Author Topic: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)  (Read 700177 times)

Offline MP99

Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #520 on: 11/16/2014 09:14 am »


Over a year ago I saw a booth set up by a Japanese rocket engine company and they were discussing the possible use of their engine as an upper stage for SLS.

More recently I was talking to a ULA person who indicated that they were currently evaluating a Japanese rocket engine for an SLS upper stage. And I've heard other inklings of this from another non-ULA/non-Japanese source as well.

Does anybody have more info? Can you point me to something with more details?
Perhaps the MB-60?

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32437.0

See also the Mitsubishi Aerojet Rocketdyne Collaboration for 60 klbf engine (MARC-60).

Google throws up a fee hits for that on NTRS and etc.

Cheers, Martin

Offline isogrid

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #521 on: 11/17/2014 05:46 pm »
Boeing produced video on SLS:

38 Stories of Power
http://www.buildsomethingbetter.com/#!/video/space/38-stories-of-power

Offline TomH

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #522 on: 11/17/2014 09:43 pm »
Boeing produced video on SLS:

38 Stories of Power
http://www.buildsomethingbetter.com/#!/video/space/38-stories-of-power

Why transposition and docking before EUS fires? This would be first time since Gemini-Agena that astros experience negative G's from significant thrust. What was Orion docking with at the top of EUS anyway?
« Last Edit: 11/17/2014 09:46 pm by TomH »

Offline Mark S

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #523 on: 11/18/2014 02:26 am »
Boeing produced video on SLS:

38 Stories of Power
http://www.buildsomethingbetter.com/#!/video/space/38-stories-of-power

Why transposition and docking before EUS fires? .... What was Orion docking with at the top of EUS anyway?

I'm just guessing, but that looks like it might be a 4m diameter habitation module to me. Which Orion will certainly need for any mission longer than 3 weeks.

As for the bass-ackwards boost mode, I agree that it seems ungainly. I was never a fan of that plan with CxP, and seeing it from Boeing for SLS is kind of a surprise. Maybe they're trying to eliminate the failure scenario where the docking mechanism fails after the boost phase, leaving the crew on a doomed flight with insufficient supplies and consumables.



Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #524 on: 11/18/2014 09:13 am »
The reason for performing transposition and docking in LEO is so that the Spacecraft Launch Adaptor can be jettisoned in LEO, allowing increased payload for TLI.

« Last Edit: 11/18/2014 09:19 am by Steven Pietrobon »
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline clongton

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #525 on: 11/19/2014 12:57 am »
Steve if you recall from the DIRECT proposal, Orion was supported not by the launch adapter panels, but by a lightweight structural frame that supported both the spacecraft and the adapter panels. In the DIRECT mission the panels were jettisoned exactly as shown above, to save mass during the burn, but Orion did not transition until after the TLI burn, which was accomplished by the EDS engine. In this manner the entire burn saw complete structural integrity without placing undue stress on the docking collar that could occur with the spacecraft transitioned prior to the burn.

With proper planning it is simply not necessary to do an eyeballs-out TLI burn, which structurally endangers the docking collar between the spacecraft and the lander, or in this case the hab, if even one of the engines experiences an off-nominal burn.
« Last Edit: 11/19/2014 10:22 am by clongton »
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Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #526 on: 11/19/2014 07:01 am »
That's not what the Direct renderings show. They show Orion only supported by the SLA and Orion performing a transposition and docking in LEO.
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline clongton

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #527 on: 11/19/2014 10:28 am »
Steve, you're showing the CxP mode of the DIRECT Lunar mission. The DIRECT preferred Options were as I described. There were 4 of them. Here is Option 2 (my preference). Options 1,3 & 4 all took the same track. Orion did not transition until after the TLI burn. This was a deliberate decision made by the team, specifically because of the stresses introduced into the Orion/LSAM Docking Collar by the CxP mode. Off nominal thrust at any point while docked under power could potentially lead to a LOM and possibly a LOC as well by compromising the docking collar. We REALLY didn't like that - at all.
http://www.directlauncher.org/Pics/DIRECT_Lunar_Mission_Model_2.jpg
« Last Edit: 11/19/2014 07:34 pm by clongton »
Chuck - DIRECT co-founder
I started my career on the Saturn-V F-1A engine

Offline newpylong

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #528 on: 11/19/2014 05:40 pm »
New artist concept of the SLS rolling out of the Vehicle Assembly Building at NASA's Kennedy Space Center.

Offline llanitedave

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #529 on: 11/19/2014 07:00 pm »
I still wonder about the insistence on painting the tank white in the artists concepts.  When is somebody going to admit that the orange tank insulation will be left as is?
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Offline rcoppola

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #530 on: 11/19/2014 08:07 pm »
I still wonder about the insistence on painting the tank white in the artists concepts.  When is somebody going to admit that the orange tank insulation will be left as is?
It's a creative protest. They'll render it orange when NASA gets around to giving it a proper name not just an acronym. (yes i know...update thread)
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Offline AnalogMan

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #531 on: 11/19/2014 09:30 pm »
Artists concept used in a NASA presentation in July 2014.

Offline DaveS

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #532 on: 11/19/2014 09:56 pm »

Artists concept used in a NASA presentation in July 2014.
I think that's supposed to be Ares V based on CxP logo on fairing. SLS from the very start has always featured the Saturn V paint scheme.
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Offline russianhalo117

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #533 on: 11/19/2014 10:51 pm »
I still wonder about the insistence on painting the tank white in the artists concepts.  When is somebody going to admit that the orange tank insulation will be left as is?
As with STS external tank the SLS core stage is only planned first couple of flights in Saturn white and black or until test regimen is concluded completely. although keeping it white would reduce cryo boil off a bit. This is why Centaur went back to white. I could only really see keeping the EPS white.

Offline TomH

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #534 on: 11/20/2014 01:23 am »
Artists concept used in a NASA presentation in July 2014.

That's not SLS; it's Ares V, 10 m core and cargo variant. SLS Block I has the little iCPS on top. Block IB has EUS that is 8.4 m dia.-same as the core. This has a small step down in dia. from core to LUS.
« Last Edit: 11/20/2014 01:26 am by TomH »

Offline TomH

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #535 on: 11/20/2014 01:29 am »
I still wonder about the insistence on painting the tank white in the artists concepts.  When is somebody going to admit that the orange tank insulation will be left as is?
As with STS external tank the SLS core stage is only planned first couple of flights in Saturn white and black or until test regimen is concluded completely. although keeping it white would reduce cryo boil off a bit. This is why Centaur went back to white. I could only really see keeping the EPS white.

STS-1 and 2 were white. It gives photo ops for a prettier bird, then many of those photos get used forever. Even in the 80s, eliminating the paint saved $2m/flight.

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #536 on: 11/20/2014 01:44 am »
I still wonder about the insistence on painting the tank white in the artists concepts.  When is somebody going to admit that the orange tank insulation will be left as is?
As with STS external tank the SLS core stage is only planned first couple of flights in Saturn white and black or until test regimen is concluded completely. although keeping it white would reduce cryo boil off a bit. This is why Centaur went back to white. I could only really see keeping the EPS white.

STS-1 and 2 were white. It gives photo ops for a prettier bird, then many of those photos get used forever. Even in the 80s, eliminating the paint saved $2m/flight.
More importantly increased available payload mass...
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Offline redliox

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #537 on: 11/20/2014 06:24 pm »
Courtesy of Boeing and the Planetary Society's site, here is SLS with a trio of concept spacecraft within its fairing.  From left to right they are Uranus Orbiter-Probe, ATLAST, and an Interstellar Mission (that resembles Europa Clipper a lot).

http://planetary.s3.amazonaws.com/assets/images/spacecraft/2014/20141119_planetary-concepts.png
« Last Edit: 11/20/2014 07:28 pm by Chris Bergin »
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Offline TomH

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #538 on: 11/20/2014 09:13 pm »
Courtesy of Boeing and the Planetary Society's site, here is SLS with a trio of concept spacecraft within its fairing.  From left to right they are Uranus Orbiter-Probe, ATLAST, and an Interstellar Mission (that resembles Europa Clipper a lot).

http://planetary.s3.amazonaws.com/assets/images/spacecraft/2014/20141119_planetary-concepts.png

Beautiful eye candy. Too bad it's not from actual mission plans.

Offline sdsds

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Re: SLS Development Stage UPDATE Thread (2)
« Reply #539 on: 11/22/2014 06:10 am »
Blackstar posted slides from this presentation by Kurt Klaus on another thread, but they inform the general SLS discussion so fully the presentation seems to deserve a mention here as well.

The Space Launch System and the Proving Ground:  Pathways to Mars
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/leag2014/presentations/klaus.pdf

It was presented at the Annual Meeting of the Lunar Exploration Analysis Group on Friday, October 24, 2014.
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