DIRECT v3.0 - Thread 1

[ugordan]

Buzz is a pretty vocal space advocate, however.  He has taken an active role in sustaining a vision for HSF.  I'm not sure comparing him to Ed Mitchell is valid.

I know it's not valid. That was to show two different ends of the "Apollo astronaut" spectrum. My point was that even his statements don't necessarily carry much weight with the powers that be, just because he's an Apollo astronaut. Though it certainly can't hurt DIRECT, either.

[TrueBlueWitt]

Well that was intersting.. Some "Direct" Hater.. Gaetano Marano was spewing all kinds of anti-direct FUD on the HSF Facebook page.. 

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/pages/Washington-DC/Human-Space-Flight-Plans-Committee/103371548720?ref=nf


Made an attempt to put him in his place and cut through the FUD.  Althogh Ross's "4 years ago" statement was one he rabidly picked on.  I think he has an agenda/rocket of his own he's pushing.

[brihath]

Buzz is a pretty vocal space advocate, however.  He has taken an active role in sustaining a vision for HSF.  I'm not sure comparing him to Ed Mitchell is valid.

I know it's not valid. That was to show two different ends of the "Apollo astronaut" spectrum. My point was that even his statements don't necessarily carry much weight with the powers that be, just because he's an Apollo astronaut. Though it certainly can't hurt DIRECT, either.

What information tells you he doesn't have much influence with the powers that be?

[agman25]

No. That guy is just plain crazy. Gaetano Marano I mean, not Buzz.

[Stephan]

Well that was intersting.. Some "Direct" Hater.. Gaetano Marano was spewing all kinds of anti-direct FUD on the HSF Facebook page..

This guy is a parrot, repeating this good ol' "Direct guys stole my idea".
I think it's more interesting to speak with a brick wall.

[gladiator1332]

Well that was intersting.. Some "Direct" Hater.. Gaetano Marano was spewing all kinds of anti-direct FUD on the HSF Facebook page..

This guy is a parrot, repeating this good ol' "Direct guys stole my idea".
I think it's more interesting to speak with a brick wall.

He is on several space blogs and puts the same theories out. I wouldn't be surprised if he claims he invented the internet as well.

I wrote back on that facebook group as well and explained that a Direct-like vehicle was suggested way back in 1978, a good 26 years before he made his "discovery".

[cixelsyD]

Is there a set date for when the Augustine Commission must release their report?

[Mark S]

Well that was intersting.. Some "Direct" Hater.. Gaetano Marano was spewing all kinds of anti-direct FUD on the HSF Facebook page..

This guy is a parrot, repeating this good ol' "Direct guys stole my idea".
I think it's more interesting to speak with a brick wall.

Yeah, he spams every space forum that he's not banned from, and the comment section of every mass-media space article that gets published online.  I can recognize his style before I ever see his name or the URLs he spews everywhere.

I have him on auto-ignore.  Let's drop any further mention of him, it just strokes his ego.

Mark S.

[Mark S]

Is there a set date for when the Augustine Commission must release their report?

No later than August 30th.  Be nice if it was sooner, but don't count on it.

[ugordan]

My point was that even his statements don't necessarily carry much weight with the powers that be, just because he's an Apollo astronaut.

What information tells you he doesn't have much influence with the powers that be?

Read again what I said - "don't necessarily carry much weight". Politicians being politicians, it's not about HSF with them, it's about pork. Hence all these (to us) logical ideas on advancing HSF most effectively don't carry much weight. The fact they're coming from someone who actually walked on the moon don't matter much either. But all of this is just IMO and certainly off topic.

[gladiator1332]

Well that was intersting.. Some "Direct" Hater.. Gaetano Marano was spewing all kinds of anti-direct FUD on the HSF Facebook page..

This guy is a parrot, repeating this good ol' "Direct guys stole my idea".
I think it's more interesting to speak with a brick wall.

Yeah, he spams every space forum that he's not banned from, and the comment section of every mass-media space article that gets published online.  I can recognize his style before I ever see his name or the URLs he spews everywhere.

I have him on auto-ignore.  Let's drop any further mention of him, it just strokes his ego.

Mark S.

Good point. Deleted my comment on that page too, don't want to add more fuel to the fire.

[wannamoonbase]

Well that was intersting.. Some "Direct" Hater.. Gaetano Marano was spewing all kinds of anti-direct FUD on the HSF Facebook page..

This guy is a parrot, repeating this good ol' "Direct guys stole my idea".
I think it's more interesting to speak with a brick wall.

I guess the difference is the DIRECT guys did something with it.  Ideas aren't worth anything unless you do something with them.  Found support, got people together, sold their idea, presented to peer groups, endured the gauntlet of ridicule and judgment.

I am impressed with the dogged determination that the DIRECT guys have displayed in moving their proposal forward.  They aren't a company trying to sell something.  Just enthusiasts with an idea.  Which is one reason why the panel could ask: "Who are you guys?"

It's true that the Jupiter vehicle was originally pitched by MSFC and others over the last 30+ years.  But DIRECT kept the flame alive and grew support in a time when the powers that be weren't looking for solutions.

For that well done.

I like DIRECT but I will support whatever the Augustine commission suggests.  Direct has the massive advantage of using existing and proven hardware and manufacturing technology.

[Lobo]

PS:  I -hope- CxP is legitimately considering Direct!  My fingers are crossed. 

CxP? Remember to untangle and flex your fingers occasionally to prevent severe cramps over that long duration...

The Augustine commission is where any hope for sanity lies.

That's why I am "crossing my fingers" and not "holding my breath"  heheheh


But fair enough, good catch.  Let's just say I really hope the powers that be are legitimately considering Direct, or the President comes completely out of Left field and advocates doubling NASA's budget to get Ares done.  Either would be good, but I'm not holding my breath (or crossing my fingers) for the latter.

[Mark S]

My point was that even his statements don't necessarily carry much weight with the powers that be, just because he's an Apollo astronaut.

What information tells you he doesn't have much influence with the powers that be?

Read again what I said - "don't necessarily carry much weight". Politicians being politicians, it's not about HSF with them, it's about pork. Hence all these (to us) logical ideas on advancing HSF most effectively don't carry much weight. The fact they're coming from someone who actually walked on the moon don't matter much either. But all of this is just IMO and certainly off topic.

Buzz has stayed in the limelight and has not gone off the deep end.  He is well respected in the space industry, from what I have seen.  Not everyone agrees with him, but you can't accuse him of being at any extreme end of the spectrum on any issue.

Point taken about politicians and pork. At least DIRECT is getting some recognition by the people who actually know something about space.

Mark S.

[Lobo]

Ten years from now, after MOON LANDING II, hollywood will want to make a movie about you guys. Based on the bestselling book "Rocket Rebels",  or something thereabouts. And, as one who will miss the triumphal re-entry of the space shuttle, soaring down out of the heavens, soon to be replaced by an ignominious thud in the desert, has the Direct team ever considered an inline mini shuttle, something like the Russian Clipper?

But like the "moon landings", the whole Direct movement is staged in a Hollywood backlot.  The Rebell Alliance doesn't really exist.  Just another conspiracy...

[Drapper23]

Chuck, If The Aerospace Corporation has validated Direct's cost data, have they validated Direct's safety, performance, & schedule data as well?

[Lancer525]

straight out of the mouth of an Apollo astronaut

Not to belittle Buzz's points at all, but being an Apollo astronaut by itself doesn't necessarily mean you're qualified to judge something. Remember Ed Mitchell and his UFO mumbo-jumbo? 

Or more recently, Alan Bean and Harrison Schmitt...

[cixelsyD]

Who validated AresI/V costs? If it was just Aerospace again, I wouldn't be so confident in the numbers for Direct.

Saying that "we use the same cost analysis" as NASA will maybe get NASA on your side, but is the equivilant of saying "just like NASA our cost estimates are completely unrealistic".

I know you've give Direct plenty of margins, but from a PR standpoint, claiming to use the same cost analysis methodology as NASA isn't excatly a good thing.

[Lancer525]

Who validated AresI/V costs? If it was just Aerospace again, I wouldn't be so confident in the numbers for Direct.

Saying that "we use the same cost analysis" as NASA will maybe get NASA on your side, but is the equivilant of saying "just like NASA our cost estimates are completely unrealistic".

I know you've give Direct plenty of margins, but from a PR standpoint, claiming to use the same cost analysis methodology as NASA isn't excatly a good thing.

Wow, you're a ray of sunshine! 

How do you know that Aerospace used the exact same methodology?

Wouldn't it be better to actually read what Chuck wrote and note that their analysis didn't track "line by line" but that Aerospace still validated the figures?

That means to me that they used whatever their own formula might be for figuring these things out, and still came up with figures close enough that there's no reason for you or anyone else to try to FUD the team's figures like that. IMHO.

[brihath]

Who validated AresI/V costs? If it was just Aerospace again, I wouldn't be so confident in the numbers for Direct.

Saying that "we use the same cost analysis" as NASA will maybe get NASA on your side, but is the equivilant of saying "just like NASA our cost estimates are completely unrealistic".

I know you've give Direct plenty of margins, but from a PR standpoint, claiming to use the same cost analysis methodology as NASA isn't excatly a good thing.

You are missing a key point here.  What DIRECT has been asking for all along is an independent analysis by a respected body.  The Aerospace Corporation is such a body, so DIRECT is getting what they wanted all along.