Author Topic: NASA Considering Flying EM-1 With Commercial Launchers  (Read 146882 times)

Offline gongora

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Re: NASA Considering Flying EM-1 With Commercial Launchers
« Reply #20 on: 03/13/2019 02:26 pm »
For me the key issue remains this rendez vous and docking thing...
Why is that likely to be an issue? Vehicles dock with the ISS on a regular basis.  Heck, even Apollo involved the Command Vehicle "docking" with the LEM.  Isn't this a solved problem?

A US vehicle autonomously docked with ISS for the first time this month.

Offline Tulse

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Re: NASA Considering Flying EM-1 With Commercial Launchers
« Reply #21 on: 03/13/2019 02:32 pm »
Not for EM-1. The first mission which was supposed to perform docking so far was EM-3 which is much later.
Sure, but such capability is not completely untested (compared to, say, refuelling in orbit).  We have a large number of examples of craft that can do this, and I believe Orion is intended to do this eventually, so this is not a feature way outside of its potential capabilities.

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: Re: Orion Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #22 on: 03/13/2019 02:41 pm »
If they are that desperate that says a lot about the SLS issues.

The reason for the rush is that Trump wants something to show as his own achievement with NASA before the 2020 election.

And since EM-1 is planned to be uncrewed, it is possible they could rush the development of the needed systems since they don't have to be "human-rated" (though what's the point of a test unless it returns valid data for future use).
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline hektor

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Re: NASA Considering Flying EM-1 With Commercial Launchers
« Reply #23 on: 03/13/2019 02:44 pm »
Yes but for instance it is rarely foreseen to apply a large and long acceleration by a rocket on the docked combination.

For me this is new territory. And once again I am not sure that the provisions for docking are currently implemented on the Orion for EM-1. For instance a docking port needs power, mechanical connection with the structure, computer commands, etc. We are talking of a spacecraft whose construction is nearly complete.

Offline programmerdan

Correct, and at the moment it's literal fantasy as to my knowledge there is no funding for such a radical departure from current plan.

The timing here is critical, and definitely -- carrot and stick. Stick? SLS is delayed, we get neither SLS nor Orion validation before end of this administration, and potentially even longer then that. Carrot? Free up some money, and we can push commercial vendors willing to move fast to achieve at minimum, Orion validation before end of this administration.

We'll see who takes the bait, if at all.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: NASA Considering Flying EM-1 With Commercial Launchers
« Reply #25 on: 03/13/2019 02:59 pm »
https://twitter.com/jimbridenstine/status/1105859576023445506

Quote
We need to consider all options to meet the Exploration Mission-1 target launch date of June 2020, including launching on commercial rockets.

Offline jarmumd

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Re: NASA Considering Flying EM-1 With Commercial Launchers
« Reply #26 on: 03/13/2019 03:02 pm »
Yes but for instance it is rarely foreseen to apply a large and long acceleration by a rocket on the docked combination.

For me this is new territory. And once again I am not sure that the provisions for docking are currently implemented on the Orion for EM-1. For instance a docking port needs power, mechanical connection with the structure, computer commands, etc. We are talking of a spacecraft whose construction is nearly complete.

Part of the IDSS standard is for the forces resulting from large thrusts, ie trans lunar injections.  Any system built to that spec can handle the loads.

If EM-1 doesn't have mechanical/electrical connections for docking, that would be a big integration issue.

Offline abaddon

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Re: NASA Considering Flying EM-1 With Commercial Launchers
« Reply #27 on: 03/13/2019 03:07 pm »
I feel like I'm watching The Martian.  What's next, a secret Chinese heavy-lift launcher?

Offline punder

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Re: NASA Considering Flying EM-1 With Commercial Launchers
« Reply #28 on: 03/13/2019 03:13 pm »
Ha ha! Yesterday I said this in the SLS General thread:

"Not my idea, but a dual FH EC mission would still be cheaper than SLS. Could they use the NDS for docking, or is it not rated for that kind of acceleration?

Oh who am I kidding, Shelby's going to put EC back on SLS, and NASA would never go for the dual launch anyway."

And this morning I wake up to the news. If they are considering a dual launch for Orion, why not for Europa Clipper as well. Prove it works once, it means you can use the technique for an arbitrary number of launches (well, restricted by boiloff rates and such) to put big payloads anywhere.

(Setting aside SH/SS, which really is a variation of the same concept)

Offline punder

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Re: Re: Orion Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #29 on: 03/13/2019 03:27 pm »
The reason for the rush is that Trump wants something to show as his own achievement with NASA before the 2020 election.

Maybe. It's also possible that Bridenstine is a lot smarter and more committed to spaceflight than a lot of people thought.

Personally, I'm sure he's an INTJ.   ;)

Offline ncb1397

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Re: NASA Considering Flying EM-1 With Commercial Launchers
« Reply #30 on: 03/13/2019 03:30 pm »
I feel like I'm watching The Martian.  What's next, a secret Chinese heavy-lift launcher?

Maybe NASA should just pretend that Mark Watney is trapped in orbit around the moon after his Mars escape and has 15 months of consumables left.

Offline yokem55

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Re: NASA Considering Flying EM-1 With Commercial Launchers
« Reply #31 on: 03/13/2019 03:34 pm »
The simplest profile I'm thinking on this would be to launch Orion and the SM into a 2 hour orbit at the 28° ascending node on Falcon heavy. It would need an aerodynamic skirt similar to the boat tail on the falcon fairing, but that's about it. Then 12 (28° descending node) or 24 hours later, Delta Heavy could launch a fully fueled ICPS to the same orbit with a hopefully fast rendezvous and docking before the the first apogee. Then a TLI burn could happen at the first perigree. This approach would probably minimize the need for new hardware, or LV capabilities as long as the ICPS had enough left over performance after getting to orbit.

Going the other way around, Orion on Delta and an upper stage in the Falcon fairing would mean figuring out how to fuel it on launch day. Maybe a solid could go up on a falcon heavy, but I'm pretty sure there aren't any solid Star motors big enough to do the TLI burn though.

Offline rockets4life97

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Re: NASA Considering Flying EM-1 With Commercial Launchers
« Reply #32 on: 03/13/2019 03:37 pm »
It seems unlikely to me that ULA could procure 2 Delta IV Heavies in 15 months. SpaceX might be able to pull that off (especially if you are willing to go re-used). The 1 FH and 1 D4H is more likely.

Offline ncb1397

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Re: NASA Considering Flying EM-1 With Commercial Launchers
« Reply #33 on: 03/13/2019 03:41 pm »
It seems unlikely to me that ULA could procure 2 Delta IV Heavies in 15 months. SpaceX might be able to pull that off (especially if you are willing to go re-used). The 1 FH and 1 D4H is more likely.

There are two NRO payloads slated to go up on Delta IV Heavy between now and mid-2020 - NROL-44 and NROL-82. That would have to be a high level decision to bump those in favor of EM-1.

Offline mrhuggy

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Re: NASA Considering Flying EM-1 With Commercial Launchers
« Reply #34 on: 03/13/2019 03:56 pm »
I can't see any of the commercial dual launch options been viable in that time line. The likelihood is that SLS is the only option for that mission. There is an outside possibility of a single commercial launch ability been ready on time. The idea of SpaceX or Blue Origin launching Orion on Starship or New Glen would be a killer to SLS.

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: NASA Considering Flying EM-1 With Commercial Launchers
« Reply #35 on: 03/13/2019 04:00 pm »
My sense is that the selection will go to the "Alabama Gang" and use EFT-1 as a rational to justify it...
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
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Offline yokem55

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Re: NASA Considering Flying EM-1 With Commercial Launchers
« Reply #36 on: 03/13/2019 04:00 pm »
It seems unlikely to me that ULA could procure 2 Delta IV Heavies in 15 months. SpaceX might be able to pull that off (especially if you are willing to go re-used). The 1 FH and 1 D4H is more likely.
As long as ULA can rustle up a Delta heavy in time, the one of each approach would have to do. As enthusiastic as SpaceX is about fast turnarounds, I think the fastest they'd be able to do 2 Falcon Heavies from 39a would be in the neighborhood 2 weeks between each launch, if they had all 6 boosters ready to go. Would Orion and the SM be able to loiter in LEO that long?

Offline whitelancer64

Probably the only two options are the Delta IV Heavy (bonus, b/c they have already designed an adapter for it) (although they would have to only partially fill the fuel for the SM) and Falcon Heavy, which would mean a lot more work. Either way, for any other rocket than the Delta IV Heavy, NASA would need to design and build an adapter of some kind. That severely limits the options, especially if they want to launch by 2020.
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Offline Lars-J

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Re: NASA Considering Flying EM-1 With Commercial Launchers
« Reply #38 on: 03/13/2019 04:09 pm »
This does not seem like a practical idea (within the stated time frame) - but it may serve another purpose.... To light a FIRE under the SLS and Orion contractors behinds, anything to make them feel like the actually have to perform in a timely manner.

The presidents budget request, and now this. SLS and Orion contractors cannot afford to pretend like nothing is happening. Either they start performing better or this could be the beginning of the end.

Offline punder

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Re: NASA Considering Flying EM-1 With Commercial Launchers
« Reply #39 on: 03/13/2019 04:10 pm »
It seems unlikely to me that ULA could procure 2 Delta IV Heavies in 15 months. SpaceX might be able to pull that off (especially if you are willing to go re-used). The 1 FH and 1 D4H is more likely.
As long as ULA can rustle up a Delta heavy in time, the one of each approach would have to do. As enthusiastic as SpaceX is about fast turnarounds, I think the fastest they'd be able to do 2 Falcon Heavies from 39a would be in the neighborhood 2 weeks between each launch, if they had all 6 boosters ready to go. Would Orion and the SM be able to loiter in LEO that long?

Surely this has been answered a thousand times, but would it be impossible to revamp SLC40 for FH? SpaceX sure seems able to move on ground construction when it needs to.

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