Author Topic: SpaceX Announces Independent Safety Advisory Panel  (Read 30008 times)

Offline simonbp

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Re: SpaceX Announces Independent Safety Advisory Panel
« Reply #20 on: 03/29/2012 03:36 pm »
No, the term "independent" means something.  That you are free and clear of any conflicts of interest.  I know it has been used in the past by other groups, that were being paid, and I thought it was silly to call it that then too. 

If someone is being paid by someone else to provide some sort of service, safety or otherwise, then they are under contract.  They are not "independent". 

This is not a "bash-SpaceX" thing, this is reality, so don't feel you have to rush to their defense. 

I think this is what you are looking for:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditor_independence

Assuming SpaceX follows the standards they would have to for a regulator-approved financial audit, it would be fair to call this an independent panel.
« Last Edit: 03/29/2012 03:37 pm by simonbp »

Offline Blackjax

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Re: SpaceX Announces Independent Safety Advisory Panel
« Reply #21 on: 03/29/2012 03:38 pm »

As some Apollo era folks pointed out, "they don't know what they don't know"...but that situation is fixable if you tap the right people for their insights.

And so how are these people the "right" ones?

Please don't misunderstand, I am not making the assertion that they are, or that this panel qualifies with the theoretical contracting situation I outlined earlier which could theoretically produce a relatively unbiased and trustworthy report.  I was simply pointing out that the devil is in the details of the structure and intent of something like this and that people going off half cocked about the merit of it need to look more closely before making a determination of that.

Offline Namechange User

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Re: SpaceX Announces Independent Safety Advisory Panel
« Reply #22 on: 03/29/2012 03:44 pm »
...and that people going off half cocked about the merit of it need to look more closely before making a determination of that.

Not a single post in this thread thus far has said the basic concept was a bad idea. 

People are discussing the mechanisms and what the authority of this panel would be.  How that interfaces and folds into the decision making process and what happens if and when they disagree with something "corporate" SpaceX wants to do. 
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Offline robertross

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Re: SpaceX Announces Independent Safety Advisory Panel
« Reply #23 on: 03/29/2012 03:45 pm »
Something else is bothering me.

NASA has provided guidelines for crew launch vehicle designs to meet CCDev, and for Commercial Crew Services Requirements. Are they sort of saying what NASA proposes (in terms of requirements) isn't good enough for commercial spaceflight?

Maybe I'm missing something thinking NASA woule supposedly be a stricter requirements level than any other (necessary).

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: SpaceX Announces Independent Safety Advisory Panel
« Reply #24 on: 03/29/2012 03:48 pm »
Something else is bothering me.

NASA has provided guidelines for crew launch vehicle designs to meet CCDev, and for Commercial Crew Services Requirements. Are they sort of saying what NASA proposes (in terms of requirements) isn't good enough for commercial spaceflight?

Maybe I'm missing something thinking NASA woule supposedly be a stricter requirements level than any other (necessary).
NASA isn't infinitely wise. Another opinion is good.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

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Offline dragon44

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Re: SpaceX Announces Independent Safety Advisory Panel
« Reply #25 on: 03/29/2012 03:51 pm »
I think this is what you are looking for:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditor_independence

Assuming SpaceX follows the standards they would have to for a regulator-approved financial audit, it would be fair to call this an independent panel.

I think this is an important point. If you define independent to mean "not paid by" then you can throw out ISO-9000, CMMI, etc. Just about every external company audit is paid for by the company. The only way around that is to have the government do the audit and SpaceX already has that oversight.

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: SpaceX Announces Independent Safety Advisory Panel
« Reply #26 on: 03/29/2012 03:52 pm »
For genuine independence control and payment of the team needs transferring to the FAA.

Some of the proposed flights are non-NASA so NASA would be the wrong body to act as regulator.

Offline Namechange User

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Re: SpaceX Announces Independent Safety Advisory Panel
« Reply #27 on: 03/29/2012 03:55 pm »
Something else is bothering me.

NASA has provided guidelines for crew launch vehicle designs to meet CCDev, and for Commercial Crew Services Requirements. Are they sort of saying what NASA proposes (in terms of requirements) isn't good enough for commercial spaceflight?

Maybe I'm missing something thinking NASA woule supposedly be a stricter requirements level than any other (necessary).

I don't think SpaceX is saying that.  In reality, this is all political and this is for show.  While this will anger some "amazing peoples" around here, they're looking to score points with NASA by saying "look what we did". 

Nothing wrong with that in theory and this isn't something new.  Just speculation on how this fits into the process and what kind of teeth it really has. 
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Offline LegendCJS

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Re: SpaceX Announces Independent Safety Advisory Panel
« Reply #28 on: 03/29/2012 03:57 pm »
Something else is bothering me.

NASA has provided guidelines for crew launch vehicle designs to meet CCDev, and for Commercial Crew Services Requirements. Are they sort of saying what NASA proposes (in terms of requirements) isn't good enough for commercial spaceflight?


No, but some of the questions by politicians certainly seem to imply that they doubt the requirements are good enough.
Remember: if we want this whole space thing to work out we have to optimize for cost!

Offline Blackjax

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Re: SpaceX Announces Independent Safety Advisory Panel
« Reply #29 on: 03/29/2012 04:03 pm »
Something else is bothering me.

NASA has provided guidelines for crew launch vehicle designs to meet CCDev, and for Commercial Crew Services Requirements. Are they sort of saying what NASA proposes (in terms of requirements) isn't good enough for commercial spaceflight?

Maybe I'm missing something thinking NASA woule supposedly be a stricter requirements level than any other (necessary).

Not every set of guidelines, requirements, rules, or regulations produces the net benefit it was originally intended to provide.  Much like in the engineering field, design matters.  A great example is ITAR, which was was strict and well intentioned but poorly designed.  Even well designed guidelines, requirements, rules, or regulations don't necessarily represent the end all be all solution for ensuring a given outcome.

NASA may have provided something really great, really poor, or somewhere in between, but just because NASA has provided something doesn't mean it is the final word on the issue. 
« Last Edit: 03/29/2012 04:10 pm by Blackjax »

Offline Namechange User

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Re: SpaceX Announces Independent Safety Advisory Panel
« Reply #30 on: 03/29/2012 04:07 pm »
NASA may have provided something really great, really poor, or somewhere in between, but just because NASA has provided something doesn't mean it is the final word on the issue. 

Actually it does.  The reason?  Because they are NASA's requirements and NASA is the customer.  If any provider/contractor does not like them, take them up with NASA and work through the issue to come to some mutual conclusion where a variety of things could happen.  That's nothing new either. 

An "independent" panel employed by the company cannot do anything about that. 
« Last Edit: 03/29/2012 04:07 pm by OV-106 »
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Offline RDoc

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Re: SpaceX Announces Independent Safety Advisory Panel
« Reply #31 on: 03/29/2012 04:08 pm »
I read "independent" a bit differently.

Independent not in the sense of an independent outside prosecutor answerable to some separate body, but in the sense of a QA team within a company which is independent of the developers to add more assurance that the product was reliable.

I've seen and been part of such teams in the past and they can help a bit, although they are certainly not panaceas. It's good to have a fresh set of eyes, but hard to get everyone really up to speed who're not deep into the project. The times I saw it work well was mainly due to the developers explaining what was going on and themselves realizing possible holes rather than the outsiders coming up with new insights.

Offline Jim

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Re: SpaceX Announces Independent Safety Advisory Panel
« Reply #32 on: 03/29/2012 04:21 pm »
For genuine independence control and payment of the team needs transferring to the FAA.

Some of the proposed flights are non-NASA so NASA would be the wrong body to act as regulator.

No, that is not the job of the FAA.  FAA doesnt do it for airlines.  FAA does not advise, only regulates.  Spacex is not looking for a regulator.
« Last Edit: 03/29/2012 04:22 pm by Jim »

Offline robertross

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Re: SpaceX Announces Independent Safety Advisory Panel
« Reply #33 on: 03/29/2012 04:22 pm »
Something else is bothering me.

NASA has provided guidelines for crew launch vehicle designs to meet CCDev, and for Commercial Crew Services Requirements. Are they sort of saying what NASA proposes (in terms of requirements) isn't good enough for commercial spaceflight?


No, but some of the questions by politicians certainly seem to imply that they doubt the requirements are good enough.

Yeah, so what does that say about NASA?

It's like throwing them under the bus (in a slight manner speaking)

Online mmeijeri

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Re: SpaceX Announces Independent Safety Advisory Panel
« Reply #34 on: 03/29/2012 04:24 pm »
If oil companies didn't go with reputable reserves evaluators, no one would believe their reports anyways.   

That didn't work for Shell, who had a major reserves scandal, which cost some very senior managers their job (formerly potential CEO material).
Pro-tip: you don't have to be a jerk if someone doesn't agree with your theories

Offline Paul Adams

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Re: SpaceX Announces Independent Safety Advisory Panel
« Reply #35 on: 03/29/2012 04:30 pm »
I read "independent" a bit differently.

Independent not in the sense of an independent outside prosecutor answerable to some separate body, but in the sense of a QA team within a company which is independent of the developers to add more assurance that the product was reliable.

I've seen and been part of such teams in the past and they can help a bit, although they are certainly not panaceas. It's good to have a fresh set of eyes, but hard to get everyone really up to speed who're not deep into the project. The times I saw it work well was mainly due to the developers explaining what was going on and themselves realizing possible holes rather than the outsiders coming up with new insights.

Thank you RDoc, that is how I see it too. I have worked a number of complex, high tech, high risk projects where the company has brought in paid outside experts to review the work that has been done and asked them "are we missing anything"? They are independent of the company structure, can go anywhere and ask anything they like. They are an immensely valuable tool.

As for expertise, I think that anyone who has put their ass on a rocket and rode it to orbit can bring a great deal of relevance to any review and / or oversight of safety.

It's all in the data.

Offline Chris Bergin

Re: SpaceX Announces Independent Safety Advisory Panel
« Reply #36 on: 03/29/2012 04:30 pm »
Honestly!

How about they don't appoint this team? Everyone happier then? I don't believe they had to do this for CRS or CCDev, and I really couldn't care less if they are giving them all a free electric car. Something's better than nothing.

Everyone take a frakking step back.
« Last Edit: 03/29/2012 04:31 pm by Chris Bergin »
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Offline ugordan

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Re: SpaceX Announces Independent Safety Advisory Panel
« Reply #37 on: 03/29/2012 04:32 pm »
Never a dull day on this forum.

Offline robertross

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Re: SpaceX Announces Independent Safety Advisory Panel
« Reply #38 on: 03/29/2012 04:37 pm »
Honestly!

How about they don't appoint this team? Everyone happier then? I don't believe they had to do this for CRS or CCDev, and I really couldn't care less if they are giving them all a free electric car. Something's better than nothing.

Everyone take a frakking step back.

I think everyone's trying to determine 'exactly' what this 'something' is, that's all.

If I had to compare this news to the Boeing design, or the SNC design, I would have to say that you are trying to compete for a capability beyond NASA that does not yet exist.

Seeing as how they are all (supposedly) on level footing to gain a contract supply commercial crew services to NASA, it is either to get a leg up on the decision process (which NASA may or may not take into consideration), or to plan ahead for some as-yet-unannounced alternative destination.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: SpaceX Announces Independent Safety Advisory Panel
« Reply #39 on: 03/29/2012 04:37 pm »
Something else is bothering me.

NASA has provided guidelines for crew launch vehicle designs to meet CCDev, and for Commercial Crew Services Requirements. Are they sort of saying what NASA proposes (in terms of requirements) isn't good enough for commercial spaceflight?


No, but some of the questions by politicians certainly seem to imply that they doubt the requirements are good enough.

Yeah, so what does that say about NASA?

It's like throwing them under the bus (in a slight manner speaking)
How so? That makes no sense. NASA should, of course, do their due diligence. This advisory panel is no substitute for that. But SpaceX is no doubt trying to court other customers for their crew services, as well. If SpaceX is really being serious here, then it's a good sign that they're not just trying to do the very bare minimum that NASA says for safety. That's good for NASA and good for the industry.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

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