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International Space Flight (ESA, Russia, China and others) => Indian Launchers => Topic started by: Satori on 11/14/2010 08:39 pm

Title: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Satori on 11/14/2010 08:39 pm
Which platform is going to be used on this launch?
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P, December 2010 Launch
Post by: tonthomas on 11/15/2010 06:59 pm
Pad 2 as I read in The Hindu.

Thomas
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P, December 2010 Launch
Post by: input~2 on 11/26/2010 08:12 pm
Launch now planned for December 20.                     
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P, December 2010 Launch
Post by: isro-watch on 11/27/2010 06:13 am
Which platform is going to be used on this launch?

The first launch pad has a fully assembled PSLV on it....ready for Resoucesat-2 mission.

GSLV is using the second launch pad (SLV)
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P, December 2010 Launch
Post by: input~2 on 12/11/2010 02:06 pm
Launch confirmed for December 20 at around 4pm (LT), i.e. around 1030 UTC
http://www.hindustantimes.com/ISRO-to-launch-new-satellite-on-December-20/Article1-637241.aspx
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 20, 2010 Launch
Post by: seshagirib on 12/15/2010 04:17 pm
ISRO website has the picture of the  vehicle (GSLV-F06) on the launch pad"

http://isro.org/gslv-f06/Imagegallery/launchvehicle.aspx#0
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 20, 2010 Launch
Post by: seshagirib on 12/15/2010 04:22 pm
ISRO website has the picture of the  vehicle (GSLV-F06) on the launch pad"

http://isro.org/gslv-f06/Imagegallery/launchvehicle.aspx#0

And the brochure:

http://isro.org/news/pdf/gslvf06-gsat5p.pdf
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 20, 2010 Launch
Post by: Salo on 12/16/2010 11:38 am
GSLV-F06 will fly with russian C15 upper stage. It is a first indo-russian GSLV MkII.
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 20, 2010 Launch
Post by: Mighty-T on 12/16/2010 11:40 am
Am I right to assume that GSAT-5P is what has been initially INSAT-4D (which was then renamed GSAT-5). Does anyone know what the additional "P" stands for?
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 20, 2010 Launch
Post by: Salo on 12/16/2010 12:59 pm
Prime.
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 20, 2010 Launch
Post by: Danderman on 12/16/2010 02:41 pm
GSLV-F06 will fly with russian C15 upper stage. It is a first indo-russian GSLV MkII.

I was under the impression that what made the GSLV a Mark II was the use of the Indian upper stage.
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 20, 2010 Launch
Post by: Skyrocket on 12/16/2010 03:04 pm
GSLV-F06 will fly with russian C15 upper stage. It is a first indo-russian GSLV MkII.

I was under the impression that what made the GSLV a Mark II was the use of the Indian upper stage.


I would call it a Mk I with lengthened upper stage (C-15 instead of C-12)
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 20, 2010 Launch
Post by: Salo on 12/16/2010 04:53 pm
http://isro.us/launch-vehicles/gslv.html
Quote
GSLV MK II, earlier referred to as GSLV D3, will carry an Indian developed cryogenic third stage which will eventually be capable of launching 2,500 kg into Geostationary Transfer Orbit (GTO). The cryogenic engines that have powered the GSLV rocket so far were sold to India by Russia. Of the seven cryogenic engines supplied, five have now been used. Eventually, all future GSLV's will use the Indian Cryogenic Upper Stage (CUS) that develops 9 ton of thrust against 7.5 ton of the Russian CUS and carries 15 ton of propellant against 12.5 ton.
KVD-1A has а trust 9.5 tf.

Links (only russian):
http://www.novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/content/numbers/238/22.shtml
http://engine.aviaport.ru/issues/62/page42.html
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 20, 2010 Launch
Post by: Salo on 12/18/2010 02:34 pm
There are rumours on NK-forum about new contract between ISRO and Khrunichev space center on six upper stages.
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 20, 2010 Launch
Post by: input~2 on 12/18/2010 03:34 pm
Launch confirmed for Monday December 20 at 4pm (LT), 1030UTC
http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/isro-to-launch-its-fifth-satellite-in-gsat-series/418735/
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 20, 2010 Launch
Post by: input~2 on 12/18/2010 03:50 pm
A2230/10 -[...] .  GSLV-F06 ROCKET LAUNCHING FM SHAR RANGE, SRIHARIKOTA IS SCHEDULED ON 20TH DECEMBER 2010 BTN 1000-1300UTC. [...]. LAUNCH WINDOW FOR THE REMAINING PERIOD FROM 21ST DECEMBER 2010 TO 09TH JANUARY 2011 SHALL BE KEPT ALIVE FOR RESCHEDULING OF LAUNCH IF REQUIRED. GND - UNL, 20 DEC  10:00 2010 UNTIL 20 DEC 13:00 2010. CREATED: 16 DEC 09:20 2010
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 20, 2010 Launch
Post by: Salo on 12/18/2010 09:53 pm
http://www.hindustantimes.com/GSLV-rocket-now-taller-heavier/Article1-639557.aspx
Quote
GSLV rocket now taller, heavier

Chennai, December 17, 2010
First Published: 15:02 IST(17/12/2010)

India's geosynchronous satellite launch vehicle (GSLV), scheduled to blast off on Monday with an advanced communication satellite (GSAT-5P), is now taller by two metres and heavier by four tonnes as compared to its standard configuration. The Indian Space Research Organisation's standard configuration for the GSLV rocket is a height of 49 metres and 414 tonnes in weight at lift-off.

The rocket that would lift off Monday stands 51 metres tall and weighs 418 tonnes.

PS Veeraraghavan, director of the Vikram Sarabhai Space Centre, told IANS: "This time the fuel quantity for the cryogenic engine has increased and its thrust power has also gone up. The rocket will be carrying a heavier satellite (GSAT-5P) weighing 2,310 kg."

The Russian made cryogenic engine will be powered with 15.2 tonnes of fuel (liquid hydrogen as fuel and liquid oxygen as oxidizer), an increase of around three tonnes, and the engine's length has also increased.

The rocket has a bigger heat shield - four-metres in diameter and made of fibre reinforced plastic (FRP) - as compared to the standard configuration of 3.4-metre diameter made of aluminium alloy metal.

With the changes in rocket's configuration, necessary calibrations have been carried out in the rocket's navigational systems, control dynamics and aerodynamics so that the flight is smooth and the mission is successful, a source associated with ISRO told IANS.

Over the years, the carrying capacity of the GSLV has also increased -- from 1,530 kg in 2001 for GSAT-1 to 2,220 kg for GSAT-4 in April 2010.

The latest has a payload of 2,310 kg with 36 transponders -- an automatic receiver and transmitter of communication or broadcast signals. Successful launch of the satellite will take the agency's transponder capacity to around 235 from 200 in orbit now.
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P launch postponed
Post by: lnb15k on 12/19/2010 09:46 am
Launch postponed.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/article963362.ece

Quote
The launch of the GSLV F06 with GSAT -5prime satellite on board, scheduled to take place on Monday (Dec.20) at 4 pm from Sriharikota has been postponed due to a minor leak in one of the valves of the Russian cryogenic stage. This leak was noticed during the pre-count down checks. The ISRO’s Launch Authorisation Board that met on Sunday at Sriharikota, therefore did not give the permission to go ahead with the 29 hr countdown which was to begin at 11am on Sunday.

The date for the new launch will be announced after ISRO’s rocket technologists find the cause for the leak and take remedial action.
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 20, 2010 Launch
Post by: Salo on 12/19/2010 03:50 pm
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/national/engine-leak-delays-gsat-5p-launch-191
Quote
The GSLV-FO6 has major changes incorporated as compared to the previous flights. It includes the loading of 15 tonnes of propellants in its third stage of flight and the uprating of the third stage thrust by 26 per cent, ISRO said.
7.5 tf X 1.26 = 9.45 tf
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 20, 2010 Launch
Post by: Salo on 12/20/2010 09:05 am
http://news.in.msn.com/national/article.aspx?cp-documentid=4720346
Quote
20/12/2010
ISRO may take a call on GSLV mission tomorrow

Bangalore,Dec20 (PTI) Indian Space Research Organisation is expected to take a decision tomorrow on the fresh date for launch of GSAT-5P satellite on board Geo-Synchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle (GSLV-F06) after conducting an experiment to study the leak that led to the mission''s postponement.
As of now, it appears to be a "liveable leak", an ISRO official told PTI here, a day after the space agency put off the launch from the spaceport of Sriharikota due to a "minor leak" in one of the valves of the Russian Cryogenic stage, observed during the pre-countdown checks.
"We are planning to do a small experiment tomorrow to ascertain the cause for the leak. If the leak is the same (as noticed during the pre-countdown checks), then we can go ahead with the launch. If the leak is increasing... beyond certain limits, then we have to stop (the mission)," the official said on condition of anonymity.
If things are okay after verifications, ISRO might schedule the launch for Thursday, sources in the Bangalore-headquartered agency said.
The 29-hour countdown planned to commence at 11 am yesterday had not been authorised by the Launch Authorisation Board that met in the forenoon to review the results of pre-countdown checks.
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 20, 2010 Launch
Post by: Salo on 12/20/2010 03:08 pm
http://www.sify.com/news/indian-russian-scientists-discuss-rocket-launch-delay-news-national-kmunEmigddj.html
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 20, 2010 Launch
Post by: input~2 on 12/20/2010 03:45 pm
A2251/10 - [...].   GSLV-F06 ROCKET LAUNCHING FM SHAR RANGE, SHRIHARIKOTA IS SCHEDULED ON 23/12/2010. [...]. LAUNCH WINDOW FOR THE REMAINING  PERIOD FM 24/12/2010 TO 09/01/2011 SHALL BE KEPT ALIVE FOR RESCHEDULING OF LAUNCH IF REQUIRED. GND - UNL, 23 DEC 10:00 2010  UNTIL 23 DEC 13:00 2010. CREATED: 20 DEC 14:22 2010
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 20, 2010 Launch
Post by: seshagirib on 12/21/2010 03:24 pm
^Input_2, do you have source for the above rescheduled date?
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 20, 2010 Launch
Post by: input~2 on 12/21/2010 04:34 pm
^Input_2, do you have source for the above rescheduled date?
This is a NOTAM created by the responsible Air Traffic Control administration
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 20, 2010 Launch
Post by: Salo on 12/21/2010 09:06 pm
http://netindian.in/news/2010/12/21/0009425/isro-take-final-decision-gslv-launch-tomorrow
Quote
ISRO to take final decision on GSLV launch tomorrow

United News of India
Chennai, December 21, 2010

A final decision on a new date for the launch of India's advanced and heaviest communication satellite GSAT-5P, by the Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle (GSLV-F06), using Russian cryogenic stage, is expected to be taken by tomorrow afternoon.

Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) sources told UNI here today crucial tests were going at the spaceport of Sriharikota, about 100 km from here, in this regard.

"The tests will continue till tomorrow morning. After the outcome of the tests are known, the scientists will take a final decision on the launch of GSLV Mission", ISRO spokesman S Satish said.

The launch was earlier scheduled for Decemebr 20, but it was postponed after a leak was noticed in one of the valves of the Russian cryogenic engine during pre-countdown tests.

Subsequently, the T-29 hour countdown, scheduled to begin at 1101 hrs on December 19, was stopped.

The spokesman told UNI that an announcement on the date of launch was expected around tomorrow afternoon.

"The tests are continuing and will continue all through the night and tomorrow morning. We can expect some announcement on the date of launch by tomorrow afternoon," he added.
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 20, 2010 Launch
Post by: kanaka on 12/22/2010 12:31 am
How reliable are Russian Cryos? Is there any fault in manifacturing of cryos itself or our scientists don't have know how about it? This is not for first time ISRO has faced using Russian Cryo in GSLV. I think India should postpone GSLV trials unless its own CRYO gets ready (which should have been done by now.)
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December, 2010 Launch
Post by: Danderman on 12/22/2010 04:18 am
The real problem may not be the leak, but what is being leaked upon.
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 20, 2010 Launch
Post by: Salo on 12/22/2010 05:03 am
How reliable are Russian Cryos? Is there any fault in manifacturing of cryos itself or our scientists don't have know how about it? This is not for first time ISRO has faced using Russian Cryo in GSLV. I think India should postpone GSLV trials unless its own CRYO gets ready (which should have been done by now.)
How reliable are Indian LV? Are You remember leaks on the second stages PSLV-C15 and GSLV Mk III?
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December, 2010 Launch
Post by: Salo on 12/22/2010 01:58 pm
http://www.domain-b.com/aero/space/satellites/20101222_flight_plans.html
Quote
ISRO clears GSLV launch after tests news   

22 December 2010      

Chennai: The Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) on Wednesday began preparing for the launch of an advanced communications satellite once again after investigations into a leaking rocket engine valve revealed no danger to flight plans.

The flight of ISRO's heaviest rocket, the Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle (GSLV-F06), which has a cryogenic final stage, had to be aborted after the fault developed. The cryogenic engine has been supplied by Russia.

The leak in the engine was detected during the pre-countdown tests on Sunday, even as the 51-metre tall rocket was already placed on the launch pad at Sriharikota.

The GSAT-5P satellite is meant to retire the INSAT-2E sent up in 1999 and ensure continuity of telecom, TV and weather services. The flight was originally scheduled for Monday.

According to S Satish, director, ISRO: ''The test results are satisfactory and the rocket's launch date is being finalised.''

The tests were conducted Tuesday to gauge the extent of the valve leak in consultation with Russian scientists. The Russians had supplied seven cryogenic engines through an earlier contract, of which five have already been used in earlier GSLV launches.
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December, 2010 Launch
Post by: input~2 on 12/22/2010 04:03 pm
New NOTAM:
A2260/10 - [...].   GSLV-F06 ROCKET LAUNCHING FM SHAR RANGE, SHRIHARIKOTA IS SCHEDULED ON 25/12/2010 BTN 1000-1300UTC. [...]. LAUNCH WINDOW FOR THE REMAINING  PERIOD FM 26/12/2010 TO 09/01/2011 SHALL BE KEPT ALIVE FOR RESCHEDULING OF LAUNCH IF REQUIRED. GND - UNL, 25 DEC 10:00 2010  UNTIL 25 DEC 13:00 2010. CREATED: 22 DEC 13:06 2010
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December, 2010 Launch
Post by: Salo on 12/22/2010 05:09 pm
http://news.in.msn.com/national/article.aspx?cp-documentid=4730640
Quote
GSLV mission to be launched on Dec 25

Bangalore, Dec 22 (PTI) The launch of India''s latest communication satellite GSAT-5P has now been slated for December 25, a week after it was put off following a leak in the Russian cryogenic stage of the launch vehicle.

"The launch is scheduled for December 25 at 4.01 pm (from the spaceport of Sriharikota in Andhra Pradesh). A 29-hour countdown will start on December 24 at 11.01 am," Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) spokesperson S Satish told PTI here.

The satellite would be launched by ISRO''s Geo-Synchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle (GSLV-F06), powered by Russian cryogenic stage.

The spacecraft, which would boost India''s communication services including TV and telecommunication, was originally slated for launch on December 20.

But a day earlier, the space agency put off the launch due to a "minor leak" in one of the valves of the Russian Cryogenic stage, observed during the pre-countdown checks.

After the postponement, ISRO said the revised date would be finalised after ascertaining the cause of the leak, remedial actions and due verifications.

Earlier in the day, another ISRO official said on condition of anonymity that the "leak had remained the same and it had not increased which means it is a liveable leak and the mission had been given a go-ahead".
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December, 2010 Launch
Post by: Salo on 12/22/2010 07:45 pm
http://www.sify.com/news/india-to-launch-advanced-communications-satellite-dec-25-news-national-kmwv4jcigic.html
Quote
India to launch advanced communications satellite Dec 25
2010-12-22 21:30:00

Chennai, Dec 22 (IANS) With investigations into a leak in a rocket engine's valve providing satisfactory results Wednesday, the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) will celebrate Christmas by launching an advanced communications satellite, an official.

'The test results are satisfactory and the rocket's launch is scheduled Dec 25. The launch countdown will begin 11 a.m. Friday,'

S. Satish, a director at ISRO, told IANS.

The rocket carrying the GSAT-5P satellite is expected to blast off from the second launch pad between 4 p.m.-4.15 p.m. Saturday.

The GSAT-5P is meant to retire the INSAT-2E satellite sent up in 1999 to ensure continuity of telecom, TV and weather services and was originally scheduled for Monday.

However, ISRO Sunday decided to postpone the launch of its geosynchronous satellite launch vehicle (GSLV) after it detected a leak in one of the valves of its Russian-made cryogenic engine.

The leak was detected during the pre-countdown tests, even as the 51-metre tall rocket was on the launch pad at Sriharikota, around 80 km from here.

ISRO officials had said some tests would be conducted Tuesday to gauge the extent of the valve leak. They said the tests and discussions with Russian scientists would go hand-in-hand at Sriharikota.

The Russians had supplied seven cryogenic engines, of which five were used in earlier GSLV launches.

Another ISRO official, speaking on condition of anonymity, told IANS that the tests took around 30 hours and involved filling of liquid oxygen to check the valve. The liquid oxygen had to be later drained. The rocket's ground systems had to be reconfigured for the tests.

The cryogenic engine is fired by liquid hydrogen as fuel and liquid oxygen as oxidizer.

According to the official, the valve leak was in the liquid oxygen system while all other valves were functioning well.

He said the tests started Tuesday at 4 a.m. and concluded at around 8 a.m. Wednesday.

'The activities undertaken were similar to the ones carried out for a regular rocket launch. Around 100 scientists and technologists were involved in tests,' he said.
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December, 2010 Launch
Post by: input~2 on 12/22/2010 09:17 pm
Drop zones described in a NOTAM:
Danger zone-3 = 1st stage
Danger zone-4  = Fairing
Danger zone-5 = 2nd stage
3. DNG ZONE-3 IS A RECTANGULAR AREA BOUNDED BY
     1130N     1130N       1300N     1300N
     08500E    08645E     08645E    08500E
4. DNG ZONE-4 IS A RECTANGULAR AREA BOUNDED BY
     1030N      1030N      1200N      1200N
     08815E    09000E     09000E     08815E
5. DNG ZONE-5 IS A RECTANGULAR AREA BOUNDED BY
     0815N      0815N       0945N      0945N
     09445E     09530E      09530E    09445E
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December, 2010 Launch
Post by: seshagirib on 12/23/2010 09:41 am
Official confirmation for launch time: 25th Dec 2010, 16:01 hours IST.

http://isro.org/news/pdf/GSLV-F06Reschedule.pdf
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 20, 2010 Launch
Post by: kanaka on 12/24/2010 04:25 am
How reliable are Russian Cryos? Is there any fault in manifacturing of cryos itself or our scientists don't have know how about it? This is not for first time ISRO has faced using Russian Cryo in GSLV. I think India should postpone GSLV trials unless its own CRYO gets ready (which should have been done by now.)
How reliable are Indian LV? Are You remember leaks on the second stages PSLV-C15 and GSLV Mk III?

PSLV has proved its metal by launching 10 sats at a time. Most GSLVs were powered by Russian Cryos previously. Success rate of PSLV is considerably good when compared to GSLV. India should try its own CRYO on its PLSV first
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December, 2010 Launch
Post by: Salo on 12/24/2010 07:36 am
Were there failures russian cryo engine?
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December, 2010 Launch
Post by: Salo on 12/24/2010 07:40 am
http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/article974181.ece
Quote
Countdown starts for GSAT-5P launch

The count down has started for the launch of India’s latest communication satellite GSAT-5P on board GSLV-F06 launch vehicle from Sriharikota on Saturday.

ISRO spokesperson S Satish told PTI that the 30-hour count down started at 10.04 hours this morning and was progressing well.

The launch of the satellite, which was originally scheduled for December 20, had been postponed after a leak in the Russian cryogenic engine on board the launch vehicle.

GSAT-5P with 24 C-band transponders and 12 extended C-band transponders is meant for augmenting communication services currently provided by Indian National Satellite System (INSAT). It is meant to boost TV, telemedicine and tele-education, and telephone services.

The satellite, developed by ISRO Satellite Centre, Bangalore, is the fifth in the GSAT series. It has a designed mission life of 12 years.
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December, 2010 Launch
Post by: input~2 on 12/24/2010 09:35 am
http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/article974181.ece (http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/article974181.ece)
Quote
Countdown starts for GSAT-5P launch

The count down has started for the launch of India’s latest communication satellite GSAT-5P on board GSLV-F06 launch vehicle from Sriharikota on Saturday.

ISRO spokesperson S Satish told PTI that the 30-hour count down started at 10.04 hours this morning and was progressing well.
So lift-off should occur tomorrow at 1034UTC if all goes well.
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: Satori on 12/24/2010 11:14 am
Webcasts available?
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: input~2 on 12/24/2010 12:46 pm
Webcasts available?
Not exactly webcasts, but satellite broadcast information from this forum:
http://www.saveondish.com/forum/updated-insat-2e-replacement-launched-on-25th-december-t-32490.html
Quote
Usually ISRO starts a channel on Edust/Insat-4CR/insta-4b which shows  the whole launch in real time, I remember watching those earlier  launches from Edusat, Everything from the "breaking of coconut" ceremony  is broadcast live, Cant say which satellite it will come this time
and from a recent post to-day on the same site:
Quote
ISRO has started live relay channel on INSAT-4CR, TP 11656 V 3333,
 Test going on now, The whole launch can be seen as usual, Now running  some launch films from  Ariane
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: input~2 on 12/24/2010 01:16 pm
Quote
ISRO has started live relay channel on INSAT-4CR, TP 11656 V 3333
BTW this confirms that INSAT-4CR is active (USSTRATCOM has been apparently tracking the wrong object since end November when it has started reporting it as deorbited :-[ ...)
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: input~2 on 12/24/2010 02:06 pm
Curiously, INSAT-2E (which GSAT-5P is supposed to replace) has also been  reported by USSTRATCOM as deorbited since late October; however it  seems apparently active with recent new TV channel testing
(check  out for example  http://www.indiandth.in/Thread-MEGA-MUSIQ-Testing-from-Insat-2E (http://www.indiandth.in/Thread-MEGA-MUSIQ-Testing-from-Insat-2E)
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: Chris Bergin on 12/24/2010 07:40 pm
Anyone got a GMT T-0?
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: input~2 on 12/24/2010 08:39 pm
Anyone got a GMT T-0?
If you mean GMT launch time, up to now this is 1034UTC Dec 25
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: seshagirib on 12/25/2010 03:56 am
^In case the launch time moves up

GMT = IST - 5:30
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: lnb15k on 12/25/2010 04:14 am
Webcasts available?
Not exactly webcasts, but satellite broadcast information from this forum:
http://www.saveondish.com/forum/updated-insat-2e-replacement-launched-on-25th-december-t-32490.html
Quote
Usually ISRO starts a channel on Edust/Insat-4CR/insta-4b which shows  the whole launch in real time, I remember watching those earlier  launches from Edusat, Everything from the "breaking of coconut" ceremony  is broadcast live, Cant say which satellite it will come this time
and from a recent post to-day on the same site:
Quote
ISRO has started live relay channel on INSAT-4CR, TP 11656 V 3333,
 Test going on now, The whole launch can be seen as usual, Now running  some launch films from  Ariane


 Those Ariane videos comes lot of times. Just now GSLV feed came active. There is also another frequency 11589H4000 credits to Javed for telling me about this frequency. Now this frequency shows blank screen and the same picture started coming to 11656 V 3333.
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: lnb15k on 12/25/2010 04:15 am
Quote
ISRO has started live relay channel on INSAT-4CR, TP 11656 V 3333
BTW this confirms that INSAT-4CR is active (USSTRATCOM has been apparently tracking the wrong object since end November when it has started reporting it as deorbited :-[ ...)

Airtel DTH is coming on that satellite ever since the satellite was launched. So till now it has not been deorbited.
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: input~2 on 12/25/2010 06:31 am
There is also another frequency 11589H4000 credits to Javed for telling me about this frequency. Now this frequency shows blank screen and the same picture started coming to 11656 V 3333.
Thanks in advance, lnb15k, for reporting live about the launch from what you are watching! :)
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: Salo on 12/25/2010 07:34 am
http://www.samachartoday.com/count-down-for-scheduled-launch-of-gslv-f-06-begins-this-evening/14287
Quote
The countdown for the launch of GSLV-F06 from Sriharikota this evening is proceeding smoothly. The lift off is scheduled for 4.04 pm.ISRO spokesman Mr Satish told our Chennai correspondent the countdown activities are proceeding without any hitch.
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: seshagirib on 12/25/2010 08:38 am
closer to launch, we can hope to see some coverage on:

NDTV:            http://www.ndtv.com/video/live/channel/ndtv24x7
CNN-IBN :       http://ibnlive.in.com/livetv/
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: seshagirib on 12/25/2010 08:43 am


+ Times of india: http://www.timesnow.tv/
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: Chris Bergin on 12/25/2010 09:18 am
Thanks Seshagirib! NDTV look like they are covering it.
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: William Graham on 12/25/2010 09:19 am
Thanks Seshagirib! NDTV look like they are covering it.

They're showing a documentary about Soyuz at the moment, followed by news, which is probably a good sign.
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: Chris Bergin on 12/25/2010 09:22 am
Farmer making good use of some hardware :)
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: Salo on 12/25/2010 09:23 am
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/news-by-industry/et-cetera/countdown-for-gsat-satellite-launch-begins/articleshow/7161823.cms
Quote
25 Dec, 2010, 12.53PM IST,IANS
Countdown for GSAT satellite launch begins

CHENNAI: Advanced communication satellite GSAT-5P - which will ensure continuity of telecom, television and weather services after an earlier satellite is retired - is set to be launched on Saturday evening at the Sriharikota rocket launch centre in Tamil Nadu .

Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: Satori on 12/25/2010 09:34 am
LAUNCH!!!
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: Satori on 12/25/2010 09:36 am
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: johnxx9 on 12/25/2010 09:37 am
Failure! The vehicle just exploded when it was at an altitude of about 13 km.......
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: input~2 on 12/25/2010 09:37 am
Title: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: William Graham on 12/25/2010 09:38 am
Confirmed, vehicle has exploded.
Clock stopped at T+219.8 seconds.
Title: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: William Graham on 12/25/2010 09:41 am
Vehicle was "losing its momentum" and sounds like there were control problems at arount T+3 minutes. Explosion sounds like an RSO destruct.
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: johnxx9 on 12/25/2010 09:41 am
I think it was the upperstage propellant tank that exploded.....
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: input~2 on 12/25/2010 09:48 am
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: Satori on 12/25/2010 09:50 am
NDTV says there was a technical failure on the first stage...
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: input~2 on 12/25/2010 09:51 am
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: Satori on 12/25/2010 09:52 am
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: Satori on 12/25/2010 09:53 am
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: Satori on 12/25/2010 09:54 am
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: input~2 on 12/25/2010 09:55 am
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: Satori on 12/25/2010 09:55 am
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: Satori on 12/25/2010 09:56 am
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: johnxx9 on 12/25/2010 09:56 am
NDTV says there was a technical failure on the first stage...

If true, it would be the first time the S138 had failed on GSLV...All of it's previous failures were to due to upper-stage failures (expect one where L40 nozzle performance caused failure). I would be surprised if it was really the first stage for ISRO has had a wonderful record in solids for many years.



Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: input~2 on 12/25/2010 09:57 am
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: Satori on 12/25/2010 09:58 am
I supose that this will not afect PSLV, but for GSLV is not a very good... second failure in a row...
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: Satori on 12/25/2010 09:59 am
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: Satori on 12/25/2010 10:00 am
I think it was the upperstage propellant tank that exploded.....

Why do you think it was the third stage?
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: johnxx9 on 12/25/2010 10:00 am
I supose that this will not afect PSLV, but for GSLV is not a very good... second failure in a row...

PSLV-C16 is ready and awaiting payload integration....
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: isro-watch on 12/25/2010 10:01 am
NDTV says there was a technical failure on the first stage...

If true, it would be the first time the S138 had failed on GSLV...All of it's previous failures were to due to upper-stage failures (expect one where L40 nozzle performance caused failure). I would be surprised if it was really the first stage for ISRO has had a wonderful record in solids for many years.







John,

As per what it seemed  on television...it definitely was not a fault with the first stage... around T+3 min...the was a disintegration at the third stage...I can count two disintegrations and both were from upper stages and not first stage
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: isro-watch on 12/25/2010 10:03 am
I think it was the upperstage propellant tank that exploded.....

Why do you think it was the third stage?

The announcement on television said that I stage was working fine.
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: input~2 on 12/25/2010 10:04 am
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: Satori on 12/25/2010 10:05 am
Isn't that condensation we see on the third stage?
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: johnxx9 on 12/25/2010 10:07 am
I think it was the upperstage propellant tank that exploded.....

Why do you think it was the third stage?

The announcement on television said that I stage was working fine.

Yes. There was confirmation at around T+15 sec that both 1st stage and LSBs were performing nominally...
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: ugordan on 12/25/2010 10:08 am
The announcement on television said that I stage was working fine.

That's not saying much, things can go bad within a second.
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: William Graham on 12/25/2010 10:09 am
I think it was the upperstage propellant tank that exploded.....

Why do you think it was the third stage?

The announcement on television said that I stage was working fine.

Yes. There was confirmation at around T+15 sec that both 1st stage and LSBs were performing nominally...

From their indications at that time. It is quite possible that something could have gone wrong after that, or at that time without becoming noticeable on their monitoring systems.
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: Chris Bergin on 12/25/2010 10:10 am
Ironic that I had to call an Indian call center to get my connection back up when this happened.

What's that now, three failures out of their last four?
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: input~2 on 12/25/2010 10:10 am
Confirmation of failure in the first stage (source ISRO)
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: Satori on 12/25/2010 10:10 am
At what flight time does occur the explosion?
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: William Graham on 12/25/2010 10:11 am
Ironic that I had to call an Indian call center to get my connection back up when this happened.

What's that now, three failures out of their last four?
Three outright failures and one partial failure.

INSAT-4C failed to orbit
INSAT-4CR was placed into a lower orbit than planned
GSAT-4 failed to orbit
GSAT-5P failed to orbit

Four failures, one partial failure and two successes from seven flights.
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: Satori on 12/25/2010 10:14 am
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: ugordan on 12/25/2010 10:14 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVsozDy0XG0

WARNING: turn down the volume!

The vehicle obviously lost control and aerodynamic breakup took over. The payload fairing and upper stage are always the first to go.
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: Satori on 12/25/2010 10:17 am
The images show the breakup of the payload fairing due to aerodynamic forces right after the vehicle veers out of course...
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: Satori on 12/25/2010 10:20 am
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: ugordan on 12/25/2010 10:20 am
At what flight time does occur the explosion?
I think I heard around T0+80s

Judging by tracking data from the above video, the vehicle was already lost prior to T+60s. Seems to match from what can be seen in the camera - the vehicle wasn't that high at the time. Looked like before max-Q as well.
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: SolSystem on 12/25/2010 10:25 am
Here's my story with the video.

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewnews.html?id=1487 (http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewnews.html?id=1487)
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: Satori on 12/25/2010 10:25 am
Bad journalist on NDTV is saying that the "first stage rockets come from Russia"...
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: input~2 on 12/25/2010 10:26 am
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: johnxx9 on 12/25/2010 10:26 am
Man-rating this vehicle will have a lot of opponents given the "not-very-impressive" success rate. 
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: Satori on 12/25/2010 10:33 am
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: input~2 on 12/25/2010 10:38 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd8_0UDdpHc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd8_0UDdpHc)
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: input~2 on 12/25/2010 10:41 am
According to the video, failure a few seconds before T0+60s!
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Salo on 12/25/2010 10:43 am
http://www.ndtv.com/video/live/channel/ndtv24x7
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Salo on 12/25/2010 10:48 am
May be ultraboundary angle of attack?
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: ugordan on 12/25/2010 10:54 am
A strap-on booster is ejected right after the explosion:

"Explosion" is a harsh word. This was clearly aerodynamic breakup, not a catastrophic propulsion failure.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: isro-watch on 12/25/2010 10:55 am
See the images above...especially the second image...I see a disintegration there
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: MikeMi. on 12/25/2010 10:57 am
Conference in 3 minutes. Can someone confirm?
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: isro-watch on 12/25/2010 10:59 am
Is it possible to recover the satellite...? considering that the speed was not much at this failure and failring would not have come out...;-)
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: ugordan on 12/25/2010 11:02 am
Is it possible to recover the satellite...? considering that the speed was not much at this failure

Let's put it this way - the breakup happened around the time of greatest aerodynamic forces. They were enough to rip the upper stage and fairing and then the whole vehicle apart.

They can recover the satellite... pieces. Satellite pieces.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Satori on 12/25/2010 11:03 am
Is it possible to recover the satellite...? considering that the speed was not much at this failure and failring would not have come out...;-)

No...
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: wbhh on 12/25/2010 11:07 am
Is it possible to recover the satellite...? considering that the speed was not much at this failure and failring would not have come out...;-)
Impossible, from 5000 meters droping to sea almost equal droping to cement ground.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Satori on 12/25/2010 11:16 am
This being a problem on the solid propulsion system can mean problems for the PSLV...
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: johnxx9 on 12/25/2010 11:22 am
This being a problem on the solid propulsion system can mean problems for the PSLV...

IIRC, the S139 stage has never failed before.

Maybe under-performance by one of the LSBs could have caused the vehicle to veer off trajectory resulting in AoA going out of bounds leading to the break-up of the vehicle ??
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: ugordan on 12/25/2010 11:24 am
This being a problem on the solid propulsion system can mean problems for the PSLV...

Is this speculation or official word that the core is to blame?
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: isro-watch on 12/25/2010 11:26 am
This being a problem on the solid propulsion system can mean problems for the PSLV...

IIRC, the S139 stage has never failed before.

Maybe under-performance by one of the LSBs could have caused the vehicle to veer off trajectory resulting in AoA going out of bounds leading to the break-up of the vehicle ??

The vehicle didn't look to have veered off trajectory before the break-up
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: johnxx9 on 12/25/2010 11:26 am
This being a problem on the solid propulsion system can mean problems for the PSLV...

Is this speculation or official word that the core is to blame?

No official word on this yet.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: ugordan on 12/25/2010 11:28 am
The vehicle didn't look to have veered off trajectory before the break-up

It most certainly started to pitch "up" at about T+52 seconds as seen in video, followed by breakup about 2 seconds later.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Satori on 12/25/2010 11:30 am
This being a problem on the solid propulsion system can mean problems for the PSLV...

Is this speculation or official word that the core is to blame?

I'm not talking about the core. I'm talking about the solid propulsion system in general. ISRO was so worried about the third stage that the problems stroke where ISRO had 100% success. I think that now ISRO will look very carefully to the solid propulsion system of the PSLV on FLP and this can mean a delay for the next launch.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: ugordan on 12/25/2010 11:31 am
Maybe under-performance by one of the LSBs could have caused the vehicle to veer off trajectory resulting in AoA going out of bounds leading to the break-up of the vehicle ??

Not necessarily. You can usually put money on electrical shorts causing gimbal hard-overs as cause for these unexplained vehicle maneuvers, there's been more than enough such occasions historically. In fact, that's what I'd bet on at this moment.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Salo on 12/25/2010 11:51 am
http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/article979187.ece
(http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/00316/GSLV1_316531g.jpg)
(http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/00316/GSLV3_316533g.jpg)
(http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/00316/GSLV7_316535g.jpg)
(http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/00316/GSLV8_316536g.jpg)
(http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/00316/GSLV9_316537g.jpg)
(http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/00316/GSLV5_316534g.jpg)
(http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/00316/GSLV2_316532g.jpg)
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Salo on 12/25/2010 12:00 pm
This being a problem on the solid propulsion system can mean problems for the PSLV...

IIRC, the S139 stage has never failed before.

Maybe under-performance by one of the LSBs could have caused the vehicle to veer off trajectory resulting in AoA going out of bounds leading to the break-up of the vehicle ??
The S139 stage has been working till the end.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: johnxx9 on 12/25/2010 12:05 pm
Extract from ISRO press conference......
Quote
ISRO confirms Altitude Error in Press Conference , Large Altitude error developed.

Control Command Signal from onboard computer failed to reach first stage after 47 second

Self Destruct command issued.

ISRO chairman noted what caused this control command failure needs further analysis.

Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: input~2 on 12/25/2010 12:37 pm
I just heard Mr. Radhakrishnan in his conference saying that everything was nominal up to 50s, then [...] higher envelope angle than nominal...leading to high structural loads that led to the destruction ..
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: lnb15k on 12/25/2010 01:00 pm
This was the final picture showing the telemetry. RAN 2.7kms means what? It is 2.7kms from the launch pad? It was the first stage fell there?
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: tonthomas on 12/25/2010 01:02 pm
The flight computer lost communication with the actuators in the liquid fueled strap ons, and the vehicle left its planned path, I unterstood.

Sad day for ISRO.

Thomas
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: ugordan on 12/25/2010 01:03 pm
RAN 2.7kms means what? It is 2.7kms from the launch pad? It was the first stage fell there?

Probably short for range i.e. downrange distance from the pad.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: ugordan on 12/25/2010 01:07 pm
The flight computer lost communication with the actuators in the liquid fueled strap ons, and the vehicle left its planned path, I unterstood.

Sad day for ISRO.

In some respects this was similar to South Korea's KSLV back-to-back failures. First a problem with the subsequent stage with a good first stage and then on the very next launch a disaster even earlier in the flight.

Must be really demoralizing for the engineers in both cases - feels like you're not making progress but actually regressing.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Salo on 12/25/2010 01:18 pm
The Associated Press (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5heFtD_kSgHltGc_ODkrecWi8NDeQ?docId=00adb319487a44538b7ee709fd8c199e)
Quote
The vehicle developed an error 47 seconds after liftoff and lost command, leading to a higher angle in the flight, said K. Radhakrishnan, chairman of the Indian Space Research Organization.

"That caused a higher stress, breaking up the vehicle," Radhakrishnan told reporters.
:(
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: input~2 on 12/25/2010 01:59 pm
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Rocket-failed-after-45-seconds-says-ISRO/Article1-642792.aspx (http://www.hindustantimes.com/Rocket-failed-after-45-seconds-says-ISRO/Article1-642792.aspx)

Quote
The  rocket carrying an Indian communication satellite launched from (Sriharikota] on   Saturday began failing after some 45 seconds, the Indian Space Research   Organisation (ISRO) said. “The controllability was lost after 45  seconds after the lift-off. The  control commands to the four strap on  motors of the first stage did not reach,” ISRO chairman K Radhakrishnan  told reporters. He said the first stage performed well till 50 seconds,  and after  that the rocket started failing.

According to him, the  destruct command was issued 63 seconds after the  lift off by the Range  Safety Officer

So there was a first internal break-up at around T0+50s followed by an explosion triggered by a self destruct command at T0+63s
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: jcm on 12/25/2010 02:00 pm
So we have the guidance failure at 47 seconds and around 10 km altitude? And breakup a few seconds later at 51 s (estimated from video) at a similar altitude? Destruct signal at 63s but by then the rocket had already broken up.
The screenshot at 61s shows altitude 12 km and velocity 0.453 km/s
 but whether that is true realtime data or the planned trajectory is unclear.It looks like it might be real data as the altitude reaches a max of 14.9 km at 77.8 s and 6 km range and then starts to fall.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: jcm on 12/25/2010 02:03 pm
The original GSLV Mk I's third stage was designated 12KRB by Khrunichev.
Does the new 15-tonne version have a different designation? 15KRB maybe :-)?
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: ugordan on 12/25/2010 02:08 pm
So we have the guidance failure at 47 seconds and around 10 km altitude?

Guidance and control are linked systems, but this is not what I'd call a guidance failure. First Ariane V and one Titan IV launch were guidance system failures - erroneous data fed to the control system. The official report here is the guidance performed as expected, but the proper gimbal commands never reached the engines for whatever reason.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: lnb15k on 12/25/2010 02:17 pm
RAN 2.7kms means what? It is 2.7kms from the launch pad? It was the first stage fell there?

Probably short for range i.e. downrange distance from the pad.

Thanks, that means it finally went to ground around at 2.7kms from the launch pad. But that for which stage :huh: Who knows satellite may be in the sea bottom in full.

After the breakup three dots were blinking. Except one others stopped blinking after sometime and went missing in atmosphere.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: isro-watch on 12/25/2010 03:00 pm
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Rocket-failed-after-45-seconds-says-ISRO/Article1-642792.aspx (http://www.hindustantimes.com/Rocket-failed-after-45-seconds-says-ISRO/Article1-642792.aspx)

Quote
The  rocket carrying an Indian communication satellite launched from (Sriharikota] on   Saturday began failing after some 45 seconds, the Indian Space Research   Organisation (ISRO) said. “The controllability was lost after 45  seconds after the lift-off. The  control commands to the four strap on  motors of the first stage did not reach,” ISRO chairman K Radhakrishnan  told reporters. He said the first stage performed well till 50 seconds,  and after  that the rocket started failing.

According to him, the  destruct command was issued 63 seconds after the  lift off by the Range  Safety Officer

So there was a first internal break-up at around T0+50s followed by an explosion triggered by a self destruct command at T0+63s


Yes, watching the flight video also gives credence to this....There was a breakup(at the cryo stage) and then authorized destruction
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: isro-watch on 12/25/2010 03:02 pm
RAN 2.7kms means what? It is 2.7kms from the launch pad? It was the first stage fell there?

Probably short for range i.e. downrange distance from the pad.

Thanks, that means it finally went to ground around at 2.7kms from the launch pad. But that for which stage :huh: Who knows satellite may be in the sea bottom in full.

After the breakup three dots were blinking. Except one others stopped blinking after sometime and went missing in atmosphere.

This is exactly the reason I believe that they can recover the satellite...probably I am going too far...  ??? :(
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Art LeBrun on 12/25/2010 03:07 pm
Satellites are relatively fragile structures. Once exposed to a high flow airstream it will  break up. Not to mention the impact..........
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: jcm on 12/25/2010 03:23 pm
So we have the guidance failure at 47 seconds and around 10 km altitude?

Guidance and control are linked systems, but this is not what I'd call a guidance failure. First Ariane V and one Titan IV launch were guidance system failures - erroneous data fed to the control system. The official report here is the guidance performed as expected, but the proper gimbal commands never reached the engines for whatever reason.

OK - so the sound bite version to use is "control failure"?
Or, possibly, interface failure, if the guidance sent the info but the control systems never got it...

Are other folks experiencing extremely slow response from the site today, or is it just me? Got better for a while but now has seized up again.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: William Graham on 12/25/2010 03:25 pm
RAN 2.7kms means what? It is 2.7kms from the launch pad? It was the first stage fell there?

Probably short for range i.e. downrange distance from the pad.

Thanks, that means it finally went to ground around at 2.7kms from the launch pad. But that for which stage :huh: Who knows satellite may be in the sea bottom in full.

After the breakup three dots were blinking. Except one others stopped blinking after sometime and went missing in atmosphere.

This is exactly the reason I believe that they can recover the satellite...probably I am going too far...  ??? :(

In the extremely unlikely event that it survived the disintegration, it would have fallen 15 kilometres, which, neglecting air resistance, would give it an impact velocity of about 542 metres per second.

There won't be much to recover.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: John Santos on 12/25/2010 03:26 pm
RAN 2.7kms means what? It is 2.7kms from the launch pad? It was the first stage fell there?

Probably short for range i.e. downrange distance from the pad.

Thanks, that means it finally went to ground around at 2.7kms from the launch pad. But that for which stage :huh: Who knows satellite may be in the sea bottom in full.

After the breakup three dots were blinking. Except one others stopped blinking after sometime and went missing in atmosphere.
No, it means it was 2.7km downrange from the pad at that time.  It is *not* the expected impact point, which depends on the velocity at the time thrust was cut off and the aerodynamics.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Art LeBrun on 12/25/2010 03:43 pm
It appears one of the strap ons broke apart spilling propellants during the initial loss of attitude control............
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: input~2 on 12/25/2010 03:57 pm
Quote
There was no design fault in the rocket. We  suspect the four connectors to the strap-on motors got snapped,'  Radhakrishnan said.
http://www.sify.com/news/indian-rocket-explodes-seconds-after-launch-intro-night-lead-news-national-kmzvagabccd.html
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: ugordan on 12/25/2010 04:00 pm
Quote
There was no design fault in the rocket. We  suspect the four connectors to the strap-on motors got snapped,'  Radhakrishnan said.
http://www.sify.com/news/indian-rocket-explodes-seconds-after-launch-intro-night-lead-news-national-kmzvagabccd.html

That's a contradictory statement if I ever saw one. Is he saying the connectors are designed to snap off less than a minute into first stage flight?
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Art LeBrun on 12/25/2010 04:08 pm
Perhaps connectors were incorrectly attached to the intended strap on....

1 to 3  2 to 4........... several instances of such in early US space launches.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: adithyau on 12/25/2010 04:10 pm
Today i was watching live ISRO launch of GSLV carrying GSAT-5P and i was really sad to see it getting wasted like that.

We are way way behind any space technology.
Today's failure was very tragic since it blew up in first stage itself.

First stage is reliable proven stage and is similar to PSLV which has a good track record.The technology that Russia, US had decades ago, we are still not able to even match that.

We still dont have our own indigenous Cryogenic Upper Stage engine;we still rely upon Russia (By the way still 1 engine of Russia is left with us and after that we need to import more )

GSLV development started during 1990's

PSLV cannot be used to launch communication satellite and heavy satellites in geo synchronous orbits
They are normally used to launch remote sensing and polar,sun synchronous satellites which i must say we have plenty and dont need any more. (However chandrayana was launched in a modified version of PSLV)

I think its time for ISRO to introduce drastic changes.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: adithyau on 12/25/2010 04:14 pm
Did anyone noticed the moment of lift off ?
It was somewhat different when compared to other GSLV launches i think
It went too fast i believe while clearing the tower and it *might* have damaged launch tower ;
I am not sure about this though.

And the fumes of the rocket was also different
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: isro-watch on 12/25/2010 04:23 pm
It appears one of the strap ons broke apart spilling propellants during the initial loss of attitude control............

It was the second or third stage which broke first...followed by the evnt you described

The attachments are between T+50 seconds(as per voice in the video just before incident) and T+65 seconds(when the destruct command was given)
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: isro-watch on 12/25/2010 04:30 pm
This is the scene of self destruct command
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Danderman on 12/25/2010 04:50 pm
With such a low flight rate early in the program, its not unexpected to have a relatively high failure rate for this launcher.  Among other things, the bugs have not been worked out of the design, and the crew are not used to the launch procedures.

Give it 25+ launches, and we will know if its a good design.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: seshagirib on 12/25/2010 05:06 pm
What is the procedure for mitigating risk when the configuration of the vehicle is changed? - simulation? -wind tunnel tesing? - anyother techniques?

I ask, because this vehicle is reported to be heavier, and taller then the previous GSLV vehicles, also with a larger payload fairing.

Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: input~2 on 12/25/2010 05:09 pm
Quote
ISRO Chairman K. Radhakrisnan said at a press conference: “The controllability of the vehicle was lost after 47  seconds because we found that the command to control it did not reach  the actuator system in the first stage of the vehicle… We suspect that a  connector chord, which takes the signal down, has snapped.”   

Director of Vikram Sarabhai Space Centre in Thiruvanthapuram P.S.  Veeraraghavan explained that the command to control the vehicle from the  Equipment Bay, the electronic brain of the vehicle resident atop the  rocket, did not reach the actuators in the vehicle's first stage. “So it  was not basically a design problem but a problem of the connector  snapping.”
http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/article979052.ece (http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/article979052.ece)
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Antares on 12/25/2010 05:13 pm
So hypotheses I see talked about here are:

1) loss of command path between flight computer and TVC
2) loss of structural integrity on a strap-on, leading to asymmetric thrust - initial loss potentially due to turbopump letting go
3) loss of connection between core and strap-ons, structural or command

I'd like to see supporting or refuting evidence for these.  And, valid additional hypotheses from established NSF members.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: input~2 on 12/25/2010 05:24 pm
So hypotheses I see talked about here are:

1) loss of command path between flight computer and TVC
2) loss of structural integrity on a strap-on, leading to asymmetric thrust - initial loss potentially due to turbopump letting go
3) loss of connection between core and strap-ons, structural or command

I'd like to see supporting or refuting evidence for these.  And, valid additional hypotheses from established NSF members.
Where does your #2 come from?
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: FinalFrontier on 12/25/2010 05:24 pm
Quote
ISRO Chairman K. Radhakrisnan said at a press conference: “The controllability of the vehicle was lost after 47  seconds because we found that the command to control it did not reach  the actuator system in the first stage of the vehicle… We suspect that a  connector chord, which takes the signal down, has snapped.”   

Director of Vikram Sarabhai Space Centre in Thiruvanthapuram P.S.  Veeraraghavan explained that the command to control the vehicle from the  Equipment Bay, the electronic brain of the vehicle resident atop the  rocket, did not reach the actuators in the vehicle's first stage. “So it  was not basically a design problem but a problem of the connector  snapping.”
http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/article979052.ece (http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/article979052.ece)

Seems to me that that IS a design problem. I highly doubt a sensitive control cable is "designed to snap" prior to the intended time leading to a vehicle breakup. Also seems like the thing started breaking up on its own before an authorized destruct was issued, usually RSO destructs look cleaner than that.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: FinalFrontier on 12/25/2010 05:27 pm
Look we don't know much right now, my current thinking is a critical cable (as they said) broke either during or was broken before launch (and was not caught in that case) which led to the rocket going off course in a high stress part of the flight, leading to breakup. At some point they issued a destruct command but my thinking is it had already mostly destroyed itself by then.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: input~2 on 12/25/2010 05:29 pm
Also seems like the thing started breaking up on its own before an authorized destruct was issued, usually RSO destructs look cleaner than that.
Yes, this has been acknowledged by ISRO and is visible on the video
Title: Re: GSLV - GSAT-5P / December 25, 2010 Launch
Post by: FinalFrontier on 12/25/2010 05:29 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd8_0UDdpHc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd8_0UDdpHc)
In the video if you look closely at the frames right before the initial explosion, you can see the rocket veering upwards somewhat and then breakup begins. Seem to me to be an obvious guidance failure (probably resulting from that broken cable they mentioned). The failure happened at a high stress point in the flight so when the vehicle went off course (by veering upwards) it simply broke into pieces. Destruct command came later.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: FinalFrontier on 12/25/2010 05:30 pm
Also seems like the thing started breaking up on its own before an authorized destruct was issued, usually RSO destructs look cleaner than that.
Yes, this has been acknowledged by ISRO and is visible on the video
agreed sorry for redundant posts. Seems pretty obvious what happened here, ashame that it happened though. They just can't get away from these failures :\
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: FinalFrontier on 12/25/2010 05:32 pm
And no there is no chance of sat recovery (even if it had survived the breakup) because it appears in the video the payload is the first thing to disintegrate :|
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Antares on 12/25/2010 06:27 pm
So hypotheses I see talked about here are:

1) loss of command path between flight computer and TVC
2) loss of structural integrity on a strap-on, leading to asymmetric thrust - initial loss potentially due to turbopump letting go
3) loss of connection between core and strap-ons, structural or command

I'd like to see supporting or refuting evidence for these.  And, valid additional hypotheses from established NSF members.
Where does your #2 come from?

Reply #137. Speculation about turbopump contribution comes from discussions among colleagues this morning.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Antares on 12/25/2010 06:30 pm
FinalFrontier, the observed attitude error could have as easily been caused by loss of thrust in one of the strap-ons as from a control anomaly in the avionics.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: isro-watch on 12/25/2010 06:37 pm
Did anyone noticed the moment of lift off ?
It was somewhat different when compared to other GSLV launches i think
It went too fast i believe while clearing the tower and it *might* have damaged launch tower ;
I am not sure about this though.

And the fumes of the rocket was also different

I can confirm that there was NO damage to tower...

In what way are the fumes different  ;D
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Danderman on 12/25/2010 06:41 pm
Perhaps this is too obvious, but with the LH2 experiencing a leak prior to launch, I would not rule out the possibility of some drops of very cold liquid somehow contacting a control cable.

 :(
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: input~2 on 12/25/2010 06:45 pm
Quote
We will now review GSLV programmes: ISRO
and next PSLV launch delayed from January 20 to early February
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article979370.ece
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: input~2 on 12/25/2010 07:08 pm
So hypotheses I see talked about here are:

1) loss of command path between flight computer and TVC
2) loss of structural integrity on a strap-on, leading to asymmetric thrust - initial loss potentially due to turbopump letting go
3) loss of connection between core and strap-ons, structural or command

I'd like to see supporting or refuting evidence for these.  And, valid additional hypotheses from established NSF members.
Where does your #2 come from?

Reply #137. Speculation about turbopump contribution comes from discussions among colleagues this morning.
You mean Reply #138, but I don't think this view has been backed up.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: input~2 on 12/25/2010 07:31 pm
Quote
Isro has lined up four launches next year, including PSLV 17
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Technical-glitch-after-liftoff-GSLVs-gone-in-63-seconds/articleshow/7164870.cms

These 4 could be: PSLV-C16, PSLV-C17, PSLV-C18 and the last GSLV-Mk1 with the 7th Russian cryogenic engine.
So apparently no GSLV-Mk2 in 2011...
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: satlaunch on 12/25/2010 09:47 pm
Probably some GEO payloads will be moved to another commercial providers. There were rumours stating talks for launch Insat 3D with Ariane 5.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: sanman on 12/25/2010 11:02 pm
Personally, I think that the GSLV-Mk2 should be abandoned, and that ISRO should simply move past this failure to the GSLV-Mk3, which is shorter and fatter.

(http://www.india365.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/gslv.jpg)

The fact that GSLV-Mk2 was lengthened and made a little top-heavier for this flight with a larger faring (ie. to accommodate higher payload), makes these things look like they would have all contributed to the added stresses that could have tipped things past the failure point during that period of maximum aerodynamic stress.

I think shorter and fatter is okay for a rocket, since it's punching out of the atmosphere sooner rather than later. If you're making a hypersonic aircraft, let that be long and skinny, for prolonged atmospheric flight path.

I think ISRO should try to regain the initiative and move to directly flight test the GSLV-Mk3, albeit with a dummy payload rather than an expensive telecom satellite.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: William Graham on 12/25/2010 11:07 pm
The fact that GSLV-Mk2 was lengthened and made a little top-heavier for this flight
This was a Mk.I
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: sanman on 12/25/2010 11:14 pm
This was a Mk.I

Alright, but the same difference applies. The GSLV-Mk3 is shorter and wider compared to this thing, and thus less likely to suffer from the same scenario. The fact that this rocket was lengthened and made to carry a heavier payload with a wider faring at the top would make it more unstable aerodynamically. I think that ISRO simply failed to gauge just how more unstable it would be.

Snapping of bolts and/or control cables - these all sound like things that could happen under excessive aerodynamic stress/vibration/shock.

Better to go with a design that lends itself towards more reliability. Shorter and fatter seems okay for something that's leaving the atmosphere soon anyway. Longer, thinner and more top-heavy seems inherently more problematic.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: tu8ca on 12/25/2010 11:35 pm
Better to go with a design that lends itself towards more reliability. Shorter and fatter seems okay for something that's leaving the atmosphere soon anyway. Longer, thinner and more top-heavy seems inherently more problematic.

"Longer, thinner and more top-heavy" is actually more stable, since its COG is further ahead of its COP. Probably less stiff though.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Lars_J on 12/25/2010 11:55 pm
I'm curious - the configuration of this LV seems pretty unique (liquid boosters for a solid core) - or is this not so rare?
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Skyrocket on 12/26/2010 12:13 am
I'm curious - the configuration of this LV seems pretty unique (liquid boosters for a solid core) - or is this not so rare?

In fact, it is rare: GSLV Mk.1 and Mk.2 are the only launch vehicles to use a solid core with liquid boosters.

Even more strange, the boosters have a longer burn time than the core. Suboptimal, as the burned out core has to be carried further on and can not be jettisoned before the liquid boosters have burned out too.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: kanaka on 12/26/2010 12:23 am
Pals!!! Please let ISRO breath. I think ISRO was over ambitious in projecting themselves or rather say in their hurried show-put up with out bothering about their basic ground work which is very week. The basic ground work and rehearser should be made perfect (which was some what missing)  before projection. Analysis of cause of failure should be done from the root in all aspects. Appropriate regress ground testing should be done with all parameters (including those that effect in flight) should have been done. I suggest ISRO should concentrate on Indigenous Cryogenic Engine and test it on PSLV first.  :-[ >:(
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: sanman on 12/26/2010 12:29 am

In fact, it is rare: GSLV Mk.1 and Mk.2 are the only launch vehicles to use a solid core with liquid boosters.

Even more strange, the boosters have a longer burn time than the core. Suboptimal, as the burned out core has to be carried further on and can not be jettisoned before the liquid boosters have burned out too.

Gee, I wonder if the design could be modified to allow for jettison of the solid core while retaining the liquid boosters. Perhaps if there was a sheath around the solid core which it could slide out from when jettisoned?

Personally, I like the idea of the outer rockets being throttlable while the inner core has the greater main thrust due to solid fuel. That seems more steerable to me.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: sanman on 12/26/2010 12:42 am

"Longer, thinner and more top-heavy" is actually more stable, since its COG is further ahead of its COP. Probably less stiff though.

Hmm, this seems counter-intuitive to me. I would think that the longer a rocket is, the easier it is for torque forces to develop along that length to spin the rocket out of control.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendulum_rocket_fallacy

I know about the "Pendulum Fallacy" but even if having more mass fartehr forward is better, still I'd think that the larger faring size (surface area) would catch more aerodynamic forces to tip the rocket into a bad orientation.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: tu8ca on 12/26/2010 01:48 am
Hmm, this seems counter-intuitive to me. I would think that the longer a rocket is, the easier it is for torque forces to develop along that length to spin the rocket out of control.

Interestingly, the boosters have fins. Not many modern rockets do.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: gospacex on 12/26/2010 02:12 am
Gee, I wonder if the design could be modified to allow for jettison of the solid core while retaining the liquid boosters. Perhaps if there was a sheath around the solid core which it could slide out from when jettisoned?

More mass and more failure modes. That would be a Frankenrocket, really.

Quote
Personally, I like the idea of the outer rockets being throttlable while the inner core has the greater main thrust due to solid fuel. That seems more steerable to me.

Booster steering is not achieved by differential thrust of main engines (this method would be too slow) - instead, engines are gimballed, or small vernier engines are used to steer (Soyuz).
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: sanman on 12/26/2010 02:44 am
More mass and more failure modes. That would be a Frankenrocket, really.

Maybe if the composition of the solid fuel was changed to allow for longer burn?

Quote
Booster steering is not achieved by differential thrust of main engines (this method would be too slow) - instead, engines are gimballed, or small vernier engines are used to steer (Soyuz).

So then you'd benefit from having your engines farther away from the centerline axis to make it easier for them to apply corrective torque, whether it's due to differential thrust, gimbaling, etc. The wider design of the GSLV-Mk3 allows for this.





Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: sanman on 12/26/2010 02:50 am
Ares-1 was a solid booster design - how do they gimbal their thrust?
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: gospacex on 12/26/2010 02:54 am
Ares-1 was a solid booster design - how do they gimbal their thrust?

In both axes :D
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Jim on 12/26/2010 03:04 am

"Longer, thinner and more top-heavy" is actually more stable, since its COG is further ahead of its COP. Probably less stiff though.

Hmm, this seems counter-intuitive to me. I would think that the longer a rocket is, the easier it is for torque forces to develop along that length to spin the rocket out of control.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendulum_rocket_fallacy

I know about the "Pendulum Fallacy" but even if having more mass fartehr forward is better, still I'd think that the larger faring size (surface area) would catch more aerodynamic forces to tip the rocket into a bad orientation.

Most launch vehicles are statically unstable.  Most of the mass is in the lower stages
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: MarsInMyLifetime on 12/26/2010 03:39 am
Quote
Booster steering is not achieved by differential thrust of main engines (this method would be too slow) - instead, engines are gimballed, or small vernier engines are used to steer (Soyuz).

So then you'd benefit from having your engines farther away from the centerline axis to make it easier for them to apply corrective torque, whether it's due to differential thrust, gimbaling, etc. The wider design of the GSLV-Mk3 allows for this.

Greater torque for correction also implies greater torque for errors to propagate in the first place. If the control to the gimbals was indeed interrupted, that means that all errors were uncorrected and accumulating. Wider separation of the engines only magnifies the effect of imbalances (as in "give me a long enough lever and I shall move the world"). In short, if the brain isn't controlling the feet once out of the starting gate, this kind of race isn't going to end well.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: sanman on 12/26/2010 03:39 am
Ares-1 was a solid booster design - how do they gimbal their thrust?

In both axes :D

So it is possible to gimbal a solid booster then?

Gee, maybe one day someone will come up with a hybrid liquid-solid design for a launch vehicle. I've heard of colloidal rockets, but I'm not sure what their performance characteristics are. I'd assume more thrust than liquid, but less than that of pure solid.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: sanman on 12/26/2010 03:42 am
Greater torque for correction also implies greater torque for errors to propagate in the first place. If the control to the gimbals was indeed interrupted, that means that all errors were uncorrected and accumulating. Wider separation of the engines only magnifies the effect of imbalances (as in "give me a long enough lever and I shall move the world"). In short, if the brain isn't controlling the feet once out of the starting gate, this kind of race isn't going to end well.

Not necessarily - corrective torque is applied through the engines or thrusters, so a design can give them distance from COG/COM for corrective torque purposes. At the same time the design would try to minimize the development of torque forces farther away from COG/COM.
I don't see that opportunity for maximizing corrective torque has to automatically result in simultaneous increase in destabilizing torque, which would arise mainly due to aerodynamic factors.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: butters on 12/26/2010 03:53 am
So it is possible to gimbal a solid booster then?

Gee, maybe one day someone will come up with a hybrid liquid-solid design for a launch vehicle. I've heard of colloidal rockets, but I'm not sure what their performance characteristics are. I'd assume more thrust than liquid, but less than that of pure solid.

Most solid strap-on boosters are gimbaled, and so are solid-fueled missiles.

Virgin Galactic SpaceShipOne used a hybrid rocket burning solid HTPB rubber in liquid nitrous oxide. SpaceShipTwo will use a larger version of the same, and so would the SNC Dream Chaser spaceplane.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: sanman on 12/26/2010 04:43 am
Another comment I'd like to make is that I think the Indian govt should seek to have ISRO spin off its already successful proven workhorse PSLV to the private sector, preferably to at least 2 competing service providers.

That would allow ISRO to focus more purely on engineering and proving newer launch vehicles like the GSLV that would push the envelope.

Since PSLV is already proven in its reliability, it would be for private sector companies to then show they can provide the same level of reliability in their operations, while they gradually seek cost efficiencies. They could also gradually evolve the design in their own distinctive ways, according to market forces/demands.

As painful as today's setback is, I think that taken in the right perspective, it could also create political opportunities for a shift in how things are done.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: edkyle99 on 12/26/2010 03:53 pm
The fact that GSLV-Mk2 was lengthened and made a little top-heavier for this flight with a larger faring (ie. to accommodate higher payload), makes these things look like they would have all contributed to the added stresses that could have tipped things past the failure point during that period of maximum aerodynamic stress.

I think shorter and fatter is okay for a rocket, since it's punching out of the atmosphere sooner rather than later. If you're making a hypersonic aircraft, let that be long and skinny, for prolonged atmospheric flight path.

I think ISRO should try to regain the initiative and move to directly flight test the GSLV-Mk3, albeit with a dummy payload rather than an expensive telecom satellite.

I don't see a problem with the basic GSLV layout in terms of control authority.  GSLV clearly is a controllable configuration, based on its past successes.  During this flight, something appears to have happened to the control system itself.  Any rocket, even short-fat ones, would have turned and burned as a result.

I wonder if the real problem might be associated with the constant changes ISRO has made to GSLV.  I'm not sure any two have been identical.  Both that flew this year were different configurations.  It can't be easy to certify that many configurations at once.

Then there was that leak business.  It will be interesting to see if that had anything to do with the final result. 

 - Ed Kyle
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 12/26/2010 05:27 pm
First of all, is the GSLV Mk.I roughly equivalent to the Delta II class?  If so, this failure might lead to a small window of opportunity for Soyuz, SpaceX and OSC to establish themselves in this class and could prove disastrous for future orders for ISRO. Seems like there will be quite a bit of competition in this SLV category in the future, should be interesting to see how it plays out and with such competition things like this failure could have large market repercussions.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: input~2 on 12/26/2010 05:34 pm
Quote
Experts analysing the  voluminous data are of the view that a hardware problem or defect has  led to the snapping of the four connectors
from: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics/nation/hardware-defect-suspected-for-rocket-failure/articleshow/7169237.cms
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: edkyle99 on 12/26/2010 06:05 pm
Quote
Experts analysing the  voluminous data are of the view that a hardware problem or defect has  led to the snapping of the four connectors
from: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics/nation/hardware-defect-suspected-for-rocket-failure/articleshow/7169237.cms


I suspect the word "connectors" really means "conductors" or "connections", etc. 

 - Ed Kyle
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Jim on 12/26/2010 08:49 pm
Another comment I'd like to make is that I think the Indian govt should seek to have ISRO spin off its already successful proven workhorse PSLV to the private sector, preferably to at least 2 competing service providers.


That is not viable.  Not only can't the market support the production of the same vehicle by the different contractors, the differences in engineering by different orgs would cause issues.

Not knowing the Indian conops, but PSLV maybe produced by the private sector for  ISRO already.

Your posts seem to be of one who doesn't understand launch vehicles.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: sanman on 12/27/2010 01:15 am
Okay, well how about spinning off to a single private contractor then?
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Jim on 12/27/2010 01:30 am
Okay, well how about spinning off to a single private contractor then?

Arent private contractors already involved?
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: jcm on 12/27/2010 02:13 am
Okay, well how about spinning off to a single private contractor then?

Arent private contractors already involved?

Only at the subcontractor level, I think. except for the Russian stage. For the most part VSSC (ISRO's version of NASA-Marshall, also in the Deep South :-)) is the main contractor, stage integrator and launch vehicle integrator.  Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd in Bangalore does a lot of the structures but my impression is (please correct me if you know better) ISRO still holds most of the high level reins - in the US context, more like Ares I than Atlas V.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: butters on 12/27/2010 02:33 am
Quote
Experts analysing the  voluminous data are of the view that a hardware problem or defect has  led to the snapping of the four connectors
from: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics/nation/hardware-defect-suspected-for-rocket-failure/articleshow/7169237.cms


Four data lines snapped simultaneously? That sounds rather like a design flaw or at best a systemic flaw in the assembly process. If it were a manufacturing defect, then one would not expect all four lines to fail at once.

Is it possible that the loss of just one booster TVC system could have caused the pitch-up anomaly observed in the launch footage? I wonder what evidence they have to suggest that all four booster TVC systems were lost.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: seshagirib on 12/27/2010 03:29 am
^If loss of TVC command lines is true and is the root cause, this happened for the first time in seven flights. QC issues rather than design looks to be most likely.

Added Later: On second thoughts could be a design issue also if vibration or resonance modes not fully accounted for - more so in light of the newer launch vehicle configuration ( taller, heavier,larger payload fairing...)
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: input~2 on 12/27/2010 08:14 am


http://www.hindu.com/2010/12/27/stories/2010122756631000.htm

"There is disappointment among ISRO's rocket technologists that the  GSLV mission on December 25 failed because of “a very, very trivial  issue.” They said it failed because the signal from the equipment bay,  which houses the electronic brain of the vehicle and is housed atop the  rocket, to control the vehicle, did not reach the first stage. A bunch  of wires, running to more than 45 metres, convey these signals from the  equipment bay and the wires terminate in the three stages of the  vehicle. Since these wires are so long, they are connected by devices  called connectors, which are akin to plugs and sockets. It is these  connectors that hold these wires in place.
An authoritative ISRO rocket technologist said four such connectors  came loose or were prised open because of “some disturbance” in the  flight and so the wires, which convey the signal for controlling the  rocket, lost their continuity. “If some connectors open up, the wires  will not have continuity. It is a very, very trivial issue. So the  command for controlling the rocket from the equipment bay did not reach  the first stage. An uncontrolled rocket will fail. That is what  happened. We are in the investigation mode,” he said."
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: input~2 on 12/27/2010 09:48 am
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Heavier-payload-caused-Indian-rocket-s-failure-Expert/Article1-643393.aspx

Quote
Heavier payload caused Indian rocket's failure: Expert
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: ugordan on 12/27/2010 10:54 am
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Heavier-payload-caused-Indian-rocket-s-failure-Expert/Article1-643393.aspx

Quote
Heavier payload caused Indian rocket's failure: Expert

His story doesn't jibe with what was released earlier. If controlability was lost at T+47 seconds then it couldn't have possibly been the breakup that snapped the connectors, i.e. his attempt to switch cause and effect isn't supported by fact.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: racshot65 on 12/27/2010 01:14 pm
Is it pretty standard to use 'connectors' on such critical wires rather than solder them ?

Seems like it would be better to solder them so you dont have to worry about a connector failing ?

Or am I missing something ?
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: jimvela on 12/27/2010 01:29 pm
Is it pretty standard to use 'connectors' on such critical wires rather than solder them ?

Seems like it would be better to solder them so you dont have to worry about a connector failing ?

Or am I missing something ?

In cryo environments it is different, but for most other environments modern crimped contacts are actually MORE reliable than soldered connections.

Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Jim on 12/27/2010 03:00 pm
Is it pretty standard to use 'connectors' on such critical wires rather than solder them ?

Seems like it would be better to solder them so you dont have to worry about a connector failing ?

Or am I missing something ?

Connectors are used across interfaces whether at the component, subsystem, or stage level.  It provides a point to do testing and a method for the ease of assembly.

The wires are soldered or crimped in the connectors.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: input~2 on 12/27/2010 05:41 pm
"GSAT-5P, GSLV-F06 were not insured"

from
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article995724.ece
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: sanman on 12/28/2010 03:58 am
So these seem to be the sequence of events leading to failure, imho:

1) aerodynamic stresses/vibrations build up as rocket traverses Max-Q
2) stresses/vibrations snap control cables
3) loss of control cable connectivity means engines stop responding to guidance correction commands
4) rocket loses correct orientation and angle of attack
5) rocket suffers structural breakup

Is that a reasonably plausible recap of what's happened, based on the evidence and statements available?

Edit: Wait, that can't quite be right, because I remember reading some statement from ISRO officials that at T+0.2 seconds after liftoff, they lost signal-connectivity to one of the boosters. So the control cable initially snapped during the stress of liftoff, and not at Max-Q. Fair enough?

In which case, why would stress of liftoff cause such a failure? Would it more likely be due to unaccounted vibration modes, or more likely be due to somebody just carelessly not connecting a cable firmly enough?
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: isro-watch on 12/28/2010 05:40 am
So these seem to be the sequence of events leading to failure, imho:

1) aerodynamic stresses/vibrations build up as rocket traverses Max-Q
2) stresses/vibrations snap control cables
3) loss of control cable connectivity means engines stop responding to guidance correction commands
4) rocket loses correct orientation and angle of attack
5) rocket suffers structural breakup

Is that a reasonably plausible recap of what's happened, based on the evidence and statements available?

Edit: Wait, that can't quite be right, because I remember reading some statement from ISRO officials that at T+0.2 seconds after liftoff

where did u get this from...Can you please provide any link...because this is new

, they lost signal-connectivity to one of the boosters. So the control cable initially snapped during the stress of liftoff, and not at Max-Q. Fair enough?

How come the rocket run for 45 seconds with cable snapped...the flight seemed perfect till 45 seconds....your first 5 point summary looks the possible explanation...snapping should have taken place at max-Q

In which case, why would stress of liftoff cause such a failure? Would it more likely be due to unaccounted vibration modes, or more likely be due to somebody just carelessly not connecting a cable firmly enough?
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: cd-slam on 12/28/2010 05:41 am
So these seem to be the sequence of events leading to failure, imho:

1) aerodynamic stresses/vibrations build up as rocket traverses Max-Q
2) stresses/vibrations snap control cables
3) loss of control cable connectivity means engines stop responding to guidance correction commands
4) rocket loses correct orientation and angle of attack
5) rocket suffers structural breakup

Is that a reasonably plausible recap of what's happened, based on the evidence and statements available?

Edit: Wait, that can't quite be right, because I remember reading some statement from ISRO officials that at T+0.2 seconds after liftoff, they lost signal-connectivity to one of the boosters. So the control cable initially snapped during the stress of liftoff, and not at Max-Q. Fair enough?

In which case, why would stress of liftoff cause such a failure? Would it more likely be due to unaccounted vibration modes, or more likely be due to somebody just carelessly not connecting a cable firmly enough?

The quote from The Hindu below, if correct, would seem to suggest your sequence 1-5 above is correct.
 
Quote
ISRO Chairman K. Radhakrisnan said at a press conference: “The controllability of the vehicle was lost after 47  seconds because we found that the command to control it did not reach  the actuator system in the first stage of the vehicle… We suspect that a  connector chord, which takes the signal down, has snapped.”

http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/article979052.ece

Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: isro-watch on 12/28/2010 05:43 am
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Heavier-payload-caused-Indian-rocket-s-failure-Expert/Article1-643393.aspx

Quote
Heavier payload caused Indian rocket's failure: Expert

How can the connectors be connected in such a delicate fashion that they snap...? Have rockets failed with this connector snapping stuff before ?

Can it be that the rocket was aerodynamically unstable...and that isro is just covering tracks...as suggested in the above article.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: sanman on 12/28/2010 06:59 am

where did u get this from...Can you please provide any link...because this is new


Nah, forget about it - I seem to have misread an article which itself is based on further misinterpretations.


http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics/nation/isro-teams-analysing-data-to-pinpoint-gslv-failure/articleshow/7166441.cms

Quote
The FAC to be formed is expected to be similar to the committee set up after the failure of GSLV-D3, primarily for the flight testing of indigenously developed Cryogenic Upper Stage (CUS), on April 15 this year.

The FAC comprising multi-disciplinary experts concluded at the time that the primary cause for the failure was the sudden loss of thrust in one out of the four liquid propellant strap-on stages (S4) immediately after lift-off at 0.2 sec.


Obviously that article is talking about the GSLV-D3 launch on April 15th, and the article itself mis-remembers those events by claiming that the Cryogenic Upper Stage failed 0.2secs after liftoff, when it probably failed 0.2secs after CUS-ignition (ie. well into the flight).

Oops, sorry about that.   :-[
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Jim on 12/28/2010 01:20 pm

Can it be that the rocket was aerodynamically unstable...and that isro is just covering tracks...as suggested in the above article.

All major launch vehicles are  aerodynamically unstable
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Jim on 12/28/2010 01:22 pm

How can the connectors be connected in such a delicate fashion that they snap...? Have rockets failed with this connector snapping stuff before ?


They can come apart.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: kevin-rf on 12/28/2010 01:33 pm
Well, they do have to come apart when staging events occur...

It sounds unlikely to me that four cables would snap at once (but not impossible), I personally would be looking upstream somewhere before the cable harness separates into four separate harnesses.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: jimvela on 12/28/2010 02:24 pm
How can the connectors be connected in such a delicate fashion that they snap...? Have rockets failed with this connector snapping stuff before ?
They can come apart.

US launches have failed when critical cables were either not mated or were mated but the retaining  hardware not tightened.

A recent example had a fairing fail to separate...

Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Lee Jay on 12/28/2010 02:54 pm
How can the connectors be connected in such a delicate fashion that they snap...? Have rockets failed with this connector snapping stuff before ?
They can come apart.

US launches have failed when critical cables were either not mated or were mated but the retaining  hardware not tightened.

A recent example had a fairing fail to separate...

I wasn't aware that the OCO failure investigation came to that conclusion.  The executive summary doesn't seem to state that:

http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/369037main_OCOexecutivesummary_71609.pdf

Do you have a source confirming what you have said?
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: pradeep on 12/28/2010 02:59 pm
So these seem to be the sequence of events leading to failure, imho:

1) aerodynamic stresses/vibrations build up as rocket traverses Max-Q
2) stresses/vibrations snap control cables
3) loss of control cable connectivity means engines stop responding to guidance correction commands
4) rocket loses correct orientation and angle of attack
5) rocket suffers structural breakup

Is that a reasonably plausible recap of what's happened, based on the evidence and statements available?

I have seen the video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH-0OH0MI2Y which shows a pretty good full vehicle picture when the failure occurs.

Notice that the payload fairing region crumbles first which points to aerodynamic failure since as I understand it these are at the nose of the vehicle. I think the explosion is really the Range Safety Officer pressing the self-destruct after the loss of payload.

Comments are welcome.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: sanman on 12/29/2010 01:04 pm
Here's another article which might have some more details:

http://www.sify.com/news/snapping-of-connectors-caused-launch-failure-scientist-news-national-km3lGaeaeaf.html
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Danderman on 12/29/2010 01:16 pm
Hmmm .. perhaps the heavier C15 upper stage generated loads at the second stage/third stage interface that were not expected.

Or else, some leaking propellant got onto the connectors.

Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Art LeBrun on 12/29/2010 01:31 pm
Isn't there a better term than snapping connectors? Are connectors suspended within conduit or attached to frame?
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Jim on 12/29/2010 02:11 pm
Isn't there a better term than snapping connectors? Are connectors suspended within conduit or attached to frame?

disconnected, unmated, unplugged,
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: edkyle99 on 12/29/2010 04:16 pm
Hmmm .. perhaps the heavier C15 upper stage generated loads at the second stage/third stage interface that were not expected.

Or else, some leaking propellant got onto the connectors.

Other possibilities might include aerodynamic loads created by the larger diameter payload fairing or a mangled umbilical disconnect sequence at liftoff.  Wouldn't these "connectors", or at least the cables tied to them, be located in a cable tunnel mounted on the outside of the rocket? 
I think that umbilical connectors are visible in this image of the third stage.  This is the general area of the described failure.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a2/GSLV_Mk2D3_Cryo_Engine.jpg
Of course workers would have been into this area during the leak investigation.

 - Ed Kyle
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Antares on 12/30/2010 03:40 am
This quad failure isn't credible to me, unless it was a progressive failure (1 then another then the other 2) and it was able to fly through 1 of them.

I suggest we wait for the investigation.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Danderman on 12/30/2010 03:51 am
I think that umbilical connectors are visible in this image of the third stage.  This is the general area of the described failure.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a2/GSLV_Mk2D3_Cryo_Engine.jpg
Of course workers would have been into this area during the leak investigation.

 - Ed Kyle

The image is of a MKII upper stage, the indigenous Indian stage. In this particular failure, the Khrunichev upper stage was used, ie the MKI stage.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: seshagirib on 12/30/2010 04:35 am
Isn't there a better term than snapping connectors? Are connectors suspended within conduit or attached to frame?

disconnected, unmated, unplugged,

Maybe the fact that they used the word "snapping" indicates they suspect the cables snapped rather than the mating connectors. - though it is even more difficult to imagine how this could happen.
May be a umbilical chord failed to unmate and somehow pulled at the cable assembly at launch.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Jim on 12/30/2010 04:44 am

May be a umbilical chord failed to unmate and somehow pulled at the cable assembly at launch.

That would be still be a connector failure
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: sanman on 12/30/2010 06:15 am
This quad failure isn't credible to me, unless it was a progressive failure (1 then another then the other 2) and it was able to fly through 1 of them.

I suggest we wait for the investigation.

[Apollo13 nerdy Clint Howard voice]: "We're reading a quadruple failure! That can't happen!"
 :P

Clearly, if 4 control cables snapped, there had to be some major underlying cause. Either some big shock to break the 4 of them, or else repeated series of shocks to cause progressive failure. The latter case, due to extremely high turbulence forces caused by the enlarged faring, sound the most plausible to me.

Anyway, here's the latest from TIME:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2040085,00.html

The article seems to mention a liquid core stage with solid strap-on boosters. Isn't it the opposite?


Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: sanman on 12/30/2010 06:28 am
So what are the speculative effects on turbulence forces / aerodynamic loads stemming from faring enlargement?

As a chemical engineer, I know what happens to a fluid at the interior of a pipe which suddenly transitions from a narrow diameter to a wider one - you get the pressure drop, vortices, etc, due to boundary layer separation. But that's at lower Reynolds number.

With a rocket traveling thru a slipstream with an enlarged faring at the front, you'd probably only care about boundary layer separation at lower Mach number. Once you're heavily hypersonic, then blunt-body behavior applies, and you shouldn't care about boundary layer, since the rocket is moving too fast for local pressure effects to matter much.

But Q-max is well below hypersonic velocities, isn't it?

We know the rocket broke up at ~47secs and 13km, but what was its velocity around the time of failure?

Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: sdsds on 12/30/2010 06:49 am
I believe indications of the Prandtl–Glauert singularity were visible in the launch telecast.  Can anyone confirm that?  It would imply that by the time of failure the vehicle was transonic.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: kch on 12/30/2010 07:02 am

Anyway, here's the latest from TIME:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2040085,00.html

The article seems to mention a liquid core stage with solid strap-on boosters. Isn't it the opposite?


Indeed it is the opposite.  It's an unusual arrangement, so the editor(s) may have thought it was a mistake and reversed it.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: input~2 on 12/30/2010 08:44 am
Quote
Snapping of 10 connectors led to GSLV failure: ISRO sources

Quote
Analysis of the data showed that snapping of connectors  had led to the disintegration of the vehicle and it had nothing to do  with the increase in the weight of the satellite, which was only  marginal

from
http://netindian.in/news/2010/12/29/0009647/snapping-10-connectors-led-gslv-failure-isro-sources
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: pradeep on 12/30/2010 08:52 am
Quote
Snapping of 10 connectors led to GSLV failure: ISRO sources

Quote
Analysis of the data showed that snapping of connectors  had led to the disintegration of the vehicle and it had nothing to do  with the increase in the weight of the satellite, which was only  marginal

from
http://netindian.in/news/2010/12/29/0009647/snapping-10-connectors-led-gslv-failure-isro-sources

I am also not a big fan of the weight causing the accident idea. GSAT-4 was 2180 kg. At 2310 kg, this satellite was only 130 kg heavier than GSAT-4. Also, adding weight does not matter as long as it is compensated by fuel or thrust.

My take is that the snapping of the connectors seem to be like an effect rather than the cause of the failure. The disintegration of the payload fairing could have led to this snapping. That could be a theory.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: input~2 on 12/30/2010 09:05 am
The disintegration of the payload fairing could have led to this snapping. That could be a theory.
I don't think so: The loss of control of the boosters took place at +47s, the payload fairing disintegration took place after +50s
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: pradeep on 12/30/2010 11:33 am
Do see this report- http://mangalorean.com/news.php?newstype=local&newsid=214177
Quote
"On the day of the failure it was announced the connectors relaying the command led to the rocket's failure. We have revisited and have confirmed that the connectors located between the cryogenic engine and the lower stage (engine) snapped. We have to find why the snapping happened," Nair said.

"As per the data there are no indications of any control command from the onboard computers to the rocket engines," he said.

He said simulated experiments will have to be carried out to find out why the connectors got disconnected from the rocket.

"Whether vibrations or external forces led to the snapping of connectors has to be found out. We will have to conduct simulation experiments to find that out," Nair said.

To a query as to why the ISRO was taking a long time to come out with a preliminary report, he said: "The preliminary data runs into more than 100 pages even though the flight is of around 50 seconds."
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: seshagirib on 12/30/2010 02:53 pm
^
quote

"
"As per the data there are no indications of any control command from the onboard computers to the rocket engines," he said.

"
At the time of failure would one expect steering commands or just commands to compensate for perturbations?
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: ugordan on 12/30/2010 04:32 pm
At the time of failure would one expect steering commands or just commands to compensate for perturbations?

They're one and the same. Steering commands are meant to correct for any attitude disturbances and keep the vehicle on the proper flight profile - pitch, yaw, roll for that phase of flight.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Targeteer on 12/30/2010 10:31 pm
^
quote

"
"As per the data there are no indications of any control command from the onboard computers to the rocket engines," he said.

If there were in fact NO commands from the computers to the engines as implied by the statement, the vehicle would/could not have pitched over after launch--correct?  No commands would seem to have resulted in a much earlier loss of control...  A loss of commands later in the launch would seem more likely, belying the quote above.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: sanman on 12/31/2010 01:29 am
Let's look more closely at this:

http://netindian.in/news/2010/12/29/0009647/snapping-10-connectors-led-gslv-failure-isro-sources

Quote
"The take-off was smooth and the flight was normal till 47 seconds. But trouble arose in the next three seconds, when 10 connectors located between the second and third stage (cryogenic stage) got separated, leading to the vehicle losing controllability," the sources said.


So that sounds like something could have happened with the cryogenic upper stage (CUS), that could have caused a major problem to the connectors below it. Could a propellant tank have ruptured/leaked due to aerodynamic stresses, and then disabled those connectors/cables?


Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: seshagirib on 12/31/2010 02:32 am
^
quote

"
"As per the data there are no indications of any control command from the onboard computers to the rocket engines," he said.

If there were in fact NO commands from the computers to the engines as implied by the statement, the vehicle would/could not have pitched over after launch--correct?  No commands would seem to have resulted in a much earlier loss of control...  A loss of commands later in the launch would seem more likely, belying the quote above.

On a second reading may be we should interpret the statement as:

"....no indications fo any control command from the oboard computers (reaching) to the rocket engines" - (word in italics mine).
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Danderman on 12/31/2010 03:15 am
So that sounds like something could have happened with the cryogenic upper stage (CUS), that could have caused a major problem to the connectors below it. Could a propellant tank have ruptured/leaked due to aerodynamic stresses, and then disabled those connectors/cables?

It looks like its time to remind everyone that the third stage was experiencing a leak on the launch stand a few days before the launch. That leaking propellant had to go somewhere.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: sanman on 12/31/2010 03:47 am
Yeah, but it sounded like it was just a tiny cryo leak, or otherwise they would've aborted the launch.

The rocket lifted off fine, so it seems the connectors were working fine for those first 47 seconds. But maybe that small leak could have turned into a big leak or even a rupture as the aerodynamic stresses built up?
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: pradeep on 12/31/2010 04:23 am
It looks like its time to remind everyone that the third stage was experiencing a leak on the launch stand a few days before the launch. That leaking propellant had to go somewhere.

Just to clarify. It was helium that was leaking and not the propellant. Refer to this story: http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=space&id=news/asd/2010/12/21/02.xml

I guess Helium is used for cooling purposes or something?
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: seshagirib on 12/31/2010 09:47 am

It looks like its time to remind everyone that the third stage was experiencing a leak on the launch stand a few days before the launch. That leaking propellant had to go somewhere.


Maybe some access panel was opened on the pad allowing moisture/dust to get into the connectors? Worse still some one forgot a wrench in the innards of the vehicle.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: pradeep on 12/31/2010 11:05 am
ISRO has posted the preliminary findings report on the GSLV failure today.

Report: #GSLV Preliminary Failure Report is out - http://isro.gov.in/pressrelease/scripts/pressreleasein.aspx?Dec31_2010
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: input~2 on 12/31/2010 12:24 pm
ISRO has posted the preliminary findings report on the GSLV failure today.

Report: #GSLV Preliminary Failure Report is out - http://isro.gov.in/pressrelease/scripts/pressreleasein.aspx?Dec31_2010 (http://isro.gov.in/pressrelease/scripts/pressreleasein.aspx?Dec31_2010)

Quote from:  GSLV Preliminary Failure Report
The exact cause of snapping of the set of connectors, whether due to external forces like vibration, dynamic pressure is to be analysed further and pin-pointed.
So apparently no clues yet on the cause(s) of the famous connectors snapping..
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: edkyle99 on 01/01/2011 03:06 am
ISRO has posted the preliminary findings report on the GSLV failure today.

Report: #GSLV Preliminary Failure Report is out - http://isro.gov.in/pressrelease/scripts/pressreleasein.aspx?Dec31_2010 (http://isro.gov.in/pressrelease/scripts/pressreleasein.aspx?Dec31_2010)

Quote from:  GSLV Preliminary Failure Report
The exact cause of snapping of the set of connectors, whether due to external forces like vibration, dynamic pressure is to be analysed further and pin-pointed.
So apparently no clues yet on the cause(s) of the famous connectors snapping..

The report says:  "These connectors are intended to be separated only on issue of a separation command at 292 seconds after lift-off. The premature snapping of these connectors has led to stoppage of continuous flow of control commands to the First Stage control electronics, consequently leading to loss of control and break-up of the vehicle."

So how are these connectors separated at 292 seconds?  Is this "snapping" actually a separation process that usually only happens at staging, but that somehow happened prematurely?  The phrase "premature snapping" seems to indicate that "snapping" might be a standard procedure when it is not "premature".

 - Ed Kyle
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: seshagirib on 01/01/2011 04:00 am
^

Looking at the flight profile of GSLV the the 292s time mark corresponds roughly to the Stage 2 seperation.

Does any one know if (speaking generically) the electrical connectors are demated prior to pyro seperation of stages or it happens  automatically due to the seperation of stages?
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: seshagirib on 01/01/2011 05:36 am
ISRO has posted the preliminary findings report on the GSLV failure today.

Report: #GSLV Preliminary Failure Report is out - http://isro.gov.in/pressrelease/scripts/pressreleasein.aspx?Dec31_2010 (http://isro.gov.in/pressrelease/scripts/pressreleasein.aspx?Dec31_2010)

Quote from:  GSLV Preliminary Failure Report
The exact cause of snapping of the set of connectors, whether due to external forces like vibration, dynamic pressure is to be analysed further and pin-pointed.
So apparently no clues yet on the cause(s) of the famous connectors snapping..

The report says:  "These connectors are intended to be separated only on issue of a separation command at 292 seconds after lift-off. The premature snapping of these connectors has led to stoppage of continuous flow of control commands to the First Stage control electronics, consequently leading to loss of control and break-up of the vehicle."

So how are these connectors separated at 292 seconds?  Is this "snapping" actually a separation process that usually only happens at staging, but that somehow happened prematurely?  The phrase "premature snapping" seems to indicate that "snapping" might be a standard procedure when it is not "premature".

 - Ed Kyle

This could be a software error - issue of a connector separation command too early in the flight....But difficult to imagine,why the software would be messed with to that extent, for this particular flight.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Art LeBrun on 01/01/2011 05:47 am
Short circuit anyone? Voltage spike?
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: sanman on 01/01/2011 08:57 am
Read this:

http://www.hindu.com/2011/01/01/stories/2011010157991800.htm

Quote
Snapping of connectors caused GSLV failure: ISRO

Staff Reporter

Programme Review and Strategy Committee set up to look into the future of the programme

The precise cause of the snapping of conductors is to be analysed further

Failure analysis panel will recommend corrective action on GSLV vehicle

BANGALORE: A Preliminary Failure Analysis Team constituted to study the flight data of GSLV-F06, which crashed seconds after its launch on December 25, said that the primary cause of the failure was “the untimely and inadvertent” snapping of a group of 10 connectors located at the base of the Russian Cryogenic stage.

The fact that all of those connectors are located at the base of the cryogenic stage can't be a coincidence. They must have been weakened by exposure to cryogenic temperatures. At those temperatures, anything will crack like glass.

I'm thinking that the aerodynamic stresses caused a cryo fuel leak in that Cryogenic Upper Stage. Otherwise, how else do you explain all 10 connectors failing nearly simultaneously?
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Jim on 01/01/2011 12:00 pm

The fact that all of those connectors are located at the base of the cryogenic stage can't be a coincidence.

No, where else would they be?  And no, not all of them would react the same way if exposed to cryo temps. 

It could be a structural failure.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: ugordan on 01/01/2011 03:30 pm
Didn't they say the cryo stage was lengthened to increase propellant load? Maybe this is a snafu with longer cables - improperly fastened, flapping around, etc.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: input~2 on 01/01/2011 05:51 pm
Quote from:  ISRO GSLV Preliminary failure report
These connectors are intended to be separated only on issue of a  separation command at 292 seconds after lift-off.
Is there a possibility that a modification to the software reproduced inadvertently such a separation command encoding sequence at 47.8s after lift-off ?
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: sanman on 01/01/2011 06:16 pm
Exactly how does stage separation occur? Through explosive bolts?

Premature stage separation is a specific type of structural failure which seems to have more possible causes associated with it than other types.

Whether the connectors failed due to premature stage separation, or whether premature stage separation occurred due to connector failure, there should be some way to discern cause from effect.

How is stage separation recorded/registered? Hopefully, there would be something in the telemetry logs which shows whether the stage separated an instant before the control signals were lost, or whether the control signals were lost before the stage separation occurred.

What are the main ways through which aerodynamic loads and turbulence are detected - purely through the inertial guidance system?
If so, then the frequency and magnitude of correction commands would be an indicator to the buildup of such forces.

But how are sheer forces detected or monitored?
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Jim on 01/01/2011 11:47 pm
Exactly how does stage separation occur? Through explosive bolts?

Premature stage separation is a specific type of structural failure which seems to have more possible causes associated with it than other types.

Whether the connectors failed due to premature stage separation, or whether premature stage separation occurred due to connector failure, there should be some way to discern cause from effect.

1.  How is stage separation recorded/registered? Hopefully, there would be something in the telemetry logs which shows whether the stage separated an instant before the control signals were lost, or whether the control signals were lost before the stage separation occurred.

2. What are the main ways through which aerodynamic loads and turbulence are detected - purely through the inertial guidance system?
If so, then the frequency and magnitude of correction commands would be an indicator to the buildup of such forces.

3.But how are sheer forces detected or monitored?

1.  Break wires

2.  Correct

3.  See # 2
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: pradeep on 01/02/2011 05:50 pm
The report says:  "These connectors are intended to be separated only on issue of a separation command at 292 seconds after lift-off. The premature snapping of these connectors has led to stoppage of continuous flow of control commands to the First Stage control electronics, consequently leading to loss of control and break-up of the vehicle."

So how are these connectors separated at 292 seconds?  Is this "snapping" actually a separation process that usually only happens at staging, but that somehow happened prematurely?  The phrase "premature snapping" seems to indicate that "snapping" might be a standard procedure when it is not "premature".

 - Ed Kyle

As per the launch manifest for GSLV-F06, second stage burn out is at 289 seconds. So, perhaps this separation should have taken place after GS2 burnout and GS3 ignition, which makes sense since this separator is below the  cryo engine and the computer is on the top.

Exactly how does stage separation occur? Through explosive bolts?

Each stage separation occurs using different methods. For GSLV-F06, it uses Flexible Linear Shaped Charge for first stage, Pyro Actuated Collet Release Mechanism for the second stage, Merman Band Bolt Cutter Mechanism for the third stage and spring thrusters for spacecraft separation.

Pradeep
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: seshagirib on 01/03/2011 02:59 am
Found this to be a informative article on stage seperation techniques:

http://daretodreamsid.blogspot.com/2010/07/stage-separation-of-space-launch.html
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: sanman on 01/03/2011 07:52 am
ISRO seems to be constituting panels of "Eminent Experts" to go over the recent GSLV failure and to review the upcoming challenges ahead:

http://www.brahmand.com/news/ISRO-forms-eminent-panels-to-study-GSLV-F06-failure/5942/1/21.html

Heh, well it's not exactly India's Augustine Commission, but hopefully some good comes out of it.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: starsalor on 01/03/2011 10:25 am
Looks to me the rocket was not properly balanced.......then the snaps occurred.  Since the rocket was stretched, it seems to be nose-heavy,thus breaking apart at maximum dynamic pressures.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: cd-slam on 01/03/2011 11:02 am
Looks to me the rocket was not properly balanced.......then the snaps occurred.  Since the rocket was stretched, it seems to be nose-heavy,thus breaking apart at maximum dynamic pressures.

That's a fairly big leap of faith. Until there is evidence to the contrary, I would tend to believe the official word, premature snapping of connectors.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Jim on 01/03/2011 01:59 pm
Looks to me the rocket was not properly balanced.......then the snaps occurred.  Since the rocket was stretched, it seems to be nose-heavy,thus breaking apart at maximum dynamic pressures.

No such thing as not "not properly balanced" in this case.  LV's are not "balanced" fore and aft. 
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: sanman on 01/03/2011 03:34 pm
More on the upcoming review of India's space program:

http://www.bombaynews.net/story/727023/ht/Kasturirangan-declines-comment-on-rocket-programme-review
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: sanman on 01/04/2011 04:40 am
Here's the latest from AVweek on the GSLV failure:

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=space&id=news/awx/2011/01/03/awx_01_03_2011_p0-279814.xml&headline=Indian%20Launch%20Mishap%20Linked%20To%20Connector%20Failure

Meanwhile, ISRO to get supercomputer upgrade:

http://www.hpcwire.com/news/New-Half-Petaflop-Super-Will-Boost-Indias-Space-Program-112828474.html

http://www.livemint.com/2011/01/04030242/Wipro-building-India8217s-f.html?atype=tp
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: robertross on 01/05/2011 01:58 am

Meanwhile, ISRO to get supercomputer upgrade:

http://www.hpcwire.com/news/New-Half-Petaflop-Super-Will-Boost-Indias-Space-Program-112828474.html

http://www.livemint.com/2011/01/04030242/Wipro-building-India8217s-f.html?atype=tp

That's the kind of investment to help propel a nation in R&D. Very good to see. Thanks for the links.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Salo on 01/05/2011 07:51 pm
German-made Parts Might Be Blamed for Indian Satellite-launcher Failure (http://english.cri.cn/6966/2011/01/05/1781s613629.htm)
German-made connectors snapped: ISRO (http://www.sify.com/news/german-made-connectors-snapped-isro-news-national-lbfo4jjcjaa.html)
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: edkyle99 on 01/05/2011 07:52 pm
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/gslv-failed-as-germanmade-connectors-snapped/139522-11.html

The "snapped" connectors were German-made, for whatever that is worth. 

Note that this report says that even the "backup" connectors "snapped".

I'm an electrical engineer, but I am still completely baffled as to what the term "snapped" means when used to describe connectors.   :-\

 - Ed Kyle 

Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: robertross on 01/05/2011 10:47 pm
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/gslv-failed-as-germanmade-connectors-snapped/139522-11.html

The "snapped" connectors were German-made, for whatever that is worth. 

Note that this report says that even the "backup" connectors "snapped".

I'm an electrical engineer, but I am still completely baffled as to what the term "snapped" means when used to describe connectors.   :-\

 - Ed Kyle 

Yeah, it's more likely the improper use of the term. Perhaps a 'case fracture', or 'premature separation event' (since these would likely be break-away connectors designed to separate at a specific pulling force).

If I were to put money on it, without even knowing the full depth of the issue, I'd say connectors were not properly spec'd (or applied) for the vehicle, given the cryo conditions & vehicle's acceleration environment.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: edkyle99 on 01/05/2011 11:48 pm
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/gslv-failed-as-germanmade-connectors-snapped/139522-11.html

The "snapped" connectors were German-made, for whatever that is worth. 

Note that this report says that even the "backup" connectors "snapped".

I'm an electrical engineer, but I am still completely baffled as to what the term "snapped" means when used to describe connectors.   :-\

 - Ed Kyle 

Yeah, it's more likely the improper use of the term. Perhaps a 'case fracture', or 'premature separation event' (since these would likely be break-away connectors designed to separate at a specific pulling force).

If I were to put money on it, without even knowing the full depth of the issue, I'd say connectors were not properly spec'd (or applied) for the vehicle, given the cryo conditions & vehicle's acceleration environment.

My guess would be premature "separation", although I don't know how anyone could say for certain that the cables separated *at* the connectors (unless there was on-board video).  I suppose it might be a good conjecture to make if the symptoms indicated that *all* electrical connections suddenly opened at the same instant. 

Aren't "cable cutters" often used for separating electrical connections during staging?  Not always though.  I've recently read about a failed Atlas booster package electrical separation event where a connector was supposed to be pulled apart by a lanyard as the booster fell away (the lanyard failed on that one, causing a bad separation that must have messed up the booster separation event signal, leading to loss of flight control).

 - Ed Kyle
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Art LeBrun on 01/06/2011 02:41 am
A story needing more details: AC-33 suffered an electrical event at staging that, of all things, lead to Centaur ignition while under sustainer flight. I would like to find the accident report and any films (night shot but I don't know the cloud conditions).
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: pradeep on 01/06/2011 06:28 am
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/gslv-failed-as-germanmade-connectors-snapped/139522-11.html

The "snapped" connectors were German-made, for whatever that is worth. 

Note that this report says that even the "backup" connectors "snapped".

I'm an electrical engineer, but I am still completely baffled as to what the term "snapped" means when used to describe connectors.   :-\

 - Ed Kyle 

Yeah, it's more likely the improper use of the term. Perhaps a 'case fracture', or 'premature separation event' (since these would likely be break-away connectors designed to separate at a specific pulling force).

If I were to put money on it, without even knowing the full depth of the issue, I'd say connectors were not properly spec'd (or applied) for the vehicle, given the cryo conditions & vehicle's acceleration environment.

My guess would be premature "separation", although I don't know how anyone could say for certain that the cables separated *at* the connectors (unless there was on-board video).  I suppose it might be a good conjecture to make if the symptoms indicated that *all* electrical connections suddenly opened at the same instant. 

Aren't "cable cutters" often used for separating electrical connections during staging?  Not always though.  I've recently read about a failed Atlas booster package electrical separation event where a connector was supposed to be pulled apart by a lanyard as the booster fell away (the lanyard failed on that one, causing a bad separation that must have messed up the booster separation event signal, leading to loss of flight control).

 - Ed Kyle

I think they mean "disconnect" here when they say snapped. That is generally the way a lay Indian person in Mumbai would describe it when we have electrical complaints. I am not so sure of other places in India. I guess ISRO scientists wanted to use local layman terms while saying this to ensure people here understood.

I also hope they're not trying to blame foreign components here because whatever the source of the component - Indian or foreign - it was their duty to check whether the system worked. Quality check and assurance is the purchaser's responsibility. I think it is more the media waiting for every tid bit of information and bloating the quote out of all context.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Jim on 01/06/2011 11:46 am
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/gslv-failed-as-germanmade-connectors-snapped/139522-11.html

The "snapped" connectors were German-made, for whatever that is worth. 



Deutsch connectors are used extensively in Delta and Atlas
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: asdert on 01/06/2011 12:57 pm
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/gslv-failed-as-germanmade-connectors-snapped/139522-11.html

The "snapped" connectors were German-made, for whatever that is worth. 



Deutsch connectors are used extensively in Delta and Atlas

But Deutsch connectors are not from Germany. Deutsch is a US connector company.

(edit for typo)
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: robertross on 01/06/2011 03:28 pm
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/gslv-failed-as-germanmade-connectors-snapped/139522-11.html

The "snapped" connectors were German-made, for whatever that is worth. 



Deutsch connectors are used extensively in Delta and Atlas

But Deutsch connectors are not from Germany. Deutsch is a US connector company.

(edit for typo)

With manufacturing facilities around the world.

Not sure if this is the EXACT connector used, but it's probably close:
http://www.deutsch.net/deutsch-product-search.aspx?page=3

I've used various types of Deutsch for years and NEVER had a problem with their quality. Obviously not space-designed components, but the company is very reputable.

As Jim stated: they use them on Atlas & Delta. Need one say more?
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: sanman on 01/06/2011 03:40 pm


I think they mean "disconnect" here when they say snapped. That is generally the way a lay Indian person in Mumbai would describe it when we have electrical complaints. I am not so sure of other places in India. I guess ISRO scientists wanted to use local layman terms while saying this to ensure people here understood.

I also hope they're not trying to blame foreign components here because whatever the source of the component - Indian or foreign - it was their duty to check whether the system worked. Quality check and assurance is the purchaser's responsibility. I think it is more the media waiting for every tid bit of information and bloating the quote out of all context.


Well, first of all, I think he was just casually responding to a query on who made the connectors, and not actually assigning blame to them. After all, for 10 connectors to fail simultaneously sounds like there was some underlying cause (eg. premature state separation)

The thing here is that the media are hungry for even the slightest new tidbit of news on this failed launch, and so even the smallest innocent remark seems to get magnified through headlines.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: seshagirib on 01/07/2011 05:47 am
It is not clear (to me) if the connectors get separated because of the stage moving away (stage separation ) - that is pulled apart as the stages move away from each other OR there is some other explicit mechanism for de-mating the connector pairs, prior to the stages moving away.
Could anyone in the know clarify?
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Jim on 01/07/2011 12:01 pm
It is not clear (to me) if the connectors get separated because of the stage moving away (stage separation ) - that is pulled apart as the stages move away from each other OR there is some other explicit mechanism for de-mating the connector pairs, prior to the stages moving away.
Could anyone in the know clarify?

the first method.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: seshagirib on 01/23/2011 08:16 am
Don't see how they can launch anything - PSLV or GSLV without sorting out this failure completely.

 Same/Similar connectors and separation mechanisms  may  be shared across the family of launch vehicles(?).
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: input~2 on 01/29/2011 04:55 pm
New information from ISRO on why, potentially, the connectors snapped:
http://www.sify.com/news/rocket-failure-isro-awaits-data-from-russia-news-national-lb2qugdhiab.html (http://www.sify.com/news/rocket-failure-isro-awaits-data-from-russia-news-national-lb2qugdhiab.html)
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: seshagirib on 02/02/2011 03:32 am
New information from ISRO on why, potentially, the connectors snapped:
Quote
The German made connectors are fixed on a metal plate. The plate,  in  turn, is fixed to a shroud or cylindrical cover that comes between the  cryogenic engine and the lower stage (engine).   
 According to Nair, the shroud made of composites is part of the Russian  cryogenic engine and it got deformed due to the flight load. The  committee is yet to conclude why the shroud was not able to bear the  load.
from: http://www.sify.com/news/rocket-failure-isro-awaits-data-from-russia-news-national-lb2qugdhiab.html (http://www.sify.com/news/rocket-failure-isro-awaits-data-from-russia-news-national-lb2qugdhiab.html)


How did they come to the conclusion that the shroud deformed?
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: isro-watch on 02/02/2011 04:19 am
So now it is clear that the problem was with cryogenic engine and not with the first stage

also, may be something to do with weight coupled by other factors.


http://mangalorean.com/news.php?newstype=local&newsid=219009
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: input~2 on 02/08/2011 03:07 pm
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_no-major-design-flaw-in-failed-gslv-f06-ex-isro-chief_1503933 (http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_no-major-design-flaw-in-failed-gslv-f06-ex-isro-chief_1503933)
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Shams on 02/22/2011 02:47 pm
Rocket failure: Russian, Indian scientists differ on cause

The Russians have pointed their fingers at the rocket's bigger heat shield (4 metre) as the proximate cause for high atmospheric load on the rocket that broke it. Refuting that theory, Indian officials cited an earlier GSLV rocket that went up with a heat shield of similar size.



http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics/nation/rocket-failure-russian-indian-scientists-differ-on-cause/articleshow/7546540.cms


Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: sanman on 04/19/2011 11:56 pm
Flawed Shroud Design the Cause of GSLV Failure:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/8032380.cms
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Danderman on 04/20/2011 12:26 am
"A successful flight of the GSLV is not an impossibility."

Truly inspiring.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Salo on 04/20/2011 08:08 pm
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/node/23871 (http://www.deccanchronicle.com/node/23871)
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Salo on 04/20/2011 08:17 pm
http://www.hindu.com/2011/04/21/stories/2011042157600900.htm (http://www.hindu.com/2011/04/21/stories/2011042157600900.htm)
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Salo on 04/21/2011 06:25 pm
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics/nation/isro-to-conduct-gslv-test-flight-in-2012-with-russian-cryogenic-stage-engine/articleshow/8044557.cms (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics/nation/isro-to-conduct-gslv-test-flight-in-2012-with-russian-cryogenic-stage-engine/articleshow/8044557.cms)
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: input~2 on 04/21/2011 07:22 pm
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics/nation/isro-to-conduct-gslv-test-flight-in-2012-with-russian-cryogenic-stage-engine/articleshow/8044557.cms (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics/nation/isro-to-conduct-gslv-test-flight-in-2012-with-russian-cryogenic-stage-engine/articleshow/8044557.cms)

Compare these 2 extracts:
"Of the seven engines procured from Russia, only two are left, said Ramakrishnan."
and "Only two of the seven GSLV launches have been total successes."

AFAIU, 6 MKI + 1 MKII = 7 launches
ISRO should have only one Russian engine left...
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Salo on 04/21/2011 10:05 pm
Yes, it is.
There is only one 12KRB with KVD1A engine.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Shams on 04/23/2011 07:42 am
Weak Russian component downed Indian rocket: Ex-ISRO chief

The destruction of India's Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle (GSLV) in mid air in 2010 was due to an inherent weakness in a component in the Russian supplied cryogenic engine.

Read more.........

http://mangalorean.com/news.php?newstype=local&newsid=234229

shams
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: kevin-rf on 06/06/2011 12:58 pm
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/asd/2011/06/03/09.xml&headline=No%20Design%20Fault%20Found%20In%20Indian%20GSLV&channel=space
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: Salo on 07/13/2011 12:40 pm
http://www.livemint.com/2011/07/08213841/K-Radhakrishnan--Flight-stage.html?h=B
Quote
So what about the seventh cryogenic engine from Russia? There were reports that both Isro and Russia disagreed on technical reasons for the failure of the most recent GSLV mission in December.

The last two engines (the sixth and seventh) have greater thrust than previous engines. They was supplied in 2004 and 2005, and stored in specified conditions. So the reason for the failure (in December) was the inadvertent snapping of the connectors, well before time [connectors are critical for controlling the vehicle]. This happened because the shroud gave away (the shroud is a casing that separates the liquid and solid stages of the launch cover). It’s a cover that sits on (the) bottom of the cryogenic stage. Now, why did the shroud go? Was it the 4m heat shield? We then realized that it was the inherent vulnerability of the shroud. The shroud was at the bottom of the cryogenic stage. There were 10 connectors in two stages, and both gave way. Initially, the Russians said it was our 4m shield that was responsible. We put both our analyses, and finally the Russians also came around. We then decided that the seventh engine has to be inspected, too. We did it and found that they weren’t made in the dimensions specified to in the document. There are lots of shortcomings, and the Russians admitted it. Now, the point is that this has to be corrected before it can be used for launch and would require a detailed inspection by them.
Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: chota on 07/19/2013 01:10 pm
Resurrecting an old thread

http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories986.htm

"The fault was there from the first GSLV that flew with the Russian cryogenic engine in 2001. The weakness in the shroud caught ISRO on December 25 last year,"

"All GSLV's that flew with Russian cryogenic engine have encountered problems carrying a payload of over 2,000 kg"

"In 2007, one of the connecters of the GSLV rocket got snapped and the rocket's performance was considered as below par. The rocket had carried 2,130 kg INSAT-4CR satellite"

Title: Re: FAILURE: GSLV - GSAT-5P - December 25, 2010
Post by: K210 on 08/18/2013 06:57 am
Resurrecting an old thread

http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories986.htm

"The fault was there from the first GSLV that flew with the Russian cryogenic engine in 2001. The weakness in the shroud caught ISRO on December 25 last year,"

"All GSLV's that flew with Russian cryogenic engine have encountered problems carrying a payload of over 2,000 kg"

"In 2007, one of the connecters of the GSLV rocket got snapped and the rocket's performance was considered as below par. The rocket had carried 2,130 kg INSAT-4CR satellite"



The latest GSLV has a onboard camera to monitor the shroud.