CNES ESA Prometheus / Callisto proposal

[friendly3]

Can we make a list of lessons learned and do not's for future technology development programs.
This went as to be expected. sadly but the truth.

This is also the case for Themis.
Does anyone know the cumulative run time of Prometheus M engines? And is P5 already operational?
I expect they require thousand's of seconds of runtime before implementation into a launcher can be considered.
But each and every second of engine test time results in noise and CO2 emissions. And those are to be avoided. 

About the landing legs, I dare you to show that this is more expansive than how SpaceX and/or Blue Origin developed their landing legs. I think the two demonstrators are complementary to each other.

You're making this absurd hypothesis, it should be up to you to prove it.
But to disprove it is so easy: take the development cost of Crew Dragon + Starliner, then subtract the development cost of any of these two and the cost of the one left will be lower than both.
And it works with anything else:  Dragon 1 + Cygnus minus one of these two, SpaceX' HLS + BO's HLS minus one of these two.
It even works with three versus two: take the development costs of Dragon + Cygnus + Dreamchaser, then subtract any of these three and the development costs will be lower.
In fact you could take the development cost of anything + a diet Coke, then subtract the cost of the diet Coke and it will always be lower.
Math is a b*tch, you can't argue with her .

[TheKutKu]

This is also the case for Themis.
Does anyone know the cumulative run time of Prometheus M engines?

0 seconds, the Prometheus that fired last year’s campaigns was an hybrid with a Vulcain 2.1 combustion chamber, “Prometheus M", that is the real prototypes were supposed to do their first static fire at lampoldshausen in late 2023 (after being delayed from late 2021) but haven’t been tested.

To be fair when Prometheus started there actually wasn’t any alternative to arianegroup/ASL* for making large hydrocarbon engines. This was just something that Europe lacked experience in (bar 60 yo British one) it tooK 20 years for the Chinese to develop theirs too, and more than a decade for the Indians, and physics’s the same everywhere, no reason why a German or French team should go any faster than an Indian one.

In the meantime a bunch of European companies have gotten experience making small hydrocarbon engines, hopefully They can efficiently move to larger ones.

Some of the recent development in China and America (as well as the precedent in Cold War usa and ussr) show that a company going from first engine got fire to first engine flight in say,  A year, is perfectly plausible.

*Airbus and Safran also separately had their experience of R&D on methalox engines in the previous decade in cooperation with Russia and Japan

[Mamut]

https://twitter.com/AndrewParsonson/status/1837034090685510112

DLR Begins Testing Fairing for Callisto Reusable Booster Demonstrator

The German space agency DLR has announced that it has begun testing the qualification model of a fairing that will be used aboard the reusable booster demonstrator, Callisto.

Work on the Cooperative Action Leading to Launcher Innovation in Stage Toss back Operations (Callisto) demonstrator began in 2015 as a joint effort between CNES, DLR, and Japan’s national space agency, JAXA. The aim of the project is to mature key technologies that will enable the development of future reusable launch vehicles.

Once complete, Callisto will stand at approximately 13 metres tall and have a lift-off mass of around four tonnes. The demonstrator is expected to be launched on its inaugural flight between late 2025 and early 2026 from the Guiana Space Centre’s revamped Diamant launch facility. A total of 10 test flights are planned.

In an 18 September update, the DLR Institute of Structures and Design revealed that the qualification model of the demonstrator’s fairing was in the middle of a test campaign. The update added that it had just completed “shaker tests” at the DLR Institute of Space Systems’ facilities in Bremen.

The demonstrator’s fairing will reduce aerodynamic drag during ascent and house the GNSS antenna. In addition to the fairing, DLR is also responsible for the control surfaces, liquid hydrogen tank, flight software, approach and landing system, and navigation system.

According to a CNES timeline, the project’s detailed design phase is expected to be completed before the end of 2024. Vehicle integration will then be completed in Japan in 2025, clearing the way for an inaugural flight.

[Mamut]

[woods170]

https://twitter.com/AndrewParsonson/status/1837034090685510112

DLR Begins Testing Fairing for Callisto Reusable Booster Demonstrator

The German space agency DLR has announced that it has begun testing the qualification model of a fairing that will be used aboard the reusable booster demonstrator, Callisto.

Work on the Cooperative Action Leading to Launcher Innovation in Stage Toss back Operations (Callisto) demonstrator began in 2015 as a joint effort between CNES, DLR, and Japan’s national space agency, JAXA. The aim of the project is to mature key technologies that will enable the development of future reusable launch vehicles.

Once complete, Callisto will stand at approximately 13 metres tall and have a lift-off mass of around four tonnes. The demonstrator is expected to be launched on its inaugural flight between late 2025 and early 2026 from the Guiana Space Centre’s revamped Diamant launch facility. A total of 10 test flights are planned.

In an 18 September update, the DLR Institute of Structures and Design revealed that the qualification model of the demonstrator’s fairing was in the middle of a test campaign. The update added that it had just completed “shaker tests” at the DLR Institute of Space Systems’ facilities in Bremen.

The demonstrator’s fairing will reduce aerodynamic drag during ascent and house the GNSS antenna. In addition to the fairing, DLR is also responsible for the control surfaces, liquid hydrogen tank, flight software, approach and landing system, and navigation system.

According to a CNES timeline, the project’s detailed design phase is expected to be completed before the end of 2024. Vehicle integration will then be completed in Japan in 2025, clearing the way for an inaugural flight.

Emphasis mine.

Note: that's about 3 years later than originally planned. For a tech demonstrator...

[TheKutKu]

Emphasis mine.

Note: that's about 3 years later than originally planned. For a tech demonstrator...

More like 7 years...
From Cnesmag May 2016.

[Runerdieker]

I know that this article was attached because of the mentioned year 2019, but this text of this article also has a kind of obsolescence to it: dreaming of reusability, while the Grasshopper F9 protoype was already three years retired!

Simple translation:

Japan
CALLISTO, REUSABLE SPACE VEHICLE
At a time when our society is questioning disposables, engineers are dreaming of reusable space vehicles.
JAXA and CNES are working together to examine this possibility through the Callisto program.
This concept vehicle is only a demonstrator, but its mission is to prefigure the launchers of tomorrow.
The task is arduous, the technologies and the design innovative.
In November 2015, the teams tackled the first phase of the work: cross-analyses of concepts and reuse scenarios.
From October, CNES will discuss the possibility of a three-way cooperation with the DLR, a JAXA partner.
For the moment, the test date for this demonstrator is set for 2019.

[Asteroza]

I wonder how much of the delay is linked to the JAXA data package, which is dependent on RVT work?

[Mamut]

Im wondering if other reusable rockets projects depend on Callisto? What about RFA, PLD, Isarspace, Maiaspace, resusable Vega, Themis, and other stuff. Are all of them independent projects designing landing procedures from scratch, or is it Callisto that suppose to lead the way?

[TrevorMonty]

Im wondering if other reusable rockets projects depend on Callisto? What about RFA, PLD, Isarspace, Maiaspace, resusable Vega, Themis, and other stuff. Are all of them independent projects designing landing procedures from scratch, or is it Callisto that suppose to lead the way?

If these LV startups have hitched their wagon to Callistro, they've pick one of slowest nags in RLV race.

[TheKutKu]

Im wondering if other reusable rockets projects depend on Callisto? What about RFA, PLD, Isarspace, Maiaspace, resusable Vega, Themis, and other stuff. Are all of them independent projects designing landing procedures from scratch, or is it Callisto that suppose to lead the way?

>RFA, PLD, Isarspace
They don't plan retropropulsive recovery (for now), PLD has it own parachute recovery program.
>reusable Vega
They have their own program funded by the Italian government through ESA involving the IFD demonstrator planned for next year
>Themis, Maiaspace
Different organizations (ESA-EUSPA-Arianegroup), with different size, different engines, and the currently funded SALTO hops in Kiruna (which are still planned to happen concurrently or before Callisto's flight) are much smaller than Callisto's and involve different ground infrastructures.  The Themis 3 flights in Kourou will use a closer flight profile and the same launch pad, so maybe Callisto will inform more of it, but there's serious doubt if it'll get funded.

Maia is kind of an unknown, they seem to want to follow a SpaceX style iterative development through operational flights, while also being informed from the Themis 1 SALTO Kiruna flights, but concurently to the Themis 3 flights.

[woods170]

Emphasis mine.

Note: that's about 3 years later than originally planned. For a tech demonstrator...

More like 7 years...
From Cnesmag May 2016.

Three years... seven years...

Let's just say it's late. Big Time Late.