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International Space Flight (ESA, Russia, China and others) => Chinese Launchers => Topic started by: Galactic Penguin SST on 03/03/2014 01:50 AM

Title: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 03/03/2014 01:50 AM
FEATURE ARTICLE - By Rui C. Barbosa:

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2014/10/china-lunar-sample-return-test-mission/


===


As reported earlier (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=30898.msg1026258#msg1026258), to test out the return module to be used for the Chang'e 5 lunar sample return mission at high re-entry velocity, a Chang'e 5 precursor mission will be flown before the real mission, with the spacecraft being something like Chang'e 2 topped by the CE-5 return module. This apparently has been confirmed to fly late this year - it will fly on a Zond/Apollo 13 type lunar free-return orbit and loop behind the Moon once.

The launch vehicle for this is the Long March 3C/G2 (i.e. "Long March 3C/E") (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=23525.msg1106396#msg1106396) - which will be on its first flight.

Sources:
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2013-03/14/c_132232333.htm (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2013-03/14/c_132232333.htm)
http://news.xinhuanet.com/tech/2014-03/01/c_119562037.htm (http://news.xinhuanet.com/tech/2014-03/01/c_119562037.htm)
http://news.xinhuanet.com/politics/2014-03/03/c_119573118.htm (http://news.xinhuanet.com/politics/2014-03/03/c_119573118.htm)
Title: Re: Chang'e 5 precursor mission - CZ-3C/E - Late 2014
Post by: plutogno on 03/03/2014 10:12 AM
I am the only one who dreams about an extended mission "à la Stardust" for the CE-2 bus after it has released the return capsule?
Title: Re: Chang'e 5 precursor mission - CZ-3C/E - Late 2014
Post by: plutogno on 04/28/2014 06:51 PM
according to this interview, the demo mission may fly as soon as next June
http://www.chinanews.com/gn/2014/04-28/6114372.shtml
Title: Re: Chang'e 5 precursor mission - CZ-3C/E - Late 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 04/28/2014 11:44 PM
according to this interview, the demo mission may fly as soon as next June
http://www.chinanews.com/gn/2014/04-28/6114372.shtml

More like October according to a lecture by someone at the Shanghai Observatory (http://www.astron.ac.cn/bencandy-58-10618-1.htm) earlier this month. Apparently the landing site is at Inner Mongolia (Siziwang Banner) as that would be better for searching the capsule. There will be a few experiments on board the capsule to expose bacteria and plants to the BLEO radiation environment.
Title: Re: Chang'e 5 precursor mission - CZ-3C/E - October 2014
Post by: plutogno on 06/14/2014 11:47 AM
first picture of the CE-5 return capsule. looks like a scaled Shenzhou!
http://www.spacechina.com/n25/n144/n206/n133097/c709628/content.html
Title: Re: Chang'e 5 precursor mission - CZ-3C/E - October 2014
Post by: Stan Black on 06/14/2014 02:02 PM
first picture of the CE-5 return capsule. looks like a scaled Shenzhou!
http://www.spacechina.com/n25/n144/n206/n133097/c709628/content.html

Including two parachute covers? Looks like they are planning for the future of Shenzhou?
Title: Re: Chang'e 5 precursor mission - CZ-3C/E - October 2014
Post by: savuporo on 06/17/2014 09:09 PM
Blog post in spanish, Chrome/google translate translates pretty well :
http://danielmarin.naukas.com/2014/06/16/progresos-con-la-sonda-lunar-china-change-5/

Not much new, but the mission is nicknamed "Chang'e 2.5"
Title: Re: Chang'e 5 precursor mission - CZ-3C/E - October 2014
Post by: Satori on 06/17/2014 10:56 PM
Blog post in spanish, Chrome/google translate translates pretty well :
http://danielmarin.naukas.com/2014/06/16/progresos-con-la-sonda-lunar-china-change-5/

Not much new, but the mission is nicknamed "Chang'e 2.5"

Is this designation comes from spacechina.com or from Daniel Marin's blog?
Title: Re: Chang'e 5 precursor mission - CZ-3C/E - October 2014
Post by: savuporo on 06/17/2014 11:37 PM
Don't know, the exact phrase was :
(la sonda ha recibido el apodo Chang’e 2.5 por combinar elementos de las misiones Chang’e 2 y Chang’e 5) = (the probe has been nicknamed Chang'e 2.5 combine elements of Chang'e Chang'e 2 missions and 5)


Title: Re: Chang'e 5 precursor mission - CZ-3C/E - October 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 07/18/2014 02:14 PM
I'm seeing a rumor (http://bbs.9ifly.cn/forum.php?mod=redirect&goto=findpost&ptid=11379&pid=312534) of launching around October 24....  ;)
Title: Re: Chang'e 5 precursor mission - CZ-3C/E - October 2014
Post by: Satori on 08/09/2014 09:52 AM
Until the moment I haven't heard any official designation for this mission. Did I miss it?
Title: Re: Chang'e 5 precursor mission - CZ-3C/E - October 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 08/10/2014 08:34 AM
Until the moment I haven't heard any official designation for this mission. Did I miss it?

I have just asked (http://bbs.9ifly.cn/forum.php?mod=redirect&goto=findpost&ptid=11379&pid=316223&fromuid=19646) - one "insider" replied that it's "Chang'e 5-T1".  ;)

In other news, the spacecraft has arrived at Xichang by airplane today: http://news.xinhuanet.com/politics/2014-08/10/c_1112010572.htm (http://news.xinhuanet.com/politics/2014-08/10/c_1112010572.htm)  :)
Title: Re: Chang'e 5 precursor mission - CZ-3C/E - October 2014
Post by: Satori on 08/10/2014 10:09 AM
Same news in English, China to test recoverable moon orbiter (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2014-08/10/c_133546027.htm).

Image from the previous link by GP.
Title: Re: Chang'e 5 precursor mission - CZ-3C/E - October 2014
Post by: Skyrocket on 08/10/2014 10:51 AM
Same news in English, China to test recoverable moon orbiter (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2014-08/10/c_133546027.htm).

This news report calls the mission "Chang'e-4".

I've thought, "Change'4" was the designation of the back-up lunar rover for "Chang'e-3".
Title: Re: Chang'e 5 precursor mission - CZ-3C/E - October 2014
Post by: Satori on 08/10/2014 10:57 AM
Same news in English, China to test recoverable moon orbiter (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2014-08/10/c_133546027.htm).

This news report calls the mission "Chang'e-4".

I've thought, "Change'4" was the designation of the back-up lunar rover for "Chang'e-3".

Humm, I don't think so. The news says that Chang'e-4 will be adapted to verify the technologies for Chang'e-5, not to test the reentry. Also, the news says in error that "The plan is for the orbiter to be launched into lunar orbit and return to Earth at an escape velocity of 11.2 km per second." The test is to launch the precursor mission on a high-elliptical orbit and is not intended to orbit the Moon.
Title: Re: Chang'e 5 precursor mission - CZ-3C/E - October 2014
Post by: Moe Grills on 08/11/2014 07:32 PM
Same news in English, China to test recoverable moon orbiter (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2014-08/10/c_133546027.htm).

This news report calls the mission "Chang'e-4".

I've thought, "Change'4" was the designation of the back-up lunar rover for "Chang'e-3".

Humm, I don't think so. The news says that Chang'e-4 will be adapted to verify the technologies for Chang'e-5, not to test the reentry. Also, the news says in error that "The plan is for the orbiter to be launched into lunar orbit and return to Earth at an escape velocity of 11.2 km per second." The test is to launch the precursor mission on a high-elliptical orbit and is not intended to orbit the Moon.

A high-elliptical orbit can have an apogee of 400,000 km, like the Zond 4 spacecraft in March, 1968. And it can  reenter Earth's atmosphere at +11.0 km/sec, like that Zond.
Title: Re: Chang'e 5 precursor mission - CZ-3C/E - October 2014
Post by: Moe Grills on 08/11/2014 07:40 PM
  Am I the only one who sees the upcoming Chang'e 4 mission as an opportunity for Chinese space program engineers to test technology, flight profiles & hardware not only for robotic "sample return" missions, but for likely near-future crewed cislunar or libration-point DS missions involving evolved Shenzhou spacecraft?
Title: Re: Chang'e 5 precursor mission - CZ-3C/E - October 2014
Post by: Blackstar on 08/14/2014 02:47 PM
  Am I the only one who sees the upcoming Chang'e 4 mission as an opportunity for Chinese space program engineers to test technology, flight profiles & hardware not only for robotic "sample return" missions, but for likely near-future crewed cislunar or libration-point DS missions involving evolved Shenzhou spacecraft?

The whole program looks like it has clear engineering development purposes to help for eventual human spaceflight to the Moon, something I noted a little while back:

http://thespacereview.com/article/2544/1
Title: Re: Chang'e 5 precursor mission - CZ-3C/E - October 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 08/18/2014 05:28 PM
The spacecraft will carry a ham radio beacon built by LuxSpace: http://amsat-uk.org/2014/08/11/ham-radio-goes-around-the-moon/ (http://amsat-uk.org/2014/08/11/ham-radio-goes-around-the-moon/)
Title: Re: Chang'e 5 precursor mission - CZ-3C/E - October 2014
Post by: beidou on 08/29/2014 08:00 PM
(http://bbs.9ifly.cn/data/attachment/forum/201408/29/224125p4ssd3zpdxtti8et.jpg)
source:http://bbs.9ifly.cn/forum.php?mod=redirect&goto=findpost&ptid=11379&pid=319378&fromuid=24484
Title: Re: Chang'e 5 precursor mission - CZ-3C/E - October 2014
Post by: tesla on 08/29/2014 08:43 PM
one more link:  ;D

http://www.022net.com/2014/8-27/512050372945332.html
Title: Re: Chang'e 5 precursor mission - CZ-3C/E - October 2014
Post by: limen4 on 09/24/2014 06:01 AM
The philatelic association of China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation  6th academy in Xian (responsible for liquid rocket engine development and production) issued some designs for Chang’e-5 T1 commemorative envelopes. Some information  are remarkable:
- The launch vehicle is called CZ-3C/G2
- The planned landing area seems to be in the vicinity of Huofutan Township (活福滩乡; Postal Code 011809) only few Kilometers eastwards from the primary Shenzhou landing area in the vicinity of  Honggeer Banner (红格尔苏木 Postal Code 011819)
Title: Re: Chang'e 5 precursor mission - CZ-3C/E - October 2014
Post by: Skyrocket on 09/24/2014 06:30 AM
The philatelic association of China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation  6th academy in Xian (responsible for liquid rocket engine development and production) issued some designs for Chang’e-5 T1 commemorative envelopes. Some information  are remarkable:
- The launch vehicle is called CZ-3C/G2
- The planned landing area seems to be in the vicinity of Huofutan Township (活福滩乡; Postal Code 011809) only few Kilometers eastwards from the primary Shenzhou landing area in the vicinity of  Honggeer Banner (红格尔苏木 Postal Code 011819)

The spacecraft shown on the 2nd envelope is the Soviet Zond or L1 spacecraft: http://space.skyrocket.de/doc_sdat/zond_l1.htm
Title: Re: Chang'e 5 precursor mission - CZ-3C/E - October 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 09/24/2014 08:42 AM
I made some interesting discovery from LuxSpace's website (http://moon.luxspace.lu/), which has details of the ham radio transponder they are flying on the CZ-3C's 3rd stage:

Nominal mission duration: 196 hours (8.17 days)
Lunar fly-by: 97 hours after final orbit insertion (4.04 days) - one source claims the nominal time as 00:28 UTC on October 28
Perilune: ~13000 km from Moon surface
Distance of Moon from Earth at closest fly-by: ~373000 km

Also look at the graphs on this paper (http://goo.gl/wGawoz), it is interesting to see that the "orbital insertion" scenario shows a time of 20:04 UTC on October 23 - which seems legit for a launch out of Xichang as close to the lunar orbital plane as possible early on October 24 local time (I found this by using the Orbiter spaceflight simulator), so I guess the projected orbital insertion time won't be far away for that. Liftoff time would then be somewhere around 19:30 UTC I think? That leads to the closest flyby not far away from the time listed above (maybe 2-3 hours off) and return to Earth in Inner Mongolia around 23:00 UTC on October 31.

Does that sound legit?  ::)
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/E - Late October 2014
Post by: plutogno on 10/07/2014 08:12 AM
from the AMSAT ANS-278 bulletin http://amsat.org/pipermail/amsat-bb/2014-October/050932.html

Quote
Launched (sic!) is planned in a narrow window at 17:59:xx UTC on October 23 and flyby is to occur nominally on October 28 at 00:33 UTC
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/E - Late October 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 10/09/2014 02:44 PM
Some old news that I forgot to mention - for those who are asking where the rocket is, it has wrapped up all its pre-delivery tests by mid-September and has left for Xichang a few days later.

Unfortunately that's almost all the news this spacecraft has got in China since the last report. T-2 weeks....  :-X
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/E, Xichang - October 23, 2014
Post by: Satori on 10/14/2014 06:36 PM
The last stage of the CZ-3C launch will tale the 4M - Manfred Memorial Moon Mission.

On October 10 the LuxSpace launch preparation team successfully finalized the system functional tests and health checks of 4M before integration with the launch vehicle.

Integration of the payload took place on October 12 (the flight cable was integrated on October 10).
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/E, Xichang - October 23, 2014
Post by: Satori on 10/14/2014 06:40 PM
About the 4M mission...
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/E, Xichang - October 23, 2014
Post by: Satori on 10/16/2014 01:19 PM
Images of the CZ-3C/G2 launcher posted on 9ifly Chinese space forum and taken on October 16
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - October 23, 2014
Post by: Blackstar on 10/16/2014 03:49 PM
So what is the official name of this mission?
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - October 23, 2014
Post by: Hungry4info3 on 10/16/2014 05:12 PM
Chang'e 4M if this post (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=34162.msg1270496#msg1270496) is a good indication.
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - October 23, 2014
Post by: Satori on 10/16/2014 05:17 PM
Chang'e 4M if this post (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=34162.msg1270496#msg1270496) is a good indication.

No. '4M' is another mission that will be launched along with the Chang'e-5-T1 mission. 4M is the Manfred Memorial Moon Mission.
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - October 23, 2014
Post by: Blackstar on 10/16/2014 05:43 PM
The thread title is 5-T1, which I interpret as the first technology demonstrator for the CE-5 mission.

I'm just wondering if CE-4 is on the schedule in any way. A Space.com article refers to this mission as CE-4, which I'm pretty sure is wrong.
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - October 23, 2014
Post by: Satori on 10/16/2014 05:59 PM
The thread title is 5-T1, which I interpret as the first technology demonstrator for the CE-5 mission.

I'm just wondering if CE-4 is on the schedule in any way. A Space.com article refers to this mission as CE-4, which I'm pretty sure is wrong.

Chang'e-4 is being evaluated by the Chinese scientists at this time. The probe was developed as a back-up to Chang'e-3 and I suppose that the actual evaluation of the mission is related to the problems registered with the Yutu rover.

From http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2014-10/10/c_127083174.htm "China's ailing moon rover weakening: designer"

"Yu said the Chang'e-4 mission is under further analysis.

As the backup probe of Chang'e-3, Chang'e-4 will verify technology for Chang'e-5. The more sophisticated Chang'e-5/6 missions are aimed for tasks including unmanned sampling and returning to Earth.

China plans to launch an experimental recoverable moon orbiter before the end of this year to test technology vital for the success of Chang'e-5."
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - October 23, 2014
Post by: Blackstar on 10/16/2014 06:56 PM
Thanks. That is what I thought. Good to have it confirmed.

Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - October 23, 2014
Post by: Hungry4info3 on 10/16/2014 07:21 PM
No. '4M' is another mission that will be launched along with the Chang'e-5-T1 mission.
Thanks for the correction!
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - October 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 10/16/2014 07:49 PM
Thanks. That is what I thought. Good to have it confirmed.

Well I'm not surprised by the mix up in other places - the Chinese really keeps this one under the blanket (even by the China Lunar Exploration Program standards!) with literally almost no information even in Chinese - in fact we still have not seen any pictures/diagrams that show how does the spacecraft looks like!  :-X
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - October 23, 2014
Post by: Dalhousie on 10/16/2014 11:09 PM
The thread title is 5-T1, which I interpret as the first technology demonstrator for the CE-5 mission.

I'm just wondering if CE-4 is on the schedule in any way. A Space.com article refers to this mission as CE-4, which I'm pretty sure is wrong.

Chang'e-4 is being evaluated by the Chinese scientists at this time. The probe was developed as a back-up to Chang'e-3 and I suppose that the actual evaluation of the mission is related to the problems registered with the Yutu rover.

From http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2014-10/10/c_127083174.htm "China's ailing moon rover weakening: designer"

"Yu said the Chang'e-4 mission is under further analysis.

As the backup probe of Chang'e-3, Chang'e-4 will verify technology for Chang'e-5. The more sophisticated Chang'e-5/6 missions are aimed for tasks including unmanned sampling and returning to Earth."

That's quite ambiguous.  It could mean that Cahng'e 4 is being used as a ground simulator.

I really would like to see another lunar rover.
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - October 23, 2014
Post by: Blackstar on 10/16/2014 11:53 PM
So I conversed a bit with a reporter about this issue. He says that he has a source who has provided some information on the CE-4 mission (lander/rover) and will be writing an article about that soon.

So maybe we will learn something new soon.
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - October 23, 2014
Post by: plutogno on 10/20/2014 06:53 AM
more infors on CE-5T1 and the 4M experiment: http://amsat.org/pipermail/amsat-bb/2014-October/051011.html

Quote
4M (Manfred Memorial Moon Mission)

4M or Manfred Memorial Moon Mission is a mission dedicated to
LuxSpace founder, Prof. Manfred Fuchs, who died early this year. The
mission is a lunar flyby of a spacecraft that is attached to the last
stage of a Chinese Long March 3C rocket. The launch is scheduled for
October 23, 2014 at 1800 UTC.

Beijing plans to launch a Lunar spacecraft on a journey lasting 196
hours that should take it around the Moon before returning and re-
entering the Earth's atmosphere. It will carry a 14 kg payload known
as 4M-LXS which was developed at LuxSpace.

The 4M-LXS amateur radio payload will transmit on 145.980 MHz +/-
2.9kHz (-40°C to +125°C), Doppler max: -2200Hz, +1000Hz. The
continuous transmissions will start 4670s (77.8 minutes) after launch
(-0, +600s). Five successive 1 minute sequences are sent during the 5
minutes cycle. The digital mode JT65B will be used, this can be
decoded by radio amateurs using the free WJST software, there will
also be 'human readable' tone transmissions. See the transmit
sequence description on page 14 of 4M Mission: a Lunar FlyBy
experiment available at
https://ukamsat.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/lxs-4m-eme2014-a4-v3.pdf

During the lunar flyby, the range will be 399,636 km at the most and
the distance to the Moon will be between 12,000 and 24,000 km
depending on the final injection vector. The transmitter produces 1.5
watts to a simple Monopole antenna which should give a Signal to
Noise ratio ( S/N) comparable to amateur moon bounce (EME) signals at
the Earth's surface.

LuxSpace encourages radio amateurs around the world to receive the
transmissions and send in data. There will be a number of Experiments
and Contests with prizes to the winners in each experiment and
category. Details are given on page 19 of 4M Mission: a Lunar FlyBy
experiment.

A Java client will be made available to automatically send the WSJT
ALL.TXT and the decoded.txt files to a central database.

The orbiter is one of the test models for Beijing's new lunar probe
Chang'e-5, which will be tasked with landing on the moon, collecting
samples and returning to Earth. The launch is aimed at testing the
technologies that are vital for the success of Chang'e-5. The orbiter
will be launched into Lunar Transfer Orbit (LTO) then will perform a
flyby around the Moon and re-enter the Earth's atmosphere after 196
hours (9 days).

The orbiter arrived by air in Xichang, Sichuan on Sunday, August 10
and was then transported to the Xichang Satellite Launch Center.

The integration of the LX0OHB-4M amateur radio payload was completed
on Sunday night, October 12 and is now ready to launch

The onboard clock has been adjusted to start JT65B (145.980 MHz) at
the UTC minute +/-1 second. It is likely to drift during the mission,
and manual offset introduction will be required after a week or so.
The launch date is October 23 at 1800 UTC.

Beginning of transmission of 4M will start between 1917 UTC and 1927
UTC. Refer to the provided maps and animations links in the blog
section (see also older messages) to determine your visibility.
Alternatively, use the 'tracking' section where you can compute your
tracking elements by introducing your geographic coordinates. The
table can be copied/pasted into a text file. As the apparent movement
will be close (and closer) to the one one of the Moon, manual
pointing is easy but for the largest arrays.

The link budget is quite tight, but the first hours should give
comfortable signals. QSB is to be expected.

As JT65B is used: please remind those not yet too familiar with it
that the receiver must not be tuned during the transmission. A
dedicated webpage is being written to detail the procedure.

A dedicated java application is also available to automatically
transmit the decoded messages to the 4M website and ease the data
collection. (Thanks to LSE Space). Alternatively, you can also send
the decoded messages by eMail, sending the ALL.txt file.

For those not wishing to use JT65B, please record the signals
(11025s/s, 8or 16 bits, mono), taking care not to saturate the
recording and NO MP3 please.

SpectrumLab is an excellent choice, although some may wish to use
simpler recording software.

You can imagine that the team is quite eager to receive the first
reports, so, do not hesitate to mail immediately, send decoded
messages or even phone or text me at +352 661 678 986.

Our friends of IC CMalaga are also quite eager to receive the
results of their radiation dosimeter experiment.

Basic rules of the contest have been delineated in the blog section.
Complete rules will be published soon.

Stay tuned on our website or Facebook page.

The following is a tentative set of orbital elements that should
remain valid from the launch to at least up to the October 27 when
using usual classical and simple tracking software which does not
integrate Moon.

1 99999U          14298.79728009  .00000066  00000-0  00000-0 0 00006
2 99999 030.6553 295.6956 9746689 147.2577 071.9585 00.10600338000010

The following set is to be used after the flyby from October 28
onwards

1 99999U          14301.79728009  .00000000   00000-0 00000-0 0 00009
2 99999 049.9434 067.2017 6639865 045.9865 124.5019 00.06612018000010

Details on receiving signals from the Manfred Memorial Moon Mission
(4M) can be found at
http://moon.luxspace.lu/receiving-4m/

Ghislain Ruy LX2RG
Email ruy at luxspace.lu with "4M Amateur" in the subject

Manfred Memorial Moon Mission (4M) http://moon.luxspace.lu/
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/LuxSpaceSarl

The launch will be broadcast by CNTV/CCTV:
http://www.cntv.cn/ or
http://english.cntv.cn/ or
http://english.cntv.cn/live/p2p/index.shtml

Information animations and some JT65B test files at
http://tinyurl.com/ANS292-Animations

AMSAT-UK http://amsat-uk.org/
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/amsatuk
Twitter https://twitter.com/AMSAT_UK
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - October 23, 2014
Post by: BabaORileyUSA on 10/21/2014 02:15 PM
The TLEs provided in the 4M document (above) do NOT appear to be based on a launch at 23/1800Z October 2014 (unless there is a missing 3+-hour parking orbit).  Does anyone know what reference launch date and time these TLEs ARE referenced to?  The perigee of the initial translunar orbit is almost 4 hours after launch, and I'm thinking it should be about 10 to 20 minutes after launch....
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - October 23, 2014
Post by: Phillip Clark on 10/21/2014 03:03 PM
Am I being far too optimistic in hoping for live launch coverage?
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - October 23, 2014
Post by: plutogno on 10/21/2014 05:02 PM
the AMSAT link above says

Quote
The launch will be broadcast by CNTV/CCTV
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - October 23, 2014
Post by: satwatcher on 10/21/2014 05:50 PM
The TLEs provided in the 4M document (above) do NOT appear to be based on a launch at 23/1800Z October 2014 (unless there is a missing 3+-hour parking orbit).  Does anyone know what reference launch date and time these TLEs ARE referenced to?  The perigee of the initial translunar orbit is almost 4 hours after launch, and I'm thinking it should be about 10 to 20 minutes after launch....

The first elset reaches perigee around 18:30UT. Note that the perigee is well within the radius of the Earth. Perhaps the software you use does not know how to deal with this.
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - October 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 10/22/2014 05:14 AM
The Chinese finally officially acknowledges today that this little spacecraft is flying tomorrow (early Friday local time).....  ::)

More information coming soon.....

P.S. It looks like the earlier reported launch time of 17:59 UTC is the correct one.
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - October 23, 2014
Post by: plutogno on 10/22/2014 05:28 AM
The Chinese finally officially acknowledges today that this little spacecraft is flying tomorrow (early Friday local time).....  ::)


will we finally see what a mini Shenzhou-on-a-Chang'e-bus looks like?
and of course, it would be nice to know what happens to the bus after releasing that capsule...
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - October 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 10/22/2014 05:32 AM
The Chinese finally officially acknowledges today that this little spacecraft is flying tomorrow (early Friday local time).....  ::)


will we finally see what a mini Shenzhou-on-a-Chang'e-bus looks like?
and of course, it would be nice to know what happens to the bus after releasing that capsule...

;)

http://news.cntv.cn/2014/10/22/VIDE1413951603331360.shtml (http://news.cntv.cn/2014/10/22/VIDE1413951603331360.shtml)
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - October 23, 2014
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 10/22/2014 09:55 AM
That's funny. I got a different video on that link. I've brightened some of the images above and attached screen captures of the video I got, as well as the video itself. It looks like the spacecraft will be doing a burn around the Moon. I'm not sure if this is to go into orbit and back out again, or to speed up the return journey, like Apollo 13.
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - October 23, 2014
Post by: satwatcher on 10/22/2014 10:25 AM
That's funny. I got a different video on that link. I've brightened some of the images above and attached screen captures of the video I got, as well as the video itself. It looks like the spacecraft will be doing a burn around the Moon. I'm not sure if this is to go into orbit and back out again, or to speed up the return journey, like Apollo 13.

The video you attached shows what I think is a lander (it has landing legs) performing a descent burn. It looks quite different from the satellite bus in the still images. It may be that the video is a simulation for the Chang'e 5 lander.
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - October 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 10/22/2014 10:35 AM
That's funny. I got a different video on that link. I've brightened some of the images above and attached screen captures of the video I got, as well as the video itself. It looks like the spacecraft will be doing a burn around the Moon. I'm not sure if this is to go into orbit and back out again, or to speed up the return journey, like Apollo 13.

The video you attached shows what I think is a lander (it has landing legs) performing a descent burn. It looks quite different from the satellite bus in the still images. It may be that the video is a simulation for the Chang'e 5 lander.

Close. It is Chang'e 3.  ;)

BTW the official statement today explicitly mentions that the return capsule will make a skip re-entry prior to landing in central Inner Mongolia.  ::)
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - October 23, 2014
Post by: satwatcher on 10/22/2014 10:47 AM
Close. It is Chang'e 3.  ;)

BTW the official statement today explicitly mentions that the return capsule will make a skip re-entry prior to landing in central Inner Mongolia.  ::)

Ah, ok.

Is there a time reported for landing?
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - October 23, 2014
Post by: Phillip Clark on 10/22/2014 12:41 PM
Depending on how rounded the planned flight time is, with four days to the Moon and four days back it might be possible to enter selenocentric orbit for a day or so.   On the other hand I would expect the Chinese to go for a Zond/L-1 class loop around the Moon and return to Earth, thus simplifying what is a challenging mission for them..
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - October 23, 2014
Post by: plutogno on 10/22/2014 04:26 PM
a two-part reportage on CE-5-T1 from CCTV:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-1yXKBn9So
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYdRPym3L7o
they also depicted the skip reentry
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - October 23, 2014
Post by: plutogno on 10/22/2014 05:35 PM
and another video. it shows the bus maneuvering out of collision course with Earth (at 1:22). the question remains: will it be reused somehow?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCA7Civ5FJ0
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - October 23, 2014
Post by: russianhalo117 on 10/22/2014 05:58 PM
and another video. it shows the bus maneuvering out of collision course with Earth (at 1:22). the question remains: will it be reused somehow?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCA7Civ5FJ0
Yes, seems to be the case. burn could be enough to return to the moon as it seems have some camera instuments onboard. since I dont speak or read Chinese language someone would need to check the documents/people for us.
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - October 23, 2014
Post by: Blackstar on 10/22/2014 06:05 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkgG_SzXHVw
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - October 23, 2014
Post by: Blackstar on 10/22/2014 06:24 PM
From the above video.
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - October 23, 2014
Post by: Satori on 10/22/2014 08:24 PM
and another video. it shows the bus maneuvering out of collision course with Earth (at 1:22). the question remains: will it be reused somehow?

Yes, seems to be the case. burn could be enough to return to the moon as it seems have some camera instuments onboard. since I dont speak or read Chinese language someone would need to check the documents/people for us.

But could that maneuver be done only with the service module engine? If the separation between the return capsule and the service module takes place on the way to Earth after circumnavigating, will the service module had enough delta-V to make a return to the Moon maneuver or will it pass through the Earth and in a slingshot maneuver return to the Moon?
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - October 23, 2014
Post by: Chris Bergin on 10/22/2014 09:44 PM
Cool! So live TV and 17:59 UTC T-0. We'll convert this into a live thread. Rui has an extensive article for the event! :)
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - October 23, 2014
Post by: plutogno on 10/23/2014 05:39 AM
shedding a lot of its mass after releasing the capsule, the bus may have enough Delta-V to enter orbit around the Sun (for ex doing a propulsive maneuver at the second perigee). I would not be surprised if they pulled out a second asteroid flyby "à la Chang'e-2".
we'll see...
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - October 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 10/23/2014 08:26 AM
Not much is happening at this time.....but here are photos from earlier today:
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - October 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 10/23/2014 09:35 AM
The rocket as filmed by LuxSpace engineers:  (http://moon.luxspace.lu/the-rocket/) ;)
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - October 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 10/23/2014 09:38 AM
Some reports about the 4M ham radio beacon on board by the Air & Space magazine: http://www.airspacemag.com/daily-planet/first-privately-funded-moon-mission-ride-chinese-rocket-180953094/ (http://www.airspacemag.com/daily-planet/first-privately-funded-moon-mission-ride-chinese-rocket-180953094/)
Title: Re: CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor mission) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - October 23, 2014
Post by: Satori on 10/23/2014 10:20 AM
From Xinhua, Space launch to pave the way for lunar expedition (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/sci/2014-10/23/c_133736775.htm).
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Chris Bergin on 10/23/2014 11:12 AM
Moved for live coverage.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 10/23/2014 11:53 AM
I received reports that the state TV news channel did not report a launch time for this during their 7 pm news. Hmm.....  ::)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Chris Bergin on 10/23/2014 02:00 PM
FEATURE ARTICLE - By Rui C. Barbosa:

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2014/10/china-lunar-sample-return-test-mission/
Title: Re: Chang'e 5 precursor mission - CZ-3C/E - October 2014
Post by: JSz on 10/23/2014 02:07 PM
I'm seeing a rumor (http://bbs.9ifly.cn/forum.php?mod=redirect&goto=findpost&ptid=11379&pid=312534) of launching around October 24....  ;)

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/sci/2014-10/23/c_133736775.htm: "China will launch an experimental spacecraft between Friday and Sunday...".
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 10/23/2014 02:20 PM
Thunderstorms currently crossing the Xichang area....  ::)

(not surprising since IIRC the lightning density per year there is comparable to that of Florida)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Skyrocket on 10/23/2014 03:00 PM
Rocket on the pad.
This one is an archive image of an earlier launch.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Star One on 10/23/2014 03:19 PM

FEATURE ARTICLE - By Rui C. Barbosa:

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2014/10/china-lunar-sample-return-test-mission/

Thanks for that extremely through article on this mission, didn't realise they were using a new launcher on this mission.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 10/23/2014 03:25 PM

FEATURE ARTICLE - By Rui C. Barbosa:

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2014/10/china-lunar-sample-return-test-mission/

Thanks for that extremely through article on this mission, didn't realise they were using a new launcher on this mission.

It is part of a launcher standardization effort with the upgraded Long March 3B that were flying since 2007. See this recent IAC-2014 paper about the upgrades of the Long March 3A/B/C series:
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 10/23/2014 03:43 PM
Weather radar and local reports show that the rain is subsiding at the launch site.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Chris Bergin on 10/23/2014 05:11 PM
Under 50 mins to launch, all being well!
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Phillip Clark on 10/23/2014 05:19 PM
Any links to live coverage from China yet, please?
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: dsell88 on 10/23/2014 05:21 PM
Any links to live coverage from China yet, please?

I'm currently watching http://english.cntv.cn/live/p2p/index.shtml for info, though there's no slot for the launch coverage allocated in the schedule.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Satori on 10/23/2014 05:29 PM
Any links to live coverage from China yet, please?

I think launch will be webcasted at http://english.cntv.cn/live/p2p/index.shtml
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Phillip Clark on 10/23/2014 05:30 PM
Thank you dsell88, I have that open at present.   And Rui, I will try that link as well.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Satori on 10/23/2014 05:37 PM
Video of the roll of the service tower...

https://cloud.luxspace.lu/public.php?service=files&t=580a5de09081606064c5cb8780677a9f&download
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 10/23/2014 05:40 PM
Here is the "pad camera" TV at the spectator's stand about 30 minutes ago.  ;)

T-20 minutes.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Chris Bergin on 10/23/2014 05:42 PM
CCTV say they'll have business news at the top of the hour, so that doesn't sound hopeful.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Satori on 10/23/2014 05:47 PM
CCTV say they'll have business news at the top of the hour, so that doesn't sound hopeful.

They will probably break the news to show the launch live.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 10/23/2014 05:48 PM
Also try http://tv.cntv.cn/live/cctv13/ (http://tv.cntv.cn/live/cctv13/) for the Chinese version. They are replaying programs at this time so maybe, just maybe....
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: dsell88 on 10/23/2014 05:49 PM
CCTV say they'll have business news at the top of the hour, so that doesn't sound hopeful.

They will probably break the news to show the launch live.

I wonder if anyone is watching their network traffic as a bunch of American IP addresses dial in to watch a rocket launch.  :P
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Phillip Clark on 10/23/2014 05:51 PM
And in the UK as well, dsell88!!!
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Nordren on 10/23/2014 05:52 PM
And Finland...!
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Satori on 10/23/2014 05:54 PM
Five minutes for launch...
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Phillip Clark on 10/23/2014 05:55 PM
Has anyone seen an official launch mass for the Chang'E 5 precursor spacecraft?   And/or the descent module on its own?
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 10/23/2014 05:57 PM
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Chris Bergin on 10/23/2014 05:59 PM
Clearly no live coverage.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Satori on 10/23/2014 06:00 PM
Clearly no live coverage.

:( and launch should already taken place.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Phillip Clark on 10/23/2014 06:02 PM
Clearly no live coverage.

Clearly the Chinese need to get their priorities right as a major space-faring nation.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 10/23/2014 06:04 PM
(in Launch Director tone) Liftoff Confirmed!
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: plutogno on 10/23/2014 06:04 PM
from Xinhua on twitter: China launches an experimental return spacecraft that will orbit the moon and return to Earth
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Nordren on 10/23/2014 06:06 PM
China must be making around 15 launches a year now. The relevant authorities should start streaming these on their own sites.

(Edit: failed to form a proper sentence)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Chris Bergin on 10/23/2014 06:09 PM
(in Launch Director tone) Liftoff Confirmed!

Very good. Just a shame they didn't bother to stream it.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: beidou on 10/23/2014 06:09 PM

新华社快讯:我国探月工程三期再入返回飞行试验器在西昌卫星发射中心由长征三号丙运载火箭发射升空。
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Satori on 10/23/2014 06:11 PM

新华社快讯:我国探月工程三期再入返回飞行试验器在西昌卫星发射中心由长征三号丙运载火箭发射升空。


Automatic translation

Xinhua News Agency News: China's engineering three lunar return reentry flight tests at the Xichang Satellite Launch Center Long March III carrier rocket launch.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Liss on 10/23/2014 06:24 PM
Seems to have been launched:

(http://bbs.9ifly.cn/data/attachment/forum/201410/24/021636v9s29zmqk58qqqqk.jpg)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Nordren on 10/23/2014 06:29 PM
Launch video: http://www.weishi.com/t/2003550064078245
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 10/23/2014 06:31 PM
Not long left now (if not already happened) till spacecraft separation...  ::)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Satori on 10/23/2014 06:35 PM
Launch video: http://www.weishi.com/t/2003550064078245

That people looks terribly close to the launch pad!
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 10/23/2014 06:41 PM
Xinhua has confirmed nominal orbit injection and spacecraft separation!  8)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Svetoslav on 10/23/2014 06:56 PM
https://twitter.com/XHNews

Here's a photo.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: avollhar on 10/23/2014 07:21 PM
first telemetry frames from 4M piggyback experiment received! http://4mdata.luxspace.lu/#home (http://4mdata.luxspace.lu/#home)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: avollhar on 10/23/2014 07:43 PM
Reports from Melbourne coming in: beacon can be heard on a simple handheld receiver with quarterwave antenna. Thanks Geoffrey!
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: beidou on 10/23/2014 08:13 PM
4M on its way to the moon

Bremen, Germany and Betzdorf, Luxembourg - October 23, 2014

The Manfred Memorial Moon Mission (4M) has been successfully launched on board a Long March 3 from the Xichang Satellite Launch Center, China. The probe will now make its way to the moon, which it will reach in approximately 90 hours. At 9.31 p.m. CEST Luxspace reported the first 4M signals from Brasil.  "A very large number of radio amateurs has followed our request to acquire the data from the satellite. It is very encouraging to see so many people following our mission", said Marco Fuchs, CEO of OHB.

4M is a small spacecraft, which will transmit messages in memory of Prof. Manfred Fuchs and greetings from all around the world. Furthermore, 4M has a radiation experiment on board to measure the size of an appropriate radiation shielding and a multi-lateration trial for spacecraft navigation for the next lunar mission.

After the moon turn around, the probe will return to the earth and possibly enter into an elliptic earth orbit with the nearest point at about 50, 000 km. "We have only known about this for a number of weeks and have added some solar cells to the probe to extend its lifetime and obtain more radiation data from this unexplored orbit, which we will certainly share with all interested parties", added Jochen Harms, Managing Director of LuxSpace.

Please also refer to our moon page -  moon.luxspace.lu
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Satori on 10/23/2014 08:28 PM
Launch time exactly at 1800:00.000UTC???? Or 1800:04.829???
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Satori on 10/23/2014 08:36 PM
Launch images...
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Satori on 10/23/2014 08:47 PM
...and more launch images...
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: anik on 10/23/2014 09:40 PM
Launch time exactly at 1800:00.000UTC???? Or 1800:04.829???

04.829 is an actual liftoff time, 00.000 is a planned "push a button" time.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Satori on 10/23/2014 09:40 PM
Launch time exactly at 1800:00.000UTC???? Or 1800:04.829???

04.829 is an actual liftoff time, 00.000 is a planned "push a button" time.

Great, thank you Andrey!
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: anik on 10/23/2014 09:47 PM
Great, thank you Andrey!

Not at all. I thought that it was obvious for you, Rui. Our China space expert.  ;)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Satori on 10/23/2014 10:09 PM
According to my tables, this was the 5400th orbital launch attempt since 1957.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Satori on 10/23/2014 10:30 PM
From Xinhua, China launches test return orbiter for lunar mission (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2014-10/24/c_127134592.htm).
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: anik on 10/23/2014 10:33 PM
According to my tables, this was the 5400th orbital launch attempt since 1957

Hmm... I have 5400th launch for Ekspress-AM6. Do you have one or two KZ launches?
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: jcm on 10/23/2014 10:49 PM
http://news.xinhuanet.com/tech/2014-10/24/c_127134550.htm

Chinese launch statement from Xinhua

Orbit 209 x 413000 km
Lunar exploration project by National Defense Science and Technology Industrial Development Bureau 国家国防科技工业局  (i.e. SASTIND)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Prober on 10/24/2014 01:26 AM
From Xinhua, China launches test return orbiter for lunar mission (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2014-10/24/c_127134592.htm).

Sorry China just not good enough, we need to see utube video of launch or live event video to take your program seriously.  Why hide?  Show
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Dalhousie on 10/24/2014 02:19 AM
From Xinhua, China launches test return orbiter for lunar mission (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2014-10/24/c_127134592.htm).

Sorry China just not good enough, we need to see utube video of launch or live event video to take your program seriously.  Why hide?  Show

The achievement and the results are good enough, it's not done for our entertainment, we have no entitlement to see live video.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: RonM on 10/24/2014 03:06 AM
From Xinhua, China launches test return orbiter for lunar mission (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2014-10/24/c_127134592.htm).

Sorry China just not good enough, we need to see utube video of launch or live event video to take your program seriously.  Why hide?  Show

The achievement and the results are good enough, it's not done for our entertainment, we have no entitlement to see live video.

While engineering and science are the main goals of unmanned missions, do not underestimate the importance of 'soft power' on the world stage. China should show off their success.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Lsquirrel on 10/24/2014 04:03 AM
According to xinhuanet:
http://news.xinhuanet.com/tech/2014-10/24/c_127134550.htm
探月工程由国家国防科技工业局牵头组织实施。飞行试验器由中国航天科技集团公司空间技术研究院研制,由服务舱和返回器两部分组成,服务舱以嫦娥二号卫星平台为基础研制,具备留轨开展科研试验功能;返回器为新研产品,具备返回着陆功能。

the service module is DFH3/Chang'e-2 bus, (after reentry module landing?) it will be used for scientific research and experiments
I am very interested in Extended Mission of the service module
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 10/24/2014 04:19 AM
Short launch video. Here's the link to the CCTC english site. Spacecraft separation below.

http://english.cntv.cn/2014/10/24/VIDE1414118887115767.shtml

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HkURLU96a4
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 10/24/2014 04:26 AM
Another short video.

http://newscontent.cctv.com/NewJsp/news.jsp?fileId=265874
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Dalhousie on 10/24/2014 04:46 AM
From Xinhua, China launches test return orbiter for lunar mission (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2014-10/24/c_127134592.htm).

Sorry China just not good enough, we need to see utube video of launch or live event video to take your program seriously.  Why hide?  Show

The achievement and the results are good enough, it's not done for our entertainment, we have no entitlement to see live video.

While engineering and science are the main goals of unmanned missions, do not underestimate the importance of 'soft power' on the world stage. China should show off their success.

Indeed, but it's their decision on how to do this.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Nordren on 10/24/2014 04:56 AM
From Xinhua, China launches test return orbiter for lunar mission (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2014-10/24/c_127134592.htm).

Sorry China just not good enough, we need to see utube video of launch or live event video to take your program seriously.  Why hide?  Show

The achievement and the results are good enough, it's not done for our entertainment, we have no entitlement to see live video.

While engineering and science are the main goals of unmanned missions, do not underestimate the importance of 'soft power' on the world stage. China should show off their success.

Indeed, but it's their decision on how to do this.

The Communist Party of China view the space program as having huge political pay-offs domestically. For the same reasons, they seem sensitive to possible failure. Perhaps as this is not a marquee mission, they minimized the risks. I hope (and somewhat expect) Chang'e-4 (next year?) and the Tiangong-2, Shenzhou-11 et al flights are shown live.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Nordren on 10/24/2014 05:01 AM
LuxSpace / 4M have put up a 1:30 spectator video (Seems close, even without the zoom).
https://cloud.luxspace.lu/public.php?service=files&t=c7cc065cd4757e1ba570521e3f40b4c2
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 10/24/2014 05:20 AM
Sure, the Chinese are minimising any potential negativity if there is a failure, but they are also minimising the impact of the mission with their own citizens and people around the world. In my opinion, going to the Moon is a large part of the latter, which is why you take the risk and reap the rewards when you have success. I think the Chinese also need to start making press-kits for these missions as well. That helps in generating exposure.

From the screen grabs from above, a lot of people missed seeing live what looks to be great mission. That spacecraft separation looks fantastic!
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Star One on 10/24/2014 08:01 AM

Sure, the Chinese are minimising any potential negativity if there is a failure, but they are also minimising the impact of the mission with their own citizens and people around the world. In my opinion, going to the Moon is a large part of the latter, which is why you take the risk and reap the rewards when you have success. I think the Chinese also need to start making press-kits for these missions as well. That helps in generating exposure.

From the screen grabs from above, a lot of people missed seeing live what looks to be great mission. That spacecraft separation looks fantastic!

I've seen no coverage of this mission at all outside of the specialist media and I would say that's not a positive.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: heinkel174 on 10/24/2014 08:41 AM
CCTV-13 did some fairly elaborate coverage of the mission this morning. Given the amount of resource deployed by CCTV on the launch site and control center, my gut feeling is that they’re fully prepared for live broadcasting but wasn’t given the go-ahead.

BTW I think it has nothing to do with risk-averse considerations. They streamed the landing of Chang’e-3 which is far more risky than a routine CZ-3 launch.  More likely the mission simply doesn’t enjoy very high priority and they didn’t bother with midnight live coverage.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Satori on 10/24/2014 08:46 AM
According to my tables, this was the 5400th orbital launch attempt since 1957

Hmm... I have 5400th launch for Ekspress-AM6. Do you have one or two KZ launches?

One.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Nighthawk on 10/24/2014 08:58 AM
This time the dashcam in the payload pay is installed off-center, so no starwar-ish solar eclipse recorded!
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: anik on 10/24/2014 09:55 AM
One

Okay, that is a difference.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Lewis007 on 10/24/2014 10:49 AM
A few additional pics posted by Chinanews.

Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Nordren on 10/24/2014 11:16 AM
Debris in mountainside of Jiangxi Province (a few more here (http://www.chinanews.com/tp/hd2011/2014/10-24/426173.shtml))
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Phillip Clark on 10/24/2014 11:44 AM
I am sure that this is an irrelevant thought but 47 years ago in September and November 1967 the Soviet Union started to launch its L-1/Zond spacecraft on missions intended to fly around the Moon and be returned to Earth - just the sort of mission that the smaller Chang'E 5 Precursor (anyone know an official Chinese name??) that is hoping to complete..
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: the_other_Doug on 10/24/2014 12:49 PM
In re the discussion of live coverage vs. holding their cards close to their chests, I believe the Chinese are trying to tread a fine line, here.  China has a long history, much longer than their history as a Communist country, of strong, centralized control of all governmental functions.  It leads to a mindset of making public only those things that reflect positively on the current ruling regime and concealing anything that might be embarrassing (or worse) to the leadership.

There was a quite strong desire amongst early American rocket scientists and NASA officials to only announce their successes, as well.  The American policy of publicizing everything live, with its attendant risks of embarrassment if anything went wrong, was adopted primarily as a public relations tool, to try and contrast the differences between how a "free" state operates vs. how the Soviet system, which deplored advertising failures, operated.  But, rather like the quote about Kennedy and going to the Moon, deep down they "would rather not have done it."

Those of us in the West have thus become used to the live coverage of space flight events and the tension inherent in watching and waiting to see if the mission is going as planned.  But, had the political situation been just a little different in the late 50s and early 60s, even the American program might have developed along the lines of only announcing successes after they occurred, and sweeping failures under the rug as much as possible.  To say that the Chinese can't be world leaders in space flight if they choose to follow the old Soviet model is a little disingenuous, seeing as how the Soviet system, while more frustrating to us fans in terms of following missions live, certainly didn't stop the Soviets from becoming the world's first pre-eminent world leader in space flight.

Personally, I find the Chinese system much more amenable to providing real-time coverage of their missions than even ESA is at present (though for different reasons).  ESA's frustrating-to-us-fans policies in re releasing data and images from their planetary probes, for instance, is based on a desire to avoid publicly sharing a vast majority of their data until their own PIs have had an opportunity to study it and write their own peer-reviewed papers before anyone else has a chance to even look at it (something Carolyn Porco has defended with the "it's our picnic, don't we deserve first crack at the picnic basket?" metaphor).  Personally, I find that PR policy more frustrating than the old Soviet style of announcing only one's successes.  At least in the old Soviet system, you didn't have the frustration of knowing there was a spacecraft doing marvelous things that aren't being shared.

All IMHO, of course.

-Doug  (With my shield, not yet upon it)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Satori on 10/24/2014 01:33 PM
Interesting info on the images...
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: satwatcher on 10/24/2014 02:27 PM
Besides receiving the amateur 2m band transmitter on the upper stage S-band signals from Chang'E 5-T1 itself are now also being received radio HAMs. Frequency is 2210.800MHz.
https://twitter.com/uhf_satcom/status/525642099455455232 (https://twitter.com/uhf_satcom/status/525642099455455232)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Lsquirrel on 10/24/2014 02:28 PM
it  has taken a photo of earth
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Blackstar on 10/24/2014 03:08 PM
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 10/24/2014 03:44 PM
CE-5-T1 has made its first mid-course correction burn at 08:29 UTC today.  :)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: plutogno on 10/24/2014 04:17 PM
it  have taken a photo of earth

would be interesting to know whether it comes from a proper "2D" camera, i.e. not a pushbroom one like on CE-1 and -2 or from an engineering webcam like those on CE-2
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Satori on 10/24/2014 06:02 PM
CE-5-T1 has made its first mid-course correction burn at 08:29 UTC today.  :)

From Xinhua, China's lunar orbiter modifies orbit (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2014-10/24/c_133741097.htm).
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: jcm on 10/24/2014 11:57 PM
TLEs now on Space-Track.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 10/25/2014 01:20 AM
TLEs now on Space-Track.

....both with negative perigees, confirming that they are currently on a free-return trajectory.  ::)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: jcm on 10/25/2014 01:30 AM
TLEs now on Space-Track.

....both with negative perigees, confirming that they are currently on a free-return trajectory.  ::)

I hesitated to conclude that, not having calculated the lunar perturbations...
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: plutogno on 10/25/2014 06:27 AM
courtesy of the French forum de la conquete spatiale, some extensive CCTV reporting on the mission.
note that the second video seems to discuss, from 0:28 on, plans for imaging the Earth using what looks like star cameras. I guess the image we have seen comes from these.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhokVUpTln0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vqp5vmAAGws
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4_qK80pT14
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StFYzparto8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ew9YYUyZK1I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7y9nZwtywk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDVBD9smIHc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6u2yZXuXcSI
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Lewis007 on 10/25/2014 07:31 AM
Some pics taken in the control center during the first course trajectory maneuver.
More pics here: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/photo/2014-10/24/c_133741009.htm

I also attach a link on the increased "secrecy" of the Chinese space program.
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Chinas_space_policy_gets_even_tighter_999.html

Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: satwatcher on 10/25/2014 09:59 AM
The Space-Track elements of Chang'e 5T1 and its rocket are on Space Track. For now, both have identical orbital elements. Taking the position and velocity of the 40283/14065A elset with epoch 14296.61771037 and propagating it forward under gravity from the Earth, Moon and Sun shows that the Chang'e 5T1 is on a free return trajectory. The closest approach to the Moon will be on October 27 at 19:03 UT at a distance of 11300 km from the lunar surface. It willreturn to Earth on October 31st, when at 21:36UT it passes an altitude of 100km. That happens over the Arabian Sea at 61E, 5N when Chang'e 5T1 is travelling North East towards China. The velocity at that point is 11.01 km/s.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/52579487/launch.png)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/52579487/encounter.png)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/52579487/entry.png)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Dalhousie on 10/25/2014 11:57 AM
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Chinas_space_policy_gets_even_tighter_999.html

Talk about sensationalistic over-reaction! 
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Xusually on 10/25/2014 01:19 PM
Interesting info on the images...
Translation of the tv image.
                                                  遥测参数(telemetry parameters)
参数名称(parameters)                              实测值(actual measurement value)      理论值(theoretical value)   单位(unit)
助推器分离(booster separation)                    137.705                               139.920                     秒(seconds)
一、二级分离(first stage separation)              159.268                               158.968                     秒(seconds)
抛整流罩(fairing separation)                      269.719                               272.968                     秒(seconds)
二、三级分离(second stage separation)             344.068                               343.768                     秒(seconds)
三级一次关机(first shutdown of third stage)       624.318                               624.018                     秒(seconds)
三级二次点火(second ignition of third stage)      829.183                               829.168                     秒(seconds)
三级二次关机(second shutdown of third stage)      1006.984                              1004.910                    秒(seconds)
末速修正结束(end of terminal velocity correction) 1026.706                              1025.110                    秒(seconds)
器箭分离(payload separation)                      1106.711                              1105.110                    秒(seconds)

Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: jcm on 10/25/2014 02:35 PM
The Space-Track elements of Chang'e 5T1 and its rocket are on Space Track. For now, both have identical orbital elements. Taking the position and velocity of the 40283/14065A elset with epoch 14296.61771037 and propagating it forward under gravity from the Earth, Moon and Sun shows that the Chang'e 5T1 is on a free return trajectory. The closest approach to the Moon will be on October 27 at 19:03 UT at a distance of 11300 km from the lunar surface. It willreturn to Earth on October 31st, when at 21:36UT it passes an altitude of 100km. That happens over the Arabian Sea at 61E, 5N when Chang'e 5T1 is travelling North East towards China. The velocity at that point is 11.01 km/s.
 

Nice! What do you get propagating the orbit backwards? When I do a dumb 1-body calc, these TLEs seem to give me a TLI burn around
2236 UTC instead of 1818 UTC which is puzzling me but probably the correct treatment of the data gives a more sensible answer...
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: satwatcher on 10/25/2014 03:09 PM
Nice! What do you get propagating the orbit backwards? When I do a dumb 1-body calc, these TLEs seem to give me a TLI burn around
2236 UTC instead of 1818 UTC which is puzzling me but probably the correct treatment of the data gives a more sensible answer...

The plot below shows the elset propagated back to 18:20UTC, when it was at 227km altitude and having a velocity of 10.9 km/s. Also shown is the Chang'e 2 parking orbit [88002] based on the Space Track elset for 37174/10050A  at epoch 10274.45839120, but with its epoch and RAAN adjusted to the Chang'e 5T1 launch time of 18:00UTC. That circular orbit has a velocity of 7.75 km/s. The orbits are essentially co-planar.

Shown in green are the location of the lunar antipode at the reported time (green box), and 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 days later. The orbital plane of the adjusted Chang'e 2 and the propagated Space Track elsets of Chang'e 5T1 pass over the 4 day antipode point, indicating closest approach with the Moon at 4 days after launch. This fits very well with the propagated orbit predicting the closest approach at 19:03UT on the 27th.


Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Prober on 10/25/2014 04:31 PM
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Chinas_space_policy_gets_even_tighter_999.html

Talk about sensationalistic over-reaction!

"But this is counter-productive. The Chinese space program is an outstanding triumph for this nation, and matched by so few. Greater publicity would be in China's best interests. It would also promote greater international co-operation in space, which is something China apparently wants."
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Blackstar on 10/25/2014 04:32 PM
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Blackstar on 10/25/2014 05:08 PM
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Chinas_space_policy_gets_even_tighter_999.html

Talk about sensationalistic over-reaction!

"But this is counter-productive. The Chinese space program is an outstanding triumph for this nation, and matched by so few. Greater publicity would be in China's best interests. It would also promote greater international co-operation in space, which is something China apparently wants."


The article didn't strike me as sensationalistic. But I think it lacked a little perspective. After all, China has released quite a bit of information on their science spacecraft, and last year they did the unprecedented move of broadcasting the CE-3 launch live. They have released quite a bit of information during this current mission (see all the above videos). But we should keep in mind that it is merely an engineering test mission, so naturally they are not going to release as much info as CE-3 because there is not as much to release. And if we compare what they are doing to the Soviet Union even during the 1980s, China is more open than the Soviets were.

I'd also suggest that we have to view this through an Asian lens, not simply a Chinese one. Asian countries tend to be more reticent about providing information in general, especially if they think it might be embarrassing. China's policy on information release, I am told, is not that unusual for an Asian nation--they hold off until just before an event before they release more information, rather than Western nations that will often put out substantial information long before a launch.

Jones may be right that the leadership change may have resulted in changed policies, but I also think that some of the examples he selected are not truly analogous and we should wait for more examples before drawing conclusions.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: plutogno on 10/26/2014 07:13 AM
CE-5 T1 and 4M are now over 1 light-second from Earth (300000 km), with the Chinese probe ahead by some thousand of km
http://moon.luxspace.lu/blog/
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Lsquirrel on 10/26/2014 07:37 AM
CCTV-13 did some fairly elaborate coverage of the mission this morning. Given the amount of resource deployed by CCTV on the launch site and control center, my gut feeling is that they’re fully prepared for live broadcasting but wasn’t given the go-ahead.

BTW I think it has nothing to do with risk-averse considerations. They streamed the landing of Chang’e-3 which is far more risky than a routine CZ-3 launch.  More likely the mission simply doesn’t enjoy very high priority and they didn’t bother with midnight live coverage.
hopefully,there may be  a live broadcasting of reentry, cctv 13 have been fully prepared!
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: plutogno on 10/26/2014 08:42 AM
anybody has seen figures for the mass of the bus and fuel?
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Lsquirrel on 10/26/2014 12:08 PM
anybody has seen figures for the mass of the bus and fuel?

according to official cnsa
http://www.cnsa.gov.cn/n1081/n7529/n308608/654075.html
“舞娣”由服务舱和返回器两部分组成。其中服务舱重达2000多千克,以嫦娥二号卫星平台为基础进行适应性改进 设计,主体结构是规则立方体,外部装有太阳翼、天线、推进器、照相机、敏感器等;返回器重300多千克,继承了神舟飞船返回舱的外形,大小却只有其八分之 一左右。它与探月三期正式任务中返回器的状态基本一致,全部电子设备都装在内部。

the mass of DFH3 bus is 2000+kg,the mass of reentry module is 300+kg
the mass of  Typical DFH3 bus is 2330kg,with 1330 kg fuel

i think that the mass of CE5T1's fuel is about 1000kg
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Phillip Clark on 10/26/2014 12:17 PM
As ball-park figures I am estimating a launch mass of ~3 tonnes with the descent craft around 300-400 kg.   That is nearly an order of magnitude heavier than for the Soviet-era sample-return descent craft.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 10/27/2014 06:03 AM
Well sorry if I haven't been following this too closely over this weekend - I had a sore throat.  :-X

Anyway the latest news.....Chang'e 5-T1 has crossed into the lunar gravitational realm at around 03:30 UTC today, ahead of the fly-by in half a day's time.  ::)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: satwatcher on 10/27/2014 07:20 AM
There are no further elements on Space Track except those on Saturday. My best guess for closest approach using the elements that are available is 19:03UT today.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Phillip Clark on 10/27/2014 07:25 AM
There are no further elements on Space Track except those on Saturday. My best guess for closest approach using the elements that are available is 19:03UT today.

I wonder how accurate those elements were.   Perhaps they were "search elements" rather than actual tracking data. 

BTW, does anyone know the parameters of the LEO parking orbit that the third stage and attached spacecraft entered before TLI?
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: plutogno on 10/27/2014 07:45 AM
I am puzzled... Xinhua is reporting that the probe has entered lunar orbit...
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/sci/2014-10/27/c_133745477.htm
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: satwatcher on 10/27/2014 07:47 AM
I wonder how accurate those elements were.   Perhaps they were "search elements" rather than actual tracking data. 

Possibly, though the available elements propagate to a very reasonable reentry location. We'll have to see what happens.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Phillip Clark on 10/27/2014 08:08 AM
Maybe they are referring to the spacecraft having entered the Moon's sphere of influence, so it is being considered to be in a selenocentric orbit, albeit a hyperbolic one relative to the Moon.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: gwiz on 10/27/2014 11:16 AM
BTW, does anyone know the parameters of the LEO parking orbit that the third stage and attached spacecraft entered before TLI?
Satellite Situation Report currently has 263-277 km, 28.89 deg for the payload and only the rocket on course to the moon.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Skylab on 10/27/2014 11:55 AM
Maybe they are referring to the spacecraft having entered the Moon's sphere of influence, so it is being considered to be in a selenocentric orbit, albeit a hyperbolic one relative to the Moon.
It's not the first mention I've seen of going into orbit, but the nature of it remains unclear:
Quote
Setting the stage for what could be China’s first roundtrip to the Moon. The lunar test orbiter will travel all the way to the moon and enter its orbit. It will follow the same flight path as the Chang’e 2 and 3 missions. Tests will then be carried out to see if the orbiter can escape the Moon’s orbit and return back to Earth.
Source: http://english.cntv.cn/2014/10/22/VIDE1413983397881381.shtml
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Kryten on 10/27/2014 04:33 PM
Could it simply be that, by looping around the moon, it's 'orbiting' in the colloquial sense of the term?
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Phil Stooke on 10/27/2014 04:48 PM
Yes, exactly.   We know it's not in a true lunar orbit, just looping round the Moon.  Remember these articles are not written or translated by scientists or engineers.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: cscott on 10/27/2014 06:03 PM
Yes, exactly.   We know it's not in a true lunar orbit, just looping round the Moon.  Remember these articles are not written or translated by scientists or engineers.

And bear in mind there might be linguistic differences.  I'm just a mandarin dabbler, not an expert, but it's entirely possible that the characters used here for 'orbit' have shades of meaning ("path under the influence of") which are being lost.

Just as an example, the six Chinese characters on the screen after the Shenzhou launch on CCTV translate literally as: "Fire Arrow, Start Fire, Begin Flying"... which is our "Rocket Ignition, Liftoff".  This isn't to say that Chinese speakers think in pidgin -- just that the language uses juxtaposition of words in a more complex way.  Chinese poetry, rather than relying on rhyme like in English, relies on the inherent ambiguity in these compounds.  A rocket is also a fire arrow, etc.  When you narrow the translation down to a specific English word, like "orbit", you lose the essential multiplicity of meaning in the original.  (And this is even before we get to the fact that the translators are not likely experts in the field, etc, so they might not even recognize the specific "ignition" technical meaning of the two characters "start fire", say...)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 10/27/2014 11:10 PM
Here's some screen grabs from those videos. They seem to match the orbit predictions above.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: the_other_Doug on 10/27/2014 11:48 PM
I initially had some misunderstanding of what the 5T-1 spacecraft was going to do based on the eight-day trip time.  The Apollo free-return trajectories were roughly six-day trip time orbits, three days out and three days back.  And their speed relative to Earth was as low as 880 meters per second when they passed into the lunar sphere of influence, so they weren't tearing through that transition way faster than needful.

If you assumed a three-day one-way trip time, then you'd have to assume a couple of days spent in lunar orbit.  The Apollo G mission was eight days long, and it included enough time in lunar orbit to allow a landing, EVA, liftoff and rendezvous.  It's been in the past couple of days that I realized my initial assumption was wrong.  (It's what always happens when you assume...)

It appears, then, that the Chang'e free return trajectory is significantly slower than the Apollo free-return trajectory.  Which makes me wonder if the Chang'e trajectory, either Earth-referenced after TLI or Moon-referenced while in the lunar sphere, is truly hyperbolic.  At what energy level of an orbit that crosses into the lunar sphere does the initial trajectory post-TLI appear as parabolic and not hyperbolic?

Or am I completely wrong and the lunar trajectories are all, and have always been, parabolic?

-Doug  (With my shield, not yet upon it)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Svetoslav on 10/28/2014 07:17 AM
http://moon.luxspace.lu/flyby-has-occured-this-night/

Flyby has occured this night
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Svetoslav on 10/28/2014 07:24 AM
And Xinhua:
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/sci/2014-10/27/c_133745477.htm
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Phillip Clark on 10/28/2014 07:36 AM
TLEs for the CZ-3C third stage can be found at (near the bottom of the page):

http://moon.luxspace.lu/receiving-4m/
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: satwatcher on 10/28/2014 08:36 AM
It appears, then, that the Chang'e free return trajectory is significantly slower than the Apollo free-return trajectory.  Which makes me wonder if the Chang'e trajectory, either Earth-referenced after TLI or Moon-referenced while in the lunar sphere, is truly hyperbolic.  At what energy level of an orbit that crosses into the lunar sphere does the initial trajectory post-TLI appear as parabolic and not hyperbolic?

Even near the Moon the perturbations due to the Earth are still significant, so the trajectories are neither truly hyperbolic or parabolic.

As for the flight times, there are two classes of free return trajectories. They are defined by whether the trajectory is reflected in the Earth-Moon line, or also in the Earth-Moon plane. For the former the inclination of the trajectory near the Moon has low inclinations and low perilunes, for the latter higher (even polar) inclinations are possible, but at larger perilunes.

This has been discussed on the forums in the past. See http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=13543.msg868568#msg868568 (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=13543.msg868568#msg868568), which links to a paper by Schwaniger explaining these trajectories.

It seems the early Apollo missions (those not on the hybrid trajectory), used the first type of free return trajectory, while Chang'e 5T1 uses the second type. The advantage of the second type for Chang'e 5T1 is that reflection in the Earth Moon plane allows a trans lunar injection from the Northern hemisphere to the Southern hemisphere while the reentry will have the opposite trajectory. This enables recovery of the reentry capsule on the Northern hemisphere, i.e. in Inner Mongolia.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Lsquirrel on 10/28/2014 12:20 PM
CE-5T1 has taken some photos of moon and earth,very beautiful!
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: plutogno on 10/28/2014 01:21 PM
wow! fantastic!
note that the phase of the moon was almost the same as in October 1959 when Luna 3 took the first pictures of the farside...
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: tolis on 10/28/2014 02:30 PM
This is probably going too far (literally)
but the last image, rotated cw by 90 deg, reminds
me of a Voyager 2 composite of miranda's limb
with Uranus and its rings in the background.


Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Blackstar on 10/28/2014 03:12 PM
Top, the CE5 image. Middle, a shot from the pilot episode of Space 1999. Bottom, the middle image flipped horizontally.

Conclusion: the Chinese are filming this mission on a soundstage.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: JimO on 10/28/2014 05:16 PM
Very rough SWAG based on angles [Earth is 2 degrees wide, moon image is eight times more], I'd say the image was taken about four lunar diameters away.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: JimO on 10/28/2014 05:23 PM


3474 km divided by tan 16 degrees [0.29] or ~12,000 km. Does that make any trajectory sense?
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: satwatcher on 10/28/2014 05:35 PM
3474 km divided by tan 16 degrees [0.29] or ~12,000 km. Does that make any trajectory sense?
Yes, very. By propagating the Space Track orbital elements the closest approach was predicted at 19:03UT on the 27th at a distance of 11300 km above the surface  (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=34162.msg1276244#msg1276244).
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Phillip Clark on 10/28/2014 06:18 PM
If the closest approach to the Moon was just over three days after launch then a 7-8 days flight time suggests that the spacecraft is still on its way to a geocentric apogee after exiting the Moon's sphere of influence.   Right?
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Nordren on 10/29/2014 07:45 AM
Zarya.info has landing in Inner Mongolia for Friday, October 31, at 21:55 UTC (05:55 Saturday morning Nov 1 Beijing time), apparently accurate to within a few minutes. No idea about the chances of any live coverage. Nothing in the CCTV schedule, of course.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: the_other_Doug on 10/29/2014 02:38 PM
If the closest approach to the Moon was just over three days after launch then a 7-8 days flight time suggests that the spacecraft is still on its way to a geocentric apogee after exiting the Moon's sphere of influence.   Right?

The flight time from launch to lunar flyby was just over four days (the number I have is 97 hours, which is four days and one hour).  Not three days.  So yes, as of your post it was still climbing away from the Moon and heading for the passage into the Earth's sphere of influence.

I would imagine it's crossed back into the Earth's sphere of influence by now, though.

-Doug  (With my shield, not yet upon it)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Phillip Clark on 10/29/2014 04:22 PM
Doug, an earlier posting here on the morning of October 28th said that the lunar fly-by had taken place "that night" which I assume is overnight October 27-28.   So that is about 3-3.5 days after launch at 18:00 GMT on October 24th.

If Zarya is right about a recovery on October 31st evening then that fits.   But the Chinese had talked about a flight lasting for ~8 days.   Of course, the Chinese might be giving us a lot of rounding.

It would be nice for the Chinese to give an official periselene date, time and distance, but I don't think that they have done yet.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Moe Grills on 10/29/2014 04:24 PM
  The trajectory makes no sense as far as sample-return missions go.
But for a man-rated spacecraft on a cislunar mission?
The Chinese space project planners obviously had that sort of thing in mind. WOOHOOOO!!!
Human beings are FINALLY going to return to the moon at the cusp of the next decade.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Dalhousie on 10/29/2014 11:13 PM
It's testing the sample return capsule and relevant velocities, not the trajectory.  the human related stuff is  bonus I assume.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Phillip Clark on 10/29/2014 11:35 PM
Whilst playing with some Chang'E programme numbers, I noticed that the Chang'E 5 Precursor (as I call this mission) was launched on the seventh anniversary of the Chang'E 1 launch.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: satwatcher on 10/29/2014 11:37 PM
Doug, an earlier posting here on the morning of October 28th said that the lunar fly-by had taken place "that night" which I assume is overnight October 27-28.   So that is about 3-3.5 days after launch at 18:00 GMT on October 24th.

Note that you are one day out; the launch was at 18:00UTC on October 23rd.

Based on the available orbital elements shortly after TLI show that it passed over the 4 day lunar antipode. This means the flyby would occur 4 days after launch, and this is supported by the propagated trajectory based on those orbital elements. Furthermore, the propagated trajectory is very similar to that shown on the mission control displays (see earlier in this thread).

The propagated trajectory is consistent with a free return with a reentry around 21:36UT on October 31st. Spaceflight 101 (http://www.spaceflight101.com/change-5-test-mission-updates.html) reported "A clock seen in video from mission control indicates that the Return Vehicle will arrive back at Earth on October 31 at 21:53 UTC for a mission duration of eight days and four hours" which is consistent with the prediction from the propagated trajectory.

Finally, comparing cloud patterns and location of the terminator from the gorgeous shot of the Moon and Earth suggests the image was taken between 19 and 20UT on October 27th; the propagated trajectory sets the closest approach at 19:03UT on that day.

Moderators note: Please, use the 'Attach' feature to publish the photos.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Phillip Clark on 10/30/2014 12:23 AM
Thank you Satwatcher!   Old age and senility seem to be catching up with me.   Plugging October 23rd into my own software gives the same lunar GHA at launch as seen for Chang'E 3.

However, if we assume a parking orbit at 28.5-31 deg to the equator and a transit time of ~97 hours to periselene then we have a theoretical GHA of 55-75 deg, which is more than 10 deg less than the actual value.

Maybe some exact data concerning the periselene date/time and distance from the Chinese will answer some questions - if the data are made available sometime.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: russianhalo117 on 10/30/2014 04:32 AM
Have we confirmed the fate of the mother SC post capsule sep?
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: satwatcher on 10/30/2014 11:58 AM
Zarya.info (https://twitter.com/Zarya_Info/status/527760260527030273) posted two NOTAMs for the reentry of Chang'e 5T1; the first NOTAM bounds the area where the skip reentry will occur, the other smaller one the final landing location. As he reported earlier, the latter coincides with the Shenzhou landing region.

The NOTAMs are valid from 22:19UTC to 22:49UTC on October 31st. This is about 45 minutes later than the 21:36UT reentry time predicted from the trajectory propagated from the pre-flyby JSpOC elements. Zarya.info (http://www.zarya.info/Calendar.php) kindly shared the NOTAMs with me and they show that at 22:19UT the propagated return trajectory is coplanar with the NOTAMs. This confirms that the mid-course corrections altered the trajectory, probably already on the outbound leg. This matches the timing of the Earth-Moon picture that Chang'e 5T1 took, as that appears to have been taken later than predicted by the propagated trajectory.

This plot shows the propagated trajectory aligning with the NOTAMs. Hopefully JSpOC will track and release TLEs of Chang'e 5T1 on its inbound leg.

Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: satwatcher on 10/30/2014 12:03 PM
The large NOTAM area may actually mean that the Chang'e 5T1 bus will reenter the atmosphere...
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Nighthawk on 10/30/2014 12:33 PM
The large NOTAM area may actually mean that the Chang'e 5T1 bus will reenter the atmosphere...
probably not, offical reports indicate that the bus will miss home earth and continue on her new trajectory/orbit (type not clear yet).
Here is the source: http://zhuanti.spacechina.com/n763863/n763893/c768349/content.html
Quote
飞行试验器...由服务舱和返回器两部分组成,服务舱以嫦娥二号卫星平台为基础研制,具备留轨开展科研试验功能
Rough translation: The precursor...consists of the orbiter and the lander...the orbiter is based on CE2 probe and has the capability of remaining on orbit and conducting experiments.

The huge NOTAM zone, I presume, is due to the uncertain trajectory of the reentry, as well as the long range of two reentries. The parameters of the upper atmosphere are subject to some uncertainties, so the GNC on board may be improvising when heading for the land zone. 
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 10/31/2014 09:15 AM
Landing site in Inner Mongolia is now prepared to receive the capsule back to Earth in half a day's time. Weather forecasts shows that the landing area will be partly clear at landing time, with 30-40% cloud coverage, 6-8 m/s winds, temperature of -4 to -6 degrees Celsius and visibility of 20 km.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/2014-10/31/c_1113064853.htm (http://news.xinhuanet.com/2014-10/31/c_1113064853.htm)

TV news report: http://news.cntv.cn/2014/10/31/VIDE1414741681548517.shtml (http://news.cntv.cn/2014/10/31/VIDE1414741681548517.shtml)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 10/31/2014 09:22 AM
BTW for those who were wondering about mid-course corrections: 2 were done on the 24th and the 25th while on the way to the Moon. The next 2 planned ones were canceled as they were not required. Another should have been done yesterday to put the spacecraft towards re-entry.

The entry corridor has a re-entry angle margin of 0.2 degrees, and while entering the atmosphere there will be 2 black-out periods, each more than 2 minutes long.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/tech/2014-10/30/c_1113051409.htm (http://news.xinhuanet.com/tech/2014-10/30/c_1113051409.htm)

http://politics.people.com.cn/n/2014/1031/c70731-25946150.html (http://politics.people.com.cn/n/2014/1031/c70731-25946150.html)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Bob Shaw on 10/31/2014 09:37 AM
Top, the CE5 image. Middle, a shot from the pilot episode of Space 1999. Bottom, the middle image flipped horizontally.

Conclusion: the Chinese are filming this mission on a soundstage.

That Earth/Moon view was, I think, originally used in the end credits of Gerry Anderson's UFO - a far superior show with much more interesting characters (not to mention the silvery charms of Ms Drake). And, the *real* shot was taken by Lunar Orbiter in 1967 (?) - see the recovered and enhanced version on the LOIRP website.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: input~2 on 10/31/2014 09:42 AM
Here is the NOTAM
A2192/14 -  A TEMPORARY RESTRICTED AREA ESTABLISHED BOUNDED BY: N330119E0810542-N294225E0825700-N404428E1123004-N440907E1113235 BACK TO START WI CHINA BOUNDARY, VERTICAL LIMITS:SFC-UNL. GND - UNL, 31 OCT 22:19 2014 UNTIL 31 OCT 22:49 2014. CREATED: 30 OCT 02:57 2014
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: satwatcher on 10/31/2014 09:54 AM
Here is the NOTAM
A2192/14 -  A TEMPORARY RESTRICTED AREA ESTABLISHED BOUNDED BY: N330119E0810542-N294225E0825700-N404428E1123004-N440907E1113235 BACK TO START WI CHINA BOUNDARY, VERTICAL LIMITS:SFC-UNL. GND - UNL, 31 OCT 22:19 2014 UNTIL 31 OCT 22:49 2014. CREATED: 30 OCT 02:57 2014

There is also A2191/14 which denotes the much smaller landing area.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: plutogno on 10/31/2014 10:05 AM
it would be fun to see how air traffic copes with such a large restricted area! too bad most of it is not covered by flightradar24.com
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: input~2 on 10/31/2014 03:41 PM
There is also A2191/14 which denotes the much smaller landing area.
Here it is
A2191/14 - A TEMPORARY RESTRICTED AREA ESTABLISHED BOUNDED BY: N423908E1101001-N414110E1102656-N420134E1124138-N430003E1122606 BACK TO START.VERTICAL LIMITS:SFC-UNL. GND - UNL, 31 OCT 22:19 2014 UNTIL 31 OCT 22:49 2014. CREATED: 30 OCT 02:48 2014
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 10/31/2014 06:48 PM
This is probably the wrong time to report on this, but Chang'e 5-T1's return capsule should be getting its minutes of horror and lands in about 3 hours from now. It looks like there won't be any live updates so maybe wait for the news at 23:00 UTC...
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: satwatcher on 10/31/2014 07:59 PM
Less than two hours to go... Range should now be around 25000 km with the speed at 5 km/s and increasing.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 10/31/2014 08:56 PM
Not exactly the most important news right now, but Chang'e 5-T1's return capsule should be flying on its own by now. Standing by for updates...
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 10/31/2014 08:57 PM
Xinhua News just confirmed that the return capsule has separated from the satellite bus.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: satwatcher on 10/31/2014 09:08 PM
Chang'e 5T1 should be at 3000 km altitude over South Africa. Velocity now 9 km/s.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 10/31/2014 09:27 PM
5 minutes earlier....

China Xinhua News @XHNews
China's returning lunar orbiter makes skip re-entry before plunging into atmosphere for a much anticipated home coming

On the Chinese side the updates are lagging behind.....  ::)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: satwatcher on 10/31/2014 09:29 PM
On the Chinese side the updates are lagging behind.....  ::)
Unfortunately it is probably all we have...
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Mark McCombs on 10/31/2014 09:36 PM
China's returning lunar orbiter shoots out the parachute to land on earth

https://twitter.com/XHNews
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: satwatcher on 10/31/2014 09:37 PM
On parachutes? (https://twitter.com/XHNews/status/528314073763418112)

Quote
China Xinhua News ‏@XHNews 2m2 minutes ago

China's returning lunar orbiter shoots out the parachute to land on earth
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 10/31/2014 09:38 PM
5 minutes earlier....

China Xinhua News @XHNews
China's returning lunar orbiter makes skip re-entry before plunging into atmosphere for a much anticipated home coming

On the Chinese side the updates are lagging behind.....  ::)

Why the eye roll?  They probably can't type faster than you can.

What I mean is that Xinhua News seems to be ahead on releasing info on Twitter than back in China on the Chinese news....

Anyway from the Chinese side it was confirmed that the descent capsule is now flying as planned on the re-entry corridor right now.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 10/31/2014 09:43 PM
China Xinhua News @XHNews 
Return capsule of China's test lunar orbiter lands successfully in north China's Inner Mongolia
 ;D
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 10/31/2014 09:47 PM
Landing seems to be at 22:42 UTC.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Dalhousie on 10/31/2014 09:50 PM
Good news on a bad news day 8)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: satwatcher on 10/31/2014 09:57 PM
It'll be interesting to see if the orbiter has raised its perigee to remain in an eccentric orbit.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 10/31/2014 10:03 PM
Apparently the capsule has been located within 5 minutes after touchdown. All helicopters are on site.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Chris Bergin on 10/31/2014 10:15 PM
China Xinhua News @XHNews 
Return capsule of China's test lunar orbiter lands successfully in north China's Inner Mongolia
 ;D


Welcome home!
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: satwatcher on 10/31/2014 10:22 PM
News story on Xinhua (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2014-11/01/c_133757657.htm).

A good ending to an odd week in spaceflight.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: elakdawalla on 10/31/2014 10:28 PM
The Xinhua story says:

Quote
The test lunar orbiter, nicknamed "Xiaofei" on Chinese social networks

What is the significance of the name "Xiaofei", does anybody know?
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: jcm on 10/31/2014 10:32 PM
http://www.chinanews.com/gn/2014/11-01/6739522.shtml
refers to the vehicle as
中国探月工程三期再入返回飞行试验器

Zhongguo tanyue gongcheng san qi zai ru fanhui feixing shiyan qi
Chinese Lunar Exploration Program Phase 3 Reentry Return Flight Tester

(no wonder the Chinese social networks are looking for a snappier name)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Liss on 10/31/2014 10:35 PM
小飞: 小 (xiao) means small and 飞 (fei) means to fly.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 10/31/2014 10:46 PM
The Xinhua story says:

Quote
The test lunar orbiter, nicknamed "Xiaofei" on Chinese social networks

What is the significance of the name "Xiaofei", does anybody know?

A nickname - it literally means "little flyer".  ;)

And here it is! (photos from Xinhua News)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: cjd on 10/31/2014 11:05 PM
Welcome back
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: savuporo on 10/31/2014 11:09 PM
for some reason this picture looks a lot like they are checking if the chimp is OK...
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 10/31/2014 11:17 PM
Some key re-entry events as reported by http://www.chinanews.com/gn/2014/11-01/6739528.shtml (http://www.chinanews.com/gn/2014/11-01/6739528.shtml):

(all times in UTC)
21:53 - descent capsule separation at 5000 km from Earth
21:56 - main satellite bus performs burn to move away from capsule and goes back into high Earth orbit
22:10 - descent capsule enters re-entry attitude
22:12 - descent capsule enters 1st black-out as it dips into the atmosphere at 120 km altitude
22:15 - descent capsule exits 1st black-out on short ascent period
22:22 - descent capsule enters 2nd black-out
22:26 - descent capsule exits 2nd black-out
22:32 - parachute deployment at 10 km high
22:42 - touchdown
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 10/31/2014 11:21 PM
Congratulations to China for the first successful capsule to return from around the Moon in over 38 years! That was Luna 24 which returned on 22 August 1976 (I was in Grade 7 in primary school then). Of course, Luna 24 was returning samples from the Lunar surface, which the Chinese have yet to do. In terms of a similar mission profile, this was last achieved by Zond 8 which returned on 27 October 1970, just over 44 years ago.

Looks like one side is scorched a lot more than the other sides. Is that normal for capsules of this type?
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 10/31/2014 11:23 PM
for some reason this picture looks a lot like they are checking if the chimp is OK...

Unfortunately the hatch is too small to fit in a chimp....  ;)

(I think some Chinese private company did put in kits carrying bacteria and plants for the ride around the Moon though)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Dalhousie on 10/31/2014 11:37 PM
for some reason this picture looks a lot like they are checking if the chimp is OK...

Unfortunately the hatch is too small to fit in a chimp....  ;)

(I think some Chinese private company did put in kits carrying bacteria and plants for the ride around the Moon though)

So was this effectively a life support system test as well?
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Dalhousie on 11/01/2014 12:02 AM

Looks like one side is scorched a lot more than the other sides. Is that normal for capsules of this type?

Seems to be for this shape. E.g.

Soyuz http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/gallery/images/station/crew-9/hires/jsc2004e47547.jpg

Shenzhou http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/Shenzhou5-3.JPG
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Phillip Clark on 11/01/2014 12:17 AM
The successful recovery of the descent module is excellent news - congratulations to China!

Now to see what they do with the DFH-3A derived bus.

I am lousy at scaling, but the descent module looks to be about 1 metre diameter and 1 metre high, so about 1/3rd scale of the Shenzhou descent module.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Lsquirrel on 11/01/2014 01:08 AM
The successful recovery of the descent module is excellent news - congratulations to China!

Now to see what they do with the DFH-3A derived bus.

I am lousy at scaling, but the descent module looks to be about 1 metre diameter and 1 metre high, so about 1/3rd scale of the Shenzhou descent module.

the orbiter has maneuvered, transfer to moon
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: elakdawalla on 11/01/2014 01:33 AM
This looks like a pretty dramatic retelling of the reentry (via @Yershan on Twitter (http://"https://twitter.com/Yershan/status/528366153203470336"))
http://www.81.cn/jwgz/2014-11/01/content_6206104.htm
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: cscott on 11/01/2014 01:37 AM
Looks like one side is scorched a lot more than the other sides. Is that normal for capsules of this type?

I'm not a rocket scientist but...

I believe the capsule is deliberately weighed so that one side always flies "down".  The asymmetric COG allows trajectory corrections via rotating the craft.  From wiki:
Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_capsule
The Apollo Command Module reentered with the center of mass offset from the center line; this caused the capsule to assume an angled attitude through the air, providing a sideways lift to be used for directional control. Rotational thrusters were used to steer the capsule under either automatic or manual control by changing the lift vector.

You'd expect the "down" side to be charred more.

See the SpaceX dragon for instance:
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Dalhousie on 11/01/2014 01:56 AM
You see it on Apollo as well

Apollo 11 http://moonpans.com/apollo_11/apollo_11_splashdown.jpg


Apollo 13 http://www.udel.edu/physics/scen103/ZING/Apollo13Recovery.jpg
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Dalhousie on 11/01/2014 02:55 AM
Some video http://news.cntv.cn/2014/11/01/ARTI1414801849741743.shtml
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: satwatcher on 11/01/2014 06:48 AM
There's a good video that explains the usage of lift during the Soyuz reentryhere (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=-l7MM9yoxII#t=716).

Another, perhaps even better video, deals with the skip reentry used on Apollo, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW5ozq4Tqew (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW5ozq4Tqew).

Also, see the Apollo 11 Flight Journal at 191:58:13 (http://history.nasa.gov/ap11fj/26day9-reentry.htm) where Ron Evans explains the backup procedure for the CM attitude during reentry to Mike Collins, as the landing point had to be moved up range due to thunderstorms at the original landing point.

Quote
191:58:13 Evans: Okay, Mike. Of course, this is in the event the G&N and the EMS quits and you have to fly the constant-g; and what we're trying to do is to extend the constant-g range from 1,100 to 1,500 miles. We've run this procedure in the simulator, and it works fine. Basically, I'll go through it - just go through it, and then if you have any questions, come back. But it's the same lift vector up until Max g, and then lift vector down, and then modulate the lift vector until g-dot goes to zero. Okay, this procedure is essentially the same so far. And then hold g-dot zero until you pass the Retro elapsed time of V-circular; and then after you pass this Retro elapsed time of V-circular, roll to a gimbal angle of 45 degrees, and then hold this constant bank angle of 45 degrees until you come to the Retro elapsed time of drogues. Over.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 11/01/2014 06:58 AM
Recovery operations:
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: plutogno on 11/01/2014 07:10 AM
Some video http://news.cntv.cn/2014/11/01/ARTI1414801849741743.shtml

wow! are those orbiter separation pictures available somewhere?
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: MATTBLAK on 11/01/2014 07:30 AM
When I heard that the spacecraft had successfully made it back - I have to confess that I got a lump in my throat! I was so moved that a human-made craft had traversed cislunar space and made it safely back again. I badly want to see humans make this trip again, or even a little regolith. All I can say now is; well done and

GO CHINA!! :)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: plutogno on 11/01/2014 08:11 AM
n terms of a similar mission profile, this was last achieved by Zond 8 which returned on 27 October 1970, just over 44 years ago.

I remember... I was a one month old small lump of cells back then ;)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Skylab on 11/01/2014 01:22 PM
Wow, nicely done China and congrats! Surface/regolith samples next.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: otisbow on 11/01/2014 01:25 PM
WOW...The Chinese now  have a "baby Soyuz!"
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 11/01/2014 01:50 PM
According to http://www.81.cn/jwgz/2014-11/01/content_6206266.htm (http://www.81.cn/jwgz/2014-11/01/content_6206266.htm), the main satellite will head for EM-L2, flying around the point 3 times before heading to lunar orbit to test out flight control procedures for the Chang'e 5 sample return mission.  8)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Phillip Clark on 11/01/2014 02:21 PM
WOW...The Chinese now  have a "baby Soyuz!"

"Baby Shenzhou".
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: plutogno on 11/01/2014 02:37 PM
the main satellite will head for EM-L2, flying around the point 3 times

this means we may see a farside landing in the future...
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: baldusi on 11/01/2014 02:48 PM
Go China! Congratulations. I was literally a month old when Luna last returned from the Moon. I've waited a whole life for this. Let's make the lunar return before the 50th anniversary of Apollo 11.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: method on 11/01/2014 03:18 PM
With this success, I guess two things :
- a mission to farside of the moon with an automatic lander ;
- a manned circumlunar flight in 2019 to celebrate the creation of PRC
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Phillip Clark on 11/01/2014 03:34 PM
With this success, I guess two things :
- a mission to farside of the moon with an automatic lander ;
- a manned circumlunar flight in 2019 to celebrate the creation of PRC

There are some proposed versions of the CZ-7 which can fly a full Shenzhou around the Moon like L-1/Zond: so can the CZ-5, of course.   And a 2019 timeline would mark the 50th anniversary of Apollo 11 of course.

I am not convinced that this is part of China's plans but if Chang'E 6 recovered China's second lunar samples within a month or two of such a flight then it would be impressive.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Apollo-phill on 11/01/2014 06:03 PM
Well done to China on this mission.

Excellent flight and congratulations on the skip entry procedures.


A-P
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Stan Black on 11/01/2014 08:43 PM
WOW...The Chinese now  have a "baby Soyuz!"

"Baby Shenzhou".

He has the looks of both his parents.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Dalhousie on 11/02/2014 01:24 AM
According to http://www.81.cn/jwgz/2014-11/01/content_6206266.htm (http://www.81.cn/jwgz/2014-11/01/content_6206266.htm), the main satellite will head for EM-L2, flying around the point 3 times before heading to lunar orbit to test out flight control procedures for the Chang'e 5 sample return mission.  8)

Interesting!  So does the carrier have a separate name?
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: rusty on 11/02/2014 02:08 AM
Congratulations to China for the first successful capsule to return from around the Moon in over 38 years!
... Looks like one side is scorched a lot more than the other sides. Is that normal for capsules of this type?
Congratulations are in order and the more successful spaceflights, the better. But that doesn't mean there aren't lessons to be learned and areas to be improved on revealed here.

Directional - Yes as others have explained. Scorched - It's ruined, possibly unsurvivable and I hope humans never experience that ride.
Image 1: TPS is completely gone in some places, nothing but ash lattice in others. Metal seems to have endured extreme heating and warping in places and the heat shield is deformed in places.
Image 2: The capsule most likely endured excessive thermal expansion based on the TPS fissures and cracking around every port - on all sides of Shenzhou, not just the "scorched side".
(http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=34162.0;attach=618842;image)
(http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=34162.0;attach=618902;image)
Even with a complete rethink of the TPS and thermal environment, that shape of capsule (Soyuz, Shenzhou, Dragon) should not, must not be used for human space travel BEO. Skip re-entry appeared the solution to reduce the massive g's otherwise experienced; Layering on TPS and developing a new heat shield may alleviate the heating caused by skip re-entry; But with even the slightest error or correction, you're screwed. As stated by China, a 0.02 degree re-entry deviation is total loss. That alone is a margin too small for human spaceflight. Add up everything else and it's simply a terrible idea - as some have been pointing out a long time. I hope sense finally prevails over corporate and/or national pride and this Lunar-gumdrop notion is haulted.

*edit: Images linked from other posts went supersized.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Moe Grills on 11/02/2014 02:24 AM
With this success, I guess two things :
- a mission to farside of the moon with an automatic lander ;
- a manned circumlunar flight in 2019 to celebrate the creation of PRC
The people who run China's space program have telegraphed their moves with this successful mission.
They will use the info and experience from this mission to  (one) make an unmanned lunar sample return mission happen this decade, if all goes well...and (two) send at least one taikonaut circumnavigating the moon
before the end of this decade. I agree with you sir.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Moe Grills on 11/02/2014 02:29 AM
Congratulations to China for the first successful capsule to return from around the Moon in over 38 years!
... Looks like one side is scorched a lot more than the other sides. Is that normal for capsules of this type?
Congratulations are in order and the more successful spaceflights, the better. But that doesn't mean there aren't lessons to be learned and areas to be improved on revealed here.

Directional - Yes as others have explained. Scorched - It's ruined, possibly unsurvivable and I hope humans never experience that ride.
Image 1: TPS is completely gone in some places, nothing but ash lattice in others. Metal seems to have endured extreme heating and warping in places and the heat shield is deformed in places.
Image 2: The capsule most likely endured excessive thermal expansion based on the TPS fissures and cracking around every port - on all sides of Shenzhou, not just the "scorched side".
(http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=34162.0;attach=618842;image)
(http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=34162.0;attach=618902;image)
Even with a complete rethink of the TPS and thermal environment, that shape of capsule (Soyuz, Shenzhou, Dragon) should not, must not be used for human space travel BEO. Skip re-entry appeared the solution to reduce the massive g's otherwise experienced; Layering on TPS and developing a new heat shield may alleviate the heating caused by skip re-entry; But with even the slightest error or correction, you're screwed. As stated by China, a 0.02 degree re-entry deviation is total loss. That alone is a margin too small for human spaceflight. Add up everything else and it's simply a terrible idea - as some have been pointing out a long time. I hope sense finally prevails over corporate and/or national pride and this Lunar-gumdrop notion is haulted.

*edit: Images linked from other posts went supersized.

The Chinese will learn from this mission and make the next one work right. "Too small a margin" is rather arbitrary. Compare the margin to landing on an aircraft carrier in the dark with a pitching deck with an aircraft that's coming in at over 150mph..
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: rusty on 11/02/2014 02:38 AM
I hope sense finally prevails over corporate and/or national pride and this Lunar-gumdrop notion is haulted.
The Chinese will learn from this mission and make the next one work right.
I don't doubt that course of action, other than the part about making something work that never can. Thanks for proving my point, though hope springs eternal. Do you think Musk is that foolish too?
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: hop on 11/02/2014 02:38 AM
Directional - Yes as others have explained. Scorched - It's ruined, possibly unsurvivable and I hope humans never experience that ride.
Image 1: TPS is completely gone in some places, nothing but ash lattice in others. Metal seems to have endured extreme heating and warping in places and the heat shield is deformed in places.
Image 2: The capsule most likely endured excessive thermal expansion based on the TPS fissures and cracking around every port - on all sides of Shenzhou, not just the "scorched side".
Is this just your interpretation, or do you have sources indicating there was a failure? Unless you have other sources of information, it would seem very premature to assume there was a failure based on a few images.

Note that this vehicle is not intended to return living things, it's designed to return rock samples. Heating beyond the normal Lunar temperature range would probably be undesirable, but it doesn't have the same requirements as a crew capsule.

edit:
The fact that the parachute and other deployments worked suggests that it didn't get too badly cooked.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: plutogno on 11/02/2014 06:02 AM
to me, the TPS does not look any worse than a "routine" Soyuz reentry.
as for a lunar manned mission, don't hold your breath. the Chinese have clearly stated that no such mission is planned for the time being, and their space program is extremely pragmatic, without any particular inclination for stunts or "space spectaculars". I am ready to bet that there will not be a human mission before 2030 at the earliest.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: ncb1397 on 11/02/2014 06:18 AM
to me, the TPS does not look any worse than a "routine" Soyuz reentry.
as for a lunar manned mission, don't hold your breath. the Chinese have clearly stated that no such mission is planned for the time being, and their space program is extremely pragmatic, without any particular inclination for stunts or "space spectaculars". I am ready to bet that there will not be a human mission before 2030 at the earliest.

The Chinese Lunar Exploration Program insignia:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/15/CLEP.png/150px-CLEP.png)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: savuporo on 11/02/2014 06:45 AM
The Chinese Lunar Exploration Program insignia:

Yep. Also, the return capsule looks remarkably unlike Luna-16 or 24 capsule. Rather, it looks a lot like scaled down Shenzou.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Dalhousie on 11/02/2014 07:33 AM
Congratulations to China for the first successful capsule to return from around the Moon in over 38 years!
... Looks like one side is scorched a lot more than the other sides. Is that normal for capsules of this type?
Congratulations are in order and the more successful spaceflights, the better. But that doesn't mean there aren't lessons to be learned and areas to be improved on revealed here.

Directional - Yes as others have explained. Scorched - It's ruined, possibly unsurvivable and I hope humans never experience that ride.
Image 1: TPS is completely gone in some places, nothing but ash lattice in others. Metal seems to have endured extreme heating and warping in places and the heat shield is deformed in places.
Image 2: The capsule most likely endured excessive thermal expansion based on the TPS fissures and cracking around every port - on all sides of Shenzhou, not just the "scorched side".
(http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=34162.0;attach=618842;image)
(http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=34162.0;attach=618902;image)
Even with a complete rethink of the TPS and thermal environment, that shape of capsule (Soyuz, Shenzhou, Dragon) should not, must not be used for human space travel BEO. Skip re-entry appeared the solution to reduce the massive g's otherwise experienced; Layering on TPS and developing a new heat shield may alleviate the heating caused by skip re-entry; But with even the slightest error or correction, you're screwed. As stated by China, a 0.02 degree re-entry deviation is total loss. That alone is a margin too small for human spaceflight. Add up everything else and it's simply a terrible idea - as some have been pointing out a long time. I hope sense finally prevails over corporate and/or national pride and this Lunar-gumdrop notion is haulted.

*edit: Images linked from other posts went supersized.

Doesn't look any worse than Apollo 11 or Apollo 12

Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Dalhousie on 11/02/2014 08:42 AM
Or Apollo 10 and 7.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: NovaSilisko on 11/02/2014 09:09 AM
And a good shot of 11 immiediately after splashdown, shows just how scorched it was immiediately after the mission http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Splashdown_3.jpg

I don't think the CE5T1 scorching is anything particularly out of the ordinary, especially for lunar return velocities.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: plutogno on 11/02/2014 09:13 AM
I don't think the CE5T1 scorching is anything particularly out of the ordinary, especially for lunar return velocities.

keep in mind, however, that with the skip trajectory of CE-5T1 the atmospheric entry speed is reduced, compared to a lunar return.
To compare apples and apples, the scorching of the capsule should be compared to that of a LEO return, not a lunar return.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Kryten on 11/02/2014 09:18 AM
 Surely apples to apples would be a comparison with a Zond? Zond 5 is supposedly on display-does anyone have photographs?
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Star One on 11/02/2014 09:23 AM

Surely apples to apples would be a comparison with a Zond? Zond 5 is supposedly on display-does anyone have photographs?

Scroll down in this article.

http://io9.com/the-first-animals-in-space-1399364861
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: plutogno on 11/02/2014 09:28 AM
Surely apples to apples would be a comparison with a Zond? Zond 5 is supposedly on display-does anyone have photographs?

IIRC only Zond 7 and 8 managed to land (without crashing like Zond 6) after a skip trajectory. Zond 5 made a direct entry
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Dalhousie on 11/02/2014 10:18 AM
I don't think the CE5T1 scorching is anything particularly out of the ordinary, especially for lunar return velocities.

keep in mind, however, that with the skip trajectory of CE-5T1 the atmospheric entry speed is reduced, compared to a lunar return.
To compare apples and apples, the scorching of the capsule should be compared to that of a LEO return, not a lunar return.

See the Apollo 7 photo.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Dalhousie on 11/02/2014 10:22 AM
I don't think the CE5T1 scorching is anything particularly out of the ordinary, especially for lunar return velocities.

keep in mind, however, that with the skip trajectory of CE-5T1 the atmospheric entry speed is reduced, compared to a lunar return.
To compare apples and apples, the scorching of the capsule should be compared to that of a LEO return, not a lunar return.

I have already linked to a Shenzhou photo, but here is another view of Sz-5.

Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Dalhousie on 11/02/2014 10:25 AM
And this unnamed Soyuz

Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: plutogno on 11/02/2014 10:29 AM
in these images you can clearly see the non-symmetrical erosion of the TPS
http://i.imgur.com/w8VlNs3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/tVSkue6.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3l8iC0n.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/6jahM5o.jpg
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Dalhousie on 11/02/2014 10:42 AM
Zond 7.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Lsquirrel on 11/02/2014 12:18 PM
Numerical Predictor Corrector Guidance......
CEV,where are U? CE-V T1 have done it! :)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Nordren on 11/02/2014 05:23 PM
Yang Mengfei, commander-in-chief for the lunar exploration program at CASC:

"We will run some tests on the capsule based on the degree of burns on its surface. Then we will conduct an analysis based on the data using telemetry. From what we have seen, the capsule is in good condition. It has completed the planned mission and fullfilled all the requirements. The orbiter's trip has been very productive. It will lay a solid foundation for our future space program."
http://english.cri.cn/12394/2014/11/02/2982s850547.htm (http://english.cri.cn/12394/2014/11/02/2982s850547.htm)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Blackstar on 11/02/2014 07:25 PM
to me, the TPS does not look any worse than a "routine" Soyuz reentry.
as for a lunar manned mission, don't hold your breath. the Chinese have clearly stated that no such mission is planned for the time being, and their space program is extremely pragmatic, without any particular inclination for stunts or "space spectaculars". I am ready to bet that there will not be a human mission before 2030 at the earliest.

Yes. China has been pretty clear, and consistent, about stating their human spaceflight goals. And so far they don't have any active plans to send humans to the Moon. They do have space station plans. They have also started human lunar spaceflight studies. But studies are not plans.

Here's a good article about numerous past times when people claimed that China had human lunar ambitions:

http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1565/1
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Zero-G on 11/02/2014 10:23 PM
I don't know if this has been mentioned here before, but there seems to be a significant difference in the landing sequence of this reentry vehicle compared to any Shenzhou (or Soyuz) descent module: It looks like the base heat-shield has not been jettisoned before landing (see pics below). I guess that there is no need to cushion the touchdown by soft-landing retro-rockets, because there are no humans on board, and rocks can take a much harder bump than humans. Therefore it is not necessary to jettison the base heat-shield.
Any thoughts?

Looking at the pics, the material around the edge of the base looks different than the material in the center. Is this a different TPS material or has the TPS been burnt away, exposing the base structure?
Also, on the right there are to parallel notches near the edge. They look to regular to have been caused accidentally by reentry heat. What could be their function?
Any ideas?
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Blackstar on 11/02/2014 11:44 PM
If you compare this reentry vehicle to others like Stardust and Genesis, the Luna 24 vehicle, and even the proposed reentry vehicle for NASA's lunar sample return, this vehicle is much larger.

Why?

My early hypothesis has been that China is developing an over-sized robotic lunar capability because they want to be able to demonstrate a subscale human lunar landing capability. In other words, if they do lunar sample return successfully, they can then go to the leadership and say "We only need to scale this up by X% to have a human vehicle."

But could the explanation actually be that they need a larger vehicle for their skip reentry capability? Could it be dictated by the physics and not the programmatics?

Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: hop on 11/03/2014 12:44 AM
My early hypothesis has been that China is developing an over-sized robotic lunar capability because they want to be able to demonstrate a subscale human lunar landing capability. In other words, if they do lunar sample return successfully, they can then go to the leadership and say "We only need to scale this up by X% to have a human vehicle."
That seems like the best explanation to me.
Quote
But could the explanation actually be that they need a larger vehicle for their skip reentry capability? Could it be dictated by the physics and not the programmatics?
Why do they even need a skip re-entry for rocks? The explanation was for heating, but that requirement would be a product of the capsule design, not an inherent characteristic of lunar return. It's certainly possible to design a small return capsule that doesn't need to skip, AFAIK the Luna return capsules were simple ballistic spheres. For that matter, a couple of the Zonds survived direct entries.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Dalhousie on 11/03/2014 01:16 AM
My early hypothesis has been that China is developing an over-sized robotic lunar capability because they want to be able to demonstrate a subscale human lunar landing capability. In other words, if they do lunar sample return successfully, they can then go to the leadership and say "We only need to scale this up by X% to have a human vehicle."
That seems like the best explanation to me.
Quote
But could the explanation actually be that they need a larger vehicle for their skip reentry capability? Could it be dictated by the physics and not the programmatics?
Why do they even need a skip re-entry for rocks? The explanation was for heating, but that requirement would be a product of the capsule design, not an inherent characteristic of lunar return. It's certainly possible to design a small return capsule that doesn't need to skip, AFAIK the Luna return capsules were simple ballistic spheres. For that matter, a couple of the Zonds survived direct entries.

I think it is clear that the program is over engineered for a minimalistic sample return mission, and has to  be considered to be a sample return + test program for a human mission and potentially Mars sample return.

On the Soviet LSR missions, does anyone have any data on entry velocities and G loads of the spherical entry capsule (I have tounched Luna 24's :))
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Blackstar on 11/03/2014 02:45 AM
Why do they even need a skip re-entry for rocks? The explanation was for heating, but that requirement would be a product of the capsule design, not an inherent characteristic of lunar return. It's certainly possible to design a small return capsule that doesn't need to skip, AFAIK the Luna return capsules were simple ballistic spheres. For that matter, a couple of the Zonds survived direct entries.

It may be required to expand the landing and/or return options. For example, the Soviet lunar sample return missions used a relatively simple and safe return profile. But that limited them to a very narrow range of options for where they could land.

The CE-5T1 method might allow China to bring the capsule back when the landing site is not in the optimal position, because it can skip off the atmosphere and then come down in the entry zone.

But this really requires a trajectory expert to answer.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: heinkel174 on 11/03/2014 03:46 AM
To my untrained eye the scorch looks totally normal compared with other capsules. Although I really don’t want to further that baseless speculation, I feel compelled to point this out:

http://scitech.people.com.cn/n/2014/1102/c1007-25958456.html (http://scitech.people.com.cn/n/2014/1102/c1007-25958456.html)

According to Deputy Chief Engineer of the mission Hao Xifan, The TPS survived the re-entry BETTER than expected. Actually it is closer to the optimistic end of estimation and the ablated depth is smaller than predicted.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: satwatcher on 11/03/2014 07:51 AM
The CE-5T1 method might allow China to bring the capsule back when the landing site is not in the optimal position, because it can skip off the atmosphere and then come down in the entry zone.

You are right.

For the most fuel efficient trajectories you would inject and reenter at the location of the lunar antipode on the Earth's surface at the time of lunar flyby. For the case of Chang'e 5T1 the antipode was at latitude 18 deg, while the landing area has a latitude of 41.5 deg. The skip reentry allows for much more flexibility in reaching specific landing areas.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: satwatcher on 11/03/2014 07:58 AM
Looking at the pics, the material around the edge of the base looks different than the material in the center. Is this a different TPS material or has the TPS been burnt away, exposing the base structure?
Also, on the right there are to parallel notches near the edge. They look to regular to have been caused accidentally by reentry heat. What could be their function?
Any ideas?

Since this was specifically a test mission it may not be unlikely that the irregularities were intentionally added to the TPS to study its effects on the TPS integrity and the trajectory.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Blackstar on 11/03/2014 10:08 PM
So the carrier spacecraft is going back to L2, could go into lunar orbit, and could--although it is unlikely--serve as a communications relay for a future farside lunar lander. Now that would be pretty darn interesting. It would be both a major engineering feat and if they returned samples from the South Pole-Aitken Basin, would also be a major scientific feat as well:

http://www.planetary.org/blogs/emily-lakdawalla/2014/11031013-change-5-test-vehicle-flying.html

Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: edkyle99 on 11/03/2014 11:02 PM
So the carrier spacecraft is going back to L2, could go into lunar orbit, and could--although it is unlikely--serve as a communications relay for a future farside lunar lander. Now that would be pretty darn interesting. It would be both a major engineering feat and if they returned samples from the South Pole-Aitken Basin, would also be a major scientific feat as well:
http://www.planetary.org/blogs/emily-lakdawalla/2014/11031013-change-5-test-vehicle-flying.html
And, since it would be a true "first", a significant national prestige moment.

 - Ed Kyle
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Star One on 11/04/2014 06:38 AM

So the carrier spacecraft is going back to L2, could go into lunar orbit, and could--although it is unlikely--serve as a communications relay for a future farside lunar lander. Now that would be pretty darn interesting. It would be both a major engineering feat and if they returned samples from the South Pole-Aitken Basin, would also be a major scientific feat as well:
http://www.planetary.org/blogs/emily-lakdawalla/2014/11031013-change-5-test-vehicle-flying.html
And, since it would be a true "first", a significant national prestige moment.

 - Ed Kyle

Article updated to confirm that 5 will be landing on the near side of the moon & 6 possibly elsewhere.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: rusty on 11/05/2014 03:26 AM
Why do they even need a skip re-entry for rocks? ...
They don't. Skip re-entry is a concept to reduce the lethal G's produced by gumdrop-shaped capsules on direct re-entry from BEO. Rocks don't mind it, but the technology is needed for any human missions. The consequences of skip re-entry is prolonged and higher re-entry temperatures, as well as a much smaller re-entry window. In that regard; the complete thermal failure of this mission will be informative while there's nothing to be done about the orbital mechanics.

I hope China realizes now gumdrops are a no-go for BEO missions, though they should have already known this, and they start working toward a BEO design. Same goes for SpaceX and Russia if they're serious about Lunar or Martian missions. Same reason Boeing won't leave LEO. FYI; The US blazed this trail a half-century ago and the physics haven't changed, that's why Orion's no gumdrop and the only ride BEO.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Dalhousie on 11/05/2014 03:28 AM
Why do they even need a skip re-entry for rocks? ...
They don't. Skip re-entry is a concept to reduce the lethal G's produced by gumdrop-shaped capsules on direct re-entry from BEO. Rocks don't mind it, but the technology is needed for any human missions. The consequences of skip re-entry is prolonged and higher re-entry temperatures, as well as much less LOM margin. In that regard; the complete thermal failure of this mission will be informative while there's nothing to be done about re-entry angle.

I hope China realizes now gumdrops are a no-go for BEO missions, though they should have already known this, and they start working toward a BEO design. Same goes for SpaceX and Russia if they're serious about Lunar or Martian missions. Same reason Boeing won't leave LEO. FYI; The US blazed this trail a half-century ago and the physics haven't changed, that's why Orion's no gumdrop and the only ride BEO.

What evidence do you have to back this statement up?
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: hop on 11/05/2014 04:21 AM
In that regard; the complete thermal failure of this mission will be informative while there's nothing to be done about the orbital mechanics.
What "complete thermal failure"?

From http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=34162.msg1281871#msg1281871
Quote
Yang Mengfei, commander-in-chief for the lunar exploration program at CASC
...
From what we have seen, the capsule is in good condition. It has completed the planned mission and fullfilled all the requirements.
And http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=34162.msg1282128#msg1282128
Quote
According to Deputy Chief Engineer of the mission Hao Xifan, The TPS survived the re-entry BETTER than expected.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Mader Levap on 11/05/2014 09:56 AM
the complete thermal failure of this mission
If that mission had "complete thermal failure", capsule would burn up in atmosphere, not recovered in one piece from ground, apparently in good condition.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Blackstar on 11/05/2014 03:45 PM
This news segment includes some video that I don't think has been shown before. It shows the capsule separation from the carrier vehicle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krCcJ6KHy00
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Dalhousie on 11/06/2014 06:23 AM
Still waiting on Rusty to explain why he/she thinks that "gumdrop" shaped capsules are no good BEO, why the Chang'e capsule suffered complete thermal failure, and why the CST-100, with the same shape as Apollo, is actually a "gumdrop".
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Moe Grills on 11/06/2014 05:37 PM
Why do they even need a skip re-entry for rocks? ...
They don't. Skip re-entry is a concept to reduce the lethal G's produced by gumdrop-shaped capsules on direct re-entry from BEO. Rocks don't mind it, but the technology is needed for any human missions. The consequences of skip re-entry is prolonged and higher re-entry temperatures, as well as a much smaller re-entry window. In that regard; the complete thermal failure of this mission will be informative while there's nothing to be done about the orbital mechanics.

I hope China realizes now gumdrops are a no-go for BEO missions, though they should have already known this, and they start working toward a BEO design. Same goes for SpaceX and Russia if they're serious about Lunar or Martian missions. Same reason Boeing won't leave LEO. FYI; The US blazed this trail a half-century ago and the physics haven't changed, that's why Orion's no gumdrop and the only ride BEO.

The skip re-entry is for the benefit of those Chinese engineers, space project planners who are 'quietly' secretly
planning to send taikonauts on a cislunar mission sometime SOON. Now my use of the word SOON can be anything from 5 years from now to a generation from now. Quite arbitrary.

REMEMBER, engineering issues aside, Chinese politicians run a communist dictatorship, and it is they who give the green light or not to any space project. And dictators like ambitious or prestigious space missions. What they want they demand, and it is carried out in secret (like the 60's Soviets) or openly.

Thus IMHO this mission just accomplished had two goals: make Chinese geologists happy with a few grams of lunar rock in the next few years and make Chinese dictators and manned space project planners happy with a
taikonaut 'hero' paraded in Beijing after returning from a cislunar mission.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: plutogno on 11/06/2014 07:55 PM
REMEMBER, engineering issues aside, Chinese politicians run a communist dictatorship, and it is they who give the green light or not to any space project. And dictators like ambitious or prestigious space missions.

I can't remember of a single Chinese space mission (except for their very first satellites) that was carried out according to a political agenda.
(oh, well, yes, manned and high profile missions are often launched during the October national holidays...)
and beside, politically-motivated Soviet space stunts are actually far fewer than one may usually think.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: hop on 11/06/2014 09:17 PM
Thus IMHO this mission just accomplished had two goals: make Chinese geologists happy with a few grams of lunar rock in the next few years...
If this capsule is used anywhere close to capacity, it will be a lot more than a few grams. The Luna missions returned between 55 and 170 grams each, with a capsule that mass of ~35 kg. I haven't seen a number for the CE 5 capsule, but it would be very surprising if the capacity wasn't several kg at least and perhaps tens of kg. We don't know if their sampling and ascent systems would be able to take advantage of that, but there would be real value (and bragging rights) if they could.

Quote
REMEMBER, engineering issues aside, Chinese politicians run a communist dictatorship, and it is they who give the green light or not to any space project. And dictators like ambitious or prestigious space missions.
This is a serious oversimplification. Even in the most totalitarian states, policies are frequently shaped by competing interests. China is more complicated than most, due both to the sheer size and the organizational structure.

If you look at the Soviet program, the leadership clearly had a desire for propaganda spectaculars, but the specific programs were heavily influenced by scientists, competing design bureaus, bureaucrats at various levels promoting their favored projects etc. The situation in China isn't the same, but it would be unwise to assume it is simpler.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Blackstar on 11/06/2014 10:56 PM

This is a serious oversimplification. Even in the most totalitarian states, policies are frequently shaped by competing interests. China is more complicated than most, due both to the sheer size and the organizational structure.

If you look at the Soviet program, the leadership clearly had a desire for propaganda spectaculars, but the specific programs were heavily influenced by scientists, competing design bureaus, bureaucrats at various levels promoting their favored projects etc. The situation in China isn't the same, but it would be unwise to assume it is simpler.

Yeah, what he said.

The Chinese government appears to have funded a broad range of space activities, including space science missions that have limited prestige value. There are probably a lot of reasons and motivations behind them, including a belief that science research has value to the nation, and also that leading in science is something that great nations do.

My suspicion is that the political leadership has limited knowledge and interest in this robotic lunar program. They know it is going on, they have approved it and think it is a good thing, and they will appear on TV for the successes. Beyond that, they know nothing substantial about it.

My other suspicion is that the Chinese space managers who put this specific program together have hedged their bets a bit. There are no plans right now for sending humans to the Moon. But they have crafted the program in such a way that it gives them experience needed to perform that mission at some future time. It's good experience and good practice. It looks like a very smart approach.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Dalhousie on 11/07/2014 12:48 AM
The Chinese government appears to have funded a broad range of space activities, including space science missions that have limited prestige value. There are probably a lot of reasons and motivations behind them, including a belief that science research has value to the nation, and also that leading in science is something that great nations do.

My suspicion is that the political leadership has limited knowledge and interest in this robotic lunar program. They know it is going on, they have approved it and think it is a good thing, and they will appear on TV for the successes. Beyond that, they know nothing substantial about it.

My other suspicion is that the Chinese space managers who put this specific program together have hedged their bets a bit. There are no plans right now for sending humans to the Moon. But they have crafted the program in such a way that it gives them experience needed to perform that mission at some future time. It's good experience and good practice. It looks like a very smart approach.

I agree too.

I also think they have have worked towards a mximal archietecture than can land anywhere on the Moon,as shown by Chang'e 3 descending from a polar orbit andf the Chang'e 5-T1 carrier's planned operations in EML-2.  Also by using advanced robotis for lunar surface operations and apparently opting for LOR for sample return, they are using approaches readily adaptable to Mars.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Blackstar on 11/07/2014 02:36 AM


I also think they have have worked towards a mximal archietecture than can land anywhere on the Moon,as shown by Chang'e 3 descending from a polar orbit andf the Chang'e 5-T1 carrier's planned operations in EML-2.  Also by using advanced robotis for lunar surface operations and apparently opting for LOR for sample return, they are using approaches readily adaptable to Mars.

I think you hit on something important there. In their manned program the Chinese have obviously studied other countries and sought to learn from them, taking fewer, but bigger steps each time. They are substituting other's experience for their own.

Their robotic lunar program looks like they are taking bigger steps, trying to accomplish more each time. But it is still a measured program. So they have adopted a lunar exploration architecture that is not minimalist. It gets them a lot. They did a lander and rover the first time. They want polar orbiting capability and return-anytime capability for their lunar sample return. It's ambitious, but also careful.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Space Ghost 1962 on 11/07/2014 07:28 PM
Correct. The way I'd put it, the Chinese cultural adaption to cautious exploration framework is to gradually evolve increased capabilities from the start when it is cheapest. It stands in contrast to the reductionism practiced by American space culture, which is to force the fewest consequential items regardless of cost in order to ensure the goal.

One shot assurance verses practiced capabilities over time. 
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: the_other_Doug on 11/07/2014 09:34 PM
I can't remember of a single Chinese space mission (except for their very first satellites) that was carried out according to a political agenda.
(oh, well, yes, manned and high profile missions are often launched during the October national holidays...)
and beside, politically-motivated Soviet space stunts are actually far fewer than one may usually think.

I would strongly disagree with this, especially for the various programs from the late 50s through the mid-70s.  Certainly their manned space program was designed to one-up the stated goals of the American programs whenever at all possible -- even when their one-upsmanship was positively dangerous to the crews involved (for example, Voskhod 1).  Their lunar sample return progrm was designed to "scoop" the American Apollo landings ("See, you don't need to risk men to collect samples!  Stupid Americans!") as evidenced by the timing of Luna 15.

List me any Soviet program prior to 1975 and I bet I can tell you why it was politically motivated to count coup against America...

-Doug  (With my shield, not yet upon it)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Blackstar on 11/07/2014 10:05 PM
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: tdenk on 11/09/2014 05:08 PM
Is this a kind of official timeline?
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Dalhousie on 11/09/2014 07:54 PM
I can't remember of a single Chinese space mission (except for their very first satellites) that was carried out according to a political agenda.
(oh, well, yes, manned and high profile missions are often launched during the October national holidays...)
and beside, politically-motivated Soviet space stunts are actually far fewer than one may usually think.

I would strongly disagree with this, especially for the various programs from the late 50s through the mid-70s.  Certainly their manned space program was designed to one-up the stated goals of the American programs whenever at all possible -- even when their one-upsmanship was positively dangerous to the crews involved (for example, Voskhod 1).  Their lunar sample return progrm was designed to "scoop" the American Apollo landings ("See, you don't need to risk men to collect samples!  Stupid Americans!") as evidenced by the timing of Luna 15.

List me any Soviet program prior to 1975 and I bet I can tell you why it was politically motivated to count coup against America...

-Doug  (With my shield, not yet upon it)

I think it is short sighted to assume that the prime reason for Chines and Soviet space missions were political.  This was a factor in some, quite possibly, but all?  I don't think so
.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Lsquirrel on 11/10/2014 06:34 AM
According to sastind
http://www.sastind.gov.cn/n112/n117/c437787/content.html
CE5T1 Orbiter have taken a photo of earth&moon on Nov9
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 11/10/2014 09:29 AM
According to sastind
http://www.sastind.gov.cn/n112/n117/c437787/content.html
CE5T1 Orbiter have took a photo of earth&moon on Nov9

This was taken yesterday at around 08:00 UTC when it was at apogee of its new 600 x 540000 km orbit. Earth was 540000 km and the Moon was 920000 km away when this was taken.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Blackstar on 11/10/2014 06:24 PM
http://www.leonarddavid.com/china-lunar-capsule-new-details/

"The capsule made use of seven kinds of thermal protection materials, apparently to evaluate the heat-thwarting qualities of various materials. What was learned will be applied to the Chang’e 5 lunar sample return craft that is slated to fly in 2017."
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Phillip Clark on 11/11/2014 06:18 AM
According to sastind
http://www.sastind.gov.cn/n112/n117/c437787/content.html
CE5T1 Orbiter have took a photo of earth&moon on Nov9
This was taken yesterday at around 08:00 UTC when it was at apogee of its new 600 x 540000 km orbit. Earth was 540000 km and the Moon was 920000 km away when this was taken.

Has an orbital inclination been quoted for this new orbit, please?
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: satwatcher on 11/11/2014 07:43 AM
[Has an orbital inclination been quoted for this new orbit, please?

No, but likely it is still close to the inclination of the orbit of the reentry module at time of reentry; around 46 deg. It would've been inefficient for the service module to change inclination significantly during the perigee raising burn that occurred shortly after separation.

My guess is that the service module raised its perigee at the apogee pass a few days ago to set the orbital period such that at the EML2 will be near the next apogee.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: tolis on 11/11/2014 10:31 AM
If the service module does make it to Earth-Moon L2  it will be
in a position to take the '2001' shot - the Earth rising beyond the Moon and the Sun
rising beyond the Earth. Unfortunately this will also mean pointing the camera towards the Sun
so I don't see it happening..
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Satori on 11/11/2014 11:09 AM
From Xinhua, China publishes Earth, Moon photos taken by lunar orbiter (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/sci/2014-11/10/c_133778959.htm).
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: plutogno on 11/14/2014 02:15 PM
meanwhile, 4M appears to have fallen silent
http://amsat-uk.org/2014/11/11/4m-end-of-mission/
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 11/29/2014 05:25 AM
CE5-T1 has arrived at EM-L2 (or at least around it) on November 27: http://china.cnr.cn/gdgg/201411/t20141129_516922801.shtml (http://china.cnr.cn/gdgg/201411/t20141129_516922801.shtml)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Liss on 11/29/2014 08:05 AM
According to http://scitech.people.com.cn/n/2014/1129/c1007-26117778.html , CE5-T1 passed the Moon on Nov 23 and arrived to L2 by Nov 27. The orbit is Lissajous type with X=20000 km, Y=40000 km, Z=35000 km and period of 14 days. On Nov 28 CE5-T1 was 421000 km from Earth and 63000 km from Moon.

The graph obviously show CE5-T1 trajectory via Moon to L2, around L2 and to Moon again.
( http://scitech.people.com.cn/NMediaFile/2014/1129/MAIN201411291246000239166730922.jpg )
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Satori on 11/30/2014 11:05 AM
From Xinhua, Service module of China's returned lunar orbiter reaches L2 point (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2014-11/29/c_133822047.htm).
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: NovaSilisko on 11/30/2014 05:40 PM
So... could this vehicle now act as a communications relay for something going down on the far side if so desired? Do we know if it has the capability?
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Phil Stooke on 11/30/2014 06:56 PM
I don't think we do know that.  More likely, this is just a test of operations at L2.  I understand it will make only a few loose orbits around L2 and then move on, possibly to a lunar orbit.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Blackstar on 12/01/2014 07:00 PM
They may just be practicing their deep space navigation and communications capabilities, the equivalent of a pilot putting an airplane through some maneuvers just to see how it performs and what it can do.

But I wonder if they intend to do any kind of relay of CE-3 comms. That is a useful capability to have, both for any future lunar missions and also for future Mars missions. After all, it is how NASA controls its rovers on Mars, so it is a useful skill.

Personally, I'd like to see that and an elliptical orbit that might demonstrate an intention to do a lunar South Pole-Aitken Basin mission.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Phil Stooke on 12/01/2014 11:46 PM
CE3 relay... would be nice!  The sun just rose over CE3 again so if anything was to be communicated the next few sols might be the time... but I understand there was nothing during the last lunar day:

https://twitter.com/uhf_satcom/status/530812777792024576 (https://twitter.com/uhf_satcom/status/530812777792024576)

Although - the CE3 site is not visible from L2, so comm relay would have to wait for the later lunar orbit phase of CE5T1.

Phil

Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: plutogno on 12/03/2014 05:39 AM
this xinhua article discusses future plans for CE5T1:
http://news.xinhuanet.com/tech/2014-12/02/c_1113493000.htm

from Google translate:

Quote
in early January 2015 the service module will leave the Earth-Moon L2 point of flying to the moon; the middle of recent months, brake, forming lunar orbit; February, March each conduct a lunar orbit rendezvous and docking Remote Pilot test; April-to-Moon imaging, shooting preset sampling landing zone topography.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Nordren on 12/03/2014 09:22 AM
China Daily (English): 'Chinese orbiter staying in space for tests'
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2014-12/03/content_19014325.htm (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2014-12/03/content_19014325.htm)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Satori on 01/06/2015 01:09 PM
From Xinhua, Chinese spacecraft to return to moon's orbit (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2015-01/05/c_133898173.htm).
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 01/06/2015 01:33 PM
From Xinhua, Chinese spacecraft to return to moon's orbit (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2015-01/05/c_133898173.htm).

To summarize:

CE-5-T1 left EM-L2 at around 15:00 UTC on Jan. 4 and is scheduled to reach lunar orbit by mid-January. As of midnight UTC on Jan. 5 the spacecraft is 445000 km from Earth and 57000 km from the Moon.

Earlier reports state that (http://news.xinhuanet.com/tech/2014-12/02/c_1113493000.htm) it will do at least 2 things in lunar orbit. In February and March it will perform 2 "virtual target" rendezvous tests for the future CE-5 mission (not unlike how the Shuttle did "dummy rendezvous" tests in the 1980s). In April the small monitoring camera will be used to obtain higher resolution photos of CE-5's landing zone.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: tdenk on 01/06/2015 02:16 PM
Anything known about what (or if there) will be Cháng'é-4?

Thorsten
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Satori on 01/06/2015 03:30 PM
Anything known about what (or if there) will be Cháng'é-4?

Thorsten


The mission is being reevaluated at this time.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 01/11/2015 04:28 AM
CE-5-T1 has entered lunar orbit yesterday at around 19:00 UTC - initial orbit is 200 x 5300 km with period of 8 hours. It will make 2 more burns over the next 2 days to lower its orbit to a 200 km circular one with period of 127 minutes.

Source: http://www.chinanews.com/gn/2015/01-11/6956390.shtml (http://www.chinanews.com/gn/2015/01-11/6956390.shtml)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Nordren on 01/13/2015 10:30 AM
Moon phases as seen from EM-L2 by the service module. Released by SASTIND http://www.sastind.gov.cn/n112/n117/c466423/content.html (http://www.sastind.gov.cn/n112/n117/c466423/content.html)

Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Satori on 01/13/2015 08:37 PM
From Xinhua, Service module of China's lunar orbiter enters 127-minute orbit (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2015-01/13/c_133915882.htm).
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: mcgyver on 01/15/2015 09:05 AM
CE-5-T1 has entered lunar orbit yesterday at around 19:00 UTC - initial orbit is 200 x 5300 km with period of 8 hours. It will make 2 more burns over the next 2 days to lower its orbit to a 200 km circular one with period of 127 minutes.
What is planned to eventually happen to the service module? Moon crash? Sun crash? When?
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 01/16/2015 04:47 AM
I don't think it has the delta-V to crash into the Sun. If it has enough delta-V, it might leave Lunar orbit like Chang'e 2 and head back to EML-2, otherwise it will be crashed into the Moon. As for timing, its anyone's guess.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: ugordan on 01/16/2015 11:21 AM
I don't think it has the delta-V to crash into the Sun.

Yes, most people don't realize this, but from Earth's orbit it actually takes more delta-V to send something into the Sun than it takes to send it on a solar escape trajectory. The human intuition that "dropping" something is easy breaks down when it comes to orbital mechanics.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 01/26/2015 05:52 AM
From Xinhua, Service module of China's lunar orbiter enters 127-minute orbit (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2015-01/13/c_133915882.htm).

I saw that Jonathan McDowell has listed CE5-T1's lunar orbit inclination as unknown, so I found a source http://zz.81.cn/content/2015-01/13/content_6306377.htm (http://zz.81.cn/content/2015-01/13/content_6306377.htm) that lists its orbit as 200 km circular at 43.7 degree inclination.  ;)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: plutogno on 02/08/2015 08:45 AM
http://www.china.org.cn/china/2015-02/08/content_34765936.htm

Quote
The service module of China's unmanned test lunar orbiter has finished tests of orbiting technologies needed in a future sampling mission on the Moon.

so what's next for CE-5-T1?

also note:
Quote
Such technologies will possibly be used in the country's next lunar probe mission, Chang'e-5.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: russianhalo117 on 02/11/2015 10:39 PM
http://www.china.org.cn/china/2015-02/08/content_34765936.htm

Quote
The service module of China's unmanned test lunar orbiter has finished tests of orbiting technologies needed in a future sampling mission on the Moon.

so what's next for CE-5-T1?

also note:
Quote
Such technologies will possibly be used in the country's next lunar probe mission, Chang'e-5.
Maybe asteroid/comet chasing, extended mission or crash it for science.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Phil Stooke on 02/12/2015 03:27 AM
No, they have said it will image the sample return landing site over the next couple of months.

Phil
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Satori on 02/12/2015 08:40 PM
From Xinhua, China's lunar probe tests orbit for moon sampling (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2015-02/08/c_133978153.htm).
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: plutogno on 03/01/2015 07:44 AM
wow! the latest issue of Scientia Sinica Technologica (the Chinese version) has a lot of papers on CE-5-T1!
http://tech.scichina.com:8082/sciE/CN/volumn/volumn_7017.shtml#
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Satori on 03/08/2015 06:06 PM
From Xinhua, China's test spacecraft simulates orbital docking (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2015-03/08/c_134048280.htm).
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Phillip Clark on 03/08/2015 06:34 PM
From Xinhua, China's test spacecraft simulates orbital docking (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2015-03/08/c_134048280.htm).

In this article I note that "Liu told Xinhua that the SASTIND expects to test launching Chang'e-5 with a Long March-5 carrier rocket in south China's Hainan Province this year."   So do they mean a Chang'E 5 mock-up on the maiden CZ-5 launch or a further Chang-E-5 precursor mission on the CZ-5?
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 03/08/2015 10:41 PM
From Xinhua, China's test spacecraft simulates orbital docking (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2015-03/08/c_134048280.htm).

In this article I note that "Liu told Xinhua that the SASTIND expects to test launching Chang'e-5 with a Long March-5 carrier rocket in south China's Hainan Province this year."   So do they mean a Chang'E 5 mock-up on the maiden CZ-5 launch or a further Chang-E-5 precursor mission on the CZ-5?

Oh sheesh, the Chinese made a mistake in translating this sentence!  ::) The correct translation is (http://www.chinanews.com/gn/2015/03-08/7110435.shtml): "Liu told Xinhua that the SASTIND expects to complete a dry run of the pre-launch sequence (w/WDR using a CE-5 mock up?) with a Long March-5 carrier rocket in south China's Hainan Province this year. Assembly is expected to complete in 2017."
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: plutogno on 03/14/2015 07:53 AM
not as detailed as the batch of Chinese papers but at least it's in English: Technical advancements and significance of circumlunar return and reentry spacecraft
http://tech.scichina.com:8082/sciEe/EN/abstract/abstract517060.shtml
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Dalhousie on 03/14/2015 09:42 AM
not as detailed as the batch of Chinese papers but at least it's in English: Technical advancements and significance of circumlunar return and reentry spacecraft
http://tech.scichina.com:8082/sciEe/EN/abstract/abstract517060.shtml

First time I have seen a entry mass mentioned in English, 335 kg.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Phillip Clark on 03/14/2015 10:44 AM
First time I have seen a entry mass mentioned in English, 335 kg.

I had estimated 350 kg. :)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 07/09/2015 03:51 PM
Well this thing is still orbiting the Moon - and it has done something new! The spacecraft has finally did its lunar surface imaging test.

The test started on May 28 with the monitoring camera shooting a 2 minute video of the Earth, then turned towards the Moon and getting more than 3000 images down to 2.5 m resolution.

Source (http://www.cast.cn/CastCn/Show.asp?ArticleID=48907)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Dalhousie on 07/10/2015 02:07 AM
Well this thing is still orbiting the Moon - and it has done something new! The spacecraft has finally did its lunar surface imaging test.

The test started on May 28 with the monitoring camera shooting a 2 minute video of the Earth, then turned towards the Moon and getting more than 3000 images down to 2.5 m resolution.

Source (http://www.cast.cn/CastCn/Show.asp?ArticleID=48907)

Good enough to see a Chang'e 3 sized lander on the surface, though not a Yutu-sized rover
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: plutogno on 09/02/2015 06:34 PM
China's lunar orbiter gets close-up pictures of the Moon
http://www.icrosschina.com/news/2015/0902/17908.shtml
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Nordren on 09/02/2015 10:13 PM
China's lunar orbiter gets close-up pictures of the Moon
http://www.icrosschina.com/news/2015/0902/17908.shtml

pics released by sastind/xinhua
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: savuporo on 09/04/2015 02:45 AM
Not sure if this was mentioned up thread, but i just noticed that this mission was claimed to have 'various biological experiments on board'. Was it stated what kind of samples ?
Been a while since earth based biology traveled outside of LEO ..
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: gwiz on 09/04/2015 03:25 PM
Plants and bacteria.  Mentioned on first page of this thread.  Seem to recall that the plants included potato shoots and wheat seeds?
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Phil Stooke on 09/04/2015 03:52 PM
Right - but on the return capsule, not the orbiter currently at the Moon.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: savuporo on 09/04/2015 03:55 PM
Plants and bacteria.  Mentioned on first page of this thread.  Seem to recall that the plants included potato shoots and wheat seeds?
Thanks, found the mention. Also found this chapter on Spaceflight101

http://www.spaceflight101.com/change-5-test-mission.html
Quote
Taking advantage of a great scientific opportunity, China will not fly an empty vehicle around the Moon and back to Earth. Instead, the vehicle will be carrying a number of samples on a journey beyond Earth orbit to learn about the effects of the BEO environment on various organisms, seeds, plants and other samples. The sample containers will be loaded well before launch to complete a nine-day mission to space followed by extensive post-flight analysis.

Flying samples beyond the Earth environment and returning them to Earth has not been done over past years, only limited to Low-Earth orbit missions that returned samples back to Earth like International Space Station Experiments and the Russian Bion and Foton missions. China has also conducted a sample return mission as part of the Shijian-8 mission that launched in September 2006 and successfully returned to Earth after 15 days in orbit, carrying several thousand samples from a broad variety of plants including vegetables, fruit, grain and cotton to examine any changes to germination and plant physiology in space-flown plants compared to those grown on Earth.

An exact overview of the payloads aboard the Chang'e 5-T1 mission has not been provided.

And from the mission updates page, i guess thats as much detail as is gonna be there before there is a paper published:
Quote
Opportunities of flying samples beyond Earth orbit have been extremely rare over the past decades and this mission offered a great opportunity to fly a sizable sample payload of several Kilograms.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Dalhousie on 09/05/2015 11:10 AM
Plants and bacteria.  Mentioned on first page of this thread.  Seem to recall that the plants included potato shoots and wheat seeds?
Thanks, found the mention. Also found this chapter on Spaceflight101

http://www.spaceflight101.com/change-5-test-mission.html
Quote
Taking advantage of a great scientific opportunity, China will not fly an empty vehicle around the Moon and back to Earth. Instead, the vehicle will be carrying a number of samples on a journey beyond Earth orbit to learn about the effects of the BEO environment on various organisms, seeds, plants and other samples. The sample containers will be loaded well before launch to complete a nine-day mission to space followed by extensive post-flight analysis.

Flying samples beyond the Earth environment and returning them to Earth has not been done over past years, only limited to Low-Earth orbit missions that returned samples back to Earth like International Space Station Experiments and the Russian Bion and Foton missions. China has also conducted a sample return mission as part of the Shijian-8 mission that launched in September 2006 and successfully returned to Earth after 15 days in orbit, carrying several thousand samples from a broad variety of plants including vegetables, fruit, grain and cotton to examine any changes to germination and plant physiology in space-flown plants compared to those grown on Earth.

An exact overview of the payloads aboard the Chang'e 5-T1 mission has not been provided.

And from the mission updates page, i guess thats as much detail as is gonna be there before there is a paper published:
Quote
Opportunities of flying samples beyond Earth orbit have been extremely rare over the past decades and this mission offered a great opportunity to fly a sizable sample payload of several Kilograms.

I'd be interested to two what sort of environmental system was used for these.  I assume pressurisation and temperature control as a minimum.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Blackstar on 09/05/2015 11:48 PM
The Chinese have a weird belief in magical space seeds. It's a whole thing with them--they think that seeds that have been in space return with some kind of super powers. You can look it up.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Blackstar on 09/05/2015 11:48 PM
http://www.leonarddavid.com/china-shoots-the-moon-looking-for-landing-site/
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: savuporo on 09/06/2015 12:42 AM
All while the previous lunar samples are apparently quietly crumbling to dust (http://www.space.com/30450-apollo-moon-soil-samples-disintegrating.html), but thats veering off topic.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Dalhousie on 09/06/2015 06:49 AM
The Chinese have a weird belief in magical space seeds. It's a whole thing with them--they think that seeds that have been in space return with some kind of super powers. You can look it up.

Calling it "magical" comes across as patronising Given that other countries have done the same thing. 
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: cscott on 09/06/2015 01:33 PM
The Chinese have a weird belief in magical space seeds. It's a whole thing with them--they think that seeds that have been in space return with some kind of super powers. You can look it up.

Calling it "magical" comes across as patronising Given that other countries have done the same thing.
For example: http://www.wired.com/2015/03/ground-control-space-beer/
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Blackstar on 09/06/2015 06:46 PM
The Chinese have a weird belief in magical space seeds. It's a whole thing with them--they think that seeds that have been in space return with some kind of super powers. You can look it up.

Calling it "magical" comes across as patronising Given that other countries have done the same thing.
For example: http://www.wired.com/2015/03/ground-control-space-beer/

Except that your example was clearly a public relations stunt.

Don't believe me? Just go look it up yourself. The Chinese aren't doing this on a scientific basis.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: plutogno on 02/08/2016 07:26 AM
recent report that the CE-5-T1 orbiter has completed 4100 orbits of the Moon.
http://www.chinaspaceflight.com/satellite/Deepspace/CE5T1/CE5-T1.html
and a couple of pics from the wide angle and narrow angle camera
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Phil Stooke on 02/08/2016 06:27 PM
It's good to see that this mission is still active and collecting data.  It appears that several sites have been imaged for use as the Chang'E 5 landing site, apparently all in northern parts of Oceanus Procellarum.  I should point out that these two images are the same ones released last fall, not new releases.

This LPSC abstract:

http://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2016/pdf/1758.pdf (http://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2016/pdf/1758.pdf)

identifies two possible sites at Mons Rumker, a volcanic plateau.  However, these are probably extra sites, not official candidates.  Similar extra sites in Sinus Iridum were described but not used for Chang'E 3.  I personally consider the most likely sites to be in areas of the youngest basalts, such as south of Aristarchus, widely considered to be very high priorities for sampling and a huge scientific coup for China.  However, I have been known to be wrong before.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: savuporo on 03/31/2016 05:15 PM
Manfred Memorial Moon Mission (4M): development, operations and results of a privately funded low cost lunar flyby (http://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3200&context=smallsat)

Quote
FUTURE PLANS
Building on the success of 4M and the Chinese Lunar Exploration Program, the next step has to be planned.
Another mission to the moon is planned for 2018 and we already booked a place on it.
The planned trajectory is  similar  to that of Chang’e 5T1, albeit much better controlled.
The current plan is a scientific mission with the  objective to study the far magnetosphere and magnetopause, and, possibly, the detection of near-Earth objects.
Our plan right now is to use our rugged and successful extended Triton-1  platform, which
presently is in commercial service on other missions.
An option with electrical propulsion is depicted in Figure 8. To realize this we are welcoming partners and
investors to join our endeavor
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Dalhousie on 04/04/2016 09:46 PM
Manfred Memorial Moon Mission (4M): development, operations and results of a privately funded low cost lunar flyby (http://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3200&context=smallsat)

Quote
FUTURE PLANS
Building on the success of 4M and the Chinese Lunar Exploration Program, the next step has to be planned.
Another mission to the moon is planned for 2018 and we already booked a place on it.
The planned trajectory is  similar  to that of Chang’e 5T1, albeit much better controlled.
The current plan is a scientific mission with the  objective to study the far magnetosphere and magnetopause, and, possibly, the detection of near-Earth objects.
Our plan right now is to use our rugged and successful extended Triton-1  platform, which
presently is in commercial service on other missions.
An option with electrical propulsion is depicted in Figure 8. To realize this we are welcoming partners and
investors to join our endeavor

What's this "Much better controlled" bit? Chang'e 5T went off as planned and everything ended up where it was supposed to.  Nothing wrong with the control.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: savuporo on 04/04/2016 09:54 PM
What's this "Much better controlled" bit? Chang'e 5T went off as planned and everything ended up where it was supposed to.  Nothing wrong with the control.
They talk about that in the doc. 4M was attached to LV upper stage, not to service module or the return capsule.

Quote
The launcher's trajectory was very accurate. However, since 4M was located on the last stage, its trajectory had some uncertainties. The main reason was that it is common practice for all launchers to vent their tanks after they are depleted.

Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Dalhousie on 04/04/2016 10:04 PM
What's this "Much better controlled" bit? Chang'e 5T went off as planned and everything ended up where it was supposed to.  Nothing wrong with the control.
They talk about that in the doc. 4M was attached to LV upper stage, not to service module or the return capsule.

Quote
The launcher's trajectory was very accurate. However, since 4M was located on the last stage, its trajectory had some uncertainties. The main reason was that it is common practice for all launchers to vent their tanks after they are depleted.

That's explains it better, thanks
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: elakdawalla on 04/04/2016 10:34 PM
recent report that the CE-5-T1 orbiter has completed 4100 orbits of the Moon.
http://www.chinaspaceflight.com/satellite/Deepspace/CE5T1/CE5-T1.html
I'm late to this news. The article linked here also seems to mention Chang'e 2 in a polar orbit, and that Chang'e 5 will be switching from an orbit of 43 degrees inclination to a 90 degree inclination orbit -- am I reading it correctly? Does the mention of Chang'e 5's future orbit refer to Chang'e 5 T1 or to the future Chang'e 5 relay satellite?
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Moon Rabbit on 10/17/2017 04:46 PM
sorry for bumping up this old thread but thought it to be the most relevant place to ask...
Is the CE-5-T1 service module (aka orbiter) still active? Based on the last few post in the thread, it was still orbiting round the Moon back in February 2016. Has it crash into the Moon?
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Phil Stooke on 10/17/2017 06:43 PM
I have not seen any news on the current status of CE-5-T1.  I think we would have been told if it had impacted, so I assume it is still in orbit.  Any news would be very welcome. 
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: SmallKing on 10/18/2017 02:59 AM
sorry for bumping up this old thread but thought it to be the most relevant place to ask...
Is the CE-5-T1 service module (aka orbiter) still active? Based on the last few post in the thread, it was still orbiting round the Moon back in February 2016. Has it crash into the Moon?
Yes, it is still alive
Quote
Scott Tilley‏ @coastal8049  Oct 8
More
 China's Chang'e 5 T1 is still active. Rough obs/calc show orbital period about 132 minutes and 800Km altitude
@ChinaInSpace @Spaceflight101
https://twitter.com/coastal8049/status/916976512112324610
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: DF2MZ on 01/11/2018 07:31 PM
Chang'e-5T1 is alive in lunar orbit and can easily be received on 2 s-band frequencies (sometimes one, sometimes both) as soon as the moon is visible and the orbiter is not behind the moon. At least one of the beacons is always on. Of course nobody knows if the thing is doing anything except beaconing. Here is a spectrogram from Dec. 1st, 2017 showing a full pass in front of the moon. The vertical lines are receiver artifacts.

(http://edgarkaiser.homepage.t-online.de/Change5T1_171201_2303_2210.800.jpg)
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Phil Stooke on 01/12/2018 06:28 AM
Thanks for this - very useful. 
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Phillip Clark on 12/07/2018 01:00 AM
Does anyone know if this lunar orbiter is still returning data?
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: russianhalo117 on 12/07/2018 03:37 AM
Does anyone know if this lunar orbiter is still returning data?
A friend of mine believes they were able to detect it. They are going to verify later this week.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: russianhalo117 on 12/11/2018 07:56 PM
Does anyone know if this lunar orbiter is still returning data?
A friend of mine believes they were able to detect it. They are going to verify later this week.
Still detected. Possibly a secondary relay function or onboard payload.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Phil Stooke on 12/12/2018 12:01 AM
I don't think there would be much useful data to come from it - it's not exactly crammed with science instruments.  There are two cameras but they are not going to add anything useful.  A Chinese paper a while ago about deblurring images seemed to suggest that the low altitude images of the CE5 site near Rumker were mostly smeared, which is probably why we have seen so few of them.  I am surprised it has not simply been de-orbited, but possibly there is something else it can do which we don't know about. 
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Nordren on 12/12/2018 05:34 AM
I don't think there would be much useful data to come from it - it's not exactly crammed with science instruments.  There are two cameras but they are not going to add anything useful.  A Chinese paper a while ago about deblurring images seemed to suggest that the low altitude images of the CE5 site near Rumker were mostly smeared, which is probably why we have seen so few of them.  I am surprised it has not simply been de-orbited, but possibly there is something else it can do which we don't know about.

If the inclination is not too far off, could it be used to image the landing/CE-4 on the surface (blurring, of course)? Could it have been useful for testing comms with Queqiao ahead of CE-4 too?
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Phil Stooke on 12/12/2018 04:55 PM
I don't think imaging the landing or the lander on the surface is feasible, this is not an LRO-class camera or spacecraft.  But the communication test idea is certainly possible - good suggestion!
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Blackstar on 12/12/2018 06:29 PM
https://gbtimes.com/heres-a-close-up-look-at-the-chinese-change-4-moon-lander-and-rover?cat=chinas-space-program

Is CE4 solar powered? I think it is, being closely based on CE3. However, this article is rather imprecise and implies that CE5 is powered by an RTG. I think that what is actually being said is that the radioisotope heating unit is keeping it warm through the lunar night and might also generate some power. But I don't see a significant difference between CE3 and CE4. Correct?
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Phil Stooke on 12/12/2018 08:36 PM
No, this time the small radioactive heat source in he lander has been replaced with an RTG to allow the lander to operate through the lunar night, presumably for the radio astronomy experiment.  The rover of course is solar-powered.  I think the lander has solar panels for daytime power and the rover has a small heat source as well.  I am assuming the lander actually operates off batteries, and uses solar panels and the RTG to charge them, but they would not last all night without the RTG.
Title: Re: LIVE: Chinese CE-5-T1 (Chang'e 5 precursor) - CZ-3C/G2, Xichang - Oct. 23, 2014
Post by: Blackstar on 12/13/2018 12:56 AM
Thanks. I miss-posted this to the wrong thread. Should be in the CE4 thread. But your interpretation is the same as mine: CE4 uses solar, and a small RTG that provides some additional power, but is not the primary power source.