks have padeyes every 3-5 feet so landing location should not be the issue, but the scale of the first stage may make them impractical.

1. Welding won't be all that risky - particularly at a fair distance from the body of the stage.  This is open ocean air and you can be sure they'll go around the rocket with a portable gas monitor in any case before they start up the welder.

2. I'd imagine that, having actually landed the stage on the deck, in one piece, with no damage to anyone or anything, they'd be extremely happy to weld the stage down hard - given that the alternative means there's nothing to weld at all... ::)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/06/2015 06:10 AM
Welding in the vicinity of a tank holding residual RP-1 near valves that just went through a mach 10 re-entry seems far riskier than tie-downs that have been used for decades on aircraft carriers.  Aircraft tie-downs are quick to install, reliable, and easily disengaged.  Carrier decks have padeyes every 3-5 feet so landing location should not be the issue, but the scale of the first stage may make them impractical.
Too bad, they're going to weld.

That is not even being questioned here...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: QuantumG on 01/06/2015 06:17 AM
Imagine a scenario where you have a partially disintegrated booster on deck that needs securing and sweet RP1 spill. And would it be a lightning magnet or something?

Just hose it down.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/06/2015 06:22 AM
Imagine a scenario where you have a partially disintegrated booster on deck that needs securing and sweet RP1 spill. And would it be a lightning magnet or something?

Just hose it down.
Yup.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/06/2015 06:27 AM
Lovely picture of port and ASDS

https://twitter.com/Jill_Yuricich/status/551445208815386624/photo/1
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: QuantumG on 01/06/2015 06:31 AM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6ph-aTCYAA9UNH.png:large

Don't know how accurate this is...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/06/2015 06:41 AM
Imagine a scenario where you have a partially disintegrated booster on deck that needs securing and sweet RP1 spill. And would it be a lightning magnet or something?

Just hose it down.

Fumes could be problem? Shoes on legs seems a bit too specific a solution not much flexibility in case something unforeseen happens.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: llanitedave on 01/06/2015 06:50 AM
Fumes won't be a problem in the case of a successful landing.  If the stage crashes on the barge, there won't be any welding, but a lot of hosing.  Welding the bracket shoes over the tips of the legs will be easier, quicker, and safer than most of the kinds of welding I've seen on drill rigs all my life.  Drill rigs are greasy, leaky things powered by diesel fuel and generally sprayed with hydraulic fluid.  But drillers weld casing pipe, and cut it, and build brackets, and cut them, all the time.  They keep their liquid volatiles inside metal cans, and put a screen around the item they're welding to keep sparks from flying everywhere.

It's quick, easy, strong, and second-for-second probably safer than trying to scoot the legs around or handle stiff wet ropes or wires.  And this way the structure remains in a non-tensioned state, and is less likely to be damaged.

It's nothing to be concerned about.  Really.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Jdeshetler on 01/06/2015 07:15 AM
1. Welding won't be all that risky - particularly at a fair distance from the body of the stage.  This is open ocean air and you can be sure they'll go around the rocket with a portable gas monitor in any case before they start up the welder.

2. I'd imagine that, having actually landed the stage on the deck, in one piece, with no damage to anyone or anything, they'd be extremely happy to weld the stage down hard - given that the alternative means there's nothing to weld at all... ::)

http://www.millerwelds.com/products/enginedriven/product.php?model=M00495
If the blue generator in the photo (red circle) is the same series or class as the link above then this welding generator can support two operators at the same time. (Done some heavy welding on several truck projects.)

The support crew would need to quickly removed the paints around the carbon leg's pads until the metal surface is bare and clean before the oversize steel shoes is dropped over.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: mme on 01/06/2015 07:24 AM
Welding in the vicinity of a tank holding residual RP-1 near valves that just went through a mach 10 re-entry ...
They aren't in close proximity to the RP-1 tanks, the legs are quite long and the tanks are above the engines.  In the pre-launch video Hans said that the crew would board an hour or two after the stage lands.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/06/2015 07:26 AM
1. Welding won't be all that risky - particularly at a fair distance from the body of the stage.  This is open ocean air and you can be sure they'll go around the rocket with a portable gas monitor in any case before they start up the welder.

2. I'd imagine that, having actually landed the stage on the deck, in one piece, with no damage to anyone or anything, they'd be extremely happy to weld the stage down hard - given that the alternative means there's nothing to weld at all... ::)

http://www.millerwelds.com/products/enginedriven/product.php?model=M00495
If the blue generator in the photo (red circle) is the same series or class as the link above then this welding generator can support two operators at the same time. (Done some heavy welding on several truck projects.)

The support crew would need to quickly removed the paints around the carbon leg's pads until the metal surface is bare and clean before the oversize steel shoes is dropped over.
Looks like there are 2 Blue Welders. One at each end / opposite corners of the ASDS.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/06/2015 08:11 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ohnnl4nOcGU
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: douglas100 on 01/06/2015 09:15 AM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6ph-aTCYAA9UNH.png:large

Don't know how accurate this is...

Nice diagram,  but I think it was reported somewhere that the grid fins deploy shortly after staging, well before entry.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cartman on 01/06/2015 09:34 AM
No positions have been received from the ships for over 9 hours now, so i guess they have stopped transmitting... Closest ships to the landing area are over 50 miles away.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: IRobot on 01/06/2015 09:58 AM
Wave height seems to be under 2 meters (1.5m reported), at least in what seems to be the closest buoy.

http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/station_page.php?station=41010&unit=M&tz=STN

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/06/2015 10:08 AM
Even better, wind speed is only 4 m/s and dropping.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: OxCartMark on 01/06/2015 10:24 AM
Looks like there are 2 Blue Welders. One at each end / opposite corners of the ASDS.

Don't confuse the large blue hydraulic power units for the Thrustmasters with the Miller welders.  The Thrustmaster HPUs are larger, at each corner, and have large horizontal mufflers.  The welders are hmm, 3-1/2 feet high and have an exhaust pipe coming vertically out of the top with a bend at the end, no muffler visible.  Both shades of blue are near identical.  From what we saw at the port we know of three Miller welders (could be more).  One of them seems to be semi-permanently connected to one of the shipping containers with a conduit (to provide electrical power to SpaceX's equipment around the barge?) and the other two were seen to be loose (at that time at least).

Mark
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: whitelancer64 on 01/06/2015 10:38 AM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6ph-aTCYAA9UNH.png:large

Don't know how accurate this is...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6ph-aTCYAA9UNH.png:large

Don't know how accurate this is...

Nice diagram,  but I think it was reported somewhere that the grid fins deploy shortly after staging, well before entry.

I am pretty sure Elon Musk just said that in the reddit I Am A, that the grid fins deploy at about the 5 minute mark, based on that, it is after the time the first stage is at apogee, but before the reentry burn, I think.

Otherwise quite accurate, and was correct before that information came out. I've been keeping my eye out for something like this, what's the source?

*edit* found it on http://www.nbcnews.com/science/space/spacex-does-reality-check-its-falcon-9-rocket-landing-plan-n270246 (http://www.nbcnews.com/science/space/spacex-does-reality-check-its-falcon-9-rocket-landing-plan-n270246) and the original source is here: http://justatinker.com/Future/ (http://justatinker.com/Future/)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Llian Rhydderch on 01/06/2015 10:40 AM
The launch for 6 January has been scrubbed.  An actuator in the second stage thrust vector control assembly apparently had a drift problem.  Launch rescheduled for Friday, 9 Jan.

So let the ASDS speculation begin:  what will the ASDS do in the meantime?  and will the GoQuest and Elsbeth III crews host a tailgate party on the barge during the downtime?  ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: OxCartMark on 01/06/2015 10:46 AM
Ladies and gentlemen, we have some significant new information.  We've often discussed how it would be handled if weather was good for launch but poor in the landing area, and what defined unlandable weather in the LZ.  I think the consensus opinion (or maybe its just my opinion after hearing everyone else's opinion) has been that bad weather in the landing zone was a risk that SpaceX bore and that it would be likely that they'd need to launch a customer's freight even if there was no chance of recovery.  Not so, at least on this NASA launch.  SpaceX seems to have gotten agreement to not launch if waves are beyond 6 feet in the LZ.  Here is a screen grab posted for other reasons by Steve Pietrobon which shows that:



Weather is looking good. 21 C. 20% chance of violation for 9 January.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36492.15

Mark
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Jim on 01/06/2015 10:55 AM
Ladies and gentlemen, we have some significant new information.  We've often discussed how it would be handled if weather was good for launch but poor in the landing area, and what defined unlandable weather in the LZ.  I think the consensus opinion (or maybe its just my opinion after hearing everyone else's opinion) has been that bad weather in the landing zone was a risk that SpaceX bore and that it would be likely that they'd need to launch a customer's freight even if there was no chance of recovery.  Not so, at least on this NASA launch.  SpaceX seems to have gotten agreement to not launch if waves are beyond 6 feet in the LZ.  Here is a screen grab posted for other reasons by Steve Pietrobon which shows that:


Not necessarily  true.  The range just reports the conditions for customer rules.  SpaceX can make still make a launch decision and ignore those conditions.  So this is not proof of a NASA buy in.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: OxCartMark on 01/06/2015 11:02 AM
Not necessarily  true.  The range just reports the conditions for customer rules.  SpaceX can make still make a launch decision and ignore those conditions.  So this is not proof of a NASA buy in.

Huh?  Not sure how what you said differs from what I said other than I think you wanted to find some narrow perspective from which to view what I said that would allow you to disagree.

Mark
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/06/2015 11:08 AM
looked like someone was monitoring the platform at sea ( secondary control room, last row)
wasn't quick enough to take a screencap

Did any one else catch that? Other people also mentioned the same..
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Mapperuo on 01/06/2015 11:17 AM
looked like someone was monitoring the platform at sea ( secondary control room, last row)
wasn't quick enough to take a screencap

Did any one else catch that? Other people also mentioned the same..

Had a flick through, Attached what they may be referring to. The picture didn't move, it's a photo. Looks like a desktop to me. :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/06/2015 11:38 AM
looked like someone was monitoring the platform at sea ( secondary control room, last row)
wasn't quick enough to take a screencap

Did any one else catch that? Other people also mentioned the same..

Had a flick through, Attached what they may be referring to. The picture didn't move, it's a photo. Looks like a desktop to me. :)

Thanks :) It can't be live cam as it was dark at that moment too  :P.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: OxCartMark on 01/06/2015 11:53 AM
Forgive me Lar for I am about to sin.

Repaint "MARmac" to be "MARS".  Land on it.  Goal to land on Mars by 2025 complete.

Any questions?

Mark
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: eriblo on 01/06/2015 11:57 AM
Not necessarily  true.  The range just reports the conditions for customer rules.  SpaceX can make still make a launch decision and ignore those conditions.  So this is not proof of a NASA buy in.

Huh?  Not sure how what you said differs from what I said other than I think you wanted to find some narrow perspective from which to view what I said that would allow you to disagree.

Mark

You stated that "SpaceX seems to have gotten agreement [with NASA] to not launch if waves are beyond 6 feet in the LZ" based on the GO/NO GO criteria shown including that item. I don't really see how Jim's comment is hard to understand or in any way looking for a detail to fight over...

Consider that they had exactly the same criteria for both CRS-4 and CRS-3 previously and AFAIK launched CRS-3 with exactly this item marked EXCEEDED (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=34502.msg1184684#msg1184684) (yellow) instead of  NO GO (red).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: OxCartMark on 01/06/2015 12:03 PM
And you see that line as being significant??  What little does it have to do with the subject of the post other than as a side comment?  Silly.

Mark
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Jim on 01/06/2015 12:17 PM
Not necessarily  true.  The range just reports the conditions for customer rules.  SpaceX can make still make a launch decision and ignore those conditions.  So this is not proof of a NASA buy in.

Huh?  Not sure how what you said differs from what I said other than I think you wanted to find some narrow perspective from which to view what I said that would allow you to disagree.


The point is that you said it shows that NASA has bought into it and I am saying that is not the case
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: eriblo on 01/06/2015 12:18 PM
And you see that line as being significant??  What little does it have to do with the subject of the post other than as a side comment?  Silly.

Mark
If that was a response to me I must confess to being a little confused as I thought that line was the whole point of this post at the beginning of the discussion:

Ladies and gentlemen, we have some significant new information.  We've often discussed how it would be handled if weather was good for launch but poor in the landing area, and what defined unlandable weather in the LZ.  I think the consensus opinion (or maybe its just my opinion after hearing everyone else's opinion) has been that bad weather in the landing zone was a risk that SpaceX bore and that it would be likely that they'd need to launch a customer's freight even if there was no chance of recovery.  Not so, at least on this NASA launch. SpaceX seems to have gotten agreement to not launch if waves are beyond 6 feet in the LZ.  Here is a screen grab posted for other reasons by Steve Pietrobon which shows that:

Weather is looking good. 21 C. 20% chance of violation for 9 January.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36492.15

Mark

Bold added by me to show the line in question (?). Could you please bring me up to date as to what we are talking about  ???
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: ugordan on 01/06/2015 12:40 PM
Not necessarily  true.  The range just reports the conditions for customer rules.  SpaceX can make still make a launch decision and ignore those conditions.  So this is not proof of a NASA buy in.

Huh?  Not sure how what you said differs from what I said other than I think you wanted to find some narrow perspective from which to view what I said that would allow you to disagree.


The point is that you said it shows that NASA has bought into it and I am saying that is not the case

And to add to what Jim is saying, the same table was shown for (I think) CRS-3, where the wave height *did* exceed the limit, it was NO GO,  but it was colored yellow, not red and SpaceX still launched. This screenshot doesn't prove this is a hard LCC, it obviously doesn't affect the primary mission which is the one of real importance as emphasized by Hans Koenigsman several times.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: MP99 on 01/06/2015 12:48 PM


Not necessarily  true.  The range just reports the conditions for customer rules.  SpaceX can make still make a launch decision and ignore those conditions.  So this is not proof of a NASA buy in.

Huh?  Not sure how what you said differs from what I said other than I think you wanted to find some narrow perspective from which to view what I said that would allow you to disagree.

Mark

It can be listed as a criterion, but your contention not be true.

Cheers, Martin
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: OxCartMark on 01/06/2015 01:08 PM
I find the lawyerly nitpicking of this to be very revealing.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Mader Levap on 01/06/2015 01:47 PM
bad weather in the landing zone was a risk that SpaceX bore and that it would be likely that they'd need to launch a customer's freight even if there was no chance of recovery.  Not so, at least on this NASA launch.  SpaceX seems to have gotten agreement to not launch if waves are beyond 6 feet in the LZ.
Nope. They still launched rockets even when this criteria was NO GO/EXCEED (it is NOT first time this row in table was present). No one will hold up launch for that reason. If landing is NO GO, they launch anyway and stage will be disposed to not endanger barge. Or perform practice "landing" somewhere far away from barge.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: ugordan on 01/06/2015 02:04 PM
I find the lawyerly nitpicking of this to be very revealing.

Here, knock yourself out.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=34502.msg1184684#msg1184684
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Jim on 01/06/2015 02:09 PM
I find the lawyerly nitpicking of this to be very revealing.

So is seeing little painted men on rockets
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cscott on 01/06/2015 02:13 PM
I find the lawyerly nitpicking of this to be very revealing.
So is seeing little painted men on rockets
Ob. link: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=35853.msg1311160#msg1311160

But let's not pick on Mark.  He was right on the money with the welders (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36326.msg1310701#msg1310701), and has provided the first credible plan for a 2015 Mars landing (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36326.msg1311116#msg1311116). ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/06/2015 02:26 PM
So let the ASDS speculation begin:  what will the ASDS do in the meantime?  and will the GoQuest and Elsbeth III crews host a tailgate party on the barge during the downtime?  ;D

Not enougn time to head into port and get back on station by Friday morning. So they hold position and try to conserve fuel. Maybe the tug hooks back onto ASDS so the barge doesn't have to burn 3 days worth of stationkeeping fuel.

Meanwhile, a street hockey game breaks out on deck.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: llanitedave on 01/06/2015 02:51 PM
I find the lawyerly nitpicking of this to be very revealing.

Yeah, reality is so unappreciative of your "significant information", isn't it?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: robertross on 01/06/2015 02:55 PM
So let the ASDS speculation begin:  what will the ASDS do in the meantime?  and will the GoQuest and Elsbeth III crews host a tailgate party on the barge during the downtime?  ;D

Not enougn time to head into port and get back on station by Friday morning. So they hold position and try to conserve fuel. Maybe the tug hooks back onto ASDS so the barge doesn't have to burn 3 days worth of stationkeeping fuel.

Meanwhile, a street hockey game breaks out on deck.

I wonder if they could position new fuel containers on deck? (likely using a helicopter)
It would likely require calm seas however.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/06/2015 02:59 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6ph-aTCYAA9UNH.png:large

Don't know how accurate this is...
Here is the timed schedule.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: rpapo on 01/06/2015 03:12 PM
Whoever did that schedule got some of the terminology different.  What we tend to call the reentry burn is here called the landing burn.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Llian Rhydderch on 01/06/2015 03:16 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6ph-aTCYAA9UNH.png:large

Don't know how accurate this is...
Here is the timed schedule.

Phil, what was the source for that timing table?  I don't see it at the link QuantumG left.

Was it SpaceX info?  Or info assimilated and published by someone else?  The latter might still be correct depending on their sources, but it will figure into the weight we attach to the numbers.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Doesitfloat on 01/06/2015 03:37 PM
So let the ASDS speculation begin:  what will the ASDS do in the meantime?  and will the GoQuest and Elsbeth III crews host a tailgate party on the barge during the downtime?  ;D

Not enougn time to head into port and get back on station by Friday morning. So they hold position and try to conserve fuel. Maybe the tug hooks back onto ASDS so the barge doesn't have to burn 3 days worth of stationkeeping fuel.




Meanwhile, a street hockey game breaks out on deck.

I wonder if they could position new fuel containers on deck? (likely using a helicopter)
It would likely require calm seas however.

You want to turn lots of fuel into smoke.
Tie the tug to the barge. Float... Call upon King Neptune for entertainment.
On Thursday, Fire up the tug and drive to landing location.

Much less fuel than station keeping for 3 days.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/06/2015 05:57 PM
bad weather in the landing zone was a risk that SpaceX bore and that it would be likely that they'd need to launch a customer's freight even if there was no chance of recovery.  Not so, at least on this NASA launch.  SpaceX seems to have gotten agreement to not launch if waves are beyond 6 feet in the LZ.
Nope. They still launched rockets even when this criteria was NO GO/EXCEED (it is NOT first time this row in table was present). No one will hold up launch for that reason. If landing is NO GO, they launch anyway and stage will be disposed to not endanger barge. Or perform practice "landing" somewhere far away from barge.

Well we don't know that either.  In previous flight they launches with high waves, but there was no barge, so the stage would have been dipped anyway. Maybe THAT is why they ignored the rule.  But we do know that a rule for wave height at the LZ was set up.

So it remains to be seen, it is still an open question.  I'm leaning towards thinking that if they put the rule up, then there's a reason they did so.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Jim on 01/06/2015 06:11 PM

So it remains to be seen, it is still an open question.  I'm leaning towards thinking that if they put the rule up, then there's a reason they did so.

No, it isn't an open question.  Spacex isn't going to affect the ISS schedule by delaying when the launch weather is good and the sea state is bad.   There is a whole lot of impacts in rescheduling a visiting vehicle.  Spacex is on contract to deliver cargo to the ISS.  Stage recovery is secondary.

The likely reason that this "new" rule is there, is to get the range use to accessing and reporting it.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/06/2015 06:35 PM

So it remains to be seen, it is still an open question.  I'm leaning towards thinking that if they put the rule up, then there's a reason they did so.

No, it isn't an open question.  Spacex isn't going to affect the ISS schedule by delaying when the launch weather is good and the sea state is bad.   There is a whole lot of impacts in rescheduling a visiting vehicle.  Spacex is on contract to deliver cargo to the ISS.  Stage recovery is secondary.

The likely reason that this "new" rule is there, is to get the range use to accessing and reporting it.

I understand the impact of a launch delay, but also the impact of losing a reusable stage, and so it is up to SpaceX to negotiate that with each customer, whether NASA or commercial.

This is very much like "will NASA (or customers) revolt at SpaceX for putting legs and other reusability hardware on their launches".  You were all up in arms about it, but it ended up that logic prevailed, and reasonable parties arrived at reasonable understandings.

If delays were an otherwise unheard of phenomena, then maybe. But since delays are common part of scheduling anyway, I can see it going both ways.

Here's another consideration: Are there any count-down tests that have to do with reusability hardware?  Suppose there's an under-pressure detected in a reservoir that services the legs?  Or maybe an over-current detected in a circuit that has to do with re-ignition.  Will the count-down be aborted?  Is that in any of the contracts?

It's a circumstance that will happen sooner or later, and then we'll see how it plays out.  I'd like to think that it's in the contracts, or at least has been discussed and agreed upon.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Jim on 01/06/2015 06:58 PM

 but also the impact of losing a reusable stage,

Those don't exist at this time and so there is no loss.  Even if it is recovered it is not a reusable stage. 

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Jim on 01/06/2015 07:01 PM

This is very much like "will NASA (or customers) revolt at SpaceX for putting legs and other reusability hardware on their launches".  You were all up in arms about it, but it ended up that logic prevailed, and reasonable parties arrived at reasonable understandings.


That still is applicable.  Logic is prevailing and some missions won't have legs even if there is excess performance.  CRS is not a NASA launch.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/06/2015 07:07 PM

 but also the impact of losing a reusable stage,

Those don't exist at this time and so there is no loss.  Even if it is recovered it is not a reusable stage.

That's nit-picking. And to say "there is no loss" when describing the first ever propulsively recovered stage, which is a gateway to reusability, is being willfully ignorant.

So instead, "the loss of a stage that could have been recovered", and thus has value for SpaceX (And by proxy, to NASA as well, and to customers, since everyone wants reuse to work.)

A delay to ISS scheduling is not the end of the world, it is simply an inconvenience for NASA and a whole bunch of other people.  It happens anyway due to many reasons. OTOH, a loss of a stage that contains valuable data is a bummer for SpaceX.  And also not the end of the world, since there will be others.

So both parties can sit around the table and arrive at some understanding, and if cooler heads prevail, then an agreement will be reached that does not starve ISS for trivial reasons, but also does not lose a stage over a scheduling inconvenience that can occur anyway.

Same as has happened before with carrying reusability hardware on F9.1

I hope this is what happened on this topic as well.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: MP99 on 01/06/2015 07:09 PM

So it remains to be seen, it is still an open question.  I'm leaning towards thinking that if they put the rule up, then there's a reason they did so.

No, it isn't an open question.  Spacex isn't going to affect the ISS schedule by delaying when the launch weather is good and the sea state is bad.   There is a whole lot of impacts in rescheduling a visiting vehicle.  Spacex is on contract to deliver cargo to the ISS.  Stage recovery is secondary.

The likely reason that this "new" rule is there, is to get the range use to accessing and reporting it.

I understand the impact of a launch delay, but also the impact of losing a reusable stage, and so it is up to SpaceX to negotiate that with each customer, whether NASA or commercial.

If SpaceX negotiates a lower price for a launch in return for recovering the hardware, then it would be reasonable to delay if the sea state makes recovery impossible.

If SpaceX are charging full price (IE expendable) rates for the launch, then it would be perfectly reasonable for the customer to request / insist that this not delay an otherwise viable launch.

cheers, Martin
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Jim on 01/06/2015 07:15 PM

A delay to ISS scheduling is not the end of the world, it is simply an inconvenience for NASA and a whole bunch of other people.  It happens anyway due to many reasons. OTOH, a loss of a stage that contains valuable data is a bummer for SpaceX.


It is not an inconvenience, it is a large cost to NASA and its partners and if it can be avoided it will.   Just because a delay "can" happen doesn't mean it should.  Spacex can test its stages on its own dime and not wasting NASA's.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/06/2015 07:17 PM

So it remains to be seen, it is still an open question.  I'm leaning towards thinking that if they put the rule up, then there's a reason they did so.

No, it isn't an open question.  Spacex isn't going to affect the ISS schedule by delaying when the launch weather is good and the sea state is bad.   There is a whole lot of impacts in rescheduling a visiting vehicle.  Spacex is on contract to deliver cargo to the ISS.  Stage recovery is secondary.

The likely reason that this "new" rule is there, is to get the range use to accessing and reporting it.

I understand the impact of a launch delay, but also the impact of losing a reusable stage, and so it is up to SpaceX to negotiate that with each customer, whether NASA or commercial.

If SpaceX negotiates a lower price for a launch in return for recovering the hardware, then it would be reasonable to delay if the sea state makes recovery impossible.

If SpaceX are charging full price (IE expendable) rates for the launch, then it would be perfectly reasonable for the customer to request / insist that this not delay an otherwise viable launch.

cheers, Martin

Yup, and there are also some shades of gray in between... 

There are often other things that can be put on the table, other services, extra this and extra that.  If there's good will, there's a way to resolve this.  If the sides get barricaded, then there's plenty other things they can fight over...

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Lar on 01/06/2015 07:19 PM
um, stay on topic guys...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/06/2015 07:38 PM

But it seems that it's all been resolved, and NASA money was not really wasted.


Jason-3 has been delayed again and none of the delays are due to the spacecraft.

Like I said, we're OT for ASDS.   Delays occur with all providers, irrespective of legs or not.   (EDIT: Sorry Lar, cross-posted.  I'm done...)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Semmel on 01/06/2015 07:49 PM
Phil, what was the source for that timing table?  I don't see it at the link QuantumG left.

Looks like it came from Spaceflight101.com

http://www.spaceflight101.com/dragon-spx-5-mission-updates.html

Scroll down significantly.

Cheers,
Semmel
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: yg1968 on 01/06/2015 07:56 PM

A delay to ISS scheduling is not the end of the world, it is simply an inconvenience for NASA and a whole bunch of other people.  It happens anyway due to many reasons. OTOH, a loss of a stage that contains valuable data is a bummer for SpaceX.


It is not an inconvenience, it is a large cost to NASA and its partners and if it can be avoided it will.   Just because a delay "can" happen doesn't mean it should.  Spacex can test its stages on its own dime and not wasting NASA's.

I don't think that it will be done for this flight but NASA could negotiate something in exchange for their trouble (extra data that is useful to them, improvements to cargo Dragon, etc.).

But given the fact that SpaceX's ultimate goal is a return to the launch site, they may not be willing to barter much in exchange.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: MTom on 01/06/2015 08:50 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6pNMGEIEAEKvyA.jpg
https://twitter.com/dillon_thoms/status/552338774542536705/photo/1
Just hoses and a tarp.

This picture shows holes below the yellow I-Beams.
This is against the theory flooding the deck.

What is to see: this is a heavy construction. Rope could tied on it (see the right side).

The surface of the deck is smooth and pure metal. Sticking friction is low.

My opinion gets stronger: this is against a slipping rocket - of course in a case of medium wawes causing some slowly slippage of the core (if the thrusters cannot compensate enough).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: MTom on 01/06/2015 08:51 PM
See this video about a more extreme situation to explain what I mentioned above.
Interesting from 0:20.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38jDQkkaxT8
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: CameronD on 01/07/2015 12:01 AM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6pNMGEIEAEKvyA.jpg
https://twitter.com/dillon_thoms/status/552338774542536705/photo/1
Just hoses and a tarp.

This picture shows holes below the yellow I-Beams.
This is against the theory flooding the deck.

What is to see: this is a heavy construction. Rope could tied on it (see the right side).

The surface of the deck is smooth and pure metal. Sticking friction is low.

My opinion gets stronger: this is against a slipping rocket - of course in a case of medium wawes causing some slowly slippage of the core (if the thrusters cannot compensate enough).

1. Flooding the deck would be a bad idea for several reasons... but, yes, the presence of those scuppers certainly rules it out.

2. It doesn't seem like slippage is an issue on their radar.  From info posted in other threads, it appears SpaceX have set a range 'go/no go' limit of 6ft on wave height for landing (ie. virtually flat calm for a barge of this size).  If the sea is rougher than this, presumably they'll ditch (sorry, "land") in the ocean nearby.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cartman on 01/07/2015 12:15 AM
I believe that in the pre launch conference they were positive that they could handle much larger waves than 6ft, but i dont have an exact quote now.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: CameronD on 01/07/2015 12:25 AM
I believe that in the pre launch conference they were positive that they could handle much larger waves than 6ft, but i dont have an exact quote now.

Just because they're positive they can, doesn't mean they will in practice.  You need to set the limits somewhere.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: robertross on 01/07/2015 12:50 AM
I believe that in the pre launch conference they were positive that they could handle much larger waves than 6ft, but i dont have an exact quote now.

Just because they're positive they can, doesn't mean they will in practice.  You need to set the limits somewhere.

Based on Center of Gravity of the landed stage, they would have figured that out. Welding keepers to the deck surface to secure the stage's feet greatly aids in keeping it stable.

The only difference is between landing and transport. Landing is much more critical, as you could 'theoretically' have the stage topple over if one leg touches as the deck surface pitches up in a hurry. or it could skid across the deck surface.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Darga on 01/07/2015 01:15 AM
Go Quest is coming home according to the latest vesselfinder info. Elsbeth III info has not been updated.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cartman on 01/07/2015 01:21 AM
Its moving at 8kts so i dont think they have the ASDS with them. It is probable that Elsbeth III is staying with the ASDS around the landing zone.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/07/2015 03:01 AM
Its moving at 8kts so i dont think they have the ASDS with them. It is probable that Elsbeth III is staying with the ASDS around the landing zone.
Latest track suggests ElsBeth3 is also on her way to port.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: dorkmo on 01/07/2015 03:37 AM
interesting that they are separated and traveling at different speeds. perhaps Elsbeth went to tug asds and GO went on to shore without them?

did anyone tabulate the travel time from port to landing site? maybe like a day and a half? seems like theyll be cutting it close if all theyre doing is going in to refuel or something and then turning back around.

possible theyve been communicated that the second stage problem will take a while to diagnose a fix?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: CameronD on 01/07/2015 04:28 AM
interesting that they are separated and traveling at different speeds. perhaps elsbeth went to go tug and go just went on without them?

did anyone tabulate the travel time from port to landing site? maybe like a day and a half? seems like theyll be cutting it close if all theyre doing is going in to refuel or something and then turning back around.

possible theyve been communicated that the second stage problem will take a while to diagnose a fix?

Whatever they're up to, it would make a lot of sense to leave the ASDS out there.  Maybe the Elsbeth III hung around a bit just to make sure it was ok?

I guess we'll know when they get back to port.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Lar on 01/07/2015 01:34 PM
Attention on deck! This is your moderator speaking!

We're drifting. Engage thrusters and return to the topic please. Further off-topic posts may be hulled and sunk without a trace, all hands lost.

As you were, that is all.

(Awesome topic for discussion, just not here.)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/07/2015 02:33 PM
Vesselfinder says the Elsbeth III was about 110 km offshore at 9:17 UTC. At around 5 knots, that's about a 12 hour trip back to port, arriving around 4:00-4:30 ET this afternoon.

Fascination as at sea, but the APM terminal webcam should be able to catch the arrival and see whether or not the ASDS is in tow, if anyone cares to watch at that time:

http://dataservices.namapmterminals.com/apmt/cameraimage.aspx?address=http://10.1.197.153/axis-cgi/jpg/image.cgi?resolution=352x288
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Mongo62 on 01/07/2015 02:34 PM
Go Quest is coming home according to the latest vesselfinder info. Elsbeth III info has not been updated.

Latest track suggests ElsBeth3 is also on her way to port.

What is the expected sea state at the planned ASDS location on Friday?

Is it possible that SpaceX has decided not to make the landing attempt due to high seas, and instead wait for a later launch for the first try?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/07/2015 02:41 PM
Weather doesn't look too bad. Winds 15 kts, waves 6-8 feet.

http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/data/Forecasts/FZNT23.KNHC.html
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: yg1968 on 01/07/2015 02:47 PM
Weather doesn't look too bad. Winds 15 kts, waves 6-8 feet.

http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/data/Forecasts/FZNT23.KNHC.html

Isn't 6 to 8 feet over the limit of 6 feet?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Comga on 01/07/2015 02:59 PM
Weather doesn't look too bad. Winds 15 kts, waves 6-8 feet.

http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/data/Forecasts/FZNT23.KNHC.html (http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/data/Forecasts/FZNT23.KNHC.html)

Isn't 6 to 8 feet over the limit of 6 feet?

It's not known to be a "limit".  It is a criterion.  What SpaceX does with that information, should the sea state exceed that level, is not known.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/07/2015 03:00 PM
Weather doesn't look too bad. Winds 15 kts, waves 6-8 feet.

http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/data/Forecasts/FZNT23.KNHC.html

Isn't 6 to 8 feet over the limit of 6 feet?

Do we know what the real "limit" is? IIRC someone reported during the last scrub that they saw on the video feed that one of the SpaceX monitor screens showed that reported wave height was exceeding the "limit." But they were still going to attempt a barge landing anyway.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Jim on 01/07/2015 03:18 PM

Is it possible that SpaceX has decided not to make the landing attempt due to high seas, and instead wait for a later launch for the first try?

The ISS is waiting for supplies.   The next spacecraft is onsite waiting for launch.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: ugordan on 01/07/2015 03:21 PM
Is it possible that SpaceX has decided not to make the landing attempt due to high seas, and instead wait for a later launch for the first try?

Or the launch got pushed back even more, past Friday...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/07/2015 03:24 PM
Is it possible that SpaceX has decided not to make the landing attempt due to high seas, and instead wait for a later launch for the first try?

Or the launch got pushed back even more, past Friday...

That gets my vote. TVC problem is non-trivial. May need to de-integrate in order to access the actuator?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Comga on 01/07/2015 03:41 PM
Is it possible that SpaceX has decided not to make the landing attempt due to high seas, and instead wait for a later launch for the first try?

Or the launch got pushed back even more, past Friday...

That gets my vote. TVC problem is non-trivial. May need to de-integrate in order to access the actuator?

This is all wild speculation based on the lack of information.
Many, many things are possible  The launch is NET Friday, not "Friday". Many things "may need to be" done.   
edit: The significance and relevance of these questions to the ASDS is getting thinner and thinner.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cscott on 01/07/2015 03:44 PM
Well, one way or another we should find out tomorrow-ish (before 5pm Thursday?)  if the sailors just came home to sleep in a real bed tonight and are headed back out in the morning.

I wouldn't be terribly surprised if so -- it not uncommon to run into a little engine trouble or discover something you forgot that a quick hour in port and run to the marine supply store can fix.  Since there's a new backup launch date of Jan 10, it may also be that they decided to get a few more provisions so they can extend their stay if Jan 9 turns out to be a scrub/delay as well.

WRT sea state, the waves were forecast to be 5-14 feet on Tuesday's launch attempt IIRC (watch the prelaunch briefing if you want to know the exact numbers) and they were still going to attempt a landing.  Hans was very confident: "it's a big ship".

Remember that that 6' wave "limit" has been there since CRS-3, so it's certainly not directly related to the ASDS capabilities.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/07/2015 03:57 PM
Remember that that 6' wave "limit" has been there since CRS-3, so it's certainly not directly related to the ASDS capabilities.

It's possible that the 6' "limit" was originally based on the expected difficulty of safely grappling a floating stage with a recovery vessel in heavy seas.

Now that the barge has entered the picture, the issue becomes how to safely approach/board/tie up to the ASDS from the tug in heavy seas.

That may be the limiting factor in barge operations at sea, rather than the ability of the barge itself to handle a landing in heavy seas.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: MTom on 01/07/2015 04:50 PM

Is it possible that SpaceX has decided not to make the landing attempt due to high seas, and instead wait for a later launch for the first try?

The ISS is waiting for supplies.   The next spacecraft is onsite waiting for launch.

He has spoken about launching on Friday without landing attempt. Not about delaying the launch.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: oiorionsbelt on 01/07/2015 05:23 PM
From Florida Today.

Quote
SpaceX is evaluating whether to replace a rocket component responsible for scrubbing Tuesday morning's attempt to launch an International Space Station resupply mission from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station.
It was not clear how the launch schedule might be impacted if the company decides to replace a faulty actuator in the system that controls steering of the rocket's upper-stage engine nozzle.

"A replacement of the component is likely, but no firm decision has been made," [quote/]

http://www.floridatoday.com/story/tech/science/space/spacex/2015/01/07/spacex-targets-friday-launch-while-evaluating-rocket-component/21386343/
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Comga on 01/07/2015 06:31 PM
From Florida Today.

Quote
SpaceX is evaluating whether to replace a rocket component responsible for scrubbing Tuesday morning's attempt to launch an International Space Station resupply mission from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station.
It was not clear how the launch schedule might be impacted if the company decides to replace a faulty actuator in the system that controls steering of the rocket's upper-stage engine nozzle.

"A replacement of the component is likely, but no firm decision has been made," [quote/]

http://www.floridatoday.com/story/tech/science/space/spacex/2015/01/07/spacex-targets-friday-launch-while-evaluating-rocket-component/21386343/[/quote (http://www.floridatoday.com/story/tech/science/space/spacex/2015/01/07/spacex-targets-friday-launch-while-evaluating-rocket-component/21386343/[/quote)]
This is very interesting but really more germain to CRS-5, so I have cross posted it to the CRS-5 Discusion thread.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Confusador on 01/07/2015 06:49 PM

Is it possible that SpaceX has decided not to make the landing attempt due to high seas, and instead wait for a later launch for the first try?

The ISS is waiting for supplies.   The next spacecraft is onsite waiting for launch.

Irrelevant to whether they attempt landing on this launch.  The ships' captains certainly know something we don't, but whether that's that launch has been delayed due to the actuator, or the landing has been cancelled due to sea state, I couldn't say.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cscott on 01/07/2015 07:17 PM

Is it possible that SpaceX has decided not to make the landing attempt due to high seas, and instead wait for a later launch for the first try?

The ISS is waiting for supplies.   The next spacecraft is onsite waiting for launch.

Irrelevant to whether they attempt landing on this launch.  The ships' captains certainly know something we don't, but whether that's that launch has been delayed due to the actuator, or the landing has been cancelled due to sea state, I couldn't say.

Any of those might be the case, but it seems to require only ~12 hrs for them to get on station, so any conclusion at this point is a bit premature.

EDIT: I was wrong about the time, see below.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/07/2015 08:17 PM
12 hrs??? LZ is around 200 miles out, and the tug makes about 5 knots. More like 36 hrs.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Darga on 01/07/2015 08:32 PM
12 hrs??? LZ is around 200 miles out, and the tug makes about 5 knots. More like 36 hrs.

For the previous journey my records indicate Elsbeth III made it to sea at 19:51 central Jan 03 and arrived on location Jan 5 09:09 central or 37.2 hours plus or minus a few minutes at most.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cscott on 01/07/2015 08:41 PM
According to @cartman, the Go Quest is actually moving at 8kts -- it can move faster when it's not towing the ASDS, I guess.  So if it's 36 hrs at 5 kts, it's 22 hours at 8 kts?

But in any case it's clear I misinterpreted @Kabloona's earlier "12 hours" comment, since the Elsbeth III was already most of the way home when we wrote that.

36 hours before 4:47am Saturday is 4:47pm EST Thursday.  So my original comment about knowing "before 5pm Thursday" is still right!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/07/2015 08:48 PM
According to @cartman, the Go Quest is actually moving at 8kts -- it can move faster when it's not towing the ASDS, I guess.  So if it's 36 hrs at 5 kts, it's 22 hours at 8 kts?

Go Quest doesn't tow; it's the support ship. Elsbeth III is the tow boat, max speed 6 knots whether towing or not, so it's the limiting  factor.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: dorkmo on 01/07/2015 09:10 PM
According to @cartman, the Go Quest is actually moving at 8kts -- it can move faster when it's not towing the ASDS, I guess.  So if it's 36 hrs at 5 kts, it's 22 hours at 8 kts?

Go Quest doesn't tow; it's the support ship. Elsbeth III is the tow boat, max speed 6 knots whether towing or not, so it's the limiting  factor.

i think the quest is a type of ship that is able to tow, but as far as we know its not in this case. wouldnt want to rule it out completely
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Darga on 01/07/2015 10:08 PM
ASDS is back in Jacksonville. Images https://imgur.com/l9uR1Qd,TatrKQP,vqaSxyt#0
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cartman on 01/07/2015 10:13 PM
So, they are back. Last time they left about 40 hours before launch, so i guess they will have to leave in about 20 hours if they want to make it.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: dorkmo on 01/08/2015 06:07 AM
seems like they must be switching radio transmission types when they transition to port. in port marinetraffic.com works, at sea vesselfinder.com works. (for me at least?)

elsbeth did two little figure 8 type maneuvers. one right before entering the river and then again right before it reached the dock. i assume its changing its tie up to the barge somehow each time.

not really exciting but maybe something to watch on the vessel tracks in the future to determine if its moving asds or not.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kaputnik on 01/08/2015 07:36 AM
It's possible that the tug changes from a long tow (better out at sea) to a shorter one (better manoeuvrability)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/08/2015 07:46 AM
It's possible that the tug changes from a long tow (better out at sea) to a shorter one (better manoeuvrability)

hmm could that explain ElsbethIII's dance near landing zone ?

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36326.msg1310244#msg1310244
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cartman on 01/08/2015 09:26 AM
Carnival Fascination is getting in port, so we should be able to see if the ASDS leaves today
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Arb on 01/08/2015 10:37 AM
Re the recently constructed stand; this extract from the Draft CCAFS SLC-13 Environmental Impact Assesment gives some (official) sense of it's size, construction and purpose:

Quote
...a steel and concrete “stand” would be built to secure the Falcon stage during post-landing operations. The stand would consist of four Individual pedestal structures which would be transported to site and bolted to a concrete base. Each of the four pedestals, would weigh approximately 15,000 lbs, and would be 107 inches tall and 96.25 inches wide. A mobile crane would lift the stage from the landing pad, and transport and place it on the stand. Activities such as allowing the landing legs to be removed or folded back to the stage (flight position) prior to placing the stage in a horizontal position would occur there.

Source: http://www.patrick.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-141107-004.pdf (http://www.patrick.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-141107-004.pdf), pdf page 17.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/08/2015 10:43 AM
Here comes our spy ship. And one of the Mcallisters is doing rounds..
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Bargemanos on 01/08/2015 11:08 AM
There we are
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/08/2015 11:10 AM
Just as Fascination passed under Dames Point bridge, an anomaly in air gap data was observed  ;D

http://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/ports/ports.html?id=8720376&mode=airgap

EDIT: Lot of activity on deck. Erin Mcallister is nearby!(For cruise ship probably)
EDIT2: Ooh people are checking stuff on deck! Group of three inspecting specific points on deck(grid formation) one by one.
Edit3: added video
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: joshcryer on 01/08/2015 12:47 PM
Is the cruise ship being used by the SpaceX people? Seems so odd that it parks right next to the drone ship so regularly. :)

Unless it's doing regular rounds or trips and they just happen to coincide. Thanks for the video Ohsin.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/08/2015 01:06 PM
More deck work around 'tie downs' and it is being filled ?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: speedevil on 01/08/2015 01:17 PM
Is the cruise ship being used by the SpaceX people? Seems so odd that it parks right next to the drone ship so regularly. :)

Unless it's doing regular rounds or trips and they just happen to coincide. Thanks for the video Ohsin.

The cruise ship is a cruise ship.
It sells inexpensive short-term cruises round the Bahamas.
You can probably get a closeish in-person look at the barge .

http://www.carnival.co.uk/BookingEngine/cruise-search/?shipCode=FS&CID=Psearch_Brand_Ship_Names_Classes0000524&gclid=CIyi-ZjHhMMCFeHHtAodORAA5g
The next available trip is a 5 day cruise to the Bahamas leaving on the 17th, for about $600.

Upcoming F9 launches are in a couple of days, the 29th, and Feb 17th.
Assuming the barge is returned to port within a couple of days, if you wanted to have a chance of seeing it, you'd probably want to be either departing or arriving on 31st Jan/1st Feb, or Feb 19/20.
I don't off-hand know if the Carnival Fascination goes faster in the river than the barge.
If so - that would be an additional opportunity to catch it.

There is a 5 days cruise departing on the 26th, and arriving back on the 31st with interior cabins for two at $350.
And one departing on Feb 14th, and arriving the 19th.

(I am not connected in any way with the above cruise-line)
,
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/08/2015 01:22 PM
Gregg and Stacy are hovering nearby. Also truck stopped by for fueling ASDS :D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cscott on 01/08/2015 01:32 PM
Re the recently constructed stand; this extract from the Draft CCAFS SLC-13 Environmental Impact Assesment gives some (official) sense of it's size, construction and purpose:
From the same source (there's a dedicated thread (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36513.msg1312095#msg1312095)), the following bit gives some insight into ASDS on-board operations:
Quote
A FireX system would be constructed with three or four remote controlled water cannons mounted on posts above ground to allow for remote firefighting capabilities. [...]

[...] Safing activities would begin upon completion of all landing activities and engine shutdown. The LOX oxidizer system would be purged, and any excess fuel would be drained into a suitable truck mounted container or tanker. Any remaining pressurants (i.e., helium or nitrogen) would be vented, and any FTS explosives would also be rendered “inert” prior to declaring the vehicle safe. [ed: then presumably the stage would be secured and the ASDS would return to shore and the following steps would take place at port:] The vehicle would then be lifted and placed on to the stand; the landing legs would then be removed or folded back into place. The vehicle would then be lowered into a horizontal position, placed on a transport vehicle and taken to a SpaceX facility.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/08/2015 01:38 PM
Looks like the last unidentified yellow 'box' on ASDS is also a fuel tank...so five NOV fuel tanks and two NOV generators.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/08/2015 02:00 PM
They are removing that white ramp .ASDS is about to leave port ?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: robertross on 01/08/2015 02:04 PM
They are removing that white ramp .ASDS is about to leave port ?

Can't have a gangway attached if it's going to leave...

So yes, that would be my guess
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/08/2015 02:06 PM
They are removing that white ramp .ASDS is about to leave port ?

Can't have a gangway attached if it's going to leave...

So yes, that would be my guess

I was thinking may be they'll attach from other wing...it is facing other way today you see.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Bargemanos on 01/08/2015 02:10 PM
on the move!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Brick_top on 01/08/2015 02:25 PM
Isn't it a bit soon for it to leave if it is going to be used Saturday? Maybe it is going somewhere else
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: robertross on 01/08/2015 02:28 PM
on the move!

Oh, look at the ramps in the water to access the underside of the overhangs. I hadn't seen that before.

So perhaps they are spinning the barge 180 degrees to get to the underside.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/08/2015 02:31 PM
As it left a small boat was lowered by crane to follow it.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: speedevil on 01/08/2015 02:34 PM
From the application for a new pad at Canaveral.
http://www.patrick.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-141107-004.pdf (http://www.patrick.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-141107-004.pdf)

'Although propellants would be burned to exhaustion during fight, there is the potential for 15 gallons of LOX, and 150 gallons of RP1 to remain in the falcon 9 after landing'.

That seems ... impressively small, and addresses some of the concerns raised about 'safing' the rocket, and potential hazards.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/08/2015 02:43 PM
Isn't it a bit soon for it to leave if it is going to be used Saturday? Maybe it is going somewhere else

No, it's been standard practice for the barge to leave port 3 days in advance.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cscott on 01/08/2015 02:47 PM
There's already a thread for the LC13 landing site info (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36513.0).  And in fact information from it has been mentioned here twice (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36326.msg1312075#msg1312075) before (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36326.msg1312114#msg1312114).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/08/2015 02:52 PM
There's already a thread for this (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36513.0).  And in fact information from it has been mentioned here twice (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36326.msg1312075#msg1312075) before (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36326.msg1312114#msg1312114).

Sorry, missed that. Suggestion retracted.  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Jakusb on 01/08/2015 03:21 PM
Elsbeth is doing another "figure-8"... roughly the same place... Seems to prepare to go to open sea...
So they only returned for getting new supplies (fuel and such)?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cscott on 01/08/2015 03:31 PM
Sounds like this is what they will do with the stage when it returns on the barge (from the LC-13 document mentioned above.) Not any surprise, but it confirms speculation about how the stage would be safed after barge landing and handled after return to port:

Quote
.   Safing activities would begin upon completion of all landing activities and engine shutdown. The LOX oxidizer system would be purged, and any excess fuel would be drained into a suitable truck mounted container or tanker. Any remaining pressurants (i.e., helium or nitrogen) would be vented, and any FTS explosives would also be rendered “inert” prior to declaring the vehicle safe. The vehicle would then be lifted and placed on to the stand; the landing legs would then be removed or folded back into place. The vehicle would then be lowered into a horizontal position, placed on a transport vehicle and taken to a SpaceX facility.

You do realize this is an almost verbatim copy of the post I wrote (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36326.msg1312114#msg1312114), linked in the bit you quote in your own post (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36326.msg1312163#msg1312163) (the word 'before').

EDIT: sorry for being so short with you, Kabloona.  Leaving this quote of your original post here just in case others missed the info the first time.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/08/2015 03:33 PM
ElsbethIII on her way Go quest still at port. And chase boat is back and was fished out.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/08/2015 03:38 PM
Sounds like this is what they will do with the stage when it returns on the barge (from the LC-13 document mentioned above.) Not any surprise, but it confirms speculation about how the stage would be safed after barge landing and handled after return to port:

Quote
.   Safing activities would begin upon completion of all landing activities and engine shutdown. The LOX oxidizer system would be purged, and any excess fuel would be drained into a suitable truck mounted container or tanker. Any remaining pressurants (i.e., helium or nitrogen) would be vented, and any FTS explosives would also be rendered “inert” prior to declaring the vehicle safe. The vehicle would then be lifted and placed on to the stand; the landing legs would then be removed or folded back into place. The vehicle would then be lowered into a horizontal position, placed on a transport vehicle and taken to a SpaceX facility.

You do realize this is an almost verbatim copy of the post I wrote (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36326.msg1312114#msg1312114), linked in the bit you quote in your own post (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36326.msg1312163#msg1312163) (the word 'before').

Makes me feel like nobody is actually reading my posts.  Maybe I need to start including webcam photos of the ASDS in them.

Sorry, no, honestly, I didn't see your earlier post. I got up late this morning Deleting mine now.  ;)

And if it helps, I always read your posts when I see them and always agree with you. Didn't mean to step on any toes.  :-[
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/08/2015 03:39 PM
I now worry about lightning protection while enroute.

Can a vertical salt water jet help in any way?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/08/2015 03:41 PM
Past the APM terminal.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/08/2015 03:44 PM
Looks like Elsbeth III is towing and Gregg Mcallister is pushing.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/08/2015 05:01 PM
Go Quest on move
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: NotOnImpact on 01/08/2015 05:16 PM

Oh, look at the ramps in the water to access the underside of the overhangs. I hadn't seen that before.

So perhaps they are spinning the barge 180 degrees to get to the underside.

I am thinking those are in place to keep the barge far enough away from the dock so that the girders that hold up the wings don't come into contact with the dock.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: robertross on 01/08/2015 05:28 PM

Oh, look at the ramps in the water to access the underside of the overhangs. I hadn't seen that before.

So perhaps they are spinning the barge 180 degrees to get to the underside.

I am thinking those are in place to keep the barge far enough away from the dock so that the girders that hold up the wings don't come into contact with the dock.

Okay, that actually makes more sense. A strong wave and the barge would just ride up the ramp.
Good call.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/08/2015 05:46 PM
Looks like Elsbeth III is towing and Gregg Mcallister is pushing.

Gregg Mcallister returning to port. Elsbeth III headed out to sea, with GO Quest a few miles behind.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Mongo62 on 01/08/2015 08:16 PM
Have not seen this link here. A great compilation of video footage from multiple viewpoints of BargeX being towed to its destination today. In the last sequence, which starts at 1:19 and takes up the bulk of the total length, it takes a while for BargeX to become visible (it's finally fully visible at 2:42), but it's worth the wait.

SpaceX Barge/ASDS Being Worked On, Fueled, and Towed out of Jacksonville Port on 2015-01-08 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZLG9m1idkI)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Comga on 01/08/2015 08:35 PM
Have not seen this link here. A great compilation of video footage from multiple viewpoints of BargeX being towed to its destination today. In the last sequence, which starts at 1:19 and takes up the bulk of the total length, it takes a while for BargeX to become visible (it's finally fully visible at 2:42), but it's worth the wait.

SpaceX Barge/ASDS Being Worked On, Fueled, and Towed out of Jacksonville Port on 2015-01-08 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZLG9m1idkI)

Really cool
One thing to notice is the clear visibility of the tow line.  Granted that these images were from close range and at very low angle, but they show that the line would disturb the water enough to be visible.  There was some debate about the arial photo of the ASDS out near its "station".  Some insisted that it was moving itself.  Some thought that it could be under tow.  Not only does the length of the tow line in the video suggest that any tug would have been in the frame, the interaction of the tow line with the water would very likely have been visible.  So no tug, line, or waves from either weighs heavily in favor of the ASDS having been operating autonomously. 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cscott on 01/08/2015 09:08 PM
Have not seen this link here. A great compilation of video footage from multiple viewpoints of BargeX being towed to its destination today. In the last sequence, which starts at 1:19 and takes up the bulk of the total length, it takes a while for BargeX to become visible (it's finally fully visible at 2:42), but it's worth the wait.

SpaceX Barge/ASDS Being Worked On, Fueled, and Towed out of Jacksonville Port on 2015-01-08 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZLG9m1idkI)

Really cool
One thing to notice is the clear visibility of the tow line.  Granted that these images were from close range and at very low angle, but they show that the line would disturb the water enough to be visible.  There was some debate about the arial photo of the ASDS out near its "station".  Some insisted that it was moving itself.  Some thought that it could be under tow.  Not only does the length of the tow line in the video suggest that any tug would have been in the frame, the interaction of the tow line with the water would very likely have been visible.  So no tug, line, or waves from either weighs heavily in favor of the ASDS having been operating autonomously.

Be careful drawing conclusions.  The "figure 8 maneuvers" seem to indicate a change in towing configuration after the ASDS leaves the channel.  So you can't necessarily assume that the ASDS under tow in the open ocean would look like it does here.

In particular, the ASDS is being pushed by the Gregg McAllister in this video!  We know that Gregg doesn't leave the channel.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: sdsds on 01/08/2015 09:13 PM
Go Quest is now reported as being "out of range" on marinetraffic.com.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cartman on 01/08/2015 09:34 PM
And vesselfinder seems to have lost the station that gave us long range tracking of our boats, now nothing is showing more than a few miles away from coast
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/08/2015 09:42 PM
So many questions..
Lightning protection? Is there any? , Are 'tie downs' ballast tank hatches?, What is the exclusion area around ASDS? If its 10miles do they let it go out of this radius and then it covers distance and station keep unassisted? Were they just topping off the tanks or they  really needed refueling , how much fuel it can consume during each outing as delays can really mess up recovery operation if it needs to be refueled frequently.. we know how much those thrusters can consume, how much those two generators may burn....etc etc
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Comga on 01/08/2015 10:34 PM
Have not seen this link here. A great compilation of video footage from multiple viewpoints of BargeX being towed to its destination today. In the last sequence, which starts at 1:19 and takes up the bulk of the total length, it takes a while for BargeX to become visible (it's finally fully visible at 2:42), but it's worth the wait.

SpaceX Barge/ASDS Being Worked On, Fueled, and Towed out of Jacksonville Port on 2015-01-08 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZLG9m1idkI)

Really cool
One thing to notice is the clear visibility of the tow line.  Granted that these images were from close range and at very low angle, but they show that the line would disturb the water enough to be visible.  There was some debate about the arial photo of the ASDS out near its "station".  Some insisted that it was moving itself.  Some thought that it could be under tow.  Not only does the length of the tow line in the video suggest that any tug would have been in the frame, the interaction of the tow line with the water would very likely have been visible.  So no tug, line, or waves from either weighs heavily in favor of the ASDS having been operating autonomously.

Be careful drawing conclusions.  The "figure 8 maneuvers" seem to indicate a change in towing configuration after the ASDS leaves the channel.  So you can't necessarily assume that the ASDS under tow in the open ocean would look like it does here.

In particular, the ASDS is being pushed by the Gregg McAllister in this video!  We know that Gregg doesn't leave the channel.
But if the tug is pushing it would have been within the frame of the picture.
"You can't push a rope."
We saw the ASDS being pushed AND towed.
The logical conclusion remains that the arial image showed the ASDS operating autonomously.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: akku on 01/08/2015 10:35 PM
In November 2009, the STS-129 space shuttle mission attached two antennas—an AIS VHF antenna, and an Amateur Radio antenna to the Columbus module of the ISS. Both antennas were built in cooperation between ESA and the ARISS team (Amateur Radio on ISS). Starting from May 2010 the European Space Agency is testing an AIS receiver from Kongsberg Seatex (Norway) in a consortium lead by FFI (Norway) in the frame of technology demonstration for space-based ship monitoring. This is a first step towards a satellite-based AIS-monitoring service.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Identification_System

>> vesselfinder ;)

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cscott on 01/08/2015 10:59 PM
But if the tug is pushing it would have been within the frame of the picture.

Exactly.  There was no tug pushing it in the open ocean.  There was a tug pushing it in the video taken in the channel.  Therefore video taken in the channel can't be used to make claims about what tow conditions in the open ocean are like.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: NotOnImpact on 01/08/2015 11:27 PM
I am pretty sure that I see one or two people are on the ASDS as it leaves the port in the video.   That means that they have to get off of it at some point.  Perhaps that is part of the figure 8 that the tug does after it leaves the channel?  Or maybe they stay on until further out.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: CameronD on 01/09/2015 01:12 AM
But if the tug is pushing it would have been within the frame of the picture.

Exactly.  There was no tug pushing it in the open ocean.  There was a tug pushing it in the video taken in the channel.  Therefore video taken in the channel can't be used to make claims about what tow conditions in the open ocean are like.

The channel will be considered to be restricted waters where the ability to manouver a vessel (a normal vessel at least) is limited.  It's likely that the Port Authority insisted that BargeX have an additional tug pushing for the duration of the voyage in the channel to guard against the ASDS going AWOL if the tow broke.

And if there are any guys on board seen jumping off at the river mouth, they're possibly harbour pilots/crew off the pushing (escort) tug.
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: robertross on 01/09/2015 02:06 AM
So many questions..
Lightning protection? Is there any? , Are 'tie downs' ballast tank hatches?, What is the exclusion area around ASDS? If its 10miles do they let it go out of this radius and then it covers distance and station keep unassisted? Were they just topping off the tanks or they  really needed refueling , how much fuel it can consume during each outing as delays can really mess up recovery operation if it needs to be refueled frequently.. we know how much those thrusters can consume, how much those two generators may burn....etc etc

I can probably answer one of those:
The plan was to weld plates over the landing pads to secure them to the deck.
Now if they are to tie down the stage from higher up, they can simply weld plates with U-bolts or shackles to the deck and attach cables at some pre-determined attach point. but I doubt that's needed.

As for lightning protection: if required I suppose they could mount a copper rod higher than the stage & ground it to the deck surface. Potential problem solved (excuse the pun).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Nomadd on 01/09/2015 04:52 AM
So many questions..
Lightning protection? Is there any? , Are 'tie downs' ballast tank hatches?, What is the exclusion area around ASDS? If its 10miles do they let it go out of this radius and then it covers distance and station keep unassisted? Were they just topping off the tanks or they  really needed refueling , how much fuel it can consume during each outing as delays can really mess up recovery operation if it needs to be refueled frequently.. we know how much those thrusters can consume, how much those two generators may burn....etc etc

I can probably answer one of those:
The plan was to weld plates over the landing pads to secure them to the deck.
Now if they are to tie down the stage from higher up, they can simply weld plates with U-bolts or shackles to the deck and attach cables at some pre-determined attach point. but I doubt that's needed.

As for lightning protection: if required I suppose they could mount a copper rod higher than the stage & ground it to the deck surface. Potential problem solved (excuse the pun).
I doubt if they want a tall structure like that on the deck and just one wouldn't do the job anyway. I bet they'll just make a solid ground to the stage itself part of the securing procedure. The stage might have it's own rods and ground paths ready to hook to a deck point too. As long as the tanks have a solid path to ground they should escape damage. The controller might be at risk from the sensor/control paths picking up some ugly EMF, but those lines can all have their own protection if they're concerned.
 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: dorkmo on 01/09/2015 04:55 AM
In November 2009, the STS-129 space shuttle mission attached two antennas—an AIS VHF antenna, and an Amateur Radio antenna to the Columbus module of the ISS. Both antennas were built in cooperation between ESA and the ARISS team (Amateur Radio on ISS). Starting from May 2010 the European Space Agency is testing an AIS receiver from Kongsberg Seatex (Norway) in a consortium lead by FFI (Norway) in the frame of technology demonstration for space-based ship monitoring. This is a first step towards a satellite-based AIS-monitoring service.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Identification_System

>> vesselfinder ;)

So does this mean the off shore data is being collected iss? So when the iss Flys over we get a spike in data, then nothing till it comes around again? Might keep an eye out.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: avollhar on 01/09/2015 05:09 AM
What about AISSAT-1/2 and VESSELSAT-1/2 ? Possibly also AISat-1.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Jarnis on 01/09/2015 07:02 AM
Look, on AIS;

- There are many satellites that receive AIS data. Yeah, they once used ISS to test AIS tech, but that was years ago.
- Satellite-based AIS information is still a "premium service" - shipowners pay good money to track their assets anywhere.
- Shore-based AIS receivers are "old tech" and required. That is the data most ship following sites have access to and are freely showing. Since AIS needs to be on when close to the shore for boats above certain size, this shows everything that is on the move pretty well up to certain distance from the shore.
- Free websites like vesselfinder may or may not be getting satellite-based AIS data. They may be getting it from only one source, which may or may not be available at any given time.

So in summary, for tracking SpaceX-related vessels, we generally can see them on the move near the shore. Beyond that it is a crapshoot and does not mean they turn off their AIS onboard to "hide". It may be on, but our crappy freebie sites just are not getting data from that area at the time.

Now if someone wants to have a better idea if they have actively shut down AIS aboard those vessels, first step would be to pay for global satellite AIS data access. Here you go - 269e a month, for 12 month subscription. Whoooops.

http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/p/satellite-ais

...and that one gives the data with 12 hour delay, except for a small number of "my fleet" ships that get live tracking.

If you ask me, I think vesselfinder may have ninja-enabled satellite AIS for that area and/or for those ships on the free site to get some more traffic/promotion during the first launch attempt, but then switched back to normal situation.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/09/2015 02:30 PM
Quote
...for tracking SpaceX-related vessels, we generally can see them on the move near the shore. Beyond that it is a crapshoot and does not mean they turn off their AIS onboard to "hide". It may be on, but our crappy freebie sites just are not getting data from that area at the time.   

I have the MarineTraffic app that always lost track of the ships shortly after they left port. I had assumed the ships were turning their transponders off, then learned that the app doesn't show AIS satellite data, so you are correct.

And yes, both ships have disappeared from VesselFinder since Jan 7, so it looks like we are in the dark once again.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: sghill on 01/09/2015 06:18 PM
I am not a magnet professional (but I do use them in my dayjob to some extend) and what they dont like is shocks, temperature changes and stress. I dont know how expensive magnets would be that are strong enough to keep a F9 in place, or how heavy. I dont see fundamental show-stoppers other than maybe too much weight.

An other option would be to include iron feet, so ferromagnetic material but not a permanent magnet and use an electro magnet on the barge. But that also seems to be a huge investment. Not to speak of the power consumption that the barge would need or that.

You may be the crystal ball winner here!
Quote
In response to a question about the planned Falcon 9 first-stage rocket landing, Musk said the stage would use "mostly gravity" to stay on the robotic ship, with "steel shoes over the landing feet as a precautionary measure...

http://www.space.com/28215-elon-musk-spacex-mars-colony-idea.html
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cscott on 01/09/2015 06:19 PM
An other option would be to include iron feet, so ferromagnetic material but not a permanent magnet and use an electro magnet on the barge. But that also seems to be a huge investment. Not to speak of the power consumption that the barge would need or that.

You may be the crystal ball winner here!

Uh, no.  Look at Elon's full quote.  No magnets involved.  Just a welder.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: ravedave on 01/09/2015 09:47 PM
Quote
...for tracking SpaceX-related vessels, we generally can see them on the move near the shore. Beyond that it is a crapshoot and does not mean they turn off their AIS onboard to "hide". It may be on, but our crappy freebie sites just are not getting data from that area at the time.   

I have the MarineTraffic app that always lost track of the ships shortly after they left port. I had assumed the ships were turning their transponders off, then learned that the app doesn't show AIS satellite data, so you are correct.

And yes, both ships have disappeared from VesselFinder since Jan 7, so it looks like we are in the dark once again.

Use 'show tracks' on MarineTraffic and the path & last location of the EIII can be seen.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/09/2015 10:09 PM
Quote
Use 'show tracks' on MarineTraffic and the path & last location of the EIII can be seen.
   


On both MarineTraffic.com and the MarineTraffic app, AIS data from both GO Quest and EIII stopped being shown Thursday afternoon as the ships moved offshore. Any tracking data shown is from Thursday or earlier, so not of much interest at the moment.

Vesselfinder.com is still dark, too.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ludus on 01/10/2015 05:42 AM
Once the stages fly back to land the barge will still be around for FHR center core attempts.

It could be unused though during some historic SpaceX launches (as well as most of the time otherwise). I know what Tony Stark would do. Worlds largest robotic offshore party barge. That's a billionaire genius playboy version of a pontoon boat.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Robotbeat on 01/10/2015 06:02 AM
It'll be needed for F9 launches which don't have quite enough performance for return-to-launchsite.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: IRobot on 01/10/2015 08:32 AM
Wave height at the closest buoy is around 1.5 meters. Wind seems acceptable, around 15kn (8m/s).

http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/station_page.php?station=41010&unit=M&tz=STN
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: OxCartMark on 01/10/2015 09:09 AM
EM: "Rocket made it back to drone spaceport ship, but landed hard. Close, but no cigar this time. Bodes well for the future tho."
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: mheney on 01/10/2015 09:11 AM
Going to be interesting to see it back in port with scorch marks ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Burninate on 01/10/2015 09:11 AM
Elon Musk: Ship itself is fine. Some of the support equipment on the deck will need to be replaced
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Mapperuo on 01/10/2015 09:12 AM
Real shame about that, guess our chance of seeing video is gone. :(
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: OxCartMark on 01/10/2015 09:15 AM
Fire, or just impact?  Back to Louisiana or locally repairable (where are the local shipyards?)?  Ready for 1/29 attempt? 

EM: didn't get good video,,,, have actual pieces
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Hotblack Desiato on 01/10/2015 09:17 AM
why?

to me, it is already impressive that they actually hit the barge. I expected that they might come down within 1 km around the barge, but hit the water.

the real question is now: did the stage remain on the barge, or did it tip over into the water and sink?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: neoforce on 01/10/2015 09:20 AM
Going to be interesting to see it back in port with scorch marks ;)

I think there a good chance we don't see it on our favorite webcams.  If there is damage to support equipment, won't it go back to the ship builder that did the original outfitting?

I just hope it can be ready in time for the next launch!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Escapist on 01/10/2015 09:20 AM
Quote
Didn't get good landing/impact video. Pitch dark and foggy. Will piece it together from telemetry and ... actual pieces.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/553855109114101760 (https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/553855109114101760)

Seems that it blew up - but getting at least some of the pieces back is still phenomenal.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: OxCartMark on 01/10/2015 09:25 AM
I'm going back to bed.  I want pictures on my desk by the time I get back up.  Is that clear?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Clyde on 01/10/2015 09:42 AM
Going to be interesting to see it back in port with scorch marks ;)

I think there a good chance we don't see it on our favorite webcams.  If there is damage to support equipment, won't it go back to the ship builder that did the original outfitting?

I just hope it can be ready in time for the next launch!

Yes big question is whether the ship can be repaired in time for DSCOVR flight at end of january.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cscott on 01/10/2015 09:44 AM
Good luck to the GO QUEST crew, how are probably fighting fires and fishing pieces out of the Atlantic in the dark right now.  Still --- what a job!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/10/2015 09:47 AM
Going to be interesting to see it back in port with scorch marks ;)

I think there a good chance we don't see it on our favorite webcams.  If there is damage to support equipment, won't it go back to the ship builder that did the original outfitting?

I just hope it can be ready in time for the next launch!
Yes big question is whether the ship can be repaired in time for DSCOVR flight at end of january.


Duct tape will do.

And I think those things crew were checking on before deck departure align with ballast tank positions...need to look just a bit harder but that later "P
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: speedevil on 01/10/2015 09:54 AM
And I think those things crew were checking on before deck departure align with ballast tank positions...need to look just a bit harder but that later "P
Those are clearly cryogenic tanks to fill the internal reservoirs for re-flight.(*)

*) probably not
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: OSE on 01/10/2015 10:09 AM
If the ASDS started heading back to port (not shipyard) right now (unlikely), how long will it take?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: speedevil on 01/10/2015 10:30 AM
If the ASDS started heading back to port (not shipyard) right now (unlikely), how long will it take?

Under a couple of days.
I guess it depends on where and how much damage has occurred.
Fuel tanks are probably easily repairable, for example.
Thrusters might have extended lead-times, and if one or more thruster hydraulic pumps or engines are damaged, there may be extended lead-time sourcing new ones.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: eriblo on 01/10/2015 10:42 AM
If the ASDS started heading back to port (not shipyard) right now (unlikely), how long will it take?

Under a couple of days.
I guess it depends on where and how much damage has occurred.
Fuel tanks are probably easily repairable, for example.
Thrusters might have extended lead-times, and if one or more thruster hydraulic pumps or engines are damaged, there may be extended lead-time sourcing new ones.

It might go a little slower back than out if they cant use the thrusters - if they even used them during the transition. What will take longer time is getting back aboard, securing everything and assessing the damage before they can even get started back. All depends on the amount and type of damage and debris, there might even be fires to put out (small amounts of RP-1, larger amounts of diesel fuel). Didn't sound that bad from Elon's tweets though.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/10/2015 10:50 AM
If the ASDS started heading back to port (not shipyard) right now (unlikely), how long will it take?

~35-40 hrs

See discussion here
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36326.msg1311830#msg1311830
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/10/2015 12:35 PM
Barge should be back in port Sunday night. Fascination is due in port Monday morning, so we may get a good view of debris removal/cleanup activities.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: jabe on 01/10/2015 01:02 PM
Barge should be back in port Sunday night. Fascination is due in port Monday morning, so we may get a good view of debris removal/cleanup activities.
barge? Spacex has a barge??  I thought they had a drone ship?  :)
jb
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: woods170 on 01/10/2015 02:06 PM
why?

to me, it is already impressive that they actually hit the barge. I expected that they might come down within 1 km around the barge, but hit the water.

the real question is now: did the stage remain on the barge, or did it tip over into the water and sink?
Indeed. The fact that it made it to the barge proves that pinpoint landings with returning stages is possible. Another BIG first for SpaceX.

If the stage hit the barge hard enough it likely would have resulted in cracking the pressurized stage open. Not a good thing when there still is kerosene and LOx onboard. IMO there will have been some sort of 'boom!'.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: dorkmo on 01/10/2015 02:14 PM
Sounds like the hydraulic system was likely made inoperable on one or two of the thrusters. Which would mean they'd be stuck in the down position. I guess they'll have to spend some time dealing with that. Might just connect new hyd hoses to quest temp and fold them up?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Comga on 01/10/2015 02:24 PM
Sounds like the hydraulic system was likely made inoperable on one or two of the thrusters. Which would mean they'd be stuck in the down position. I guess they'll have to spend some time dealing with that. Might just connect new hyd hoses to quest temp and fold them up?
If you have a basis for this wild speculation please detail it. 
Where have you seen mention of hydraulics or thrusters, or any link at all between the two?
There are no thrusters in "the down position" nor do the thrusters move.
Shy of real information, there isn't much use in guessing what went wrong. 
Likewise if one or two of your points can be clarified but the basis is still speculation, there isn't a reason to go back and forth on this.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cscott on 01/10/2015 02:41 PM
@Comga, there are Thrustmaster thrusters, which are indeed hydralically powered.  If you read this thread from the beginning you'll find an identification of every major box on deck and its purpose.

It's fair to ask how @dorkmo got his information about the thrusters, but the rest is well documented in this thread already.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Comga on 01/10/2015 03:13 PM
@Comga, there are Thrustmaster thrusters, which are indeed hydralically powered.  If you read this thread from the beginning you'll find an identification of every major box on deck and its purpose.

It's fair to ask how @dorkmo got his information about the thrusters, but the rest is well documented in this thread already.

Oh.  Sorry.  Thrusters on the barge.  I thought he was referring to cold gas thrusters on the first stage.  The post was not specific.

I still have seen absolutely no information on any damage to the thrusters.  The only news was Musk's tweet that they will have to replace some things on the deck.  The Thrustmaster propulsion units are under the deck, and well protected.

Was dorkmo saying that among the damaged items is a hydraulic generator without which they will be unable to lift the station keeping thrusters out of the water?  What would be the basis for that?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/10/2015 04:02 PM
The Thrustmaster propulsion units are under the deck, and well protected.

The drive units are under the deck, but the diesel engines and the hydraulic pumps which power the drive units are inside the blue containers on deck.

So if one of the blue containers took a hit, that could knock out a Thrustmaster.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cscott on 01/10/2015 05:08 PM
Playing @dorkmo's advocate for a moment, I *think* he was speculating on what might cause the ASDS to be delayed in its return to shore.

If any of the on-deck thrustmaster stuff was damaged, causing a thruster pod to be stuck in the down position but inactive, that might indeed cause a bit of at-sea delay while it's attended to.  Perhaps they can cross-plumb some of the hydraulics in order to retract the thruster pod at least.

None of the other on-deck equipment seems critical to sea-worthiness during towing operations, so any other damage will probably not prevent an on-time return to within range of our greedy little webcam-assisted eyes. ;)

(I personally think that at-sea recovery operations of debris will probably delay return a day or so, but not more.)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: sghill on 01/10/2015 05:22 PM
An other option would be to include iron feet, so ferromagnetic material but not a permanent magnet and use an electro magnet on the barge. But that also seems to be a huge investment. Not to speak of the power consumption that the barge would need or that.

You may be the crystal ball winner here!

Uh, no.  Look at Elon's full quote.  No magnets involved.  Just a welder.

Rats. I was hoping to see workers plastered to the deck, held there by belt buckles  and cell phones...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: speedevil on 01/10/2015 05:37 PM
If any of the on-deck thrustmaster stuff was damaged, causing a thruster pod to be stuck in the down position but inactive, that might indeed cause a bit of at-sea delay while it's attended to.  Perhaps they can cross-plumb some of the hydraulics in order to retract the thruster pod at least.
It seems extremely questionable that the thrusters will have any meaningful drag preventing towing, or be further damaged by doing so.

The port is deep enough, as is the river - for the deployed thrusters.
The thrusters have been run in dock IIRC to test them.
There was an image I think in the first thread of this.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Robotbeat on 01/10/2015 07:54 PM
I'm not worried too much about the barge itself. It's like getting landed on by a giant empty soda can. It's the fire that's likely to have done the most damage.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Coastal Ron on 01/10/2015 08:02 PM
I'm not worried too much about the barge itself. It's like getting landed on by a giant empty soda can. It's the fire that's likely to have done the most damage.

Was there a fire?  I assumed the damage was just from the staging tipping over and landing on exposed equipment.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Avron on 01/10/2015 08:09 PM
I'm not worried too much about the barge itself. It's like getting landed on by a giant empty soda can. It's the fire that's likely to have done the most damage.

Was there a fire?  I assumed the damage was just from the staging tipping over and landing on exposed equipment.
  I think hard landing is closer to controlled crash..  the good news, it that I am told quote "its a tough little barge"
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: llanitedave on 01/10/2015 08:21 PM
If there's any residual fuel I'd expect a small fire.  Even 15 gallons can make quite a spectacular show, momentarily.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Robotbeat on 01/10/2015 08:24 PM
Yeah, barges tend to be pretty tough, especially compared to gossamer aerospace structures.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/10/2015 09:17 PM
Yeah, barges tend to be pretty tough, especially compared to gossamer aerospace structures.

Yup.  Two minutes after the hard landing, the barge goes "Well are they coming in or not?"
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Geron on 01/10/2015 09:25 PM
Musk says the next attempt is February, any idea which mission?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: ugordan on 01/10/2015 09:31 PM
DSCOVR.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: robertross on 01/10/2015 10:55 PM
I'm not worried too much about the barge itself. It's like getting landed on by a giant empty soda can. It's the fire that's likely to have done the most damage.

Was there a fire?  I assumed the damage was just from the staging tipping over and landing on exposed equipment.

Depends on the quantities of the remaining propellants: LOX & RP-1.
If you run a little fuel rich, you want to have a bit more 'in the tank' per se.

SO I bet there was some RP-1 left that may have ignited. No biggy, I'm sure. If there was a good quantity of LOX left over and it helped the fire along, then you'd see a good fire ball.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/10/2015 10:59 PM
Yeah, barges tend to be pretty tough, especially compared to gossamer aerospace structures.

Yup.  Two minutes after the hard landing, the barge goes "Well are they coming in or not?"

And then it goes, "Why is it so hot out here?"
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Bob Shaw on 01/10/2015 11:27 PM
Hey, they did terribly well to get even halfway there! Let's dwell on the positives, never mind not quite landing the thing in the dark, fog, and heaving seas!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: QuantumG on 01/10/2015 11:33 PM
It'd be much easier to accentuate the positive if so many people weren't trying to eliminate the negative. "Look at how far we've come" should always be tempered with how far there is still to go.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: llanitedave on 01/10/2015 11:34 PM
Like, Mars!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Rocket Science on 01/10/2015 11:37 PM
I'm not worried too much about the barge itself. It's like getting landed on by a giant empty soda can. It's the fire that's likely to have done the most damage.

Was there a fire?  I assumed the damage was just from the staging tipping over and landing on exposed equipment.

Depends on the quantities of the remaining propellants: LOX & RP-1.
If you run a little fuel rich, you want to have a bit more 'in the tank' per se.

SO I bet there was some RP-1 left that may have ignited. No biggy, I'm sure. If there was a good quantity of LOX left over and it helped the fire along, then you'd see a good fire ball.
Maybe SBIRS saw it's heat signature... Oh those SpaceX folks must be trying something new again... ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Bob Shaw on 01/10/2015 11:41 PM
It'd be much easier to accentuate the positive if so many people weren't trying to eliminate the negative. "Look at how far we've come" should always be tempered with how far there is still to go.


Certainly. But even hitting the barge is a helluva triumph. Really, really impressive. My day-to-day job is in that area, and *really* the SpaceX guys (and gals) (and whatevers) did so, so, well getting as far as they have. Trust me, they really did well - anything at sea is far more of a challenge than on terra firma. Add rockets, and...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/11/2015 01:16 AM
It'd be much easier to accentuate the positive if so many people weren't trying to eliminate the negative. "Look at how far we've come" should always be tempered with how far there is still to go.
I absolutely hate when people do that, but looking it at objectively, listing off which bits worked, which didn't, and why,  I count this as a very good result, one that I'd have signed up for in a heartbeat if offered to by the devil ahead of time.

EDIT: ok, maybe two heartbeats. I'm as greedy as the next guy. But still. Check marks on re-entry and all flight regimes, and fail on a (predictable)  triviality during terminal guidance? Don't need to be a fanboy to feel happy about that.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: mvpel on 01/11/2015 01:21 AM

Maybe SBIRS saw it's heat signature... Oh those SpaceX folks must be trying something new again... ;D

No "maybe" about it. ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Lars-J on 01/11/2015 02:40 AM
It'd be much easier to accentuate the positive if so many people weren't trying to eliminate the negative. "Look at how far we've come" should always be tempered with how far there is still to go.

Always? That is a ridiculous standard to apply to most things.
Kid: I just scored my first basket in a Jr. High game!
Mom: But your're not in the NBA yet, are you?

Baby steps. But the important thing is that they are steps in the right direction.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: ChrisWilson68 on 01/11/2015 03:30 AM
Sounds like the hydraulic system was likely made inoperable on one or two of the thrusters. Which would mean they'd be stuck in the down position. I guess they'll have to spend some time dealing with that. Might just connect new hyd hoses to quest temp and fold them up?

If you're taking this from Musk's tweet about running out of hydraulic fluid, he was referring to hydraulic fluid on the stage, not on the ASDS.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: ChrisWilson68 on 01/11/2015 03:30 AM
So many questions..
Lightning protection? Is there any? , Are 'tie downs' ballast tank hatches?, What is the exclusion area around ASDS? If its 10miles do they let it go out of this radius and then it covers distance and station keep unassisted? Were they just topping off the tanks or they  really needed refueling , how much fuel it can consume during each outing as delays can really mess up recovery operation if it needs to be refueled frequently.. we know how much those thrusters can consume, how much those two generators may burn....etc etc

I can probably answer one of those:
The plan was to weld plates over the landing pads to secure them to the deck.
Now if they are to tie down the stage from higher up, they can simply weld plates with U-bolts or shackles to the deck and attach cables at some pre-determined attach point. but I doubt that's needed.

There might be pre-existing tie-down points if they plan to tie the stage down before starting welding.  Welding might be pretty quick, but tying down is even quicker, and they might want the stage as secure as possible before starting the welds.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: robertross on 01/11/2015 03:40 AM
So many questions..
Lightning protection? Is there any? , Are 'tie downs' ballast tank hatches?, What is the exclusion area around ASDS? If its 10miles do they let it go out of this radius and then it covers distance and station keep unassisted? Were they just topping off the tanks or they  really needed refueling , how much fuel it can consume during each outing as delays can really mess up recovery operation if it needs to be refueled frequently.. we know how much those thrusters can consume, how much those two generators may burn....etc etc

I can probably answer one of those:
The plan was to weld plates over the landing pads to secure them to the deck.
Now if they are to tie down the stage from higher up, they can simply weld plates with U-bolts or shackles to the deck and attach cables at some pre-determined attach point. but I doubt that's needed.

There might be pre-existing tie-down points if they plan to tie the stage down before starting welding.  Welding might be pretty quick, but tying down is even quicker, and they might want the stage as secure as possible before starting the welds.


Doubtful, unless they are recessed. You wouldn't want anything that would cause the landing feet to get caught up during touchdown. It doesn't take long to weld keepers over the feet.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/11/2015 04:36 AM
Hey,

http://www.vesselfinder.com/?mmsi=367017460

seems to be from a few hours ago - am I reading it right?

EDIT: from the coordinates, it was about 120 miles out at the time, should be less than 100 by now.

EDIT2: So if they'll continue at the current speed, they'll hit port early morning.  Please let there be someone with a camera on the HWY 295 bridge.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: dorkmo on 01/11/2015 04:47 AM

Sounds like the hydraulic system was likely made inoperable on one or two of the thrusters. Which would mean they'd be stuck in the down position. I guess they'll have to spend some time dealing with that. Might just connect new hyd hoses to quest temp and fold them up?

If you're taking this from Musk's tweet about running out of hydraulic fluid, he was referring to hydraulic fluid on the stage, not on the ASDS.

Was talking about asds, there are a lot of thrusters and hydraulic systems on everything now lol. Really interesting to learn about the grid fin hydraulics. Looks like from the vessel finder that they weren't delayed much.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: dorkmo on 01/11/2015 04:56 AM
Hey,

http://www.vesselfinder.com/?mmsi=367017460

seems to be from a few hours ago - am I reading it right?

EDIT: from the coordinates, it was about 120 miles out at the time, should be less than 100 by now.

EDIT2: So if they'll continue at the current speed, they'll hit port early morning.  Please let there be someone with a camera on the HWY 295 bridge.

Interesting they are going 6-7 knots. Just a little faster than before.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/11/2015 05:05 AM
Hey,

http://www.vesselfinder.com/?mmsi=367017460

seems to be from a few hours ago - am I reading it right?

EDIT: from the coordinates, it was about 120 miles out at the time, should be less than 100 by now.

EDIT2: So if they'll continue at the current speed, they'll hit port early morning.  Please let there be someone with a camera on the HWY 295 bridge.

Interesting they are going 6-7 knots. Just a little faster than before.

Less fuel on board, and some extra rocket pieces.   ... and prevailing currents might play a tiny role :)

Any takers on guessing what rocket pieces are on board?

0-9 engines, plumbing, octaweb, tanks?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: ChrisWilson68 on 01/11/2015 05:14 AM
Any takers on guessing what rocket pieces are on board?

0-9 engines, plumbing, octaweb, tanks?

I'll guess it's 9 engines, all the plumbing, the octaweb, etc. -- all crumpled up but more-or-less everything present.  70%
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/11/2015 05:17 AM
I'll throw my guess in then...

Because of the loss of the grid fins, the divert maneuver had to be very aggressive.  The rocket touched down with a horizontal velocity component, and at an angle (trying to stop), and skidded off.  Very little was salvaged.

So hope to be wrong.

EDIT:  Btw, in the profile picture for Elsbeth III on Vessel Finder, it is pushing the ASDS, either in the river or very near shore.

A) Cool that they updated the picture
B) Pushing ?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cscott on 01/11/2015 05:25 AM
If it hit the barge at all, I'm guessing it hit it pretty much dead center.  And then tipped/pancaked.  So I don't see the heavy engines going anywhere.  I'm guessing there are nine engines, octoweb, and the heavy stuff, but little structure above that: too light, doesn't float well, melts in a fire, blows off the platform before the crew arrives.

All also wager that there's a dark soot mark touching the center and extending from there in the direction of travel.  I don't know exactly what direction that is, but since we're calling in our wild guesses, I'll say orthogonal to the ASDS, that is, across the barge the narrow way.

No significant damage to the equipment containers, but exterior hoses, wires and antennas have been baked/burned.   But no dents.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: ChrisWilson68 on 01/11/2015 05:26 AM
I'll throw my guess in then...

Because of the loss of the grid fins, the divert maneuver had to be very aggressive.  The rocket touched down with a horizontal velocity component, and at an angle (trying to stop), and skidded off.  Very little was salvaged.

So hope to be wrong.

I think the control system was meant to use the grid fins all the way down.  I don't think it had a mode where it realized the fins weren't working and switched to gimbaling of the M1D and/or cold gas thrusters.  I think when the grid fins were lost, the rocket became uncontrollable.  Perhaps the engine even switched off.

I think if it had switched to a non-fin control mechanism, it very likely either would have missed the barge entirely or landed safely.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Jdeshetler on 01/11/2015 05:32 AM
At this pace, the ship should arrive at the St. Johns River around 6 to 7pm in the evening.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/11/2015 05:35 AM
I'll throw my guess in then...

Because of the loss of the grid fins, the divert maneuver had to be very aggressive.  The rocket touched down with a horizontal velocity component, and at an angle (trying to stop), and skidded off.  Very little was salvaged.

So hope to be wrong.

I think the control system was meant to use the grid fins all the way down.  I don't think it had a mode where it realized the fins weren't working and switched to gimbaling of the M1D and/or cold gas thrusters.  I think when the grid fins were lost, the rocket became uncontrollable.  Perhaps the engine even switched off.

I think if it had switched to a non-fin control mechanism, it very likely either would have missed the barge entirely or landed safely.

The grid fins lose authority as it slows down.  The final maneuver has to be GH-style, using the engine.

Also, if the good lord* gave you both hands and feet (control mechanisms on both ends of the rocket), you'd be pretty impertinent to shrug one of them off just because you've got the other

*  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/11/2015 05:38 AM
At this pace, the ship should arrive at the St. Johns River around 6 to 7pm in the evening.

IIANM:

It was 01:06 UTC, not EST. 

110 miles at 7 MPH is 15 hours, so 16:00 UTC, which is 11:00 EST.

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/11/2015 05:38 AM
Go quest ( last updated loc Jan 11, 2015 06:26 UTC )

~60km off inlet @ 8.2 Kn
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: ChrisWilson68 on 01/11/2015 05:42 AM
I'll throw my guess in then...

Because of the loss of the grid fins, the divert maneuver had to be very aggressive.  The rocket touched down with a horizontal velocity component, and at an angle (trying to stop), and skidded off.  Very little was salvaged.

So hope to be wrong.

I think the control system was meant to use the grid fins all the way down.  I don't think it had a mode where it realized the fins weren't working and switched to gimbaling of the M1D and/or cold gas thrusters.  I think when the grid fins were lost, the rocket became uncontrollable.  Perhaps the engine even switched off.

I think if it had switched to a non-fin control mechanism, it very likely either would have missed the barge entirely or landed safely.

The grid fins lose authority as it slows down.  The final maneuver has to be GH-style, using the engine.

Also, if the good lord gave you both hands and feet (control mechanisms on both ends of the rocket), you'd be pretty impertinent to shrug one of them off just because you've got the other :)

I never said it was meant to use only the grid fins.  But if the control system is expecting the grid fins to have some effect and they are not having that effect, it needs a mode where it can stop using them or else it will go out of control.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: ChrisWilson68 on 01/11/2015 05:43 AM
I think the McGregor flight with grid fins demonstrates the grid fins continue to have some effect all the way to landing.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/11/2015 05:46 AM
I think the McGregor flight with grid fins demonstrates the grid fins continue to have some effect all the way to landing.

It demonstrated that they moved them...  what effect it had is not known.

Well, it is known (zero at the end) but not evidenced by the video.  The control system can knock itself out moving them towards the end, it makes no difference. If they have an effect at a few m/s, then they are too large, and should be made smaller to survive at 1000 m/s.  But don't worry, they don't, and they aren't....

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Jdeshetler on 01/11/2015 05:59 AM
At this pace, the ship should arrive at the St. Johns River around 6 to 7pm in the evening.

IIANM:

It was 01:06 UTC, not EST. 

110 miles at 7 MPH is 15 hours, so 16:00 UTC, which is 11:00 EST.

Well, in this case, this is a perfect opportunity to take some high quality photos or 4K videos as the ship with no wake speed pass under the bridge under very favorable lighting condition.....
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/11/2015 06:01 AM
I'll throw my guess in then...

Because of the loss of the grid fins, the divert maneuver had to be very aggressive.  The rocket touched down with a horizontal velocity component, and at an angle (trying to stop), and skidded off.  Very little was salvaged.

So hope to be wrong.

I think the control system was meant to use the grid fins all the way down.  I don't think it had a mode where it realized the fins weren't working and switched to gimbaling of the M1D and/or cold gas thrusters.  I think when the grid fins were lost, the rocket became uncontrollable.  Perhaps the engine even switched off.

I think if it had switched to a non-fin control mechanism, it very likely either would have missed the barge entirely or landed safely.

The grid fins lose authority as it slows down.  The final maneuver has to be GH-style, using the engine.

Also, if the good lord gave you both hands and feet (control mechanisms on both ends of the rocket), you'd be pretty impertinent to shrug one of them off just because you've got the other :)

I never said it was meant to use only the grid fins.  But if the control system is expecting the grid fins to have some effect and they are not having that effect, it needs a mode where it can stop using them or else it will go out of control.

This gets really really complicated.  I only know simple linear control, and even that is shaky.  But:

Take for example a modern jet fighter, which is an unstable platform.  This means the control system has to have an intimate knowledge of the physics model to control the airplane.  And still, these planes continue to fly even after sustaining damage (like losing half of a stabilizer or control surface on one side).  Which means the control system somehow figures out the new model, in real time, based on the response of the airplane.

I don't know how advanced the F9 system is, but in principle it could be made to fly right after losing the fins even without an explicit mode change.  However, an explicit mode change will make for better flying.

Since IMO the grid fins are practically ineffective towards the end, the system is already expecting them to disappear, so it's ok.  But if the rocket is still 100 m to the side and suddenly it has to do a really steep gimbal-based divert instead of a saner gimbal+fin divert, then it might not be able to stop and right itself on time, and will either still have a horizontal speed component, or still be at an angle.

My thinking is that if it were in the right horizontal position, then loss of the fins would not be an issue, and it would land just like any GH to date.


EDIT: I'm rooting for you, btw.  Nothing will make me happier than seeing a crumpled rocket on the deck tomorrow morning....
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: SoulWager on 01/11/2015 06:07 AM
I think we'll see 3-5 intact engines, one or two intact landing legs, and perhaps some intact cameras.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: CJ on 01/11/2015 06:13 AM
Any news on whether ASDS will be coming back to JAX? If it is, it'll probably be in company of Go Quest? If so, expect it soon, because Go Quest is about 30 miles from JAX, inbound. (Per http://www.vesselfinder.com/)

EDIT: Go Quest nearing the 12 mile limit. Elzbeth III about 45 miles out, inbound at 6.7 kt.

Looks to me like the good ship S.S. ASDS Notabarge is coming into Jacksonville, and should be coming in just after dawn.   

 
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: MP99 on 01/11/2015 09:22 AM
I'll throw my guess in then...

Because of the loss of the grid fins, the divert maneuver had to be very aggressive.  The rocket touched down with a horizontal velocity component, and at an angle (trying to stop), and skidded off.  Very little was salvaged.

So hope to be wrong.

I think the control system was meant to use the grid fins all the way down.  I don't think it had a mode where it realized the fins weren't working and switched to gimbaling of the M1D and/or cold gas thrusters.  I think when the grid fins were lost, the rocket became uncontrollable.  Perhaps the engine even switched off.

I think if it had switched to a non-fin control mechanism, it very likely either would have missed the barge entirely or landed safely.

I would guess the opposite:-

The software has an aerodynamic model of the core, including the position of grid fins, and of the impact of all its control mechanisms (grid fins, cold gas thrusters, Merlin TVC). If any one or more fins fails, other control mechanisms probably deploy to compensate as much as possible.

Cheers, Martin

Edit: OK, basically repeating meekGee's comment.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: NovaSilisko on 01/11/2015 09:28 AM
I don't expect there to be any debris left on the barge personally - I imagine they would've plucked the remains off of it and brought it onto one of the support ships. I'm wondering if there will even be any scorches as well. Ocean spray might've washed them off by now. However, I do expect the paint to be in pretty rough shape, and there to be very noticeable damage to the support equipment on deck (ie, several items have been sent to davy jones' locker)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: MP99 on 01/11/2015 09:42 AM
It'd be much easier to accentuate the positive if so many people weren't trying to eliminate the negative. "Look at how far we've come" should always be tempered with how far there is still to go.

SpaceX's strategy (and it's a great one) is to incorporate tests into customer flights without impacting the customer’s payload.

This allows them to "build a little, test a little", and the nice aspect of this is that once a test passes you have more confidence that you truly understand that it passed for the reasons you thought it would. Good data from half a dozen incremental tests trumps amazing data or results from one test every time. Especially if your intention is to develop a "good enough to work" landing system into something better, per the Silicon Valley way.

Cheers, Martin
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: ChrisWilson68 on 01/11/2015 09:44 AM
I don't expect there to be any debris left on the barge personally - I imagine they would've plucked the remains off of it and brought it onto one of the support ships.

If there are big pieces, it would be a pain moving them from the pitching deck of one vessel to the pitching deck of another at sea.  And I don't see what the point would be.  Why not leave them on the ASDS deck?

Smaller items, sure, if they could be easily picked up, they would be moved inside and secured.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: hrissan on 01/11/2015 10:01 AM
I'll throw my guess in then...

Because of the loss of the grid fins, the divert maneuver had to be very aggressive.  The rocket touched down with a horizontal velocity component, and at an angle (trying to stop), and skidded off.  Very little was salvaged.

So hope to be wrong.

I think the control system was meant to use the grid fins all the way down.  I don't think it had a mode where it realized the fins weren't working and switched to gimbaling of the M1D and/or cold gas thrusters.  I think when the grid fins were lost, the rocket became uncontrollable.  Perhaps the engine even switched off.

I think if it had switched to a non-fin control mechanism, it very likely either would have missed the barge entirely or landed safely.

I would guess the opposite:-

The software has an aerodynamic model of the core, including the position of grid fins, and of the impact of all its control mechanisms (grid fins, cold gas thrusters, Merlin TVC). If any one or more fins fails, other control mechanisms probably deploy to compensate as much as possible.

Cheers, Martin

Edit: OK, basically repeating meekGee's comment.
Well, the control mechanism definetely has a model of the stage with fins, but what happens if 1 fin is stuck, and the computer even has no idea it happened?

The computer sees some additional unexpected force acting on the stage, and moves the fins and/or engines and thrusters to compensate that force.

So even without explicit programming for the stuck fin the stage should still be able to maneuver with what's left.

But if the computer knows the fin(s) stuck, it may fly better because it will not expect control authority from stuck fins and look for a solution without them.

Example: in columbia disaster there was assymetry of drag due to slow disintegration of the wing, so the rudder was steered further and further from the center positin, and when it reached the limit the OMS thrusters were turned on stabilising the craft several instants longer.

Falcon9 first stage may work the same, the thrusters are the "last resort" mechanism engaged after the fins reached the limit.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: NovaSilisko on 01/11/2015 10:10 AM
I don't expect there to be any debris left on the barge personally - I imagine they would've plucked the remains off of it and brought it onto one of the support ships.

If there are big pieces, it would be a pain moving them from the pitching deck of one vessel to the pitching deck of another at sea.  And I don't see what the point would be.  Why not leave them on the ASDS deck?

Smaller items, sure, if they could be easily picked up, they would be moved inside and secured.

Should've added I don't expect many large pieces - maybe an engine or two, but not the whole octaweb for instance.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: MP99 on 01/11/2015 10:37 AM


I'll throw my guess in then...

Because of the loss of the grid fins, the divert maneuver had to be very aggressive.  The rocket touched down with a horizontal velocity component, and at an angle (trying to stop), and skidded off.  Very little was salvaged.

So hope to be wrong.

I think the control system was meant to use the grid fins all the way down.  I don't think it had a mode where it realized the fins weren't working and switched to gimbaling of the M1D and/or cold gas thrusters.  I think when the grid fins were lost, the rocket became uncontrollable.  Perhaps the engine even switched off.

I think if it had switched to a non-fin control mechanism, it very likely either would have missed the barge entirely or landed safely.

I would guess the opposite:-

The software has an aerodynamic model of the core, including the position of grid fins, and of the impact of all its control mechanisms (grid fins, cold gas thrusters, Merlin TVC). If any one or more fins fails, other control mechanisms probably deploy to compensate as much as possible.

Cheers, Martin

Edit: OK, basically repeating meekGee's comment.
Well, the control mechanism definetely has a model of the stage with fins, but what happens if 1 fin is stuck, and the computer even has no idea it happened?

Re rest of your post - yup that's what I meant.

Re the above - I'd expect the grid fins to have instrumentation to report their angles back to the flight computer, so I'd think the control loop knows the grid fin status (and that it failed to move when instructed).

That will make it easier to respond to the failure. It doesn't have to wait until the vehicle attitude deviates, analyse the issue, then correct. It can anticipate how the attitude will be disturbed, and react accordingly.

Cheers, Martin
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: SoulWager on 01/11/2015 10:51 AM
I don't expect there to be any debris left on the barge personally - I imagine they would've plucked the remains off of it and brought it onto one of the support ships.

If there are big pieces, it would be a pain moving them from the pitching deck of one vessel to the pitching deck of another at sea.  And I don't see what the point would be.  Why not leave them on the ASDS deck?

Smaller items, sure, if they could be easily picked up, they would be moved inside and secured.

Should've added I don't expect many large pieces - maybe an engine or two, but not the whole octaweb for instance.
I think the engines and octoweb are very likely on the ASDS, because it's a heavy part of the rocket designed to take a lot of force in flight. Sure, it will be damaged/bent/crumpled, but most of it should be in one piece.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Hauerg on 01/11/2015 11:05 AM
Somehow I expect no large pieces like engines returned.
Having major pieces of the busness end of the rocket would be great, though.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: sghill on 01/11/2015 12:40 PM
Go Quest is home. Elbeth III should be in the channel in a couple of hours.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Eer on 01/11/2015 02:07 PM
Elsbeth III is 10 miles out from the mouth of the river, doing 7 knots towards port.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Will on 01/11/2015 02:19 PM
I think we'll see 3-5 intact engines, one or two intact landing legs, and perhaps some intact cameras.

I think we'll see tarpaulins over things.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: kevinof on 01/11/2015 02:25 PM
Yeah. Doubt they will want to show any crumpled bits and I don't blame them. The way some of the mainstream media have been reporting this, the entire mission has been a failure!

Anywhere there's always next month's flight. Maybe Elon Musk will get to light his cigar then.

I think we'll see 3-5 intact engines, one or two intact landing legs, and perhaps some intact cameras.

I think we'll see tarpaulins over things.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Pelorat on 01/11/2015 02:57 PM
Still, the amount of tarp could give an indication of how much of the rocket is on the barge still.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cartman on 01/11/2015 03:02 PM
If there is anybody here that lives in Jacksonville, now is the time to go to Dames Point Bridge, the ASDS should be there in an hour or maybe two, though I am not very sure it has pedestrian access.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/11/2015 03:04 PM
Anyone have a link to the Mayport (?) marina webcams that captured the video someone posted earlier of the barge heading out to sea? That was the closest, clearest video we've seen yet of the barge on the river.

Ohsin posted some pics from it here:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=36326.msg1312202#msg1312202

Otherwise, it's a wait until tomorrow morning when Fascination docks.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/11/2015 03:06 PM
So many questions..
Lightning protection? Is there any? , Are 'tie downs' ballast tank hatches?, What is the exclusion area around ASDS? If its 10miles do they let it go out of this radius and then it covers distance and station keep unassisted? Were they just topping off the tanks or they  really needed refueling , how much fuel it can consume during each outing as delays can really mess up recovery operation if it needs to be refueled frequently.. we know how much those thrusters can consume, how much those two generators may burn....etc etc

I can probably answer one of those:
The plan was to weld plates over the landing pads to secure them to the deck.
Now if they are to tie down the stage from higher up, they can simply weld plates with U-bolts or shackles to the deck and attach cables at some pre-determined attach point. but I doubt that's needed.

There might be pre-existing tie-down points if they plan to tie the stage down before starting welding.  Welding might be pretty quick, but tying down is even quicker, and they might want the stage as secure as possible before starting the welds.


Doubtful, unless they are recessed. You wouldn't want anything that would cause the landing feet to get caught up during touchdown. It doesn't take long to weld keepers over the feet.

Tie downs are mostly flush with surface.. there are already plenty of bumps on deck anyways hence the speculation of tiedowns/manhole hatches. I hope some people will try to get a top down shot at barge from Dames Point Bridge. ElsbethIII ~8km from jetties may be it'll do its dance to summon Mcallister

http://thesurfersview.com/cams/florida-marina/mayport.php    (/u/Shrubit found this :))
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Barrie on 01/11/2015 03:14 PM
The Gregg McAllister is already heading purposefully downriver
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/11/2015 03:25 PM


may be it'll do its dance to summon Mcallister

Nice...

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: LunarFlyBy on 01/11/2015 03:32 PM
Jean Ribault (passenger ship) is heading downriver past Mayport at ~ 1kt
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/11/2015 03:38 PM
Gregg just went past the camera  :)

Jean Ribault (passenger ship) is heading downriver past Mayport at ~ 1kt

It is a ferry, it just goes to and fro across river.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Req on 01/11/2015 03:39 PM
Gregg McAllister heading out to meet Elsbeth III and the ASDS:
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: LunarFlyBy on 01/11/2015 03:46 PM
Should be a good view from here in about an hour:

Mayport Village Cam
This cam is hosted by the Safe Harbor Seafood Market & Restaurant in historical Mayport Village. Straight from their boats to your plate you’ll be served the best seafood meal possible. It doesn’t get better than this! Click to visit their web site or call them at 904.246.4911.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: LunarFlyBy on 01/11/2015 04:11 PM
The dance seems to be underway.

Does the Gregg McAllister pull the ASDS in tandem with the Ellsbeth III?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/11/2015 04:12 PM
No, Gregg pushes.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: LunarFlyBy on 01/11/2015 04:16 PM
Funnyy--Looks like the Gregg Mcallister is leading the Ellsbeth III upriver
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/11/2015 04:16 PM
Should be a good view from here in about an hour:

Mayport Village Cam
This cam is hosted by the Safe Harbor Seafood Market & Restaurant in historical Mayport Village. Straight from their boats to your plate you’ll be served the best seafood meal possible. It doesn’t get better than this! Click to visit their web site or call them at 904.246.4911.

Webcam link is

myfloridafishing.com/live-cam-2/ (http://myfloridafishing.com/live-cam-2/)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: speedevil on 01/11/2015 04:17 PM
Funnyy--Looks like the Gregg Mcallister is leading the Ellsbeth III upriver

They are going backwards - in respect to the fallen rocket.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/11/2015 04:17 PM
Funnyy--Looks like the Gregg Mcallister is leading the Ellsbeth III upriver

No, MarineTraffic shows Gregg behind.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/11/2015 04:18 PM
Should be a good view from here in about an hour:

Mayport Village Cam
This cam is hosted by the Safe Harbor Seafood Market & Restaurant in historical Mayport Village. Straight from their boats to your plate you’ll be served the best seafood meal possible. It doesn’t get better than this! Click to visit their web site or call them at 904.246.4911.

I might be in Jacksonville next week, I'll keep this in mind :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: eriblo on 01/11/2015 04:20 PM
Funnyy--Looks like the Gregg Mcallister is leading the Ellsbeth III upriver

No, MarineTraffic shows Gregg behind.

Check the time stamps, their positions are not updated simultaneously.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/11/2015 04:21 PM
Funnyy--Looks like the Gregg Mcallister is leading the Ellsbeth III upriver

No, MarineTraffic shows Gregg behind.

That was my impression too.

However, in Elsbeth III's profile page on Marine Traffic, she is shown pushing the ASDS.

I guess they've known each other for longer than we suspect...  (there's the entire time ASDS was being built, and then the trip to Jacksonville)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: speedevil on 01/11/2015 04:23 PM
No, MarineTraffic shows Gregg behind.

As a more serious answer - both vessels are going at about 5 knots.

They do the length of the barge in well under a minute - and if you don't get position updates at lots more than this, they bounce around looking like one or the other is in front.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/11/2015 04:25 PM
Funnyy--Looks like the Gregg Mcallister is leading the Ellsbeth III upriver

No, MarineTraffic shows Gregg behind.

That was my impression too.

However, in Elsbeth III's profile page on Marine Traffic, she is shown pushing the ASDS.

I guess they've known each other for longer than we suspect...  (there's the entire time ASDS was being built, and then the trip to Jacksonville)

On the outbound trip, EIII towed and Gregg pushed.

Should be in view of Mayport webcam in a few minutes.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/11/2015 04:30 PM
It makes the most sense that EIII is always towing, and GM is assisting from behind. 

It's possible that GM, being a local pilot, is in command - and has the freedom to disengage and push from other directions if necessary.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Mongo62 on 01/11/2015 04:33 PM
Now in sight here (http://myfloridafishing.com/live-cam-2/).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cartman on 01/11/2015 04:33 PM
that constant camera angle change is maddening, it just managed to avoid a good zoomed in view of BargeX
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Jdeshetler on 01/11/2015 04:36 PM
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: OSE on 01/11/2015 04:37 PM
Is it just me or do the yellow containers on the barge look a little black at the top? (on the aft end that is)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/11/2015 04:38 PM
Oh my god can you believe that timing!! Well I hope those two girls got a better shot  :-/
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/11/2015 04:38 PM
Well, show's over. Check back in tomorrow morning for Fascination webcam.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/11/2015 04:39 PM
What's the next camera?

And is there anyone on the bridge?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/11/2015 04:40 PM
What's the next camera?

And is there anyone on the bridge?

http://dataservices.namapmterminals.com/apmt/cameras2.aspx?address1=http://10.1.197.151/axis-cgi/jpg/image.cgi?resolution=352x288&address2=http://10.1.197.153/axis-cgi/jpg/image.cgi?resolution=352x288
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Req on 01/11/2015 04:40 PM
I think this image has a bit more detail than the one above:

Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Barrie on 01/11/2015 04:41 PM
It makes the most sense that EIII is always towing, and GM is assisting from behind. 

It's possible that GM, being a local pilot, is in command - and has the freedom to disengage and push from other directions if necessary.

Yes, I always assumed the GM was basically steering the barge, rather than just there to push.  I guess they can't use the thruster pods in the river.

Anyway, deck looked empty to me.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/11/2015 04:43 PM
There are traffic cams on bridge they update very slow.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Barrie on 01/11/2015 04:46 PM
Oh my god can you believe that timing!! Well I hope those two girls got a better shot  :-/

They obviously knew it was coming, so hopefully they hang out here or r*dd*t and their pics will end up online
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: rubtest on 01/11/2015 04:46 PM
actually the barge seems quite unchanged , it means no KAA BOOM
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: samoo on 01/11/2015 04:49 PM
one more cam to go at Dames Point Bridge http://tmp.hejnoah.com/webcam_dl/dames_point_bridge_jaxport/
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: fast on 01/11/2015 04:57 PM
It makes the most sense that EIII is always towing, and GM is assisting from behind. 

It's possible that GM, being a local pilot, is in command - and has the freedom to disengage and push from other directions if necessary.

Yes, I always assumed the GM was basically steering the barge, rather than just there to push.  I guess they can't use the thruster pods in the river.

Anyway, deck looked empty to me.

yeah, there no big items visible, possibly stage slided down
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/11/2015 04:59 PM
We should watch for the condition of the railing.  If the rocket hit with side velocity and slid/tumbled off, then the railing will be visibly damaged.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/11/2015 05:03 PM
http://www.fl511.com/CameraImage.ashx?networkID=District+2&cameraID=487

http://www.fl511.com/CameraImage.ashx?networkID=District+2&cameraID=486

http://www.fl511.com/CameraImage.ashx?networkID=District+2&cameraID=485

No idea how often they update.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Jdeshetler on 01/11/2015 05:12 PM
Here it is if that helps...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: mr. mark on 01/11/2015 05:13 PM
We should watch for the condition of the railing.  If the rocket hit with side velocity and slid/tumbled off, then the railing will be visibly damaged.
Looking at the last seconds of flight, the vehicle orientation looks off. Possibly due to a hydraulics out. Possibly accounting for a skid. We'll have to see. Nice though that this most likely dissproves a massive explosion.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: PhilW on 01/11/2015 05:16 PM
Appears there is something is on the deck.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Jdeshetler on 01/11/2015 05:19 PM
Animated GIF didn't work so here is a clip of video.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: drsnooker on 01/11/2015 05:24 PM
from apm terminals
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/11/2015 05:25 PM
We should watch for the condition of the railing.  If the rocket hit with side velocity and slid/tumbled off, then the railing will be visibly damaged.
Looking at the last seconds of flight, the vehicle orientation looks off. Possibly due to a hydraulics out. Possibly accounting for a skid. We'll have to see. Nice though that this most likely dissproves a massive explosion.

This image is from the edge of the atmosphere, at approx T+7m, during the re-entry burn.  It's an amazing image IMO.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/11/2015 05:26 PM
APM trmnl
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: drsnooker on 01/11/2015 05:30 PM
From dames point bridge
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: mr. mark on 01/11/2015 05:31 PM
Good to know. I can only hope to get a view of the railing.   
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cartman on 01/11/2015 05:42 PM
Reports about some wreckage on the barge, we are quite hopeful there will be images in a short while.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/11/2015 05:46 PM
Reports about some wreckage on the barge, we are quite hopeful there will be images in a short while.

On APM terminal pic it does looks like something is on deck.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: rsnellenberger on 01/11/2015 05:49 PM
It makes the most sense that EIII is always towing, and GM is assisting from behind. 

It's possible that GM, being a local pilot, is in command - and has the freedom to disengage and push from other directions if necessary.

Yes, I always assumed the GM was basically steering the barge, rather than just there to push.  I guess they can't use the thruster pods in the river.

Anyway, deck looked empty to me.
If you've already eliminated hardware failure as a cause for the unsuccessful landing, what would be the value in bringing back the pieces?  It'll be simpler to just dispose of them at sea after taking some pictures -- with the added advantage that there won't be pictures of the barge coming into port with pieces of a "failure" (even though we know it wasn't).
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: somepitch on 01/11/2015 05:54 PM
It makes the most sense that EIII is always towing, and GM is assisting from behind. 

It's possible that GM, being a local pilot, is in command - and has the freedom to disengage and push from other directions if necessary.

Yes, I always assumed the GM was basically steering the barge, rather than just there to push.  I guess they can't use the thruster pods in the river.

Anyway, deck looked empty to me.
If you've already eliminated hardware failure as a cause for the unsuccessful landing, what would be the value in bringing back the pieces?  It'll be simpler to just dispose of them at sea after taking some pictures -- with the added advantage that there won't be pictures of the barge coming into port with pieces of a "failure" (even though we know it wasn't).

There would be valuable data to be obtained from the condition of the engines if you could recover them... they should be able to tell the difference between crash damage and operational wear during a teardown.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: ugordan on 01/11/2015 05:54 PM
If you've already eliminated hardware failure as a cause for the unsuccessful landing, what would be the value in bringing back the pieces?

Taking apart hardware that survived and which actually flew through an actual launch environment to check whether it held up as expected? You know, post-flight inspection for lessons learned, near-misses and potential other funnies in the data?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Henri on 01/11/2015 05:56 PM
Here is the video I captured from the webcam (the online player seems to playback at 360p only, but you can download the video to get the full resolution), hopefully it's useful to someone: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B23z_72hplPtMEp5X1ZsMnhfWDg/view?usp=sharing
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cartman on 01/11/2015 05:59 PM
Pics from the employees of Safe Harbor Seafood Market & Restaurant!
source http://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/2s1nfm/attention_all_jacksonvile_spacegeeks_the_asds_is/cnlns13
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cartman on 01/11/2015 06:03 PM
Screencap from above video
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: robertross on 01/11/2015 06:12 PM
So a diesel-powered hydraulic power unit for a Thrustmaster is toast, as is the cherry picker it looks like.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cartman on 01/11/2015 06:14 PM
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Bugfix on 01/11/2015 06:14 PM
The image is on http://i.imgur.com/1vgBUun.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/1vgBUun.jpg)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Henri on 01/11/2015 06:15 PM
Looks like they have got some pieces covered up on deck.

Amazing photos by /u/relevant__comment over on reddit:
http://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/2s1nfm/attention_all_jacksonvile_spacegeeks_the_asds_is/cnlm2am
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: robertross on 01/11/2015 06:16 PM


Check out the top of the yellow I-Beam that is in the foregound of the scorched white container! The top is bent down, indicating point of impact of some sort.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: somepitch on 01/11/2015 06:17 PM
From reddit /u/relevant__comment:

http://i.imgur.com/hmV0WsT.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/hmV0WsT.jpg)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Kabloona on 01/11/2015 06:17 PM
At far left, atop one of the containers you can see a white hemispherical VSAT antenna dome got knocked off.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cartman on 01/11/2015 06:18 PM
Some covered debris on the right lets hope they are engines
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: somepitch on 01/11/2015 06:20 PM
At far left, atop one of the containers you can see a white hemispherical VSAT antenna dome got knocked off.

That camera up there should have had a good view of the action!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cartman on 01/11/2015 06:23 PM
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/11/2015 06:24 PM
Looks like the water cannon is pointing the right way  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/11/2015 06:25 PM
Some damage at stern hull on sides.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: salpun on 01/11/2015 06:26 PM
With the location known, I wonder if a large section like the engines did go overboard will they send a recovery team out to get them?   
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/11/2015 06:27 PM
This is the stuff of sci-fi

A 100' first stage, legs extended, engine on, almost hovering, but losing the fight to land...  That would make a HELL of an action sequence...
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: symbios on 01/11/2015 06:34 PM
Think how boring this would be if SpaceX would have supplied all the answers. Now it reads like a live spy novell :D

Everyone and their dogs are running around trying to get photos.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: deadman719 on 01/11/2015 06:36 PM
With what appears to be impact damage on the top of the thruster hydraulic power unit and obvious fire damage, would it be a safe assumption that this is where the stage attempted to land?  The reason I think the damaged hydraulic roof shows signs of impact damage is because the way the center is collapsed and corners are angled upwards.

Deadman
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cartman on 01/11/2015 06:37 PM
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: drsnooker on 01/11/2015 06:39 PM
http://spaceflightnow.com/2015/01/11/photos-spacexs-rocket-landing-platform-back-in-port/
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Barrie on 01/11/2015 06:39 PM
It makes the most sense that EIII is always towing, and GM is assisting from behind. 

It's possible that GM, being a local pilot, is in command - and has the freedom to disengage and push from other directions if necessary.

Yes, I always assumed the GM was basically steering the barge, rather than just there to push.  I guess they can't use the thruster pods in the river.

Anyway, deck looked empty to me.
If you've already eliminated hardware failure as a cause for the unsuccessful landing, what would be the value in bringing back the pieces?  It'll be simpler to just dispose of them at sea after taking some pictures -- with the added advantage that there won't be pictures of the barge coming into port with pieces of a "failure" (even though we know it wasn't).

I expect bulky stuff like tankage would go over the side, but anything left of the engines, and maybe the interstage too, might be nice to have.  Do rocket bells make good crumple zones?

OTOH SpaceX may not want to get bogged down in forensics if they have such a good chance of recovering an intact stage next time.  I hope the ASDS can be ready in time - I work with machinery and tools with dents and dinks in them that can be happily ignored (and yes, some of them were my fault  :-[)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: rubtest on 01/11/2015 06:41 PM
 WoW

10 meter from success !!!!  ;D ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: meekGee on 01/11/2015 06:41 PM
The paint job is fine - it came down too low, trying to reach center-barge when it ran out of altitude.

If it hit the corner, than some pieces would have stayed above board, but most of the rocket would have tumbled out probably.  Maybe.  Just first impression.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: thebluemarble on 01/11/2015 06:42 PM
Now we can see how little of the first stage survived. And personally I wouldn't expect to see much more. There is probably no chance of recovering more pieces without some complex and expensive deep sea operations. Nevertheless, I'm glad they managed to recover something.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: edkyle99 on 01/11/2015 06:45 PM
WoW

10 meter from success !!!!  ;D ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: robertross on 01/11/2015 06:46 PM


Not much left of the stage judging by the volume of material under the tarps.

I have to wonder if they will errect blast shields at either end of the barge to protect the containers & equipment in the future?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: NovaSilisko on 01/11/2015 06:47 PM
I think there could easily be an engine under those tarps... we'll have to wait and see I guess.

I do wonder if the puddle in the middle of the deck represents a dent where the rocket impacted. If so, accuracy is certainly spot on. Alternatively, if it did smack right into the support equipment, my "Close to the edge, round by the corner" prediction was spot on :P
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Semmel on 01/11/2015 06:48 PM
Looks like it hit that GPS sensor in the corner dead on. Too bad it wasnt mounted at the X in the middle ;-)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: robertross on 01/11/2015 06:48 PM
I do wonder if the puddle in the middle of the deck represents a dent where the rocket impacted. If so, accuracy is certainly spot on.

My initial thought as well.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: the_other_Doug on 01/11/2015 06:49 PM
From the visible signs of damage, looks like much of the tankage was not recovered, and that the hit was to the far rght side of the barge from this picture's perspective.  Doesn't look like it will take long to repair the obvious damage, but of course we can't see everything (especially what's covered by the tarps).

I think the poll winner for location would be "hit the barge but not in the center".
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: JamesH on 01/11/2015 06:49 PM
The paint job is fine - it came down too low, trying to reach center-barge when it ran out of altitude.

If it hit the corner, than some pieces would have stayed above board, but most of the rocket would have tumbled out probably.  Maybe.  Just first impression.

This sounds like a good explanation for the dents in the side of the brown container. (http://spaceflightnow.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/asds_2.jpg)

Seriously impressive for a first attempt.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Rocket Science on 01/11/2015 06:50 PM
I think there could easily be an engine under those tarps... we'll have to wait and see I guess.

I do wonder if the puddle in the middle of the deck represents a dent where the rocket impacted. If so, accuracy is certainly spot on. Alternatively, if it did smack right into the support equipment, my "Close to the edge, round by the corner" prediction was spot on :P
That was my first impression as well and then it toppled over on to the equipment... Who knows??
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cscott on 01/11/2015 06:52 PM
Can someone superimpose a scale drawing of the falcon first stage on top of the top view of the barge?  If the stage did hit at the puddle and tip, would it have reached the containers on the far side?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cartman on 01/11/2015 06:55 PM
IMHO It doesn't look there is an engine there, the octaweb should have sunk as one unit. More probable these are parts of the interstage.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: salpun on 01/11/2015 06:56 PM
I do wonder if the puddle in the middle of the deck represents a dent where the rocket impacted. If so, accuracy is certainly spot on.

My initial thought as well.

That puddle was there when it first showed up in Jacksonville. So we can stop guesses in that direction.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: drsnooker on 01/11/2015 06:56 PM
I'm hoping they helicoptered the octoweb off to an undisclosed location away from prying eyes and ITAR protection.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: hrissan on 01/11/2015 06:58 PM
Can someone superimpose a scale drawing of the falcon first stage on top of the top view of the barge?  If the stage did hit at the puddle and tip, would it have reached the containers on the far side?
The paint on the deck is intact, so hardly this happened.

Though the yellow rail shows impact from the direction of the center of the barge, which is hard to explain...

May be Elon will tweet a video from descending first stage... :)
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: cscott on 01/11/2015 07:05 PM
Can someone superimpose a scale drawing of the falcon first stage on top of the top view of the barge?  If the stage did hit at the puddle and tip, would it have reached the containers on the far side?
The paint on the deck is intact, so hardly this happened.

Though the yellow rail shows impact from the direction of the center of the barge, which is hard to explain...

I didn't mean to be so specific about my scenario.  I was asking for the diagram so that I could evaluate scenarios *similar to* this.   If the stage caught a leg going over the container side and tipped, how far into the barge would the interstage end up?  Given that part of the stage was above the visibly damaged containers, what are the possible orientations that would have put part of the stage there?
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: Ohsin on 01/11/2015 07:08 PM
Center dent aligns!
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: kevinof on 01/11/2015 07:11 PM
My thoughts on the photos and the damage at the stern end (?) was that the stage over shot the main deck, hit the equipment bays and the cherry picker and then went boom, leaving some bits behind and the rest over the side. 

hat's off to Space X though. Damn fine first attempt.
Title: Re: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Discussion Thread 2
Post by: mme</