NASASpaceFlight.com Forum
General Discussion => Historical Spaceflight => Topic started by: thydusk666 on 10/09/2013 10:27 pm
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What was the first rocket that really had no connection to the war field?
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Not to be flip, but none...
All have built on knowledge and technology that in some way derived from previous systems and lessons learned, which basically go all the way back to the german A-4.
Now depending how you spin it, Saturn I/Ib/V, Scout, Shuttle, OTRAG,Zenit,Engeria,Pegasus,Atlas V,Delta IV and some Indian launch vehicles could all count to one degree or another.
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If by "rocket" you mean "satellite launcher", and if you mean "ICBM" and not "military system", then Vanguard qualifies.
If you just mean "rocket", there are any numbers of choices, with Aerobee being one.
If you mean "military system", maybe the Shuttle or N-1 qualifies.
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This would make a good thread to discuss what begot what... It is not a completely straight line.
Simple example, it was lesson's learned from the A-4 engine lead to the XLR83-NA-1 rocket engines that boosted the Navaho missile to speed. It was from these engines that the engines that powered the Atlas ICBM and Thor IRBM were derived. Thor become Delta, then Delta II. Atlas had a very long life as a satellite launcher, with the final "true" version being the Atlas III.
Now look at the german Wasserfall rocket. It was designed as an anti aircraft missile after the A-4 (V-2) had been designed. The Soviet adapted the design into what became known as the SCUD. In the US, the engine actually was redesigned and became the engine for the Viking rocket, then Vanguard's first stage.
Funny thing about the Vanguard Able second stage. It was powered by the AJ-10. The same engine that powered the Titan's Transtage, the Apollo Service Module, The Able upper stage became the Thor/Delta upper stage, the Shuttle OMS engines, and I believe was chosen for NASA's Orion Capsule...
Another thing to think about, all large solid's really owe the heritage to the ICBM/SLBM program's.
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Oops, forgot Ariane...
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If indeed the "rocket" here means orbital launcher, then H-II would maybe be a good candidate.
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What was the first rocket that really had no connection to the war field?
An argument can be made for Japan's ISAS Lambda (L-4S), which launched Japan's first satellite in 1970 after several years of failed attempts. Lambda came from a long line of sounding rockets that sprang from early "Pencil" rocket efforts that were to my knowledge always non-military, as required by treaty at the end of WW II. Here's a nice history. http://www.isas.jaxa.jp/e/japan_s_history/detail.shtml
- Ed Kyle
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Funny thing about the Vanguard Able second stage. It was powered by the AJ-10. The same engine that powered the Titan's Transtage, the Apollo Service Module, The Able upper stage became the Thor/Delta upper stage, the Shuttle OMS engines, and I believe was chosen for NASA's Orion Capsule...
Able was derived from the Aerobee sounding rocket.
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Now look at the german Wasserfall rocket. It was designed as an anti aircraft missile after the A-4 (V-2) had been designed. The Soviet adapted the design into what became known as the SCUD. In the US, the engine actually was redesigned and became the engine for the Viking rocket, then Vanguard's first stage.
Which begs the question as to whether the SCUD was a Soviet knockoff of Viking, which flew at least 4 years before Scud.
I dimly recall that there was a French knockoff, too.
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Simple example, it was lesson's learned from the A-4 engine lead to the XLR83-NA-1 rocket engines that boosted the Navaho missile to speed. It was from these engines that the engines that powered the Atlas ICBM and Thor IRBM were derived. Thor become Delta, then Delta II. Atlas had a very long life as a satellite launcher, with the final "true" version being the Atlas III.
Somewhere in there you left out the Redstone engine, which was derived from V2, and was intermediate with Navaho.
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If by launch vehicle, maybe the Falcon 1 in answer to the OP. It's one the few clean sheet designs that I know of.
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Oops, forgot Ariane...
Thanks everyone for your great input.
Was the Ariane 1 a clean sheet design?
Also, did the Ariane 3, 4 and 5 SRB strap-ons have a war-related derivative?
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Ariane was the follow-on to the Europa which used a British Blue Streak MRBM first stage. Military technology did influence the design. Thought Ariane 1 was one of the first to be designed from the ground up for launching to GTO.
All previous GTO rockets where adaptations of existing ICBM/IRBM's with better upper stages.
Most upper stages like Centaur,Agena,and Transtage where designed from the onset for launching satellites. Though most of the people paying the bills for these new upper stages had millitary satellites in mind. Especially Agena.
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The answer is...
It depends.
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Ariane was the follow-on to the Europa which used a British Blue Streak MRBM first stage. Military technology did influence the design. Thought Ariane 1 was one of the first to be designed from the ground up for launching to GTO.
The origin of the Ariane solid fuel boosters is an interesting one: they are based on technology developed in Italy for the submarine-launched Alfa missile of the 70s.
The origin of the Alfa itself is still mostly a secret. How Italy managed to develop a relatively large solid-rocket motor without much previous experience is unclear. According to some, there were talks of a Polaris technology transfer during the 60s as a compensation for the US removing the Jupiter missiles from Italy. One or two Italian ships were even modified to carry the Polaris, although they were only used to fire dummies.
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Ariane was the follow-on to the Europa which used a British Blue Streak MRBM first stage. Military technology did influence the design. Thought Ariane 1 was one of the first to be designed from the ground up for launching to GTO.
There doesn't seem to be any technical connection between the Blue Streak based ELDO launcher and the Ariane. Blue Streak used two engines derived from Navaho, whereas Ariane used Viking engines, derived from I don't know.
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Lambda came from a long line of sounding rockets that sprang from early "Pencil" rocket efforts that were to my knowledge always non-military, as required by treaty at the end of WW II. Here's a nice history. http://www.isas.jaxa.jp/e/japan_s_history/detail.shtml
I immediately thought "Japan" when non-ICBM heritage was mentioned. Every other space power has had a military solid rocket program and shared some tech with it.
ISAS solid rocketry started from the other end - progressing through L-4S and M-V, arguably now with Epsilon the tech is sufficiently far along that it's directly applicable to an ICBM program..
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What do we describe as a "rocket" ?
Several dictionaries describe it as follows (this one from Collins dictionary);
rocket
noun
* a self-propelling device, esp a cylinder containing a mixture of solid explosives, used as a firework, distress signal, line carrier, etc
* any vehicle propelled by a rocket engine, esp one used to carry a warhead, spacecraft, etc
So,by this definition those early "rockets" by folk like Konstantin Eduardovich Tsiolkovsky, Robert Goddard, Hermann Oberth,von Braun (et al German) ,UK BIS pioneers and Valier probably count :-))
Phill
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Well you can go all the way back to Wan Hu but i dont think that was the question - presumably the meaning here was "orbital launcher"
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Lambda came from a long line of sounding rockets that sprang from early "Pencil" rocket efforts that were to my knowledge always non-military, as required by treaty at the end of WW II. Here's a nice history. http://www.isas.jaxa.jp/e/japan_s_history/detail.shtml
I immediately thought "Japan" when non-ICBM heritage was mentioned. Every other space power has had a military solid rocket program and shared some tech with it.
ISAS solid rocketry started from the other end - progressing through L-4S and M-V, arguably now with Epsilon the tech is sufficiently far along that it's directly applicable to an ICBM program..
Except Epsilon is too big for Japan to use as an efficient ICBM. It is MX (Peacekeeper) size. Even the U.S. has abandoned missiles that heavy! Minuteman weighs maybe 40% as much.
- Ed Kyle
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Except Epsilon is too big for Japan to use as an efficient ICBM. It is MX (Peacekeeper) size. Even the U.S. has abandoned missiles that heavy!
- Ed Kyle
Yeah i have seen your arguments at the beginning of this thread (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=18553.msg1098792#msg1098792) but if you look at their development plans, they are doing everything to make it smaller, cheaper to produce and have even smaller (http://science.slashdot.org/story/13/09/14/1521229/japan-controls-rocket-launch-with-just-8-people-and-2-laptops) launch crew. I'm sure it looks a lot like ICBM tech development (http://japanspacepolicy.com/category/epsilon/) program from China side, especially given the apparent lack of payloads for such a vehicle.
But we can have that argument in Epsilon thread ..
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So,by this definition those early "rockets" by folk like Konstantin Eduardovich Tsiolkovsky, Robert Goddard, Hermann Oberth,von Braun (et al German) ,UK BIS pioneers and Valier probably count :-))
Goddard was my first thought, as well, since he invented the liquid-fueled rocket.
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I'm going with the Diamant SLV, because the only land-based strategic missiles deployed by France, the S2 and S3, were developed and fielded several years after the first launch of the Diamant.
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I'm going with the Diamant SLV, because the only land-based strategic missiles deployed by France, the S2 and S3, were developed and fielded several years after the first launch of the Diamant.
This is very hastly put togethet but here is the general development tree of the rockets that became the stages of the Diamant launcher family:
German V-2/A-4, Super V-2 (cancelled IRBM that became Veronique series), Veronique-P2/P6, N, R, AGI, 61M), Vesta, Emeraude (VE-121), Topaze (VE111C, L), Saphir (P, R, G (VE-231)), Diamant-A, Diamant-B, Diamant-BC, and Diamant-BP4.
Diamant versions changed with the versions of the
military derived rockets/sounding rockets which formed Diamant's stages. Stage prototypes that make up the Diamant family of stages are Agate, Topaze, Emeraude, Rubis and Saphir (Agate, Topaz, Emerald, Ruby and Sapphire). The Second Stage of Diamant-BP4 uses the P4 civilian version of the M1 MSBS second stage. The BP4 version ended the same year the M1 MSBS SRBM was retired from service. The cancelled Diamant-C was to use both stages from the M2 MSBS SRBM with each successive Diamant versions boost section to correspond with each successive MX SRBM generation but that never came to fruition.
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Vanguard
Mu-3S
Ariane 1
But it is a very relative question indeed...
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What about Saturn V? I know Redstone, Atlas, and Titan was ICBM or IRBM derived. Don't know about other countries.
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Saturn 1 before Saturn 5. But I think Vanguard has to take the prize.
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Saturn 1 before Saturn 5. But I think Vanguard has to take the prize.
The Vanguard was based on the Navy's RTV-N-12a Viking sounding rocket, and the Saturn I was derived from the Redstone short-range ballistic missile.
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Saturn 1 before Saturn 5. But I think Vanguard has to take the prize.
The Vanguard was based on the Navy's RTV-N-12a Viking sounding rocket, and the Saturn I was derived from the Redstone short-range ballistic missile.
Good point about the Saturn 1 (cluster tanks etc), but re: Viking, a sounding rocket is different from an ICBM.
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Saturn 1 before Saturn 5. But I think Vanguard has to take the prize.
The Vanguard was based on the Navy's RTV-N-12a Viking sounding rocket, a
that is a non weapon system and hence meets the criteria of a non ICBM derived rocket.
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.... and the Saturn I was derived from the Redstone short-range ballistic missile.
And Jupiter missile, which both are not ICBMs. So Saturn I means the criteria.
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.... and the Saturn I was derived from the Redstone short-range ballistic missile.
And Jupiter missile, which both are not ICBMs. So Saturn I means the criteria.
Except for its propulsion, which was derived from Navaho/Atlas propulsion.
- Ed Kyle
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.... and the Saturn I was derived from the Redstone short-range ballistic missile.
And Jupiter missile, which both are not ICBMs. So Saturn I means the criteria.
wasn't Jupiter an IRBM ? ;D
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.... and the Saturn I was derived from the Redstone short-range ballistic missile.
And Jupiter missile, which both are not ICBMs. So Saturn I means the criteria.
wasn't Jupiter an IRBM ? ;D
The PGM-19 Jupiter (100 IRBM/MRBM produced) was both an IRBM and SLBM (withdrawn after development and replaced by the kore capable Polaris SLBM ) with its follow on being the Juno-II which was a four stage orbital launcher. Unrelated was the ABMA Huntsville operation which had its Chrysler ABMA designed Jupiter-C (C for Civil) and its follow on Juno-I which were both derived from the older PGM-11 Redstone (128 SRBM Produced), which later was modified to create the Jupiter-C and the Mercury Redstone variants. Both retired families were later reused to make the initial first stage version of the Saturn-I/IB which was upon stockpile depletion be replaced by a new first stage using a version of the monolithic AJ-260 SRM. 152 PGM-11 Redstone family fuel tanks and 19 PGM-19 Jupiter oxygen tanks were modifed that were flown.
Side by side comparison of the pre Juno-I/II variants.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jupiter-C_vs_Jupiter_IRBM.jpg
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The Saturns I and IB made use of tanks of the same diameters (70 & 105 inches) as the Redstone and Jupiter that were produced with the same tooling, but the lengths differed.
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So I think Japan's ISAS rockets are serious candidates to answer that thread question. Although, maybe not...
ISAS had a project called the "Q rocket" which uncannily looked like an ICBM in disguise. But that project was scrapped for the brand new and separate NASDA with a Thor-Delta licence - later the N-1 and N-2 boosters. This was also related to the return of Okinawa to Japan, in the early 1970's...
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=%22ISAS%22%22Q+rocket%22%22Okinawa%22
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So I think Japan's ISAS rockets are serious candidates to answer that thread question. Although, maybe not...
ISAS had a project called the "Q rocket" which uncannily looked like an ICBM in disguise. But that project was scrapped for the brand new and separate NASDA with a Thor-Delta licence - later the N-1 and N-2 boosters. This was also related to the return of Okinawa to Japan, in the early 1970's...
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=%22ISAS%22%22Q+rocket%22%22Okinawa%22
If the thread question is rephrased as "is there any country that developed medium to large space rockets without a declared concurrent or prior ICBM or IRBM" then I think Japan may be the only case so far ?
I had wondered if Japan had been banned from rocketry post WWII and if I've read correctly they were, but only to 1954. The university of Tokyo team that became ISAS then started up, to be followed by NASDA in 1969. As well (?) as, or after, the Q another all Japanese liquid booster, the original N, was then started but the license built Thor-derived N-1 and N-2 then superseded it. Source is Gatland, "Missiles and rockets" from mid 1970s, I may well have got it garbled.
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Yup, there was another "N" rocket. After the "Q". Japan & ISAS were going full bore with their rocketry projects.
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Yup, there was another "N" rocket. After the "Q". Japan & ISAS were going full bore with their rocketry projects.
Thought this comparison from the Gatland book, drawn by the inimitable Jack Wood studio was nice.