Blue Origin New Glenn Thread 2: Updates and Discussion

[meekGee]

Why is a 2nd stage - full of LH2- being tested indoors at all?
That's a recipe for disaster.

Because it wasn't full of LH2, but H2O(l).

But if it were full of liquid water it wouldn't have imploded.

You are mixing up two separate events:

Event one:
The GS2 stage that was tested indoors was in the 2CAT pressure testing facility. Technically speaking the stage is indoors: it is sitting inside an enclosed structure with a huge sliding door closing off the entrance. This stage went kaput during hydrostatic pressure testing, resulting in the sliding door being blown off and a LOT of water going places where it wasn't supposed to go. Technically speaking this stage burst wide open with the remains collapsing under their own weight.

Event two:
The GS2 stage that crumpled (not an implosion, crumpling is fairly slow, implosion is very fast) was NOT being tested. It was a flight GS2 stage that had sat outdoors in the hot Florida sun for some time. When it was moved back indoors, into an airconditioned building, the hot air inside the stage cooled down, shrinking in the process. Normally a bunch of valves would be open so that outside air could be sucked in to keep the inside pressure equal to the outside pressure. However, per reporting, the valves were either sealed or ventilation openings were taped over.
Anyway: the result was that the stage crumpled to the point that it was crushed like a beer can.


So, that's TWO, repeat TWO, GS2 stages going kaput. One is now in a lot of pieces and the other resembles a crushed beer can.

He should have said exploded.

In a hydrostatic test, the stored energy is a lot less than in a regular (gas) test at the same pressure.

A regular explosion of a tank this big would have rudded the entire building.

But! If it's the bottom of the tank that lets go, and if the dome completely and quickly separates, you get a limited form of water bottle rocket...  Which is what I think happened.

[catdlr]

The recent New Shepard launch BO gave us this photo of the aft second being integrated into S1.

[Robert_the_Doll]

The GS2 stage is nearly ready for its debut
https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/09/blue-origin-to-roll-out-new-glenn-second-stage-enter-final-phase-of-launch-prep/

[JCRM]

The recent New Shepard launch BO gave us this photo of the aft second being integrated into S1.

Was there any indication of the date? It's obviously since the end of May.

... and an explanation for a Scotts flag?

[spacebleachers]

The recent New Shepard launch BO gave us this photo of the aft second being integrated into S1.

... and an explanation for a Scotts flag?

That’s a state of Florida flag

[woods170]

You are mixing up two separate events:

Event one:
The GS2 stage that was tested indoors was in the 2CAT pressure testing facility. Technically speaking the stage is indoors: it is sitting inside an enclosed structure with a huge sliding door closing off the entrance. This stage went kaput during hydrostatic pressure testing, resulting in the sliding door being blown off and a LOT of water going places where it wasn't supposed to go. Technically speaking this stage burst wide open with the remains collapsing under their own weight.

Event two:
The GS2 stage that crumpled (not an implosion, crumpling is fairly slow, implosion is very fast) was NOT being tested. It was a flight GS2 stage that had sat outdoors in the hot Florida sun for some time. When it was moved back indoors, into an airconditioned building, the hot air inside the stage cooled down, shrinking in the process. Normally a bunch of valves would be open so that outside air could be sucked in to keep the inside pressure equal to the outside pressure. However, per reporting, the valves were either sealed or ventilation openings were taped over.
Anyway: the result was that the stage crumpled to the point that it was crushed like a beer can.


So, that's TWO, repeat TWO, GS2 stages going kaput. One is now in a lot of pieces and the other resembles a crushed beer can.

He should have said exploded.

In a hydrostatic test, the stored energy is a lot less than in a regular (gas) test at the same pressure.

A regular explosion of a tank this big would have rudded the entire building.

But! If it's the bottom of the tank that lets go, and if the dome completely and quickly separates, you get a limited form of water bottle rocket...  Which is what I think happened.

Let's just say that what you think what happened is very close to what actually happened.

[mn]

You are mixing up two separate events:

Event one:
The GS2 stage that was tested indoors was in the 2CAT pressure testing facility. Technically speaking the stage is indoors: it is sitting inside an enclosed structure with a huge sliding door closing off the entrance. This stage went kaput during hydrostatic pressure testing, resulting in the sliding door being blown off and a LOT of water going places where it wasn't supposed to go. Technically speaking this stage burst wide open with the remains collapsing under their own weight.

Event two:
The GS2 stage that crumpled (not an implosion, crumpling is fairly slow, implosion is very fast) was NOT being tested. It was a flight GS2 stage that had sat outdoors in the hot Florida sun for some time. When it was moved back indoors, into an airconditioned building, the hot air inside the stage cooled down, shrinking in the process. Normally a bunch of valves would be open so that outside air could be sucked in to keep the inside pressure equal to the outside pressure. However, per reporting, the valves were either sealed or ventilation openings were taped over.
Anyway: the result was that the stage crumpled to the point that it was crushed like a beer can.


So, that's TWO, repeat TWO, GS2 stages going kaput. One is now in a lot of pieces and the other resembles a crushed beer can.

He should have said exploded.

In a hydrostatic test, the stored energy is a lot less than in a regular (gas) test at the same pressure.

A regular explosion of a tank this big would have rudded the entire building.

But! If it's the bottom of the tank that lets go, and if the dome completely and quickly separates, you get a limited form of water bottle rocket...  Which is what I think happened.

Let's just say that what you think what happened is very close to what actually happened.

So they were trying to copy the Arca EcoRocket

[meekGee]

You are mixing up two separate events:

Event one:
The GS2 stage that was tested indoors was in the 2CAT pressure testing facility. Technically speaking the stage is indoors: it is sitting inside an enclosed structure with a huge sliding door closing off the entrance. This stage went kaput during hydrostatic pressure testing, resulting in the sliding door being blown off and a LOT of water going places where it wasn't supposed to go. Technically speaking this stage burst wide open with the remains collapsing under their own weight.

Event two:
The GS2 stage that crumpled (not an implosion, crumpling is fairly slow, implosion is very fast) was NOT being tested. It was a flight GS2 stage that had sat outdoors in the hot Florida sun for some time. When it was moved back indoors, into an airconditioned building, the hot air inside the stage cooled down, shrinking in the process. Normally a bunch of valves would be open so that outside air could be sucked in to keep the inside pressure equal to the outside pressure. However, per reporting, the valves were either sealed or ventilation openings were taped over.
Anyway: the result was that the stage crumpled to the point that it was crushed like a beer can.


So, that's TWO, repeat TWO, GS2 stages going kaput. One is now in a lot of pieces and the other resembles a crushed beer can.

He should have said exploded.

In a hydrostatic test, the stored energy is a lot less than in a regular (gas) test at the same pressure.

A regular explosion of a tank this big would have rudded the entire building.

But! If it's the bottom of the tank that lets go, and if the dome completely and quickly separates, you get a limited form of water bottle rocket...  Which is what I think happened.

Let's just say that what you think what happened is very close to what actually happened.

Must have been quite the sight.

The energy was stored in strain ("stretching") of the skin. I'm imagining all the water being pushed down, and the remaining rocket shell flying up.  It doesn't carry all the water, so it picks up a lot of velocity.

Maybe it's more of a rubber band gun than a water bottle rocket.

Damn! All of my favorite childhood toys, but scaled up by about a million.

[AS-503]

You are mixing up two separate events:

Event one:
The GS2 stage that was tested indoors was in the 2CAT pressure testing facility. Technically speaking the stage is indoors: it is sitting inside an enclosed structure with a huge sliding door closing off the entrance. This stage went kaput during hydrostatic pressure testing, resulting in the sliding door being blown off and a LOT of water going places where it wasn't supposed to go. Technically speaking this stage burst wide open with the remains collapsing under their own weight.

Event two:
The GS2 stage that crumpled (not an implosion, crumpling is fairly slow, implosion is very fast) was NOT being tested. It was a flight GS2 stage that had sat outdoors in the hot Florida sun for some time. When it was moved back indoors, into an airconditioned building, the hot air inside the stage cooled down, shrinking in the process. Normally a bunch of valves would be open so that outside air could be sucked in to keep the inside pressure equal to the outside pressure. However, per reporting, the valves were either sealed or ventilation openings were taped over.
Anyway: the result was that the stage crumpled to the point that it was crushed like a beer can.


So, that's TWO, repeat TWO, GS2 stages going kaput. One is now in a lot of pieces and the other resembles a crushed beer can.

He should have said exploded.

In a hydrostatic test, the stored energy is a lot less than in a regular (gas) test at the same pressure.

A regular explosion of a tank this big would have rudded the entire building.

But! If it's the bottom of the tank that lets go, and if the dome completely and quickly separates, you get a limited form of water bottle rocket...  Which is what I think happened.

Let's just say that what you think what happened is very close to what actually happened.

So they were trying to copy the Arca EcoRocket

This phenomenon happen when the external tank failed on Challenger.
From the Roger's Commission:
At 73.124 seconds, a circumferential white vapor pattern was observed blooming from the side of the External Tank bottom dome. This was the beginning of the structural failure of the hydrogen tank that culminated in the entire aft dome dropping away. This released massive amounts of liquid hydrogen from the tank and created a sudden forward thrust of about 2.~3 million pounds, pushing the hydrogen tank upward into the intertank structure. At about the same time, the rotating right Solid Rocket Booster impacted the intertank structure and the lower part of the liquid oxygen tank. These structures failed at 73.137 seconds as evidenced by the white vapors appearing in the intertank region.

https://www.nasa.gov/history/rogersrep/v1ch3.htm

[launchwatcher]

You are mixing up two separate events:

Event one:
The GS2 stage that was tested indoors was in the 2CAT pressure testing facility. Technically speaking the stage is indoors: it is sitting inside an enclosed structure with a huge sliding door closing off the entrance. This stage went kaput during hydrostatic pressure testing, resulting in the sliding door being blown off and a LOT of water going places where it wasn't supposed to go. Technically speaking this stage burst wide open with the remains collapsing under their own weight.

Event two:
The GS2 stage that crumpled (not an implosion, crumpling is fairly slow, implosion is very fast) was NOT being tested. It was a flight GS2 stage that had sat outdoors in the hot Florida sun for some time. When it was moved back indoors, into an airconditioned building, the hot air inside the stage cooled down, shrinking in the process. Normally a bunch of valves would be open so that outside air could be sucked in to keep the inside pressure equal to the outside pressure. However, per reporting, the valves were either sealed or ventilation openings were taped over.
Anyway: the result was that the stage crumpled to the point that it was crushed like a beer can.


So, that's TWO, repeat TWO, GS2 stages going kaput. One is now in a lot of pieces and the other resembles a crushed beer can.

He should have said exploded.

In a hydrostatic test, the stored energy is a lot less than in a regular (gas) test at the same pressure.

A regular explosion of a tank this big would have rudded the entire building.

But! If it's the bottom of the tank that lets go, and if the dome completely and quickly separates, you get a limited form of water bottle rocket...  Which is what I think happened.

Let's just say that what you think what happened is very close to what actually happened.

Must have been quite the sight.

The energy was stored in strain ("stretching") of the skin. I'm imagining all the water being pushed down, and the remaining rocket shell flying up.  It doesn't carry all the water, so it picks up a lot of velocity.

As video of this incident doesn't seem to be generally available, here's a stand-in:

The Mythbusters intentionally induced a similar lower-dome failure in a tank-type hot water heater with all pressure relief safeties disabled - don't try this at home  .   This one failed at 336 PSI / 21.5 bar:

[Robert_the_Doll]

https://x.com/blueorigin/status/1831083772134969708

We’re looking forward to firing up those two BE-3Us on New Glenn’s second stage in a few days.

[Asteroza]

https://x.com/blueorigin/status/1831083772134969708

We’re looking forward to firing up those two BE-3Us on New Glenn’s second stage in a few days.

Wait, they do standalone second stage static fires at the pad? Is that a first for an expendable or semi-expendable launcher?

[whitelancer64]

https://x.com/blueorigin/status/1831083772134969708

We’re looking forward to firing up those two BE-3Us on New Glenn’s second stage in a few days.

Wait, they do standalone second stage static fires at the pad? Is that a first for an expendable or semi-expendable launcher?

I believe it's a first for a second stage static fire on the vehicle's launch pad. If it's been done before it would have been in the 50s.

[Robert_the_Doll]

https://x.com/blueorigin/status/1831083772134969708

We’re looking forward to firing up those two BE-3Us on New Glenn’s second stage in a few days.

Wait, they do standalone second stage static fires at the pad? Is that a first for an expendable or semi-expendable launcher?

They have been doing tanking tests for years at LC-36 with development and qualification articles. Those did not have engines, however, and this allows for static hotfires with a rig that can hold the stage down against the thrust.

[Robert_the_Doll]

https://x.com/JerryPikePhoto/status/1831119199244026129

New Glenn stage 2 ready for testing on Blue Origin's Pad 36 this afternoon

[catdlr]

https://x.com/blueorigin/status/1831083772134969708

We’re looking forward to firing up those two BE-3Us on New Glenn’s second stage in a few days.

Wait, they do standalone second stage static fires at the pad? Is that a first for an expendable or semi-expendable launcher?

....however, and this allows for static hotfires with a rig that can hold the stage down against the thrust.

Robert,

It seems that the S2 TEL has a flame flange (Green Highlighted) (for lack of a better word) that connects to the S1 hold-downs (Red Highlighted). This means that the S2 Tel isn't required to bear the thrust. I assume that the S2 Tel has the Ground Support Equipment (GSE) (Purple Highlighted) plate up against the stage and connected to the pad GSE fuel and data sources.  Clever; no need for a heavy test stand (or TEL) to support the thrust; use the existing pad instead for combo usage.

[Tywin]

The recent New Shepard launch BO gave us this photo of the aft second being integrated into S1.

... and an explanation for a Scotts flag?

That’s a state of Florida flag

From the Spain Empire created...

[darkenfast]

https://x.com/blueorigin/status/1831083772134969708

We’re looking forward to firing up those two BE-3Us on New Glenn’s second stage in a few days.

Wait, they do standalone second stage static fires at the pad? Is that a first for an expendable or semi-expendable launcher?

I believe it's a first for a second stage static fire on the vehicle's launch pad. If it's been done before it would have been in the 50s.

Gemini/Titan II did that in the 60s. The second stage was craned into the lowered Erector, raised up, and fired. I'm not sure if that was common to all of the Titan family and/or for the whole Titan history. I'll bet some of our knowledge base here on NSF can tell us, because they were there!

[woods170]

You are mixing up two separate events:

Event one:
The GS2 stage that was tested indoors was in the 2CAT pressure testing facility. Technically speaking the stage is indoors: it is sitting inside an enclosed structure with a huge sliding door closing off the entrance. This stage went kaput during hydrostatic pressure testing, resulting in the sliding door being blown off and a LOT of water going places where it wasn't supposed to go. Technically speaking this stage burst wide open with the remains collapsing under their own weight.

Event two:
The GS2 stage that crumpled (not an implosion, crumpling is fairly slow, implosion is very fast) was NOT being tested. It was a flight GS2 stage that had sat outdoors in the hot Florida sun for some time. When it was moved back indoors, into an airconditioned building, the hot air inside the stage cooled down, shrinking in the process. Normally a bunch of valves would be open so that outside air could be sucked in to keep the inside pressure equal to the outside pressure. However, per reporting, the valves were either sealed or ventilation openings were taped over.
Anyway: the result was that the stage crumpled to the point that it was crushed like a beer can.


So, that's TWO, repeat TWO, GS2 stages going kaput. One is now in a lot of pieces and the other resembles a crushed beer can.

He should have said exploded.

In a hydrostatic test, the stored energy is a lot less than in a regular (gas) test at the same pressure.

A regular explosion of a tank this big would have rudded the entire building.

But! If it's the bottom of the tank that lets go, and if the dome completely and quickly separates, you get a limited form of water bottle rocket...  Which is what I think happened.

Let's just say that what you think what happened is very close to what actually happened.

Must have been quite the sight.
<snip>

Not really. The New Glenn tanks have design properties that make them fail "benignly" if a weld fails. This wasn't a Mythbusters-style water heater that launched itself. The failure more closely resembled the SLS LH2 tank test-to-destruction failure, however with water, instead of nitrogen, and with a dome weld failing instead of a barrel weld failure.

[harrystranger]

Finally got a good satellite view of the 2CAT facility after the loss of its door. The remains of the large blue door can be seen laying on the ground.
https://twitter.com/Harry__Stranger/status/1831647361103491465