NASASpaceFlight.com Forum
International Space Flight (ESA, Russia, China and others) => Chinese Launchers => Topic started by: pagheca on 12/20/2013 09:32 pm
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There are many threads discussing what the US can/can't do under the ITAR, how ITAR is evolving, problems (like the Kepler conference), etc.
However, It would be interesting to see how many of the participants to the forum - that I suppose are mostly US citizen well informed about space issues - would agree in collaborating with China in space.
As usual, things are not white and black. This is a list of pro and cons of an open collaboration between the US and China that came to my mind:
PRO
(1) more control and knowledge on Chinese activities in space would be functional, not detrimental, to US security.
(2) other space agencies - notably Russian and ESA - are already collaborating and supporting the CNSP. This vanify any effort to isolate and delay China programs, and would put NASA and the US in a corner, out of a potential market.
(3) a collaboration with the Chinese could be used to obtain something else on the many international issues between China and the US.
(4) soon or later, a collaboration with China will be due.
CON
(1) China demonstrated in the past to be an unreliable, aggressive country, involved in hacking attempts (e.g. Landsat-7 event), technology transfer, industrial spying. And it doesn't respect copyright.
(2) too many human rights systematic violations by that country.
(3) the Chinese are still trailing other space power. So, it is better to exclude them by now to delay their development.
Of course I have my opinions about that (and I do not agree with some of these points), but I tried to be objective.
If you like the idea, can someone please create a POLL on this issue? I suggest 4 options:
1) In the interest of the US it would be better to avoid any collaboration with the Chinese at this time.
2) In the interest of the US it would be better to start a minimal collaboration with China in space.
3) We should start fully collaborating with the Chinese as we already do with the other space powers
4) Frankly speaking, I do not know...
cheers
p.s. I couldn't understand how to create a poll. I guess you need to be a full member to do that, right?
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If the US wants to isolate China, she isolates herself instead. The idea to isolate someone else is plainly short-sighted and childish. It always ends up in tears. China used to be the strongest and the most advanced country in the world. She chose to close the door and keep her advantage safe. The result was catastrophic.
The future of human race lies in the cooperation of the whole human race. We're one.
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Thanks for your comment, but I would like to know how many, in an educated (to space) public like this, think that, and how many think quite the opposite.
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The question should be 'Should China collaborate in space with the US?'
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The question should be 'Should China collaborate in space with the US?'
Actually exactly the opposite. US closed the door, not china. In fact Chinese have been pretty vocal about inviting everyone to collaborate especially over last few months
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Yes.
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The question should be 'Should China collaborate in space with the US?'
Of course, China should collaborate with the US and NASA should be allowed to collaborate with China.
The only thing blocking this is a small group of xenophobic politicians in Congress that need to be reminded that US policy towards China since the Nixon administration has been engagement. Our two countries are now major trading partners with intertwined economies. Sure, we have our differences, but we have a lot in common.
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The question should be 'Should China collaborate in space with the US?'
Actually exactly the opposite. US closed the door, not china. In fact Chinese have been pretty vocal about inviting everyone to collaborate especially over last few months
That's why the question... After so many years of US denying access to international projects, why should China collaborate with the US?
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The question should be 'Should China collaborate in space with the US?'
Actually exactly the opposite. US closed the door, not china. In fact Chinese have been pretty vocal about inviting everyone to collaborate especially over last few months
Some Chinese have.
Who does China collaborate with now?
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They collaborate with multiple entities. ESA, Russians, also ILO
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They collaborate with multiple entities. ESA, Russians, also ILO
Oh, is that all we're talking about? As far as I can tell, they're not any better off for the experience than the US.
I thought the OP was talking about an ISS-scale cooperation.
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Still haven't seen a reason provided
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The question should be 'Should China collaborate in space with the US?'
Why is that? Chinese launch rate is worse than the worse case scenario of SLS.
But if you want my honest opinion, I do not really see the up side right now. Its not like China has its doors wide open for unlimited cooperation.
I could see maybe collaborating on some planetary science missions but not much beyond that for a while.
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The Chinese should not bother collaborating with the USA.
Historically, the USA has a record of breaking agreements and making unilateral decisions which its partners then have to work around. It is much better for China to develop its own expertise and let the USA decline as a "space power".
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Don't let all the negative US talk fool you. There will be SLS, Falcon and Atlas rockets flying from Florida for a long time to come. Also, there will be a mission manifest for US manned operations if not during the current administration then most likely with the next one. The US doesn't like to play second to any nation and I'm pretty sure Elon Musk does not as well. The US manned space program is a sleeping giant awaiting to arouse from it's slumber soon.
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The Chinese should not bother collaborating with the USA.
That's another issue... I've been told by an high rank ESA manager that at a meeting more than an year ago the Chineses were so upset by something the Head of the US delegation said, that their Head said in private later to him they will never collaborate anymore with the US in space.
Actually it was something like a Confucio quote, in a very Chinese fashion - but I heard this story long ago and cannot remember what exactly said.
Of course "never" doesn't exist in politics. And... please don't blame the messenger. I'm just reporting, not necessarily supporting.
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nobody here is interested in creating the POLL or just tell me how to do that (although I'm afraid you need to be full member)?
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They collaborate with multiple entities. ESA, Russians, also ILO
Oh, is that all we're talking about? As far as I can tell, they're not any better off for the experience than the US.
I thought the OP was talking about an ISS-scale cooperation.
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/dec/10/science-uk-manned-mission-mars-china-us
On their return George Osborne announced in his autumn statement that Britain is setting aside £80m for an international space co-operation fund for emerging powers. China and India, which both have highly developed space programmes, will be free to apply.
Please read the article above in full.
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/dec/20/china-jade-rabbit-rover-space-politics
NASA Budget: £18bn.
CNSA : Budget: $1.3bn
ISRO : Budget: $1.3bn.
ESA : Budget: $5.5bn
RSA : Budget : $5.5bn.
JAXA : Budget: $2.5bn
Obviously, £80m anywhere else but NASA will go much further.
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nobody here is interested in creating the POLL or just tell me how to do that (although I'm afraid you need to be full member)?
I can create a poll if no one else does, but I'd like to see it be more than just a yes no... what are the possible alternatives? Here are some I came up with
- No collaboration or cooperation of any sort other than what is required by international law (NOTAMs and the like)
- Sharing research results after the fact (modify ITAR as required in every case from here down)
- Access to the DSN for Chinese scientific missions plus the above
- Flying experiments on each other's vehicles plus the above
- Launching craft on each other's vehicles plus the above
- Invite the Chinese to be an ISS partner (if ESA and other parties agree) plus the above
- Plan the ISS followon to incorporate the Chinese plus the above
- Allow private firms to plan future commercial (ISRU and resource extraction) joint ventures with the Chinese
Problem is that this doesn't seem like it's suitable to a single choice poll, many of the options are complimentary and after a while it's too much piling on to go with "plus the above" each time
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Problem is that this doesn't seem like it's suitable to a single choice poll, many of the options are complimentary and after a while it's too much piling on to go with "plus the above" each time
You can make it a a) zero collaboration - current state of affairs b) some, carefully following existing ITAR c) relaxing ITAR and open collaboration across future missions d) full on major joint venture of some sort
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They collaborate with multiple entities. ESA, Russians, also ILO
Oh, is that all we're talking about? As far as I can tell, they're not any better off for the experience than the US.
I thought the OP was talking about an ISS-scale cooperation.
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/dec/10/science-uk-manned-mission-mars-china-us
On their return George Osborne announced in his autumn statement that Britain is setting aside £80m for an international space co-operation fund for emerging powers. China and India, which both have highly developed space programmes, will be free to apply.
Please read the article above in full.
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/dec/20/china-jade-rabbit-rover-space-politics
NASA Budget: £18bn.
CNSA : Budget: $1.3bn
ISRO : Budget: $1.3bn.
ESA : Budget: $5.5bn
RSA : Budget : $5.5bn.
JAXA : Budget: $2.5bn
Obviously, £80m anywhere else but NASA will go much further.
Still haven't seen a reason provided
IMHO, I think it would be a good idea to have China and India become partners in ISS. Both China and India would add resources and talent. As you can see above, their combined space programs have a budget about the size of JAXA.
China would still want to build their own space station, but through the ISS they could cooperate with other nations on international manned spaceflight. Beyond that, the framework of the ISS partners could be used for BEO manned missions.
In today's world, no one nation has the economic will for manned Lunar or Mars missions. If all the major space programs worked together, then we could finally get out of LEO.
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I can create a poll if no one else does, but I'd like to see it be more than just a yes no... what are the possible alternatives? Here are some I came up with
- No collaboration or cooperation of any sort other than what is required by international law (NOTAMs and the like)
- Sharing research results after the fact (modify ITAR as required in every case from here down)
- Access to the DSN for Chinese scientific missions plus the above
- Flying experiments on each other's vehicles plus the above
- Launching craft on each other's vehicles plus the above
- Invite the Chinese to be an ISS partner (if ESA and other parties agree) plus the above
- Plan the ISS followon to incorporate the Chinese plus the above
- Allow private firms to plan future commercial (ISRU and resource extraction) joint ventures with the Chinese
Thanks. The list is an interesting topic for debating but, IMHO, a bit too technical and long to read and understand. Also for me it would be difficult with to vote with this level of resolution. With 3-4 options it would collect more votes.
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A poll has been created here:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=33581.msg1136927#msg1136927
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Great! Thanks a lot!
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Still haven't seen a reason provided
"More than 70 nations use the International Space Station (ISS) for research today, and a growing realization of its value is driving a sense of urgency to continue the unique facility after the scheduled 2020 shutdown, and replace it once it is gone."
Post-ISS Orbital Outposts Taking Shape By Frank Morring, Jr. Aviation Week
At: http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/AW_09_30_2013_p24-620364.xml
When you have an international science laboratory in space and you exclude the direct participation of a large space-faring nation, it has the appearance that politics is more important than science and you want a political alliance that excludes a significant player on the world stage.
Why should that large space-faring nation then be expected to help you out in trying to resolve international issues?
Have you provided "a reason" to exclude that large space-faring nation?
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The Chinese should not bother collaborating with the USA.
Historically, the USA has a record of breaking agreements and making unilateral decisions which its partners then have to work around. It is much better for China to develop its own expertise and let the USA decline as a "space power".
How do you figure? Chinese HSF launch rate is worse than SLS in its worse case. By end of the decade US will have 2 different HSF launch options, maybe 3. Curiosity's landing on Mars was significantly more difficult than Cheng 3. U.S planetary science is unmatched. No question U.S is in a bit of a lull right now, but hardly on the decline.
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I would suggest to comment only on the actual poll created by Lar not here. See link below:
A poll has been created here:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=33581.msg1136927#msg1136927
please do not comment here anymore!.
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The future of human race lies in the cooperation of the whole human race. We're one.
Sorry, but Utopian ideas never work.
“The farther backward you can look, the farther forward you are likely to see.”
― Winston Churchill
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I was always intrigued by the west estimate of the CNSA budget.
It is impossible to derive a ‘budget’ for CNSA for it is simply not a Chinese counterpart of NASA, ESA, Roscosmos or JAXA. It’s hat that various institutes and individuals from the civilian sector of the space industry wear, when managing public outreach or dealing with the outside world. EVERYONE on the top positions of CNSA has other ‘day jobs’, usually in COSTIND and CAS.
Guess what, the address of the CNSA headquarter is same as the COSTIND, because loosely speaking they are the same institute bearing two different names (that’s an oversimplification but you get what I mean).
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sorry for the question OT, but since today I can't access anymore the actual poll thread:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=33581.new;topicseen#new
I got the e-mail saying "a reply has been posted to a topic you are watching by catiare." but when I click on it I got the message:
"The topic or board you are looking for appears to be either missing or off limits to you.".
Is that normal? Does it happen to anyone else? Or the poll has for some reason removed?
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I also got a strange response. I could view the poll page and then submitted my answer, but was then told I could not view the page!
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do you remember the section the poll was included? I suspect it has been removed but maybe access has been moved. I would be curious to know for which reason. ITAR? :)
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I think it was in the General Discussion section.
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do you remember the section the poll was included? I suspect it has been removed but maybe access has been moved. I would be curious to know for which reason. ITAR? :)
It was going south due to excessive political comments so, although I started the thread, I reported it. I imagine I may not have been the only one who did that.
I just checked through my posts and I can't find any to that thread so I assume it got scotched.
(you can check your posts too by following this link, I think
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts
or
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=40145 (these are mine, the first link will be the reader, for whoever reads this... you, me, whoever)
)
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I checked my posts and that thread has been killed.
Why didn't they remove the offending posts, lock the thread, and leave reasonable ones for people to look at?
Isn't the editing here getting a little heavy handed?
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Isn't the editing here getting a little heavy handed?
If you saw what stuff people started dragging out of the dark corners, no. That thread belonged under politics section in the first place.
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Isn't the editing here getting a little heavy handed?
If you saw what stuff people started dragging out of the dark corners, no. That thread belonged under politics section in the first place.
I missed the worst of it. Good thing, I guess. You're right, that poll should have been in the politics section.
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Frankly speaking I'm astonished by what happened. Why not to cancel the offending posts reminding what can be done and what not, as happened many times?
I noticed since the beginning that the poll was not in the right section, but, first, I would have expected at least a word in this thread to say why the poll itself has been removed. Second, from what I read, very different but interesting point of views, were posted, as expected. No offenses, or harsh discussions. So, I think banning of this poll is someway related to the problem: we are not allowed to talk about the relations in space between these two countries. Imagine if we can think of collaborating!
No problems. Bye bye - I'll go somewhere where polite, on-topic comments can be posted without risking that the time spent writing them is just wasted. Sorry for my (rapid) transit through this website coming to the end and for being concerned about the future of collaboration in space.
Of course read this quickly: I expect it will be cancelled as well any soon as a dangerous form of criticism.
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Frankly speaking I'm astonished by what happened. Why not to cancel the offending posts reminding what can be done and what not, as happened many times?
I noticed since the beginning that the poll was not in the right section, but, first, I would have expected at least a word in this thread to say why the poll itself has been removed. Second, from what I read, very different but interesting point of views, were posted, as expected. No offenses, or harsh discussions. So, I think banning of this poll is someway related to the problem: we are not allowed to talk about the relations in space between these two countries. Imagine if we can think of collaborating!
No problems. Bye bye - I'll go somewhere where polite, on-topic comments can be posted without risking that the time spent writing them is just wasted. Sorry for my (rapid) transit through this website coming to the end and for being concerned about the future of collaboration in space.
Of course read this quickly: I expect it will be cancelled as well any soon as a dangerous form of criticism.
Pagheca, sometimes one or two or fifty or even ninety of your posts get erased or placed in limbo for some unknown period of time.
Maybe I hold this site's absolute record for the number of times my posts have disappeared. :)
I have posted many times "about the relations in space between these two countries" and probably most of those posts are still in their original threads. And, I too am very "concerned about the future of collaboration in space".
In brief, I do learn from and enjoy the wide diversity of excellent articles and useful comments and nifty ideas that are available at this website. And I do enjoy posting here... even when my posts get erased.
Popularity often doesn't have much to do with truth. Folks around the world just celebrated the birthday of an individual who was not rewarded with anything nice for his attempts to communicate the truth as he saw it.
In the big picture, maybe it is wise not to get annoyed or upset about minor issues.
So please don't give up on NASASpaceflight.com!
Have a Happy New Year and keep on posting here!
Cheers!
Edited.