Author Topic: Relativity Space - Terran R  (Read 129503 times)

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Relativity Space - Terran R
« Reply #420 on: 05/10/2023 08:41 pm »

Offline AU1.52

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Re: Relativity Space - Terran R
« Reply #421 on: 05/10/2023 09:03 pm »

Offline Conexion Espacial

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Re: Relativity Space - Terran R
« Reply #422 on: 05/18/2023 05:37 pm »
Cross-Post:
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1659237702380802049
Quote
The integrated Cruise Vehicle, Entry Capsule, and Mars Lander developed by Impulse Space will launch in 2026 on the Relativity Terran R launch vehicle. After traveling through interplanetary space for over half a year, the Cruise Vehicle will inject the Entry Capsule into the correct landing trajectory and detach. The Entry Capsule will use the proven combination of heatshield and parachute to slow down enough to safely deploy the Mars Lander into freefall. The lander will then perform a propulsive landing using purpose-built engines developed in-house at Impulse Space, completing the first commercial payload delivery to the surface of another planet.https://www.impulsespace.com/mars
I publish information in Spanish about space and rockets.
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Offline Skye Wang

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Re: Relativity Space - Terran R
« Reply #423 on: 05/19/2023 07:06 am »

If Terran R is successful, would its much smaller size compared to starship, mean that re-entry of the upperstage will be easier?
And do we know what they are printing the tank from (steel, titanium aluminium)?

They use proprietary scandium-aluminum alloys for 3D printing the tankage.

This was surprising to me. A quick bit of research shows scandium content in Al alloys at .01-.05%, and a price per kilo of $15,000 for nearly pure metal. If the tankage for Terran R will be ~18,000kg, does the scandium content alone come to ~$800,000?

The number I came up with is naive, does anyone have an educated guess as to the cost of this material? Iterations add up if material is a million dollars per print.

If my guess is close, material cost for 3D printed rockets is in carbon fiber territory, maybe times two?
Assuming they're alloying themselves rather than contracting an Aluminium producer to make it, Scandium Oxide (highly refined scandium metal not necessary) prices are more in the $1k-$4k per kg range.


It was great to learn that scandium-aluminum alloys are used in 3D printing. But I think people's understanding of scandium, especially the cost & supply, is quite different and even biased. I think as the largest Scandium manufacturer in China, we Hunan Oriental Scandium can provide more real information about Scandium.

First of all, the cost of scandium in 2023 is not as high as everyone imagined. The price of high-purity scandium oxide is around 1K$. At present, most scandium is extracted from the waste acid from the production of titanium dioxide. Since the stability of demand for titanium dioxide products ensures the production capacity of titanium dioxide, the extraction of scandium is also very stable. Even because the market demand is not large enough and the production capacity has not been fully released, more scandium can actually be produced, and the cost can be further reduced. Our capacity for scandium oxide is over 30 tons per year.

Second, the production of scandium-containing aluminum alloys does not need to use expensive scandium metal. Generally, low-purity of scandium oxide (its price is lower than that of high-purity scandium oxide) is used to make an Aluminum-Scandium master alloy containing 2% scandium, and then some other elements such as zinc, zirconium, magnesium, and other elements are added to make alloy ingots or alloy plates, and finally 3D printing materials (wire or powder) are made by some processing methods. In this way, the cost of 3D printing material will not be too high, and the weight reduction by using high-performance aluminum material can also save energy costs. In summary, for aerospace applications, the cost of using scandium-containing aluminum alloys is definitely acceptable otherwise they will not use it when it doesn't make sense.

Thirdly, we have produced scandium oxide since 2011 and witnessed that the price of aluminum-scandium2% master alloy dropped from $100/kg or even higher ten years ago, to less than $55/kg now. More and more fields are applying scandium-containing aluminum alloys in large quantities, especially in the aerospace field.

At present, we are also attempting to develop scandium-containing aluminum alloy materials for 3D printing. Welcome to contact us if you are interested.

Re: Relativity Space - Terran R
« Reply #424 on: 05/31/2023 11:33 pm »
Relativity has stated they have about 1.2 billion in launch backlog for Terran R, so at this price thats probably around 25 launches.

https://twitter.com/thesheetztweetz/status/1664014155827773443?s=20

Quote
Jefferies analysts, after a recent meeting with Relativity leadership, note the Terran R rocket has an implied price of $55 million per launch, although early customers "signed at a discounted rate" of ~$45 million.

Offline PM3

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Re: Relativity Space - Terran R
« Reply #425 on: 06/01/2023 07:40 am »
Relativity has stated they have about 1.2 billion in launch backlog for Terran R, so at this price thats probably around 25 launches.

Relativity is claiming since 2018 that they have a 1 billion launch backlog, which now allegedly was shifted from Terran 1 to Terran R. Unfortunately, they were never able to name the customer(s) for most of these launches.

I dont't believe that those billion dollar contracts ever existed. At best there may be some tentative memorandums of understanding. Terran R obviously will never launch, so who would be so mad to build a satellite constellation on this dead horse?
« Last Edit: 06/01/2023 07:44 am by PM3 »
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Online edzieba

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Re: Relativity Space - Terran R
« Reply #426 on: 06/01/2023 07:44 am »
I dont't believe that those launch contracts ever existed.
They've been mentioned in financial filings, so that's a major accusation of fraud to level at them without evidence.

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Relativity Space - Terran R
« Reply #427 on: 06/01/2023 08:17 am »


Relativity has stated they have about 1.2 billion in launch backlog for Terran R, so at this price thats probably around 25 launches.

Relativity is claiming since 2018 that they have a 1 billion launch backlog, which now allegedly was shifted from Terran 1 to Terran R. Unfortunately, they were never able to name the customer(s) for most of these launches.

I dont't believe that those billion dollar contracts ever existed. At best there may be some tentative memorandums of understanding. Terran R obviously will never launch, so who would be so mad to build a satellite constellation on this dead horse?

No risk for constellation owner to book with Relativity as long as they don't pay deposit this far out. There is Firefly MLV, Neutron, F9R, New Glenn and SS if Terran R isn't available.

Offline PM3

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Re: Relativity Space - Terran R
« Reply #428 on: 06/01/2023 08:18 am »
I dont't believe that those launch contracts ever existed.
They've been mentioned in financial filings, so that's a major accusation of fraud to level at them without evidence.

Can you please quote one of these filings? Relativity shares are not listed or traded publicly, so what financials did they file and where?

No risk for constellation owner to book with Relativity as long as they don't pay deposit this far out. There is Firefly MLV, Neutron, F9R, New Glenn and SS if Terran R isn't available.

If there is no risk for the customers, then there is no binding contract between customers and Relativity, which means there is no launch backlog.
« Last Edit: 06/01/2023 08:23 am by PM3 »
"Never, never be afraid of the truth." -- Jim Bridenstine

Offline trimeta

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Re: Relativity Space - Terran R
« Reply #429 on: 06/01/2023 03:42 pm »
No risk for constellation owner to book with Relativity as long as they don't pay deposit this far out. There is Firefly MLV, Neutron, F9R, New Glenn and SS if Terran R isn't available.
If there is no risk for the customers, then there is no binding contract between customers and Relativity, which means there is no launch backlog.
I think this is where the exact definition of "launch contract" may be important to clarify. It seems likely to me that Relativity legitimately has Memoranda of Understanding with customers, and those customers would gladly fly on Terran R if they get the promised prices. But it also seems like those customers put little to no money down. So those customers can go somewhere else with little downside if someone else is available much earlier. Although they probably aren't getting a better deal elsewhere: Rocket Lab seems determined to sell Neutron launches for no less than $50M, $5M more than the pre-sale price of Terran R, despite Neutron being less capable than Terran R.

Offline Lampyridae

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Re: Relativity Space - Terran R
« Reply #430 on: 06/01/2023 03:53 pm »
No risk for constellation owner to book with Relativity as long as they don't pay deposit this far out. There is Firefly MLV, Neutron, F9R, New Glenn and SS if Terran R isn't available.
If there is no risk for the customers, then there is no binding contract between customers and Relativity, which means there is no launch backlog.
I think this is where the exact definition of "launch contract" may be important to clarify. It seems likely to me that Relativity legitimately has Memoranda of Understanding with customers, and those customers would gladly fly on Terran R if they get the promised prices. But it also seems like those customers put little to no money down. So those customers can go somewhere else with little downside if someone else is available much earlier. Although they probably aren't getting a better deal elsewhere: Rocket Lab seems determined to sell Neutron launches for no less than $50M, $5M more than the pre-sale price of Terran R, despite Neutron being less capable than Terran R.

This is my view on it as well. Yes, I think didn't plan to actually go through with those flights, but it would have been based off of a series of decisions. If flight 1 blew up on the pad, they'd probably go through flights 2, 3, 4 etc to iron out the bugs and the customers were also risking their payloads on unproven hardware. The customers may have gotten a flight, or they may have gotten a doomed rocket, so they were willing to take gambles. This way, they have intact payloads that they can consider launching elsewhere (also some payloads are more learning & development exercises, like university cubesats). I don't think a deposit was paid, and the customers' insurance for those payloads must have been hefty.

As for the cost per launch... those can be whatever the service provider wants to price it at. SpaceX is likely only costing something like $15m a launch. Relativity could be deliberately pitching a lower cost to claw in against an established launch provider and hoping they'll make the difference up with future sales / funding rounds. There's also the matter of fattening up startups for eventual sale.
« Last Edit: 06/01/2023 03:55 pm by Lampyridae »

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Relativity Space - Terran R
« Reply #431 on: 06/01/2023 04:01 pm »
Neutron is still on schedule too fly 2years earlier than Terran R so pricing difference won't matter until Terran R is flying. By which time RL would be in position to lower its prices especially for bulk launch contracts.


Re: Relativity Space - Terran R
« Reply #432 on: 06/02/2023 03:01 am »
Relativity has stated they have about 1.2 billion in launch backlog for Terran R, so at this price thats probably around 25 launches.

Relativity is claiming since 2018 that they have a 1 billion launch backlog, which now allegedly was shifted from Terran 1 to Terran R. Unfortunately, they were never able to name the customer(s) for most of these launches.

I dont't believe that those billion dollar contracts ever existed. At best there may be some tentative memorandums of understanding. Terran R obviously will never launch, so who would be so mad to build a satellite constellation on this dead horse?

I guess its more now :p
https://twitter.com/thetimellis/status/1664447822710857730?s=20

Quote
Been pretty heads down and busy after launch - now working on our next phase of development and setting the stage for Terran R. Some solid development progress by the team, hardware continuing to ramp up, especially now with complete focus on a singular product to deliver on our $1.65B (and growing!) in contracts across 7 signed customers. I just walked by Aeon R engine chamber 009 today!
« Last Edit: 06/02/2023 03:01 am by spacenuance »

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Relativity Space - Terran R
« Reply #433 on: 06/02/2023 07:16 am »
twitter.com/24tkohler/status/1664449667206111232

Quote
Tim, why the switch to a more traditional rocket for Terran-R?

https://twitter.com/thetimellis/status/1664451688579870720

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It’s not super traditional, only the straight barrel sections aren’t printed. This rocket is pushing additive tech farther than Terran 1 did in many ways.

twitter.com/derekdotspace/status/1664449900736823296

Quote
How are things looking for the first Aeon-R full engine static fire? Still expecting it to happen this year?

https://twitter.com/thetimellis/status/1664451489258164224

Quote
Yes, it’s tracking!

Online edzieba

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Re: Relativity Space - Terran R
« Reply #434 on: 06/02/2023 08:17 am »
Quote from: Tim Ellis
only the straight barrel sections aren’t printed
Hard to get more direct and explicit than that. Though I suspect the usual suspects will still continue to claim otherwise.

Offline john smith 19

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Re: Relativity Space - Terran R
« Reply #435 on: 06/03/2023 08:14 am »
Quote from: Tim Ellis
only the straight barrel sections aren’t printed
Hard to get more direct and explicit than that. Though I suspect the usual suspects will still continue to claim otherwise.
Indeed. And TBH those parts were the ones that were a)Strucuturally the simplest b)Had the most area.
IOW they always made the least sense to mfg using AM.

There are (and have been for some time) multiple ways to make seamless barrel sections, including integral stiffners in a variety of materials from aluminium alloys to FRP (with the F being anything from carbon to glass or IIRC hemp). For aluminum "ring forging" can be to at least 5m dia and at least 1m wide. Centrifugal casting can go to 8m and considerably longer.

That is of course if you're that worried about the strength of longitudial joints and/or the mass addition due to "doublers" at the weld to begin with.  :( Given the Shuttle era ET had someting like a 1/2 mile of welds this is not an insignificant mass. OTOH  FSW has been quiet a game changer in this area.
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 TBC. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

Online edzieba

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Re: Relativity Space - Terran R
« Reply #436 on: 06/03/2023 08:50 am »
With the new horizontal printer layout and 'in from a side' arm access for the weld head, they could mount a sheet-formed ring to the printer bed and print an isogrid/orthogrid/etc onto the inside of the barrels directly.

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Relativity Space - Terran R
« Reply #437 on: 06/03/2023 08:23 pm »


Quote from: Tim Ellis
only the straight barrel sections aren’t printed
Hard to get more direct and explicit than that. Though I suspect the usual suspects will still continue to claim otherwise.
Indeed. And TBH those parts were the ones that were a)Strucuturally the simplest b)Had the most area.
IOW they always made the least sense to mfg using AM.

There are (and have been for some time) multiple ways to make seamless barrel sections, including integral stiffners in a variety of materials from aluminium alloys to FRP (with the F being anything from carbon to glass or IIRC hemp). For aluminum "ring forging" can be to at least 5m dia and at least 1m wide. Centrifugal casting can go to 8m and considerably longer.

That is of course if you're that worried about the strength of longitudial joints and/or the mass addition due to "doublers" at the weld to begin with.  :( Given the Shuttle era ET had someting like a 1/2 mile of welds this is not an insignificant mass. OTOH  FSW has been quiet a game changer in this area.

FSW?
FRP?

Offline Solarsail

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Re: Relativity Space - Terran R
« Reply #438 on: 06/03/2023 08:57 pm »

FSW?
FRP?

Friction Stir Welding (which SpaceX uses on Falcon 9)
Fiber Reinforced Polymer (Carbon Fiber, Fiberglass, etc.)

Offline XRZ.YZ

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Re: Relativity Space - Terran R
« Reply #439 on: 06/03/2023 09:18 pm »
In worst case, you ask your friend to setup a shell company and sign whatever contract you want.
And you can claim whatever backlog to your investor.
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