1. That is where the Bloom Box fuel cell comes in, at $700,000 USD it is a steal for the space industry. At this price point this device can generate the 200kw required by a single vasimr engine, if you have more engines buy more Bloom Boxes. When mated with the vasimr you would then have an economical and nearly immediately available means of opening up deep space travel today. The big savings of course the this would obviate the need to launch huge quantities of propellants into space from the earths surface. 2. One other thought on the acquisition of Oxygen, many have suggested that we build a space elevator using carbon nanotubes or other superstrong materials. But, it seems to me that we already have in our possession materials that are strong enough to be lowered and retracted 300 to 400 miles into the upper earth atmosphere to mine gases including hydrogen and oxygen. This does not get men and equipment into space but it does get critical propellant and oxygen where it is needed. As a supplemental thought what do you think?
Thanks for the comment, but the bloom box requires oxygen like all fuel cells and I am proposing that both hydrogen and oxygen can be harvested from the solar wind.
I am also proposing that potentially it can be harvested by pumping it from the lower atmosphere, which by the way solves the fuel problem you mention since the very act of gathering hydrogen and oxygen from the upper atmosphere would provide any extra fuel that would be required to maintain a low earth orbit, I presume that upon capturing these gases that the siphon and storage tanks would move into a higher more stable orbit, as some satellites do all the time particularly surveillance satellites.
Also, I should add that, I do not assume that the bloom box long term solution for deep space travel they might be used for decades and on many missions this is where the cost savings of this solution come in. I believe that this proposal addresses the three major components of this design requirement, the rocket engine, its power source, and the fuel for the power source.
I am suggesting that in spite of previous views of the topic of mining gases from the upper atmosphere that we might re-investigate the feasibility in the light of new materials, and that hydrogen and oxygen could potentially be mined from the mesosphere from a very low earth orbiting satellite, one that might even dip into the exosphere or even the thermosphere to facilitate gathering the gases.
I am new to this forum, I had an idea that I would like to share regarding the use of the vasimr in deep space exploration. It is clear that the hold up in its use will be providing a sufficiently large power source for this device. I was thinking about the convergence of several technologies which might address the problem. 1) the bloom box, or fuel cell. 2) bussard ramscoop 3) inflatable storage mediums 4) chemistry. The problem with deep space travel is the need to go fast and far this requires a lot of fuel or a high density energy source. Nuclear has often been kicked around as the possible solution to energy density problem, but until the LFTR thorium reactor is perfected or the fusion technologies of focus fusion or EMC2 polywell fusion is perfected in the next 10~30 years we don't have a solution. I propose that current technologies can be cheap enough and effective at providing the energy required, with one caveat the need to develop and deploy a method to capture solar flux, hydrogen and other gases and store them for use. If we were to develop and use a bussard ramscoop which I believe is technically possible and feasible we could use inflatable storage spheres to store large quantities of gases expelled from the surface of the sun. These gases could then be electrostatically separated and stored in their own inflatable storage sphere. These spheres would be dock-able modules which could be connected in long chains and would carry there own built-in plumbing, electronics, docking, and control mechanisms. A hydrogen/oxygen/xenon gas acquisition plant could essentially be built either inside the Venus - Earth orbit or the Venus - Mercury orbit to take advantage of the higher solar flux. Chemical rocket tugs to ferry the resultant gases back into Earth orbit siphoning off some of the stored propellant for its own use, orbiting at L5 or the moon.That is where the Bloom Box fuel cell comes in, at $700,000 USD it is a steal for the space industry. At this price point this device can generate the 200kw required by a single vasimr engine, if you have more engines buy more Bloom Boxes. When mated with the vasimr you would then have an economical and nearly immediately available means of opening up deep space travel today. The big savings of course the this would obviate the need to launch huge quantities of propellants into space from the earths surface. One other thought on the acquisition of Oxygen, many have suggested that we build a space elevator using carbon nanotubes or other superstrong materials. But, it seems to me that we already have in our possession materials that are strong enough to be lowered and retracted 300 to 400 miles into the upper earth atmosphere to mine gases including hydrogen and oxygen. This does not get men and equipment into space but it does get critical propellant and oxygen where it is needed. As a supplemental thought what do you think?Comments anyone, does anyone share my belief that is a good idea as a solution to providing the power required by the VASIMR?http://blog.sfgate.com/green/2010/02/24/is-the-bloom-box-the-ipod-of-clean-energy/ptolemy1977
Quote from: ptolemy1977 on 04/13/2012 02:21 amThanks for the comment, but the bloom box requires oxygen like all fuel cells and I am proposing that both hydrogen and oxygen can be harvested from the solar wind. not feasibleSolar wind is just charge particles, mostly electrons and protons. No oxygen and its density is 3-6 atoms per cubic centimeter. That is too low of density to collect. That is why every depot scheme use hydrogen and/or water brought up from earth or the moon.
Jim, I am starting to believe that you don't like my idea. Huge loses would be a bad thing if chemical generation of electricity cannot provide the electricity required to power the VASIMR over time then it is in fact not feasible. I guess my issue was that if we had a readily available source of chemical fuel would it be practical to use a fuel cell to generate enough electricity to power the VASIMR for the 1~2 months required for a round trip to Mars or for some other deep space scenario? your answer appears to be no that the fuel cell would be too inefficient thus requiring too much hydrogen to be feasibly stored and transported. If all of these ideas hold true then I am forced to agree that this idea would not work. Its been fun!Darkendone, I agree that the most feasible answer is some type of nuclear. But, I did not know that the government would allow the use of a submarine nuclear generator for space flight purposes? I have seen on many boards that there isn't a nuclear reactor available to NASA which is large enough to power the VASIMR. Night folks, maybe I'll post again someday.