Author Topic: Next round of U.S. optical spy satellites to start launching in 2018 (Read 15207 times)

Star One · « **on:** 05/02/2015 02:28 pm »

Now this is surprising as I thought FIA-O was meant to go smaller not larger or the same size as, yet here we have talk of payloads potentially even larger than the KH-11 & operating in new orbits.

http://spaceflightnow.com/2015/05/01/next-round-of-u-s-optical-spy-satellites-to-start-launching-in-2018/

Looks like these payloads will use up some of the last Delta IVH, probably a contributing factor as to why it's being kept in production longer.

Billium · « **Reply #1 on:** 05/02/2015 03:36 pm »

The Solar Probe mission is also supposed to launch on a Delta IV Heavy in 2018. 2 in 1 year for Delta IV Heavy, is that a record? Will the year Delta IV retires be the year the highest number of Delta IV cores are launched? It's a shame they won't keep the line active for another year or two.

baldusi · « **Reply #2 on:** 05/02/2015 05:25 pm »

I might do a different speculation. They they might use SEP to counteract atmospheric drag and fly lower orbits. The heavier and the more propellant parts are a SFN speculation and no hard data.

kevin-rf · « **Reply #3 on:** 05/02/2015 11:58 pm »

A wag, but SEP requires power, meaning larger panels that will result in higher drag.

I wonder at what altitude with SEP you reach a point of diminishing returns with the larger panels.

baldusi · « **Reply #4 on:** 05/03/2015 12:32 am »

Quote from: kevin-rf on 05/02/2015 11:58 pm

A wag, but SEP requires power, meaning larger panels that will result in higher drag.

I wonder at what altitude with SEP you reach a point of diminishing returns with the larger panels.

If they are sort of SSO the panels are always showing its thinner side. If somehow they keep using the elliptic orbits, the drag will be at perigee, which will first affect the apogee. Thus, they can thrust during transfer and put the panels on aerodynamic configuration (i.e. thinner side fore of the orbit) when going down.
But the GOCE demonstrated ridiculously low altitudes that can be held for a long time with SEP.

kevin-rf · « **Reply #5 on:** 05/03/2015 02:14 am »

Groce always displayed it's thinner side. That drag will not work if it is a stubby hubble pointing down. Also, you will want perigee to occur during the day lit side of the orbit. That means apogee will be on the dark side. Depending on the geometry and season, apogee may be in shadow.

gosnold · « **Reply #6 on:** 05/03/2015 09:03 am »

Quote from: kevin-rf on 05/03/2015 02:14 am

Groce always displayed it's thinner side. That drag will not work if it is a stubby hubble pointing down. Also, you will want perigee to occur during the day lit side of the orbit. That means apogee will be on the dark side. Depending on the geometry and season, apogee may be in shadow.

You can use a folding mirror and use a KH-9 configuration, and then you can point the telescope body forward and look down at the same time. Add some batteries to thrust at apogee and you are set.

Since it will launch on a Delta IV H, it could also be that it is a much lighter satellite on a much higher orbit. That would give a somewhat persistent capability.

kevin-rf · « **Reply #7 on:** 05/04/2015 01:37 pm »

Except everything revealed so far about the KH-11 does not indicate a folding mirror, more a stubby hubble configuration. Also, the donated optics from the failed FIA-I program did not include a folding mirror. FIA-I's optics where based on other evidence the same size (2.4m) as the KH-11.

Also, from an optics stand point, the fast f number of the FIA-I optics indicate a wide field of view, that does not play nice with folding mirrors. The folding mirror needs to be larger than the primary.

While this is a new program, it is being built by the people who built the KH-11. I would suspect it lacks a folding mirror. A more interesting question would be, will it be another 2.4m optic. They seem to really like the size.

gosnold · « **Reply #8 on:** 05/04/2015 06:40 pm »

Good points. Anyway, it does not make sense to launch a low-flying SEP sat with a delta IV Heavy. It would need to weigh twice as much as Hubble. That's why I think a move to higher orbits is more likely.
Another option is the NRO wants to be able to change plane from one orbit to the next to be able to overfly a target directly in a crisis situation. That means hydrazine, because SEP would be too low thrust.

Space Ghost 1962 · « **Reply #9 on:** 05/04/2015 07:13 pm »

You can also use off center optical systems.

kevin-rf · « **Reply #10 on:** 05/04/2015 08:04 pm »

$$$, oh wait, NRO... never mind

gosnold · « **Reply #11 on:** 05/07/2015 07:01 pm »

Spacenews article: Delays in U.S. Military Satellite Studies Could Be Limiting

http://spacenews.com/delays-in-u-s-military-satellite-studies-could-be-limiting/

Quote

But with what U.S. government officials say is the emergence of new threats to satellite systems from China and Russia, resiliency has become a top requirement for any new space architecture. The results of an exhaustive Defense Department examination of its space capabilities, known as the Space Portfolio Review, persuaded the Pentagon to insert resiliency as a primary consideration in the AOAs, which up to that time had been largely trading cost versus capability, Loverro said. - See more at: http://spacenews.com/delays-in-u-s-military-satellite-studies-could-be-limiting/#sthash.RDa9Aaqb.dpuf

That does not seem to push towards a few big satellites.

kevin-rf · « **Reply #12 on:** 05/11/2015 04:25 pm »

This older article was pointed out to me: http://spacenews.com/us-intelligence-official-drops-hint-about-next-gen-spy-sat-capability/

Basically 2.4m objective and an incremental evolution of the current system.

Quote

A new generation of electro-optical imaging satellites to be built by Lockheed Martin pending congressional approval will have an aperturesize of 2.4 meters, a senior U.S.intelligence official said.

James R. Clapper, undersecretary of defense for intelligence, disclosed the aperture size — or diameter of the satellite’s primary imaging mirror — of the Next-Generation Optical satellite system Oct.19 during a keynote address here at the Geoint 2009 Symposium.

Quote

Lockheed Martin Space Systems of Sunnyvale, Calif., is doing preacquisition work on the Next-Generation Optical System, and the National Reconnaissance Office (NRO), which buys and operates the nation’s spy satellites, expects to award the company the full-scale development contract in late 2011. The two-satellite system will be an evolutionary upgrade of the satellites Lockheed Martin has been building for decades.

Star One · « **Reply #13 on:** 05/11/2015 05:20 pm »

So upgraded variants of the KH-11 then.

kevin-rf · « **Reply #14 on:** 05/11/2015 11:46 pm »

The evidence does seem to be leaning in that direction.

Zed_Noir · « **Reply #15 on:** 05/12/2015 02:22 am »

Wonder why they limited the new contract to just 2 birds? Maybe an interim gap filler until they figure what future optical surveillance needs are?

Semmel · « **Reply #16 on:** 05/12/2015 08:34 am »

A monolithic mirror of 4m-class would fit inside the fairing. What makes you think NRO will settle for anything less than that?

Star One · « **Reply #17 on:** 05/12/2015 08:47 am »

Quote from: kevin-rf on 05/11/2015 11:46 pm

The evidence does seem to be leaning in that direction.

Why not I suppose, they seemingly do the job from what we can tell from the outside so this is probably the lowest risk solution & an appealing option after what happened with FIA-O.

kevin-rf · « **Reply #18 on:** 05/12/2015 09:43 am »

Quote from: Semmel on 05/12/2015 08:34 am

A monolithic mirror of 4m-class would fit inside the fairing. What makes you think NRO will settle for anything less than that?

History, The Undersectretary for defense saying the next gen. will be 2.4m, the donated mirrors from FIA-I being 2.4m, Hubble being 2.4m, the KH-11 being 2.4m, the 2.4m tooling exists. They really seem to like 2.4m. Based on what has been published they will be sticking with it for at least the next two satellites. Remember these satellites last about 15 years, they historically have kept 4 in orbit, two where built and launched after FIA-I was canceled, with the two new satellites on order this will be the system until the mid 2020's.

It would will be insteresting to see what they do after that.

baldusi · « **Reply #19 on:** 05/12/2015 05:31 pm »

Quote from: Semmel on 05/12/2015 08:34 am

A monolithic mirror of 4m-class would fit inside the fairing. What makes you think NRO will settle for anything less than that?

If you used a bared primary, like the one on the Herschel Space Observatory, you'd be able to squeeze the same 3.5m primary under a 5m fairing (4.6 effective dynamic diameter). Herschel was something like 4.5m total diameter. AIUI, if you go for something Hubble like, you are sort of restricted to 2.4m primary if you fit under a 5m fairing.
And if you decided to use something bigger, say a 6.5m fairing, which ULA has proposed for a DIVH, you wouldn't be able to transport it, unless you subcontracted an Airbus Beluga, which would be more than obvious if you were working for the DoD. So, unless NRO decides to pay for a lot of new infrastructure, I don't see anything bigger than 2.4m monolithic flying anytime soon.