China's space program

[NovaSilisko]

I had not seen this pics before

http://bbs.miercn.com/201309/thread_224318_1_2.html

... is that first one from Moonbase Alpha?

[Borklund]

I had not seen this pics before

http://bbs.miercn.com/201309/thread_224318_1_2.html

... is that first one from Moonbase Alpha?

It appears to be an amalgamation of a lander from somewhere, a 3D lunar landscape generated from LRO pictures and taikonauts (astronauts) from Moonbase Alpha, yes. Astounding.

[manboy]

I had not seen this pics before

http://bbs.miercn.com/201309/thread_224318_1_2.html

These are photoshopped U.S. concepts...

Yep. All they did was replace the American flags.

Even their old space station concept was stolen from an ISS promotional rendering.

[manboy]

I had not seen this pics before

http://bbs.miercn.com/201309/thread_224318_1_2.html

... is that first one from Moonbase Alpha?

It appears to be an amalgamation of a lander from somewhere, a 3D lunar landscape generated from LRO pictures and taikonauts (astronauts) from Moonbase Alpha, yes. Astounding.

Yep.

http://images.g4tv.com/ImageDb3/244022_l/moonbase-alpha-screenshots.jpg

[Lars_J]

I had not seen this pics before

http://bbs.miercn.com/201309/thread_224318_1_2.html

These are photoshopped U.S. concepts...

Yep. All they did was replace the American flags.

Even their old space station concept was stolen from an ISS promotional rendering.

Ha! That's funny.

[M129K]

I had not seen this pics before

http://bbs.miercn.com/201309/thread_224318_1_2.html

These are photoshopped U.S. concepts...

Yep. All they did was replace the American flags.

Even their old space station concept was stolen from an ISS promotional rendering.

It's not like they're trying to fight the stereotypes.

[Steven Pietrobon]

At the International Space University Southern Hemisphere Summer Space Program being held here in Adelaide there are quite a few students from China who work in the Chinese space program. I got to talking with the Chinese person responsible for international collaboration in their crewed space program. Some of the answers I got were the following. This is from memory, so there might be some mistakes.

Tian Gong 2 will have only one docking port. They consider Tian Gong to be more of a space lab, then a space station. The large modular space station will have a different name. The main purpose of Tian Gong 2 will be to test the docking and fuel transfer of a supply vehicle. Longer crewed missions are expected, perhaps from one to three months. They are considering having Tian Gong 2 crewed for the supply vehicle docking, but there are safety risks involved as Shenzhou can't be docked at the same time.

For Shenzhou 10 last year there was a lot of discussion as to whether to fly the mission. They are happy they did so, as they learnt quite a few things.

If Chang'e 3 is successful, they won't fly Chang'e 4.

A decision for a Lunar crewed program won't be made until after the modular station has been built and been operating for a number of years. Perhaps a decision will be made in 2025 or 2030.

The European astronauts are learning Chinese. International astronauts are expected for the modular space station.

[simpl simon]

Thanks for the useful news, Steven - good work!

ESA and CNSA are indeed actively cooperating in the area of astronaut training. There have been reciprocal astronaut visits to training facilities.

Are any of the presentations being posted online, do you know, or can you obtain copies of them?

Can you find out anything more about the architecture of the modular space station? Do the Chinese expect each module to bring its own power supply, or will they provide a centralised power supply like the ISS USOS? How serious are the images of the station that have appeared online so far?

We hear a lot about international cooperation in the Chinese space station program but is anything really happening? Could you find out if the Chinese are planning a series of symposia to discuss international proposals for participation in the modular space station program?

By the way, following their success with Chang'e the Chinese are now taking an active role in ISECG discussions. The next ISECG meeting is planned for May in Beijing.

[Phillip Clark]

Thank you for the above Steven.   There some very interesting things in there on both the manned and unmanned programmes.   Maybe if Yutu cannot be revived they will decide to fly Chang'e 4  to see if they can get a longer operating time on the Moon.   Also, a slight disappointment that the committment for a manned lunar programme seems to be a decade away.   But, things might change on that front.

[luhai167]

I had not seen this pics before

http://bbs.miercn.com/201309/thread_224318_1_2.html

These are photoshopped U.S. concepts...

Yep. All they did was replace the American flags.

Even their old space station concept was stolen from an ISS promotional rendering.

considering miercn is the Chinese equivalent of strategypage, I'm not surprised.

[manboy]

I had not seen this pics before

http://bbs.miercn.com/201309/thread_224318_1_2.html

These are photoshopped U.S. concepts...

Yep. All they did was replace the American flags.

Even their old space station concept was stolen from an ISS promotional rendering.

considering miercn is the Chinese equivalent of strategypage, I'm not surprised.

It's also being used on CNSA's official website.

http://www.cmse.gov.cn/system/

http://en.cmse.gov.cn/list.php?catid=64

[Steven Pietrobon]

Are any of the presentations being posted online, do you know, or can you obtain copies of them?

That information came from questions I asked. There was no presentation.

Can you find out anything more about the architecture of the modular space station? Do the Chinese expect each module to bring its own power supply, or will they provide a centralised power supply like the ISS USOS? How serious are the images of the station that have appeared online so far?

We hear a lot about international cooperation in the Chinese space station program but is anything really happening? Could you find out if the Chinese are planning a series of symposia to discuss international proposals for participation in the modular space station program?

If I meet up again, I'll try to ask those questions.

[Blackstar]

1-If Chang'e 3 is successful, they won't fly Chang'e 4.

2-A decision for a Lunar crewed program won't be made until after the modular station has been built and been operating for a number of years. Perhaps a decision will be made in 2025 or 2030.

3-The European astronauts are learning Chinese.

Thanks for that info. It makes quite a bit of sense, actually.

1-Surprising that they were not expecting to fly CE-4 no matter what. You'd think that they would want the experience. The more wheel turns that they can get on any planetary body, the better. Rover experience would set them up for an eventual Mars rover. With Yutu possibly out of commission, I would expect them to fly CE-4.

2-That's what I've always expected. They have been very consistent for a long time about their space station plans. It always made sense for them to start doing preliminary studies of rockets and architectures long in advance of any decision. And it makes sense for them to get one development project finished, and some experience under their belts, before making a decision about another one.

3-This is worth checking. What European astronauts? Those are questions to be posed to ESA ("Are any of your astronaut candidates learning Chinese?") I could see a Chinese official claiming this but it being more wishful thinking than something actively going on right now. Without any firm commitments to China, would it make sense to have people learning Chinese for a mission that couldn't really happen for another seven years or so?

[Kryten]

3-This is worth checking. What European astronauts? Those are questions to be posed to ESA ("Are any of your astronaut candidates learning Chinese?") I could see a Chinese official claiming this but it being more wishful thinking than something actively going on right now. Without any firm commitments to China, would it make sense to have people learning Chinese for a mission that couldn't really happen for another seven years or so?

The claim's definitely factual given this article from late 2012;

There is not a single space power left in the world that thinks they can afford to send men and women to explore the moon or Mars on their own national budget. This is something that will have to be done by international co-operation. Even the Chinese, who have so far done it on their own, are looking for partners. We are in discussions with them. Some of our astronauts are learning Chinese and there are Chinese astronauts training at our centre in Germany. We have no concrete plans as yet but it is clear that future of manned space exploration lies with international co-operation.

but that's the full extent of the information on it I can find.

[Blackstar]

Thanks for that.

I think it kinda highlights the fact that the United States isn't really pursuing a strategy when it comes to international cooperation. What is the US offering in the future that other countries want to be a part of? China can answer that question, but the United States cannot.

[Dalhousie]

1-Surprising that they were not expecting to fly CE-4 no matter what. You'd think that they would want the experience. The more wheel turns that they can get on any planetary body, the better. Rover experience would set them up for an eventual Mars rover. With Yutu possibly out of commission, I would expect them to fly CE-4.

Bit surprised here too.  Chang'e 1 was a success, but followed up by Chang'e 2 with a more ambitious mission profile.  the same pattern can be seen in their crewed missions also.

I would have thought that Chang'e 4 would at least go somewhere different, such as the highlands or even the poles, given that Chang'e 3 landed from what appears to have been a polar orbit.

Another rover is worth doing for its' own sake as well as providing experience that could be used for Mars and further confidence in the lander for the sample return missions. 

[Blackstar]

1-Surprising that they were not expecting to fly CE-4 no matter what. You'd think that they would want the experience. The more wheel turns that they can get on any planetary body, the better. Rover experience would set them up for an eventual Mars rover. With Yutu possibly out of commission, I would expect them to fly CE-4.

Bit surprised here too.  Chang'e 1 was a success, but followed up by Chang'e 2 with a more ambitious mission profile.  the same pattern can be seen in their crewed missions also.

I would have thought that Chang'e 4 would at least go somewhere different, such as the highlands or even the poles, given that Chang'e 3 landed from what appears to have been a polar orbit.

Another rover is worth doing for its' own sake as well as providing experience that could be used for Mars and further confidence in the lander for the sample return missions. 

Not to mention that it could form the basis for an interesting joint mission. One clever approach would be this:

-hold CE-4 (and its rover) in reserve
-fly CE-5 as a sample return mission

If CE-5 is successful, then reorient and redesign CE-6. Instead of having CE-6 take a sample at the landing site, have CE-6 land, then land CE-4 nearby, use the rover to scoop up material and deliver it to CE-6 for return to Earth.

That's the kind of thing that NASA is considering for Mars 2020 and Mars sample return. It would be an interesting and challenging mission for China to do on the Moon, but it would actually be a logical progression if they had success with CE-3 and CE-5.

Now I still think that the safe and wise engineering approach (no matter if CE-3 is a success or not) is to land CE-4 and operate it as much as possible and as long at possible. Get as many wheel turns as possible to understand that environment. But the scenario I outlined above would be both an engineering/operations challenge and scientifically productive. And it would do something that neither the US or Soviet Union has done before, using a rover to collect materials for sample return.

[vjkane]

One clever approach would be this:

-hold CE-4 (and its rover) in reserve
-fly CE-5 as a sample return mission

If CE-5 is successful, then reorient and redesign CE-6. Instead of having CE-6 take a sample at the landing site, have CE-6 land, then land CE-4 nearby, use the rover to scoop up material and deliver it to CE-6 for return to Earth.

Interesting idea, although the sample collection and storage system is non-trivial (as we'll learn in great detail from the Mars 2020 rover).  If the Chinese don't care if samples get jumbled and don't care about retaining stratigraphy, then the mechanism could be much simpler.

But an intriguing idea!

[baldusi]

One clever approach would be this:

-hold CE-4 (and its rover) in reserve
-fly CE-5 as a sample return mission

If CE-5 is successful, then reorient and redesign CE-6. Instead of having CE-6 take a sample at the landing site, have CE-6 land, then land CE-4 nearby, use the rover to scoop up material and deliver it to CE-6 for return to Earth.

Interesting idea, although the sample collection and storage system is non-trivial (as we'll learn in great detail from the Mars 2020 rover).  If the Chinese don't care if samples get jumbled and don't care about retaining stratigraphy, then the mechanism could be much simpler.

But an intriguing idea!

Not to mention that they would need a lot of precision landing and probably a redesign of the communication structure. At least they would have to move some comm bands on at least one of the stacks. And probably would have to add a beacon to the one that lands first so the second can approach close enough.

[Blackstar]

One clever approach would be this:

-hold CE-4 (and its rover) in reserve
-fly CE-5 as a sample return mission

If CE-5 is successful, then reorient and redesign CE-6. Instead of having CE-6 take a sample at the landing site, have CE-6 land, then land CE-4 nearby, use the rover to scoop up material and deliver it to CE-6 for return to Earth.

Interesting idea, although the sample collection and storage system is non-trivial (as we'll learn in great detail from the Mars 2020 rover).  If the Chinese don't care if samples get jumbled and don't care about retaining stratigraphy, then the mechanism could be much simpler.

But an intriguing idea!

I've communicated a lot with the MoonRise/Orion-MoonRise people. MoonRise has done a lot of work on collecting a sample and inserting it into the sample return vehicle (sample collector and SRV on the same lander). And because they have also looked at the AXEL rover, which can collect small samples, I presume that they have done some preliminary work with connecting the rover sample with the sample collector on the lander.

Certainly the issues you raise--precision landing near another lander (but not on top of it!), connecting the samples and interface issues, and separating out the comm channels--are real. Multiple spacecraft operations are also challenging. But compared to the challenges of landing, rover deployment, and rover operations, those are not nearly as big. I think China could do this, and if they did pull it off, it would be an impressive engineering achievement in robotic space exploration that nobody else has done.