NASASpaceFlight.com Forum
SLS / Orion / Beyond-LEO HSF - Constellation => Cancelled Ares I and Ares Tests => Topic started by: padrat on 12/17/2008 01:21 am
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Thought I might update the general public on what's happening at Pad B. They are wrapping up the assembly of the crane that will assemble the rest of the towers.
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cool pics!! ;D when will the construction been finished? ???
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Latest I've heard is they are shooting to be done with the crane in March. But I've also heard that probably only two towers will be operational (with wiring, etc.) for the Hubble launch in May. Makes sense considering work will probably stop in April when LON rolls out to the pad. Of course, that is if they decide to stick with the two pad option.
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One tower is done!:
http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/countdown/video/chan4large.jpg
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Complete tower from KSC images:
http://mediaarchive.ksc.nasa.gov/search.cfm?cat=4
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If the new system is going to be in place before Ares I-X rolls out, will they likely cancel the re-location of the existing lightning protection mast?
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Heh, I was wondering what in the world was up with that funny looking crane. Looks much more elegant when it is fully deployed.
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Thanks Padrat....sweet pictures. That tower will be one magnificent sight for me next time I make it to KSC, I look forward to that. Last time I was there (6/07) I don't remember seeing them even started yet.
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If the new system is going to be in place before Ares I-X rolls out, will they likely cancel the re-location of the existing lightning protection mast?
I believe that is the current plan. They are hoping to have the towers operational by I-X's launch date. Guess we'll know for sure when they start dismantling the extension framework sitting in the parking lot.
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Video from NASA Video Files of Lightning tower:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6j72_lT5Ho
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NEW LIGHTNING TOWER STANDS AT PAD FOR CONSTELLATION PROGRAM
http://www.space-multimedia.nl.eu.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4597
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Work on tower 1 visible in the background:
http://mediaarchive.ksc.nasa.gov/search.cfm?cat=4
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I heard they are almost done with the second tower, any one confirm? Also looks like good chance for Ares I-X will be on schedule for July.
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I heard they are almost done with the second tower, any one confirm? Also looks like good chance for Ares I-X will be on schedule for July.
Over one and a half. There's a Pad Rat in L2 taking pictures every couple of days, it's about a 500 post thread now, very cool.
On Ares I-X, you're just reading Chris' article??
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2009/01/sts-125400-single-pad-option-progress-protect-ares-i-x/
Ares I-X is only on for July of they go with single page for STS-400.
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Thought I might update the general public on what's happening at Pad B. They are wrapping up the assembly of the crane that will assemble the rest of the towers.
Coor, look at the bow in that boom clearly visible in picture 156. I always find it amazing how such a 'flimsy' structure can support these masses. Great pictures.
Ross.
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Ross,
That flimsy truss is pretty big actually
Remember a crane is just a big teeter totter. One of those pics show the stacks and stacks of counter weights.
Where I used to work they had a crane lift, and they had a big mobile crane drive onto the complex, and trailing behind it was a semi trailer full of counterweights!
Duane
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I heard they are almost done with the second tower, any one confirm?
The second tower, tower #1, has only two sections in place right now. They haven't been able to do any lifts yesterday or today due to high winds. Went up on the tower to take vacuum readings yesterday and it was pretty brutal. Temp was in the high 40's/ low 50's with about a 30 mph wind. Granted, most of the country is alot colder right now, but that's pretty chilly for a floridian used to 90 degree heat 8 to 9 months of the year!
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Went up on the tower to take vacuum readings yesterday and it was pretty brutal. Temp was in the high 40's/ low 50's with about a 30 mph wind. Granted, most of the country is alot colder right now, but that's pretty chilly for a floridian used to 90 degree heat 8 to 9 months of the year!
Yeah. It was -30F the other day, before windchill, where I work. And yes, the wind was blowing, but does it matter what the windchill is when the bulb temperature is already -30F?
But I hear you. I used to live in Florida. I knew I had gone local when I felt chilly one day when it was 80F.
- Ed Kyle
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I heard they are almost done with the second tower, any one confirm?
The second tower, tower #1, has only two sections in place right now. They haven't been able to do any lifts yesterday or today due to high winds. Went up on the tower to take vacuum readings yesterday and it was pretty brutal. Temp was in the high 40's/ low 50's with about a 30 mph wind. Granted, most of the country is alot colder right now, but that's pretty chilly for a floridian used to 90 degree heat 8 to 9 months of the year!
I would sympathize padrat, but i have had snow 2/3 last days for me so 40/50's seems tropical...
however I do hope the winds die down so that the tower can be finished, however I don't think that the last one will be done before sts-119. How much will the launch disrupt the schedule?
I'm going to get some hot cider now....
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New photos up on the KSC media gallery:
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Anytime I see awesome towers like that I have the urge to start hanging antennas and microwave dishes on them...
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I wouldn't think the launch would disrupt it very much at all with the exception of the 3 days for S0007. That's pretty much the only time that the contractors wouldn't be allowed out here.
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I wouldn't think the launch would disrupt it very much at all with the exception of the 3 days for S0007. That's pretty much the only time that the contractors wouldn't be allowed out here.
Thanks for the info, looks like a good day for the lift!
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Second tower images, although it is designated tower #1:
http://mediaarchive.ksc.nasa.gov/search.cfm?cat=4
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I like this wide shot from the KSC gallery
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Is there any formal plan for putting video or still cameras on those towers? I wonder what kind of a view they'd have for shuttle launches off pad A, too bad no shuttles are scheduled for launch from B (other than STS-125 rescue hopefully not needed) or else the cameras would get awesome closeup views.
I wonder if they'll put cameras on those towers for the Ares I-X launch.
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Other than the odds of having to replace the cameras every so often after a lightning strike, I would be all for those angles ;D
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hT6_bgxgng
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Other than the odds of having to replace the cameras every so often after a lightning strike
Not a major problem. The reason for those large composite insulators at the top of the towers is that the lightening goes down the network of cables supported by them - not down the towers or even down a conductor attached to its side.
If the strike went down the towers you would get nasty ground currents at the bottom in an area with lots of delicate electronics and flamables in pipes where you really dont't want them. If the strike fried the cameras on the towers there would be a risk of frying electronics that support the pad directly.
The ground currents around a strike are sufficient to kill someone lying down some didstance from the strike point as a result of the potential difference between their head and feet.
Rick
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Crane has been moved and is now set-up for the third tower:
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wow, spectacular aerial pictures:
http://mediaarchive.ksc.nasa.gov/search.cfm?cat=4
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Geeze...and I thought the Catenary Lightning Protection system was tall!
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Wow that is really impressive. It really makes Pad 39B look even cooler. I can't wait to see the camera angles we will be able to get off those things.
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It's Done!
well except for those pesky wires that were the entire reason it was created.....
http://mediaarchive.ksc.nasa.gov/search.cfm?cat=4
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It's Done!
well except for those pesky wires that were the entire reason it was created.....
http://mediaarchive.ksc.nasa.gov/search.cfm?cat=4
Nice, any idea how long it will take to install the wires?
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Are they only building 3 towers? Or is the 4th one not started yet?
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Are they only building 3 towers? Or is the 4th one not started yet?
Only three, to save money
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It's Done!
well except for those pesky wires that were the entire reason it was created.....
http://mediaarchive.ksc.nasa.gov/search.cfm?cat=4
Wow...I was there on Wednesday for a close-up tour and the third tower wasn't topped off yet.
I did, however, see the cranes for assembling the Ares I launch pad, but didn't realize what they were for.
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You know, it is often discussed on how it seems NASA moves at a snails pace when it comes to construction. But this one area where things seemed to move very fast.
It seems like it was yesterday that Chris was asking me to do a render of the pad with the towers and wires, and look at that, they are complete (the towers at least)
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Thanks for the update. I will have to get back on L2 shortly to keep up with the action. The arrestors at the top of the towers are gigantic
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So, at what point can NASA decide that this is far enough along that Ares I-X won't need the lightning tower extension for the FSS on 39B?
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Well, just to give you an idea, they are currently scheduled to begin taking down the wires and FSS lightning mast next week. Will be bringing a big crane on to the pad surface next week, but obviously not one of the 21000's scale.
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FINAL NEW LIGHTNING TOWER STANDS AT PAD FOR CONSTELLATION PROGRAM
http://www.space-multimedia.nl.eu.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4683
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Well, just to give you an idea, they are currently scheduled to begin taking down the wires and FSS lightning mast next week. Will be bringing a big crane on to the pad surface next week, but obviously not one of the 21000's scale.
Are they finaly going to remove the old crane equipment room like they did years ago at pad A?
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Sorry if this has been asked already but are there any new camera's up there? for launch viewing.
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Sorry if this has been asked already but are there any new camera's up there? for launch viewing.
No word on that yet. But cameras will definitely be installed to record lightning strikes
http://blogs.nasa.gov/cm/blog/Ares%20I-X.blog/posts/post_1232655065972.html
This Blog also states that wires will be attached from Tower 1 to 2 for the Ares I-X launch.
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Well, just to give you an idea, they are currently scheduled to begin taking down the wires and FSS lightning mast next week. Will be bringing a big crane on to the pad surface next week, but obviously not one of the 21000's scale.
Are they finaly going to remove the old crane equipment room like they did years ago at pad A?
Haven't heard about it, but I imagine that would stay on the tower until it's demolished so the cost can be rolled into the demo contract. Just my thoughts.
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For that matter, what's the point of getting rid of the FSS lightning mast? Will it draw strikes away from the new one?
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The way I read it is that the cable it supports has to come down, otherwise it gets in the way of lifting the cables that will be strung between the new towers. You could probably work out a way of leaving it up but it would cost time and money now and, to maintain it, in the future and the cable is redundant anyway.
Once you have a crane in place to remove the cable you might as well remove the, relatively light, tower as it won't cost much more and leaving it in place means you have to check and maintain it.
The old machinery room however is much bigger and lower and therefore relitively structurally sound and so can be more easily effectively 'abandoned in place'. Which is good because it would require a larger crane and more money and time (which potentially cause problems for both Constellation and the Shuttle) to remove right now. Removing it when you have the heavy lifting and cutting people in to remove the rest of the Service Structures makes more sense in terms of both time and money.
Rick
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Couple weeks ago, I visited Canaveral National Seashore and saw the lightning masts (third one incomplete at the time with the crane at full extension). Thanks to Ron's aerial photos, a question of mine has been answered, namely, how are those situated around the pad.
However, I now have a second question. I note that the triangle formed by the three towers is off-center with respect to the launch pad. What's the reason for the asymmetry?
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Available space.
Pad 39B is becoming a very congested place.
Remember they have to leave space for the roller coaster emergency escape system.
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Available space.
Pad 39B is becoming a very congested place.
Remember they have to leave space for the roller coaster emergency escape system.
I forgot about that...man, with all of this clutter, we're never going to be able to see Ares I when it's on the pad! ;)
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Couple weeks ago, I visited Canaveral National Seashore and saw the lightning masts (third one incomplete at the time with the crane at full extension). Thanks to Ron's aerial photos, a question of mine has been answered, namely, how are those situated around the pad.
However, I now have a second question. I note that the triangle formed by the three towers is off-center with respect to the launch pad. What's the reason for the asymmetry?
Although the towers are not arranged as an equilateral triangle, they are located on the vertices of an isosceles triangle. The axis of symmetry of this triangle does pass through the center of the launch pad.
Location of the towers (detailed site plans are posted on the L2 section of the forum) seems to suggest that they are located to avoid existing facilities and elevated contours within the site.
Hope this helps.
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The way I read it is that the cable it supports has to come down, otherwise it gets in the way of lifting the cables that will be strung between the new towers. You could probably work out a way of leaving it up but it would cost time and money now and, to maintain it, in the future and the cable is redundant anyway.
Once you have a crane in place to remove the cable you might as well remove the, relatively light, tower as it won't cost much more and leaving it in place means you have to check and maintain it.
The old machinery room however is much bigger and lower and therefore relitively structurally sound and so can be more easily effectively 'abandoned in place'. Which is good because it would require a larger crane and more money and time (which potentially cause problems for both Constellation and the Shuttle) to remove right now. Removing it when you have the heavy lifting and cutting people in to remove the rest of the Service Structures makes more sense in terms of both time and money.
Rick
An image of a crane at Pad 39B is captured on the KSC Video Feed
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the crane seems to have been raised, also cleaned up the image:
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From the looks of it what we are seeing is the lowered Flying Jib in front of the Main Boom. You can see that the hauling cable and some stay cables are closer to the camera than the truss-work and that you see the main cable again behind the truss-work
Think of it as the boom being bent in the middle, in an inverted V.
And it sounds like I was wrong about the machinery – but then if the best crane to remove the mast has the capacity to take away the machinery, or the extra cost is marginal, then you take away the machinery
BTW I think I remember reading elsewhere on the site that the Hammerhead Crane was, apart from construction work, originally used to lift required items on and off the MLP during the launch campaign . I suspect that the Apollo crane was also used similarly and in the first stage of the lift of the Lightning Protection cable to the top of the tower (which had to be done for every launch). Once close to the top you could rig a realisticly short purchase from the tip of the tower to the cable.
As time has gone on mobile cranes have developed into larger and more portable versions and in both the US and the UK it has become both feasible and economically advantageous where lifts are intermittent to hire in mobile cranes as required rather than maintain rarely used static equipment. The crane hire firm is able to spread the maintenance costs over a large number of lifts, and therefore customers. The crane firm is also able to justify holding spares for the vehicles and spare vehicles so the risk of critical lifts not taking place on time is mitigated. Finally crane operation is a specialist skill that is expensive to maintain – so hiring the operator with the crane makes sense.
Hence the retirement of the Hammerhead.
Similar factors apply to other construction plant which is why fewer and fewer of the smaller firms use their own plant. They are also able to get up to date equipment and get access to rarely used specialist plant. If they own their own plant it will often be a transporter to move on-hire plant between jobs or reduce the transport charges from the Plant Hire firm. (Obviously the very big firms are in a different situation.)
Rick
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Seems work on the FSS has begun:
Edit up close view of the FSS extension, wonder what is going to happen to it:
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The FSS lightning mast at 39B has been removed
http://mediaarchive.ksc.nasa.gov/search.cfm?cat=4
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That is one funky looking launch tower without the lightning mast.
I look forward to seeing those 3 lightning towers when I visit Florida for the STS-125 launch.
Edited to add: Where will this lightning mast end up? Might it go to the KSC visitor center display? I think that's what I'd do if I were in charge, unless there's someplace it can still be used. It is after all, a (small) piece of history.
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Mount it on the pre-fabbed extention tower that was to be used at 39-B FSS, but mount all of this at the KSC Visitors Center - as a functional display - cantenary wires and all protecting the Visitors Center, instead of scrapping everything.
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Sorry to break the bad news, but they cut it up into 3 pieces and hauled to the scrap yard yesterday from what we were told. Sorry guys :(
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Noooooooooo, and I my bid on Ebay was winning!! ;) It'd of looked great on top of York Minster Cathedral, here....
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Noooooooooo, and I my bid on Ebay was winning!! ;) It'd of looked great on top of York Minster Cathedral, here....
Even with the Fixed Service Structure and Rotating Service Structure at Pad B still there, the absense of the lightning mast seems to take so much away from the images of Pad B.
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Sorry to break the bad news, but they cut it up into 3 pieces and hauled to the scrap yard yesterday from what we were told. Sorry guys :(
Daggummit.... Oh well - it was good then to see it all in person 2 weeks back... I should have hooked up with you too padrat - have a couple of brews down at Port Canav...........
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Mount it on the pre-fabbed extention tower that was to be used at 39-B FSS, but mount all of this at the KSC Visitors Center - as a functional display - cantenary wires and all protecting the Visitors Center, instead of scrapping everything.
It should've been displayed in the Rocket Garden or near the Shuttle Launch Experience building ;D
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Or reused for the lightning masts in 39A ;)
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Noooooooooo, and I my bid on Ebay was winning!! ;) It'd of looked great on top of York Minster Cathedral, here....
Lets not forget 39A...
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Was out there today. Really is shocking to see the transformation in person. The pictures here, as great and as appreciated as they are, do not do the sight justice.
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SHUTTLE LIGHTNING MAST REMOVED FROM KENNEDY LAUNCH PAD
http://www.space-multimedia.nl.eu.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4737
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Hey Chris, you're still in luck! The mast is still on the pad surface. And it's already in sizeable pieces for you to ship! 3, to be exact. Wish I didn't forget my camera today, there are a few pieces of the hammerhead there as well. Hopefully they don't start hauling it away until after I work on Sun. Going to bring camera in and try to shoot over to B to get a few photos before Countdown kicks off.
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And it won't be long before Obama puts the ABANDON IN PLACE placards on the towers....
You've evidently missed that class in school where they teach you how the U.S. government works. You also missed the media reports that say CxP is still the plan.
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Although more than a tad off topic...
This is why Chris is so keen to use the Mast on the Minster:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/northyorkshire/content/articles/2005/10/03/minster_fire_events_ilny_feature.shtml
http://www.bbc.co.uk/northyorkshire/content/image_galleries/minster_fire_gallery.shtml
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/witness/july/9/newsid_3857000/3857779.stm
People tend to object to buildings that date substantially from the 1250s (with bits from 740) burning down.
Getting even further off topic - even though I'm not a Christian I approve of the Archbishop, lets hope he would approve of the mast.
http://www.yorkminster.org/worship/archbishop/
Anyways - we return you to your on-topic reading...
Addendum: I also approve of this :)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/northyorkshire/content/image_galleries/minster_fire_gallery.shtml?36
Rick
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Yep, freak lightning storm. As kid it was one of the most frightening things I've lived through (and that includes accidentally watching American Idol during channel hopping). The storm was horrendous (don't laugh those of you that get hurricanes) and the orange glow from the fire dominated the skyline. End of the world stuff.
Nice work with the CGI, GW :) And Padrat....no need to ship, I'll come over and pick it up personally..........please! :)
Oh and off topic too, but relevant to the Americans here. Where that arrow is pointing on my image is actually a flag pole (the new lightning protection system is literally the roof now). And for a 1000 years or so they've always flown either the Union Jack or the English St George (depending on what era it was).
On the evening of 9/11 there was an impromptu gathering that built to around 10,000 by the time word got out, and someone - we think the Deacon - decided to fly the Stars and Stripes from that very flag pole, and at full mast as a sign of defiance. Remember, this is a Gothic Cathedral, one of the biggest in the world, that took 250 years just to build it. That was a big deal.
Remember one of the Army regulars who I saw there and he came over and said "we're off to war"...and he's just completed his third tour of Afghanistan. Never known such an emotionally charged evening.
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I'd like to see a photo of the Stars and Stripes flying from that Cathedral...
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Looks like the hammerhead is gone:
http://mediaarchive.ksc.nasa.gov/search.cfm?cat=4
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I'd like to see a photo of the Stars and Stripes flying from that Cathedral...
Well, it's not technically a Cathedral but NASA did put the Stars and Stripes on the top of the South-West Lightening Tower at LC-39B.
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Won't that flag pole now be the primary lightening attractor -- at least for that tower?
Ross.
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I've posted a few pics (http://www.collectspace.com/ubb/Forum30/HTML/000776.html#dispose) of the lightning mast's removal from Pad 39B. At least one segment was removed during the time the media was at the pad for the Ares I-X tour yesterday.
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Won't that flag pole now be the primary lightening attractor -- at least for that tower?
Ross.
Actually that brings up a really good question.
The fiberglass pole is actually supposed to be a lightning INSULATOR. It is there to seperate the catenary wires from the structure of the towers so any charge folows the wires to ground.
So what happens right now if they get a lightning storm. does the top of the steel tower where the pole attaches get hit and does that damage something?
inquiring minds want to know...
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So what happens right now if they get a lightning storm. does the top of the steel tower where the pole attaches get hit and does that damage something?
Probably and Possibly (but less of a risk of it being critical than if the Service Structure were hit) – unless the Big Crane gets hit.
Ultimate Disaster would be if a tower were structurally damaged and fell the wrong way... but I expect the margins are OK if they are happy with leaving one tower without a cable for Ares 1-X and all three up to now.
Best get that cable up.
Rick
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Won't that flag pole now be the primary lightening attractor -- at least for that tower?
It doesn't seem that good an idea -- unless you're into flag burning... :P
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WOW...great snag! Was that during the storms this morning/afternoon?
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WOW...great snag! Was that during the storms this morning/afternoon?
Yes.
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The fiberglass pole is actually supposed to be a lightning INSULATOR. It is there to seperate the catenary wires from the structure of the towers so any charge folows the wires to ground.
So what happens right now if they get a lightning storm. does the top of the steel tower where the pole attaches get hit and does that damage something?
The towers are surely bonded to a grounding electrode system at their base designed to route any flashover current directly to the ground. "Damage" from a lightning strike to such a massive, well-grounded structure should hardly be noticeable. Radio and TV antenna towers are struck all the time with infrequent damage.
- Ed Kyle