Author Topic: Are there any plans for a centrifuge in space?  (Read 18062 times)

Offline michaelwy

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Are there any plans for a centrifuge in space?
« on: 02/17/2013 01:33 pm »
Nasa and the Russians now have decades of experience with running space stations. I wonder whether there are any plans to create a centrifuge, a gravity simulator in space, a rotating space module or something similar? The way i see it, there can be no progress in space activity before this problem has been solved. They know what needs to be done, but they don't seem to be doing anything about it.

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Are there any plans for a centrifuge in space?
« Reply #1 on: 02/17/2013 01:52 pm »
No.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline QuantumG

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Re: Are there any plans for a centrifuge in space?
« Reply #2 on: 02/17/2013 09:30 pm »
The Space Studies Institute is looking to do a G-Lab but I don't think they're funded as yet.

http://ssi.org/2012/06/video-ssi-president-gary-hudson-discusses-g-lab/

HMXHMX can say more.
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Are there any plans for a centrifuge in space?
« Reply #3 on: 02/17/2013 11:40 pm »
Doesn't the Japanese module have some centrifuges?
Apologies in advance for any lack of civility - it's unintended

Offline manboy

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Re: Are there any plans for a centrifuge in space?
« Reply #4 on: 02/18/2013 02:52 pm »
Doesn't the Japanese module have some centrifuges?
Not sure if that is still being used, only the European Modular Cultivation System in the Destiny module looks operational.

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/facilities_hardware.html
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Offline R7

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Re: Are there any plans for a centrifuge in space?
« Reply #5 on: 02/18/2013 03:00 pm »
I wonder whether there are any plans to create a centrifuge, a gravity simulator in space, a rotating space module or something similar?

But of course there is.
AD·ASTRA·ASTRORVM·GRATIA

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Are there any plans for a centrifuge in space?
« Reply #6 on: 02/19/2013 12:33 am »
I wonder whether there are any plans to create a centrifuge, a gravity simulator in space, a rotating space module or something similar?

But of course there is.

Starting with a 6U cubesat.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline R7

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Re: Are there any plans for a centrifuge in space?
« Reply #7 on: 02/19/2013 02:37 pm »
But of course there is.
Starting with a 6U cubesat.

"Small moves, Ellie, small moves"  ;)
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Offline JimOman

Re: Are there any plans for a centrifuge in space?
« Reply #8 on: 02/21/2013 04:05 am »
The amount of time and money being spent on mitigating effects of microgravity make the massive burden of a space-centrifuge seem silly. 
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Offline QuantumG

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Re: Are there any plans for a centrifuge in space?
« Reply #9 on: 02/21/2013 04:31 am »
The amount of time and money being spent on mitigating effects of microgravity make the massive burden of a space-centrifuge seem silly. 

Assuming they work.. I think they will do the job for a Mars exploration mission, but colonization of free space is almost certainly going to require some sort of artificial gravity.
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Are there any plans for a centrifuge in space?
« Reply #10 on: 02/21/2013 04:46 am »
The amount of time and money being spent on mitigating effects of microgravity make the massive burden of a space-centrifuge seem silly. 
Except if you can solve the problem in LEO using drugs and exercise, then you've just about cut your IMLEO for a deep space mission in half, plus an enormous amount of technical complexity. This knowledge can be used for any long-duration non-surface missions in the future, while requiring a centrifuge on every deep-space spacecraft would get quite expensive.
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Offline KelvinZero

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Re: Are there any plans for a centrifuge in space?
« Reply #11 on: 02/21/2013 07:08 am »
The amount of time and money being spent on mitigating effects of microgravity make the massive burden of a space-centrifuge seem silly. 

Assuming they work.. I think they will do the job for a Mars exploration mission, but colonization of free space is almost certainly going to require some sort of artificial gravity.

btw, does anyone know if zero g health issues would eventually kill someone, or make them unable to function even in zero g? Would there be issues apart from not being able to return to earth?

Offline watermod

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Re: Are there any plans for a centrifuge in space?
« Reply #12 on: 02/21/2013 05:57 pm »
In good humor:
;D
I can't resist the image of a minimalist space centrifuge for humans.  That would be two astronauts in full suits with a long length of heavy fishing line between them and two propulsion pistols.  They point each in the opposite direction and fire at the same time...
 ;)
Or a rotating inflatable unit, from that Nevada firm, with a casino and mall, in it that you would take a minimalist SEP tug/(motorcycle analog) to for occasional gravity and a good time. (once a week to tone your gravity up)
 ;)

Offline QuantumG

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Re: Are there any plans for a centrifuge in space?
« Reply #13 on: 02/21/2013 08:56 pm »
The amount of time and money being spent on mitigating effects of microgravity make the massive burden of a space-centrifuge seem silly. 

Assuming they work.. I think they will do the job for a Mars exploration mission, but colonization of free space is almost certainly going to require some sort of artificial gravity.

btw, does anyone know if zero g health issues would eventually kill someone, or make them unable to function even in zero g? Would there be issues apart from not being able to return to earth?

I imagine so, but we honestly won't know until someone tries it.

In the mean time, we have significant evidence already that mammals can't conceive and come to term in zero-g. The bigger the mammal, the harder it becomes. No babies, no colonization.
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline IRobot

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Re: Are there any plans for a centrifuge in space?
« Reply #14 on: 02/22/2013 11:42 pm »
Quote
Super Space Germs Could Threaten Astronauts

http://www.space.com/19921-space-station-science-germs-worms.html

+1 reason for artificial gravity?

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Are there any plans for a centrifuge in space?
« Reply #15 on: 02/23/2013 12:08 am »
btw, does anyone know if zero g health issues would eventually kill someone, or make them unable to function even in zero g? Would there be issues apart from not being able to return to earth?

Before they kill someone they are likely to create a lot of mission risks. There's a big problem with calcium loss from bones. It comes out of the bones and ends up in the bloodstream before getting purged from the body. One of the results is possible kidney stones. Not good in space. Bone brittleness is another issue. What happens if one year into a two-year Mars mission one of your astronauts breaks a leg or an arm? That person could effectively become useless on the mission.

Offline Phillip Clark

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Re: Are there any plans for a centrifuge in space?
« Reply #16 on: 02/23/2013 09:48 am »
Back in the 1980s there were Russian proposals to fly one of the plug-on modules to Mir with a human-sized centrifuge inside.   Since the available ports all had other modules already assigned to them, it was never clear where such a module would have been docked.   There were some line drawings of the module around at the time but they were only general concepts rather than something detailed.
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Offline KelvinZero

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Re: Are there any plans for a centrifuge in space?
« Reply #17 on: 02/23/2013 11:01 am »
In the mean time, we have significant evidence already that mammals can't conceive and come to term in zero-g. The bigger the mammal, the harder it becomes. No babies, no colonization.
Got a reference on this? I think I heard that somewhere but couldnt find much on google.

Before they kill someone they are likely to create a lot of mission risks. There's a big problem with calcium loss from bones. It comes out of the bones and ends up in the bloodstream before getting purged from the body. One of the results is possible kidney stones. Not good in space. Bone brittleness is another issue. What happens if one year into a two-year Mars mission one of your astronauts breaks a leg or an arm? That person could effectively become useless on the mission.
I can certainly imagine that. I was thinking further ahead, if people were living their lives in zero-g, whether they could become well adapted to that environment without intervention.
People talk about bones becoming brittle, which is probably not good even for zero-g. I imagine it would be better if people's bones didnt ossify but remained soft like baby bones, or fish bones, with more cartilage. I had sort of imagined that the hardening of bones was somewhat triggered by applying regular stresses to them, 'teaching' them to develop more strength in a certain direction. I can't see anything online to support that though. Maybe it just happens.

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Are there any plans for a centrifuge in space?
« Reply #18 on: 02/24/2013 12:15 am »
Let's add something else to that--bones become brittle and then an astronaut breaks a leg and the break punctures the skin. Now you have bleeding. In zero-gee. Suppose it happens during an EVA. I imagine that it is much easier to go from a broken bone to a fatality in a zero-gee environment than it is on the ground.


Offline Blackstar

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Re: Are there any plans for a centrifuge in space?
« Reply #19 on: 02/24/2013 12:21 am »
On a slightly different note, it might be interesting for an enterprising grad student to research the history of NASA's centrifuge and what really happened to it. It was a very high priority item. Officially it got canceled due to "cost overruns."

However, back around 2005 or 2006 I was in a meeting where a senior ISS official was pressed on this issue by some scientists. (The reason is that from a scientific point of view, the centrifuge was very high priority and many people thought that without it the scientific value of ISS was zero. Many people still think that.) Anyway, the ISS official was really cagey about the whole thing. I thought that seemed odd. Why not simply state "we couldn't afford it" and leave it at that? So I asked one of my colleagues, who was very familiar with life and microgravity research issues on ISS. She said that they were never able to get a straight answer out of NASA, but that there was a general belief that the Japanese, who were building the centrifuge, were having major technical problems, such as isolating it from the station. Yeah, it was killed for cost reasons, but they were covering for an ally. Space stuff is hard. It would be interesting if somebody could dig through records and interview people and find out what really killed the centrifuge.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Are there any plans for a centrifuge in space?
« Reply #20 on: 02/24/2013 12:36 am »
Let's add something else to that--bones become brittle and then an astronaut breaks a leg and the break punctures the skin. Now you have bleeding. In zero-gee. Suppose it happens during an EVA. I imagine that it is much easier to go from a broken bone to a fatality in a zero-gee environment than it is on the ground.


1)How in the heck are you going to have such a violent accident during a zero-gee EVA that you produce a skin-puncturing bone fracture but don't otherwise /seriously/ harm the astronaut?

2)Recent results suggest we're doing very good on the bone density issue, either using just exercise or a combination of standard drugs and exercise.
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Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Are there any plans for a centrifuge in space?
« Reply #21 on: 02/24/2013 01:07 am »
Let's add something else to that--bones become brittle and then an astronaut breaks a leg and the break punctures the skin. Now you have bleeding. In zero-gee. Suppose it happens during an EVA. I imagine that it is much easier to go from a broken bone to a fatality in a zero-gee environment than it is on the ground.

Blood clotting is not gravity dependent.  Neither is managing an open fracture.
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Offline KelvinZero

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Re: Are there any plans for a centrifuge in space?
« Reply #22 on: 02/24/2013 01:48 am »
The reason is that from a scientific point of view, the centrifuge was very high priority and many people thought that without it the scientific value of ISS was zero. Many people still think that.)

The notion always gets pooh-poohed. I has assumed the reasons were scientific. How about something detachable from the ISS? There was a recent thread discussing how to squeeze 500 days of lifesupport into a Dragon. I would much prefer to see anything like that trialled a lot closer to home and performing an artificial gravity experiment seems a lot more useful. Also you could perform multiple gravity and life support tests of course.

Offline QuantumG

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Re: Are there any plans for a centrifuge in space?
« Reply #23 on: 02/24/2013 02:28 am »
2)Recent results suggest we're doing very good on the bone density issue, either using just exercise or a combination of standard drugs and exercise.

The context was long-term exposure.. decades, not years. Drugs and exercise are not going to carry you through a lifetime.
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline HMXHMX

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Re: Are there any plans for a centrifuge in space?
« Reply #24 on: 02/24/2013 03:39 am »
2)Recent results suggest we're doing very good on the bone density issue, either using just exercise or a combination of standard drugs and exercise.

The context was long-term exposure.. decades, not years. Drugs and exercise are not going to carry you through a lifetime.


Precisely.  I'm continually amazed at the disconnect between the relevance of mitigations for "short" (i.e., year or two) zero-G exposure vs. permananet settlement.  Low G, or zero-G, both are huge uncertainties with regard to permanent settlement...

Offline HMXHMX

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Re: Are there any plans for a centrifuge in space?
« Reply #25 on: 02/24/2013 03:42 am »
On a slightly different note, it might be interesting for an enterprising grad student to research the history of NASA's centrifuge and what really happened to it. It was a very high priority item. Officially it got canceled due to "cost overruns."

However, back around 2005 or 2006 I was in a meeting where a senior ISS official was pressed on this issue by some scientists. (The reason is that from a scientific point of view, the centrifuge was very high priority and many people thought that without it the scientific value of ISS was zero. Many people still think that.) Anyway, the ISS official was really cagey about the whole thing. I thought that seemed odd. Why not simply state "we couldn't afford it" and leave it at that? So I asked one of my colleagues, who was very familiar with life and microgravity research issues on ISS. She said that they were never able to get a straight answer out of NASA, but that there was a general belief that the Japanese, who were building the centrifuge, were having major technical problems, such as isolating it from the station. Yeah, it was killed for cost reasons, but they were covering for an ally. Space stuff is hard. It would be interesting if somebody could dig through records and interview people and find out what really killed the centrifuge.

Indeed.  Having a massive momentum wheel like the centrifuge on the ISS is a non-starter.  That's why it has to be a free flyer, preferably co-orbital with the station to share crew and cargo dockings.  It's what we proposed (see ssi.org) but so far we are getting very little traction.  People just don't want to think about the low and zero-G problem.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Are there any plans for a centrifuge in space?
« Reply #26 on: 02/24/2013 05:22 am »
2)Recent results suggest we're doing very good on the bone density issue, either using just exercise or a combination of standard drugs and exercise.

The context was long-term exposure.. decades, not years. Drugs and exercise are not going to carry you through a lifetime.


Precisely.  I'm continually amazed at the disconnect between the relevance of mitigations for "short" (i.e., year or two) zero-G exposure vs. permananet settlement.  Low G, or zero-G, both are huge uncertainties with regard to permanent settlement...
I suspect there are other good reasons for artificial gravity if you're not just trying to get someplace.
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Offline KelvinZero

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Re: Are there any plans for a centrifuge in space?
« Reply #27 on: 02/24/2013 05:50 am »
2)Recent results suggest we're doing very good on the bone density issue, either using just exercise or a combination of standard drugs and exercise.

The context was long-term exposure.. decades, not years. Drugs and exercise are not going to carry you through a lifetime.


A pet sci-fi idea: everyone has little chips with accelerometers embedded near nerves. Any bone that hasn't received a healthy ration of impacts develops 'bone ache' that grows with time. It also gives instant momentary relief when it receives an impact, for rapid feedback. The result is a society mad about impact sports and competition, like a society populated from Nike commercials. Board rooms would also be squash courts and so on. No sitting in classrooms, kids would learn to think while chucking a medicine ball around.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Are there any plans for a centrifuge in space?
« Reply #28 on: 02/25/2013 02:11 pm »
On a slightly different note, it might be interesting for an enterprising grad student to research the history of...
Barely enough time to even bathe ;) : http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1185
« Last Edit: 02/25/2013 02:27 pm by Robotbeat »
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Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Are there any plans for a centrifuge in space?
« Reply #29 on: 02/25/2013 02:29 pm »
2)Recent results suggest we're doing very good on the bone density issue, either using just exercise or a combination of standard drugs and exercise.

The context was long-term exposure.. decades, not years. Drugs and exercise are not going to carry you through a lifetime.


A pet sci-fi idea: everyone has little chips with accelerometers embedded near nerves. Any bone that hasn't received a healthy ration of impacts develops 'bone ache' that grows with time. It also gives instant momentary relief when it receives an impact, for rapid feedback. The result is a society mad about impact sports and competition, like a society populated from Nike commercials. Board rooms would also be squash courts and so on. No sitting in classrooms, kids would learn to think while chucking a medicine ball around.

Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Are there any plans for a centrifuge in space?
« Reply #30 on: 02/25/2013 08:06 pm »
I am so glad you posted this. It squares mostly with what I've heard from within the program. (The flip perspective was that JAXA started from a NASA design, discovered the flaws partway through, couldn't fix it without a budget increase, and were unwilling to ask the Diet for the money since Japan's ISS participation was skating on thin ice as it was. So it wasn't just NASA covering for JAXA, it was both partners covering for each other.)

I am sure that there were five sides to every argument. There always are. I have heard that in general it is difficult to work with the Japanese on space issues because you never get a clear answer out of them. (A friend of mine related how it was very important to go out with the Japanese for beers after a meeting. During the meeting they would get bland assurances that everything was going okay. Then over beers somebody would say "Look, the boss was just being polite. We're not going to really do what you want.")

It is possible that NASA gave JAXA requirements/specifications that were unworkable and that the Japanese did not simply say so. Then everybody went down a path too far to back out and finally the whole thing just fell apart. Who is to blame? Well, the Americans for providing unworkable requirements... and the Japanese for not saying something early on... and nobody because the whole thing was not affordable.

Speculating here.

Like I said, it could simply be due to insufficient funds. But we couldn't get a straightforward answer from the NASA people if that's all that it was. Then again, sometimes you think that they're hiding something important only to discover that they're not and are just being overly sensitive or bureaucratic.

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Are there any plans for a centrifuge in space?
« Reply #31 on: 02/25/2013 08:11 pm »
Blood clotting is not gravity dependent.  Neither is managing an open fracture.

Trying to deal with an open fracture in zero gee is probably not easy. The blood doesn't helpfully fall out of the way.

Forget the specifics. My general point was that I imagine that injuries that are usually considered non-life-threatening on Earth are much more serious in space.

Offline muomega0

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Re: Are there any plans for a centrifuge in space?
« Reply #32 on: 02/25/2013 08:47 pm »
On a slightly different note, it might be interesting for an enterprising grad student to research the history of NASA's centrifuge and what really happened to it. It was a very high priority item. Officially it got canceled due to "cost overruns."

However, back around 2005 or 2006 I was in a meeting where a senior ISS official was pressed on this issue by some scientists. (The reason is that from a scientific point of view, the centrifuge was very high priority and many people thought that without it the scientific value of ISS was zero. Many people still think that.) Anyway, the ISS official was really cagey about the whole thing. I thought that seemed odd. Why not simply state "we couldn't afford it" and leave it at that? So I asked one of my colleagues, who was very familiar with life and microgravity research issues on ISS. She said that they were never able to get a straight answer out of NASA, but that there was a general belief that the Japanese, who were building the centrifuge, were having major technical problems, such as isolating it from the station. Yeah, it was killed for cost reasons, but they were covering for an ally. Space stuff is hard. It would be interesting if somebody could dig through records and interview people and find out what really killed the centrifuge.

I am so glad you posted this. It squares mostly with what I've heard from within the program. (The flip perspective was that JAXA started from a NASA design, discovered the flaws partway through, couldn't fix it without a budget increase, and were unwilling to ask the Diet for the money since Japan's ISS participation was skating on thin ice as it was. So it wasn't just NASA covering for JAXA, it was both partners covering for each other.)

Technical issues?  Was not a CDR conducted in 2003/4 with prototypes already built?

President directed NASA to return to the moon in 2004, retire the shuttle in 2010, and fulfill commitments to ISS partners.

In 2005, the hab module and centrifuge were cancelled due to lack of shuttle manifest flights and ISS overruns and money directed to Ares I and Ares V, TMK, to close the gap.  How did that work out?

Online VSECOTSPE

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Re: Are there any plans for a centrifuge in space?
« Reply #33 on: 08/28/2023 09:27 pm »

Just correcting the record upthread, where there was some speculation that JAXA difficulty with completing the ISS centrifuge was the reason for the Centrifuge Accommodation Module’s termination.  That’s not the case.  The CAM was terminated because of a $5 billion overrun on the overall ISS program that JSC Director George Abbey handed to NASA Administrator Dan Goldin and the Bush II Administration shortly after President Bush took office.  This is recounted, among other places, in this CRS report:

Quote
As costs continued to rise, Congress voted to legislate a $25 billion cap on development of the ISS program, plus $17.7 billion for associated shuttle launches, in the FY2000-FY2002 NASA authorization act (P.L. 106-391). In January 2001, however, NASA announced that the cost would be over $30 billion, 72% above the 1993 estimate, and $5 billion above the legislated cap. NASA explained that program managers had underestimated the complexity of building and operating the station. The Bush Administration signaled it supported the legislated cap, would not provide additional funds, and NASA would have to find what it needed from within its Human Space Flight account.

"Core Complete" Configuration

In February 2001, the Bush Administration announced it would cancel or defer some ISS hardware to stay within the cap and control space station costs. The decision truncated construction of the space station at a stage the Administration called "core complete." In 2001, the space station program office at Johnson Space Center (JSC) estimated that it would cost $8.3 billion from FY2002 toFY2006 to build the core complete configuration, described at that time as all the U.S. hardware planned for launch through "Node 2," plus the launch of laboratories being built by Europe and Japan. NASA subsequently began distinguishing between "U.S. Core Complete" (the launches through Node 2, which, prior to the Columbia tragedy, was scheduled for February 2004) and "International Partner (IP) Core Complete" which included the addition of European and Japanese laboratory modules (then anticipated in 2008).

https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/RL33568.html

That $5 billion overrun came after annual $1-2 billion overruns that the Clinton Administration absorbed.  It was a supremely bad timing on Abbey’s part coming after years of mismanagement that he was ultimately responsible for.

Other offsets for the $5 billion overrun included related research, the X-38/CRV, and the Habitation Module.  Abbey was also forced out.  I can confirm this as I covered NASA at OMB at the time and was involved in the decisions.  I do not recall any discussion about the Japanese having trouble building the centrifuge.

I personally regret the CAM and related research termination decision and think we should have found a different offset, but I’m not sure what it would have been that late in the program.  I hope VAST or another private station is able to pick up the variable-G research baton in the coming years.

That said, the lack of demonstrated development proficiency among NASA’s human space flight leadership and managers and their resulting inability to control costs and focus on ends, not means, was the ultimate cause of that fiasco at the turn of the millennium.  I do not regret helping terminate X-38/CRV when a simple capsule would have sufficed for the emergency return function.  I also do not regret terminating humans to Mars technology work like the Hab Module at a time when NASA couldn’t even finish a LEO station.  And I really don’t regret Abbey being shown the door.  Forcing him out was way overdue.

FWIW...

Offline mikelepage

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Re: Are there any plans for a centrifuge in space?
« Reply #34 on: 08/30/2023 03:48 am »
I have to say, the main reason I'm excited about Starship's reusable lift capacity is less to do with Mars and more to do with how it makes space centrifuge approaches like Vast's and Gravitics' viable.

With regard to bone density, important to remember that daily exercise only solves half the problem. Even though daily exercise can maintain *overall* bone density, it doesn't prevent the remodelling of bone, where over time you have less trabecular bone (less dense, spongey stuff in the middle), and more cortical bone (the hard compact bone on the outside). Which is to say that bone brittleness != bone density, and micro-g induces an osteoporosis type phenotype over time. And that's just one of the problems that artificial gravity solves.


 

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