Author Topic: Red Dragon Discussion Thread (1)  (Read 558927 times)

Offline Patchouli

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Re: Red Dragon
« Reply #40 on: 08/03/2011 06:00 am »
On payloads Red Dragon's science payload should massive compared to past mars missions including MSL though there is no way you could deploy an MSL sized rover from Dragon.

But Red Dragon probably could deploy something along the lines of Robonaut from Project M along with a couple of MER class rovers repackaged to fit through the hatch.

Packaging is a bigger issue here then mass as Red Dragon's payload should be similar to Dragon's Earth down mass or around 3000kg.
« Last Edit: 08/03/2011 06:03 am by Patchouli »

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Red Dragon
« Reply #41 on: 08/03/2011 06:20 am »
On payloads Red Dragon's science payload should massive compared to past mars missions including MSL though there is no way you could deploy an MSL sized rover from Dragon.

But Red Dragon probably could deploy something along the lines of Robonaut from Project M along with a couple of MER class rovers repackaged to fit through the hatch.

Packaging is a bigger issue here then mass as Red Dragon's payload should be similar to Dragon's Earth down mass or around 3000kg.

I assume that Robonaut can pick things up and move them through the hatch.  It, with help from a tool box, can probably assemble equipment on the surface of Mars.

Offline notsorandom

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Re: Red Dragon
« Reply #42 on: 08/03/2011 06:58 am »
On payloads Red Dragon's science payload should massive compared to past mars missions including MSL though there is no way you could deploy an MSL sized rover from Dragon.

But Red Dragon probably could deploy something along the lines of Robonaut from Project M along with a couple of MER class rovers repackaged to fit through the hatch.

Packaging is a bigger issue here then mass as Red Dragon's payload should be similar to Dragon's Earth down mass or around 3000kg.

I don't know if it would be comparable. Here is my train of though on it. Earth has a thick atmosphere that accomplishes the most of the slowing down for dragon. For the ISS cargo versions there is no propulsion needed for the decent. Mars' atmosphere is too thin to do that. Pathfinder was still going 370m/s when the parachute was deployed. Red Dragon could or could not use a parachute. If it does it will be a special designed supersonic ones specific to Mars. The lander in the 2009 NASA Austere Human Missions to Mars study doesn't. They found it to add cost to the mission. Either way there is going to be a propulsive breaking system and propellant.

Offline go4mars

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Re: Red Dragon
« Reply #43 on: 08/03/2011 04:31 pm »
Would it be enough for a sample return platform?   Put a drop ramp on one side for a rover, tuck in a Zubrin style ISRU to make propellant, and put a sample return rocket on top with a "mini-dragon"... it'd be like matryoshka dolls. =)

It would help validate the lander for Mars, the ISRU component, and give us a return sample.

First thing that comes to mind is that this would be a Dragon derived vehicle.
With the pressurized section hollowed out? Would doing that really result in significant cost savings?

Lol.  Might as well add wheels, solar-panel-lined wings, ISRU propellant system, and big lumps of RTG's, and 20 or 30 extendable instrument-lined arms to dragon itself. 

Seriously though, in the 2018ish timeframe, dragon would be a good candidate to deliver a respectable drill rig which would drill through dragons floor, threading on numerous drill-pipe segments for a depth of penetration of at least many tens of meters.  Core or chip samples could be collected in dragon and analyzed.   
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Offline Jim

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Re: Red Dragon
« Reply #44 on: 08/03/2011 04:50 pm »


Seriously though, in the 2018ish timeframe, dragon would be a good candidate to deliver a respectable drill rig which would drill through dragons floor, threading on numerous drill-pipe segments for a depth of penetration of at least many tens of meters.  Core or chip samples could be collected in dragon and analyzed.   

No, it wouldn't

A.  What is its power source?
b,  What says it is a stable enough platform for drilling or any other experiment?  Earth landing requirements are different.
c.  The interior is self limiting for hardware.

Offline go4mars

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Re: Red Dragon
« Reply #45 on: 08/03/2011 05:02 pm »


Seriously though, in the 2018ish timeframe, dragon would be a good candidate to deliver a respectable drill rig which would drill through dragons floor, threading on numerous drill-pipe segments for a depth of penetration of at least many tens of meters.  Core or chip samples could be collected in dragon and analyzed.   

No, it wouldn't

A.  What is its power source?
b,  What says it is a stable enough platform for drilling or any other experiment? 
c,Earth landing requirements are different.
d.  The interior is self limiting for hardware.

A.  TBD.  What would you recommend? 

B.  My experience with drilling (I'm a geologist/reservoir engineer).  Extreme stability is not essential, and a drill-rig could be designed to handle some settling (slight angle change) while at work fairly easily if dragon's footing shifted during the drilling process (with flexible rig-mounting hardware within dragon). 

C.  Mars landing requirements would need to be assessed and some reprogramming would be necessary.  SpaceX would probably need to turn off half of the 8 propulsive landing engines and throttle down the remaining ones, with a slight change in engine thrust vectors so they don't go into a spin.  Or have an option of launching with just 4 propulsive landing motors for unmanned planetary missions. 

I was thinking along the assumption that SpaceX is in talks with NASA (or some guys from NASA) about launching something to Mars in 7 or 9 years because SpaceX believes they can have the ability to do so by then.  Like you, SpaceX knows that landing requirements on Earth are different.

D.  True.  The pipe-segment length would need to be sized accordingly.  I don't know how feasible (expensive) a nose-cone extension would be (for longer segments of drill-pipe), but the size limitations imposed by a naked dragon interior could be worked with.   
« Last Edit: 08/03/2011 05:16 pm by go4mars »
Elasmotherium; hurlyburly Doggerlandic Jentilak steeds insouciantly gallop in viridescent taiga, eluding deluginal Burckle's abyssal excavation.

Offline Ben the Space Brit

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Re: Red Dragon
« Reply #46 on: 08/03/2011 06:07 pm »
Given that Dragon is hypergol-propelled and thus can't use simpler ISRU technologies to refuel, whatever it lands has to be a one-way.  As Jim points out, it isn't ideally proportioned to land a rover or any other sensor package.  So, for what purpose could you use it?

One of Dragon's signature roles is cargo landing.  So, it could be used to land certain items.  However, it would need to be a limited-mass item that it would not be sensible to land with a single much larger cargo lander (such as consumables and surface scientific equipment).

So... Small, limited-mass payload necessarily seperate from the rest of the surface cargo manifest.  The Dragon probably wouldn't have a long-duration power supply after Trunk jettison either... Hmmm...

How about using it to land the nuclear pile to power the ISRU plant? A precision landing some distance from the main LZ would seem a sensible option.  This is one of the intended capabilities of the Dragon powered landing system anyway.  You then just deploy a small (Sojourner-sized) solar-electric rover to carry the plug and power cord over to the ISRU plant lander.  The radiators can be packed into the docking port and deployed vertically after landing.

Lots of work would be needed to done to make the power hook-up system reliable (either time-delay remote or local autonomous computer control are questionable with current technology).  However, it is not inconceivable.
« Last Edit: 08/03/2011 06:08 pm by Ben the Space Brit »
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Offline docmordrid

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Re: Red Dragon
« Reply #47 on: 08/03/2011 06:13 pm »
Just how pig/powerful a rig do they need to drill through 1 - 1.5 meters of ice?  Seems light pressure with the right bit and a few hours of low RPM could do (ice fisherman speculation)
DM

Offline rklaehn

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Re: Red Dragon
« Reply #48 on: 08/03/2011 06:43 pm »
I don't think this has to be a very complex science mission. The first dragon landing on mars should be an almost pure technology demonstration mission.

Just proving that a capsule with a 15° cone angle can be soft-landed on mars would be a major advance. Every single mars study I have seen uses either some kind of lifting body or some other very space-inefficient design like apollo/orion.

If you can land a dragon-shaped spacecraft on mars, you no longer need a huge payload fairing to land your manned mission.

If the falcon heavy truly costs just ~100 million, and the dragon can be a reused one from the CRS program, the whole mission could be done for less than 200 million USD.

If you do heavy modifications to use every single kg of payload capability, then the whole mission will cost a billion and need a much longer lead time. But we need the information whether a dragon shaped mars entry vehicle is practical as soon as possible to plan the next step.

Offline Patchouli

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Re: Red Dragon
« Reply #49 on: 08/03/2011 06:55 pm »
On payloads Red Dragon's science payload should massive compared to past mars missions including MSL though there is no way you could deploy an MSL sized rover from Dragon.

But Red Dragon probably could deploy something along the lines of Robonaut from Project M along with a couple of MER class rovers repackaged to fit through the hatch.

Packaging is a bigger issue here then mass as Red Dragon's payload should be similar to Dragon's Earth down mass or around 3000kg.

I assume that Robonaut can pick things up and move them through the hatch.  It, with help from a tool box, can probably assemble equipment on the surface of Mars.

The mars robonaut will have to be more autonomous then previous versions.
It probably will be pushing the state of the art for autonomous AI even ten years from now if you want it to do anything complex.

For reliability I'd be temped to forgo legs and use tracks or wheels like the Centaur 2 concept think Johnny 5 from short circuit.

That or just design it to handle and recover from falls.

I don't think this has to be a very complex science mission. The first dragon landing on mars should be an almost pure technology demonstration mission.

Just proving that a capsule with a 15° cone angle can be soft-landed on mars would be a major advance. Every single mars study I have seen uses either some kind of lifting body or some other very space-inefficient design like apollo/orion.

If you can land a dragon-shaped spacecraft on mars, you no longer need a huge payload fairing to land your manned mission.



Use of Dragon's shape could get the fairing size down to as small as seven or eight meters.

But I doubt it would get you to EELV sized fairings for the cargo elements as that will require a shape that is long and thin.
Such as this biconic example.

The problem parts are the MAV ascent stage and the rover.
The hab could be made inflatable and the guts stored in another decent vehicle.

Though if you do land the crew in Dragon shaped capsule that is under 5M it must land as close as possible to the habitation module.

One reason some studies prefer to land the crew in a large rover using something similar to the MSL sky crane.

Maybe the crewed Dragon could have Athlete as the landing gear.
It won't be fast but it probably could cover 40 to 80km before the week's worth of supplies Dragon can carry runs out.

« Last Edit: 08/03/2011 07:21 pm by Patchouli »

Offline simonbp

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Re: Red Dragon
« Reply #50 on: 08/04/2011 10:12 pm »
The idea that this mission would be proposed to Discovery is astounding.  ~$450M to land something as big as Dragon + payload on Mars?  :o

If they can do that, that's a game changer. 

Yes. It's a big if, but Fortune Favors the Bold.

Offline docmordrid

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DM

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Red Dragon
« Reply #52 on: 08/04/2011 10:49 pm »
Is this the game changing technology that the President spoke of?
The Ford Model T of spaceflight… ::)
Robert
« Last Edit: 08/04/2011 11:00 pm by Rocket Science »
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Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: Red Dragon
« Reply #53 on: 08/05/2011 12:22 am »


Seriously though, in the 2018ish timeframe, dragon would be a good candidate to deliver a respectable drill rig which would drill through dragons floor, threading on numerous drill-pipe segments for a depth of penetration of at least many tens of meters.  Core or chip samples could be collected in dragon and analyzed.   

No, it wouldn't

A.  What is its power source?
b,  What says it is a stable enough platform for drilling or any other experiment? 
c,Earth landing requirements are different.
d.  The interior is self limiting for hardware.

A.  TBD.  What would you recommend? 

B.  My experience with drilling (I'm a geologist/reservoir engineer).  Extreme stability is not essential, and a drill-rig could be designed to handle some settling (slight angle change) while at work fairly easily if dragon's footing shifted during the drilling process (with flexible rig-mounting hardware within dragon). 

C.  Mars landing requirements would need to be assessed and some reprogramming would be necessary.  SpaceX would probably need to turn off half of the 8 propulsive landing engines and throttle down the remaining ones, with a slight change in engine thrust vectors so they don't go into a spin.  Or have an option of launching with just 4 propulsive landing motors for unmanned planetary missions. 

I was thinking along the assumption that SpaceX is in talks with NASA (or some guys from NASA) about launching something to Mars in 7 or 9 years because SpaceX believes they can have the ability to do so by then.  Like you, SpaceX knows that landing requirements on Earth are different.

D.  True.  The pipe-segment length would need to be sized accordingly.  I don't know how feasible (expensive) a nose-cone extension would be (for longer segments of drill-pipe), but the size limitations imposed by a naked dragon interior could be worked with.   


A. maybe just carry more Monomethylhydrazine & nitrogen tetroxide to run a power unit like the shuttle APUs.

Offline Jim

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Re: Red Dragon
« Reply #54 on: 08/05/2011 12:28 am »
A.  shuttle APU's run on the order of minutes and not weeks.
B.  APU's are mono prop

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: Red Dragon
« Reply #55 on: 08/05/2011 02:05 am »
A.  shuttle APU's run on the order of minutes and not weeks.
B.  APU's are mono prop

copy on point B. But you can still carry a lot of mono prop in a derived Dragon.

on point A, was thinking of about several hours of power just for the drill rig. Presume  solar arrays with storage  batteries for other operations.

@go4mars
How deep is the test drill rig aiming for? My guess about 20 meters with 2 meter drill-pipe sections. Could several hours of drill rig operating time be enough?

Offline docmordrid

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Re: Red Dragon
« Reply #56 on: 08/05/2011 02:25 am »
Articles say 1+ meters
DM

Offline Jim

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Re: Red Dragon
« Reply #57 on: 08/05/2011 11:42 am »
A.  shuttle APU's run on the order of minutes and not weeks.
B.  APU's are mono prop

copy on point B. But you can still carry a lot of mono prop in a derived Dragon.

on point A, was thinking of about several hours of power just for the drill rig. Presume  solar arrays with storage  batteries for other operations.

@go4mars
How deep is the test drill rig aiming for? My guess about 20 meters with 2 meter drill-pipe sections. Could several hours of drill rig operating time be enough?

You would saturate the area with combustion products.

That was my point, where do the solar arrays go?

Offline Garrett

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Re: Red Dragon
« Reply #58 on: 08/05/2011 01:40 pm »
Why not create a crater with explosives/stage impact and then land in the crater? Elon keeps saying the Dragon will have near pinpoint landing accuracy. Or drop an explosive. Hop away. Bang. Hop back.

Naivety is bliss :P
« Last Edit: 08/05/2011 01:40 pm by Garrett »
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Offline go4mars

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Re: Red Dragon
« Reply #59 on: 08/05/2011 02:58 pm »
@go4mars
How deep is the test drill rig aiming for? My guess about 20 meters with 2 meter drill-pipe sections. Could several hours of drill rig operating time be enough?

It depends on your pipe diameter and storage space.  Tens of meters is certainly possible.  Mars is cold enough that wellbore stability shouldn't be a problem for the first few hundred meters of depth.  A few hours?  Depends how resistant the rocks are that dragon rig would be drilling into.  You could plan for a certain baseline goal of 5 or 10 meters, but have enough drill-pipe to get down to something a lot deeper if drilling goes better than anticipated. 

It would be a lot easier with humans there, unconstrained by dragon, responsive to issues, and simplifying the equipment by being some of it (pipe threader, etc.).  They could even power it the old fashioned way: 



« Last Edit: 08/05/2011 02:59 pm by go4mars »
Elasmotherium; hurlyburly Doggerlandic Jentilak steeds insouciantly gallop in viridescent taiga, eluding deluginal Burckle's abyssal excavation.

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