Author Topic: Soyuz 5/6/7 Rocket Family - Updates and Discussions (Read 264218 times)

baldusi · « **Reply #40 on:** 08/21/2015 11:23 pm »

BTW, according to the latest KBKhA annual report, the RD-0164 will have a sea level thrust of 340tnf (3.33MN) and the RD-0169 of 74tnf (737kN) in vacuum. And these pictures were poster in novosti kosmonautika thread on the Soyuz-5.
It shows common bulkhead, and the core stage appears to have (roughly) 3.5 the propellant load of the upper stage.
And look at those RD-0164 numbers!

Oli · « **Reply #41 on:** 08/22/2015 12:12 am »

That's a nice rocket.

baldusi · « **Reply #42 on:** 08/23/2015 03:55 pm »

Plus two additional pictures from novosti kosmonautika. Apparently these were taken of a presentation to RSA by Progress CEO Kirilin in April 2015.

Prober · « **Reply #43 on:** 08/23/2015 05:54 pm »

any talk of redoing the R7 based Soyuz boosters to run on methane?

Seems like Russia would upgrade the current system before developing another new model to replace, and compete for Proton type launches.

Kryten · « **Reply #44 on:** 08/23/2015 06:02 pm »

Only the single-stick version is currently funded for development AFAICT, that covers the existing Soyuz range with some extra capability.

TrevorMonty · « **Reply #45 on:** 08/23/2015 06:58 pm »

Here is Parabolic arc article on it.

http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150818/1025862519.html

"The engines will be developed from scratch, which would allow us to apply a variety of advanced technological and economic characteristics that would make Soyuz-5 competitive on global markets,” Kirilin said

I'm guessing this means additive manufacturing/3D printed parts.

Prober · « **Reply #46 on:** 08/23/2015 10:24 pm »

Quote from: TrevorMonty on 08/23/2015 06:58 pm

Here is Parabolic arc article on it.

http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150818/1025862519.html

"The engines will be developed from scratch, which would allow us to apply a variety of advanced technological and economic characteristics that would make Soyuz-5 competitive on global markets,” Kirilin said

I'm guessing this means additive manufacturing/3D printed parts.

Angara has some 3D printed engine parts some linkage in the Advanced section.
Starting to think this might be another paper project?

Ronsmytheiii · « **Reply #47 on:** 08/23/2015 10:44 pm »

Quote from: Prober on 08/23/2015 10:24 pm

Quote from: TrevorMonty on 08/23/2015 06:58 pm
Here is Parabolic arc article on it.

http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150818/1025862519.html

"The engines will be developed from scratch, which would allow us to apply a variety of advanced technological and economic characteristics that would make Soyuz-5 competitive on global markets,” Kirilin said

I'm guessing this means additive manufacturing/3D printed parts.

Anagara has some 3D printed engine parts some linkage in the Advanced section.
Starting to think this might be another paper project?

And speaking of which, why not go with Angara A3 instead of a new LV? I can only guess if would be to keep Progress in the LV building business, but isnt the point of the consolidated Roscosmos to reduce redundancy and inefficiencies?

TrevorMonty · « **Reply #48 on:** 08/23/2015 11:42 pm »

Quote from: Ronsmytheiii on 08/23/2015 10:44 pm

Quote from: Prober on 08/23/2015 10:24 pm
Quote from: TrevorMonty on 08/23/2015 06:58 pm
Here is Parabolic arc article on it.

http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150818/1025862519.html

"The engines will be developed from scratch, which would allow us to apply a variety of advanced technological and economic characteristics that would make Soyuz-5 competitive on global markets,” Kirilin said

I'm guessing this means additive manufacturing/3D printed parts.

Anagara has some 3D printed engine parts some linkage in the Advanced section.
Starting to think this might be another paper project?

And speaking of which, why not go with Angara A3 instead of a new LV? I can only guess if would be to keep Progress in the LV building business, but isnt the point of the consolidated Roscosmos to reduce redundancy and inefficiencies?

For high flight rates a dedicated single core LV should be cheaper to build and operate. At 20 flights a year it should be viable. Not so sure about triple core Soyuz, this would be competing with Angara 5.

baldusi · « **Reply #49 on:** 08/24/2015 01:16 am »

The Whole Soyuz-5 in Novosti Kosmonautika is devoted to the overlap with Angara-3. This is SRC Progress project. If you ask me, I would trust Progress a lot more than Khrunichev.

Kryten · « **Reply #50 on:** 08/24/2015 01:26 am »

What kind of launch rate are the current and planned Angara facilities intended to be able to handle? Is it enough to allow Angara to fill the Soyuz-class role in addition to it's currently planned ones?

savuporo · « **Reply #51 on:** 08/24/2015 02:10 am »

I have read some back and forth about LNG/methane in Russian. Proponents are saying that due to extensive existing LNG infrastructure and really good availability LNG is the future for the industry. And that alone is reason enough to build this to complement Angara.
Would be really surprising if hydrocarbon fuel choice actually makes a dent in operations and infrastructure costs, but we are talking Russian winters here, so maybe.

baldusi · « **Reply #52 on:** 08/24/2015 11:49 am »

Well, for a start, Angara is a very poor Soyuz replacement. Angara-1 is too weak, and Angara-3 too much. So Soyuz-5 is actually about replacing the Soyuz-2 family while remaining price and technology competitive.
The methane is actually strategic because, from what I've read, the RG-1 can be only distilled from a single oil field in Russia, and the field is in the process of being depleted. So in the far future, RG-1 launchers might mean actually importing a specific kind of oil. Not that it should be the only reason to do it. But for example it is the first common bulkhead that I've seen for land based launch vehicles. That's another reason. And then you have to consider that it has 70% pressure losses in the regeneration circuit. And after hydrogen is the best expander fuel. And there's a huge industrial base for LNG transport and handling. And it was the fuel of choice for the reusable engine development. So it might be a lot of small reasons rather than a single one.

Dmitry_V_home · « **Reply #53 on:** 08/24/2015 03:32 pm »

Small portion of information on the RD0162 engine. Thanks to Salo

Dmitry_V_home · « **Reply #54 on:** 08/24/2015 03:33 pm »

Dmitry_V_home · « **Reply #55 on:** 08/24/2015 03:34 pm »

savuporo · « **Reply #56 on:** 08/24/2015 04:54 pm »

Quote from: Dmitry_V_home on 08/24/2015 03:34 pm

Quick rough translation of lines : земная - ground level
пустотная - vacuum
диапазон работы - operating ( throttling ) range
бысота - height
диаметр среза сопла - nozzle diameter
масса сухого двигателя - dry mass of the engine

Oli · « **Reply #57 on:** 08/24/2015 05:03 pm »

Prop. mass fraction of 93% for the first and 92% for the second stage.

What's the RD-180 MC?

Edit: Nonsense removed.

baldusi · « **Reply #58 on:** 08/24/2015 07:40 pm »

ДОГГ = Дожиганием Окислительного Генераторного Газа. Literally "postcombustion of oxidizing generator gas", what we know as Oxidizer Rich Staged Combustion.

ДВГГ = Дожиганием Восстановительного Газогенераторного Газа. Literally "postcombustion of reducting generator gas", what we know as Fuel Rich Staged Combustion.

The expander Cycle is called безгазогенераторной.

Примечание: максимальный габаритный размер в плоскости среза сопел = Note: Maximum dimensions in the plane of the cut nozzles (exit plane of nozzles?)

The methane is метан, so the RD-180 is a Methane version.

russianhalo117 · « **Reply #59 on:** 08/24/2015 08:01 pm »

Quote from: Oli on 08/24/2015 05:03 pm

Prop. mass fraction of 93% for the first and 92% for the second stage.

What's the RD-180 MC?

Edit: Nonsense removed.

RD-180 MC = Methane Cryo = RD-180 (CH4 LO2 or METHALOX)