Author Topic: How the James Webb Space Telescope got its name  (Read 10046 times)

Offline ulm_atms

  • Rocket Junky
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 962
  • To boldly go where no government has gone before.
  • Liked: 1625
  • Likes Given: 968
How the James Webb Space Telescope got its name
« on: 04/08/2022 09:02 pm »
Just creating this thread to pull some of the naming discussions away from the more technical/operational discussions.

So everyone...how did the JWST name really come to be and why?
« Last Edit: 04/12/2022 07:04 pm by zubenelgenubi »

Offline Perchlorate

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 515
  • 2 miles from the site of the first successful powered flight.
  • Liked: 1157
  • Likes Given: 1659
Re: How the JWST got its name.
« Reply #1 on: 04/08/2022 09:20 pm »
Just creating this thread to pull some of the naming discussions away from the more technical/operational discussions.

So everyone...how did the JWST name really come to be and why?

Thank you very much for this.  If we insist on pressing the matter, let this separate forum be the place to discuss how the name arose, whether the 'scope should have been named for an astronomer, whether Webb was a great guy, a homophobic jerk, or some complicated blend, based on the mores and beliefs of his day.  Mercifully, perhaps we will let this thread be THE place for all of these sorts of discussions.

And, unable to repress my inner grammar Nazi, let's lose the incorrect apostrophe:  "its," not "it's."
Pete B, a Civil Engineer, in an age of incivility.

Offline Star One

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14360
  • UK
  • Liked: 4130
  • Likes Given: 220
Re: How the JWST got it's name.
« Reply #2 on: 04/12/2022 10:30 am »
My personal take on the naming is rather than single out one person and wag your finger at them blame the system that was in place then. And you can only understand the system by putting it in its historical context, that’s not to say the system was right as from this prospective it wasn’t.

Online edzieba

  • Virtual Realist
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6829
  • United Kingdom
  • Liked: 10443
  • Likes Given: 48
Re: How the JWST got it's name.
« Reply #3 on: 04/12/2022 03:10 pm »
The pushback just seems rather arbitrary. Renaming missions is hardly rare, and the name was assigned unilaterally by Sean O'Keefe in the first place (bucking the normal trend of naming astronomy missions after astronomers). But renaming it has been given an exceptionally high bar given the evidence uncovered so far (on the State Department side and external records referring to NASA policy), and the decision to not even consider renaming was taken before the investigation has even completed, with access to the NASA archives delayed by the pandemic. "We found no evidence" doesn't hold much water when they hadn't actually looked yet, and with it later transpiring they did have some evidence provided to them from outside the NASA archives too it hold up even more poorly.
Original Nature article.
Quote
[Brian Odom] and a contract historian, whose identity has not been disclosed, will soon visit other historical archives to continue to look into Webb’s history. These archives have been closed owing to the COVID-19 pandemic but will open again in the next few weeks. Odom says he will share information about what the historians find with the astronomy community.
Quote
As early as April 2021, an external researcher flagged wording from the 1969 court ruling to NASA officials. It came in the case of Clifford Norton, who had appealed against being fired from NASA for “immoral, indecent, and disgraceful conduct”. In the decision, the chief judge wrote that the person who had fired Norton had said that he was a good employee and asked whether there was a way to keep him on. Whomever he consulted in the personnel office told him that it was a “custom within the agency” to fire people for “homosexual conduct”.

“I think you will find this paragraph to be troubling,” wrote the external researcher to Eric Smith, the JWST’s programme scientist at NASA in Washington DC. “‘A custom within the agency’ sounds pretty bad.”

A white paper drawn up within NASA, and described as not meant for public release, says: “This shows that NASA had decided that removal of homosexual employees would be its policy. They had a choice during Webb’s tenure as administrator to set or change that policy.”
Seems pretty clear-cut so far: non-NASA archives record that decisions on firing were made based on sexual orientation by policy, and NASA archives (where any policies would presumably be recorded) have not yet been consulted due to lack of access.
That certainly sounds like any decision-making on naming was at the very least premature.

Or to put it shortly: that which was renamed without much consideration (NGST to JWST) can be renamed without much consideration (JWST to xxST).
« Last Edit: 04/12/2022 04:26 pm by edzieba »

Offline su27k

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6414
  • Liked: 9107
  • Likes Given: 885
Re: How the James Webb Space Telescope got its name
« Reply #4 on: 10/25/2022 02:06 am »
https://twitter.com/RoyalAstroSoc/status/1584526479630643200

Quote
At its meeting in July, the governing council of the RAS made a decision to write to the UK Space Agency, the European Space Agency (ESA) and NASA to express its concerns about the original JWST naming process and the apparent failure to investigate James Webb’s background.



Read our full statement: https://ras.ac.uk/news-and-press/news/ras-and-jwst
« Last Edit: 10/25/2022 02:07 am by su27k »

Offline Oersted

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3100
  • Liked: 4479
  • Likes Given: 3011
Re: How the James Webb Space Telescope got its name
« Reply #5 on: 11/04/2022 07:28 pm »
When an Astronomical Society carries the "Royal" epithet does that not imply an acceptance of the centuries of imperialism and atrocities committed in the name of the British crown? - Just asking for a friend.... 

Offline whitelancer64

Re: How the James Webb Space Telescope got its name
« Reply #6 on: 11/04/2022 07:55 pm »
When an Astronomical Society carries the "Royal" epithet does that not imply an acceptance of the centuries of imperialism and atrocities committed in the name of the British crown? - Just asking for a friend....

The Royal Astronomical Society was founded in 1820 as the Astronomical Society of London to support astronomical research. Among the 14 founding members were Charles Babbage and John Herschel. At that time, most members were 'gentleman astronomers' rather than professionals. It became the Royal Astronomical Society in 1831 on receiving a Royal Charter from King William IV.

Text of Charter here:
https://ras.ac.uk/about-the-ras/198/238-the-charter-of-the-royal-astronomical-society

The Charter essentially establishes the Monarch of England as the Patron of the Society, and allows the Society to be self-governing within the legal boundaries established by the Charter.
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
"There are lies, damned lies, and launch schedules." - Larry J

Offline Oersted

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3100
  • Liked: 4479
  • Likes Given: 3011
Re: How the James Webb Space Telescope got its name
« Reply #7 on: 11/05/2022 08:48 pm »
Just attempting an oblique comment on the slightly ridiculous "expression of concern" by the Royal Society regarding Webb.

- Should people start investigating all the Society´s esteemed members since 1831 who probably said or did things that do not conform to modern-day standards...?

Thank God for James Webb who did so much for the success of Apollo. Apollo was a major victory for the free world against communist tyranny, happening at a time when that tyranny had a lot of winds in it´s sails.   

Offline Oersted

  • Member
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3100
  • Liked: 4479
  • Likes Given: 3011
Re: How the James Webb Space Telescope got its name
« Reply #8 on: 11/18/2022 09:05 pm »
Regarding the "the apparent failure to investigate James Webb’s background", here's NASA's conclusions from their in-depth investigation of James Webb.

"The report found no evidence that Webb was either a leader or proponent of firing government employees for their sexual orientation."

Full text of the conclusion:

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/nasa-shares-james-webb-history-report

----------

Nov 18, 2022

NASA Shares James Webb History Report

Advancing full equality for LGBTQI+ Americans is a core value and priority for NASA. Building a more inclusive future requires we honestly and openly confront our history, including the times when the federal government has fallen short of supporting LGBTQI+ communities. Today, NASA shared findings from an investigation into the historical role of former NASA Administrator James Webb, after whom its flagship infrared observatory is named. The report found no evidence that Webb was either a leader or proponent of firing government employees for their sexual orientation.

In response to concerns about the name of the James Webb Space Telescope and whether James Webb had promoted anti-LGBTQI+ policies during his leadership, NASA launched an extensive investigation in 2021 into James Webb’s role during his time in leadership at the State Department from 1949 to 1952 and at NASA from 1961 to 1968. The agency’s investigation sought any available evidence placing James Webb within the context of the “Lavender Scare,” a time when the outing and firing of LGBTQI+ individuals in the executive branch was a harmful and discriminatory federal policy.

“For decades, discrimination against LGBTQI+ federal employees was not merely tolerated, it was shamefully promoted by federal policies. The Lavender Scare that took place following World War II is a painful part of America’s story and the struggle for LGBTQI+ rights,” said NASA Administrator Bill Nelson. “After an exhaustive search of U.S. government and Truman library archives, NASA’s historical investigation found, ‘To date, no available evidence directly links Webb to any actions or follow-up related to the firing of individuals for their sexual orientation,’ as stated on page four of the report.”

NASA’s chief historian led a review of over 50,000 pages of documents from archival collections at NASA Headquarters; NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center; the National Archives and Records Administration; the National Archives at College Park, Maryland; and the Truman Presidential Library, in addition to secondary literature and other historians’ work on this time period. NASA has shared the full report on its findings related to Webb’s history. The report lists every document and collection the historians located and includes facsimiles of the most relevant.

The investigation closely examined two instances in which James Webb appears in the historical context around the Lavender Scare. The report found Webb’s primary involvement was to attempt to limit Congressional access to the personnel records of the Department of State. None of the evidence found links Webb to actions or follow-up in pursuit of firings after these discussions.

The investigation also sought to find out whether James Webb knew of the firing of Clifford J. Norton in 1963. Norton was a NASA GS-14 budget analyst, who was fired – based on civil service policy at the time – after being arrested by Washington, D.C., police on Oct. 22, 1963, for having made a "homosexual advance." Norton sued the Civil Service Commission, and ultimately the 1969 federal case Norton v. Macy found for the appellant – one of several cases that helped pave the way for the civil service policy to be overturned in 1975. There is no evidence Webb knew of the firing.

Based on the available evidence, the agency does not plan to change the name of the James Webb Space Telescope. However, the report illuminates that this period in federal policy – and in American history more broadly – was a dark chapter that does not reflect the agency’s values today. Understanding this history will help to guide NASA in its work to advance full equality for LGBTQI+ Americans, and equal opportunities for LGBTQI+ NASA employees. By sharing these findings, we also hope to promote public understanding of the history of discrimination against LGBTQI+ employees throughout the federal government and strengthen our efforts to confront the barriers that LGBTQI+ Americans continue to face.

“NASA’s core values of equality and inclusivity are in part what makes this agency so great, and we remain committed to ensuring those values are lived out throughout the workplace,” said Nelson.

----------

Offline Airlocks

  • Member
  • Posts: 56
  • Liked: 26
  • Likes Given: 87
Re: How the James Webb Space Telescope got its name
« Reply #9 on: 11/20/2022 08:25 am »
So - much ado about nothing, as would say Shakespeare. 

I can see the "why" the polemic started, the reasons. The "cause" is right (LGBQT rights are a noble fight) but in that case, the debate was excessive and not justified in the end. 
« Last Edit: 11/20/2022 08:29 am by Airlocks »

Offline Phil Stooke

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1408
  • Canada
  • Liked: 1479
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: How the James Webb Space Telescope got its name
« Reply #10 on: 11/21/2022 08:10 pm »
This analysis is worth reading:

https://hmoluseyi.medium.com/was-nasas-historic-leader-james-webb-a-bigot-131c821d5f12

It makes the point that the supposed quote made by Webb was in fact made by someone else:

"The “undersecretary of state” referred to in Toward Stonewall was in fact John Peurifoy, not Webb. Confusingly, both held jobs at the Department of State that included the phrase “Under Secretary,” though their job functions were entirely different."

And the source of this hassle was a Wikipedia page which was unclearly written and then misinterpreted.

I don't have time to read this new report to see if it says the same thing.  But basically I think Webb is in the clear, as much as anyone from the period can be.

Offline Vahe231991

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1687
  • 11 Canyon Terrace
  • Liked: 464
  • Likes Given: 199
Re: How the James Webb Space Telescope got its name
« Reply #11 on: 05/15/2023 03:11 am »
Just attempting an oblique comment on the slightly ridiculous "expression of concern" by the Royal Society regarding Webb.

- Should people start investigating all the Society´s esteemed members since 1831 who probably said or did things that do not conform to modern-day standards...?

Thank God for James Webb who did so much for the success of Apollo. Apollo was a major victory for the free world against communist tyranny, happening at a time when that tyranny had a lot of winds in it´s sails.   
NASA's promise to send astronauts to the moon by the end of the 1960s may have been a dream come true, but the death of Sergei Korolev in 1966 helped foreshadow the failure of the N1 moon rocket because Korolev's successor, Vasily Mishin, did not have the astuteness or management skills of Korolev.

The cancellation of the Apollo 18, 19, and 20 missions for budgetary reasons vindicated James Webb's belief that NASA needed to strike a balance between human spaceflight and science.

Tags: Apollo korolev 
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
0