FAA Permits/Licenses for BC; issues underlying procurement, Updates/Discussion

[TomH]

IDK if you have to be a BC resident to give input, but I'm for it:

https://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-starship-rocket-launches-boca-chica-environmental-assessment-faa-comments-2020-12?utm_campaign=sf-bi-ti&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&fbclid=IwAR3FymLaVRy64Gsiw9zat6xav-y81Tp_dYHWaT4b3vnqCjCMktvuemJp5d8

Thread title modified on 7-17-21 to reflect ongoing permitting issues.

Thread title modified again to satisfy members who believe posts have not been on topic.

[oiorionsbelt]

https://www.faa.gov/space/stakeholder_engagement/spacex_starship/

[spacenut]

Hope the FFA doesn't hold them up.  They could be orbital by the end of the year at the rate they are going. 

[CardBoardBoxProcessor]

Perhaps you mean next year? certainly not this year

[Lar]

Perhaps you mean next year? certainly not this year

Maybe he meant the next 12 months.

I got an invite to comment since I asked to be on the list. I wonder if they want non local comments? I am going to try.

[TomH]

If they don't get this approval quickly enough, I suppose they will begin having to barge SS and SH to KSC and fly from 39A. SS/SH on 39A and SLS on 39B at the same time would make a great photo.

[RedLineTrain]

If they don't get this approval quickly enough, I suppose they will begin having to barge SS and SH to KSC and fly from 39A. SS/SH on 39A and SLS on 39B at the same time would make a great photo.

Isn't SpaceX further behind on its environmental evaluation of 39A for the full stack?

[Ben the Space Brit]

Let's think about this. Seriously, taking off the space nerd hat, would you really like to have 2+ Saturn-V-class launches and RTLS events a day? That's what the local residents are being asked to think about.


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Fixed grammar error

[RedLineTrain]

Let's think about this. Seriously, taking off the space nerd hat, would you really have 2+ Saturn-V-class launches and RTLS events a day? That's what the local residents are being asked to think about.

What document shows what they are being asked to think about?  The web site is pretty vague.

[DigitalMan]

If folks are looking for things to think about, Texas intends to create a spaceport at Boca Chica, do you think Texas is determined enough to do it?

What do you think it means if a place is a spaceport?

[Alvian@IDN]

Let's think about this. Seriously, taking off the space nerd hat, would you really like to have 2+ Saturn-V-class launches and RTLS events a day? That's what the local residents are being asked to think about.


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Fixed grammar error

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1298019842356703232?s=19

[TomH]

Before the Space Force was formed, the USAF had become very interested in the abilities of SS/SH. I am wondering whether the military or congress might eventually declare SS/SH to be vital to national security and whether that would influence FAA decisions. Would it be any counterweight against environmental status? I also wonder if such a declaration could be cited in a federal claim of imminent domain regarding BC. Imminent domain is usually reserved for something that becomes government property or urban renewal. In Kelo v. City of New London 2005, SCOTUS allowed New London, CT to seize private land and then turn it over to a private developer to further economic development which would increase tax revenue to the city. SCOTUS ruled this as permissible "public use" under the Takings Clause of the Fifth Amendment. (Ironically, the redevelopment never occurred.) In any case, there is precedent for the US government potentially to take land both from the state of TX and BC residents and then turn it over to SX with certain stipulations stated in the transfer. Of course, that could stir up an incredible hornets' nest.

I do not want to stray so far from my own OP that this becomes something which belongs in Space Policy. Nevertheless, this issue has the potential to become a serious impediment to SS/SH making any initial orbital flights. SpaceX's current permit does not allow that and that permit took years to negotiate. I am wondering whether special circumstances directives from USSF or congress will allow the faster issuance of this permit, or whether the first orbital launches will have to be made from 39A or some unknown offshore location. I do think this issue has the potential to impinge the greatest delay upon the program.

[ulm_atms]

Let's think about this. Seriously, taking off the space nerd hat, would you really like to have 2+ Saturn-V-class launches and RTLS events a day? That's what the local residents are being asked to think about.


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Fixed grammar error

Me personally?....HELL YEA!!!...If I lived there........  Personally getting to watch space transportation get off the ground...(yea,yea..pun not intended...well maybe  ).....would be awesome.

But I do get what you mean by this question 

[M.E.T.]

How would one have a spaceport ANYWHERE if local residents always have to be happy with it? No one wants to have rockets going off in their neighbourhood on a daily basis, but it is still necessary.

Someone, somewhere is going to be unhappy, wherever you put the launch facility. No getting around it.

[ANTIcarrot]

Let's think about this. Seriously, taking off the space nerd hat, would you really like to have 2+ Saturn-V-class launches and RTLS events a day?

I think it will be a loooooooong time before SpaceX gets anywhere near two orbital flights per day on a regular basis. Remember you don't just need a rocket for that, but also the cargo/passenger handling facilities, including separate facilities for SpaceForce launches, and the fuel storage/generation, and transport links to get everything on site...

Any number of those things would be five year projects all by themselves.

[ThatOldJanxSpirit]

No one wants to have rockets going off in their neighbourhood on a daily basis...

Speak for yourself!

[spacenut]

Let's think about this. Seriously, taking off the space nerd hat, would you really like to have 2+ Saturn-V-class launches and RTLS events a day?

I think it will be a loooooooong time before SpaceX gets anywhere near two orbital flights per day on a regular basis. Remember you don't just need a rocket for that, but also the cargo/passenger handling facilities, including separate facilities for SpaceForce launches, and the fuel storage/generation, and transport links to get everything on site...

Any number of those things would be five year projects all by themselves.

It will be faster than 5 years.  It has only been about a year ago that there was almost nothing at Boca Chica.  They are already building more Starships and have begun the Superheavy booster.  Everyone seems to forget that they have a contract to put 12,000 Starlink satellites in orbit within 5 years, starting last year.  They only have about 900 in orbit now in one year.  They are going to use Starship Superheavy to launch 200-300 at one time when they get it operational.  They need it ASAP to get Starlink finished.  I say within 2 years they will have them running on a regular basis. 

They are supposed to do the Dear Moon Project in 2022-2023.  It will have to be operational by then to be able to carry the paying customers.  Musk is not only on his time own time schedule, but Starlinks, Dear Moon, and NASA wants it operational for their Cis-Lunar program also. 

I believe they will test the booster with fewer engines, then launch Starship into orbit without a payload for testing.  The Full up 28 engine booster may have to be launched offshore due to noise.  It will be the most powerful booster ever, like 12-14 million lbs thrust.  Saturn V had 7.5 million lbs thrust.  So it will probably be testing at Saturn V levels to start with at Boca Chica. 

Two per day could not only be offshore Boca Chica, but with the Cape launch facilities, they could launch one from each location.  They also want to launch a flotilla of cargo ships to Mars during the Mars synod when closest to earth.  Maybe not two per day in 5 years, but it won't be a long time.  I wouldn't be surprised though. 

Oh, and don't forget, for every Mars rocket and/or moon rocket, they have to launch 4-6 tanker Starships to fully fuel them up when fully loaded with cargo.  Tankers have to be launched in fairly fast order, unless they put some in orbit for use as orbital depots to be filled on a regular bases to any trips cis-lunar or to Mars can top off their tanks quickly on their way. 

[Jcc]

Let's think about this. Seriously, taking off the space nerd hat, would you really like to have 2+ Saturn-V-class launches and RTLS events a day?

I think it will be a loooooooong time before SpaceX gets anywhere near two orbital flights per day on a regular basis. Remember you don't just need a rocket for that, but also the cargo/passenger handling facilities, including separate facilities for SpaceForce launches, and the fuel storage/generation, and transport links to get everything on site...

Any number of those things would be five year projects all by themselves.

SpaceX is getting to where they do a 5 year project in under a year. But sure, it will take a few years to make all these things happen.

[RedLineTrain]

Before the Space Force was formed, the USAF had become very interested in the abilities of SS/SH. I am wondering whether the military or congress might eventually declare SS/SH to be vital to national security and whether that would influence FAA decisions. Would it be any counterweight against environmental status?

Yes, national security concerns and foreign affairs interests are explicitly part of the environmental assessment through imperatives listed in the Commercial Space Act.  Usually, projects are negative to national security and foreign policy, but in this case it could be positive (not including the Mexican border issues).  That said, I don't know that SpaceX or the FAA have emphasized these aspects before for commercial spaceports.

Additionally, the Commercial Space Act's imperatives include the promotion of commercial space activities.  It could be construed as something of a conflict of interest, given that the FAA is also assumed to be an even-handed judger of whether and how much something creates environmental impact.

It seems like a concerned citizen could mention all of these things in a comment.  It could be effective in getting SpaceX across the line.

[Cabbage123]

Those who stand to be most impacted by SpaceX's plans are retiree-age homeowners of Boca Chica Village, which is a small community now located amid the company's Starship factory complex. Nearly all the owners flocked to the area long before the SpaceX's arrival, seeking a quiet life in a serene, wildlife-rich setting. Most sold their properties to the company in a protracted buyout effort, but a handful have repeatedly declined to sell, arguing SpaceX's offer wouldn't allow them to purchase a similar property in a similar area.

Even if there was significant resistance from residents, and even if that swayed the FAA, there is probably a fairly cheap (albeit over market value) solution to most of the complaints.