Seems a bit strong to descope just because ULA have increased costs. Maybe alternative launchers should be considered.
Quote from: Star One on 08/16/2016 06:49 pmSeems a bit strong to descope just because ULA have increased costs. Maybe alternative launchers should be considered.It's not only that, there are also other reasons for the increased cost estimate.
Quote from: as58 on 08/16/2016 07:14 pmQuote from: Star One on 08/16/2016 06:49 pmSeems a bit strong to descope just because ULA have increased costs. Maybe alternative launchers should be considered.It's not only that, there are also other reasons for the increased cost estimate.But from going on that article it sounded like the launcher costs was the biggest factor?
However, changes to the mission design between the 2015 DRM and the version of WFIRST presented at the Mission Concept Review and approved at KDP-A led to an increase of the estimated cost by approximately 25 percent ($550 million). An unknown portion of this change is associated with the change from geosynchronous orbit to L2, and another portion is associated with an increased estimate for the cost of the Delta IV Heavy launch vehicle (the choice of launch vehicle did not change, just its estimated cost). Some of it may simply reflect more accurate assessment as the mission design matures. NASA’s current cost projection for WFIRST is $2.6 billion to $2.8 billion in FY2015 dollars for a 2025 launch. A key uncertainty is the launch vehicle cost, which is difficult to project 8-10 years into the future at this time. It is projected that an accelerated funding profile leading to a 2024 launch would save approximately $0.3 billion relative to the “in-guide” profile that leads to a 2025 launch.
Quote from: Sam Ho on 08/16/2016 03:43 pmThe National Academies published a midterm assessment of the New Worlds, New Horizons program.http://www.nap.edu/23560On the WFIRST front (Chapter 4), it remains a top priority, but there was about a 25% increase in the estimated cost, caused by a significant, but unspecified, increase in the cost of the Delta IV Heavy, among other things, and they are concerned that WFIRST could eat up the budget.A large part was due to WFIRST being switched from geostationary orbit to L2. The coronagraph was also mentioned, since it wasn't initially part of the recommendation for the mission. I hope they can keep the mission on better track than the Webb 'scope. I can understand their concern given the track record of big missions overrunning budgets a lot.
The National Academies published a midterm assessment of the New Worlds, New Horizons program.http://www.nap.edu/23560On the WFIRST front (Chapter 4), it remains a top priority, but there was about a 25% increase in the estimated cost, caused by a significant, but unspecified, increase in the cost of the Delta IV Heavy, among other things, and they are concerned that WFIRST could eat up the budget.
Quote from: redliox on 08/16/2016 06:10 pmQuote from: Sam Ho on 08/16/2016 03:43 pmThe National Academies published a midterm assessment of the New Worlds, New Horizons program.http://www.nap.edu/23560On the WFIRST front (Chapter 4), it remains a top priority, but there was about a 25% increase in the estimated cost, caused by a significant, but unspecified, increase in the cost of the Delta IV Heavy, among other things, and they are concerned that WFIRST could eat up the budget.A large part was due to WFIRST being switched from geostationary orbit to L2. The coronagraph was also mentioned, since it wasn't initially part of the recommendation for the mission. I hope they can keep the mission on better track than the Webb 'scope. I can understand their concern given the track record of big missions overrunning budgets a lot.There's a big issue hidden in all of this--WFIRST was conceived as a different mirror. Then they were gifted the NRO mirror. Even though that mirror was "free," it turns out that using it may cost a lot more than what they originally planned for. It's a complex and rather weird situation.
Quote from: Blackstar on 08/17/2016 12:41 pmQuote from: redliox on 08/16/2016 06:10 pmQuote from: Sam Ho on 08/16/2016 03:43 pmThe National Academies published a midterm assessment of the New Worlds, New Horizons program.http://www.nap.edu/23560On the WFIRST front (Chapter 4), it remains a top priority, but there was about a 25% increase in the estimated cost, caused by a significant, but unspecified, increase in the cost of the Delta IV Heavy, among other things, and they are concerned that WFIRST could eat up the budget.A large part was due to WFIRST being switched from geostationary orbit to L2. The coronagraph was also mentioned, since it wasn't initially part of the recommendation for the mission. I hope they can keep the mission on better track than the Webb 'scope. I can understand their concern given the track record of big missions overrunning budgets a lot.There's a big issue hidden in all of this--WFIRST was conceived as a different mirror. Then they were gifted the NRO mirror. Even though that mirror was "free," it turns out that using it may cost a lot more than what they originally planned for. It's a complex and rather weird situation. Unfortunately, it's a very normal situation. These repurposing schemes always sound great when you start and always wind up costing more time, money and trouble than building from scratch.
Quote from: Nomadd on 08/17/2016 04:28 pmQuote from: Blackstar on 08/17/2016 12:41 pmQuote from: redliox on 08/16/2016 06:10 pmQuote from: Sam Ho on 08/16/2016 03:43 pmThe National Academies published a midterm assessment of the New Worlds, New Horizons program.http://www.nap.edu/23560On the WFIRST front (Chapter 4), it remains a top priority, but there was about a 25% increase in the estimated cost, caused by a significant, but unspecified, increase in the cost of the Delta IV Heavy, among other things, and they are concerned that WFIRST could eat up the budget.A large part was due to WFIRST being switched from geostationary orbit to L2. The coronagraph was also mentioned, since it wasn't initially part of the recommendation for the mission. I hope they can keep the mission on better track than the Webb 'scope. I can understand their concern given the track record of big missions overrunning budgets a lot.There's a big issue hidden in all of this--WFIRST was conceived as a different mirror. Then they were gifted the NRO mirror. Even though that mirror was "free," it turns out that using it may cost a lot more than what they originally planned for. It's a complex and rather weird situation. Unfortunately, it's a very normal situation. These repurposing schemes always sound great when you start and always wind up costing more time, money and trouble than building from scratch.All this negativity and no mention of the positive side that in the end this will mean more science.
Finding 3-2: The opportunity to increase the telescope aperture and resolution by employing the 2.4-meter AFTA mirror will significantly enhance the scientific power of the mission, primarily for cosmology and general survey science, and will also positively impact the exoplanet microlensing survey. WFIRST/AFTA’s planned observing program is responsive to all the scientific goals described in NWNH. (p. 37)Finding 2-4: The risk of cost growth is significantly higher for WFIRST/AFTA without the coronagraph than for WFIRST/IDRM. (p. 39)
Thanks to (1) JWST remaining on schedule and budget since its 2011 reprogram, (2) the adoption of the 2.4-m National Reconnaissance Office (NRO) telescope, and (3) the addition of the coronagraph, WFIRST-AFTA has enjoyed stronger support in Congress, within NASA, and in the astronomical community, compared to the previous implementations of WFIRST. All three of these developments have played a role in garnering this stronger support, and it is hard to disentangle their individual contributions. In FY2014, FY2015, and FY2016, Congress allocated more funds to WFIRST than requested by the administration.
FINDING 4-3: The WFIRST coronagraph responds to an opportunity that arose after NWNH, the availability of the 2.4-m AFTA telescope.
Jeff Foust – @jeff_foustStill: WFIRST scheduled to go into Phase B in Oct.; decision around that time whether to maintain compatibility with a starshade. #ExoPAG
Quote from: Nomadd on 08/17/2016 04:28 pmQuote from: Blackstar on 08/17/2016 12:41 pmQuote from: redliox on 08/16/2016 06:10 pmQuote from: Sam Ho on 08/16/2016 03:43 pmThe National Academies published a midterm assessment of the New Worlds, New Horizons program.http://www.nap.edu/23560On the WFIRST front (Chapter 4), it remains a top priority, but there was about a 25% increase in the estimated cost, caused by a significant, but unspecified, increase in the cost of the Delta IV Heavy, among other things, and they are concerned that WFIRST could eat up the budget.A large part was due to WFIRST being switched from geostationary orbit to L2. The coronagraph was also mentioned, since it wasn't initially part of the recommendation for the mission. I hope they can keep the mission on better track than the Webb 'scope. I can understand their concern given the track record of big missions overrunning budgets a lot.There's a big issue hidden in all of this--WFIRST was conceived as a different mirror. Then they were gifted the NRO mirror. Even though that mirror was "free," it turns out that using it may cost a lot more than what they originally planned for. It's a complex and rather weird situation. Unfortunately, it's a very normal situation. These repurposing schemes always sound great when you start and always wind up costing more time, money and trouble than building from scratch.Maybe, but from Congress's point of view writing the checks, that NRO telescope was a complete write off worth several billion dollars of taxpayer money. By finally using the NRO telescope, they get some of that invested money back as long as the cost of "new" WFIRST doesn't exceed the projected cost of "old" WFIRST plus the original cost of the NRO telescope.
Quote from: sghill on 01/09/2017 12:55 pmMaybe, but from Congress's point of view writing the checks, that NRO telescope was a complete write off worth several billion dollars of taxpayer money. By finally using the NRO telescope, they get some of that invested money back as long as the cost of "new" WFIRST doesn't exceed the projected cost of "old" WFIRST plus the original cost of the NRO telescope.Sounds a lot like the sunk cost fallacy.
Maybe, but from Congress's point of view writing the checks, that NRO telescope was a complete write off worth several billion dollars of taxpayer money. By finally using the NRO telescope, they get some of that invested money back as long as the cost of "new" WFIRST doesn't exceed the projected cost of "old" WFIRST plus the original cost of the NRO telescope.
Quote from: Lee Jay on 01/09/2017 01:05 pmQuote from: sghill on 01/09/2017 12:55 pmMaybe, but from Congress's point of view writing the checks, that NRO telescope was a complete write off worth several billion dollars of taxpayer money. By finally using the NRO telescope, they get some of that invested money back as long as the cost of "new" WFIRST doesn't exceed the projected cost of "old" WFIRST plus the original cost of the NRO telescope.Sounds a lot like the sunk cost fallacy.I don't think that the sunk cost fallacy is really a fallacy--looking at these things that way overly simplifies the situation. It's a lot more complex and subtle than that. One possible reality is that WFIRST may never have found political support at all if it had not been for the NRO optics. So calling it a "fallacy" misses the issue that these kinds of decisions are made on the basis of a whole bunch of considerations and priorities that differ from person to person.
Put it this way. If it gets the thing built, it was a good path. Just like building the ISS, servicing Hubble or any of the things that people claim could have been done cheaper and more efficiently, doing them the way they were done might have been the only way they'd ever get done, considering the public and congressional relations factor.
Right...in other words, Congress routinely falls for the sunk cost fallacy, and so you can use it to get what you want from them sometimes.
Quote from: Lee Jay on 01/09/2017 10:04 pmRight...in other words, Congress routinely falls for the sunk cost fallacy, and so you can use it to get what you want from them sometimes."Falls for" implies that they are dumb and the person talking about "the sunk cost fallacy" is not dumb.I would instead counter-propose that focusing on "the sunk cost fallacy" ignores the complexity of how politics works. It is not all about money, it is often about perception and interest and support. If everybody in Congress took into account "the sunk cost fallacy" and simply canceled stuff when it got expensive, then nothing would ever get built. You'd save lots of money that way, right? Well, after you spent the money and then stopped building something--at that point you'd save the money. Doesn't sound all that efficient.