Author Topic: Relativity Space: General Thread  (Read 364148 times)

Online catdlr

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Re: Relativity Space: General Thread
« Reply #860 on: 04/03/2024 09:11 pm »
https://twitter.com/relativityspace/status/1775564623145771170

Quote
Relativity Space
@relativityspace🚀 ICYMI: @payloadspace's first annual edition of The State of Launch by @jacqfeldscher, featuring commentary from CEO @thetimellis
.
https://payloadspace.com/the-state-of-launch/

Article Link: https://payloadspace.com/the-state-of-launch/
It's Tony De La Rosa, ...I don't create this stuff, I just report it.

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Relativity Space: General Thread
« Reply #861 on: 04/04/2024 07:02 am »
https://twitter.com/relativityspace/status/1775564623145771170

Quote
Relativity Space
@relativityspace ICYMI: @payloadspace's first annual edition of The State of Launch by @jacqfeldscher, featuring commentary from CEO @thetimellis
.
https://payloadspace.com/the-state-of-launch/

Article Link: https://payloadspace.com/the-state-of-launch/
These reporters really need to do some fact checking or maths 10 last year x2 =20 not 50
.
"
Beck, however, argued that the space industry still needs a dedicated small launch vehicle, and held up Electron as proof. The small launcher rocket is expected to launch 50+ times this year, doubling the launch cadence from the year before. 
"
« Last Edit: 04/04/2024 07:03 am by TrevorMonty »

Online catdlr

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Re: Relativity Space: General Thread
« Reply #862 on: 04/05/2024 07:12 pm »


Quote
Apr 5, 2024
Join the aerodynamics team on a behind-the-scenes deep dive into Terran R wind tunnel testing at NASA Langley Unitary Plan Wind Tunnel facility.

Simulating a Terran R flight, the data collected is crucial in determining driving load cases for a reliable and reusable Terran R, informing critical design points and cases to ensure stage 1 landing back on Earth.

00:00 – 00:44 Why invest in a model and wind tunnel testing?
00:45 – 1:04 What are the key advantages of wind tunnel testing?
1:05 – 1:43 What is a wind tunnel?
1:44 – 2:10 NASA Langley UPWT facilities overview
2:11 – 2:55 Testing objectives
2:55 – 3:31 Units of measurement: Mach, Reynolds, and Schlieren
3:32 – 4:13 End goal: Stage 1 safe re-entry
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Online catdlr

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Re: Relativity Space: General Thread
« Reply #863 on: 04/10/2024 06:29 pm »
https://twitter.com/relativityspace/status/1778122303311949945

Quote
Relativity Space
@relativityspace
POV: Rejuvenating 60 years of history at the A2 test stand
@NASAStennis
.
⚡Welders in action
🚿 Interior blasting completed
🌅 Views for days
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Online catdlr

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Re: Relativity Space: General Thread
« Reply #864 on: 04/16/2024 05:39 pm »
https://twitter.com/relativityspace/status/1780287280432980431

Quote
Relativity Space
@relativityspace
Soarin’ over Launch Complex 16, Cape Canaveral, FL. – making room for something big, #TerranR launch pad in progress.
✔️ Site cleared
✔️ Site grubbed
🔁 Waterline install in progress
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Online catdlr

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Re: Relativity Space: General Thread
« Reply #865 on: 04/19/2024 08:41 pm »
https://twitter.com/relativityspace/status/1781417883383558147

https://twitter.com/relativityspace/status/1781417954464452976

https://twitter.com/relativityspace/status/1781418165152710994

Relativity Space
@relativityspace
New wallpaper alert: A thread of a few of our favorite things. 💎

#AeonR thrust chamber assembly pics.
« Last Edit: 04/19/2024 08:42 pm by catdlr »
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Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Relativity Space: General Thread
« Reply #866 on: 08/23/2024 05:37 pm »


https://twitter.com/relativityspace/status/1827036626410992067

Quote
Welcome to the MET Lab. 👇 We're going behind the scenes of tensile coupon testing – yes, intentionally breaking metal.
youtu.be/tQvY4dHvdjU

Materials engineer Mikaila Risser gives us a breakdown of tensile testing, a key process for production prints. 🛠️

A tensile test involves pulling a dog bone-shaped tensile coupon on a tensile frame. This measures the stress and strain at the breaking point, as well as the elastic modulus and elongation reduction. 📊

These tests help us understand material properties, ensuring quality and guiding the production process. If the material doesn't meet expectations, it gets flagged as non-conformant. 🚀

If a material underperforms, it's taken to the powder bed fusion (PBF) and materials and processes (M&P) teams for assessment. 🔍

Further testing, like analyzing fracture surfaces with microscopes, helps identify why the material failed. 🧐

The most exciting part of these tests? The break! After patiently watching metal stretch, it finally breaks with a loud bang. It’s a moment that never loses its thrill, even for seasoned engineers. 💥

Online catdlr

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« Last Edit: 09/04/2024 12:42 pm by catdlr »
It's Tony De La Rosa, ...I don't create this stuff, I just report it.

Offline TheKutKu

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Re: Relativity Space: General Thread
« Reply #868 on: 09/04/2024 12:50 pm »
Looking at their backlog and the fact that their valuation seems to stick despite their controversial decision to stop Terran 1 (and scale back 3D printing rocket, as they should), they seem to be doing... alright?

Berger tries to spin this slightly negatively but this article actually gives more confidence in Relativity if anything. Maybe not as a company that'll thrive long term but at least one that'll get to orbit and honour its existing contracts.
 
The part about Relativity potentially failling to control cost without "full vertical integration" is not convincing given the examples he gives, since SpaceX never managed to drop expendable fairing cost significantly below RUAG/Beyong Gravity's (both went for the same 5-6 millions in the mid-late 2010s, give or take varying Euro/Franc/USD rate), which is why they did fairing reuse, which BG is also pursuing now.
« Last Edit: 09/04/2024 01:14 pm by TheKutKu »

Offline trimeta

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Re: Relativity Space: General Thread
« Reply #869 on: 09/04/2024 02:28 pm »
The most interesting part of that article, as far as I'm concerned:

Quote
According to internal documents reviewed by Ars, Relativity had difficulty printing pressure domes for the Terran R rocket. One of the documents references a "large buckling event" with a printed dome. As a result, Relativity seems likely to purchase these pressure domes from a European aerospace company.

If Relativity really is abandoning 3D printed tank domes, that was the last use case for their large-scale Stargate printers. The entire rocket body is now being built conventionally, and the complex geometries (everything but barrel sections) are being built by traditional European aerospace companies. So the only 3D printing remaining at Relativity is in their engines, which is hardly unique (many New Space companies talk about how they're incorporating 3D printing into engine design and development).

Re: Relativity Space: General Thread
« Reply #870 on: 09/04/2024 02:52 pm »
I feel like we haven't talked about how Relativity's movement away from 3D printing everything connects to their declared vision of 3D printing rockets on Mars. If that was really the driving goal behind the company, then buying tank domes manufactured traditionally by a 3rd party would seem to represent, at least for the moment, a total failure of their core premise.

This isn't really a criticism of them as a launch provider or a business, mind you. But we often talk on this forum about appreciating companies with a vision, and it kind of feel like Relativity is at least severely straying from their stated vision.
« Last Edit: 09/04/2024 08:10 pm by JEF_300 »
Wait, ∆V? This site will accept the ∆ symbol? How many times have I written out the word "delta" for no reason?

Offline playadelmars

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Re: Relativity Space: General Thread
« Reply #871 on: 09/04/2024 04:14 pm »
They said somewhere else, they have $30m in new contracts from the US govt for the 3D printing business. That’s not a huge number yet for the valuation overall, not versus $2.6B in launch backlog for Terran R, but it’s still alive and well. Maybe they just decoupled the timeline for now, but as the printing tech develops, roll it back into the designs?

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Relativity Space: General Thread
« Reply #872 on: 09/04/2024 08:06 pm »
 Unlike competition Relativity is building large LV without any previous experience operating a launch company with regular launches. ULA, SpaceX, Ariane, RL all have years of experience behind them. Blue and Firefly to some extent also have bit flight experience, Blue operating NS and Firefly with Alpha plus what ever advice Northrop Grumman want to give them. Firefly's MLV has Antares launch infrastructure which is good head start and big saving.
Knowledge gained from failures on previous LVs helps to make new LVs more reliable. 

Even if they have a few successful launches that is no guarantee of success, VO ran out of money even though they had operational LV. All competition are well financed except Firefly, but they are running a very lean business with other revenue streams.

Offline Asteroza

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Re: Relativity Space: General Thread
« Reply #873 on: 09/04/2024 10:12 pm »
The most interesting part of that article, as far as I'm concerned:

Quote
According to internal documents reviewed by Ars, Relativity had difficulty printing pressure domes for the Terran R rocket. One of the documents references a "large buckling event" with a printed dome. As a result, Relativity seems likely to purchase these pressure domes from a European aerospace company.

If Relativity really is abandoning 3D printed tank domes, that was the last use case for their large-scale Stargate printers. The entire rocket body is now being built conventionally, and the complex geometries (everything but barrel sections) are being built by traditional European aerospace companies. So the only 3D printing remaining at Relativity is in their engines, which is hardly unique (many New Space companies talk about how they're incorporating 3D printing into engine design and development).

I wonder if there's a size component to all this? As in large format 3D printing is harder, thus the Stargate printers themselves ultimately didn't work out for high dimensional stability?

Offline trimeta

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Re: Relativity Space: General Thread
« Reply #874 on: 09/05/2024 12:58 am »
The most interesting part of that article, as far as I'm concerned:

Quote
According to internal documents reviewed by Ars, Relativity had difficulty printing pressure domes for the Terran R rocket. One of the documents references a "large buckling event" with a printed dome. As a result, Relativity seems likely to purchase these pressure domes from a European aerospace company.

If Relativity really is abandoning 3D printed tank domes, that was the last use case for their large-scale Stargate printers. The entire rocket body is now being built conventionally, and the complex geometries (everything but barrel sections) are being built by traditional European aerospace companies. So the only 3D printing remaining at Relativity is in their engines, which is hardly unique (many New Space companies talk about how they're incorporating 3D printing into engine design and development).

I wonder if there's a size component to all this? As in large format 3D printing is harder, thus the Stargate printers themselves ultimately didn't work out for high dimensional stability?

Their large-format printers use a fundamentally different technology from what's applied to engine components: the Stargate printers use wire as the feedstock, while for engines they use off-the-shelf metal powder bed printers (although maybe with some custom software for inspection and control, I don't know). Perhaps the wire-based approach just can't hit the metrics needed for aerospace-grade structures (at least, without significant excess mass, which itself may invalidate the label "aerospace-grade").

Offline jongoff

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Re: Relativity Space: General Thread
« Reply #875 on: 09/05/2024 01:48 am »
The most interesting part of that article, as far as I'm concerned:

Quote
According to internal documents reviewed by Ars, Relativity had difficulty printing pressure domes for the Terran R rocket. One of the documents references a "large buckling event" with a printed dome. As a result, Relativity seems likely to purchase these pressure domes from a European aerospace company.

If Relativity really is abandoning 3D printed tank domes, that was the last use case for their large-scale Stargate printers. The entire rocket body is now being built conventionally, and the complex geometries (everything but barrel sections) are being built by traditional European aerospace companies. So the only 3D printing remaining at Relativity is in their engines, which is hardly unique (many New Space companies talk about how they're incorporating 3D printing into engine design and development).

I wonder if there's a size component to all this? As in large format 3D printing is harder, thus the Stargate printers themselves ultimately didn't work out for high dimensional stability?

To be fair, them deciding to move large-scale AM off of the critical path for their initial version of Terran-R doesn't necessarily mean that they've completely abandoned the technology, or have no intention of working it back in down the road. It could mean that, but it could also just be a pragmatic decision to get them to a revenue positive point while they keep their AM tech development going, but off the critical path to revenue.

~Jon


Offline jongoff

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Re: Relativity Space: General Thread
« Reply #876 on: 09/05/2024 01:58 am »
To be clear, I think that cylindrical tank walls are one of the least likely components for large-scale AM to be optimal for. Tank domes are more likely (complex geometry, lots of welds and lots of weld penetrations already), but also not a slam dunk. The right answer for how much of the structure wants to be 3d printed might only be a small subset of the whole. Just saying that Relativity buying tank domes to expedite their time to market doesn't necessarily mean they're abandoning the tech forever.

~Jon

Online M.E.T.

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Re: Relativity Space: General Thread
« Reply #877 on: 09/05/2024 05:42 am »
So what exactly is Relativity’s competitive advantage at this point?


Offline deltaV

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Re: Relativity Space: General Thread
« Reply #878 on: 09/05/2024 08:48 am »
So what exactly is Relativity’s competitive advantage at this point?

AFAICT additive manufacturing was never actually a significant Relativity competitive advantage because many of their competitors were using additive manufacturing when it makes sense.

One competitive advantage Relativity has is their launcher Terran R should be big enough and US enough to be eligible for NSSL lane 2. Terran R's development was a bit too late to be eligible for lane 2 this year but they have a chance of being one of the three lane 2 winners next time in ~2030. To do so they need a third stage (or buy one, e.g. Impulse Space's Helios may work) and need to expend their first stage for the hardest missions. To win lane 2 business they need to not be last out of 4 launchers: Falcon/Starship, New Glenn, Vulcan, and their Terran R. Doing so is certainly not easy since those competitors are all either experienced or well funded but it may be easier than winning commercial launch contracts. Commercial contracts are harder to win because Relativity faces not only the 3 lane 2 competitors but also smaller launchers such as Neutron and Nova and foreign launchers.

Online M.E.T.

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Re: Relativity Space: General Thread
« Reply #879 on: 09/05/2024 09:41 am »
So what exactly is Relativity’s competitive advantage at this point?

AFAICT additive manufacturing was never actually a significant Relativity competitive advantage because many of their competitors were using additive manufacturing when it makes sense.

One competitive advantage Relativity has is their launcher Terran R should be big enough and US enough to be eligible for NSSL lane 2. Terran R's development was a bit too late to be eligible for lane 2 this year but they have a chance of being one of the three lane 2 winners next time in ~2030. To do so they need a third stage (or buy one, e.g. Impulse Space's Helios may work) and need to expend their first stage for the hardest missions. To win lane 2 business they need to not be last out of 4 launchers: Falcon/Starship, New Glenn, Vulcan, and their Terran R. Doing so is certainly not easy since those competitors are all either experienced or well funded but it may be easier than winning commercial launch contracts. Commercial contracts are harder to win because Relativity faces not only the 3 lane 2 competitors but also smaller launchers such as Neutron and Nova and foreign launchers.

Well ok. But here’s my assessment of the current status of their differentiators:

- It’s not additive manufacturing anymore, (which was the basis for their billion dollar SPAC deal).

- It’s not full reusability anymore.

- It’s not being the first mover or even the first follower to F9 anymore.

- It’s not vertical integration anymore.

- It’s not efficient logistics given Eric’s article on the complexity of shipping their rocket from the West Coast to Stennis to the Cape just to get it to the launchpad.

- And it’s not even a big pot of SPAC money anymore, as Ellis all but confirmed to Eric that they will probably need to raise more cash to get Terran R to a first launch sometime after 2026.

And to think that before Stoke and before Neutron, they were the guys who were going to knock SpaceX off their perch. And so the game continues as the contenders keep rising and falling by the wayside.

Edit

I of course recall some robust debates with a few esteemed members of our forum who were waxing lyrical about Relativity not so long ago. And the praise singing seemed to transfer smoothly to Stoke after Relativity fell out of favour. Rinse and repeat.
« Last Edit: 09/05/2024 09:51 am by M.E.T. »

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