Author Topic: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid  (Read 57517 times)

Offline GWH

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Re: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid
« Reply #60 on: 11/05/2019 10:03 pm »
Maybe they want to air start an RS25? Wonder if anyone had ever thought of that ;D ;D ;D

Offline John Santos

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Re: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid
« Reply #61 on: 11/05/2019 10:29 pm »
Maybe they want to air start an RS25? Wonder if anyone had ever thought of that ;D ;D ;D
J2?

Offline MATTBLAK

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Re: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid
« Reply #62 on: 11/05/2019 10:32 pm »
Could just be a stretched Delta IV-H stage with a stronger upper engine; like an MB-60. Or maybe the J-2X is coming back from the dead...
"Those who can't, Blog".   'Space Cadets' of the World - Let us UNITE!! (crickets chirping)

Offline ncb1397

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Re: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid
« Reply #63 on: 11/05/2019 10:34 pm »
Seriously guys? The nozzles from the other engines are obscured..

« Last Edit: 11/05/2019 10:34 pm by ncb1397 »

Offline jadebenn

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Re: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid
« Reply #64 on: 11/05/2019 10:37 pm »
No, different angle. The other engines should be visible.


Offline Captain Crutch

Re: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid
« Reply #65 on: 11/05/2019 11:49 pm »
No, different angle. The other engines should be visible.


Seems like there’s atleast one more engine to me...

Offline ncb1397

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Re: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid
« Reply #66 on: 11/05/2019 11:55 pm »
I think the design of the lander is a bit more interesting. Appears to be 12 main engines on the descent stage and 8 on the ascent stage with a common engine design. It appears to be a split habitat with egress and ingress going through the lower habitable volume (that likely also functions as an air lock). One body mounted fixed solar panel on the ascent stage and 2 deployable solar panels on the descent stage. 4 deployable landing gear.

edit: One other observation is that there appears to be a hinged protective cover on the top mounted docking port.
« Last Edit: 11/06/2019 12:10 am by ncb1397 »

Offline jadebenn

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Re: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid
« Reply #67 on: 11/05/2019 11:57 pm »
Seems like there’s atleast one more engine to me...
Ah damn, I think you're right. It looks like they left the "firing" effect off the others, which contributed to it seeming like there was only a single engine in the render.

False alarm!
« Last Edit: 11/05/2019 11:58 pm by jadebenn »

Online Athelstane

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Re: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid
« Reply #68 on: 11/06/2019 03:56 am »
It's impossible to even try to evaluate the technical merits of this architecture, since all we have so far are two renders, and a press release.

The politics of the decision are little more apparent. Basically, they've resurrected Constellation, only with a second Ares V replacing the Stick. And Boeing building almost everything.

In their favor, it's obvious that Boeing has friendly ears on the Hill, as we saw when multiple congressmen were literally reciting Doug Cooke's op-ed in the hearings over the last several weeks, and that doesn't even count one very important friend over in the Senate. If this isn't enough to win Boeing the Option A award, it will make it politically harder to avoid giving them Option B.

Working against them will be the strong desire to spread the funding around. Blue Origin's group bid would certainly meet that desire in spades. Boeing doesn't have the same kind of major partners. Of course that also is probably true of SpaceX's bid (which we know nothing about yet, to be sure). Likewise, ditching Gateway will step on some toes, inside the agency and out, especially given international interest in contributing to it.

Sliding them to Option B would also have the advantage of not requiring EUS to be ready in 2024, something that will require some more serious funding up front for a major stage that hasn't reached CDR yet. Needing to launch two SLS Block 1B's for each mission obviously won't be cheap either, regardless of which set of cost estimates you work from; but perhaps Boeing is arguing that this would be offset by dispensing with Gateway and any commercial launches.
« Last Edit: 11/06/2019 04:18 am by Athelstane »

Online Athelstane

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Re: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid
« Reply #69 on: 11/06/2019 04:08 am »
Other than NASA is going to use a Delta IV Heavy upper stage, when was money appropriated for the Block 1B upper stage (EUS)?  If it has been recently appropriated, it will be 3-4 years before it is built as slow as NASA and Boeing goes. 

2016:
Quote
Provided further, That of the amounts
provided for SLS, not less than $85,000,000 shall be for enhanced upper
stage development
https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/2029/text

2017:
Quote
Provided further, That of the amounts
provided for SLS, not less than $300,000,000 shall be for Exploration
Upper Stage development
https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/244/text

2018:
Quote
Provided further, That of the amounts
provided for SLS, not less than $300,000,000 shall be for Exploration
Upper Stage development
https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/1625/text

2019:
Quote
Provided further, That of the amounts
provided for SLS, not less than $150,000,000 shall be for Exploration
Upper Stage development
https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-joint-resolution/31/text

So, basically, $835 million appropriated, to date. Right? Which has got it through PDR, I believe, but not CDR yet. Some of which apparently has been diverted to cover core development cost overruns, though we do not know how much.

Do we have a total cost projection of EUS development and integration from NASA yet? I've not seen any yet, but I could have overlooked it.
« Last Edit: 11/06/2019 04:19 am by Athelstane »

Offline helixdq

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Re: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid
« Reply #70 on: 11/06/2019 08:28 am »
I am really liking the descent stage design with airlock/inner chamber Boeing is going for.
They would be leaving something useful on the surface, that could potentially function as a mini-outpost/storage space for future missions, also no venting of the entire atmosphere out when you leave is always a plus. And it has a cute, homey feel.

Obviously if they assume they get an SLS 1b flight all to themselves they are working with totally different mass and volume margins compared to the Blue Origin coallition and their submarine/lift thing.

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid
« Reply #71 on: 11/06/2019 08:29 am »
Boeing have proven they can't deliver look at how behind SLS is, add EUS plus lander and we are looking at 2034 for lunar landing. Plus a budget blow out that would put JWST program to shame. At least JWST had some serious engineering hurdles to overcome.

Offline Proponent

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Re: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid
« Reply #72 on: 11/06/2019 11:58 am »
How does lander handle boiloff at gateway while waiting months for crew mission

For hydrogen it would be a big deal, but lox and methane are sometimes referred to as "space-storeable."

Offline envy887

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Re: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid
« Reply #73 on: 11/06/2019 12:42 pm »
How does lander handle boiloff at gateway while waiting months for crew mission

For hydrogen it would be a big deal, but lox and methane are sometimes referred to as "space-storeable."

Boeing is partnering with Intuitive Machines who have been developing methalox engines, so that seems likely.

Offline Proponent

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Re: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid
« Reply #74 on: 11/06/2019 12:44 pm »
So if Boeing wins the bid, they will have to launch two SLS's to get astronauts in Orion and the lander to the moon by in space docking.  Wow, a moon landing for about $3 billion or more per landing.  Not counting the LOP-G station.  This is way expensive to use the SLS.
If you're that confident the bid will be financially uncompetitive, then you should have nothing to worry about.

It's not like there are other costs beside launch costs that factor into bidding a lunar lander. Development of new technology is free as we all know, and there is no possibility that a two-stage SLS-launched design might be easier and cheaper to develop than a three-stage commercially-launched design, or that those cost-savings might be enough to offset the higher launch costs, especially since we're only considering SLS marginal costs. ::)

The same Congress approved CxP and then refused to fully fund it and that wrote SLS's engineering specs into law with no visible input from engineers is perfectly capable of imposing a financially uncompetitive proposal from a politically connected vendor on NASA.

Quote
In all seriousness, do you think Boeing is stupid? If they didn't think an SLS-launched bid was competitive they wouldn't propose it.

There is nothing stupid about Boeing proposing this.  It stands a good chance of becoming another of the company's cash cows, which is exactly what its shareholders want.

Offline woods170

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Re: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid
« Reply #75 on: 11/06/2019 04:37 pm »
There is nothing stupid about Boeing proposing this.  It stands a good chance of becoming another of the company's cash cows, which is exactly what its shareholders Richard Shelby wants.

There. Fixed that for ya.

Offline ncb1397

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Re: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid
« Reply #76 on: 11/06/2019 05:02 pm »
There is nothing stupid about Boeing proposing this.  It stands a good chance of becoming another of the company's cash cows, which is exactly what its shareholders Richard Shelby wants.

There. Fixed that for ya.

He is an Alabama partisan, not a Boeing partisan...

Quote
U.S. Sen. Richard Shelby, R-Tuscaloosa, on Thursday ripped top Pentagon officials, including Defense Secretary Robert Gates, for their handling of the Air Force tanker competition, accusing them of tilting the selection criteria in favor of Boeing Co.

"One would think that our Air Force's top priority would be to ensure that our men and women in uniform have the best, most capable equipment. Clearly that is not the case," Shelby said in a speech on the Senate floor.
https://www.al.com/live/2009/10/us_sen_richard_shelby_accuses.html

Offline SWGlassPit

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Re: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid
« Reply #77 on: 11/06/2019 05:42 pm »
There is nothing stupid about Boeing proposing this.  It stands a good chance of becoming another of the company's cash cows, which is exactly what its shareholders want.

I promise you, nothing coming out of the space exploration domain is a cash cow.

Don't believe me?  Look up the shareholder reports.  Revenue from space exploration is in the noise.

Offline Eric Hedman

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Re: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid
« Reply #78 on: 11/06/2019 06:07 pm »
My first thought looking at the descent stage is the the solar panels on it could be designed to be easily removed and used on a surface habitat.

Offline Proponent

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Re: Boeing to propose SLS-launched lander for HLS bid
« Reply #79 on: 11/06/2019 06:27 pm »
I promise you, nothing coming out of the space exploration domain is a cash cow.

Don't believe me?  Look up the shareholder reports.  Revenue from space exploration is in the noise.

It's small as a fraction of Boeing's business, but the resources committed by Boeing are also small.  Why would Boeing shareholders not want more cost-plus contracts?

Tags: Boeing NASA SLS HLS lander 
 

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