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SpaceX Vehicles and Missions => SpaceX Missions Section => Topic started by: Chris Bergin on 06/14/2010 12:13 am

Title: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Chris Bergin on 06/14/2010 12:13 am
DISCUSSION thread for Formosat-5 mission.

NSF Threads for Formosat-5 : Discussion (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=21984.0) / Updates (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43396.0) / L2 Coverage July-August (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43238.0) / ASDS (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?board=66.0) / Party (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=42585.0)
NSF Articles for Formosat-5:
   SpaceX to static fire Formosat-5 Falcon 9, aims for another ASDS landing (https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/08/spacex-static-fire-formosat-5-falcon-9-asds-landing/)
   Falcon 9 successfully launches Taiwan’s Formosat-5 (https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/08/falcon-9-vandenberg-launch-formosat-5/)

Successful launch on August 24 at 1151 PDT/1851 UTC on Falcon 9 (core 1038) from SLC-4E at Vandenberg.  Successful ASDS landing.
FCC Permit mission number: 1344

Other SpaceX resources on NASASpaceflight:
   SpaceX News Articles (Recent) (http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/tag/spacex/)  /   SpaceX News Articles from 2006 (Including numerous exclusive Elon interviews) (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=21862.0)
   SpaceX Dragon Articles (http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/tag/dragon/)  /  SpaceX Missions Section (with Launch Manifest and info on past and future missions) (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?board=55.0)
   L2 SpaceX Section (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?board=60.0)




SPACEX AND THE NATIONAL SPACE ORGANIZATION (NSPO) SIGN CONTRACT TO LAUNCH EARTH OBSERVATION SATELLITE

Hawthorne, CA – June 14 2010 – Space Exploration Technologies (SpaceX) and the National Space Organization (NSPO) have signed contract for the launch of NSPO’s Earth Observation Satellite, Formosat-5.  Formosat-5 will be used to continue the image data service for civilian users and may also carry instruments to conduct space research and scientific experiments.

NSPO, the civilian space agency of the Republic of China (Taiwan), is involved in the development of space exploration, satellite construction and development as well as related research, technologies and infrastructure, including the FORMOSAT series of Earth observation satellites.   With Formosat-5, NSPO aims to build up capabilities for independent development of spacecraft and payload instruments.

“The launch of Formosat-5 will build on the successful launch and operation of the FORMOSAT satellites, “ said Dr. H.P. Chang, Formosat-5 Program Manager of NSPO.  “SpaceX’s approach to launch services is very well-aligned with our goals and objectives for the program—we are very pleased to partner with them on this launch.”


"With over 40 flights now on manifest, SpaceX is positioned to deliver launch services across the increasingly varied needs of our commercial and government customers,” said Gwynne Shotwell, President of SpaceX.  “We are pleased to be the launch services provider of choice for the FORMOSAT-5 mission and look forward to supporting NSPO on this launch."

Formosat-5 is slated to launch as early as December 2013 from SpaceX’s launch site on Omelek Island at the U.S. Army Kwajalein Atoll (USAKA) in the Central Pacific, about 2,500 miles southwest of Hawaii.

 

About SpaceX

SpaceX is developing a family of launch vehicles and spacecraft intended to increase the reliability and reduce the cost of both manned and unmanned space transportation, ultimately by a factor of ten. With the Falcon 1 and Falcon 9 vehicles, SpaceX offers highly reliable/cost-efficient launch capabilities for spacecraft insertion into any orbital altitude and inclination. Starting in 2010, SpaceX’s Dragon spacecraft will provide Earth-to-LEO transport of pressurized and unpressurized cargo, including resupply to the International Space Station.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: wjbarnett on 06/14/2010 12:28 am
Doesn't state if Falcon 1 or 9
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: SpacexULA on 06/14/2010 12:31 am
Chris did you have a source for the Falcon 1 bit or did you just assume it from the Kwajalein launch location?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Chris-A on 06/14/2010 01:05 am
Did a quick Google and found this, (see pdf page 8/9) http://www.nspo.org.tw/2008c/download/othernews/NSPO-RFP-0508_0000.pdf
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: SpacexULA on 06/14/2010 01:16 am
1.4. FORMOSAT-5 Satellite Characteristics
The FORMOSAT-5 satellite is expected to have the following characteristics:
􀁺 Mission Orbit: 720 km circular, sun synchronous
􀁺 Parking Orbit: 720 km circular, 98.28 degree inclination
􀁺 Satellite Lift-off (Wet) Weight: no more than 525 kg
􀁺 Mission Life: 5 years minimum

Sounds like Falcon 1e, good call Chris
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Chris Bergin on 06/14/2010 03:16 am
Chris did you have a source for the Falcon 1 bit or did you just assume it from the Kwajalein launch location?

It was an assumption :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: zaitcev on 06/14/2010 05:13 am
"Formosat-5 is slated to launch as early as December 2013 . . ." - oh boy, so much for the responsive space. I'm kinda sad it always takes so long.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: tigerade on 06/14/2010 05:23 am
40 flights now on the Manifest, huh?  It shows 26 upcoming flights on the website and 6 past missions.  What are the other eight missions?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: neilh on 06/14/2010 06:14 am
40 flights now on the Manifest, huh?  It shows 26 upcoming flights on the website and 6 past missions.  What are the other eight missions?

I wonder if there's a number of new Falcon 9 contracts that they're waiting to finalize so that they can announce them all at once for publicity reasons.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: simonth on 06/14/2010 06:43 am
40 flights now on the Manifest, huh?  It shows 26 upcoming flights on the website and 6 past missions.  What are the other eight missions?

I wonder if there's a number of new Falcon 9 contracts that they're waiting to finalize so that they can announce them all at once for publicity reasons.

I believe they count every single CRS flight double, one time for ISS resupply and then as a reflown Dragonlab mission, although they only bothered to put two Dragonlab missions on the manifest.

That means
 - 12 CRS flights F9
 - 12 Dragonlab flights F9
 - 3 COTS Demo missions F9
 - 5 Orbcomm flights F1e
 - 6 Various (MDA, CONAE, Loral, Spacecom, Bigelow) F9
 - 1 Astrium F1e
----------------
 - 39 flights
 + either they count the F1e test flight or this new one for Taiwan
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ugordan on 06/14/2010 08:36 am
I believe they count every single CRS flight double, one time for ISS resupply and then as a reflown Dragonlab mission

Huh? Why? They stated they have a number of new contracts waiting to be announced, some customers apparently wanted to wait after F9 launched.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: kevin-rf on 06/14/2010 01:15 pm
That's not the way boeing does it : http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/index.cfm
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: HMXHMX on 06/14/2010 04:53 pm
40 flights now on the Manifest, huh?  It shows 26 upcoming flights on the website and 6 past missions.  What are the other eight missions?

They may be counting Iridium NEXT missions even if not formally announced.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: simonth on 06/14/2010 05:06 pm
I believe they count every single CRS flight double, one time for ISS resupply and then as a reflown Dragonlab mission

Huh? Why? They stated they have a number of new contracts waiting to be announced, some customers apparently wanted to wait after F9 launched.

10 more flights? Mhmm, somehow I doubt it.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: butters on 06/14/2010 05:29 pm
"Formosat-5 is slated to launch as early as December 2013 . . ." - oh boy, so much for the responsive space. I'm kinda sad it always takes so long.

Maybe that's when the payload will be ready?...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mr. mark on 06/15/2010 03:04 pm
Looks like it's Falcon 1e...article from spacenews.com  http://www.spacenews.com/contracts/taiwan-orders-spacex-falcon-launch-for-formosat-5.html
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: SpacexULA on 06/15/2010 05:05 pm
"Formosat-5 is slated to launch as early as December 2013 . . ." - oh boy, so much for the responsive space. I'm kinda sad it always takes so long.

Maybe that's when the payload will be ready?...

Likely somewhere between that and the Orbcomm missions will be coming 1st.  Remember we still don't know how may Orbcomm satillites will be on each flight.  Could be anywhere between 1 & 3 each.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: simonth on 06/15/2010 05:07 pm
Quote from: zaitcev link=topic=21984.msg605982#msg605982
date=1276492433
"Formosat-5 is slated to launch as early as December 2013 . . ." - oh boy, so much for the responsive space. I'm kinda sad it always takes so long.

Maybe that's when the payload will be ready?...

Likely somewhere between that and the Orbcomm missions will be coming 1st.  Remember we still don't know how may Orbcomm satillites will be on each flight.  Could be anywhere between 1 & 3 each.

We know from SEC filings that the contract between SpaceX and Orbcomm speaks of 5 flights.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: SpacexULA on 06/15/2010 05:16 pm
Quote from: zaitcev link=topic=21984.msg605982#msg605982
date=1276492433
"Formosat-5 is slated to launch as early as December 2013 . . ." - oh boy, so much for the responsive space. I'm kinda sad it always takes so long.

Maybe that's when the payload will be ready?...

Likely somewhere between that and the Orbcomm missions will be coming 1st.  Remember we still don't know how may Orbcomm satillites will be on each flight.  Could be anywhere between 1 & 3 each.

We know from SEC filings that the contract between SpaceX and Orbcomm speaks of 5 flights.

Thanks for the Info.  So That leaves 1 maiden and 5 Orbcomm & 1 Astrium.  So if the Maiden Flight goes off in February 2011  and this one is for Dec 2013, that's 32 months between the maiden flight and the Formosat flight.  Or an average of 4 months between flights if these are all the flights between now and then.


Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: simonth on 06/15/2010 05:31 pm
Quote from: zaitcev link=topic=21984.msg605982#msg605982
date=1276492433
"Formosat-5 is slated to launch as early as December 2013 . . ." - oh boy, so much for the responsive space. I'm kinda sad it always takes so long.

Maybe that's when the payload will be ready?...

Likely somewhere between that and the Orbcomm missions will be coming 1st.  Remember we still don't know how may Orbcomm satillites will be on each flight.  Could be anywhere between 1 & 3 each.

We know from SEC filings that the contract between SpaceX and Orbcomm speaks of 5 flights.

Thanks for the Info.  So That leaves 1 maiden and 5 Orbcomm & 1 Astrium.  So if the Maiden Flight goes off in February 2011  and this one is for Dec 2013, that's 32 months between the maiden flight and the Formosat flight.  Or an average of 4 months between flights if these are all the flights between now and then.


The 5 OrbComm flights were scheduled in launch periods from 2010 to 2014 http://www.faqs.org/sec-filings/100305/ORBCOMM-Inc_10-Q.A/c97356exv10w1.htm . Of course the first launch period depends on a successful maiden launch of Faclon 1e. Anyway, we can safely assume that not all of the 5 flights would be before 2013 but more like 1 Orbcomm flight every 12 months.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: SpacexULA on 06/15/2010 05:44 pm
Anyway, we can safely assume that not all of the 5 flights would be before 2013 but more like 1 Orbcomm flight every 12 months.

Why would you assume such a low flight rate?  The Falcon 1 for Flight 5 was in Kwajalein 3 months after Flight 4 in August 2007, but was delayed due to integration issues.  Hopefully they have grown past that and can get down to a 3/4 month gap between vehicles.

Between that and it would be nice for them to be able to test the block 2 Merlin several times on Falcon 1 before rolling the dice on a COTS flight.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: kevin-rf on 06/15/2010 05:52 pm
SpaceX is not the only factor that sets the flight rate. How fast can the Orbcomm birds be manufactured?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ugordan on 06/15/2010 05:54 pm
Between that and it would be nice for them to be able to test the block 2 Merlin several times on Falcon 1 before rolling the dice on a COTS flight.

It wouldn't be any more dicey than the flight 11 days ago.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: SpacexULA on 06/15/2010 06:02 pm
Between that and it would be nice for them to be able to test the block 2 Merlin several times on Falcon 1 before rolling the dice on a COTS flight.
It wouldn't be any more dicey than the flight 11 days ago.

:) Absolutely agreed.  But a good chunk of the reason Falcon 9 went so well was the 3 suboptimal Falcon 1 flights.  Best 20-30 Million any aerospace firm has ever put at the bottom of the ocean.

My only point is better to let a Falcon 1 carry the test risk than a Falcon 9, especially considering the payloads Falcon 9 will be carrying for the next few years.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: simonth on 06/15/2010 06:08 pm
Anyway, we can safely assume that not all of the 5 flights would be before 2013 but more like 1 Orbcomm flight every 12 months.

Why would you assume such a low flight rate?
Because that correlates with the contract. First launch period in 2010, the fifth launch period in 2014. The most realistic distribution between is one flight in 2011, 2012 and 2013 each.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ugordan on 06/15/2010 06:09 pm
My only point is better to let a Falcon 1 carry the test risk than a Falcon 9, especially considering the payloads Falcon 9 will be carrying for the next few years.

I still don't see the reason why anything other than a CRS flight should take the risk of flying the first Block 2.

1) There's nine engines there so there's engine out
2) CRS flights won't max out a F9 anyway
3) "toilet paper, t-shirts and tang" aren't high priority payloads

Better to test a F9 Block 2 on a CRS flight and still very likely get the mission done than risk a say GTO payload that's more likely to max out F9 performance margin.

They'll accumulate a couple of thousand seconds of firing time on an engine upgrade before committing it to flight, so the risk wouldn't really be that high, anyway. There are still remaining risks with the basic F9 vehicle that won't be completely settled until at least they have several flights under their belt.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: SpacexULA on 06/15/2010 06:15 pm
They'll accumulate a couple of thousand seconds of firing time on an engine upgrade before committing it to flight, so the risk wouldn't really be that high, anyway. There are still remaining risks with the basic F9 vehicle that won't be completely settled until at least they have several flights under their belt.

Thanks for the explanation.  I see your point.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Robotbeat on 06/15/2010 07:00 pm
My only point is better to let a Falcon 1 carry the test risk than a Falcon 9, especially considering the payloads Falcon 9 will be carrying for the next few years.

I still don't see the reason why anything other than a CRS flight should take the risk of flying the first Block 2.
...
What exactly IS a block-2 Falcon 9 versus block 1? Does anyone even know?

I think it's going to be flown rather soon. I bet you SpaceX is already manufacturing their first block 2 Falcon 9.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: docmordrid on 06/15/2010 08:16 pm
Increased performance mainly due to engine improvements. IIRC the total first stage thrust of the block 1 was ~800,000 lb/ft while the block 2 is 1,110,000 lb/ft

http://www.spacelaunchreport.com/falcon9.html#config (http://www.spacelaunchreport.com/falcon9.html#config)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Robotbeat on 06/15/2010 08:26 pm
Increased performance mainly due to engine improvements. IIRC the total first stage thrust of the block 1 was ~800,000 lb/ft while the block 2 is 1,110,000 lb/ft

http://www.spacelaunchreport.com/falcon9.html#config (http://www.spacelaunchreport.com/falcon9.html#config)
Right, but it seems to me that even that website doesn't have terribly good sources for its information. It doesn't seem to me that SpaceX is even selling launch services for its block 1 Falcon 9.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: docmordrid on 06/15/2010 08:29 pm
Dunno about that....

Quote
Falcon 9 Block 2 (Merlin 1C+)
2010 and Later

Might as well ride your best horse.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: zaitcev on 06/15/2010 08:59 pm
Why would you assume such a low flight rate?  The Falcon 1 for Flight 5 was in Kwajalein 3 months after Flight 4 in August 2007, but was delayed due to integration issues.  Hopefully they have grown past that and can get down to a 3/4 month gap between vehicles.
The question is how people and the equipment were assigned between the F-1 and F-9 lines. Without any insider information I cannot be sure, but Elon probably relocates workers from task to task, even if F1 is given a degree of autonomy within the company. F1 program will be starved if the management attention is concentrated on high-profile flights of Dragon to ISS.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: daver on 06/16/2010 12:37 am
http://www.kcoy.com/global/story.asp?s=12655134

"Neither company would say how many Falcon 9 launches would be required to put the satellites into low-Earth orbit from Vandenberg Air Force Base."



Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 01/28/2015 03:31 pm
Well, we can struck this one off the 2015 launch manifest: according to a Taiwan newspaper (http://www.chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/national/national-news/2015/01/28/427613/National-Space.htm) it isn't going to launch till Q1 of 2016.

Then again, this is the 1st EO satellite ever to be assembled in Taiwan, so it really needs more time...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: dorkmo on 01/29/2015 04:42 pm
Well, we can struck this one off the 2015 launch manifest: according to a Taiwan newspaper (http://www.chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/national/national-news/2015/01/28/427613/National-Space.htm) it isn't going to launch till Q1 of 2016.

Then again, this is the 1st EO satellite ever to be assembled in Taiwan, so it really needs more time...

"The satellite is expected to find the connection between ion concentration in the ionosphere and earthquakes."

sounds like theyre testing the consipracy theories for the HAARP project lulz

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Frequency_Active_Auroral_Research_Program#Conspiracy_theories
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: docmordrid on 01/29/2015 06:27 pm
Well, we can struck this one off the 2015 launch manifest: according to a Taiwan newspaper (http://www.chinapost.com.tw/taiwan/national/national-news/2015/01/28/427613/National-Space.htm) it isn't going to launch till Q1 of 2016.

Then again, this is the 1st EO satellite ever to be assembled in Taiwan, so it really needs more time...

"The satellite is expected to find the connection between ion concentration in the ionosphere and earthquakes."

sounds like theyre testing the consipracy theories for the HAARP project lulz

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Frequency_Active_Auroral_Research_Program#Conspiracy_theories

Sounds more like they're testing the theory that as the earthquake risk rises piezoelectric effects in the tectonic plates cause atmospheric ionization. If so it could aid earthquake predictions.
 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mtakala24 on 05/15/2015 10:53 am
The first Finnish satellite project, Aalto-1 3U cubesat, is being quoted in several Finnish media as launching December 2015 on SpaceX rocket carrying a remote sensing satellite and possibly a record amount of other cubesats. Could it be this launch?

edit: It cannot be one of the SAOCOM sats, as the launch is quoted as being performed from Cape Canaveral, and both SAOCOMs on SpaceX:s manifest are from Vandenberg. The launch also might be the STP-2 launch, but that has been pushed back to 2016 for a long time now.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Jarnis on 05/15/2015 02:27 pm
I'm fairly sure Aalto-1 will be on the STP-2 because the duration is quoted to be two years. You don't get two year mission out of a Cubesat dropped to low LEO. Lightsail 1 is also on STP-2 specifically because it offers unusually high orbit for a Cubesat ride.

Edit: or if not STP-2, then some other ride that would offer a high enough orbit for a 3U cubesat to stay up for two years...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: deruch on 05/15/2015 03:39 pm
The first Finnish satellite project, Aalto-1 3U cubesat, is being quoted in several Finnish media as launching December 2015 on SpaceX rocket carrying a remote sensing satellite and possibly a record amount of other cubesats. Could it be this launch?

edit: It cannot be one of the SAOCOM sats, as the launch is quoted as being performed from Cape Canaveral, and both SAOCOMs on SpaceX:s manifest are from Vandenberg. The launch also might be the STP-2 launch, but that has been pushed back to 2016 for a long time now.

1.4. FORMOSAT-5 Satellite Characteristics
The FORMOSAT-5 satellite is expected to have the following characteristics:
􀁺 Mission Orbit: 720 km circular, sun synchronous
􀁺 Parking Orbit: 720 km circular, 98.28 degree inclination
􀁺 Satellite Lift-off (Wet) Weight: no more than 525 kg
􀁺 Mission Life: 5 years minimum

Sounds like Falcon 1e, good call Chris
Formosat-5 is going to sun-synchronous orbit.  With initial parking orbit inclined at 98.28 degrees, Vandenberg is only possibility (unless they want to launch from Kwaj.  ;D)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Skyrocket on 05/15/2015 04:49 pm
The first Finnish satellite project, Aalto-1 3U cubesat, is being quoted in several Finnish media as launching December 2015 on SpaceX rocket carrying a remote sensing satellite and possibly a record amount of other cubesats. Could it be this launch?

edit: It cannot be one of the SAOCOM sats, as the launch is quoted as being performed from Cape Canaveral, and both SAOCOMs on SpaceX:s manifest are from Vandenberg. The launch also might be the STP-2 launch, but that has been pushed back to 2016 for a long time now.

1.4. FORMOSAT-5 Satellite Characteristics
The FORMOSAT-5 satellite is expected to have the following characteristics:
􀁺 Mission Orbit: 720 km circular, sun synchronous
􀁺 Parking Orbit: 720 km circular, 98.28 degree inclination
􀁺 Satellite Lift-off (Wet) Weight: no more than 525 kg
􀁺 Mission Life: 5 years minimum

Sounds like Falcon 1e, good call Chris
Formosat-5 is going to sun-synchronous orbit.  With initial parking orbit inclined at 98.28 degrees, Vandenberg is only possibility (unless they want to launch from Kwaj.  ;D)

Formosat-5 will launch from Vandenberg, currently planned for December 2015.

Among the Cubesats on this mission are Arkyd-6, a TBD number of NASA sponsored cubesats (​ELaNa-XIII) and the South Korean  CNUSail 1, KAUSAT 5, SIGMA, CANYVAL-X 1, CANYVAL-X 2, STEP Cube Lab cubesats.

Possibly on board are 20 cubesats from Spire Global (not yet confirmed).

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mtakala24 on 05/15/2015 06:46 pm
98 degrees would be good for coverage of Finland, but OK, it seems it will be STP-2. I'm buzzled why they are in many interviews saying that the launch is this December, though.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mtakala24 on 01/10/2016 07:51 pm
Consolidated launch schedule now shows:
2016- April - FORMOSAT 5, SHERPA SSO: Arkyd-6, CNUSail 1, KAUSAT 5, SIGMA, CANYVAL-X 1, CANYVAL-X 2,
                       STEP Cube Lab, EcAMSat, ISARA, CubeSats - Falcon 9 FT - Vandenberg SLC-4E, USA

Sherpa SSO is the big cubesat dispenser which will have 80+ satellites onboard, including those mentioned and also Aalto-1, the first Finnish satellite.

Unless the Sherpa is bumped or confirmed not to be on this launch, then I think I was right.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: BrianNH on 01/10/2016 09:03 pm
From the first post that started this thread in 2010...

Formosat-5 is slated to launch as early as December 2013 from SpaceX’s launch site on Omelek Island at the U.S. Army Kwajalein Atoll (USAKA) in the Central Pacific, about 2,500 miles southwest of Hawaii.

And from the 7th post...

"Formosat-5 is slated to launch as early as December 2013 . . ." - oh boy, so much for the responsive space. I'm kinda sad it always takes so long.

There is a lot of history in this launch.  Looks like it was originally a Falcon 1 flight, so should have plenty of margin for using the landing pad if they can get permission.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Robotbeat on 01/11/2016 02:38 am
You sure? They originally thought they might be launching F9s from Omelek.

Then again, F9FT has like twice the performance as the original F9 did, so it should still be capable of RTLS.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Jarnis on 01/11/2016 06:32 am
80+ satellites onboard, including those mentioned and also Aalto-1, the first Finnish satellite.


About damn time too :) - granted, there has been plenty of space instruments built in Finland before, but this is the first satellite.

Still waiting for that first astronaut. Tim Kopra being the almost-Finnish proxy for now (his grandparents moved from Finland to US in 1914). I know at least one Finnish guy has reserved a Virgin Galactic flight, but who knows when that will actually fly in commercial service...
 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: BrianNH on 01/11/2016 12:23 pm
The first few posts of this this thread discussed whether or not it would be Falcon 1.  I don't know that it was ever determined with certainty.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: the_other_Doug on 01/15/2016 11:40 pm
The first few posts of this this thread discussed whether or not it would be Falcon 1.  I don't know that it was ever determined with certainty.

Maybe it was gonna be a Falcon 5?  Back in 2010, wasn't the 5 still being considered for such payloads?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Skyrocket on 01/15/2016 11:52 pm
It was originally definitively a Falcon-1e, as can be seen in this presentation from December 2010 (page 13): http://www.csrsr.ncu.edu.tw/08CSRWeb/ChinVer/C7Info/2010RSDMM/PPTpdf/1.pdf

BTW: No Falcon-5 was ever ordered
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: HMXHMX on 01/16/2016 12:54 am
It was originally definitively a Falcon-1e, as can be seen in this presentation from December 2010 (page 13): http://www.csrsr.ncu.edu.tw/08CSRWeb/ChinVer/C7Info/2010RSDMM/PPTpdf/1.pdf

BTW: No Falcon-5 was ever ordered

At t/Space we seriously considered ordering two for a demo flight of our four-place "XV" spacecraft as a follow-on to the NASA CE&R contracts.  We discussed it with SpaceX but Griffin became NASA Administrator and the promise of a CE&R follow-on disappeared, to be replaced by COTS. 

The SpaceX $12M offer price was very attractive at the time, though today presumably the price per flight would be perhaps 3-4x greater ($18M for Falcon 9 in 2005, by comparison).
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mtakala24 on 02/27/2016 04:38 pm
I've heard Aalto-1 hasn't left Finland yet - there is supposedly "last pictures" media event some time in the near future. I think the integration time all the way from here to California would be some kind of record to be able to go in April, but not impossible?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: rockets4life97 on 02/28/2016 12:49 am
With CRS-8 and Eutelsat/ABS currently manifested for April, there is a very low probability this is launching in April.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ZachS09 on 02/28/2016 03:29 am
Actually, SpX-8 is scheduled for March 30th at 00:38:13 Zulu. So, for the time being, Eutelsat/ABS is the only mission we know is scheduled for April.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: kevin-rf on 02/28/2016 11:59 am
For a west coast launch, should the east coast schedule have much of an impact on it? In April I don't see why they can not fit both in (or all three if one slips).

For iridium they already need to be ramping up west coast launches. This needs to happen regardless of what is happening on the east coast.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mheney on 02/28/2016 04:54 pm
For a west coast launch, should the east coast schedule have much of an impact on it? In April I don't see why they can not fit both in (or all three if one slips).

For iridium they already need to be ramping up west coast launches. This needs to happen regardless of what is happening on the east coast.

Basically, it's a matter of staffing.  If SpaceX had two complete launch operations teams, they could in theory do simultaneous launches from VAFB and CCAFB.   (Be an interesting day in Hawthorne, ;-) 

But that would be wasteful - they're not at that kind of launch cadence (yet).  I'd expect that they have a core operations team at each launch site, with additional launch operations folk coming in for each launch.  That would be one driver for how tightly they can space launches between the two facilities.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Arb on 02/28/2016 10:27 pm
Someone said (in another thread or on Redit) that there are now three teams. The senior team is focused on FH but has trained two others, one of which is working the SES-9 launch as I type. That leaves the third free for Vandenberg.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mtakala24 on 03/02/2016 05:03 pm
Finland’s first satellite will be launched into space later in spring 2016.
http://elec.aalto.fi/en/current/news/2016-03-02/

"Spring 2016". I think May is more likely than April now.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Newton_V on 03/02/2016 07:33 pm
Finland’s first satellite will be launched into space later in spring 2016.
http://elec.aalto.fi/en/current/news/2016-03-02/

"Spring 2016". I think May is more likely than April now.

Isn't WR shut down through August?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mtakala24 on 03/02/2016 07:39 pm
Isn't WR shut down through August?

If yes, I didn't know about that.

Actually, Aalto-1 Facebook updates are now saying "in May-June timeframe".
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: OnWithTheShow on 03/02/2016 09:14 pm
Quote
All of those launches will take place in bunches, because the base is slated to close down launch operations for six months this year while the launch systems are relocated into a new facility on base.

Doesnt say when specifically in this article. 

http://lompocrecord.com/news/local/vafb-commander-goes-over-plans-including-base-s-first-rocket/article_9b8ab9a3-42b1-5ce3-9b3d-f177ec5261ce.html

edit: corrected link
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: WHAP on 03/02/2016 09:53 pm
Range closure appears to be mid-March through mid-August.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: oldAtlas_Eguy on 03/03/2016 02:24 pm
Range closure appears to be mid-March through mid-August.
Its is not so much a closure as a no launch duration that the range has scheduled a major asset movement. Iridium/SpaceX seems to already gotten a NET July launch date from the WR. IF SpaceX does not need that asset for its launches then the range activity would only be interrupted for the actual launch day activities. But if the asset is required then already the time to move the asset has decreased by 1 month. A mid April FFORMOSAT launch decreases the 6 month available duration to only 4 months. Same if the launch is moved out to late June.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: bstrong on 03/04/2016 06:56 pm
I'm perplexed. Any chance they could launch from the Cape? This thread seems to indicate it's possible, and it's a tiny payload:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=14778.0
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mtakala24 on 03/04/2016 07:04 pm
I'm perplexed. Any chance they could launch from the Cape? This thread seems to indicate it's possible, and it's a tiny payload:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=14778.0

Nope. Polar orbit.

Edit: sorry, didn't read the linked thread first as I'm on my phone.

But,

Originally it was supposed to be only Formosat 5 and maybe some cubesats, but now there is the huge 80+ Cubesat dispenser called Sherpa SSO which is on this same flight. Sherpa with its numerous customers isn't light.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: bstrong on 03/04/2016 07:23 pm
I'm perplexed. Any chance they could launch from the Cape? This thread seems to indicate it's possible, and it's a tiny payload:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=14778.0

Nope. Polar orbit.

Edit: sorry, didn't read the linked thread first as I'm on my phone.

But,

Originally it was supposed to be only Formosat 5 and maybe some cubesats, but now there is the huge 80+ Cubesat dispenser called Sherpa SSO which is on this same flight. Sherpa with its numerous customers isn't light.

This paper (http://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3171&context=smallsat) states that Sherpa is capable of deploying up to 1500kg of satellites:

I'm not sure what to estimate for the mass of Sherpa plus other secondaries and adapters, but assuming 3000kg, you've still got less than 5000kg total. I have no idea what the penalty for the dogleg is, but it seems like you've still got a lot of performance margin to work with on this mission.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Salo on 03/08/2016 09:00 pm
http://www.skyandtelescope.com/astronomy-news/the-rise-of-cubesat-astronomy-08032016/
Quote
The mission will launch on a SpaceX Falcon-9 rocket from Vandenberg Air Force Base, California, along with several other CubeSat payloads and Taiwan's FORMOSAT-5 satellite. The launch is scheduled for May 2016.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: GraniteHound92 on 04/14/2016 12:53 am
Will they be attempting RTLS on this launch?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ZachS09 on 04/14/2016 02:12 am
Will they be attempting RTLS on this launch?

Maybe. SpaceX was thinking either this mission, SpX-9, or SpX-10. That's from what I know.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ZachS09 on 04/15/2016 06:50 pm
Remind me if this question was answered:

Does SHERPA stand for anything, or is the "S" only capitalized?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: docmordrid on 04/15/2016 09:08 pm
Remind me if this question was answered:

Does SHERPA stand for anything, or is the "S" only capitalized?

According to Spaceflights Curt Blake SHERPA (in caps) is not an acronyn but it is intended to honor the Himalayan guides.

http://www.seattleastronomy.com/blog1/2014/05/first-sherpa-launch-from-spaceflight-inc-set-for-next-year/
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: starhawk92 on 04/29/2016 07:46 pm
So, JCSAT has slipped, and there are currently two other SLC-40 launches (assumed) before the Formosat launch from VAFB.

Do slides on the Right Coast affect the schedule on the Left Coast?  Is there any reason we do not have a target date for this launch as yet, like the payload is not at the launch site for processing?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: OnWithTheShow on 04/30/2016 12:43 am
So, JCSAT has slipped, and there are currently two other SLC-40 launches (assumed) before the Formosat launch from VAFB.

Do slides on the Right Coast affect the schedule on the Left Coast?  Is there any reason we do not have a target date for this launch as yet, like the payload is not at the launch site for processing?

Because they arent quite sure when the range will reopen?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: deruch on 04/30/2016 06:43 am
Will they be attempting RTLS on this launch?
Yes.  Inferring from recent SpaceX filings related to approval for RTLS at VAFB (the environmental assessment and marine mammal harassment application), all currently planned launches from VAFB will RTLS with a contingency to land on the barge ~30 miles off shore based on a Range decision about returning booster overflight of sensitive assets on the southern section of the base.  i.e. They'll all RTLS unless there's a Delta IV on the pad at SLC-6, in which case they'll RTLB(?) (Return To Landing Barge).
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: deruch on 04/30/2016 06:47 am
So, JCSAT has slipped, and there are currently two other SLC-40 launches (assumed) before the Formosat launch from VAFB.

Do slides on the Right Coast affect the schedule on the Left Coast?  Is there any reason we do not have a target date for this launch as yet, like the payload is not at the launch site for processing?

According to the CEO of Irridium, Matt Desch, they don't.  https://twitter.com/pbdes/status/725666667414564864 
Quote
Peter B. de Selding
‏@pbdes

IRDM's Desch: We launch frm Vandenberg w/ SpaceX. 6 SpaceX launches scheduled before us but doesnt mean delays among them = delay for us.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: wannamoonbase on 05/10/2016 02:28 pm
Do we know if the payloads are ready and/or at VAFB?

Edit: Clarify, are Formosat and SHERPA at VAFB. 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: BrianNH on 05/10/2016 03:55 pm
That tweet was posted at the end of April.  If there were 6 SpaceX launches before this one (including JCSAT-14), then I don't see how this launch could have been scheduled for earlier than late July/August. 

JCSAT-14 was May
Thaicom 8 is May
Eutelsat 117 West B is presumably June
CRS-9 is June
Iridium is supposed to be July (at Vandenberg)
AMOS-6 is July

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 05/10/2016 04:34 pm
That tweet was posted at the end of April.  If there were 6 SpaceX launches before this one (including JCSAT-14), then I don't see how this launch could have been scheduled for earlier than late July/August. 

JCSAT-14 was May
Thaicom 8 is May
Eutelsat 117 West B is presumably June
CRS-9 is June
Iridium is supposed to be July (at Vandenberg)
AMOS-6 is July

The tweet was for the Iridium flight, not this one.  It will be interesting to see if the pad and range at Vandenberg are actually able to launch anything before the Iridium mission, wouldn't be shocked if this one slipped to August.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: WHAP on 05/10/2016 04:55 pm
That tweet was posted at the end of April.  If there were 6 SpaceX launches before this one (including JCSAT-14), then I don't see how this launch could have been scheduled for earlier than late July/August. 

JCSAT-14 was May
Thaicom 8 is May
Eutelsat 117 West B is presumably June
CRS-9 is June
Iridium is supposed to be July (at Vandenberg)
AMOS-6 is July

The tweet was for the Iridium flight, not this one.  It will be interesting to see if the pad and range at Vandenberg are actually able to launch anything before the Iridium mission, wouldn't be shocked if this one slipped to August.

No one should be shocked, since it's been discussed before that the Western Range is closed until mid-August.  I don't have any official sources, but last time I checked the (second or third-hand) information available to me, it looked like that had not changed (maybe even moved about a week later). 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Rik ISS-fan on 05/11/2016 06:16 pm
I found this blogpost/ website where updates are placed on the progress of some of the cubesats that will launch along with Formosat-5. http://blog.isilaunch.com/ (http://blog.isilaunch.com/)
ISIlaunch is a sister company of ISIS space, the provider of the Quadpack dispensers.
SHERPA is a rideshare adapter for five ESPA Grande payloads (24" 300kg |660lbs). On this flight a non propulsive SHERPA will be used, Spaceflight industries also offers SHERPA's with a propulsion module.
Spaceflight has developed three adapter plates:
- a linear adapter plate for ESPA payloads (8" or 15" 180kg)
- a dual ESPA adapter (2× 8" or 15" both 120kg)
- a plate where 7  Quadpack's (12U cubesat dispensers) can mounted onto.
this flight will use three quadpack plates (3x 84U) and one dual ESPA adapter.
I'm looking forward to this record setting launch. Although the record might not stand for long. On the QB-50 website it is stated that six QB-50 cubesates will be launched on a Dnepr, that has a wooping 190 cubesat cubesat payload manifest.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 05/11/2016 09:34 pm
That tweet was posted at the end of April.  If there were 6 SpaceX launches before this one (including JCSAT-14), then I don't see how this launch could have been scheduled for earlier than late July/August. 

JCSAT-14 was May
Thaicom 8 is May
Eutelsat 117 West B is presumably June
CRS-9 is June
Iridium is supposed to be July (at Vandenberg)
AMOS-6 is July

The tweet was for the Iridium flight, not this one.  It will be interesting to see if the pad and range at Vandenberg are actually able to launch anything before the Iridium mission, wouldn't be shocked if this one slipped to August.

Doesn't SpaceX have to complete modifications to the TEL and launchpad infrastructure at Vandenberg to support Falcon 9 v1.2 anyhow?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Rik ISS-fan on 05/12/2016 02:16 pm
Doesn't SpaceX have to complete modifications to the TEL and launchpad infrastructure at Vandenberg to support Falcon 9 v1.2 anyhow?

I agree SpaceX has to modify the SLC-4E facilities. But if it holds back the launch from VDB they really have planned badly. The last launch from SLC-4E was F9-21 with Jason-3 17 January 2016. They already have had four months to do the modifications. And they already build infrastructure there before the Jason3 launch. I don't expect it to be a problem.
The range system maintenance on the other hand, could hold the launches from Vandenberg. 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: baldusi on 05/12/2016 03:57 pm
Doesn't SpaceX have to complete modifications to the TEL and launchpad infrastructure at Vandenberg to support Falcon 9 v1.2 anyhow?

I agree SpaceX has to modify the SLC-4E facilities. But if it holds back the launch from VDB they really have planned badly. The last launch from SLC-4E was F9-21 with Jason-3 17 January 2016. They already have had four months to do the modifications. And they already build infrastructure there before the Jason3 launch. I don't expect it to be a problem.
The range system maintenance on the other hand, could hold the launches from Vandenberg.
In fact, they tested and validated the subcooling process in VAFB. They should be more than ready. And it will be devoted to the Iridium contract, too. So they better keep up because this is their biggest commercial contract.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: kevin-rf on 05/12/2016 04:26 pm
In fact, they tested and validated the subcooling process in VAFB. They should be more than ready. And it will be devoted to the Iridium contract, too. So they better keep up because this is their biggest commercial contract.
I realize that sub cooled propellants was tested at VAFB because it was available, but to they need it for Iridium? I thought Iridium and Formosat-5 was well within the Falcon 9's capabilities.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: John Alan on 05/12/2016 04:47 pm
In fact, they tested and validated the subcooling process in VAFB. They should be more than ready. And it will be devoted to the Iridium contract, too. So they better keep up because this is their biggest commercial contract.
I realize that sub cooled propellants was tested at VAFB because it was available, but to they need it for Iridium? I thought Iridium and Formosat-5 was well within the Falcon 9's capabilities.
There is some opinion (like myself) that Subcooled prop is required for running Merlin D at the planned higher thrust uprates...
In particular the chilled RP-1 helps with chamber wall cooling...
No source to back this... take it for what you think it's worth...  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Robotbeat on 05/12/2016 04:53 pm
In fact, they tested and validated the subcooling process in VAFB. They should be more than ready. And it will be devoted to the Iridium contract, too. So they better keep up because this is their biggest commercial contract.
I realize that sub cooled propellants was tested at VAFB because it was available, but to they need it for Iridium? I thought Iridium and Formosat-5 was well within the Falcon 9's capabilities.
There is some opinion (like myself) that Subcooled prop is required for running Merlin D at the planned higher thrust uprates...
In particular the chilled RP-1 helps with chamber wall cooling...
No source to back this... take it for what you think it's worth...  ;)
Huh? There's definitely source for this (SpaceX has said the propellant density increase allows higher thrust). Also, basic physics:

Higher propellant density means that the same turbopump can pump more mass of propellant to the same pressure for a given energy.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: tleski on 05/12/2016 05:20 pm
As far as I understand, and it was discussed extensively before, the current version of Falcon 9 requires subcooled propellants. So, there is no option of loading the warmer LOX on launches requiring lower performance. BTW, the performance is needed to bring the first stage back in most cases.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: deruch on 05/12/2016 08:05 pm
Falcon 9 has had the location of the common bulkhead between RP-1/LOX moved to adjust for changing propellant loads achievable with densification.  Switching back to non-densified propellants would require bespoke production of stages, something that runs counter to their philosophy.  Also, the lengthened upper stage and consequently higher GLOW was partially predicated on running at higher thrust.  So, would they have to go back to the shorter U/S?  Go back to the shorter MVac nozzle?  And, in addition to changing the actual hardware build, they'd have to go back to previous iteration of ground operations during launch.  Basically, it'd be a revert to the old F9v1.1.  Better to just make all launches the same (i.e. using densified prop.) whether the mission needs the performance upgrades or not.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: the_other_Doug on 05/12/2016 09:18 pm
In other words, there is no F9 v1.1 (or even v1.2/FT), there is just the current iteration of the F9.  It uses sub-cooled propellants.  There is no version now available of an F9 that doesn't use sub-cooled propellants.  This is simply a feature of the F9 from here on out.  It is not something you can choose to do or not, it's how the launcher now works.  No decisions to be made on a flight-by-flight basis in re sub-cooling the propellants; it will always happen.

I get the feeling that SpaceX is finally pretty happy with the performance characteristics of the F9, that the F9 is finally mature to the point where further iterations will only encompass minor improvements.  It rather follows that this is what they were waiting for before they went ahead and put together the Falcon Heavy.  It wouldn't have made sense to do so before the F9 itself was matured up to the point where further improvements would be minor.

I get the feeling that SpaceX's insistence that, from here on out, the base stage is simply the F9 and there shall be no version differentiators, means they feel the current design, as implemented, is the mature vehicle.  Good to see, actually -- it makes you feel comfortable that we now know what the performance envelope will be for the F9 and FH, going forward.

IMHO, anyway...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: a_langwich on 05/12/2016 09:29 pm

I get the feeling that SpaceX's insistence that, from here on out, the base stage is simply the F9 and there shall be no version differentiators, means they feel the current design, as implemented, is the mature vehicle.  Good to see, actually -- it makes you feel comfortable that we now know what the performance envelope will be for the F9 and FH, going forward.

IMHO, anyway...

From here on out, referring to that future time when they have implemented the 10% thrust increase Musk mentioned?   :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: AncientU on 05/13/2016 12:38 am

I get the feeling that SpaceX's insistence that, from here on out, the base stage is simply the F9 and there shall be no version differentiators, means they feel the current design, as implemented, is the mature vehicle.  Good to see, actually -- it makes you feel comfortable that we now know what the performance envelope will be for the F9 and FH, going forward.

IMHO, anyway...

From here on out, referring to that future time when they have implemented the 10% thrust increase Musk mentioned?   :)

While they may eek out incremental improvements (e.g., thrust, operations software), I believe the frozen part of the design is the interface with ground systems.  They have a unique challenge -- reusing a portion of the launch vehicles on a set of pads which will be used for new vehicles, too.  They have to stop changing interfacing configuration or they'll never get reuse going.  An example is the perfectly fine 3-engine booster that they were going to use for follow-on testing for grasshopper... never needed because the launch-while-you-test regime (or is it the test-while-you-launch regime?) solved the problem before SA was ready.  That booster probably will never be used because it no longer interfaces with the GSE.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 05/13/2016 02:36 am
In other news I have recently checked Taiwan's NSPO website - I didn't see any news about Formosat-5 since November last year so I presume that the satellite has not been shipped out yet. ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mtakala24 on 05/13/2016 09:03 am
At least the Cubesat campaigns are progressing well, they are currently integrating the payloads into cubesat dispensers in the Netherlands. The dispensers (quadpacks) are then going to be installed on to the Sherpa.

Here's a few tweets regarding Aalto-1.

Aalto-1 is successfully integrated into the Quadpack -  next contact happens in orbit!
https://twitter.com/AaltoOne/status/730783649541525505

Another shot of @AaltoOne from yesterday in Delft. 7th #cubesat integration for me, first for a Finnish satellite.
https://twitter.com/jarimakinen/status/731044574936846336



https://directory.eoportal.org/web/eoportal/satellite-missions/a/aalto-1
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: jhan6301 on 05/13/2016 11:55 am
In other news I have recently checked Taiwan's NSPO website - I didn't see any news about Formosat-5 since November last year so I presume that the satellite has not been shipped out yet. ;)

In according to the Minister of Science and Technology of Taiwan, the satellite will be shipped to the States on May 17th.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mtakala24 on 05/15/2016 08:21 pm
In numerous news articles (in Finnish) about Aalto-1's payload integration activities this week, there is talk about launch in July. One of them even mentions the range closure.

Don't know if the sources have current accurate information, though...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: linxiaoyi on 05/16/2016 11:03 am
In other news I have recently checked Taiwan's NSPO website - I didn't see any news about Formosat-5 since November last year so I presume that the satellite has not been shipped out yet. ;)

In according to the Minister of Science and Technology of Taiwan, the satellite will be shipped to the States on May 17th.

Look likes a July launch is assured!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: oldAtlas_Eguy on 05/16/2016 04:57 pm
If F9 actual does sport a GPS autonomous FTS like as mentioned a year ago that SpaceX was planning to introduce on F9 this year, then even though many of the tracking assets at VAFB are down the AF has stated that with a GPS autonomous FTS they could still launch.

So does the F9 really have a certified GPS AFTS?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ugordan on 05/16/2016 04:58 pm
So does the F9 really have a certified GPS AFTS?

Not yet.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: baldusi on 05/16/2016 09:26 pm
AFAIK, they tried but haven't been able to flight certify it.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: CameronD on 05/16/2016 11:23 pm
AFAIK, they tried but haven't been able to flight certify it.

Because it keeps blowing up?!?   ;D

(Sorry.. bad joke!)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: kevin-rf on 05/17/2016 01:37 am
AFAIK, they tried but haven't been able to flight certify it.

Because it keeps blowing up?!?   ;D

(Sorry.. bad joke!)
I would go with, because it hadn't blown up... A loose HE bottle does not count.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: linxiaoyi on 05/25/2016 04:18 am
According to this news, SpaceX had told NSPO this mission must be delayed, due to range closure. And we know Formosat-5 was undergone a successful test in Taiwan on May 20.
Now I reckon Formosat-5 will be launched NET August, Iridium NEXT will be FIRST possibly.

http://www.chinatimes.com/realtimenews/20160523005380-260410 (http://www.chinatimes.com/realtimenews/20160523005380-260410)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 05/25/2016 08:30 am
According to this news, SpaceX had told NSPO this mission must be delayed, due to range closure. And we know Formosat-5 was undergone a successful test in Taiwan on May 20.
Now I reckon Formosat-5 will be launched NET August, Iridium NEXT will be FIRST possibly.

http://www.chinatimes.com/realtimenews/20160523005380-260410 (http://www.chinatimes.com/realtimenews/20160523005380-260410)

The same article on Formosat-5 revealed that a loose bolt fell off from a payload's circuit board during satellite vibration tests on April 19 - which has been fixed and shown to be OK after additional tests on May 6 and 19/20.

It looks like that the main passenger won't be ready even had the Western Range been ready in June/July.....  ::)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: wannamoonbase on 05/25/2016 01:00 pm
According to this news, SpaceX had told NSPO this mission must be delayed, due to range closure. And we know Formosat-5 was undergone a successful test in Taiwan on May 20.
Now I reckon Formosat-5 will be launched NET August, Iridium NEXT will be FIRST possibly.

http://www.chinatimes.com/realtimenews/20160523005380-260410 (http://www.chinatimes.com/realtimenews/20160523005380-260410)

The same article on Formosat-5 revealed that a loose bolt fell off from a payload's circuit board during satellite vibration tests on April 19 - which has been fixed and shown to be OK after additional tests on May 6 and 19/20.

It looks like that the main passenger won't be ready even had the Western Range been ready in June/July.....  ::)

A screw here a screw there......

I find it interesting that with as little as VAFB gets used that there is now a competition to see which payload gets launched first.

Busy times ahead for SpaceX in the next 3 months with 6 launches.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ZachS09 on 05/25/2016 03:28 pm
If (and only if) FORMOSAT 5's first stage was to ever make an RTLS landing attempt, the vehicle would have to start pitching to about 60 degrees until 110 seconds into the flight when it will pitch back to around 89 degrees by the time MECO and stage separation occurs. That way, it would make it easier for the first stage to boostback towards LZ-2 without a hitch.

I got this info by simulating a VAFB RTLS on the Orbiter simulator.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Jim on 05/25/2016 04:58 pm
. That way, it would make it easier for the first stage to boostback towards LZ-2 without a hitch.


FYI, it would still be LC-1 or LZ-1 since it is at VAFB and facility naming conventions separate for each launch site.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: deruch on 05/27/2016 03:56 pm
. That way, it would make it easier for the first stage to boostback towards LZ-2 without a hitch.


FYI, it would still be LC-1 or LZ-1 since it is at VAFB and facility naming conventions separate for each launch site.

How does that track with your insistence that SpaceX doesn't have naming rights and that the base name will be the only official one (at least, this is my offhand recollection of your insistence during SpaceX's flirtation with using "Landing Complex-1")?  i.e. LZ-1 is still LC-13 and only LZ-1 by unofficial courtesy to SpaceX.  Ergo, SpaceX can "unofficially" designate their VAFB landing pad anything they want.  If they go to LZ-2 or LZ-42 that's up to them isn't it?  It'd still be SLC-4W officially, and there isn't any "unofficial" naming convention.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: sunbingfa on 06/14/2016 05:45 pm
Now CRS-9 is July 16th and there seems to be no launch before that (except the Euelsat and ABA mission). Iridium launch is in Sep now. Any update on this one? Before or after Iridium?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: tleski on 06/14/2016 05:57 pm
We will probably find out after the tomorrow's launch, but I don't think that Vandenberg delay means that flights from the Cape will be put on hold.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 06/14/2016 08:20 pm
Now CRS-9 is July 16th and there seems to be no launch before that (except the Euelsat and ABA mission). Iridium launch is in Sep now. Any update on this one? Before or after Iridium?

This just popped up on Twitter, Tweet from PBdeS (https://twitter.com/pbdes/status/742811664282615808)
Quote
Iridium CEO Desch: ... We think our Sept launch is next SpaceX launch from VAFB.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: dsobin on 06/14/2016 08:33 pm
Now CRS-9 is July 16th and there seems to be no launch before that (except the Euelsat and ABA mission). Iridium launch is in Sep now. Any update on this one? Before or after Iridium?

This just popped up on Twitter, Tweet from PBdeS (https://twitter.com/pbdes/status/742811664282615808)
Quote
Iridium CEO Desch: We've purchased 7 new Falcon 9s, no reusable stages in the mix. We think our Sept launch is next SpaceX launch from VAFB.

Presumable, Mr. Desch meant to say no reused stages, rather than no reusable stages, since all F9 stages are potentially reusable.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: intrepidpursuit on 06/14/2016 08:40 pm
This just popped up on Twitter, Tweet from PBdeS (https://twitter.com/pbdes/status/742811664282615808)
Quote
Iridium CEO Desch: We've purchased 7 new Falcon 9s, no reusable stages in the mix. We think our Sept launch is next SpaceX launch from VAFB.

That's curious. They don't sell rockets, they sell services. You could discount the first part as just imprecise speech. The second part is pretty definitive. I suppose since the insurance stuff is just getting worked out they may have made a bulk buy of insurances coverage before reusability was an option. I agree with dsobin that I'm sure he meant reused not reusable. Reusability is integral to the F9.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 06/14/2016 11:22 pm
Tweet from Peter B. de Selding (https://twitter.com/pbdes/status/742855232128843777)
Quote
SpaceX confirms Iridium launch NET 12 Sept to occur before Formosat 5 & Spaceflight Sherpa tug of 87 sats from VAFB.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mtakala24 on 06/19/2016 09:06 pm
Changed the thread title back to just September, as we've not heard of a date for this yet. This one should be after Iridium, as the tweets are confirming that it is the first launch from Vandenberg for SpaceX after summer.

Now, lets see if SpaceX can do both in September....


(and of course I had to mix up and post this into wrong thread first!)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 06/23/2016 10:00 pm
This link and the two attached pdf files are the best sources I've found for the SHERPA info so far.  One of the documents mentions 89 payloads, most places say 87, so who knows.

SHERPA Rideshare Mission on eoPortal.org (https://directory.eoportal.org/web/eoportal/satellite-missions/s/sherpa)
One of the pdf files is footnote three on this web page.

To slightly clarify what Rik ISS-fan said above (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=21984.msg1532851#msg1532851), the SHERPA will have a radial port adapter for the eXCITe payload, a dual port adapter for the pair of BlackSky payloads, and 3 of the QuadPack Plates to hold all of the cubesat launchers.

There are 21 QuadPack dispensers, which each mass 7.5kg and hold up to 24kg of payload, so that should be a maximum mass of 661.5kg for CubeSat dispensers and payloads, not counting the adapter plates.

Formosat 5 - 525kg

SHERPA (up to 1200kg, with or without the SHERPA itself?):
eXCITe (PTB 1) - 160kg
2x Blacksky Global Pathfinder - 2x50kg (edit: maybe not?)
84-86 CubeSats:
[6U] Arkyd-6, EcAMSat, ITASAT-1
[3U] Aalto-1, CNUSail 1, DIDO-1, ISARA, KAUSAT 5, LMPC (AeroCube 9), SIGMA (KHUSAT 3), Spire CubeSat (x20-ish)?
[2U] CANYVAL-X 2
[1.5U] OCSD B, OCSD C
[1U] 3CAT1, CANYVAL-X 1, CAT1, FOX-1C, FOX-1D, Nayif-1, ROBUSTA-1B, skCUBE, STEP Cube Lab, Suchai
[unknown] CubeSats (~40)

Edit 6/29: This article in SpaceNews (http://spacenews.com/spaceflight-waits-out-spacex-delays-expands-rideshare-business-to-larger-satellites-and-geo-orbit/) implies that there won't be Blacksky satellites on the Sherpa, so not sure what's going on with that spot.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Coastal Ron on 06/23/2016 11:00 pm
This just popped up on Twitter, Tweet from PBdeS (https://twitter.com/pbdes/status/742811664282615808)
Quote
Iridium CEO Desch: We've purchased 7 new Falcon 9s, no reusable stages in the mix. We think our Sept launch is next SpaceX launch from VAFB.

That's curious. They don't sell rockets, they sell services.

Right, SpaceX sells transportation services.

But they are now starting to offer different options for those services, such as launching on a rocket that has never been used previously, or on a rocket that has been used previously.  And those different options have different prices, so Iridium is likely just reiterating that their previous purchase of services has not changed, and that they will not be potentially lowering their launch costs by trying out reused rockets.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 08/02/2016 03:10 pm
Apparently Orbcomm is unhappy about someone throwing 90 smallsats that mostly don't have propulsion into an orbit near their constellation.  Looks like this flight has not been licensed by the FCC yet.  Also the number of payloads is up to 90, with more than half (56) of those being Planet Doves.  I haven't had a chance to read through all this stuff yet, there are probably more payload details to be found.  Lots of letters among Spaceflight, Orbcomm, Planet, etc. in the FCC filing that may be interesting reading (just started on the one from Planet so far.)

SpaceNews: Spaceflight’s 90-satellite mission, a boon for smallsats, 
is a nightmare for Orbcomm (http://www.spacenewsmag.com/feature/spaceflights-90-satellite-mission-a-boon-for-smallsats-%E2%80%A8is-a-nightmare-for-orbcomm/)
Quote
...
Orbcomm has asked U.S. regulators to stop the launch until Spaceflight demonstrates that releasing 90 satellites — most of them without on-board propulsion — into a single elliptical orbital plane overlapping Orbcomm’s constellation does not raise orbital-collision issues.

Orbcomm has been negotiating directly with smallsat operators Planet and Spire Global, both of San Francisco, on a solution. Planet and Spire combined are expected to account for a majority of the 90-satellite payload.

In petitions to the U.S. Federal Communications Commission, Orbcomm argues that the risk of collision or orbital debris creation posed by the Sherpa mission is too high to allow the flight to occur without a thorough vetting of the issues.
...

The FCC Application can be found here (http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/ib/forms/reports/swr031b.hts?q_set=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number/%3D/SATSTA2015082100060&prepare=&column=V_SITE_ANTENNA_FREQ.file_numberC/File+Number)
Here is the list of filings for that Application (http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/ib/forms/reports/related_filing.hts?f_key=-277532&f_number=SATSTA2015082100060)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 08/02/2016 05:12 pm
Updated payload list:
Formosat 5 - 525kg

SHERPA (603kg + ~620kg payloads):
eXCITe (PTB 1) - 160kg
Blacksky Global Pathfinder 2- 50kg (Pathfinder 1 was moved to PSLV)
88 CubeSats:
[6U] Arkyd-6, EcAMSat, ITASAT-1, CORVUS‐BC
[3U] Aalto-1, CNUSail 1, DIDO-1, ISARA, KAUSAT 5, ICE‐Cap, SIGMA (KHUSAT 3)
     Spire (Eight)
     Planet (56)
[2U] CANYVAL-X 2
[1.5U] OCSD B, OCSD C
[1U] 3CAT1, CANYVAL-X 1, PROPCUBE, FOX-1C, FOX-1D, Nayif-1, ROBUSTA-1B, skCUBE, STEP Cube Lab, Suchai

Edit 2016-08-08: Count down to 89 (per tweet from Jeff Foust (https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/762792887893405696)), don't know which one is getting left off.
Edit 2017-02-03: Planet removed their Doves (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=21984.msg1618211#msg1618211), they will launch on PSLV. 
      Nayif-1 has been removed (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=21984.msg1638257#msg1638257), it will launch on PSLV.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Dante80 on 08/09/2016 06:09 am
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/762793850255450112 (https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/762793850255450112)

Formosat 5/SHERPA in late October.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 08/09/2016 06:14 am
From Jeff Foust at the Small Sat conference:

Quote
Jason Andrews, Spaceflight: we see ourselves as one of the first commercial spacelines. Flown 93 satellites to date. #smallsat
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/762791795776368640 (https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/762791795776368640)

Quote
Andrews: 89 satellites flying on SHERPA mission, from 2U cubesats to a 150-kg satellite. #smallsat
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/762792887893405696 (https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/762792887893405696)

Quote
Andrews: asked SpaceX to drop perigee before deploying SHERPA to ensure satellites meet 25-year deorbit requirement. #smallsat
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/762793271198220288 (https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/762793271198220288)

Quote
Andrews: hoping for SHERPA launch (on Falcon 9 also carrying Formosat-5) from Vandenberg in late October.#smallsat
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/762793850255450112 (https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/762793850255450112)

Edit: Ninja'd on the final tweet! Copying & pasting between twitter & forum is slow on my phone ...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 08/31/2016 12:32 am
Checked the FCC application, looks like the bickering between Orbcomm and Spaceflight/Planet/Spire/etc continues.  Couple tidbits from the latest letters...

From a Spaceflight, Inc. letter:
Quote
On August 29, 2016, on behalf of Spaceflight, Inc. (“Spaceflight”), the undersigned spoke by telephone to Jose Albuquerque, Chief of the Satellite Division of the Commission’s International Bureau, to inform him of the September 9th scheduled commencement of integration activities for SHERPA.

During the course of this call, Mr. Albuquerque asked what entity would have the authority to abort the SHERPA separation from the Falcon 9 second stage, as well as release of the SHERPA mission secondary payload satellites, in the event of a SpaceX Formosat-5 launch mission anomaly that precludes lowering the Falcon 9 2d stage from the Formosat-5 720 km circular release orbit to the specified 450 x [720].

In the circumstances described above, the launch provider, SpaceX, has the authority to abort the SHEPRA separation to ensure mission safety, which will result in neither the SHERPA nor auxiliary payloads being deployed.
I'm assuming "integration activities" here means loading sats onto the Sherpa at Spaceflight's facility.

From a Planet letter:
Quote
Planet also emphasized its willingness to execute an agreement with ORBCOMM but emphasized that finalizing such an agreement should not be a prerequisite to the grant of a license. Planet has already begun adding GPS-derived orbital position estimates for its recently launched “Flock 2p” satellites to its publicly available website, http://ephemerides.planet-labs.com/, and will do so for the “Flock 2c” satellites as well. The GPS solutions are updated multiple times a day and provide more accurate orbit determination than JSPoC predictions or radio ranging, alone.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: russianhalo117 on 08/31/2016 12:56 am
Checked the FCC application, looks like the bickering between Orbcomm and Spaceflight/Planet/Spire/etc continues.  Couple tidbits from the latest letters...

From a Spaceflight, Inc. letter:
Quote
On August 29, 2016, on behalf of Spaceflight, Inc. (“Spaceflight”), the undersigned spoke by telephone to Jose Albuquerque, Chief of the Satellite Division of the Commission’s International Bureau, to inform him of the September 9th scheduled commencement of integration activities for SHERPA.

During the course of this call, Mr. Albuquerque asked what entity would have the authority to abort the SHERPA separation from the Falcon 9 second stage, as well as release of the SHERPA mission secondary payload satellites, in the event of a SpaceX Formosat-5 launch mission anomaly that precludes lowering the Falcon 9 2d stage from the Formosat-5 720 km circular release orbit to the specified 450 x [720].

In the circumstances described above, the launch provider, SpaceX, has the authority to abort the SHEPRA separation to ensure mission safety, which will result in neither the SHERPA nor auxiliary payloads being deployed.
I'm assuming "integration activities" here means loading sats onto the Sherpa at Spaceflight's facility.

From a Planet letter:
Quote
Planet also emphasized its willingness to execute an agreement with ORBCOMM but emphasized that finalizing such an agreement should not be a prerequisite to the grant of a license. Planet has already begun adding GPS-derived orbital position estimates for its recently launched “Flock 2p” satellites to its publicly available website, http://ephemerides.planet-labs.com/, and will do so for the “Flock 2c” satellites as well. The GPS solutions are updated multiple times a day and provide more accurate orbit determination than JSPoC predictions or radio ranging, alone.
Integration activities at this point refers to final integration for flight of SHERPA itself with its lower PAF and upper PAF. Secondary Payloads are integrated much closer to the launch date.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 09/18/2016 03:36 pm
Quote
SAT-MOD-20150802-00053 E S2912
Grant of Authority Effective Date: 09/15/2016
Modification 06/15/2016 - 02/28/2029

Planet Labs Inc.

Nature of Service: Earth Exploration Satellite Service

On September 15, 2016, the Satellite Division granted a previously deferred portion of the application of Planet Labs Inc. to modify its
authorization to construct, deploy and operate a system of technically identical non-geostationary orbit Earth Exploration Satellite Service satellites. Policy Branch Information Actions Taken, Public Notice, DA 16-688, rel. June 17, 2016. Specifically, Planet Labs license was modified to permit, as part of its authorization to construct, deploy and operate up to 600 technically identical NGSO EESS satellites, the deployment and operation of fifty six satellites in a 450 x 720 km orbit. The satellites will transmit remote sensing and telemetry data to fixed earth stations in the 8025-8400 MHz (space-to-Earth) frequency band, receive command signals in the 2025-2110 MHz (Earth-to-space) frequency band, and may use the 401-402 MHz (space-to-earth) and 449.75-450.25 MHz (Earth-to-space) frequency bands for early-phase and emergency-backup telemetry, tracking, and command operations, as well as for ranging and orbit determination on a non-emergency basis throughout the mission lifetime.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 10/20/2016 06:02 pm
On Oct. 14 the FCC approved Spire's satellites for the Sherpa mission, but still hasn't approved the Sherpa mission itself:
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 10/26/2016 05:52 pm
FCC finally issued the grant for SHERPA operation (pdf attached).

Several conditions on the grant, such as not deploying unless they reach the correct orbit.  No new payloads have been added, although eXCITe is carrying a small satellite called SeeMee that will deploy 3 weeks later.  The grant notes that the individual payloads can't be integrated onto SHERPA until they have their own licensing in order.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 10/26/2016 09:25 pm
FCC finally issued the grant for SHERPA operation (pdf attached).

Several conditions on the grant, such as not deploying unless they reach the correct orbit.  No new payloads have been added, although eXCITe is carrying a small satellite called SeeMee that will deploy 3 weeks later.  The grant notes that the individual payloads can't be integrated onto SHERPA until they have their own licensing in order.
Could the FCC licensing process delay the launch, to allow most or all payloads to receive their licenses?

Or cause payloads that fail to receive licensing by payload close-out time to be left on the ground?

Who makes the operational decision?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 10/26/2016 09:38 pm
FCC finally issued the grant for SHERPA operation (pdf attached).

Several conditions on the grant, such as not deploying unless they reach the correct orbit.  No new payloads have been added, although eXCITe is carrying a small satellite called SeeMee that will deploy 3 weeks later.  The grant notes that the individual payloads can't be integrated onto SHERPA until they have their own licensing in order.
Could the FCC licensing process delay the launch, to allow most or all payloads to receive their licenses?

Or cause payloads that fail to receive licensing by payload close-out time to be left on the ground?

Who makes the operational decision?

Most of the payloads should be licensed by now (about 2/3 of the payloads are from Planet and Spire, they have their licenses).  Some of the amateur/university payloads don't need as much licensing.  BlackSky has already launched one of their sats on PSLV so their license must be done.  I assume anything still lacking a license when integration time rolls around will just be replaced with a mass simulator.  The flight is already over a year behind their initial schedule, I don't think they'd delay it more over one or two of the cubesats.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 11/27/2016 03:17 pm
Quote
SES-STA-20150824-00549 E     Date Effective: 11/22/2016
On November 22, 2016, Spaceflight Inc. was granted special temporary authority to operate a fixed earth station in North Pole, AK for 180 days, beginning November 23, 2016 to provide space operation communications to the SHERPA spacecraft as it deploys small spacecraft in low Earth orbit over the course of a twelve-hour operational period using the following center frequencies: 401.5 MHz (space-to-Earth) and 450.2 MHz (Earth-to-space).

SES-STA-20150824-00550 E (same thing for fixed earth station in Tukwila, WA)
SES-STA-20150824-00551 E (same thing for fixed earth station in Wallops Island, VA)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: russianhalo117 on 11/29/2016 08:41 pm
Quote
SES-STA-20150824-00549 E     Date Effective: 11/22/2016
On November 22, 2016, Spaceflight Inc. was granted special temporary authority to operate a fixed earth station in North Pole, AK for 180 days, beginning November 23, 2016 to provide space operation communications to the SHERPA spacecraft as it deploys small spacecraft in low Earth orbit over the course of a twelve-hour operational period using the following center frequencies: 401.5 MHz (space-to-Earth) and 450.2 MHz (Earth-to-space).

SES-STA-20150824-00550 E (same thing for fixed earth station in Tukwila, WA)
SES-STA-20150824-00551 E (same thing for fixed earth station in Wallops Island, VA)
accompanying documment:
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lar on 11/29/2016 08:50 pm
presumably fairly close to @64.75367,-147.4382587 as North Pole is a suburb of Fairbanks and not that big of a place.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/North+Pole,+AK+99705/@64.75367,-147.4382586
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: russianhalo117 on 11/29/2016 09:22 pm
presumably fairly close to @64.75367,-147.4382587 as North Pole is a suburb of Fairbanks and not that big of a place.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/North+Pole,+AK+99705/@64.75367,-147.4382586
I have family in Fairbanks, AK. It is also an important railroad town for the military and is where Alaska's protion of the DODX railcar fleet is kept.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lar on 11/30/2016 02:17 am
presumably fairly close to @64.75367,-147.4382587 as North Pole is a suburb of Fairbanks and not that big of a place.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/North+Pole,+AK+99705/@64.75367,-147.4382586
it is a former military city, which became a public town due to the actions of the BRAC some years ago when one of the forts their was closed. I have family in Fairbanks, AK. It is also an important railroad town for the military and is where Alaska's protion of the DODX railcar fleet is kept.

I've driven through it and have (ex) relatives in Fairbanks too. Cool place. I'm just saying it's not the size of, say, LA, so those coordinates are not going to be more than a few miles off...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: a_langwich on 11/30/2016 04:08 am
presumably fairly close to @64.75367,-147.4382587 as North Pole is a suburb of Fairbanks and not that big of a place.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/North+Pole,+AK+99705/@64.75367,-147.4382586
it is a former military city, which became a public town due to the actions of the BRAC some years ago when one of the forts their was closed. I have family in Fairbanks, AK. It is also an important railroad town for the military and is where Alaska's protion of the DODX railcar fleet is kept.

"former military city, which became a public town"?

North Pole was incorporated specifically for touristy reasons in the 1950s, well before Fort Wainwright and Eielson AFB were deactivated.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: sdsds on 11/30/2016 05:57 am
http://www.sscspace.com/products-services/satellitemanagementservices/ground-network-prioranet-1/north-pole-satellite-station-4

Maybe this, at 1487 Bradway Rd, North Pole, AK.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: russianhalo117 on 11/30/2016 03:45 pm
http://www.sscspace.com/products-services/satellitemanagementservices/ground-network-prioranet-1/north-pole-satellite-station-4

Maybe this, at 1487 Bradway Rd, North Pole, AK.
That is an existing facility that is not part of the Alaska Satellite Facility (https://www.asf.alaska.edu/)
try this address, which is the one in the PDF:
1625 Richardson
Highway, North Pole,
Alaska
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 12/11/2016 04:30 pm
Nov. 14, 2016
Quote
Planet Labs has now informed Spaceflight that it is withdrawing its payload of 56 satellites from the SHERPA launch. Although this was not anticipated, it will not lead Spaceflight to cancel the SHERPA mission. Instead of the originally planned 90 satellites to be deployed (counting the SeeMe satellite to be deployed three weeks later from the eXCITe spacecraft), Spaceflight will proceed with the previously identified 34 satellites when SpaceX resumes launch activity and informs Spaceflight of its launch window. Pursuant to Spaceflight’s standard mission planning processes, the Planet Labs satellites will be replaced with mass simulators, which will not be deployed into orbit, but will remain in the SHERPA.

Dec. 7, 2016
Quote
On December 7, 2016, the Satellite Division reissued the special temporary authority granted to Spaceflight, Inc. on October 25, 2016. The authorization was revised pursuant to the filing by Spaceflight, Inc. on November 14, 2016, stating that 56 of the small spacecraft previously planned for deployment from the SHERPA spacecraft would no longer be deployed and would be replaced by mass simulators.

Applicable documents can be found here (http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/ib/forms/reports/related_filing.hts?f_key=-277532&f_number=SATSTA2015082100060)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Skyrocket on 12/11/2016 04:48 pm
Nov. 14, 2016
Quote
Planet Labs has now informed Spaceflight that it is withdrawing its payload of 56 satellites from the SHERPA launch. Although this was not anticipated, it will not lead Spaceflight to cancel the SHERPA mission. Instead of the originally planned 90 satellites to be deployed (counting the SeeMe satellite to be deployed three weeks later from the eXCITe spacecraft), Spaceflight will proceed with the previously identified 34 satellites when SpaceX resumes launch activity and informs Spaceflight of its launch window. Pursuant to Spaceflight’s standard mission planning processes, the Planet Labs satellites will be replaced with mass simulators, which will not be deployed into orbit, but will remain in the SHERPA.

Dec. 7, 2016
Quote
On December 7, 2016, the Satellite Division reissued the special temporary authority granted to Spaceflight, Inc. on October 25, 2016. The authorization was revised pursuant to the filing by Spaceflight, Inc. on November 14, 2016, stating that 56 of the small spacecraft previously planned for deployment from the SHERPA spacecraft would no longer be deployed and would be replaced by mass simulators.

Applicable documents can be found here (http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/ib/forms/reports/related_filing.hts?f_key=-277532&f_number=SATSTA2015082100060)

I suspect, the 56 Flock-2c cubesats will appear as the bulk of the 80-CubeSat payload of next years Indian PSLV launch with CardoSat-2D.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: yokem55 on 12/11/2016 04:57 pm
Any idea why Planet Labs pulled out? The launch delays?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Skyrocket on 12/11/2016 05:00 pm
Any idea why Planet Labs pulled out? The launch delays?

Orbital conflicts with Orbcomm
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 12/11/2016 05:13 pm
Any idea why Planet Labs pulled out? The launch delays?

Orbital conflicts with Orbcomm

They got FCC permission to launch in that orbit, the rest of the sats are still going there.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: russianhalo117 on 12/11/2016 05:44 pm
Nov. 14, 2016
Quote
Planet Labs has now informed Spaceflight that it is withdrawing its payload of 56 satellites from the SHERPA launch. Although this was not anticipated, it will not lead Spaceflight to cancel the SHERPA mission. Instead of the originally planned 90 satellites to be deployed (counting the SeeMe satellite to be deployed three weeks later from the eXCITe spacecraft), Spaceflight will proceed with the previously identified 34 satellites when SpaceX resumes launch activity and informs Spaceflight of its launch window. Pursuant to Spaceflight’s standard mission planning processes, the Planet Labs satellites will be replaced with mass simulators, which will not be deployed into orbit, but will remain in the SHERPA.

Dec. 7, 2016
Quote
On December 7, 2016, the Satellite Division reissued the special temporary authority granted to Spaceflight, Inc. on October 25, 2016. The authorization was revised pursuant to the filing by Spaceflight, Inc. on November 14, 2016, stating that 56 of the small spacecraft previously planned for deployment from the SHERPA spacecraft would no longer be deployed and would be replaced by mass simulators.

Applicable documents can be found here (http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/ib/forms/reports/related_filing.hts?f_key=-277532&f_number=SATSTA2015082100060)

I suspect, the 56 Flock-2c cubesats will appear as the bulk of the 80-CubeSat payload of next years Indian PSLV launch with CardoSat-2D.
yes I would think so since ISRO's civilian corporations that are commercializing their launchers and satellites mentioned that the company was one of the candidates for the mission's secondary payloads..
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mtakala24 on 12/13/2016 11:39 am
From what I know, Aalto-1 final battery charging and integration to the dispenser was done in May 2016. How long are typical cubesats certified to be ready?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Rik ISS-fan on 01/13/2017 07:18 pm
Tweet from ISILAUNCH: http://twitter.com/ISILaunch/status/818832349760667648 (http://twitter.com/ISILaunch/status/818832349760667648)
Narifone has been recharged.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: oldAtlas_Eguy on 01/14/2017 07:05 pm
Do we have all the sats at VAFB or are they still to be shipped. I would not expect launch until 30 days after all of them are integrated into the SHERPA.

There is no other launches for VAFB until the Iridium Next Flt 2 at NET April 15.

Launch of Formosat-5 could be as late as 15 March without any impacts at all on the next Iridium launch.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 01/14/2017 07:28 pm
The sats on SHERPA are integrated before it is shipped to Vandenberg.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: oldAtlas_Eguy on 01/14/2017 08:33 pm
The sats on SHERPA are integrated before it is shipped to Vandenberg.
Thanks.
So SpaceX treats the SHERPA as if it was a single sat payload in their handling and processing flow. So think of what other payload arrivals at launch site time period before launch would be.

So do we have any indication of when SI is planning to ship the SHERPA to VAFB?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: wsl2005 on 01/19/2017 06:40 am
Canyval-X

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 01/19/2017 06:54 am
NASA Canyval-X fact sheet attached.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: DOCinCT on 01/19/2017 01:17 pm
Canyval-X
Don't understand what this has to do with Formosat5/SHERPA???
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 01/19/2017 01:43 pm
Canyval-X
Don't understand what this has to do with Formosat5/SHERPA???

It's one of the cubesats on SHERPA.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: IanThePineapple on 01/29/2017 11:20 pm
I'm assuming a late summer/early winter Formosat launch, it's almost on FH-levels of delays.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mtakala24 on 01/30/2017 11:04 am
You mean that it won't be the next SpaceX launch from Vandenberg? Is there any documentation to support your assumption?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: shooter6947 on 01/31/2017 12:06 am
With all of the LC-39A and LC-40 delays back East, why doesn't SpaceX send some cores to their working pad LC-4E out West and launch the Sherpa mission sooner rather than later?  I realize that they've gotta wait 90 days for more Iridium launches, but might as well work through the polar orbit backlog, too...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 01/31/2017 01:23 am
With all of the LC-39A and LC-40 delays back East, why doesn't SpaceX send some cores to their working pad LC-4E out West and launch the Sherpa mission sooner rather than later?  I realize that they've gotta wait 90 days for more Iridium launches, but might as well work through the polar orbit backlog, too...

Because orbital launches require an active commercial launch license with the FAA, an active license with the FCC for TT&C (tracking, telemetry and control), clearance and coordination with the launch range operator, and detailed mission planning and coordination with the customer, launch crews, and mission management teams. You can't just swap these things around like running a bus route.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: envy887 on 01/31/2017 01:34 am
Are the payloads ready for this launch?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: manoweb on 01/31/2017 02:58 am
Because orbital launches require an active commercial launch license with the FAA, an active license with the FCC for TT&C (tracking, telemetry and control), clearance and coordination with the launch range operator, and detailed mission planning and coordination with the customer, launch crews, and mission management teams. You can't just swap these things around like running a bus route.

Ironically, today they just swapped around flights on LC-39A (Echostar23 with Dragon10), so I would be very surprised if the government red tape is really the reason for backlog. I think SpaceX attorney team is well versed in getting the necessary FCC licenses...

I think the real reason is more like, there is a big overlap of personnel that is required for a polar launches from Vandenberg and the one that needs to work on LC39A, LC40, Boca Chica, etc...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: old_sellsword on 01/31/2017 03:27 am
Because orbital launches require an active commercial launch license with the FAA, an active license with the FCC for TT&C (tracking, telemetry and control), clearance and coordination with the launch range operator, and detailed mission planning and coordination with the customer, launch crews, and mission management teams. You can't just swap these things around like running a bus route.

Ironically, today they just swapped around flights on LC-39A (Echostar23 with Dragon10), so I would be very surprised if the government red tape is really the reason for backlog. I think SpaceX attorney team is well versed in getting the necessary FCC licenses...

I think the real reason is more like, there is a big overlap of personnel that is required for a polar launches from Vandenberg and the one that needs to work on LC39A, LC40, Boca Chica, etc...

The red tape was already done away with for those two missions. Really all they did was push EchoStar 23 back, which happens quite frequently.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: cscott on 01/31/2017 04:23 am
L2 has some info re: why no Vandenberg launches right now: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=41611.msg1637001.msg#1637001

"Red tape." More or less.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 02/03/2017 04:10 pm
Another update on the payloads for this mission:
The UAE's Nayiv-1 cubesat has been moved from the Falcon-9/FORMOSAT-5/SHERPA launch to the PSLV C37 launch
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: WHAP on 02/06/2017 09:49 pm
L2 has some info re: why no Vandenberg launches right now: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=41611.msg1637001.msg#1637001

"Red tape." More or less.

Can you define "right now"?  There are Atlas and Delta launches from VAFB planned for March, June, and October.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: old_sellsword on 02/06/2017 10:14 pm
L2 has some info re: why no Vandenberg launches right now: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=41611.msg1637001.msg#1637001

"Red tape." More or less.

Can you define "right now"?  There are Atlas and Delta launches from VAFB planned for March, June, and October.

SpaceX-specific red tape.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: IanThePineapple on 02/06/2017 10:30 pm
Just hopped onto this thread, why wasn't FORMOSAT/SHERPA launched in early Summer 2016 like planned, and why does it keep getting delayed? Will it launch anytime soon?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: jjyach on 02/06/2017 11:32 pm
Just hopped onto this thread, why wasn't FORMOSAT/SHERPA launched in early Summer 2016 like planned, and why does it keep getting delayed? Will it launch anytime soon?

The range at Vandy was down for a long time last year.  Affected all launch operators.

http://www.vandenberg.af.mil/News/Features/Display/Article/881089/western-range-set-to-resume-normal-operations
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: WHAP on 02/07/2017 03:35 am
Just hopped onto this thread, why wasn't FORMOSAT/SHERPA launched in early Summer 2016 like planned, and why does it keep getting delayed? Will it launch anytime soon?

The range at Vandy was down for a long time last year.  Affected all launch operators.

http://www.vandenberg.af.mil/News/Features/Display/Article/881089/western-range-set-to-resume-normal-operations

Pretty disingenuous response.  There's no evidence the closure had anything to do with this.  The range closure was well known - to all operators - long before I posted here. 
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=21984.msg1498856#msg1498856
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=21984.msg1532181#msg1532181
I don't recall that a clear reason was ever given for the slip.  Spacecraft, vehicle, and pad (not range) readiness are probably all valid candidates.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 02/07/2017 03:54 am
Just hopped onto this thread, why wasn't FORMOSAT/SHERPA launched in early Summer 2016 like planned, and why does it keep getting delayed? Will it launch anytime soon?

The range at Vandy was down for a long time last year.  Affected all launch operators.

http://www.vandenberg.af.mil/News/Features/Display/Article/881089/western-range-set-to-resume-normal-operations

Pretty disingenuous response.  There's no evidence the closure had anything to do with this.  The range closure was well known - to all operators - long before I posted here. 
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=21984.msg1498856#msg1498856
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=21984.msg1532181#msg1532181
I don't recall that a clear reason was ever given for the slip.  Spacecraft, vehicle, and pad (not range) readiness are probably all valid candidates.

Originally payload availability and FCC licensing, then the range closure, then FCC licensing, and now probably launch vehicle availability.

p.s.  The "red tape" mentioned above was not SpaceX specific, and not long term.  It actually wasn't red tape at all, but had to do with the western range setup.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mme on 02/07/2017 04:02 am
I have the worst question ever. Does anyone on base really call it Vandy? I'm not asking if "outsiders" call it that.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: woods170 on 02/07/2017 06:13 am
I have the worst question ever. Does anyone on base really call it Vandy? I'm not asking if "outsiders" call it that.
AirForce folks filming Delta launches referred to it as Vandy as early as 1983.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: dglow on 02/07/2017 06:27 am
I have the worst question ever. Does anyone on base really call it Vandy? I'm not asking if "outsiders" call it that.

I've heard people from Lompoc call it 'Vandy' or just 'the base'. Not AF, but I wouldn't say they're outsiders.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mme on 02/07/2017 06:52 am
I have the worst question ever. Does anyone on base really call it Vandy? I'm not asking if "outsiders" call it that.
AirForce folks filming Delta launches referred to it as Vandy as early as 1983.
Thanks, that was what I was looking for.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Jim on 02/07/2017 01:11 pm
I have the worst question ever. Does anyone on base really call it Vandy? I'm not asking if "outsiders" call it that.
AirForce folks filming Delta launches referred to it as Vandy as early as 1983.
Thanks, that was what I was looking for.

It isn't widespread, it is used by few insiders.  And outsiders don't use it.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 02/07/2017 01:38 pm
I have the worst question ever. Does anyone on base really call it Vandy? I'm not asking if "outsiders" call it that.
AirForce folks filming Delta launches referred to it as Vandy as early as 1983.
Thanks, that was what I was looking for.

It isn't widespread, it is used by few insiders.  And outsiders don't use it.
Besides, everyone knows "Vandy" is Vanderbilt University (one of my alma maters). ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 02/07/2017 03:56 pm
Returning back to news updates, I decided to check out what's going on with Formosat-5 - it's still in Taiwan, though apparently ready for shipping. So at least this is not what holding the launch.

These kids participating in a winter camp last month (http://www.nspo.narl.org.tw/tw2015/info/news.shtml?id=000587&hid=6CWwjbnCpB) actually got a chance to see Formosat-5 and the Formosat-7 constellation (*) up close. You can see them building a Formosat-5 paper model and taking group photos in front of a not-so-precise F9 model.  ;)

(*) The 1st 6 are going up on FH/STP-2  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: cscott on 02/07/2017 08:44 pm
Originally payload availability and FCC licensing, then the range closure, then FCC licensing, and now probably launch vehicle availability.

p.s.  The "red tape" mentioned above was not SpaceX specific, and not long term.  It actually wasn't red tape at all, but had to do with the western range setup.

The end of your first paragraph is contradicted by your second paragraph. "Now probably *range setup*" (not launch vehicle availability).
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 02/07/2017 09:03 pm
Originally payload availability and FCC licensing, then the range closure, then FCC licensing, and now probably launch vehicle availability.

p.s.  The "red tape" mentioned above was not SpaceX specific, and not long term.  It actually wasn't red tape at all, but had to do with the western range setup.

The end of your first paragraph is contradicted by your second paragraph. "Now probably *range setup*" (not launch vehicle availability).

I don't see any contradiction.  I don't think the mission is ready to fly.  There has been no indication it will launch anytime soon.  The current range issue is completely irrelevant in that case.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: IanThePineapple on 02/07/2017 10:03 pm
Returning back to news updates, I decided to check out what's going on with Formosat-5 - it's still in Taiwan, though apparently ready for shipping. So at least this is not what holding the launch.

(Picture) These kids participating in a winter camp last month actually got a chance to see Formosat-5 and the Formosat-7 constellation (*) up close. You can see them building a Formosat-5 paper model and taking group photos in front of a not-so-precise F9 model.  ;)

(*) The 1st 6 are going up on FH/STP-2  ;)

That F9 must really love Formosat to have it printed on its side, along with a flag and a bunch of words on it  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: cscott on 02/08/2017 01:27 am
Originally payload availability and FCC licensing, then the range closure, then FCC licensing, and now probably launch vehicle availability.

p.s.  The "red tape" mentioned above was not SpaceX specific, and not long term.  It actually wasn't red tape at all, but had to do with the western range setup.

The end of your first paragraph is contradicted by your second paragraph. "Now probably *range setup*" (not launch vehicle availability).

I don't see any contradiction.  I don't think the mission is ready to fly.  There has been no indication it will launch anytime soon.  The current range issue is completely irrelevant in that case.
They've got not one but two falcons ready to go and queued up at 39A waiting for the pad to be ready.  We know vandy has range issues.  I don't think the vehicle is the long stick in this tent.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 02/08/2017 01:32 am
Originally payload availability and FCC licensing, then the range closure, then FCC licensing, and now probably launch vehicle availability.

p.s.  The "red tape" mentioned above was not SpaceX specific, and not long term.  It actually wasn't red tape at all, but had to do with the western range setup.

The end of your first paragraph is contradicted by your second paragraph. "Now probably *range setup*" (not launch vehicle availability).

I don't see any contradiction.  I don't think the mission is ready to fly.  There has been no indication it will launch anytime soon.  The current range issue is completely irrelevant in that case.
They've got not one but two falcons ready to go and queued up at 39A waiting for the pad to be ready.  We know vandy has range issues.  I don't think the vehicle is the long stick in this tent.

They have more payloads than launch vehicles, and will for at least the next year.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: WHAP on 02/08/2017 03:46 am
Originally payload availability and FCC licensing, then the range closure, then FCC licensing, and now probably launch vehicle availability.

p.s.  The "red tape" mentioned above was not SpaceX specific, and not long term.  It actually wasn't red tape at all, but had to do with the western range setup.

The end of your first paragraph is contradicted by your second paragraph. "Now probably *range setup*" (not launch vehicle availability).

I don't see any contradiction.  I don't think the mission is ready to fly.  There has been no indication it will launch anytime soon.  The current range issue is completely irrelevant in that case.
They've got not one but two falcons ready to go and queued up at 39A waiting for the pad to be ready.  We know vandy has range issues.  I don't think the vehicle is the long stick in this tent.


We do not "know Vandy has range issues".  There were no range issues affecting the Atlas launch when it was originally scheduled for January, nor is there a range issue affecting the March date.  SpaceX may have issues with the range, but VAFB does not have range issues.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: manoweb on 02/08/2017 05:23 am
SpaceX may have issues with the range, but VAFB does not have range issues.

What kind of issues SpaceX has at Vandenberg? They launched recently, something went wrong in that occasion?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Comga on 02/08/2017 06:23 am
I believe the answers to
SpaceX may have issues with the range, but VAFB does not have range issues.

What kind of issues SpaceX has at Vandenberg? They launched recently, something went wrong in that occasion?

As far as I have read, nothing went wrong with the Iridium launch.
The answer to all of these questions and speculations may be in L2.  There is no mystery about why SpaceX is not launching next from Vandenberg.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 02/15/2017 03:40 pm
Tweet from Peter B. de Selding: (https://twitter.com/pbdes/status/831890423383736320)
Quote
Customer on @SpaceflightInc 's Sherpa tug awaiting @SpaceX launch: Our best guess at this point is a 2018 launch.

Space Intel Report: US policy on India’s rockets: Dead man walking (https://www.spaceintelreport.com/us-policy-on-indias-rockets-dead-man-walking)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: old_sellsword on 03/02/2017 11:00 pm
A MESSAGE FROM SPACEFLIGHT PRESIDENT CURT BLAKE ON THE FORMASAT-5/SHERPA LAUNCH (http://www.spaceflight.com/message-spaceflight-president-curt-blake-formasat-5sherpa-launch/)

Quote
One of our biggest, and most valued, differentiators in the market is that Spaceflight is dedicated to providing our customers an array of launch options to meet their deployment needs. Never has this come into play more than it did these last several weeks.

Here’s the challenge: Getting to space is hard. All launch vehicles experience delays and failures – and this pain is felt by the entire launch industry – no one is spared. On the flipside, when launches happen (like many have recently), it’s cause for all to celebrate. Revolutionizing commercial space is hard, but it’s exactly what we all signed up to do.

We applaud the work that SpaceX has done, and is continuing to do on behalf of the industry. We couldn’t be more thrilled to see them solve some of the toughest challenges of our time and always look forward to working with them. However, they recently communicated their 2017 manifest and the impact on the Formosat-5 mission is significant. We learned our launch would occur potentially much later than expected. (As a secondary rideshare on this mission, our control of the schedule is far less than when we’re the primary like on our SSO-A dedicated mission later this year.)

Our response: Our job, first and foremost, is to satisfy our customers’ needs to get into space as quickly and cost-effectively as possible. While delays are inevitable in the launch business, we made the decision to rebook all our customers slated to launch on the FormoSat-5 mission.

The result: We found each of our customers an alternative launch that was within the same time frame. It took a huge effort, but within two weeks, the team hustled to have all customers who wanted to be rebooked confirmed on other launches!

This flexibility and access to other LVs, the standardization of technology, and the expertise of our team is indeed the “secret sauce” of Spaceflight. Because we work with many launch providers around the world, we can give our customers the most options to meet their needs. I am incredibly proud of our team. They worked tirelessly with all our launch partners to rebook our customers so quickly. Our customers can be sure that we will always go above and beyond to fulfill our commitment to get them to space.

Onward and upward,

Curt Blake
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: manoweb on 03/02/2017 11:20 pm
Translated in simple English...???
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: envy887 on 03/02/2017 11:28 pm
Translated in simple English...???

FORMOSAT 5/SHERPA is delayed (to 2018?). All their customers that want to launch sooner are rebooked on other launchers.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: russianhalo117 on 03/02/2017 11:47 pm
Translated in simple English...???

FORMOSAT 5/SHERPA is delayed (to 2018?). All their customers that want to launch sooner are rebooked on other launchers.
NET June 2017. Only high priority payloads that couldn't wait any longer were rebooked.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: OnWithTheShow on 03/03/2017 12:20 am
Translated in simple English...???

FORMOSAT 5/SHERPA is delayed (to 2018?). All their customers that want to launch sooner are rebooked on other launchers.
NET June 2017. Only high priority payloads that couldn't wait any longer were rebooked.

Thats not what the press release says:

Quote
we made the decision to rebook all our customers
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: old_sellsword on 03/03/2017 12:31 am
Translated in simple English...???

FORMOSAT 5/SHERPA is delayed (to 2018?). All their customers that want to launch sooner are rebooked on other launchers.
NET June 2017. Only high priority payloads that couldn't wait any longer were rebooked.

Thats not what the press release says:

Quote
we made the decision to rebook all our customers

It says both things actually:

Quote
...the team hustled to have all customers who wanted to be rebooked confirmed on other launches!

There's some conflicting information coming from this press release, hopefully this can be cleared up.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 03/03/2017 01:16 am
Does this make it more clear?  (and this really doesn't surprise me at all)

edit: It appears SHERPA was cancelled from this flight.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: stcks on 03/03/2017 01:31 am
So, what happens to Formosat-5 then? Is it going to get a new rideshare partner from somewhere? If not, would SpaceX actually consider launching it alone? I hope not, it would be one cheap F9 flight if so...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: rockets4life97 on 03/03/2017 01:35 am
This is a holdover from the Falcon 1 days right? I can't imagine SpaceX was going to make too much money on this launch. Unfortunately, that meant it was a low priority over their other major customers (Iridium, SES, etc.)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: macpacheco on 03/03/2017 03:39 am
SpaceX top priority right now is fulfilling delayed launches that are accumulating fines/discounts, for customers that are in the most financial pain due to their payloads not in orbit generating revenue. For commercial customers fines normally don't come even close to compensating for half of their losses. There's always the risk of loosing a customer for future launches and/or expensive lawsuits. After an unexpected stand down, putting an extra effort towards the most important customers is essential, The only not for profit customer that commands that treatment is NASA. All other scientific customers will end up waiting.

Even if SpaceX had 3 complete F9s ready to go today (including the SES-10 booster reuse), doesn't mean any launches should be allocated to payloads not in the most critical criteria. SpaceX likely can launch payloads faster than it can replenish with new F9s.

Once reuse becomes routine and commercial customers accept flying on reused boosters, then the whole thing changes.

That's the kind of headaches Ms. Shotwell has to contend with in such situations.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: manoweb on 03/03/2017 01:53 pm
OK but one can argue that it is really the pad that took time, that was the bottleneck. There is evidence 39A needed and still needs more work than nominal, while SLC4 is idle, why not launch as much as possible from what has been accumulated on the West coast?
I know SpaceX has reasons for this. I would genuinely like to understand the answer.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: rockets4life97 on 03/03/2017 05:05 pm
OK but one can argue that it is really the pad that took time, that was the bottleneck. There is evidence 39A needed and still needs more work than nominal, while SLC4 is idle, why not launch as much as possible from what has been accumulated on the West coast?
I know SpaceX has reasons for this. I would genuinely like to understand the answer.

My guess is that second stages are a bottleneck. Both failures in the last 2 years were do 2nd stage issues. I doubt SpaceX restarted building 2nd stages until quite late in the Amos-6 investigation.

Another piece of the story I think is that towards the end of March, ULA won't launch from the Cape for about 3 months. I think you are going to see SpaceX try and pack in as many launches as possible in those 3 months.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: manoweb on 03/03/2017 05:13 pm
Well my observation wasn't about the future (ULA not launching at the Cape) but the missed launch opportunities from Vandenberg. A shortage of second stages might partially explain that...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: soltasto on 03/03/2017 06:47 pm
I guess this mission now becomes one of the best candidates for the SpaceX Internet constellation test satellites. Lot of volume to fill and plenty of mass left too. 

This is pure speculation thought.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: jpo234 on 03/03/2017 07:04 pm
I guess this mission now becomes one of the best candidates for the SpaceX Internet constellation test satellites. Lot of volume to fill and plenty of mass left too. 

This is pure speculation thought.
Would the CommX satellites go into a polar orbit? The iridium sats do, so this seems possible.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Jarnis on 03/03/2017 07:50 pm
I guess this mission now becomes one of the best candidates for the SpaceX Internet constellation test satellites. Lot of volume to fill and plenty of mass left too. 

This is pure speculation thought.
Would the CommX satellites go into a polar orbit? The iridium sats do, so this seems possible.

For the test sats, I'm fairly sure only the altitude really matters.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 03/03/2017 08:50 pm
The SpaceX test sats haven't gotten their FCC license yet.  (If you look at the application they are getting some requests for clarification from the FCC, so it is at least getting processed.)  What flight they could launch on kinda depends on when they're approved for launch...

Iridium is launched into 86.6 degrees, 625km circular orbit.  Formosat-5 is 97.4 degrees, 720km circular.  The application for the SpaceX test sats says deployment at 97.44 degrees, 514-km circular orbit (they could always file an amendment to change that).  I don't know what the orbits for SSO-A or SAOCOM-1A are going to be? 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: baldusi on 03/03/2017 10:29 pm
SAOCOM are 700km SSO
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: smoliarm on 03/04/2017 10:01 pm
The SpaceX test sats haven't gotten their FCC license yet.  (If you look at the application they are getting some requests for clarification from the FCC, so it is at least getting processed.)  What flight they could launch on kinda depends on when they're approved for launch...

Iridium is launched into 86.6 degrees, 625km circular orbit.  Formosat-5 is 97.4 degrees, 720km circular.  The application for the SpaceX test sats says deployment at 97.44 degrees, 514-km circular orbit (they could always file an amendment to change that).  I don't know what the orbits for SSO-A or SAOCOM-1A are going to be?

FormoSat-5
https://directory.eoportal.org/web/eoportal/satellite-missions/f/formosat-5
Quote
Orbit of primary payload: Sun-synchronous near-circular orbit of FormoSat-5, altitude = 720 km, inclination = 98.28º, period = 99.19 minutes, LTDN (Local Time on Descending Node) at ~ 10 hours.

SAOCOM 1A
http://database.eohandbook.com/database/missionsummary.aspx?missionID=405
Quote
Orbit Type   Sun-synchronous   
Orbit Period   97.2 minutes
Orbit Sense   Ascending   
Orbit Inclination   97.89 deg
Orbit Altitude   620 km   
Orbit Longitude   Repeat Cycle   16 days
Orbit LST   6:12   
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Comga on 03/05/2017 06:15 am
The difference between a 720 km high sun synchronize orbit and a 514 km SSO is 155 m/s including plane changes.

If it matters.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Greg Hullender on 03/05/2017 05:49 pm
Iridium is launched into 86.6 degrees, 625km circular orbit.  Formosat-5 is 97.4 degrees, 720km circular.  The application for the SpaceX test sats says deployment at 97.44 degrees, 514-km circular orbit (they could always file an amendment to change that).  I don't know what the orbits for SSO-A or SAOCOM-1A are going to be? 

If a polar orbit is inclined 90 degrees, what does it mean for an orbit to be inclined 97.4 degrees? Isn't that just the same as one inclined 82.6 degrees?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mark_m on 03/05/2017 06:01 pm
Iridium is launched into 86.6 degrees, 625km circular orbit.  Formosat-5 is 97.4 degrees, 720km circular.  The application for the SpaceX test sats says deployment at 97.44 degrees, 514-km circular orbit (they could always file an amendment to change that).  I don't know what the orbits for SSO-A or SAOCOM-1A are going to be? 

If a polar orbit is inclined 90 degrees, what does it mean for an orbit to be inclined 97.4 degrees? Isn't that just the same as one inclined 82.6 degrees?

If I'm thinking about it correctly, 82.6º would be almost polar, but the component that's not polar is in the same direction as the rotation of the Earth, whereas 97.4º is slightly retrograde. Both would be 7.4º away from exactly polar.

-82.6º would be in the same plane as 97.4º, but traveling in the opposite direction.

Edit: Changed after a reread made me think my first answer didn't make sense.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: WHAP on 03/05/2017 07:00 pm
OK but one can argue that it is really the pad that took time, that was the bottleneck. There is evidence 39A needed and still needs more work than nominal, while SLC4 is idle, why not launch as much as possible from what has been accumulated on the West coast?
I know SpaceX has reasons for this. I would genuinely like to understand the answer.

My guess is that second stages are a bottleneck. Both failures in the last 2 years were do 2nd stage issues. I doubt SpaceX restarted building 2nd stages until quite late in the Amos-6 investigation.

Another piece of the story I think is that towards the end of March, ULA won't launch from the Cape for about 3 months. I think you are going to see SpaceX try and pack in as many launches as possible in those 3 months.

Sorry, but what difference does ULA launching from the Cape make?  If you assume each vehicle takes 3 days on the Range, including a WDR and two attempts (typically no WDR and one attempt), that's a total of 6 days in March.  Please don't try to suggest that this reduction in availability is what's hampering SpaceX from clearing its backlog.  There are ample opportunities for SpaceX to get off the ground with the remaining 80% of days in March.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 03/05/2017 10:54 pm
Iridium is launched into 86.6 degrees, 625km circular orbit.  Formosat-5 is 97.4 degrees, 720km circular.  The application for the SpaceX test sats says deployment at 97.44 degrees, 514-km circular orbit (they could always file an amendment to change that).  I don't know what the orbits for SSO-A or SAOCOM-1A are going to be? 

If a polar orbit is inclined 90 degrees, what does it mean for an orbit to be inclined 97.4 degrees? Isn't that just the same as one inclined 82.6 degrees?

No. An orbit with an inclination of less than 90 degrees has a small eastward component. An orbit with an inclination greater than 90 degrees is at least partially retrograde.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Wolfram66 on 03/05/2017 11:18 pm
Iridium is launched into 86.6 degrees, 625km circular orbit.  Formosat-5 is 97.4 degrees, 720km circular.  The application for the SpaceX test sats says deployment at 97.44 degrees, 514-km circular orbit (they could always file an amendment to change that).  I don't know what the orbits for SSO-A or SAOCOM-1A are going to be? 

If a polar orbit is inclined 90 degrees, what does it mean for an orbit to be inclined 97.4 degrees? Isn't that just the same as one inclined 82.6 degrees?


No. An orbit with an inclination of less than 90 degrees has a small eastward component. An orbit with an inclination greater than 90 degrees is at least partially retrograde.
97.4 is more indicative of a SSO or Sun-Synchronous Orbit ... hence the name SSO-A
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 03/05/2017 11:23 pm
Iridium is launched into 86.6 degrees, 625km circular orbit.  Formosat-5 is 97.4 degrees, 720km circular.  The application for the SpaceX test sats says deployment at 97.44 degrees, 514-km circular orbit (they could always file an amendment to change that).  I don't know what the orbits for SSO-A or SAOCOM-1A are going to be? 

If a polar orbit is inclined 90 degrees, what does it mean for an orbit to be inclined 97.4 degrees? Isn't that just the same as one inclined 82.6 degrees?


No. An orbit with an inclination of less than 90 degrees has a small eastward component. An orbit with an inclination greater than 90 degrees is at least partially retrograde.
97.4 is more indicative of a SSO or Sun-Synchronous Orbit ... hence the name SSO-A

Now think through how an orbit can be sun-synchronous as the Earth rotates ... ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: meberbs on 03/06/2017 12:02 am
Iridium is launched into 86.6 degrees, 625km circular orbit.  Formosat-5 is 97.4 degrees, 720km circular.  The application for the SpaceX test sats says deployment at 97.44 degrees, 514-km circular orbit (they could always file an amendment to change that).  I don't know what the orbits for SSO-A or SAOCOM-1A are going to be? 

If a polar orbit is inclined 90 degrees, what does it mean for an orbit to be inclined 97.4 degrees? Isn't that just the same as one inclined 82.6 degrees?


No. An orbit with an inclination of less than 90 degrees has a small eastward component. An orbit with an inclination greater than 90 degrees is at least partially retrograde.
97.4 is more indicative of a SSO or Sun-Synchronous Orbit ... hence the name SSO-A

Now think through how an orbit can be sun-synchronous as the Earth rotates ... ;)
Sun synchronous means the orbit precesses once per year, and is only possible because of the J2 perturbation. While prograde vs retrograde changes the direction of the precession, it is not exactly intuitive which direction leads to which precession.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 03/06/2017 12:12 am
Iridium is launched into 86.6 degrees, 625km circular orbit.  Formosat-5 is 97.4 degrees, 720km circular.  The application for the SpaceX test sats says deployment at 97.44 degrees, 514-km circular orbit (they could always file an amendment to change that).  I don't know what the orbits for SSO-A or SAOCOM-1A are going to be? 

If a polar orbit is inclined 90 degrees, what does it mean for an orbit to be inclined 97.4 degrees? Isn't that just the same as one inclined 82.6 degrees?


No. An orbit with an inclination of less than 90 degrees has a small eastward component. An orbit with an inclination greater than 90 degrees is at least partially retrograde.
97.4 is more indicative of a SSO or Sun-Synchronous Orbit ... hence the name SSO-A

Now think through how an orbit can be sun-synchronous as the Earth rotates ... ;)
Sun synchronous means the orbit precesses once per year, and is only possible because of the J2 perturbation. While prograde vs retrograde changes the direction of the precession, it is not exactly intuitive which direction leads to which precession.

Setting aside the technical details of a sun-synchronous orbit, an orbit with an inclination of greater than 90 degrees is - by definition - retrotrograde. Which is what I said above. In practice, typical sun synchronous orbits are generally >90 degrees, and thus retrograde.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 03/06/2017 06:35 am
Jeff Foust's write-up of Spaceflight's rebooking launches:

http://spacenews.com/spacex-delays-force-spaceflight-to-find-alternative-launches/ (http://spacenews.com/spacex-delays-force-spaceflight-to-find-alternative-launches/)

It contains this:

Quote
Spaceflight spokeswoman Jodi Sorensen said March 2 that most of the satellites that had been flying on Sherpa will be rebooked on one of two launches. One is on the company’s own dedicated Falcon 9 mission, dubbed SSO-A, scheduled to launch from Vandenberg later this year. The other is an unspecified “international launch” scheduled for this summer or fall.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mtakala24 on 03/06/2017 01:46 pm
Aalto-1 Cubesat team press release in Helsingin Sanomat newspaper says today, that their new ride is on an Indian rocket.

There is also a mention of it being a PSLV-XL vehicle:
http://www.tiedetuubi.fi/blogit/aalto-1-blogi-mita-intialainen-kantoraketti

I suspect a number of cubesats from Sherpa will be on that launch.

So, see you on another thread regarding Aalto-1.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Jarnis on 03/06/2017 01:54 pm
Jeff Foust's write-up of Spaceflight's rebooking launches:

http://spacenews.com/spacex-delays-force-spaceflight-to-find-alternative-launches/ (http://spacenews.com/spacex-delays-force-spaceflight-to-find-alternative-launches/)

It contains this:

Quote
Spaceflight spokeswoman Jodi Sorensen said March 2 that most of the satellites that had been flying on Sherpa will be rebooked on one of two launches. One is on the company’s own dedicated Falcon 9 mission, dubbed SSO-A, scheduled to launch from Vandenberg later this year. The other is an unspecified “international launch” scheduled for this summer or fall.

So is the delay with the primary payload, or with the rocket? Or is this some kind of deal where different launches have different contractual terms and Formosat-5 was kinda "we'll launch it whenever we feel like" while later-booked SSO-A has a more firm launch date in the contract?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 03/06/2017 02:18 pm
So is the delay with the primary payload, or with the rocket? Or is this some kind of deal where different launches have different contractual terms and Formosat-5 was kinda "we'll launch it whenever we feel like" while later-booked SSO-A has a more firm launch date in the contract?

There seem to have been various reasons for delays over the past couple years, but the last few months the delay was definitely on the rocket side.  More than half of the payloads that were going to be on SHERPA have ALREADY LAUNCHED on PSLV.  Once that happened the odds of the SHERPA getting canceled from this flight were pretty high.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 03/06/2017 03:22 pm
Quote
NewSpace India‏ @NewSpaceIndia

Aalto-1 a 3U Cubesat formerly on SHERPA has been shifted to PSLV http://dlvr.it/NYL6Zq

https://twitter.com/NewSpaceIndia/status/838746138920402944 (https://twitter.com/NewSpaceIndia/status/838746138920402944)

PSLV C38 is apparently the new launch.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: SmallKing on 05/01/2017 12:58 am
http://m.match.net.tw/pc/news/headline/20170428/4044192
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: rockets4life97 on 05/01/2017 01:08 am
http://m.match.net.tw/pc/news/headline/20170428/4044192

The article says the launch date is in June, but after Iridium 2 is more likely (July or later).
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: wannamoonbase on 05/30/2017 04:18 pm
3 Questions as this long awaiting flight nears:

1) Any word on whether this is going to attempt RTLS
2) If SpaceX has permission to return to VAFB
3) Will the Landing Zone will be ready for this launch?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: AncientU on 06/20/2017 07:31 pm
New article:
Quote
Formosat-5 launch imminent

Quote
Taiwan is expecting to receive SpaceX’s confirmation for the launch date imminently because according to SpaceX’s schedule, Formosat-5 must be shipped to the US at least 40 days prior to its lift-off, another source said.

When asked for comment, NARL refused to confirm or deny the launch date, but said it will inform the public via the proper channels once it receives official notification from SpaceX.

The satellite is second on SpaceX’s launch schedule from Vandenberg Air Force Base in California, after its launch later this month of Iridium NEXT satellites for Iridium Communications Inc.

Under the terms of its contract, SpaceX is allowed a six-month grace period for delays, after which it is obliged to pay 1.25 percent of the contract for each month of delays up to a maximum of eight months.

SpaceX’s six-month grace period finished in August last year.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2017/06/21/2003672985
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 06/20/2017 07:38 pm
Another quote from the article linked above:
Quote
After lifting the halt on missions this year, SpaceX informed the National Applied Research Laboratories (NARL) that Formosat-5 would launch in late August, and Taiwan should begin preparations, a source familiar with the project said.

edit: if this was a Falcon 1 launch contract I doubt SpaceX is very concerned about the monthly penalty.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: AncientU on 06/20/2017 08:12 pm
Wouldn't this be an excellent flight for SpaceX to launch one or more of its DemoSats?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 06/20/2017 08:46 pm
Wouldn't this be an excellent flight for SpaceX to launch one or more of its DemoSats?

Not sure they're ready yet.  When they said they're launching one by the end of the year I assumed that meant NET December  :)  Is there room for one SpaceX sat on the top of the Iridium stack?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ChrisGebhardt on 06/26/2017 12:00 am
Another quote from the article linked above:
Quote
After lifting the halt on missions this year, SpaceX informed the National Applied Research Laboratories (NARL) that Formosat-5 would launch in late August, and Taiwan should begin preparations, a source familiar with the project said.

edit: if this was a Falcon 1 launch contract I doubt SpaceX is very concerned about the monthly penalty.

I'd take "late-August" with a huge grain of salt.  Today there was a lot of "July" talk for this.  And Iridium has the late August slot for Iridium 21-30 on 24 August (and all of those satellites -- including the batch for 31-40 -- are all ready to go).

So this really doesn't sound right at this point for Formosat 5 in "late August."

Now, of course, this could all change.  So just writing this as a word of caution.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 06/27/2017 10:20 am
Iridium NEXT-2 article (https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/06/spacex-falcon-9-iridium-next-2-launch/) says:

Quote
The next launch from Vandenberg is currently targeting 22 July with the Republic of China’s FORMOSAT-5 spacecraft

But is that just a previously announced NET for which we're awaiting confirmation?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Chris Bergin on 06/27/2017 01:13 pm
Updated it via the L2 schedules. August 24 NET. Former Iridium NEXT-3 slot - which is now in September.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 06/28/2017 03:18 pm
FCC permit application (https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/els/reports/STA_Print.cfm?mode=current&application_seq=78679&RequestTimeout=1000) for mission 1344, which I'm guessing is Formosat-5.
Quote
This STA is necessary to authorize launch vehicle communications for SpaceX Mission 1344, a commercial launch from SLC-4E, Vandenberg Air Force Base.

First Stage Recovery permit application (https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/els/reports/STA_Print.cfm?mode=current&application_seq=78745&RequestTimeout=1000):
Quote
This STA covers the experimental first-stage recovery operation, following a Falcon 9 launch from Vandenberg Air Force Base. This request is limited to the brief command uplink from an autonomous droneship to the launch vehicle after landing.
Ship Coordinates: North 31 39 58   West 121 39 43
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: baltrum on 06/28/2017 04:08 pm
Why would they go for ASDS with such a light satellite (Formosat-5 is around half a ton)?
Are they going to include some other sats?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ZachS09 on 06/28/2017 06:37 pm
Why would they go for ASDS with such a light satellite (Formosat-5 is around half a ton)?
Are they going to include some other sats?

Because I don't think Falcon 9 is certified to do RTLS flights in Vandenberg yet.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: IanThePineapple on 06/28/2017 06:43 pm
Is it possible that they can get certification by August/September?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: docmordrid on 06/28/2017 08:42 pm
IIRC, it has to do with a possible failing RTLS aborting into the offshore Vandenberg State Marine Reserve .
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lar on 06/28/2017 09:46 pm
IIRC, it has to do with a possible failing RTLS aborting into the offshore Vandenberg State Marine Reserve .
Does that mean no RTLS ever? The marine reserve presumably isn't going anywhere.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 06/30/2017 03:15 am
Several Taiwanese news sites recently posted similar articles about Formosat-5.  They list the launch date as August 25, but I don't know if that is just the UTC time for a late launch on August 24 local time.  I won't make a change on the manifest until I get clarity on that issue.

[Taipei Times] First Taiwanese satellite to be launched Aug. 25 (http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2017/06/30/2003673593)
Quote
The 450kg Formosat-5 is the first project in which the NSPO was fully responsible for all engineering, including payload, imaging sensors and ground control systems.

The Formosat-5 is to carry the first locally made optical remote sensing instrument equipped with the world’s first space-grade metal oxide semiconductor image sensor, which the organization developed in cooperation with the nation’s electronics and semiconductor industries.

The satellite cost about NT$5.65 billion (US$186 million) to make and is to embark on a five-year observation mission around the globe
...
SpaceX is contractually required to pay 1.25 percent of the contract amount — about NT$700 million — for every month’s delay, Chang said, adding that the company is expected to pay 10 percent in compensation.

So 10% of US$23M contract would be about $2.3M penalty.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lar on 06/30/2017 04:03 am
I was trying to figure out the contract value... if 1.25% is 700M (or .7B) NT$ then isn't the contract about 56B NT$ ???

Google tells me that 1 New Taiwan Dollar equals 0.033 US Dollar ...  I get crazy numbers. but not 23M

Is it possible they have to pay 1.25% of the cost of satellite, not of the launch contract?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 06/30/2017 04:16 am
I was trying to figure out the contract value... if 1.25% is 700M (or .7B) NT$ then isn't the contract about 56B NT$ ???

Google tells me that 1 New Taiwan Dollar equals 0.033 US Dollar ...  I get crazy numbers. but not 23M

Is it possible they have to pay 1.25% of the cost of satellite, not of the launch contract?

The way I interpreted it to get sensible numbers is 700M NT$ was the total contract value. Wasn't this a Falcon 1 contract?

Also for the date issue, it's probably August 25th in Taiwan when it launches.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: SmallKing on 06/30/2017 04:48 am
Launch time: 02:50(GMT +8?) Aug 25
http://paper.wenweipo.com/2017/06/30/TW1706300002.htm (http://paper.wenweipo.com/2017/06/30/TW1706300002.htm)

EDIT: And Formosat-5 will ship to Vandenberg on July 19
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 06/30/2017 04:55 am
Launch time: 02:50(GMT +8) Aug 25
http://paper.wenweipo.com/2017/06/30/TW1706300002.htm (http://paper.wenweipo.com/2017/06/30/TW1706300002.htm)

EDIT: And Formosat-5 will ship to Vandenberg on July 19

That's 18:50 UTC/11:50 am Pacific August 24.  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: titusou on 07/03/2017 03:40 pm
First post, and yes I'm from Taiwan :)

This is Taiwan NSPO official PR annoucement:
https://www.nspo.narl.org.tw/tw2015/info/news.shtml?id=000592&hid=KBW3xMJZ8r

Launch timing as Aug25 02:50 UTC+8 (Taiwan Time).
Therefore, Aug24 18:50 UTC.

Launch profile:
(https://www.nspo.narl.org.tw/tw2015/image/projects/FORMOSAT-5/f5-6-3.jpg)
Source: https://www.nspo.narl.org.tw/tw2015/projects/FORMOSAT-5/launch-vehicle.html


Let me know if you need to know more :)
Titus
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: IanThePineapple on 07/03/2017 04:03 pm
My space OCD is going nuts, they show F9 1.0 pics, then pics of LC-40, even though they're launching on a F9 FT/B4 from Vandy

It's like "Space X"  ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: dmc6960 on 07/03/2017 04:33 pm
My space OCD is going nuts, they show F9 1.0 pics, then pics of LC-40, even though they're launching on a F9 FT/B4 from Vandy

It's like "Space X"  ;)

Its worse than that, other than the two "liftoff" photos which are Falcon 9 1.0, the other images are from the Falcon 1 days, and originally represented as such.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: IanThePineapple on 07/03/2017 04:40 pm
My space OCD is going nuts, they show F9 1.0 pics, then pics of LC-40, even though they're launching on a F9 FT/B4 from Vandy

It's like "Space X"  ;)

Its worse than that, other than the two "liftoff" photos which are Falcon 9 1.0, the other images are from the Falcon 1 days, and originally represented as such.

Oh, I thought those were just poorly-made pics of a Falcon 9.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 07/03/2017 05:28 pm
The National Space Organization PR staff needs to study up on NSF, then apply the knowledge gained to their press releases! :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ZachS09 on 07/03/2017 06:06 pm
If titusou's "launch profile" is correct, then the ASDS would have to be further south. That's because the MECO time is listed as T+2:32.

Previous Falcon 9 v1.2 launches from Vandenberg, that ended up on the drone ship, shut down the booster at T+2:24.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 07/03/2017 08:41 pm
If titusou's "launch profile" is correct, then the ASDS would have to be further south. That's because the MECO time is listed as T+2:32.

Previous Falcon 9 v1.2 launches from Vandenberg, that ended up on the drone ship, shut down the booster at T+2:24.

FORMOSAT 5 is listed as only massing 525 kg, less than 1/10th of the 10x Iridium Next satellites + payload dispenser.  I suspect (don't know--NSF experts, correct me if I'm wrong) that could change the launch timeline and trajectory of the first stage, both for boost to MECO and barge recovery.

I suppose we'll learn more on these matters when the Notices to Airmen and Mariners are released.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: titusou on 07/04/2017 01:42 pm
I'm seeing 2 different mass info regarding Formosat-5...

475kg <- from Taiwan NSPO website
525kg <- mostly from 2010~2015 report

I let you know if I find out :)

Titus
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Eagandale4114 on 07/04/2017 06:34 pm
I'm seeing 2 different mass info regarding Formosat-5...

475kg <- from Taiwan NSPO website
525kg <- mostly from 2010~2015 report

I let you know if I find out :)

Titus

Could the two weights be the dry and wet weights for the satellite?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Tomness on 07/05/2017 05:36 pm
Did this mission originally have the Sherpa payload? They still not able to launch the rest of the small sats  on this mission?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: old_sellsword on 07/05/2017 05:38 pm
Did this mission originally have the Sherpa payload? They still not able to launch the rest of the small sats  on this mission?

Spaceflight has already rebooked all the SHERPA passengers on other launches.

http://spacenews.com/spacex-delays-force-spaceflight-to-find-alternative-launches/
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: smfarmer11 on 07/06/2017 06:31 am
So is this satellite flying solo? If so that seems a terrible waste.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: shooter6947 on 07/06/2017 08:23 pm
Does anyone know what the holdup is for RTLS landings at Vandenberg?  This launch should be capable of it if any would be.  Is it hardware, or paperwork, or what?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ZachS09 on 07/06/2017 08:59 pm
So is this satellite flying solo? If so that seems a terrible waste.

Why would it be a terrible waste for a ~500 kg payload to fly solo on Falcon 9? It's better than nothing at all.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: wannamoonbase on 07/06/2017 09:07 pm
So is this satellite flying solo? If so that seems a terrible waste.

Why would it be a terrible waste for a ~500 kg payload to fly solo on Falcon 9? It's better than nothing at all.

Agreed, SpaceX doesn't seem to have a problem with it, and they will be recovering the booster. 

Just working their way through the manifest!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: acsawdey on 07/06/2017 09:07 pm
Does anyone know what the holdup is for RTLS landings at Vandenberg?  This launch should be capable of it if any would be.  Is it hardware, or paperwork, or what?

I think the last paperwork I found was this:

Looks like SpaceX has now got the all-clear to do both ASDS and RTLS from SLC-4W at Vandenberg AFB. Or, at least they've cleared the environmental hurdles and can now ask FAA for licenses to do so.

Quote
After reviewing and analyzing available data and information on existing conditions and potential
impacts, including the 2016 EA, the FAA has determined the issuance of licenses to SpaceX to conduct
Falcon 9 boost-backs and landings at SLC-4W or on a barge would not significantly affect the quality of
the human environment within the meaning of NEPA. Therefore, the preparation of an environmental
impact statement is not required, and the FAA is independently issuing this FONSI. The FAA has made
this determination in accordance with applicable environmental laws and FAA regulations. The 2016 EA
is incorporated by reference into this FONSI.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ast/licenses_permits/media/ea_fonsi_f9_boostback_vafb.pdf (https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ast/licenses_permits/media/ea_fonsi_f9_boostback_vafb.pdf)

Jim then suggested they still need USAF approval, but I don't know what other agencies may also be involved.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: solartear on 07/06/2017 09:46 pm
So is this satellite flying solo? If so that seems a terrible waste.

Seems to me like a great opportunity for SpaceX second stage re-entry experiments.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: AncientU on 07/07/2017 12:10 pm
So is this satellite flying solo? If so that seems a terrible waste.

Seems to me like a great opportunity for SpaceX second stage re-entry experiments.

Or fly a couple demo sats for ConnX
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 07/07/2017 09:44 pm
So is this satellite flying solo? If so that seems a terrible waste.

Seems to me like a great opportunity for SpaceX second stage re-entry experiments.

Or fly a couple demo sats for ConnX

Not without FCC approval. ;)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: titusou on 07/12/2017 03:14 pm
I'm seeing 2 different mass info regarding Formosat-5...

475kg <- from Taiwan NSPO website
525kg <- mostly from 2010~2015 report

I let you know if I find out :)

Titus

Could the two weights be the dry and wet weights for the satellite?

Confirmed with NSPO:
525kg was original plan mass
475kg is the launch mission mass

This probably the lightest mission for any Falcon9 flight ever?


Titus
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Skyrocket on 07/12/2017 03:34 pm
I'm seeing 2 different mass info regarding Formosat-5...

475kg <- from Taiwan NSPO website
525kg <- mostly from 2010~2015 report

I let you know if I find out :)

Titus

Could the two weights be the dry and wet weights for the satellite?

Confirmed with NSPO:
525kg was original plan mass
475kg is the launch mission mass

This probably the lightest mission for any Falcon9 flight ever?


Titus

NASA's TESS will be even lighter with only 350 kg, but it will launch into a highly elliptical orbit reaching out to 59 earth radii.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: whitelancer64 on 07/12/2017 03:52 pm
TESS is tiny.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Skyrocket on 07/12/2017 04:02 pm
TESS is tiny.

The point for launching tiny TESS on a F9 is, that an off-the-shelve F9 can launch it to its unique orbit, while other smaller launchers would need a mission specific upper stage, which would raise the cost.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: abaddon on 07/12/2017 04:35 pm
Cassiope was 500kg and 180x125 cm, so in the ballpark.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: IanThePineapple on 07/12/2017 04:51 pm
Well, CASSIOPE was to be launched on a Falcon 1, but with the F1 cancellation it was moved to a F9.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: IanThePineapple on 07/12/2017 04:52 pm
Does anyone know what the holdup is for RTLS landings at Vandenberg?  This launch should be capable of it if any would be.  Is it hardware, or paperwork, or what?

I'm pretty sure LZ-2 is close to completion or is completion, but FAA permits are the main factor I think.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: abaddon on 07/12/2017 05:11 pm
Well, CASSIOPE was to be launched on a Falcon 1, but with the F1 cancellation it was moved to a F9.
Exactly, same (almost certainly) as Formosat: http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=0b263a34-442d-4cab-b38a-108193a6f93e.

SpaceX doesn't seem to ever have specified a launch vehicle, but when the contract was announced it was stated as launching from Kwajalein.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: IanThePineapple on 07/12/2017 05:39 pm
I'm pretty sure it was to be a F1
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mme on 07/12/2017 05:51 pm
Does anyone know what the holdup is for RTLS landings at Vandenberg?  This launch should be capable of it if any would be.  Is it hardware, or paperwork, or what?

I'm pretty sure LZ-2 is close to completion or is completion, but FAA permits are the main factor I think.
The problem is not the FAA. They didn't prevent using LZ-1 on the east coast.  They aren't preventing using LZ-2 on the west cost. We don't know what the hold up is or if there is even a hold up.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ast/licenses_permits/media/ea_fonsi_f9_boostback_vafb.pdf (https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ast/licenses_permits/media/ea_fonsi_f9_boostback_vafb.pdf)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Jos on 07/12/2017 05:58 pm
Will this be the first flight of the Block 4 Falcon 9?  This article mentions that the X-37B mission will be the second Block 4:
https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/06/bulgariasat-launch-spacex-secures-x-37b-contract/

Would make sense to launch a small payload on the first Block 4. Both the first launch of the v1.1 (Cassiope) and the v1.2 (Orbcomm) were payloads that were originally contracted for Falcon 1.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Jim on 07/12/2017 06:14 pm
Does anyone know what the holdup is for RTLS landings at Vandenberg?  This launch should be capable of it if any would be.  Is it hardware, or paperwork, or what?

I'm pretty sure LZ-2 is close to completion or is completion, but FAA permits are the main factor I think.

What is LZ-2?

The only other landing pad is SLC-4W.   
facility naming nomenclature does not apply to both coasts. 

The west coast landing pad could be called LZ-1
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: deruch on 07/14/2017 10:28 pm

Confirmed with NSPO:
525kg was original plan mass
475kg is the launch mission mass

This probably the lightest mission for any Falcon9 flight ever?


DSCOVR was also really small, ~570 kg at launch. 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: SmallKing on 07/15/2017 01:07 pm
Quote
First Taiwan-developed satellite to launch on July 25
The satellite was shipped to the U.S. Saturday (will be shipped to Vandenberg on 19 July)and will undergo its final testing before being launched by SpaceX's Falcon 9 on July 25(August 25) (Taiwan Time).
By Teng Pei-ju,Taiwan News, Staff Writer

TAIPEI (Taiwan News) — FORMOSAT-5 (福爾摩沙衛星五號), the first entirely domestically developed satellite operated by Taiwan’s National Space Organization (NSPO,國家太空中心) was packaged to be shipped to the U.S. Saturday for the launch by Space X’s Falcon 9 rocket August 25 (Taiwan Time) in California, reports said.
http://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3211453 (http://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3211453)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Jarnis on 07/15/2017 01:17 pm
Confusing. Is this July or August?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: SmallKing on 07/15/2017 01:22 pm
Quote
First Taiwan-developed satellite to launch on July 25
The satellite was shipped to the U.S. Saturday (will be shipped to Vandenberg on 19 July)and will undergo its final testing before being launched by SpaceX's Falcon 9 on July 25(August 25) (Taiwan Time).
By Teng Pei-ju,Taiwan News, Staff Writer

TAIPEI (Taiwan News) — FORMOSAT-5 (福爾摩沙衛星五號), the first entirely domestically developed satellite operated by Taiwan’s National Space Organization (NSPO,國家太空中心) was packaged to be shipped to the U.S. Saturday for the launch by Space X’s Falcon 9 rocket August 25 (Taiwan Time) in California, reports said.
http://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3211453 (http://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3211453)
More images
From http://www.nspo.narl.org.tw/tw2015/info/news.shtml?id=000595&hid=7gPRRdiKsN (http://www.nspo.narl.org.tw/tw2015/info/news.shtml?id=000595&hid=7gPRRdiKsN)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: SmallKing on 07/15/2017 01:24 pm
Confusing. Is this July or August?
Definitely August, just typo ;D
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: titusou on 07/18/2017 03:34 pm
Shipout ceremony is July19 10:30 UTC+8.

Titus
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Chris Bergin on 07/18/2017 09:42 pm
Part of the media accreditation notice:

HAWTHORNE, Calif. – July 18, 2017. Media accreditation is now open for SpaceX's FORMOSAT-5 mission from Space Launch Complex 4 East (SLC-4E) at Vandenberg Air Force Base in California. The launch is targeted for no earlier than August 24.

SpaceX’s Falcon 9 will deliver FORMOSAT-5 to a low-Earth orbit (LEO).
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: SmallKing on 07/19/2017 05:12 am
FORMOSAT-5 is on its way to vandenberg

https://udn.com/news/story/7266/2591950 (https://udn.com/news/story/7266/2591950)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lars-J on 07/19/2017 05:24 am
The size of Formosat-5 inside the fairing... (Formosat is the item in blue)

Source: https://twitter.com/ain92ru/status/887449318608785409
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: soltasto on 07/19/2017 09:17 am
Can someone ask SpaceX or NASA if ELaNa XIII is flying on this mission as scheduled or not? It is still present here (https://www.nasa.gov/content/upcoming-elana-cubesat-launches).

ELaNa XIII
Date:  TBD
Mission:  FORMOSAT-5 – Falcon 9, Vandenberg Air Force Base, Calif.
2 CubeSat Missions scheduled to be deployed

ISARA – Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif.
EcAMSat – NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, Calif.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: titusou on 07/19/2017 10:01 am
I was at shipout ceremony this morning, a few thing might interest you:

Original launch plan (2010) is indeed using Falcon1e
700M NTD launch cost is what it costed for Falcon1e
1.25% per month delay penalty is based on 700M NTD launch cost

Titus
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 07/19/2017 11:18 am
I was at shipout ceremony this morning, a few thing might interest you:

Original launch plan (2010) is indeed using Falcon1e
700M NTD launch cost is what it costed for Falcon1e
1.25% per month delay penalty is based on 700M NTD launch cost

Titus

Thanks for posting.

At current exchange rate 700M NTD is about 23M USD. When the contract was announced in 2010, December 2013 was the suggested launch date. IIRC date moved to late 2015 due to delays in payload?

Also aren't delay penalties often capped at a certain number of months (eg a year?)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: SmallKing on 07/19/2017 11:52 am
I was at shipout ceremony this morning, a few thing might interest you:

Original launch plan (2010) is indeed using Falcon1e
700M NTD launch cost is what it costed for Falcon1e
1.25% per month delay penalty is based on 700M NTD launch cost

Titus

Thanks for posting.

At current exchange rate 700M NTD is about 23M USD. When the contract was announced in 2010, December 2013 was the suggested launch date. IIRC date moved to late 2015 due to delays in payload?

Also aren't delay penalties often capped at a certain number of months (eg a year?)

Quote
SpaceX is contractually required to pay 1.25 percent of the contract amount — about NT$700 million — for every month’s delay, Chang said, adding that the company is expected to pay 10 percent in compensation.
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2017/06/30/2003673593
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: titusou on 07/19/2017 02:32 pm
I was at shipout ceremony this morning, a few thing might interest you:

Original launch plan (2010) is indeed using Falcon1e
700M NTD launch cost is what it costed for Falcon1e
1.25% per month delay penalty is based on 700M NTD launch cost

Titus

Thanks for posting.

At current exchange rate 700M NTD is about 23M USD. When the contract was announced in 2010, December 2013 was the suggested launch date. IIRC date moved to late 2015 due to delays in payload?

Also aren't delay penalties often capped at a certain number of months (eg a year?)

Back in 2010, the original planned launch date was Dec,2013.
(Source: http://www.spacex.com/press/2012/12/19/spacex-and-national-space-organization-nspo-sign-contract-launch)

According to director, the penalty is capped as 10%.

Titus
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Chris Bergin on 08/14/2017 09:12 pm
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
From: 30th Space Wing Public Affairs, www.vandenberg.af.mil
Falcon 9 scheduled to launch

VANDENBERG AIR FORCE BASE, Calif. - Team Vandenberg is scheduled to launch
the FORMOSAT-5 satellite on a SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket from Space Launch
Complex-4 here Thursday, Aug. 24, between 11:50 a.m. and 12:34 p.m. PDT.

Col. Gregory E. Wood , 30th Space Wing vice commander, will be the launch
safety authority.

"We are proud to provide a safe and secure launch location for our mission
partners," said Wood. "This mission is the practical demonstration of the
professional spirit and teamwork found in the everyday operations of Team
Vandenberg and SpaceX."

For questions about the booster please contact John Taylor, SpaceX
communications director

The local community can view this launch from the Hawk's Nest on Hwy 1 south
of Vandenberg Air Force Base's main gate. Gate opens at 10:30 a.m. and
closes at 11:40 a.m. As a reminder the public is asked not to bring or
consume alcohol, smoke, nor have any open fires or barbeques. Weapons are
not allowed, additionally, the use of small unmanned aerial systems within
five miles of any active runway is prohibited.

- 30 -
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Michael Baylor on 08/19/2017 11:28 pm
Regarding the fire at Vandenberg right now...

With the time and location this is either an incredible coincidence or F9 being naughty. Being someone who lives in California, what I can say is that I am not the least surprised. We have very dry summers here. The grass hills (including the ones near Vandenberg) are great for starting fires. California gets almost all it's rain in the winter. So the grass goes bone dry in the summer, becoming a golden brown color. This is why we are sometimes called "The Golden State."  :P

I suppose the crews were prepared for this, however fires from launches can start quite a bit of away from the pad. Just look at this photo from yesterday's Atlas V launch in Florida. This small fire was a huge distance from the pad. It's well beyond the ULA assembly building, which is already a decent distance. Seems very possible that due to the large radius for a potential ignition, combined with the perfect environmental factors that a wildfire managed to get going.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: titusou on 08/23/2017 01:01 pm
HYDROPAC 2814/2017 (29,76,83) 
SOUTH PACIFIC.
DNC 06, DNC 29.
1. HAZARDOUS OPERATIONS 2046Z TO 2154Z DAILY
   24 THRU 27 AUG IN AREA BOUND BY
   25-49S 161-58W, 25-49S 156-56W,
   62-04S 168-58W, 62-02S 178-36W.
2. CANCEL THIS MSG 272254Z AUG 17.

-----

Launch is planned as Aug24 1850 UTC

And stage2 hazard zone starting on Aug24 2046 UTC to 2154 UTC (daily till Aug27).
I assume that means stage2 is planned for re-entry +116mins ~ +184mins ?

Based on NSPO chart, Formosat5 planned separation on +66.5mins at 723km alt (circular orbit?).

So... 50mins after separation = beginning of stage2 re-entry hazard warning

A simple de-orbit burn or something else?


A nice image made by Paul is here to show stage2 hazard zone:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43396.msg1714946#msg1714946


Titus
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Norm38 on 08/23/2017 01:58 pm
^^^Payload is 475kg and booster is landing at sea.  If they are going to do S2 reuse experiments, they won't get more mass to work with than this. (FH demo excepted)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lar on 08/23/2017 02:13 pm
^^^Payload is 475kg and booster is landing at sea.  If they are going to do S2 reuse experiments, they won't get more mass to work with than this. (FH demo excepted)
Good point. The only question is, were they ready to try things? The short S2 debris window time (if I am interpreting that correctly) after launch suggests maybe not, just a straight deorbit?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: stcks on 08/23/2017 02:20 pm
Based on NSPO chart, Formosat5 planned separation on +66.5mins at 723km alt (circular orbit?).

Are you referring to your previous post regarding the chart? http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=21984.msg1698438#msg1698438

If so, that doesn't match the press kit which shows a single second stage burn and deployment at +11:18. I'd bet that chart is quite old.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: titusou on 08/23/2017 03:51 pm
Based on NSPO chart, Formosat5 planned separation on +66.5mins at 723km alt (circular orbit?).

Are you referring to your previous post regarding the chart? http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=21984.msg1698438#msg1698438

If so, that doesn't match the press kit which shows a single second stage burn and deployment at +11:18. I'd bet that chart is quite old.
Could be, that chart been on NSPO website quite long time already.

Eitherway, we are looking at +116mins ~ +184mins stage2 hazard zone warning window... I just wonder if it's straight de-orbit or something else...

Titus
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 08/24/2017 09:51 am
Are the five stars on the mission patch for successful west coast launches?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: SmallKing on 08/24/2017 09:57 am
Are the five stars on the mission patch for successful west coast launches?
Formosat-5
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: SciNews on 08/24/2017 10:04 am
SpaceX Formosat-5 mission: Falcon 9 static fire test https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYSoosLJ5OE
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: SmallKing on 08/24/2017 10:04 am
Interesting to note Taiwan's flag was not decal'd on the fairing, just the name.
It's a political issue about One-China policy
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ZachS09 on 08/24/2017 01:50 pm
Why, according to the press kit, is there not a boostback burn event listed?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: nukie19 on 08/24/2017 01:54 pm
Why, according to the press kit, is there not a boostback burn event listed?

Because there isn't a boostback burn.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: cppetrie on 08/24/2017 01:55 pm
Why, according to the press kit, is there not a boostback burn event listed?
No RTLS. Downrange landing on ASDS. So no need for boostback burn.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: old_sellsword on 08/24/2017 02:00 pm
Why, according to the press kit, is there not a boostback burn event listed?
No RTLS. Downrange landing on ASDS. So no need for boostback burn.

The Iridium landings have boostback burns and they’re ASDS landings as well. But maybe that’s a misnomer because they’re less “boostback” burns and more “limiting downrange distance” burns.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Joffan on 08/24/2017 02:00 pm
Why, according to the press kit, is there not a boostback burn event listed?
No RTLS. Downrange landing on ASDS. So no need for boostback burn.
It's still a little surprising to me that there is no burn after separation, for targeting. You can't assume that the launch will hit nominal separation conditions. Perhaps there is more cross-range ability on the re-entry burn than I thought.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Jarnis on 08/24/2017 02:24 pm
Why, according to the press kit, is there not a boostback burn event listed?
No RTLS. Downrange landing on ASDS. So no need for boostback burn.
It's still a little surprising to me that there is no burn after separation, for targeting. You can't assume that the launch will hit nominal separation conditions. Perhaps there is more cross-range ability on the re-entry burn than I thought.

Guess the trajectory is a really high lob, which would match the reported single-burn direct insertion to 700km-ish orbit.

So it directly falls to the ASDS location without a boostback burn. Re-entry burn will probably be longer then?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 08/24/2017 02:26 pm
I guess the FAA will get around to posting the launch license on their site sometime in the next month or so.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: bsegal on 08/24/2017 02:43 pm
Apologies since I know this has been addressed before and elsewhere, but I'm not recalling why there isn't yet an on-shore landing zone that's available at Vandenburg instead of needing the drone ship?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 08/24/2017 02:48 pm
Apologies since I know this has been addressed before and elsewhere, but I'm not recalling why there isn't yet an on-shore landing zone that's available at Vandenburg instead of needing the drone ship?

Not 100% clear but likely still waiting on final approval from the Western Range, for whatever internal reasons they have. There are L2 photos that show it essentially complete except for painting, as well as a bit more info (but not much). (PLUG, PLUG - L2 membership is worth it, even if not for this tiny bit of non-info, lol!)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: oldAtlas_Eguy on 08/24/2017 04:21 pm
Thanks Chris for the picture on the Updates thread. A BTW that's the VAFB "security blanket" (old VAFB space hand joke about the almost ever present heavy marine layer).
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: StuffOfInterest on 08/24/2017 04:39 pm
What times do the launch window open and close?  The opening time is usually in the update thread title, but appears to be currently missing.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: vanoord on 08/24/2017 04:41 pm
From SpaceX on Facebook:

Quote
Falcon 9 and FORMOSAT-5 are vertical on Space Launch Complex 4 East (SLC-4E) at Vandenberg Air Force Base in California. Weather is 90% favorable for today’s 42-minute launch window which opens at 11:51 a.m. PDT, or 18:51 UTC.

Following stage separation, Falcon 9’s first stage will attempt a landing on the “Just Read the Instructions” droneship stationed in the Pacific Ocean. Launch webcast will go live about 15 minutes before liftoff → spacex.com/webcast

The window seems to open a minute later than previously advertised.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: whitelancer64 on 08/24/2017 04:52 pm
Apologies since I know this has been addressed before and elsewhere, but I'm not recalling why there isn't yet an on-shore landing zone that's available at Vandenburg instead of needing the drone ship?

There is. SpaceX has built a landing pad right next to SLC-4E, at the former SLC-4W.

It is not yet approved for use, IIRC it is currently under environmental review.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: king1999 on 08/24/2017 04:57 pm
This article implied that they are trying to recover the fairing for this mission:

https://www.wired.com/story/spacex-will-lose-millions-on-its-taiwanese-satellite-launch/

Quote
The loss-leading mission puts all the more pressure on SpaceX’s strategy of reusability. SpaceX indicated it will also attempt to recover the rocket’s payload fairing––that encapsulates the satellite––during takeoff, which is worth around $6 million. Elon Musk says that a factory fresh Falcon 9 booster accounts for 70 percent of the $37 million in direct launch costs which totals to around $26 million. If SpaceX can reuse that booster enough times to pay for itself, the long-term loss from Formosat-5 will not be as significant.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: schaban on 08/24/2017 05:30 pm
I think boost back is missing so JRTI and it support ships will be close to fairing and perhaps even participate in recovery effort?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ZachF on 08/24/2017 05:47 pm
What times do the launch window open and close?  The opening time is usually in the update thread title, but appears to be currently missing.

It launches about an hour from now.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Skylab on 08/24/2017 05:49 pm
I think boost back is missing so JRTI and it support ships will be close to fairing and perhaps even participate in recovery effort?
There is no boost back if you don't intend to land near/at your launch site.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lars-J on 08/24/2017 05:59 pm
I think boost back is missing so JRTI and it support ships will be close to fairing and perhaps even participate in recovery effort?
There is no boost back if you don't intend to land near/at your launch site.

Sometimes they do a burn to target the ship, if the ship is not roughly where a ballistic trajectory will take the stage. Think of the boost back burn as a landing spot targeting burn, it isn't always back to the launch site.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Skylab on 08/24/2017 06:03 pm
I think boost back is missing so JRTI and it support ships will be close to fairing and perhaps even participate in recovery effort?
There is no boost back if you don't intend to land near/at your launch site.

Sometimes they do a burn to target the ship, if the ship is not roughly where a ballistic trajectory will take the stage. Think of the boost back burn as a landing spot targeting burn, it isn't always back to the launch site.
I don't want to get into semantics, but isn't that variant included in the entry burn? Boostback to me always seemed like the literal meaning.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: envy887 on 08/24/2017 06:10 pm
I think boost back is missing so JRTI and it support ships will be close to fairing and perhaps even participate in recovery effort?
There is no boost back if you don't intend to land near/at your launch site.

Sometimes they do a burn to target the ship, if the ship is not roughly where a ballistic trajectory will take the stage. Think of the boost back burn as a landing spot targeting burn, it isn't always back to the launch site.
I don't want to get into semantics, but isn't that variant included in the entry burn? Boostback to me always seemed like the literal meaning.

No. Iridium Flight 2 had bad weather near the original landing zone, so they moved the ship significantly away. The booster had to do a boostback burn to target the new landing location.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Skylab on 08/24/2017 06:13 pm
No. Iridium Flight 2 had bad weather near the original landing zone, so they moved the ship significantly away. The booster had to do a boostback burn to target the new landing location.
Right, I remember the new position, just never realised that was a boostback. Thanks!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lars-J on 08/24/2017 06:16 pm
Sometimes they do a burn to target the ship, if the ship is not roughly where a ballistic trajectory will take the stage. Think of the boost back burn as a landing spot targeting burn, it isn't always back to the launch site.
I don't want to get into semantics, but isn't that variant included in the entry burn? Boostback to me always seemed like the literal meaning.

The "boost-back" and landing burns help to narrow the landing point, but the "boost-back" burn (if done) does the vast majority of aiming. The entry burn is just there to reduce velocity to avoid breaking up in the thicker atmosphere. And as envy887 states, the boost-back burn could be a sideways burn - or even forward, it all depends where the landing barge is placed.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Skylab on 08/24/2017 06:21 pm
Sometimes they do a burn to target the ship, if the ship is not roughly where a ballistic trajectory will take the stage. Think of the boost back burn as a landing spot targeting burn, it isn't always back to the launch site.
I don't want to get into semantics, but isn't that variant included in the entry burn? Boostback to me always seemed like the literal meaning.

The "boost-back" and landing burns help to narrow the landing point, but the "boost-back" burn (if done) does the vast majority of aiming. The entry burn is just there to reduce velocity to avoid breaking up in the thicker atmosphere. And as envy887 states, the boost-back burn could be a sideways burn - or even forward, it all depends where the landing barge is placed.
Understood. Bit of a misnomer then, but I understand you can hardly describe every situation with a few labels. Right, will stay quiet hoping for a good launch in about half an hour!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ChrisC on 08/24/2017 06:29 pm
Watching the countdown to coverage start on SpaceX's video feed, I'm wondering ... For most launches in the past, their coverage started at precisely T-20 minutes.  Last time with CRS-12, though, it start later in the count, at T-13.  Let's see when this one starts.

EDIT: slate / music started at around T-20

EDIT: coverage started at around T-12; cheated down even more :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mrhuggy on 08/24/2017 06:47 pm
Nice lunch time rocket launch but it sounds like its been done from the cafeteria.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: sanman on 08/24/2017 06:49 pm
The "boost-back" and landing burns help to narrow the landing point, but the "boost-back" burn (if done) does the vast majority of aiming. The entry burn is just there to reduce velocity to avoid breaking up in the thicker atmosphere. And as envy887 states, the boost-back burn could be a sideways burn - or even forward, it all depends where the landing barge is placed.

Don't the waffleIrons/gridFins/X-wings do some aiming too, during atmospheric descent?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lars-J on 08/24/2017 06:58 pm
Wow, this is a lofted trajectory, more than I was expected... 435km up and counting, and only now is it starting to burn horizontally.

EDIT: And now above 600km, burning downwards to circularize.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: sghill on 08/24/2017 07:04 pm
Does that landing leg look right to you guys?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: whitelancer64 on 08/24/2017 07:05 pm
Does that landing leg look right to you guys?

I don't see anything wrong with it?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lars-J on 08/24/2017 07:10 pm
Does that landing leg look right to you guys?

It looks fine to me... Perhaps you can tell us what you see?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: chrisking0997 on 08/24/2017 07:10 pm
Does that landing leg look right to you guys?

I don't see anything wrong with it?

I dont either, but I am starting to think they should repaint the droneship names in the opposite direction
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Michael Baylor on 08/24/2017 07:13 pm
SpaceX's biggest challenge now is not getting too complacent. It's almost scary how routine everything feels.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lar on 08/24/2017 07:14 pm
... I am starting to think they should repaint the droneship names in the opposite direction

you mean mirrored? upside down? if THAT'S their biggest worry all is pretty awesome!
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: TrueBlueWitt on 08/24/2017 07:16 pm
Do we know why it looks like they've gone back to the coated AL grid fins?

From what little we got to see.. it looked like Landing with the new Ti ones had some issues... too much drag?  Don't think they ever released video for that one.

Any idea when and if they resurface?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 08/24/2017 07:16 pm
Thanks LC-39A and 4E; welcome back 40... join the party.

The OTV-5 (X-37B) Launch is going from LC-39A, LC-40 wont be up and running until the next launch from the east coast.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gospacex on 08/24/2017 07:18 pm
Even if SpaceX will have no more successful launches this year, they launched more than Arianespace this year: Ariane only has 11 launches (8 done, 3 yet to perform).
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: old_sellsword on 08/24/2017 07:19 pm
Do we know why it looks like they've gone back to the coated AL grid fins?

From what little we got to see.. it looked like Landing with the new Ti ones had some issues... too much drag?  Don't think they ever released video for that one.

Any idea when and if they resurface?

The probably have a backlog of old fins and are using them on low-energy missions instead of throwing them away.

They need the Titanium fins for FH, we’ll definitely see them again.

This isn’t so much them “going back” to the old fins, it’s more that they introduced the new ones before they were out of old ones.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Norm38 on 08/24/2017 07:22 pm
It's a "use to depletion" cutover. Happens all the time.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Pulpstar on 08/24/2017 07:25 pm
Seemed like the highest duration flight time for a first stage yet. Release high up or with alot of vertical velocity ?

Checking against https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FU0l2JHhGs the entry burn started when the others were landing (It was longer than the longest one from that particular montage) !
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: c3infinity on 08/24/2017 07:26 pm
Passing the 5-minute mark now.

First stage should have passed its apogee by now.

Still looks like it is going up... apogee soon, but probably about twice as high as "normal" LEO or GTO launch. Very lofted trajectory.

From my semi-local vantage point, it very much appeared to go straight up until first stage cutoff when I lost track in the bright sky. I was not able to pick out the re-entry burn.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Michael Baylor on 08/24/2017 07:26 pm
Even if SpaceX will have no more successful launches this year, they launched more than Arianespace this year: Ariane only has 11 launches (8 done, 3 yet to perform).
1. Ariane can do two missions in one launch with the Ariane 5 dual payload capability.
2. If SpaceX had no more successful launches this year, customer satisfaction would be down for SpaceX and up for Ariane.

20-22 successful missions this year would be a huge win for SpaceX, but lets not get excited until that's accomplished.  ???
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: russianhalo117 on 08/24/2017 07:34 pm
Even if SpaceX will have no more successful launches this year, they launched more than Arianespace this year: Ariane only has 11 launches (8 done, 3 yet to perform).
1. Ariane can do two missions in one launch with the Ariane 5 dual payload capability.
2. If SpaceX had no more successful launches this year, customer satisfaction would be down for SpaceX and up for Ariane.

20-22 successful missions this year would be a huge win for SpaceX, but lets not get excited until they are there yet.  ???
F9 can do dual and missions but not at the same mass and injection orbit, but F9 Block-5 and FH out perform A5-ECA with ample room for even higher M-1D thrust uprating and throttle range if SpaceX ever wanted to.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: AncientU on 08/24/2017 07:35 pm
Even if SpaceX will have no more successful launches this year, they launched more than Arianespace this year: Ariane only has 11 launches (8 done, 3 yet to perform).

2017 versus the main competition launchers: Ariane 5(4) + Atlas V(4) + Delta IV(1) + Proton(2) < Falcon 9(12)

Note:
Landed Boosters: Ariane 5(0) + Atlas V(0) + Delta IV(0) + Proton(0) < Falcon 9(9)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: macpacheco on 08/24/2017 07:35 pm
Do we know why it looks like they've gone back to the coated AL grid fins?

From what little we got to see.. it looked like Landing with the new Ti ones had some issues... too much drag?  Don't think they ever released video for that one.

Any idea when and if they resurface?
They will probably use / reuse the AL fins on low energy flights until they're all too worn out, then move to all Titanium fins.
Given the fairly low % of LEO flights, this could go on until 2019.

We could see Block IV and Block V launches with old grid thins for a while.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: envy887 on 08/24/2017 07:38 pm
Even if SpaceX will have no more successful launches this year, they launched more than Arianespace this year: Ariane only has 11 launches (8 done, 3 yet to perform).
1. Ariane can do two missions in one launch with the Ariane 5 dual payload capability.
2. If SpaceX had no more successful launches this year, customer satisfaction would be down for SpaceX and up for Ariane.

20-22 successful missions this year would be a huge win for SpaceX, but lets not get excited until they are there yet.  ???
F9 can do dual and missions but not at the same mass and injection orbit, but F9 Block-5 and FH out perform A5-ECA with ample room for even higher M-1D thrust uprating and throttle range if SpaceX ever wanted to.

FH>A5>F9 Blk 5, at least for GTO where most of the commercial money is right now.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: sghill on 08/24/2017 07:41 pm
Does that landing leg look right to you guys?

It looks fine to me... Perhaps you can tell us what you see?

I guess it's the camera parallax on that right leg.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: M.E.T. on 08/24/2017 07:43 pm
Even if SpaceX will have no more successful launches this year, they launched more than Arianespace this year: Ariane only has 11 launches (8 done, 3 yet to perform).
1. Ariane can do two missions in one launch with the Ariane 5 dual payload capability.
2. If SpaceX had no more successful launches this year, customer satisfaction would be down for SpaceX and up for Ariane.

20-22 successful missions this year would be a huge win for SpaceX, but lets not get excited until they are there yet.  ???
F9 can do dual and missions but not at the same mass and injection orbit, but F9 Block-5 and FH out perform A5-ECA with ample room for even higher M-1D thrust uprating and throttle range if SpaceX ever wanted to.

FH>A5>F9 Blk 5, at least for GTO where most of the commercial money is right now.

Are you referring to reusable F9 Block 5? Because on Wikipedia Arriane 5's stated GTO payload capability is around 10500kg, whereas the expendable F9 Block 5 is supposed to achieve around 13000kg to GTO if I'm not mistaken.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ZachS09 on 08/24/2017 07:44 pm
M.E.T., the 13k to GTO for Falcon 9 Block 5 applies to the expendable version.

A bunch of performance is taken away for the reusable version.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: tvg98 on 08/24/2017 07:45 pm
Even if SpaceX will have no more successful launches this year, they launched more than Arianespace this year: Ariane only has 11 launches (8 done, 3 yet to perform).
1. Ariane can do two missions in one launch with the Ariane 5 dual payload capability.
2. If SpaceX had no more successful launches this year, customer satisfaction would be down for SpaceX and up for Ariane.

20-22 successful missions this year would be a huge win for SpaceX, but lets not get excited until they are there yet.  ???
F9 can do dual and missions but not at the same mass and injection orbit, but F9 Block-5 and FH out perform A5-ECA with ample room for even higher M-1D thrust uprating and throttle range if SpaceX ever wanted to.

FH>A5>F9 Blk 5, at least for GTO where most of the commercial money is right now.

Are you referring to reusable F9 Block 5? Because on Wikipedia Arriane 5's stated GTO payload capability is around 10500kg, whereas the expendable F9 Block 5 is supposed to achieve around 13000kg to GTO if I'm not mistaken.

I'm pretty sure it's actually 8300 kg, especially since I don't see how they can double their performance with Block 5 (in its reusable form of course).
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: abaddon on 08/24/2017 07:46 pm
The expendable F9 B5 is supposed to be a bit over 8 tonnes to GTO, as per SpaceX's own website.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: M.E.T. on 08/24/2017 07:47 pm
M.E.T., the 13k to GTO for Falcon 9 Block 5 applies to the expendable version.

A bunch of performance is taken away for the reusable version.

Sorry, I wasn't clear with my question. I'm well aware of that. I was querying why Arriane 5 (which is also expendable) is stated to be able to lift more to GTO than the F9 Block 5. Unless the F9 Block 5 referred to is the reusable version.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: M.E.T. on 08/24/2017 07:48 pm
The expendable F9 B5 is supposed to be a bit over 8 tonnes to GTO, as per SpaceX's own website.

Ah, sorry. I think I mixed it up with the FH payload to Mars. That explains it.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: BackflipFromOrbit on 08/24/2017 08:05 pm
Any word on faring recovery?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gospacex on 08/24/2017 08:10 pm
Even if SpaceX will have no more successful launches this year, they launched more than Arianespace this year: Ariane only has 11 launches (8 done, 3 yet to perform).
1. Ariane can do two missions in one launch with the Ariane 5 dual payload capability.

Except that 4 out of 8 "Ariane" missions this year were Soyuz and Vega...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lars-J on 08/24/2017 08:30 pm
Nice lunch time rocket launch but it sounds like its been done from the cafeteria.


It literally is. Their webcast studio is located on the 2nd floor just above the cafeteria, overlooking the control room.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 08/24/2017 08:48 pm
Do we know why it looks like they've gone back to the coated AL grid fins?

From what little we got to see.. it looked like Landing with the new Ti ones had some issues... too much drag?  Don't think they ever released video for that one.

Any idea when and if they resurface?

What in the world gives you that idea?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Kansan52 on 08/24/2017 08:59 pm
What's wrong with the idea that these fins were in stock and could do the job?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lar on 08/24/2017 09:02 pm
What's wrong with the idea that these fins were in stock and could do the job?
Absolutely nothing. Unless there was some other overriding cost factor, why would SpaceX NOT be frugal about this??? Cost is the mantra. Coolness and efficiency and high launch cadence and reusability are all side effects. :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: mongo on 08/24/2017 09:11 pm
Is the reason that TV coverage always seems to flake out on the barge upon stage approach, the same reason that the Saturn V 1st/2nd stages always lost data and relied on tape recorders during staging?  Due to flame effect and signal degradation?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: cppetrie on 08/24/2017 09:42 pm
Is the reason that TV coverage always seems to flake out on the barge upon stage approach, the same reason that the Saturn V 1st/2nd stages always lost data and relied on tape recorders during staging?  Due to flame effect and signal degradation?
Vibration knocks the sat uplink out of alignment causing the feed interrupt.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gospacex on 08/24/2017 09:53 pm
Is the reason that TV coverage always seems to flake out on the barge upon stage approach, the same reason that the Saturn V 1st/2nd stages always lost data and relied on tape recorders during staging?  Due to flame effect and signal degradation?
Vibration knocks the sat uplink out of alignment causing the feed interrupt.

Also, Bezos engineers do not really need to get a free engineering data on how exactly their competitor nails the landing.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 08/24/2017 09:57 pm
Is the reason that TV coverage always seems to flake out on the barge upon stage approach, the same reason that the Saturn V 1st/2nd stages always lost data and relied on tape recorders during staging?  Due to flame effect and signal degradation?
Vibration knocks the sat uplink out of alignment causing the feed interrupt.

Also, Bezos engineers do not really need to get a free engineering data on how exactly their competitor nails the landing.

That's supposed to be a joke, right? (See, c.f., the CRS-12 landing - first stage video from stage sep all the way to the 'X').
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: cppetrie on 08/24/2017 10:16 pm
Do we know why it looks like they've gone back to the coated AL grid fins?

From what little we got to see.. it looked like Landing with the new Ti ones had some issues... too much drag?  Don't think they ever released video for that one.

Any idea when and if they resurface?

The probably have a backlog of old fins and are using them on low-energy missions instead of throwing them away.

They need the Titanium fins for FH, we’ll definitely see them again.

This isn’t so much them “going back” to the old fins, it’s more that they introduced the new ones before they were out of old ones.
I was thinking they may also be doing some non-destructive testing post-landing on the first Ti set. Checking to see if there are any concerning areas or modifications that need to be made before they go into production with any more Ti sets. Since they have stock of the Al ones, they might as well use them while they test and tweak the Ti ones for final production run.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: BrightLight on 08/25/2017 12:23 am
Is it just me or is there something to this - I have noticed in the last few flights that the first stage rocket plumes are much more "neater" and self-contained - they look more controlled?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Prettz on 08/25/2017 12:48 am
Do we know why it looks like they've gone back to the coated AL grid fins?

From what little we got to see.. it looked like Landing with the new Ti ones had some issues... too much drag?  Don't think they ever released video for that one.

Any idea when and if they resurface?
They will probably use / reuse the AL fins on low energy flights until they're all too worn out, then move to all Titanium fins.
Given the fairly low % of LEO flights, this could go on until 2019.

We could see Block IV and Block V launches with old grid thins for a while.
That makes no sense. If aluminum grid fins cost money to refurbish and the titanium ones cost zero, there's no reason to drag it out that long. They could just use up whatever few sets they had left until redundant sets of titanium ones are available.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: wannamoonbase on 08/25/2017 01:11 am
Gents, the Ti grid fins May also require different actuators.  They maybe using up what they have previously made in fins and actuators. 

Also they may only have the 1 full set at this time. He did say they were the largest Ti forging.  They likely wanted to fly them, and see if they needed to make any tweaks before making more. 

It's no big thing they'll be routine soon enough. 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Prettz on 08/25/2017 01:21 am
Of course they only have one set at the moment, or did when they last flew. But they probably had more in the pipeline at that time. And possibly more aluminum fins in the pipeline that it made sense to pay to finish building. They'll want to have additional sets to avoid having none if a booster is lost. But I find it hard to believe they have enough aluminum fins stockpiled to last into 2018 (one flight each), much less 2019.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: catdlr on 08/25/2017 02:54 am
SpaceX Will Lose Millions on Its Taiwanese Satellite Launch

https://www.yahoo.com/news/spacex-lose-millions-taiwanese-satellite-140000663.html
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: wannamoonbase on 08/25/2017 03:24 am
SpaceX Will Lose Millions on Its Taiwanese Satellite Launch

https://www.yahoo.com/news/spacex-lose-millions-taiwanese-satellite-140000663.html

However, if they can reuse the core…
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: drnscr on 08/25/2017 03:39 am
SpaceX Will Lose Millions on Its Taiwanese Satellite Launch

https://www.yahoo.com/news/spacex-lose-millions-taiwanese-satellite-140000663.html

There are some glaring errors in the article and some very apparent biases against SpaceX...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ChrisGebhardt on 08/25/2017 05:00 am
SpaceX Will Lose Millions on Its Taiwanese Satellite Launch

https://www.yahoo.com/news/spacex-lose-millions-taiwanese-satellite-140000663.html

There are some glaring errors in the article and some very apparent biases against SpaceX...

What are the "glaring errors"?  And where is the "apparent biases against SpaceX"?  Please explain.

I read the article.  It's a look at the understood economics of this launch that are nowhere near the economics of other launches.

Let's be careful about accusing other reporters/sites of bias because they do a hard report on the financial loss Formosat-5's launch very much was for SpaceX.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lars-J on 08/25/2017 05:47 am
SpaceX Will Lose Millions on Its Taiwanese Satellite Launch

https://www.yahoo.com/news/spacex-lose-millions-taiwanese-satellite-140000663.html

There are some glaring errors in the article and some very apparent biases against SpaceX...

What are the "glaring errors"?  And where is the "apparent biases against SpaceX"?  Please explain.

I read the article.  It's a look at the understood economics of this launch that are nowhere near the economics of other launches.

Let's be careful about accusing other reporters/sites of bias because they do a hard report on the financial loss Formosat-5's launch very much was for SpaceX.

Agreed, it is not a very "biased" article, but it also doesn't really do much to highlight that the other options - A) more delay while waiting for another SSO customer to co-manifest or B) default/break the contract - would likely be even worse for SpaceX, though. Both from a financial and customer service point of view.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ugordan on 08/25/2017 06:02 am
Seemed like the highest duration flight time for a first stage yet. Release high up or with alot of vertical velocity ?

Checking against <video link removed> the entry burn started when the others were landing (It was longer than the longest one from that particular montage) !

Also interesting to note is that this is the first entry burn we've publicly seen where it apparently started well up so there was no immediate shock-induced glow of the exhaust at ignition, it took a while to appear after the booster entered more dense atmosphere. Center engine ignition at T+8:47, 2 others kick in at T+8:51 and the glow starts appearing only around T+8:57

Would have been interesting to see the stage 1 telemetry during that period.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Callezetter on 08/25/2017 06:18 am
yep

Elon Musk‏Verified account @elonmusk  29m29 minutes ago

Max velocity: Mach 6.9
Max altitude: 247 km
Highest so far, but velocity matters much more
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lars-J on 08/25/2017 06:22 am
Seemed like the highest duration flight time for a first stage yet. Release high up or with alot of vertical velocity ?

Checking against <video link removed> the entry burn started when the others were landing (It was longer than the longest one from that particular montage) !

Also interesting to note is that this is the first entry burn we've publicly seen where it apparently started well up so there was no immediate shock-induced glow of the exhaust at ignition, it took a while to appear after the booster entered more dense atmosphere. Center engine ignition at T+8:47, 2 others kick in at T+8:51 and the glow starts appearing only around T+8:57

Would have been interesting to see the stage 1 telemetry during that period.

It looks like the with the lofted trajectory and it was likely coming in very fast, so it needed to start the braking burn much sooner. And this was a much longer entry burn than the last RTLS flight, for comparison. (~30 sec vs ~10 sec) The apogee of this stage could have reached over 300 km, whereas RTLS trajectories for ISS LEO missions only reach ~160 km, if I recall right.

EDIT: Elon just posted on twitter that this stage reached 247 km, so not quite 300 km. But it was an altitude record for the first stage: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/900958153533042689
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: su27k on 08/25/2017 07:10 am
SpaceX Will Lose Millions on Its Taiwanese Satellite Launch

https://www.yahoo.com/news/spacex-lose-millions-taiwanese-satellite-140000663.html

There are some glaring errors in the article and some very apparent biases against SpaceX...

What are the "glaring errors"?

Here's some errors:

1. "The overkill is thanks to a years-long delay": It's due to the cancellation of F1e, it has nothing to do with delays.

2. "So how did Taiwan hitch a discounted ride on a Falcon 9? Delay after delay.": If you read the first few pages of this thread, it's clear the satellite isn't even ready until early 2016, so there's only one delay caused by Amos-6.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: titusou on 08/25/2017 07:48 am
NSPO told me clearly that Formosat-5 doesn't boost itself into op orbit, it's been put into op orbit by Falcon9 stage2.

Which means Formosat-5 was sep into 720km circular orbit with single stage2 burn...


I know CRS was using single stage2 burn into parking orbit, but that's to ISS, not LEO sat mission

Jason3: stage2 2nd burn ~20secs
Irdium-1: stage2 2nd burn ~2secs
Irdium-2: stage2 2nd burn ~2secs

OG2 (2,000kg payload) is the only LEO sat mission which I can find which doesn't have stage2 burn

I know it's do-able (tried in KSP  :P), but how usual/unusual it's to have single stage2 burn into circular orbit. Doesn't seem usual to me.  ???


Titus

Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Jarnis on 08/25/2017 08:06 am
NSPO told me clearly that Formosat-5 doesn't boost itself into op orbit, it's been put into op orbit by Falcon9 stage2.

Which means Formosat-5 was sep into 720km circular orbit with single stage2 burn...


I know CRS was using single stage2 burn into parking orbit, but that's to ISS, not LEO sat mission

Jason3: stage2 2nd burn ~20secs
Irdium-1: stage2 2nd burn ~2secs
Irdium-2: stage2 2nd burn ~2secs

OG2 (2,000kg payload) is the only LEO sat mission which I can find which doesn't have stage2 burn

I know it's do-able (tried in KSP  :P), but how usual/unusual it's to have single stage2 burn into circular orbit. Doesn't seem usual to me.  ???


Titus

It generally works only if there is ton of excess margin, or the orbit is very low. In this case, there was a ton of excess margin and this way you could avoid a second stage restart which is always a (minor) risk.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 08/25/2017 09:49 am
There were rumours that SpaceX were going to be doing some stage 2 recovery tests in this mission. Has that turned out to be just speculation?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: LouScheffer on 08/25/2017 10:59 am
SpaceX Will Lose Millions on Its Taiwanese Satellite Launch

https://www.yahoo.com/news/spacex-lose-millions-taiwanese-satellite-140000663.html

There are some glaring errors in the article and some very apparent biases against SpaceX...
I actually thought it was very positive for the space industry.  In any normal capitalist market, companies bid what they think it will cost, plus some profit.   Sometimes they are wrong and lose money on a particular contract.  If they do it too often, they go out of business.

So this to me indicates the launch market is becoming more commercial, and imposing financial discipline.   In the long run that's a good thing, as both customers and vendors try to optimize value for every dollar they spend.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: smoliarm on 08/25/2017 12:11 pm
SpaceX Will Lose Millions on Its Taiwanese Satellite Launch

https://www.yahoo.com/news/spacex-lose-millions-taiwanese-satellite-140000663.html

There are some glaring errors in the article and some very apparent biases against SpaceX...

What are the "glaring errors"?

Here's some errors:

1. "The overkill is thanks to a years-long delay": It's due to the cancellation of F1e, it has nothing to do with delays.

2. "So how did Taiwan hitch a discounted ride on a Falcon 9? Delay after delay.": If you read the first few pages of this thread, it's clear the satellite isn't even ready until early 2016, so there's only one delay caused by Amos-6.

I did not check the archives, just by what I remember about this story:

#1 - I do not agree. Here is my recollection: as of beginning of 2016, this flight was planned as Formosat-5 WITH co-passenger, Sherpa (with about 80 nano-satellites). Later in the year, Sherpa withdraw from this flight BECAUSE of delays, they had a number of customers who could not wait. IIRC(*), this happened before the AMOS-6 explosion. But even if it happened after - it has nothing to do with F1e cancellation, all this happened in 2016, and F1e was canceled (shelved) in 2009 (again - IIRC).
Bottom-line for your #1 - this *overkill* (the payload being 5-7 times lighter then actual F9FT performance for this type of orbit) was caused by a canceled RIDESHARE (not by old story with F1e), it happened sometime last year, and this ride-share cancellation was indeed caused by launch delays.
* - The best way to check the facts here is to look through last year press-releases by Spaceflight Industries.

#2 - " the satellite isn't even ready until early 2016"
- correct.
However, the *satellite was ready early 2016* and *satellite was launched in Aug 2017* - these two statements are perfectly consistent with "thanks to a years-long delay" from the article.

Another way to reconstruct this story with Sherpa rescheduling is to look through "US launch schedule" thread.

edit: corrected typos.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: kdhilliard on 08/25/2017 12:39 pm
SpaceX Will Lose Millions on Its Taiwanese Satellite Launch

https://www.yahoo.com/news/spacex-lose-millions-taiwanese-satellite-140000663.html

The article says the "payload fairing ... is worth around $6 million".

Is that a figure we've heard before?  I know Mr. Musk has described it as a pallet of cash, but I though that he was talking about the $1-2 million range.

~Kirk
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: smoliarm on 08/25/2017 12:49 pm
SpaceX Will Lose Millions on Its Taiwanese Satellite Launch

https://www.yahoo.com/news/spacex-lose-millions-taiwanese-satellite-140000663.html

The article says the "payload fairing ... is worth around $6 million".

Is that a figure we've heard before?  I know Mr. Musk has described it as a pallet of cash, but I though that he was talking about the $1-2 million range.

~Kirk
Yes, here -
http://spacenews.com/spacex-gaining-substantial-cost-savings-from-reused-falcon-9/
("SpaceX gaining substantial cost savings from reused Falcon 9"
by Jeff Foust — April 5, 2017)
Quote
Musk said at last week’s briefing that each payload fairing costs about $6 million. “At one point we were debating if we should try to recover it or not,” he said. “Imagine if you had $6 million in cash in a pallet flying through the air, and it was going to smash into the ocean. Would you try to recover that? Yes, yes you would.”
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: old_sellsword on 08/25/2017 12:55 pm
There were rumours that SpaceX were going to be doing some stage 2 recovery tests in this mission. Has that turned out to be just speculation?

Just speculation, and it was only based on payload mass and orbit, so not even speculation based on evidence.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: drnscr on 08/25/2017 12:56 pm
1.  Mr Gebhardt second paragraph, third sentence. 

2.  The entire eighth paragraph makes what I believe to be assumptions unfavorable to SpaceX

3.  What does the picture of Amos6 explosion have to do with Formosasat?

4.  The entire next to last paragraph
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gospacex on 08/25/2017 01:13 pm
Is the reason that TV coverage always seems to flake out on the barge upon stage approach, the same reason that the Saturn V 1st/2nd stages always lost data and relied on tape recorders during staging?  Due to flame effect and signal degradation?
Vibration knocks the sat uplink out of alignment causing the feed interrupt.

Also, Bezos engineers do not really need to get a free engineering data on how exactly their competitor nails the landing.

That's supposed to be a joke, right?

No, it is not. I do think that if SpaceX would fix their barge video downlink and make it always show every landing moment in crisp details, all this effort would be helping their _competition_. Even if Bezos now has a few videos, having more of them would be even better for him.

If I would be SpaceX, I would not be improving that downlink.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 08/25/2017 01:29 pm
A
No, it is not. I do think that if SpaceX would fix their barge video downlink and make it always show every landing moment in crisp details, all this effort would be helping their _competition_. Even if Bezos now has a few videos, having more of them would be even better for him.

If I would be SpaceX, I would not be improving that downlink.

Not improving the downlink is about money and payoff, nothing else. No real aerospace engineer is going to learn anything from a landing video at this point that don't already know. Seriously, there has already been coverage of previous launches from ignition through stage return, both tracking cameras from KSC and on-board video through touchdown.

There's nothing to hide in the methodology at this point - it's all engineering, and pictures don't change that.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lar on 08/25/2017 02:02 pm
Seemed like the highest duration flight time for a first stage yet. Release high up or with alot of vertical velocity ?

Checking against <video link removed> the entry burn started when the others were landing (It was longer than the longest one from that particular montage) !

Also interesting to note is that this is the first entry burn we've publicly seen where it apparently started well up so there was no immediate shock-induced glow of the exhaust at ignition, it took a while to appear after the booster entered more dense atmosphere. Center engine ignition at T+8:47, 2 others kick in at T+8:51 and the glow starts appearing only around T+8:57

Would have been interesting to see the stage 1 telemetry during that period.

It looks like the with the lofted trajectory and it was likely coming in very fast, so it needed to start the braking burn much sooner. And this was a much longer entry burn than the last RTLS flight, for comparison. (~30 sec vs ~10 sec) The apogee of this stage could have reached over 300 km, whereas RTLS trajectories for ISS LEO missions only reach ~160 km, if I recall right.

EDIT: Elon just posted on twitter that this stage reached 247 km, so not quite 300 km. But it was an altitude record for the first stage: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/900958153533042689
IIRC, the commentator said it the entry burn was 37 seconds, but I might have misheard or misremembered.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: abaddon on 08/25/2017 02:18 pm
With regards to the long braking burn, another factor to consider is that the 1st stage had a lot of margin here.  Why not do a nice long gentle re-entry if you have the fuel to spare?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: rpapo on 08/25/2017 03:25 pm
With regards to the long braking burn, another factor to consider is that the 1st stage had a lot of margin here.  Why not do a nice long gentle re-entry if you have the fuel to spare?
Yes, but coming down from more than twice the usual altitude, the stage should be going roughly 1.5-2 times faster than usual at the point when it started hitting the atmosphere.  And it was coming almost straight down, since it was so much more lofted than usual, so the transition in air density would be that much more abrupt.

According to some rough calculations, if the rocket peaked at about 250 kilometers altitude, and free-fell for 200km (assuming thicker air at about 50km), at the end of that fall it would be going approximately 2000 m/s, or 4500 mph. 

By the same calculation, falling from 120 km (IIRC), the speed upon hitting the thicker air would be around 1170 m/s, or 2600 mph.

Bottom line: a much longer reentry burn is required.  Somebody else could produce more accurate numbers than mine.  A higher value for where the air gets thicker would result in lower entry speeds, of course.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ZachS09 on 08/25/2017 03:30 pm
IIRC, the commentator said it the entry burn was 37 seconds, but I might have misheard or misremembered.

The entry burn lasted 39 seconds, Lar.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: RedLineTrain on 08/25/2017 03:31 pm
SpaceX's great year continues, looking good to have the most launches of any launch provider globally this year.

China expects about 30 launches.

Quote
Q:  How many launches are you planning for this year?

A:  Around 30; China has a lot of domestic launch needs. For example, the Beidou navigation constellation is still at the deployment stage to become a global system by 2020. Also, there are some Chinese domestic programs for Earth observation, weather satellites, and also human exploration and deep space exploration programs. All these areas are requiring a significant number of launches. Last year we were on par with the U.S. for 22 launches. I think this year we might be No. 1 in terms of launches. (Editor’s note: this interview was conducted before the July 2 failure of China’s Long March 5 rocket.)

http://spacenews.com/back-to-back-commercial-satellite-wins-leave-china-great-wall-hungry-for-more/
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: abaddon on 08/25/2017 03:32 pm
My post wasn't suggesting an either/or.  I agree that a longer entry burn was required.  However, I think we can also agree that it wasn't a "hot re-entry" like we've seen on some more aggressive GTO profiles.  With the margin available it'd make sense to use it to provide as gentle a re-entry as possible with an eye towards future reuse.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: rpapo on 08/25/2017 03:36 pm
My post wasn't suggesting an either/or.  I agree that a longer entry burn was required.  However, I think we can also agree that it wasn't a "hot re-entry" like we've seen on some more aggressive GTO profiles.  With the margin available it'd make sense to use it to provide as gentle a re-entry as possible with an eye towards future reuse.
Agreed.  When they can, they should.  Waste some fuel to gravity losses, that is.  It's easier on the equipment, as they have discovered.  And landing with too much fuel on board is not a good idea.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: abaddon on 08/25/2017 03:37 pm
China expects about 30 launches.
They have had eight (one failed) so far this year, so yeah... no.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: RedLineTrain on 08/25/2017 03:43 pm
China expects about 30 launches.
They have had eight (one failed) so far this year, so yeah... no.

In 2015 at this point, China Great Wall had only three launches.  Went on to launch 19 for the year.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: abaddon on 08/25/2017 03:45 pm
In 2015 at this point, China Great Wall had only three launches.  Went on to launch 19 for the year.
24 is still well short of 30 (although more than SpaceX will do).

We'll see.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: kdhilliard on 08/25/2017 04:18 pm
I did not check the archives, just by what I remember about this story:

#1 - I do not agree. Here is my recollection: as of beginning of 2016, this flight was planned as Formosat-5 WITH co-passenger, Sherpa (with about 80 nano-satellites). Later in the year, Sherpa withdraw from this flight BECAUSE of delays, they had a number of customers who could not wait. IIRC(*), this happened before the AMOS-6 explosion. But even if it happened after - it has nothing to do with F1e cancellation, all this happened in 2016, and F1e was canceled (shelved) in 2009 (again - IIRC).
Bottom-line for your #1 - this *overkill* (the payload being 5-7 times lighter then actual F9FT performance for this type of orbit) was caused by a canceled RIDESHARE (not by old story with F1e), it happened sometime last year, and this ride-share cancellation was indeed caused by launch delays.
* - The best way to check the facts here is to look through last year press-releases by Spaceflight Industries.

#2 - " the satellite isn't even ready until early 2016"
- correct.
However, the *satellite was ready early 2016* and *satellite was launched in Aug 2017* - these two statements are perfectly consistent with "thanks to a years-long delay" from the article.

Another way to reconstruct this story with Sherpa rescheduling is to look through "US launch schedule" thread.

edit: corrected typos.

Our William Graham feature article, Falcon 9 successfully launches Taiwan’s Formosat-5, https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/08/falcon-9-vandenberg-launch-formosat-5/ says, "A Spaceflight Incorporated rideshare payload, consisting of a SHERPA adaptor with up to ninety small satellites, had been scheduled to fly as a secondary payload however this was removed from the launch due to uncertainty over the launch date, after Falcon 9 was grounded towards the end of last year."

Here is part of the announcement from Spaceflight's President, Curt Blake, on 2 March, 2017: http://spaceflight.com/a-message-from-spaceflight-president-curt-blake-on-the-formosat-5sherpa-launch/

Quote
We applaud the work that SpaceX has done, and is continuing to do on behalf of the industry. We couldn’t be more thrilled to see them solve some of the toughest challenges of our time and always look forward to working with them. However, they recently communicated their 2017 manifest and the impact on the Formosat-5 mission is significant. We learned our launch would occur potentially much later than expected. (As a secondary rideshare on this mission, our control of the schedule is far less than when we’re the primary like on our SSO-A dedicated mission later this year.)

Our response: Our job, first and foremost, is to satisfy our customers’ needs to get into space as quickly and cost-effectively as possible. While delays are inevitable in the launch business, we made the decision to rebook all our customers slated to launch on the FormoSat-5 mission.

The result: We found each of our customers an alternative launch that was within the same time frame. It took a huge effort, but within two weeks, the team hustled to have all customers who wanted to be rebooked confirmed on other launches!

Here is where that announcement is discussed in the Formosat-5 Discussion thread: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=21984.msg1649492#msg1649492

Regarding the Wired article, it didn't strike me as biased either.  It did say, "SpaceX will pay 1.25 percent of the launch costs back to them for every month that Formosat-5 is delayed, according to the mission’s contract."  I wonder what point that started counting from.

~Kirk
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: rpapo on 08/25/2017 04:58 pm
IIRC, there was a limit on the penalty amount.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: king1999 on 08/25/2017 08:40 pm

Regarding the Wired article, it didn't strike me as biased either.  It did say, "SpaceX will pay 1.25 percent of the launch costs back to them for every month that Formosat-5 is delayed, according to the mission’s contract."  I wonder what point that started counting from.

~Kirk
I think the maximum was 10% so it didn't matter when that started counting.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ChrisGebhardt on 08/25/2017 08:46 pm
1.  Mr Gebhardt second paragraph, third sentence. 

2.  The entire eighth paragraph makes what I believe to be assumptions unfavorable to SpaceX

3.  What does the picture of Amos6 explosion have to do with Formosasat?

4.  The entire next to last paragraph

1.  That sentence is "After the lightest single payload to ever hitch a ride on a Falcon 9 separates, the booster will fly back for a drone ship landing—hopefully to be reused in future, more economically viable missions."  Not seeing what's factually inaccurate or biased against SpaceX there.  Formosat-5 is the lightest payload (except the classified NROL-76 payload and the first three Dragon demo missions in 2010 and 2012) to hitch a ride on Falcon 9 that we know of.  As this was a pre-launch article, being hopeful for a successful landing for economical reuse is also accurate.

2. 8th paragraph is: "So how much is SpaceX going to lose on this mission? If you remove the potential reusability of the Falcon 9 booster for a moment, a lot. According to a launch cost analysis by investment firm Jefferies International, SpaceX usually makes a 40 percent profit from $62 million commercial Falcon 9 launches with new boosters. That puts $25 million in the bank and $37 million toward direct launch costs. With Taiwan’s severely reduced fare of $23 million, SpaceX is not only foregoing its profit but will be out-of-pocket for the remaining $14 million."  What do you believe are the unfavorable assumptions against SpaceX?

3. That picture is not part of the article.  It's part of three links to related articles.  As the AMOS-6 conflagration is discussed in the article, that would be a valid related article link.

4. The entire second to last paragraph:  "For an industry struggling to reduce the price and accessibility of space, the Formosat-5 launch is a dramatic waste of resources. It also reveals an emerging but underserved market for customers hoping to launch smaller satellites. Vector Space Systems—founded by former SpaceX exec Jim Cantrell—is promising a dramatic reduction in launch costs for smaller payloads with readily available flights. It completed a test flight of its rocket with commercial payloads earlier this month. And launch startup Rocket Lab, with $75 million in funding, recently tested a rocket at its facility in New Zealand."  Again, I'm not personally seeing a biased against SpaceX or anything that isn't factual.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Nomadd on 08/25/2017 10:17 pm
 I must be getting bored with the rain. I just figured that the booster missed it's landing target by an astronomical amount. 0.00000000000000000072 light years if I figured it right.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: envy887 on 08/25/2017 10:25 pm
With regards to the long braking burn, another factor to consider is that the 1st stage had a lot of margin here.  Why not do a nice long gentle re-entry if you have the fuel to spare?
Yes, but coming down from more than twice the usual altitude, the stage should be going roughly 1.5-2 times faster than usual at the point when it started hitting the atmosphere.  And it was coming almost straight down, since it was so much more lofted than usual, so the transition in air density would be that much more abrupt.

According to some rough calculations, if the rocket peaked at about 250 kilometers altitude, and free-fell for 200km (assuming thicker air at about 50km), at the end of that fall it would be going approximately 2000 m/s, or 4500 mph. 

By the same calculation, falling from 120 km (IIRC), the speed upon hitting the thicker air would be around 1170 m/s, or 2600 mph.

Bottom line: a much longer reentry burn is required.  Somebody else could produce more accurate numbers than mine.  A higher value for where the air gets thicker would result in lower entry speeds, of course.

You're ignoring horizontal velocity, which is very significant especially for depressed trajectories. This entry might have been hotter than a typical LEO (which usually have minimal horizontal velocity), but was not as hot as any GTO missions - those are all going downrange very fast.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: deruch on 08/25/2017 10:53 pm
SpaceX Will Lose Millions on Its Taiwanese Satellite Launch

https://www.yahoo.com/news/spacex-lose-millions-taiwanese-satellite-140000663.html

There are some glaring errors in the article and some very apparent biases against SpaceX...
I actually thought it was very positive for the space industry.  In any normal capitalist market, companies bid what they think it will cost, plus some profit.   Sometimes they are wrong and lose money on a particular contract.  If they do it too often, they go out of business.

So this to me indicates the launch market is becoming more commercial, and imposing financial discipline.   In the long run that's a good thing, as both customers and vendors try to optimize value for every dollar they spend.

My only "problems" with the article is when SpaceX's internal costs are so obscure any simple A-B=C analysis is going to run the risk of being very off base and, more importantly, I felt it framed the financial issue incorrectly.  When SpaceX cancelled production of the F1e, they could have just cancelled the remaining contracts and negotiated compensation or, if an agreement couldn't be reached, fought it out in court or through mediation.  Instead they chose to honor the contracts even though doing so with an F9 was likely going to entail a vastly underpriced F9 contract.  So, to my mind, the questions should have been, Did SpaceX lose more in missed revenues than they would have had to pay in compensation for breaking their original contract?  How did SpaceX's strategy to offer 'make-up' launches on the F9 affect their standing with other potential customers?  Retrospectively, how do the customers that opted to fly with other launch providers instead of waiting for an F9 feel compared to those who waited?  etc. 
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: rpapo on 08/25/2017 11:16 pm
With regards to the long braking burn, another factor to consider is that the 1st stage had a lot of margin here.  Why not do a nice long gentle re-entry if you have the fuel to spare?
Yes, but coming down from more than twice the usual altitude, the stage should be going roughly 1.5-2 times faster than usual at the point when it started hitting the atmosphere.  And it was coming almost straight down, since it was so much more lofted than usual, so the transition in air density would be that much more abrupt.

According to some rough calculations, if the rocket peaked at about 250 kilometers altitude, and free-fell for 200km (assuming thicker air at about 50km), at the end of that fall it would be going approximately 2000 m/s, or 4500 mph. 

By the same calculation, falling from 120 km (IIRC), the speed upon hitting the thicker air would be around 1170 m/s, or 2600 mph.

Bottom line: a much longer reentry burn is required.  Somebody else could produce more accurate numbers than mine.  A higher value for where the air gets thicker would result in lower entry speeds, of course.

You're ignoring horizontal velocity, which is very significant especially for depressed trajectories. This entry might have been hotter than a typical LEO (which usually have minimal horizontal velocity), but was not as hot as any GTO missions - those are all going downrange very fast.
I know that.  I was doing rough calculations only relevant to the highly lofted kind of trajectory we just saw.  I was only looking for a comparison of velocities at the time of hitting the upper atmosphere.  That it was no-where near as hot as one of the GTO launches was evident from how the grid-fins didn't start smoking.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: su27k on 08/26/2017 03:29 am
SpaceX Will Lose Millions on Its Taiwanese Satellite Launch

https://www.yahoo.com/news/spacex-lose-millions-taiwanese-satellite-140000663.html

There are some glaring errors in the article and some very apparent biases against SpaceX...

What are the "glaring errors"?

Here's some errors:

1. "The overkill is thanks to a years-long delay": It's due to the cancellation of F1e, it has nothing to do with delays.

2. "So how did Taiwan hitch a discounted ride on a Falcon 9? Delay after delay.": If you read the first few pages of this thread, it's clear the satellite isn't even ready until early 2016, so there's only one delay caused by Amos-6.

I did not check the archives, just by what I remember about this story:

#1 - I do not agree. Here is my recollection: as of beginning of 2016, this flight was planned as Formosat-5 WITH co-passenger, Sherpa (with about 80 nano-satellites). Later in the year, Sherpa withdraw from this flight BECAUSE of delays, they had a number of customers who could not wait. IIRC(*), this happened before the AMOS-6 explosion. But even if it happened after - it has nothing to do with F1e cancellation, all this happened in 2016, and F1e was canceled (shelved) in 2009 (again - IIRC).
Bottom-line for your #1 - this *overkill* (the payload being 5-7 times lighter then actual F9FT performance for this type of orbit) was caused by a canceled RIDESHARE (not by old story with F1e), it happened sometime last year, and this ride-share cancellation was indeed caused by launch delays.
* - The best way to check the facts here is to look through last year press-releases by Spaceflight Industries.

Adding Sherpa wouldn't change the mass equation significantly, there're mass numbers on Sherpa on page 6, it's only 1.2 tons, adding it would still make this mission 5-7 times lighter than the full performance. The fundamental reason of the performance mismatch is because they switched a satellite originally booked on a smallsat launcher to a EELV medium class launcher which later grew to near heavy class, that's where the overkill comes from, adding some secondary payload is not going to change that.

Quote
#2 - " the satellite isn't even ready until early 2016"
- correct.
However, the *satellite was ready early 2016* and *satellite was launched in Aug 2017* - these two statements are perfectly consistent with "thanks to a years-long delay" from the article.

a 1.5 year delay is not "years-long" delay. If you read the article without knowing all the background, it's clear they're trying to make the case that this mission was delayed from its original launch date of 2013, this is what they meant by "years-long delay" and "delay after delay", which is simply not true.

Quote
Another way to reconstruct this story with Sherpa rescheduling is to look through "US launch schedule" thread.

The story is never about Sherpa, Sherpa is just footnote. The story should be about cancellation of F1, which is much more than Formosat-5. This is not the first time an overkill mission happened, and this is not the first time SpaceX flies a mission with a big loss (I think they took an even bigger loss on Orbcomm missions), a real journalist would try to find out the reason SpaceX is doing this, instead of trying to blame everything on delays.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 08/26/2017 04:16 am
The article clearly mentions that Formosat-5 launched on F9 because F1 was cancelled.  This discussion is going nowhere.  Please stop.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ZachF on 08/26/2017 12:43 pm
In 2015 at this point, China Great Wall had only three launches.  Went on to launch 19 for the year.
24 is still well short of 30 (although more than SpaceX will do).

We'll see.

China has also had a string of failures the last year, so going full throttle in 2H seems less likely. China has had 4 full or partial failures out of the last 18 launches, more failures just in the last year than they've had in the previous ~13 years.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: SmallKing on 08/26/2017 01:01 pm
China expects about 30 launches.
They have had eight (one failed) so far this year, so yeah... no.

In 2015 at this point, China Great Wall had only three launches.  Went on to launch 19 for the year.
But not this year. Since last double failure, CALT had delayed all launches planned this year, you can check launch schedule in 2017 here
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=5060.msg1697851#msg1697851 (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=5060.msg1697851#msg1697851)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: SmallKing on 08/26/2017 01:06 pm
In 2015 at this point, China Great Wall had only three launches.  Went on to launch 19 for the year.
24 is still well short of 30 (although more than SpaceX will do).

We'll see.

China has also had a string of failures the last year, so going full throttle in 2H seems less likely. China has had 4 full or partial failures out of the last 18 launches, more failures just in the last year than they've had in the previous ~13 years.
Even more seriously, It's 5 full or partial failures(If we count CZ-5 Y1)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Steve D on 08/26/2017 01:34 pm
Any reports on pad condition after the launch?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Joffan on 08/26/2017 02:25 pm
The Jefferies International launch cost analysis (discussed here) (http://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-reusable-rocket-launch-costs-profits-2017-6/#spacex-declined-to-answer-business-insiders-questions-about-its-profit-margins-cost-margins-and-how-quickly-reusability-could-pay-off-its-1-billion-investment-so-we-created-an-interactive-chart-to-calculate-a-few-scenarios-6) implies that with Stage 1 re-use, the Formosat launch at $23m didn't actually lose money (except in the sense of reduced profit margin), provided SpaceX allow themselves to capitalize the first stage construction cost and recover over 2-3 launches.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: titusou on 08/26/2017 03:44 pm
Here is where that announcement is discussed in the Formosat-5 Discussion thread: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=21984.msg1649492#msg1649492

Regarding the Wired article, it didn't strike me as biased either.  It did say, "SpaceX will pay 1.25 percent of the launch costs back to them for every month that Formosat-5 is delayed, according to the mission’s contract."  I wonder what point that started counting from.

~Kirk

NSPO said (in July) it's still to-be-determined as SpaceX and NSPO was define deadline differently.

IIRC, there was a limit on the penalty amount.

I been told by NSPO it's capped at 10%.


Titus
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: smoliarm on 08/26/2017 06:01 pm
It looks like with this launch SpaceX passed another milestone - their year-to-date revenue now is > $1 B.

Of course, the price numbers in the attached table are approximate, and the total estimate about ±10% inaccurate.
However, even if they did not pass this $1 B threshold, they are very close :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: AncientU on 08/26/2017 08:17 pm
Should add in all the milestone payments for commercial crew.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: smoliarm on 08/26/2017 08:52 pm
Should add in all the milestone payments for commercial crew.
- I'd love to, I just do not know where to take the numbers.
With previous contract, CCiCap, there was detailed schedule with all milestones and their $ values. But I did not see anything similar for CCtCap.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 08/26/2017 09:46 pm
Even if SpaceX will have no more successful launches this year, they launched more than Arianespace this year: Ariane only has 11 launches (8 done, 3 yet to perform).

2017 versus the main competition launchers: Ariane 5(4) + Atlas V(4) + Delta IV(1) + Proton(2) < Falcon 9(12)

Note:
Landed Boosters: Ariane 5(0) + Atlas V(0) + Delta IV(0) + Proton(0) < Falcon 9(9)
Fair to point out that as of today (August 26, 2017) Ariane 5 has boosted 37.918 tonnes to GTO during 2017 while Falcon 9 has only lifted 27.398 tonnes to GTO. 

Most of Falcon 9's work this year has been to LEO, and most of that for governments.

 - Ed Kyle

Ignoring FH Demo for the moment and assuming they maybe slip PAZ to next year, there are 21 flights we might expect SpaceX to perform this year.  Of those there are 10 GTO, basically very similar to 5 flights of Ariane 5 (6 payloads are > 5mT, 4 under).  I wouldn't be shocked if one or two of those slipped into next year, but hopefully they'll manage to get them launched in 2017.  For the other flights you've got 4x CRS, 4x Iridium, 2x NSS to LEO, and Formosat-5.

Arianespace seems to have 6x Ariane 5 GTO flights, plus they launched a couple of the smaller ones on Soyuz, so for the year Arianespace should easily stay ahead of SpaceX for GTO payloads.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 08/26/2017 10:10 pm
SpaceX's great year continues, looking good to have the most launches of any launch provider globally this year.

China expects about 30 launches.

Quote
Q:  How many launches are you planning for this year?

A:  Around 30; China has a lot of domestic launch needs. For example, the Beidou navigation constellation is still at the deployment stage to become a global system by 2020. Also, there are some Chinese domestic programs for Earth observation, weather satellites, and also human exploration and deep space exploration programs. All these areas are requiring a significant number of launches. Last year we were on par with the U.S. for 22 launches. I think this year we might be No. 1 in terms of launches. (Editor’s note: this interview was conducted before the July 2 failure of China’s Long March 5 rocket.)

http://spacenews.com/back-to-back-commercial-satellite-wins-leave-china-great-wall-hungry-for-more/
Please note, I've copy/pasted this thread-within-thread discussion, starting with the post quoted above, and continued it in the Chinese launch schedule thread, starting here (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=5060.msg1716215#msg1716215).

It seems more relevant there.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lars-J on 08/26/2017 10:51 pm
It looks like with this launch SpaceX passed another milestone - their year-to-date revenue now is > $1 B.

Of course, the price numbers in the attached table are approximate, and the total estimate about ±10% inaccurate.
However, even if they did not pass this $1 B threshold, they are very close :)

Yes but there are usually milestone payments for all contracts, even commercial. So SpaceX already received some of the funds for launches this before the year started.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 08/26/2017 11:17 pm
It looks like with this launch SpaceX passed another milestone - their year-to-date revenue now is > $1 B.

Of course, the price numbers in the attached table are approximate, and the total estimate about ±10% inaccurate.
However, even if they did not pass this $1 B threshold, they are very close :)

Yes but there are usually milestone payments for all contracts, even commercial. So SpaceX already received some of the funds for launches this before the year started.

We'll never figure out payment schedules.  Maybe we can just say their launches for the year have generated around $1B of revenue so far and not get hung up on when the money actually arrived  :)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: bsegal on 08/27/2017 01:19 am
Any word yet on fairing recovery attempt?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Lar on 08/27/2017 01:54 pm
Quote
Falcon 9 boost stage on droneship Just Read the Instructions

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/900947535358967808 (https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/900947535358967808)

Does it look to folks like this was a square on landing (not much tilt, not much difference in crush zone crushing)?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Kabloona on 08/28/2017 01:39 am
Quote
Falcon 9 boost stage on droneship Just Read the Instructions

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/900947535358967808 (https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/900947535358967808)

Does it look to folks like this was a square on landing (not much tilt, not much difference in crush zone crushing)?

The stage is 90 degrees vertical with respect to sea horizon in the pic, to the accuracy of an eyeball and the corner of an index card, so I'd call it square. Also, the vertical velocity and tilt numbers Elon quoted for touchdown seem quite low. Apparently he's bragging, with good reason.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: woods170 on 08/28/2017 06:19 am
Quote
Falcon 9 boost stage on droneship Just Read the Instructions

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/900947535358967808 (https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/900947535358967808)

Does it look to folks like this was a square on landing (not much tilt, not much difference in crush zone crushing)?

The stage is 90 degrees vertical with respect to sea horizon in the pic, to the accuracy of an eyeball and the corner of an index card, so I'd call it square. Also, the vertical velocity and tilt numbers Elon quoted for touchdown seem quite low. Apparently he's bragging, with good reason.
No bragging. This is just the first round in prepping all of us for a surprise.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: jpo234 on 08/28/2017 08:33 am


Should add in all the milestone payments for commercial crew.

And the Fan shop...
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Barrie on 08/28/2017 04:20 pm
No bragging. This is just the first round in prepping all of us for a surprise.

Is this your judgement, or do you know something?   ???
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: matthewkantar on 08/28/2017 04:33 pm
No bragging. This is just the first round in prepping all of us for a surprise.

Is this your judgement, or do you know something?   ???

In my dreams, the roomba thingy on the ASDS will start catching legless F-9 first stages soon.

Matthew
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: wannamoonbase on 08/28/2017 04:37 pm
No bragging. This is just the first round in prepping all of us for a surprise.

Is this your judgement, or do you know something?   ???

In my dreams, the roomba thingy on the ASDS will start catching legless F-9 first stages soon.

Matthew

I thought Roomba was just securing them after landing.

However, if it was an active device catching them from underneath that would be the most fantastical technology to ever watch do it's magic!  Could save a lot of weight too.

At sea would be much harder than land, however, they would likely need to demonstrate it safely 'not at LZ-1' before they got a license to do it on land.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: guckyfan on 08/28/2017 05:26 pm
At sea would be much harder than land, however, they would likely need to demonstrate it safely 'not at LZ-1' before they got a license to do it on land.

Nobody cares about a landing stage destroyed on LZ-1. As long as it hits the concrete circle there is no risk.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: wannamoonbase on 08/28/2017 05:56 pm
At sea would be much harder than land, however, they would likely need to demonstrate it safely 'not at LZ-1' before they got a license to do it on land.

Nobody cares about a landing stage destroyed on LZ-1. As long as it hits the concrete circle there is no risk.


Well then lets hope we see a Active Cradle Landing (ACL) at LZ-1 ASAP.

(It would help the whole 24 hr goal too.)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: gongora on 08/29/2017 03:36 am
Does anyone know how to view the launch license for this flight (LLS 17-103)?  It seems that since they didn't post it before the flight they didn't bother ever putting it in the list of active licenses, and I don't see how to view an inactive license.

https://www.faa.gov/data_research/commercial_space_data/launch_details/?id=2220 (https://www.faa.gov/data_research/commercial_space_data/launch_details/?id=2220)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: JamesH65 on 08/29/2017 08:39 am
No bragging. This is just the first round in prepping all of us for a surprise.

Is this your judgement, or do you know something?   ???

In my dreams, the roomba thingy on the ASDS will start catching legless F-9 first stages soon.

Matthew

In your dreams, does the Roomba with all its exposed hydraulic pipes etc in the exhaust wash, catch fire and melt?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: woods170 on 08/29/2017 09:47 am
No bragging. This is just the first round in prepping all of us for a surprise.

Is this your judgement, or do you know something?   ???
This is my informed judgement.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: matthewkantar on 08/29/2017 12:29 pm
No bragging. This is just the first round in prepping all of us for a surprise.

Is this your judgement, or do you know something?   ???

In my dreams, the roomba thingy on the ASDS will start catching legless F-9 first stages soon.

Matthew

In your dreams, does the Roomba with all its exposed hydraulic pipes etc in the exhaust wash, catch fire and melt?

It's clear to me that the thingy is not designed for catching a hot rocket, was chewing on the idea of catching an unmodified stage.

Matthew
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Oersted on 08/30/2017 07:44 pm
It would actually fit well with SpaceX's genius for doing research on paid commercial launches if they start experimenting with F9 first stage cradle landings. Great thinking outside the box, Matthew.

A question: do you guys and girls think there is a chance that we will see footage of the Formosat first stage landing?
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Comga on 09/19/2017 04:36 am
Bad news. First image shows Formosat-5 is out of focus
http://news.ltn.com.tw/news/focus/paper/1136494 (http://news.ltn.com.tw/news/focus/paper/1136494)

It is not clear from the mechanical translation if the imager can be refocused on orbit.
Keeping a camera focused through launch and orbital operations is difficult. 
If they have control of the satellite, including pointing and commanding, and can downlink image data, that's not terrible for a first try.
They can buy any images they need.  They can't get this kind of experience without a learning curve.

PS $5.6B Taiwan ~ $190M US
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: SmallKing on 09/19/2017 04:47 am
Bad news. First image shows Formosat-5 is out of focus
http://news.ltn.com.tw/news/focus/paper/1136494 (http://news.ltn.com.tw/news/focus/paper/1136494)

It is not clear from the mechanical translation if the imager can be refocused on orbit.
Keeping a camera focused through launch and orbital operations is difficult. 
If they have control of the satellite, including pointing and commanding, and can downlink image data, that's not terrible for a first try.
They can buy any images they need.  They can't get this kind of experience without a learning curve.

PS $5.6B Taiwan ~ $190M US
Sure, they can control the satellite. But the earlier news reported that refocusing may be hard.

The following news said it still has the hope of saving back http://news.sina.com.cn/o/2017-09-19/doc-ifykynia8224636.shtml
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Comga on 09/19/2017 04:54 am
Bad news. First image shows Formosat-5 is out of focus
http://news.ltn.com.tw/news/focus/paper/1136494 (http://news.ltn.com.tw/news/focus/paper/1136494)

It is not clear from the mechanical translation if the imager can be refocused on orbit.
Keeping a camera focused through launch and orbital operations is difficult. 
If they have control of the satellite, including pointing and commanding, and can downlink image data, that's not terrible for a first try.
They can buy any images they need.  They can't get this kind of experience without a learning curve.

PS $5.6B Taiwan ~ $190M US
Sure, they can control the satellite. But the earlier news reported that refocusing may be hard.

The following news said it still has the hope of saving back http://news.sina.com.cn/o/2017-09-19/doc-ifykynia8224636.shtml

"Hard" means not impossible, as in they have some way to effect focus.
My reading says that they tried once and made little or no improvement.
We will see if they can keep adjusting until they get good, or at least better, images. 
But as I said, it's not easy, and they have gotten pretty far towards their goal.

The mechanical translation did use the word "punish".  Let's hope they have more productive feedback for those who built the systems.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Comga on 09/19/2017 09:23 pm
More details
FormoSat-5 images out of focus; adjustment may take months: NARLabs
Quote
Taipei, Sept. 19 (CNA) The first photos taken by Taiwan's FormoSat-5 satellite were fuzzy and marred by light spots, which were caused by a focusing problem on the satellite's remote sensing instrument (RSI), the designer National Applied Research Laboratories (NARLabs) said Tuesday

The NT$5.6 billion (US$186 million) FormoSat-5, which was launched in the United States Aug. 25 aboard a SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket, is designed to capture panchromatic images with a resolution of up to two meters per pixel, and multispectral images with a resolution of four meters per pixel.

However, the first images of Earth taken by the RSI were blurry and those of urban areas were marred by light spots, Yu Shiann-jeng (余憲政), deputy chief of NARLabs' National Space Organization (NSPO), confirmed in the wake of local media reports on the issue.

Yu said that after days of observation, the NSPO had concluded that there was a problem with the RSI's focusing function and was trying to make some adjustments.

Regarding the light spots on the images, he said the NSPO was trying to adjust the position and interior temperature of the satellite, among other measures being taken to solve the problem.

The NSPO will also compare the images taken by FormoSat-5 and its predecessor FormoSat-2, using software to improve the former's image resolution, Yu said.

Meanwhile, NARLabs Vice President Wu Kuang-chong (吳光鐘) said the initial testing of FormoSat-5 will take time.

"The current assessment is that the image adjustment will take about two to three months to complete," he said.

FormoSat-5, a 450-kg octagonal shape mini-satellite that is 2.8 meters in height and 1.6 meters in diameter, was designed and built by the NSPO.

The satellite's mission is to advance and demonstrate Taiwan's indigenous space technology in the field of remote sensing satellites, to continue to serve global imagery users previously served by FormoSat-2, and to promote domestic space science research, according to the NSPO.

FormoSat-5 carries an optical remote sensing payload and a science payload to execute remote sensing missions and perform science research, respectively.

(By Huang Li-yun and Elizabeth Hsu)
Enditem/pc
http://m.focustaiwan.tw/news/ast/201709190014.aspx

This does not seem so much like "bad news" (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=43396.msg1724689#msg1724689) as engineering and learning curve.
The image projected behind the person doesn't look so bad, and that "bright spot" is curiously aligned with the pattern on the ground.
We shall see what they can do with the imager given some time.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Jdeshetler on 09/20/2017 03:19 am
Boy, it's not easy to watch this not so great news coming out. I hope they can find a solution thru remote troubleshooting.

Three of NSFer included myself were with Senior Formosat-5 team at the media launch viewing site when the Falcon 9 - Formosat-5 took off as shown in this Taiwan media link below. They were all pumped up and excited to see their long overdue baby take off.

http://www.ttv.com.tw/videocity/video_play.asp?id=288074
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: ionzide on 01/31/2018 11:02 pm
FormoSat-5 may allow earthquake prediction in the future: scientist

Quote
Taipei, Jan. 24 (CNA) Taiwan's FormoSat-5 satellite detected changes in the ionospheric days before a major earthquake in the Middle East last November, which bodes well for the prediction of quakes in the future, a Taiwanese scientist said Wednesday.

The data collected by FormoSat-5 on the changes in the ionosphere before the earthquake last November indicates that the satellite is world-class in terms of precision and speed, said Liu, a space physics scientist.

http://focustaiwan.tw/news/ast/201801240022.aspx
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: deruch on 02/01/2018 12:01 am
Dubious.  Besides the fact that I'm not really sure on how an imminent earthquake would be affecting the ionosphere, foreknowledge of a quake isn't enough.  You'd also have to know where it was going to occur.  Just knowing there's going to be an earthquake tomorrow doesn't help much if I can't tell the difference between an earthquake in Los Angeles and one in Lahore, Pakistan.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: somepitch on 02/01/2018 12:43 am
Dubious.  Besides the fact that I'm not really sure on how an imminent earthquake would be affecting the ionosphere, foreknowledge of a quake isn't enough.  You'd also have to know where it was going to occur.  Just knowing there's going to be an earthquake tomorrow doesn't help much if I can't tell the difference between an earthquake in Los Angeles and one in Lahore, Pakistan.

https://www.earthmagazine.org/article/ionospheric-charge-could-forewarn-earthquakes (https://www.earthmagazine.org/article/ionospheric-charge-could-forewarn-earthquakes)
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: Swedish chef on 03/23/2018 05:50 am
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/2017SW001738
Quote
On 24 August 2017, a SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket departed from Vandenberg Air Force Base in California, carrying Taiwan's FORMOSAT‐5 Earth observation satellite into orbit. The lightly weighted solo payload enables the rocket to fly a lofted trajectory for direct insertion at the mission altitude of 720 km. This unique nearly vertical trajectory is different from the usual satellite launches that the rockets fly over horizontal trajectory and insert satellites at 200 km altitude followed by orbit maneuvers to its mission altitudes. Consequently, the rocket launch generated a gigantic circular shock wave in the ionosphere covering a wide area four times greater than California. It is followed by ionospheric hole (plasma depletions) due to rapid chemical reactions of rocket exhaust plumes and ionospheric plasma. The ionospheric hole causing large spatial gradients could lead to ~1 m range errors into GPS navigation and positioning system. Understanding how the rocket launches affect our upper atmosphere and space environment is important as these anthropogenic space weather events are expected to increase at an enormous rate in the near future.
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 03/23/2018 06:18 am
Quote
SpaceX launch last year punched huge, temporary hole in the ionosphere
Rocket launches act somewhat like a small volcano eruption.

by Eric Berger - Mar 22, 2018 2:42pm GMT

https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/03/spacex-launch-last-year-punched-huge-temporary-hole-in-the-ionosphere/
Title: Re: SpaceX Falcon 9 : Formosat-5 : SLC-4E Vandenberg : Aug 24, 2017 : DISCUSSION
Post by: rsdavis9 on 03/23/2018 11:09 am
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/2017SW001738
Quote
On 24 August 2017, a SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket departed from Vandenberg Air Force Base in California, carrying Taiwan's FORMOSAT‐5 Earth observation satellite into orbit. The lightly weighted solo payload enables the rocket to fly a lofted trajectory for direct insertion at the mission altitude of 720 km. This unique nearly vertical trajectory is different from the usual satellite launches that the rockets fly over horizontal trajectory and insert satellites at 200 km altitude followed by orbit maneuvers to its mission altitudes. Consequently, the rocket launch generated a gigantic circular shock wave in the ionosphere covering a wide area four times greater than California. It is followed by ionospheric hole (plasma depletions) due to rapid chemical reactions of rocket exhaust plumes and ionospheric plasma. The ionospheric hole causing large spatial gradients could lead to ~1 m range errors into GPS navigation and positioning system. Understanding how the rocket launches affect our upper atmosphere and space environment is important as these anthropogenic space weather events are expected to increase at an enormous rate in the near future.

Its my understanding that the ionosphere causes delays in the propagation speed of radio signals. Basically the free electron density changes the speed. In more advanced gps receivers they can adjust for this propagation delay by using 2 frequencies since the propagation delay is different depending on frequency. They could then get a direct measure of the propagation delay for the signal path to the satellite. If the ionosphere delay is left uncorrected it can amount to as much as 100m.