NASASpaceFlight.com Forum

Commercial and US Government Launch Vehicles => SNC Dream Chaser Section => Topic started by: archipeppe68 on 11/19/2012 12:59 pm

Title: From HL-20 to Dream Chaser, the long story of a little spaceplane
Post by: archipeppe68 on 11/19/2012 12:59 pm
Here it is.

Ciao
Giuseppe
Title: Re: From HL-20 to Dream Chaser, the long story of a little spaceplane
Post by: BrightLight on 11/19/2012 02:34 pm
Outstanding - thank you Giuseppe
Title: Re: From HL-20 to Dream Chaser, the long story of a little spaceplane
Post by: BrightLight on 11/19/2012 04:06 pm
Observation on the drawings - on#20 the "front view" is actually the "Rear view", and the occupants/astronauts are facing backwards
Title: Re: From HL-20 to Dream Chaser, the long story of a little spaceplane
Post by: archipeppe68 on 11/20/2012 06:52 am
Observation on the drawings - on#20 the "front view" is actually the "Rear view", and the occupants/astronauts are facing backwards

Many Thanks BrightLight, I miss such information.

BTW I have a question: I suppose that pilot and co-pilot are facing through the windows while the other ones are facing backwards, is it correct?
Title: Re: From HL-20 to Dream Chaser, the long story of a little spaceplane
Post by: hkultala on 11/20/2012 07:17 am
Observation on the drawings - on#20 the "front view" is actually the "Rear view", and the occupants/astronauts are facing backwards

Many Thanks BrightLight, I miss such information.

BTW I have a question: I suppose that pilot and co-pilot are facing through the windows while the other ones are facing backwards, is it correct?

I think you completely misunderstood what he meant.

He just said one of your your picture has a wrong title.
Title: Re: From HL-20 to Dream Chaser, the long story of a little spaceplane
Post by: corgius on 11/20/2012 08:27 am
Observation on the drawings - on#20 the "front view" is actually the "Rear view", and the occupants/astronauts are facing backwards

in my opinion, you are wrong.

in picture n. 20, the Dream Chaser, by my point of view, is cutted between the second and the third row of seats, and then viewed front side.

ciao

peppe
Title: Re: From HL-20 to Dream Chaser, the long story of a little spaceplane
Post by: archipeppe68 on 11/20/2012 09:19 am
Observation on the drawings - on#20 the "front view" is actually the "Rear view", and the occupants/astronauts are facing backwards

in my opinion, you are wrong.

in picture n. 20, the Dream Chaser, by my point of view, is cutted between the second and the third row of seats, and then viewed front side.

ciao

peppe

So, let me made up my mind.

Corgius has taken my point, Slide 20 view is correct.

I cut (ideally, of course) the DC looking backward (from front to back, I mean) so the view is correct (by drawing point of view).

Title: Re: From HL-20 to Dream Chaser, the long story of a little spaceplane
Post by: BrightLight on 11/20/2012 03:27 pm
Observation on the drawings - on#20 the "front view" is actually the "Rear view", and the occupants/astronauts are facing backwards

in my opinion, you are wrong.

in picture n. 20, the Dream Chaser, by my point of view, is cutted between the second and the third row of seats, and then viewed front side.

ciao

peppe

So, let me made up my mind.

Corgius has taken my point, Slide 20 view is correct.

I cut (ideally, of course) the DC looking backward (from front to back, I mean) so the view is correct (by drawing point of view).

As I see it, the image says "Front View" but the view is of the rear of the DC, further the occupants are facing the rear of DC, but the other views show the occupants facing forward, towards the front of the vehicle.
Regardless, your work is excellent.
Title: Re: From HL-20 to Dream Chaser, the long story of a little spaceplane
Post by: manboy on 11/20/2012 06:45 pm
Here it is.

Ciao
Giuseppe
Very cool but the seats on both the HL-20 and DreamChaser are spaced further apart to create a very narrow aisle between the two groups to allow the crew to exit through the rear of the craft.
Title: Re: From HL-20 to Dream Chaser, the long story of a little spaceplane
Post by: BrightLight on 11/20/2012 07:37 pm
Here it is.

Ciao
Giuseppe
Very cool but the seats on both the HL-20 and DreamChaser are spaced further apart to create a very narrow aisle between the two groups to allow the crew to exit through the rear of the craft.
Point of clarity - is this a HL-20 mock-up or a Dream Chaser mock-up.
Title: Re: From HL-20 to Dream Chaser, the long story of a little spaceplane
Post by: manboy on 11/20/2012 10:01 pm
Here it is.

Ciao
Giuseppe
Very cool but the seats on both the HL-20 and DreamChaser are spaced further apart to create a very narrow aisle between the two groups to allow the crew to exit through the rear of the craft.
Point of clarity - is this a HL-20 mock-up or a Dream Chaser mock-up.
Both. It was originally built around 1990 as the HL-20 mock-up. In June 2006, NASA Langley removed it from storage, resembled it and shipped it to Space Dev (which is now owned by Sierra Nevada). There it was used as the Dream Chaser mock-up. The picture I posted above was taken in July 2006 and so was this one.
Title: Re: From HL-20 to Dream Chaser, the long story of a little spaceplane
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 11/21/2012 01:16 am
In June 2006, NASA Langley removed it from storage, resembled it and shipped it to Space Dev (which is now owned by Sierra Nevada).

Wrong, the HL-20 was displayed at the Virginia Air and Space Museum fully assembled, it was not in storage or in pieces. I witnessed it there quite often. The Virginia Air and Space Museum is also the Visitor's center for LaRC.
Title: Re: From HL-20 to Dream Chaser, the long story of a little spaceplane
Post by: Rocket Science on 11/21/2012 01:25 am
In June 2006, NASA Langley removed it from storage, resembled it and shipped it to Space Dev (which is now owned by Sierra Nevada).

Wrong, the HL-20 was displayed at the Virginia Air and Space Museum fully assembled, it was not in storage or in pieces. I witnessed it there quite often. The Virginia Air and Space Museum is also the Visitor's center for LaRC.
Ron is right... ;)
Title: Re: From HL-20 to Dream Chaser, the long story of a little spaceplane
Post by: manboy on 11/21/2012 02:54 am
In June 2006, NASA Langley removed it from storage, resembled it and shipped it to Space Dev (which is now owned by Sierra Nevada).

Wrong, the HL-20 was displayed at the Virginia Air and Space Museum fully assembled, it was not in storage or in pieces. I witnessed it there quite often. The Virginia Air and Space Museum is also the Visitor's center for LaRC.
Than what's going on here?  ???

http://archive.org/search.php?query=HL-20%20Full%20Scale%20Mockup%20Loading%20and%20Transport
Title: Re: From HL-20 to Dream Chaser, the long story of a little spaceplane
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 11/21/2012 03:21 am
In June 2006, NASA Langley removed it from storage, resembled it and shipped it to Space Dev (which is now owned by Sierra Nevada).

Wrong, the HL-20 was displayed at the Virginia Air and Space Museum fully assembled, it was not in storage or in pieces. I witnessed it there quite often. The Virginia Air and Space Museum is also the Visitor's center for LaRC.
Than what's going on here?  ???

http://archive.org/search.php?query=HL-20%20Full%20Scale%20Mockup%20Loading%20and%20Transport

Disassembly for transport.
Title: Re: From HL-20 to Dream Chaser, the long story of a little spaceplane
Post by: Elmar Moelzer on 11/23/2012 03:38 pm
Very cool! Never knew about the HL-42. Learned something new today, thanks!
Title: Re: From HL-20 to Dream Chaser, the long story of a little spaceplane
Post by: Khadgars on 11/25/2012 08:05 pm
Very cool.  Just curious for people's opinion, but what are the chances that Dream Chaser actually makes it to crewed flights?
Title: Re: From HL-20 to Dream Chaser, the long story of a little spaceplane
Post by: manboy on 11/25/2012 10:42 pm
Very cool.  Just curious for people's opinion, but what are the chances that Dream Chaser actually makes it to crewed flights?
Various sources have stated that there will likely only one provider chosen to deliver crew and erioladastra has stated (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=29593.msg946862#msg946862) that Dream Chaser is behind Beoing and SpaceX.
Title: Re: From HL-20 to Dream Chaser, the long story of a little spaceplane
Post by: Patchouli on 11/25/2012 11:24 pm
Various sources have stated that there will likely only one provider chosen to deliver crew and erioladastra has stated (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=29593.msg946862#msg946862) that Dream Chaser is behind Beoing and SpaceX.

Having a single provider would defeat the biggest advantage of commercial crew which is redundancy.

It should be noted Dream Chaser's method of decent and landing is well tested the same cannot be said for Spacex's chosen method for the crewed version of their vehicle.
Title: Re: From HL-20 to Dream Chaser, the long story of a little spaceplane
Post by: manboy on 11/25/2012 11:54 pm
Various sources have stated that there will likely only one provider chosen to deliver crew and erioladastra has stated (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=29593.msg946862#msg946862) that Dream Chaser is behind Beoing and SpaceX.

Having a single provider would defeat the biggest advantage of commercial crew which is redundancy.

It should be noted Dream Chaser's method of decent and landing is well tested the same cannot be said for Spacex's chosen method for the crewed version of their vehicle.

I'm not defending the downselect or criticizing the Dream Chaser design. Anyway this isn't the best topic to discuss this.
Title: Re: From HL-20 to Dream Chaser, the long story of a little spaceplane
Post by: GClark on 11/26/2012 05:49 am
Giuseppe,

First of all, thank you for this.  Very well done.

A couple of suggestions:

1 - On slide 6, the school should be NC A&T (North Carolina A&T).

2 - I noticed you did not include either the origin of Spiral, the Tsybin PKA, or the sub-scale BOR-1, -2, -3, or -6?

V/R,
Title: Re: From HL-20 to Dream Chaser, the long story of a little spaceplane
Post by: archipeppe68 on 11/26/2012 07:31 am
Thanks a lot for your suggestions GClark.

1 - I take a note on this, find out info about the famous HL-20 was quite difficult and I misunderstood the University name, my bad..

2 - I was tempeted to include the whole Spiral development family, but it lead to a too much complex slide, even graphically, so I choose to left behind those information since I reputed they were slightly off topic (regarding the HL-20/Dream Chaser development history).

Anyway thanks again.

Ciao
Giuseppe

Giuseppe,

First of all, thank you for this.  Very well done.

A couple of suggestions:

1 - On slide 6, the school should be NC A&T (North Carolina A&T).

2 - I noticed you did not include either the origin of Spiral, the Tsybin PKA, or the sub-scale BOR-1, -2, -3, or -6?

V/R,

Title: Re: From HL-20 to Dream Chaser, the long story of a little spaceplane
Post by: GClark on 11/26/2012 08:24 am
I understand.  It is quite the development tree, to be sure.

I live in Southeastern Virginia and I'd never heard of NC A&T either until I read about the HL-20 test article.

As I said, very nice work.  Much appreciated.
Title: Re: From HL-20 to Dream Chaser, the long story of a little spaceplane
Post by: john smith 19 on 01/03/2013 07:35 am
Having a single provider would defeat the biggest advantage of commercial crew which is redundancy.

I think the competition between 3 providers may have been quite helpful as well.  :)

However just because going single provider would defeat that advantage does not mean is not how it will end up.

Decision making has not always been sensible.  :(

But to return to topic...
Title: Re: From HL-20 to Dream Chaser, the long story of a little spaceplane
Post by: yg1968 on 01/03/2013 10:54 pm
Very cool.  Just curious for people's opinion, but what are the chances that Dream Chaser actually makes it to crewed flights?
Various sources have stated that there will likely only one provider chosen to deliver crew and erioladastra has stated (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=29593.msg946862#msg946862) that Dream Chaser is behind Beoing and SpaceX.

Actually, NASA has left open the possibility of certifying two commercial crew systems even if they end up using only one of them for CTS.
Title: Re: From HL-20 to Dream Chaser, the long story of a little spaceplane
Post by: Rocket Science on 01/03/2013 11:34 pm
Let's not forget about the little known "Yellowbird" that very few people  ever write about. I see it as the beginning of the concept for a reusable taxi to an orbital space station.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=27178.0
Title: Re: From HL-20 to Dream Chaser, the long story of a little spaceplane
Post by: archipeppe68 on 05/19/2013 11:11 am
Here it is the updated slide 8 since I've done a couple of errors (LaRC not DFRC while it was developed in 1993 rather than 1997).

I wanna thanks Dr. Ted Talay to allow me correcting the HL-42 infos.


Ciao
Giuseppe
Title: Re: From HL-20 to Dream Chaser, the long story of a little spaceplane
Post by: Lobo on 05/21/2013 12:14 am
Here it is the updated slide 8 since I've done a couple of errors (LaRC not DFRC while it was developed in 1993 rather than 1997).

I wanna thanks Dr. Ted Talay to allow me correcting the HL-42 infos.


Ciao
Giuseppe


Yea, be interesting to think about an alternative history where HL-20, and then HL-42 was developed to fly axially on some type of ELV, specifically to service a space station.
Would have been a much more moderate first stab at reusability and space planes than going from Apollo to the Shuttle.

Title: Re: From HL-20 to Dream Chaser, the long story of a little spaceplane
Post by: archipeppe68 on 05/21/2013 07:19 am

Yea, be interesting to think about an alternative history where HL-20, and then HL-42 was developed to fly axially on some type of ELV, specifically to service a space station.
Would have been a much more moderate first stab at reusability and space planes than going from Apollo to the Shuttle.


I agree.

If HL-20/42 would put into service, Shuttle would be retired earlier. No Columbia loss and for sure HL-42 would be in service still today.
 
As side effect no gap between Shuttle retirement and next commercial crew service and also no U.S. need for Soyuz seats (which cost so much!!). Probably HL-42 would also serve as lifeboat instead of the planned X-38 and instead of the current Soyuz capsules.
Title: Re: From HL-20 to Dream Chaser, the long story of a little spaceplane
Post by: CitabriaFlyer on 05/21/2013 10:40 am
Much has been made about Dream Chaser's advantages in terms of being able to land at a benign environment on many runways around the world but I have not read anything about its performance during a boost phase.  In the event of an engine shutdown during the boost phase does Dream Chaser have a better chance of getting to an East Coast runway and NOT dumping the crew into the North Atlantic?
Title: Re: From HL-20 to Dream Chaser, the long story of a little spaceplane
Post by: JBF on 05/21/2013 10:47 am
Much has been made about Dream Chaser's advantages in terms of being able to land at a benign environment on many runways around the world but I have not read anything about its performance during a boost phase.  In the event of an engine shutdown during the boost phase does Dream Chaser have a better chance of getting to an East Coast runway and NOT dumping the crew into the North Atlantic?

It has been studied with the HL-20. Do a search on "Launch pad abort of the HL-20 lifting body"  I can't seem to find a copy available for free. Anyone have a real link?

(http://dscb.larc.nasa.gov/DCBStaff/ebj/OnePagers/abort.gif)