Quote from: MATTBLAK on 05/13/2016 09:38 amIf they were doing manned Lunar Sortie missions in preparation for a small manned Outpost - it would have purpose! Two manned plus two cargo missions per year would give it a decent enough flight rate to justify the expense of the standing armies of production and infrastructure. Also; 'trickle' funding has resulted in a virtual three-step development: Block 1, Block 1B and Block II. I feel that if they were going to be throwing away all this massive hardware each time (we call that expendable, eh?) then they should be shooting for the best and most powerful version from the word GO. Lifting 130, 140 or even 150 tons to LEO per launch would go a long way to justifying such a large expendable. I also believe Mars is, sadly, an unfunded Powerpoint fantasy at this point Agreed, SLS is perfectly scaled for a lunar program and would be an enabler for a manned return to the moon. It's too expensive to go to Mars with expendables but you can go to the moon with expendables. Why not? It would justify SLS having a flight rate of value, without requiring so many launches that it should be bank breaking beyond what SLS already is. SLS at least makes an Apollo-like program repeatable, certainly enables large payloads to cislunar and perhaps even a minor lunar surface outpost.However, it's not going to be used for any of those things yet, which is eyewatering. I can see a shift to lunar for SLS happening eventually, but it's not going to happen in this tumultuous year.
If they were doing manned Lunar Sortie missions in preparation for a small manned Outpost - it would have purpose! Two manned plus two cargo missions per year would give it a decent enough flight rate to justify the expense of the standing armies of production and infrastructure. Also; 'trickle' funding has resulted in a virtual three-step development: Block 1, Block 1B and Block II. I feel that if they were going to be throwing away all this massive hardware each time (we call that expendable, eh?) then they should be shooting for the best and most powerful version from the word GO. Lifting 130, 140 or even 150 tons to LEO per launch would go a long way to justifying such a large expendable. I also believe Mars is, sadly, an unfunded Powerpoint fantasy at this point
Quote from: The Amazing Catstronaut on 05/13/2016 12:55 pmQuote from: MATTBLAK on 05/13/2016 09:38 amIf they were doing manned Lunar Sortie missions in preparation for a small manned Outpost - it would have purpose! Two manned plus two cargo missions per year would give it a decent enough flight rate to justify the expense of the standing armies of production and infrastructure. Also; 'trickle' funding has resulted in a virtual three-step development: Block 1, Block 1B and Block II. I feel that if they were going to be throwing away all this massive hardware each time (we call that expendable, eh?) then they should be shooting for the best and most powerful version from the word GO. Lifting 130, 140 or even 150 tons to LEO per launch would go a long way to justifying such a large expendable. I also believe Mars is, sadly, an unfunded Powerpoint fantasy at this point Agreed, SLS is perfectly scaled for a lunar program and would be an enabler for a manned return to the moon. It's too expensive to go to Mars with expendables but you can go to the moon with expendables. Why not? It would justify SLS having a flight rate of value, without requiring so many launches that it should be bank breaking beyond what SLS already is. SLS at least makes an Apollo-like program repeatable, certainly enables large payloads to cislunar and perhaps even a minor lunar surface outpost.However, it's not going to be used for any of those things yet, which is eyewatering. I can see a shift to lunar for SLS happening eventually, but it's not going to happen in this tumultuous year.Mars Vs Moon is a political decision and not one based on capabilities yet. We are on a Journey To Mars because that is what administration is saying. That could switch tomorrow to the Moon and NASA would be in a good position to accomplish that goal with the current roster of programs and capabilities. At this point along The Journey To Mars we haven't arrived at the point where the road to Mars splits from the road to the Moon. SLS, Orion, DSH, SEP are just as useful for a lunar program as a Mars program (if not more so). The down select to a destination can still be done a few years form now without too much trouble. Its only when things like surface habitats, and landers need to be developed that one place or another has to be chosen. In this context SLS's ambiguity of destination and mission is a feature not a defect.
If they were doing manned Lunar Sortie missions in preparation for a small manned Outpost - it would have purpose! Two manned plus two cargo missions per year would give it a decent enough flight rate to justify the expense of the standing armies of production and infrastructure.
Quote from: Lars_J on 08/21/2013 04:47 pmIt is beyond ridiculous that lunar missions during Apollo could be launched with one launch, but a similar capable launch vehicle now requires two launches. Unbelievable.Yes, I know that this is an architecture for landing 4 astronauts at the poles. But still...Concur! That was exactly the same reaction I had when I saw that when I first read the presentation, and why it's the headline.
It is beyond ridiculous that lunar missions during Apollo could be launched with one launch, but a similar capable launch vehicle now requires two launches. Unbelievable.Yes, I know that this is an architecture for landing 4 astronauts at the poles. But still...
If SpaceX doesn't die or massively change its ideological bent, they will be going to Mars at some point. Good for them - SLS can go to the moon, L1, L2, near earth asteroids, you name it. SpaceX's mars plans are comparatively razor sharp. NASA's mars goals are redirectable, and that's pivotal. I'm fairly certain that NASA top brass are conscious of this hence the emphasis on habitats and enabling technologies. If SLS and Orion get off the ground, they should be used in the sphere that they're suited for.
The 4x crew architecture shown in that article would be spectacular and useful - but of course, expensive. The most powerful Block II SLS version envisaged could do a more basic lunar mission in one launch - similar to the Apollo J-series missions but better. Say, a crew of two to the surface for a whole week instead of three days as in Apollo, with a lander halfway in size between the Apollo LM and Constellation's 'Altair'.If they could keep the missions to 1x SLS Block II launch per time, then costs would be kept down, but capabilities could rise over time, with or without extra SLS launches. One week Sortie missions could use a crew of three to start with with two going to the surface and one staying in lunar orbit, as in Apollo. But once Habitation modules had been established on the surface, the crew could grow to 4x Astronauts with the lander taking them all down at once and the Orion orbiting alone as originally envisaged. And as mentioned by someone else, Outpost cargo supply could be done commercially. Heh, I could even see a version of Dragon soft-landing a couple tons of cargo next to an Outpost. Though for a basic Outpost discussion/design, we could start another thread
Realistically plan on 1x1B launch plus additional commercial LVs eg FH, A6 and Vulcan, per lunar mission. Crew go on SLS while commercial LVs deliver lander/landers and fuel to staging post. In case of large crew rovers, they maybe landed separate to crew, using commercial LVs. SLS would only launch once commercial LVs have completed their work.
I have given up on SLS-Orion. They are never going to accomplish anything.
Quote from: TomH on 05/14/2016 03:23 amI have given up on SLS-Orion. They are never going to accomplish anything.Whenever I see the short sighted arguments back and forth for SLS to be cancelled or for SLS to do all the work I am reminded of what it took to get to this point. It has been 44 years since the last moon landing. In my own time on this planet I can remember the late '90s and early 2000s when NASA couldn't even discuss going beyond LEO in the foreseeable future. I remember the calls from some after Columbia for manned spaceflight to be abandoned altogether. We have come a long way since then. The fact that we will soon have a wealth of capability with SLS/FH for BEO missions is a blessing. Instead of endless arguments over which is the more "perfect" system can we please use what we have to actually do something instead of just talking about it? No system is perfectly sustainable or perfectly made. Be grateful for what we have and don't try to destroy a BEO capability that is years in the making just because it doesn't match up with what you think should happen.Rant over. Continue with your regularly scheduled discussion.
3. What it took to get to this point....this point is actually loss of ground.
4. In MY time on this planet, I remember seeing six manned lunar landings in a matter of months. YOUR time on this planet....well....I'm sad we regressed during that time.5. Use what we have to do something? What we have isn't capable of doing anything. We had MORE capable architecture when I was a teenager almost 5 decades ago.
6. Be grateful for what we have??? Um...NO. Throwing good money after bad is foolish. It's time to let go of that albatross. (The thing is so expensive that there is no money for payloads...not for Mars, which is what they say the thing is for. Orion isn't Mars capable. There isn't even money for a lunar lander.) SpaceX' architecture is going to be more cost effective by between one and two orders of magnitude. It's time to get on the right ship.
Instead of endless arguments over which is the more "perfect" system can we please use what we have to actually do something instead of just talking about it? No system is perfectly sustainable or perfectly made. Be grateful for what we have and don't try to destroy a BEO capability that is years in the making just because it doesn't match up with what you think should happen.
Good grief so much wretched hand wringing !Flight metal is being bent, the SLS/Orion stack will fly BEO unmanned in late 2018 ( assuming a successful launch! ) and BFR will not even be past PDR and may never make it beyond Powerpoint . SLS is a heavy lift tool, it is up to future administrations to decide if and how it will be used. But if it is used it can plug into many exploration architectures - both alone or in concert with commercial - as the first element of moving big stuff upstairs.Be thankful that serious talk of BEO is happening now, it has been a long time coming for us true believers and might still die on the vine ...
The SLS does have missions, after first 2-3 shake down flights. They will do extended missions in cislunar space with EAM, this has been given initial funding.
I want to move forward; this is only moving backwards.