Author Topic: ISS Museum  (Read 5620 times)

Offline ValmirGP

ISS Museum
« on: 09/13/2018 02:50 pm »
I looked briefly around and did not found anything of this sort so will put it here. MODs, as usual,  are free to dispose as seen fit.

I've been wondering lately that with the End Of Life for ISS approaching, and the most likely scenario is for it to be dumped in the big pond, that this would be a massive loss for history.
So I ask: being it the greatest human enterprise to date, would it be feasible to push it to a Lagrangian Point so that it would be hanging there forever and future generations would be able to visit it someday as if it was a giant shipwreck, just this one in space? You know we all hope that eventually we will have the technology to make leisure space travels. It wold be very cool.
Being on the subject, if you found it feasible, what sort of kick stage would need to be developed to push it there?

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 37439
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 21448
  • Likes Given: 428
Re: ISS Museum
« Reply #1 on: 09/13/2018 03:00 pm »
Not feasible.   Too much propellant would be required (millions of pounds).  Also, the ISS can't be just left at any point in space.   It takes propellant and power to keep it stable.  Also, it is not designed to operate outside of LEO.
« Last Edit: 09/13/2018 03:01 pm by Jim »

Offline whitelancer64

Re: ISS Museum
« Reply #2 on: 09/13/2018 03:10 pm »
The biggest issue is that if a rocket were attached to the ISS to launch it up to a high orbit, lunar orbit, or Lagrange point, the ISS would simply break apart. It's not designed to handle the loads it would impart. So "why not do it slowly, like they do to boost the orbit?" surely you'd say. Well that means it's traveling through the Van Allen belts for a long period of time. That would wreck all the electronics in the ISS.

Oh. I suppose if its functionality doesn't matter, if it's just for a "space museum" display that will just be looked at from the outside, that'd be fine.

If you can rustle up the money to do it before the ISS is deorbited, go ahead. I don't think you'll be able to, though.
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
"There are lies, damned lies, and launch schedules." - Larry J

Offline ValmirGP

Re: ISS Museum
« Reply #3 on: 09/13/2018 03:19 pm »
Not feasible.   Too much propellant would be required (millions of pounds).  Also, the ISS can't be just left at any point in space.   It takes propellant and power to keep it stable.  Also, it is not designed to operate outside of LEO.

Just to clarify since I did not get the "operate outside of LEO" part. The intention was NOT to keep it running but to keep it left inactive, marooned, even evacuated.

I defer to your knowledge as it not being feasible, but enlighten me if you please: I was under the impression that once an object is placed on any of the Lagrangian Points it would keep there without further need of energy for position keeping. Have I been mistaken in this assumption?

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 37439
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 21448
  • Likes Given: 428
Re: ISS Museum
« Reply #4 on: 09/13/2018 03:27 pm »

Just to clarify since I did not get the "operate outside of LEO" part. The intention was NOT to keep it running but to keep it left inactive, marooned, even evacuated.

I defer to your knowledge as it not being feasible, but enlighten me if you please: I was under the impression that once an object is placed on any of the Lagrangian Points it would keep there without further need of energy for position keeping. Have I been mistaken in this assumption?

It needs to be kept stable or else it would start spinning and parts would come off.

Offline ValmirGP

Re: ISS Museum
« Reply #5 on: 09/13/2018 03:38 pm »
The biggest issue is that if a rocket were attached to the ISS to launch it up to a high orbit, lunar orbit, or Lagrange point, the ISS would simply break apart. It's not designed to handle the loads it would impart. So "why not do it slowly, like they do to boost the orbit?" surely you'd say. Well that means it's traveling through the Van Allen belts for a long period of time. That would wreck all the electronics in the ISS.

Oh. I suppose if its functionality doesn't matter, if it's just for a "space museum" display that will just be looked at from the outside, that'd be fine.

If you can rustle up the money to do it before the ISS is deorbited, go ahead. I don't think you'll be able to, though.

You got the idea right. Don't ask me for the money because sure I would not have :)
Going the slow way you proposed, would something like the much promised VASIMIR test engine that once was supposed to be tested on the station with some hack to have as much argon as it would need do the trick?

We are all speculating here, ok

Offline ValmirGP

Re: ISS Museum
« Reply #6 on: 09/13/2018 03:39 pm »

It needs to be kept stable or else it would start spinning and parts would come off.

Ok. Thanks.

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 37439
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 21448
  • Likes Given: 428
Re: ISS Museum
« Reply #7 on: 09/13/2018 03:42 pm »

You got the idea right. Don't ask me for the money because sure I would not have :)
Going the slow way you proposed, would something like the much promised VASIMIR test engine that once was supposed to be tested on the station with some hack to have as much argon as it would need do the trick?


Still talking massive quantities of argon

Offline brickmack

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 975
  • USA
  • Liked: 3273
  • Likes Given: 101
Re: ISS Museum
« Reply #8 on: 09/13/2018 03:59 pm »
With BFR approaching, bringing it back to Earth could be feasibleish (~40 flights, pessimistically 10 million each). It looks like all the modules should fit in the payload bay, though for some of the longer ones it is a bit tight. Robotics and docking clearance would be a bit of a pain with the single-door configuration, but that might not be final. Shuttle-launched modules were designed to be able to come down anyway and have mounting structures that could be reused, other modules would likely need adapters or bolt-on interfaces. Displaying the whole thing as an integrated structure would be hard though.

Offline jpo234

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2021
  • Liked: 2279
  • Likes Given: 2184
Re: ISS Museum
« Reply #9 on: 09/13/2018 06:28 pm »
I looked briefly around and did not found anything of this sort so will put it here. MODs, as usual,  are free to dispose as seen fit.

I've been wondering lately that with the End Of Life for ISS approaching, and the most likely scenario is for it to be dumped in the big pond, that this would be a massive loss for history.
So I ask: being it the greatest human enterprise to date, would it be feasible to push it to a Lagrangian Point so that it would be hanging there forever and future generations would be able to visit it someday as if it was a giant shipwreck, just this one in space? You know we all hope that eventually we will have the technology to make leisure space travels. It wold be very cool.
Being on the subject, if you found it feasible, what sort of kick stage would need to be developed to push it there?
Don't the Russians plan to use their modules in a new station?
You want to be inspired by things. You want to wake up in the morning and think the future is going to be great. That's what being a spacefaring civilization is all about. It's about believing in the future and believing the future will be better than the past. And I can't think of anything more exciting than being out there among the stars.

Offline Zed_Noir

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5469
  • Canada
  • Liked: 1801
  • Likes Given: 1296
Re: ISS Museum
« Reply #10 on: 09/13/2018 08:53 pm »
I looked briefly around and did not found anything of this sort so will put it here. MODs, as usual,  are free to dispose as seen fit.

I've been wondering lately that with the End Of Life for ISS approaching, and the most likely scenario is for it to be dumped in the big pond, that this would be a massive loss for history.
So I ask: being it the greatest human enterprise to date, would it be feasible to push it to a Lagrangian Point so that it would be hanging there forever and future generations would be able to visit it someday as if it was a giant shipwreck, just this one in space? You know we all hope that eventually we will have the technology to make leisure space travels. It wold be very cool.
Being on the subject, if you found it feasible, what sort of kick stage would need to be developed to push it there?
Don't the Russians plan to use their modules in a new station?

The Russians don't have he money for any new space initiative. Think they will be quite happy to unload the old modules for some hard cash, they don't have too much service life left in those old modules.

 :) Somewhat in jest. There is already a sort of giant orbital adjustment module in development. Simply attached a BFS tanker to the ISS and use the BFS's RCS to nudge the ISS to a different orbit. IIRC the RCS is operating with MethoLOX as propellants. Replace the BFS tanker with another when it runs short of propellants.
« Last Edit: 09/14/2018 03:42 am by Zed_Noir »

Offline ValmirGP

Re: ISS Museum
« Reply #11 on: 09/13/2018 09:27 pm »
:) Somewhat in jest. There is already a sort of giant orbital adjustment module in development. Simply attached a BFS tanker to the ISS and use the BFS's RCS to nudge the ISS to a different orbit. IIRC the RCS is operating with MethoLOX as propellants. Replace the BFS tanker with another when it runs short of propellants.

Although it's a fun thought, as Jim and Whitelancer64 have kindly put up-thread, ISS would not cope with this level of stress.

It's sad because  I would love to see this ISS parking done. But I also believe that SpaceX and Elon would hardly care to this job (execept if very well paid) as they are more interested in their Mars plans. But Mr Bezos I think would be supportive of helping some crazy thing like this since he has already demonstrated interest in other historical and cultural preservation projects.

Offline Zed_Noir

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5469
  • Canada
  • Liked: 1801
  • Likes Given: 1296
Re: ISS Museum
« Reply #12 on: 09/13/2018 09:53 pm »
:) Somewhat in jest. There is already a sort of giant orbital adjustment module in development. Simply attached a BFS tanker to the ISS and use the BFS's RCS to nudge the ISS to a different orbit. IIRC the RCS is operating with MethoLOX as propellants. Replace the BFS tanker with another when it runs short of propellants.

Although it's a fun thought, as Jim and Whitelancer64 have kindly put up-thread, ISS would not cope with this level of stress.
<snip>
What stress? We talking about a fractional meter per second acceleration with a small RCS thruster not the large Atmospheric steering thrusters never mind the main BFS engines.


Offline Rik ISS-fan

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1515
  • the Netherlands
  • Liked: 612
  • Likes Given: 211
Re: ISS Museum
« Reply #13 on: 09/13/2018 10:31 pm »
In my oppinion the ISS should be ditched at the end of it's servicelive. It's far to expansive and dangerous to keep it in orbit.
But, I think that possibly several presurised modules can be reused for a ISS2 or Commercial space station. (I think this is at least the third time this topic comes up.)
AFAIK the ISS core is FGB, Node1, the full truss; and US Lab Destiny.
I think Node 2, Node 3, PMM, KIBO (JAXA lab), Columbus (EU LAB) [Bishop & Bartolomeo) could be reused. Possibly with two new modules a new core can be created. But this is off topic.
ISS can NOT be preserved as museum in my oppinion. The legacy of the ISS are the scientific results, the ISS will have been a 0G laboratory for >30years when the program ends.

Late edit to add; I read in the ISS R&D2018; GOLD2 external payload interface that the ISS is only designed for 0,2G. Afaik this means that only 0,2 m/s2 asselerations are allowed.
Besides the only stable orbits are MEO, GEO, HEO and around the sun. You can view the ISS from the ground  because of it's size and low orbit. Besides being technically  and financially very complicated. I don't see any usefulness in preserving the  ISS on orbit. At higher orbits you can't see it from the ground. The only thing that can happen is a massive debris creation event.
That's the reason I prefere a ditching event.
« Last Edit: 09/14/2018 05:31 am by Rik ISS-fan »

Offline brickmack

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 975
  • USA
  • Liked: 3273
  • Likes Given: 101
Re: ISS Museum
« Reply #14 on: 09/14/2018 02:12 am »
Don't the Russians plan to use their modules in a new station?

No. They had a vague proposal years ago. And even that would've used zero existing hardware, only future Russian modules (Nauka, Prichal, NEM). Whats up there now is all nearing the end of its design life and not technically compatible with the future systems Russia plans

Offline speedevil

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4406
  • Fife
  • Liked: 2762
  • Likes Given: 3369
Re: ISS Museum
« Reply #15 on: 09/14/2018 03:25 am »
So I ask: being it the greatest human enterprise to date, would it be feasible to push it to a Lagrangian Point so that it would be hanging there forever and future generations would be able to visit it someday as if it was a giant shipwreck, just this one in space? You know we all hope that eventually we will have the technology to make leisure space travels. It wold be very cool.
Being on the subject, if you found it feasible, what sort of kick stage would need to be developed to push it there?

In principle, a refilled BFS (IAC2017) can do this, slowly, refilled once.
It needs around 1100 tons of propellant, and may need an additional tanker flight in order to get 440 tons to boost to a Lagrangian point, for around 7 or 8 total launches.

The typical reboost acceleration of 4cm/s^2 means that it would naively take around a day. However, thrusting only during a small fraction of the orbit only is required for reasonable efficiency so the effective acceleration is 1cm/s for some time.

You'd be at L1 around three weeks after initiating the  manoever.
 ISS is obviously not designed for the situation it will find itself in, and may require solar shades or reflectors of some form.

Keeping it operating medium term, even if lift to it was free would take moderate investment.

The other 'but why' questions raised above are reasonable, but it's not going to explode or fall apart with appropriate acceleration.

Offline deruch

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2422
  • California
  • Liked: 2006
  • Likes Given: 5634
Re: ISS Museum
« Reply #16 on: 09/14/2018 03:25 pm »
So I ask: being it the greatest human enterprise to date, would it be feasible to push it to a Lagrangian Point so that it would be hanging there forever and future generations would be able to visit it someday as if it was a giant shipwreck, just this one in space? You know we all hope that eventually we will have the technology to make leisure space travels. It wold be very cool.
Being on the subject, if you found it feasible, what sort of kick stage would need to be developed to push it there?

In principle, a refilled BFS (IAC2017) can do this, slowly, refilled once.
It needs around 1100 tons of propellant, and may need an additional tanker flight in order to get 440 tons to boost to a Lagrangian point, for around 7 or 8 total launches.

The typical reboost acceleration of 4cm/s^2 means that it would naively take around a day. However, thrusting only during a small fraction of the orbit only is required for reasonable efficiency so the effective acceleration is 1cm/s for some time.

You'd be at L1 around three weeks after initiating the  manoever.
 ISS is obviously not designed for the situation it will find itself in, and may require solar shades or reflectors of some form.

Keeping it operating medium term, even if lift to it was free would take moderate investment.

The other 'but why' questions raised above are reasonable, but it's not going to explode or fall apart with appropriate acceleration.

Also, L1 and L2 aren't stable orbits, you actually orbit around the point rather than sit on it, and they require active station keeping to remain there.  Putting a derelict ISS in one of those isn't going to be effective if the goal is to keep it in a place where it "won't move" much.  So, all in all, it'd have to be L4 or L5.
Shouldn't reality posts be in "Advanced concepts"?  --Nomadd

Offline su27k

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6414
  • Liked: 9098
  • Likes Given: 885
Re: ISS Museum
« Reply #17 on: 06/08/2022 02:41 am »
International Space Station ‘should become a museum 500 miles above Earth’

Quote from: thetimes.co.uk
After three decades of service, the International Space Station is due to be retired in 2031 on a final journey in which it will burn fiercely in the atmosphere before plunging into the sea.

However, leaders in the space industry have proposed a way to save a collaboration that has received more than $100 billion (£80 billion) in funding.

Instead of a “death sentence”, the station should be preserved as a beacon of human inventiveness, according to Greg Autry, a senior space strategy adviser to President Trump and then the White House liaison for Nasa.

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
1