DIRECT v3.0 - Thread 1

[engstudent]

Woe that would be nice, I used to watch MTP every week during the political season. 

[Lobo]

"If you believe that I have a bridge I want to sell you,"?!

WHAT?!

Its one thing not to be familiar with the concept but quite another to insult the person offering an alternative before you understand what hes saying.  I know these guys have been to the moon and are real american heroes.  But they are just men, and they were mistaken, and less than inspirational IMHO.

How can they compare a concept being vetted by the Aerospace Corporation at the orders of the Augustine Commission to by as ridiculous as buying a bridge to nowhere?!  I was disappointed by these comments and probably didn't get as much as I could from the rest of the segment because of it.

Ross handled this much better than I would've.  I think I would've said something regrettable.  You did great Ross.

They are American heroes.  They probably just didn't know much about Direct.  If you didn't have the background info, and some guy gets on the line saying he's got an idea that can do the same thing for a fraction of the cost from the agency that you worked for and loved, you might think they were a little "generous" in their estimations.   I listened to it, and they didn't sound like they knew much about Direct.

You have to remember, for every decision NASA's made there's a 100 "napkin engineers" who have an idea they say would do it better and cheaper.  Most of the time it's BS.  So I'm not surprised by their somewhat dismissive views.  They've heard a ton of ideas over the years that weren't viable.
They are -real- American Heroes and I'll give them the benefit of the doubt any day of the week.
Buzz Aldren has done some research on Direct and has mentioned it as a viable alternative.  So opinion and familiarity varies among Apollo Astronauts.

I thought Ross did a good job of respectfully disagreeing with them.  To space nuts these guys are almost like living dieties.
Plus, NASA was a different place when they were there.  And people understood the risks of space travel better, and understood that it can never be a zero risk occupation.  I think it was Jim Lovell who said something to the effect of, "What we did back then was very bold.  But that was a time when people did bold things".

Funding is part of the reason we've been mired in LEO for so long, but lack of desire to take some risks is another (more due to politicians and the media not putting into context to the American people the inherent risks of space exploration.  And how astronauts gladly except those risks) reason.

[gladiator1332]

Woe that would be nice, I used to watch MTP every week during the political season. 

Again, I was just offering it up as a suggestion...who knows if that would ever happen.

But since the next front after the Augustine Commission is congress, it may be a good place to start.

[brihath]

Oceanfront???  I'll bring my suit and flip-flops! :-)

Definitely.   And don't forget your Factor 50 too -- The mid-Summer Florida sunshine will burn you badly in less than an hour if you don't.

Ross.

Ross- I can relate.  I live in Tampa.  I can tell you a story about my first trip to Florida in my college years for an AFROTC convention, getting cooked on the beach and then having to wear my Mess Dress to a banquet of 2000.  Boy did THAT hurt!  I learned my lesson way back then.

[luke strawwalker]

So Ross, will you ever offer Jupiter-130/246 models?  I might have to pick up one, although I can wait as you are understandably busy (I would love to see lego make a Jupiter model, dont ask why...)

Make it a model rocket and I'll buy two.    Altho technically you might be able to kitbash one using a shuttle kit.

Dr. Zooch is supposed to be coming out with a Jupiter model rocket... (user "zerm" here on the board)  Maybe PM him for more information...

Later!  OL JR

I've been fiddling with plans for a parallel staged J-130 for a while now, but I'm having some difficulty finding out enough information on how to separate the RSRMs from the core, and still have the core, RSRMs, and Orion recover separately. I'm also thinking about doing the J-246 as a paralell two stager, with the same recovery options.

It's not nearly as easy to design a flying model as it is to make a static one out of paper.

If any of you guys who are working on the flying model need any help with textures or skins, shoot me a PM and I'd be happy to work with you.

I should have the plans for the J-130 and J-246 in 1/144 scale out by the end of next week, I hope.

And if any of you guys build them, please share your photos and build experiences. I'm always looking at ways to improve the instructions sheets.

 

Check these out:

 http://www.rocketryforum.com/
http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/index.php?
http://www.rocketryplanet.com/forums/

You can search the forum for the specific information you're looking for.  There was a good post not long ago on this specific question of SRB seperation ideas for high power rockets.  There is an interesting "tube within a tube" design with capped ends that have a small charge of black powder installed in them that are electrically fired by a flight computer or timer at SRB burnout.  The small BP charges seperate the boosters.  The SRB's could use standard high-power motors with BP ejection charges or be more sophisticated with electronic deployment of the chutes.  I'd expect any upper stage would make use of a flight computer or timer to ignite the upperstage engines, be they either black powder motors or composite propellant.  The 1/70 scale would make an AWESOME rocket and be large enough to house the necessary electronics and large rocket motors. 

A smaller model with dropping SRB's deploying their own chutes and a staged core would be cool but probably more difficult, but DEFINITELY less expensive! 

There's an interesting Delta IV Heavy that drops its boosters after burnout, a fairly big model, and I'm not sure what method he used for the seperation-- I'm sure you can find it by searching the forum. 

Good luck!  OL JR

[HIP2BSQRE]

Direct is mentioned here:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032118/ns/technology_and_science

Not a bad article....but could be better.

[ndb81]

I have not heard any discussion of directing contact to the White House or Congress directly (around/over the Chain of Command, always my MO). I would recommend that to all.

First, welcome to the forum!   You'll find a LOT of engineers and experienced people on this site and I just get a feeling you are going to find yourself quite at home here!

Could I ask you to clarify what sort of 'contact' you are specifically talking about there?

Ross.

Specifically a call-in, email snail mail campaign to the WH and our senators, In my case Bill Nelson, and believe it or not even ol Mel Martinez may be a supporter. Let them know you're an engineer and what your concerns are, encourage them to ask the questions.

If we cant get buy-in on a more economical alt than Ares, the program could wither. The safety compromises are a critical risk.

Do the right thing, even if it risks offending the management chain.
I've survived it plenty of times.

[ndb81]

BTW I watched the presentation, read through the PPTs -- outstanding job team. There's plenty of great detail there.

Bravo Zulu

[JAFO]

Nice job Ross.

What really impressed me was that you had numbers ready off the top of your head about Jupiter launch mass vs cost vs Ares. There's a fine line between drowning in numbers to make your point vs using numbers to make it, and I feel you were able to do it very well.

I have a great deal of respect for Senator Schmitt, but you left him looking like a grumpy old man when he complained about how the numbers were going to change. Bravo Zulu!!!

[SoFDMC]

Direct is mentioned here:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032118/ns/technology_and_science

Not a bad article....but could be better.

"Maverick engineers" indeed. Great way to look real ignorant.

[MP99]

Ross,

great job on the NPR show - got the points across really well.

As a specific rebuttal to "NASA always knows best", could have mentioned that Ares I turned out much harder than they thought, so those decision processes don't always work as well as he thinks. But that would have taken time, and probably diverted the whole conversation in the wrong direction. It was critical to get across the specific advantages of Jupiter, and that came across very slick & persuasive.

cheers, Martin

[MP99]

Direct is mentioned here:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032118/ns/technology_and_science

Not a bad article....but could be better.

"Maverick engineers" indeed. Great way to look real ignorant.

From wiktionary:-

Showing independence in thoughts or actions.

Sounds OK to me, although I agree there are overtones to "maverick" that that definition doesn't capture well.

cheers , Martin

[Crispy]

We have no reason to believe that there is any reason what-so-ever to believe otherwise.

I believe I also have no reason to believe that you have no reason to believe otherwise

[MP99]

With that in mind you could add 25mT (maybe more?) of "debris retaining" structures to each SRB and still comfortably make orbit with margins intact.

I can answer that... no.

To terminate thrust the steel case must be unzipped. When that happens any addons that attempt to "contain" the debris will fail under the pressure of the still-burning fuel.

It seems to me the biggest problem is not that the SRB fails, but that debris is spread over such a wide area that once the LAS has burnt out the capsule must descend through the debris field.

Is there any chance that a structure could slow down the ejecta and reduce the spread of debris?

cheers, Martin

[Jorge]

With that in mind you could add 25mT (maybe more?) of "debris retaining" structures to each SRB and still comfortably make orbit with margins intact.

I can answer that... no.

To terminate thrust the steel case must be unzipped. When that happens any addons that attempt to "contain" the debris will fail under the pressure of the still-burning fuel.

It seems to me the biggest problem is not that the SRB fails, but that debris is spread over such a wide area that once the LAS has burnt out the capsule must descend through the debris field.

Is there any chance that a structure could slow down the ejecta and reduce the spread of debris?

Not within a reasonable mass budget, no.

[zapkitty]

It seems to me the biggest problem is not that the SRB fails, but that debris is spread over such a wide area that once the LAS has burnt out the capsule must descend through the debris field.

The problem is simpler than that: as the Ares I approaches Max-Q the dynamic pressure becomes so high that should the LAS need to be activated...


... FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER....

(sorry 'bout the caps, but a lot of people seem to be missing that point)

... then the the SRB's must be terminated to stop their thrust...

... and the LAS, hobbled by Ares I extreme Max-Q, can't outrun the resultant propellant debris field.

The capsule stays within the debris field all the way down.

Is there any chance that a structure could slow down the ejecta and reduce the spread of debris?

As Jorge said, no. Should the remaining debris field prove to still be a problem for the alternative vehicles, which it probably won't,  then the solution would be a more robust LAS.

A more robust LAS that, unlike Ares I, they have the margins to handle.

The power of the current LAS is constricted by the need to fit it on Ares I. When that limitation is removed and the LAS beefed up then any remaining debris problem can be left behind... literally

[kraisee]

Oceanfront???  I'll bring my suit and flip-flops! :-)

Definitely.   And don't forget your Factor 50 too -- The mid-Summer Florida sunshine will burn you badly in less than an hour if you don't.

Ross.

Ross- I can relate.  I live in Tampa.  I can tell you a story about my first trip to Florida in my college years for an AFROTC convention, getting cooked on the beach and then having to wear my Mess Dress to a banquet of 2000.  Boy did THAT hurt!  I learned my lesson way back then.

I recall a really stupid mistake I made on one of my first trips here. I spent the whole day at Palm Beach, from Sun-up to Sun-down.   I put Factor 30 on in the morning and didn't bother putting anything else on.

I went to the emergency room that night with 1st degree burns all over.

It wasn't fun.   I really don't recommend the experience to anyone.

Ross.

[kraisee]

Just FYI:   We are getting an analysis done into where the Orion ends up in relation to the debris field in the even of a worst-case SRB explosion.   It's going to take some time to complete though.

In the interim, I've tried running a very simple comparison and my own figures -- which HAVE NOT BEEN VALIDATED YET -- indicate that if an SRB detonated at Max-Q (T+50 sec) on a Jupiter-130 flight would result in the LAS getting the Orion CM away ahead of the debris field and out to a distance of some ~8,900 meters (~29,000ft) before the LAS/BPC is actually jettisoned from the CM.   This would be well outside of the debris field.

The crew gets exposed to roughly 16G during this abort.

Its still only a *very* rudimentary result, but I think it is a very encouraging preliminary result.

*IF* it can be validated, it would mean that this issue is not a concern for Jupiter.

I'll keep you all informed of the more detailed results as I receive them.

Ross.

[William Barton]

Would it be worthwhile to consider the 6x SSME + ET SSTO concept (from Gary Hudson, I think) as a possible downstream Jupiter applications program? If the base Jupiter core is 4x SSME + ET (add RSRMs, subtract 1x SSME to get 130, add upper stage to get 246 or 241), then providing some way for the Jupiter core to stand on its own (without hanging off the RSRMs) and adding 2x SSMEs on the axis of the removed RSRMs gives you that SSTO. (Jupiter 060, maybe?)

[MATTBLAK]

Just FYI:   We are getting an analysis done into where the Orion ends up in relation to the debris field in the even of a worst-case SRB explosion.   It's going to take some time to complete though.

In the interim, I've tried running a very simple comparison and my own figures -- which HAVE NOT BEEN VALIDATED YET -- indicate that if an SRB detonated at Max-Q (T+50 sec) on a Jupiter-130 flight would result in the LAS getting the Orion CM away ahead of the debris field and out to a distance of some ~8,900 meters (~29,000ft) before the LAS/BPC is actually jettisoned from the CM.   This would be well outside of the debris field.

The crew gets exposed to roughly 16G during this abort.

Its still only a *very* rudimentary result, but I think it is a very encouraging preliminary result.

*IF* it can be validated, it would mean that this issue is not a concern for Jupiter.

I'll keep you all informed of the more detailed results as I receive them.

Ross.

One of my JSC friends told me a couple years back he believed the LAS wouldn't be able to take the crew to safety unless it was designed to inflict an 18-to-20-G load on the crew. When I relayed that opinion, from a Phd Engineer, to Dr Doug Stanley on an earlier Forum here (not sure where, here) -- Dr Stanley scoffed at this and implied I was playing the "I know a guy at NASA who says..." card.

Well, my friend was right. Just as he was about Thrust Oscillation. More than two years ago.

Go figure...