Quote from: mmeijeri on 10/30/2016 03:11 pmQuote from: Robotbeat on 10/30/2016 02:55 pm(i.e. Where it's hard to land anyway, like Mount Olympus). GCRs may be a consideration, but SPEs are not.Citation needed. Propulsive landing isn't especially difficult at higher altitudes. It's easier to get research grants for fancy aerodynamic deceleration however.It takes MUCH more propellant to land on Mount Olympus. I'm still talking about ITS-style EDL. If you want to land on the top of Mt. OLympus, you basically have to do the entire landing propulsively, like landing while moving at Mach 8, versus Mach 3 for supersonic retropropulsion. That's a huge difference and means far less landed mass for a given propellant.
Quote from: Robotbeat on 10/30/2016 02:55 pm(i.e. Where it's hard to land anyway, like Mount Olympus). GCRs may be a consideration, but SPEs are not.Citation needed. Propulsive landing isn't especially difficult at higher altitudes. It's easier to get research grants for fancy aerodynamic deceleration however.
(i.e. Where it's hard to land anyway, like Mount Olympus). GCRs may be a consideration, but SPEs are not.
Quote from: LMT on 10/29/2016 03:59 pmStorm vs. FlareQuote from: Robotbeat on 10/29/2016 02:32 pmLook at the diagram I posted. That should answer your question. We're concerned here narrowly with solar storms and with reducing their level until they pose no acute risk. It doesn't have to block the entire spectrum, just the overall level. And even just 30g/cm^2 of aluminum can do that. Mars's atmosphere does even better.A solar storm proton is not the same beast as a solar flare proton. Up to 1000x the energy. That's why the martian atmosphere doesn't protect from the flare, or from GCRs for that matter. And I don't know who the "we" is, but what studies if any have actually recommended a mere 30g/cm2 of aluminum shielding (11 cm) for a long-duration Mars hab? wstewart, would (or could) colonists have advanced warning that a solar flare was coming? If so, does that suggest that their 'normal' habs would not have to protect against them, but that they'd need some type of underground 'storm shelter' to scurry to in the (rare) event of a direct hit by a solar flare?(Though that still leaves the ongoing, though lower dosage threat of GCRs, yes?)
Storm vs. FlareQuote from: Robotbeat on 10/29/2016 02:32 pmLook at the diagram I posted. That should answer your question. We're concerned here narrowly with solar storms and with reducing their level until they pose no acute risk. It doesn't have to block the entire spectrum, just the overall level. And even just 30g/cm^2 of aluminum can do that. Mars's atmosphere does even better.A solar storm proton is not the same beast as a solar flare proton. Up to 1000x the energy. That's why the martian atmosphere doesn't protect from the flare, or from GCRs for that matter. And I don't know who the "we" is, but what studies if any have actually recommended a mere 30g/cm2 of aluminum shielding (11 cm) for a long-duration Mars hab?
Look at the diagram I posted. That should answer your question. We're concerned here narrowly with solar storms and with reducing their level until they pose no acute risk. It doesn't have to block the entire spectrum, just the overall level. And even just 30g/cm^2 of aluminum can do that. Mars's atmosphere does even better.
Quote from: GORDAP on 10/30/2016 11:56 amQuote from: wstewart on 10/29/2016 03:59 pmStorm vs. FlareQuote from: Robotbeat on 10/29/2016 02:32 pmLook at the diagram I posted. That should answer your question. We're concerned here narrowly with solar storms and with reducing their level until they pose no acute risk. It doesn't have to block the entire spectrum, just the overall level. And even just 30g/cm^2 of aluminum can do that. Mars's atmosphere does even better.A solar storm proton is not the same beast as a solar flare proton. Up to 1000x the energy. That's why the martian atmosphere doesn't protect from the flare, or from GCRs for that matter. And I don't know who the "we" is, but what studies if any have actually recommended a mere 30g/cm2 of aluminum shielding (11 cm) for a long-duration Mars hab? wstewart, would (or could) colonists have advanced warning that a solar flare was coming? If so, does that suggest that their 'normal' habs would not have to protect against them, but that they'd need some type of underground 'storm shelter' to scurry to in the (rare) event of a direct hit by a solar flare?(Though that still leaves the ongoing, though lower dosage threat of GCRs, yes?)Well sure. Or the hab designers could do a real job. What's your preference?
Quote from: wstewart on 10/29/2016 03:59 pmStorm vs. FlareQuote from: Robotbeat on 10/29/2016 02:32 pmLook at the diagram I posted. That should answer your question. We're concerned here narrowly with solar storms and with reducing their level until they pose no acute risk. It doesn't have to block the entire spectrum, just the overall level. And even just 30g/cm^2 of aluminum can do that. Mars's atmosphere does even better.A solar storm proton is not the same beast as a solar flare proton. Up to 1000x the energy. That's why the martian atmosphere doesn't protect from the flare, or from GCRs for that matter. And I don't know who the "we" is, but what studies if any have actually recommended a mere 30g/cm2 of aluminum shielding (11 cm) for a long-duration Mars hab? wstewart, would (or could) colonists have advanced warning that a solar flare was coming? If so, does that suggest that their 'normal' habs would not have to protect against them, but that they'd need some type of underground 'storm shelter' to scurry to in the (rare) event of a direct hit by a solar flare?(Though that still leaves the ongoing, though lower dosage threat of GCRs, yes?)
Storm vs. FlareQuote from: Robotbeat on 10/29/2016 02:32 pmLook at the diagram I posted. That should answer your question. We're concerned here narrowly with solar storms and with reducing their level until they pose no acute risk. It doesn't have to block the entire spectrum, just the overall level. And even just 30g/cm^2 of aluminum can do that. Mars's atmosphere does even better.A solar storm proton is not the same beast as a solar flare proton. Up to 1000x the energy. That's why the martian atmosphere doesn't protect from the flare
And I don't know who the "we" is, but what studies if any have actually recommended a mere 30g/cm2 of aluminum shielding (11 cm) for a long-duration Mars hab?
Quote from: LMT on 10/30/2016 11:24 pmQuote from: GORDAP on 10/30/2016 11:56 amwstewart, would (or could) colonists have advanced warning that a solar flare was coming? If so, does that suggest that their 'normal' habs would not have to protect against them, but that they'd need some type of underground 'storm shelter' to scurry to in the (rare) event of a direct hit by a solar flare?(Though that still leaves the ongoing, though lower dosage threat of GCRs, yes?)Well sure. Or the hab designers could do a real job. What's your preference? That would depend upon the frequency and duration of the solar flares (of which I am completely ignorant). If on Mars surface they are completely random, once a month-ish events, with only 15 minutes of warning, and they last for several hours, I'd want all habitats to be 'flare-proof' for their inhabitants. If on the other hand, they are once a decade event, with hours of notice, and last only 30 minutes, I don't think it would make sense to drastically increase the cost and complexity of the habitats (and decrease their aesthetics and 'livability', such as burying everyone under meters of opaque regolith). In this case I think an adequate 'storm shelter' would make the most sense.Which of these two extremes best characterizes the flares?(And again, I acknowledge this completely ignores the GCR issue.)
Quote from: GORDAP on 10/30/2016 11:56 amwstewart, would (or could) colonists have advanced warning that a solar flare was coming? If so, does that suggest that their 'normal' habs would not have to protect against them, but that they'd need some type of underground 'storm shelter' to scurry to in the (rare) event of a direct hit by a solar flare?(Though that still leaves the ongoing, though lower dosage threat of GCRs, yes?)Well sure. Or the hab designers could do a real job. What's your preference?
wstewart, would (or could) colonists have advanced warning that a solar flare was coming? If so, does that suggest that their 'normal' habs would not have to protect against them, but that they'd need some type of underground 'storm shelter' to scurry to in the (rare) event of a direct hit by a solar flare?(Though that still leaves the ongoing, though lower dosage threat of GCRs, yes?)
Gorgeous rendering - and possibly quite realistic.How ballistics resistant/anchored/thermally/vibro resistant would the dome have to be without being prohibitive, to situate the domes closer to the landing zone? There isn't a distance problem as-is; you're going to need good rover capacity anyway.The domes would be much easier to construct if they were manufactured with local glass. Perhaps with additives brought from earth.
How about a tunnel from the main dome to the landing/launch pads? You could keep the domes several kilometers away.
Might be best to just put the landing pads "around the corner" from the domes. The domes would be shielded from direct impact from landing / launch debris by an intervening hill, yet still within a reasonable distance. No real reason for the domes to face directly at the launch site. Just drive the rovers from the domes, around the corner of the hill, and out to the launch site.
Even well-engineered concrete may pretty quickly degrade after a few landings. Even LZ-1 showed a little damage from the first landing. I probably wouldn't want to risk a chunk of pad material being flung through my dome.But yeah, it would look really cool.
If the landing is as precise as on Earth, might just put in a thick mild steel plate at the center of the pad?Guess it would be logical to just put the landing field further away. There's no romance in safety. Sigh.
Quote from: lamontagne on 10/31/2016 02:31 pmIf the landing is as precise as on Earth, might just put in a thick mild steel plate at the center of the pad?Guess it would be logical to just put the landing field further away. There's no romance in safety. Sigh.Hide the domes from the landing field. Only a utility entrance needs to face the pads.