Russian push for 2012 Moon shot

[Sergi Manstov]

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/content/?id=4072

[Chris Bergin]

Sorry about the pic of Nikolai - damn thing won't resize properly.

Interesting how the Russians tend to aim their information to immediately follow what the US media is angling as negative progression of the VSE. I would assume that's coincidence, right

[tommy]

What would it mean to Americans if the Russians beat the US to Mars by about 10 years? Would they be bothered, or would they be really upset?

[MKremer]

If the press didn't make a big deal out of it, I think a good majority in the U.S. wouldn't care much about it. The press certainly *would* make a big deal out of it, though, and affect and skew opinion as though it were a national shame.

[Chris Bergin]

And needless to say this is simply an option, a possibility.

I also simply don't feel any notion of a race, between any effort on Moon and Mars missions. Even the Chinese don't seem to all that concerned about US plans, just what they can do themselves (and with the Russians).

Shame, as a bit of chest beating from the Chinese wouldn't go amiss in giving the VSE a bit of a political boost.

[krrr]

Well I guess it won't really happen that way. However, Sevastianov's claim is not totally absurd.

By 2012, Russia should finally have a cryogenic upper stage (KVRB) which, launched by Proton or Angara-5, would serve as a trans-lunar insertion stage. It would dock in LEO with another, possibly Fregat-derived stage (around 7 tonnes), and a manned Soyuz. The KVRB would do the TLI and the Fregat would be responsible for LOI and TEI (possibly with a little help from the Soyuz' own propulsion). So one Proton and two Soyuz launches would enable a lunar orbital flight.

The harder part is, of course, the lunar lander. A small (~9 tonnes) lander could be brought into lunar orbit in a similar fashion as the orbital Soyuz. There it would rendezvous with the manned Soyuz for an Apollo-style landing.

[nacnud]

The lander could be simmilar to spacedevs rocket chairs. In fact the NK lander wasn't far off that idea.

[Dogsbd]

This sounds to me like another public relations exercise from the Russians this time coming from Sevastianov. Sure the Russians could do this and many other things, IF the government ponies up the cash to do so. Likewise the US could return to the Moon by 2012 (or sooner) and with more than just a tiny NK like lander IF the US government was willing to pay for such a “get there quick” plan.

And if we’re talking “what ifs” based on governments paying the bills, NASA could likely have a man on Mars with 10 years if they choose to do so.

But I don’t think the US government is going to make doing these things such a high priority, nor will the Russian government.

[Andy L]

I've never considered the Russians as people who go for propoganda. They've always been pretty much straight on their information.

[Sergi Manstov]

Andy L - 25/11/2005  4:43 AM

I've never considered the Russians as people who go for propoganda. They've always been pretty much straight on their information.

Do you not remember the Soviet Union

Yes, it is completely different now. But if big plans is what likes to be said, big plans will not be hidden!

[lmike]

From the article: "...However, the Russians have already gone on the record in announcing a wish to work with the Chinese on a potential manned mission to the Red Planet by 2020..."

Any details/links?  I've only read a short blurb about Moon cooperation (manned/robotic unspecified) in the gas/oil deal press-release.

[lmike]

Andy L - 25/11/2005  4:43 AM

I've never considered the Russians as people who go for propoganda. They've always been pretty much straight on their information.

I assume you don't read much official press in Russian.  Especially the political commentaries/press releases.  One would think a new Cold War is on...

[realtime]

lmike - 26/11/2005  4:40 AM

From the article: "...However, the Russians have already gone on the record in announcing a wish to work with the Chinese on a potential manned mission to the Red Planet by 2020..."

Any details/links?  I've only read a short blurb about Moon cooperation (manned/robotic unspecified) in the gas/oil deal press-release.

The Russian space program relies on foreign funding for its survival.  Should China develop deeper pockets by 2020, I'm sure the Russians would love their business.  

I think that's unlikely.  The Chinese well know (and US business has yet to learn), that outsourcing means that both wealth AND expertise go to the foreign "partner" while the domestic capability withers.   Since the Chinese space program is entirely controlled by the People's Liberation Army, and space access is of high military value, the Chinese will enter into no agreement where they do not control both the technology and the means of production.

The best the Russians can hope for in such a deal is licensing and startup contracting fees.

[Sergi Manstov]

lmike - 26/11/2005  3:41 AM

Andy L - 25/11/2005  4:43 AM

I've never considered the Russians as people who go for propoganda. They've always been pretty much straight on their information.

I assume you don't read much official press in Russian.  Especially the political commentaries/press releases.  One would think a new Cold War is on...

Do you have any examples to share as it may be in the translation. Russia has no reason to give America any negativity or hostility, they have enough headaches of their own! If you want to look at who's rattling sabres in recent years look no further than home (if you are American) and still we have supported you. Putin is more concerned about holding as much power in the Kremlin than he is in pointing out the hyprocacy of the Bush White House frowning at security measures in Checnya with one hand whilst and after having our support to invade a soviegn state.

It's all the same. Russia has no problems with America's VSE, so don't be upset with Russia if we can do faster and cheaper.

[lmike]

Sergi Manstov - 28/11/2005  2:27 AM

lmike - 26/11/2005  3:41 AM

Andy L - 25/11/2005  4:43 AM

I've never considered the Russians as people who go for propoganda. They've always been pretty much straight on their information.

I assume you don't read much official press in Russian.  Especially the political commentaries/press releases.  One would think a new Cold War is on...

Do you have any examples to share as it may be in the translation. Russia has no reason to give America any negativity or hostility, they have enough headaches of their own! If you want to look at who's rattling sabres in recent years look no further than home (if you are American) and still we have supported you. Putin is more concerned about holding as much power in the Kremlin than he is in pointing out the hyprocacy of the Bush White House frowning at security measures in Checnya with one hand whilst and after having our support to invade a soviegn state.
…

I don't keep a log of it, it is my general impression of reading news in Russian for 7 (and watching the NTV news sat channel) years now, but here's one (DO note, I said OFFICIAL news sources, there are some independent ones which maintain some sort of balance) : http://www.rian.ru/ Just search for 'S.SH.A' (the US) , and especially the editorials. These are some really nasty ones. Rossiyskaya gazeta, some of the Izvestia stuff (used to be a liberal outlet), the globalrus.ru. A lot of the commentarry is also totally clueless to what is happening in the US and the world.

Granted, the US media has not been too kind on Russia, either, and I lament that, but that is a different topic. *

…
It's all the same. Russia has no problems with America's VSE, so don't be upset with Russia if we can do faster and cheaper.

Don't project. I have a lot of doubts about the US VSE program as well... It's a different topic. It's a long story but I have been following the Russian space programs for a long time. There is nothing in the present announcements that hasn't been said before a gazillion times. Meanwhile, note that the Russian Federation has NO imaging or weather satellite of its own (and has to lease it from Europe and Asia) The major problem is that Russia has no space industry of its own at all! It's all a leftover from the SU days. It's yet to prove itself as a space-fairing nation (the Angara?) The Express is using the French transponder electronics, the bus is crap. The Yamal platform? Also crap by today's standards.

Anyways, I'll be glad if RU can do it 'faster and cheaper'. It doesn't matter to me who. I was just shocked at *manned* mission to the Red Planet in 2020 given the realities. I mean, don't you want to get a probe to the Moon at least, first?

*And about as clueless as to what is hapenning in Russia, too, I must add.

[lmike]

Heck, I'd just be glad if Putin ups the meager $10bil for 10 years budget (accounting for all the stealing and corruption as well)  The Glonass would get the bulk of the money, anyway (can't rely on those GPS recievers in the Mig cockpits, can we?).