What historical topics do we have new data on that has not yet been examined ?

[LittleBird]

I'm starting a thread prompted by Blackstar's remark about the "wealth of data available on many other projects ... [i.e. other than the still classified  CANYON, in the context of original message] ... that has not been examined". I am genuinely curious as to what he thinks we should be looking at in this respect, but would also be interested in other peoples' wish lists.  I also hope the thread would in some way help to  update this article https://www.thespacereview.com/article/4153/1 that he did with Asif Siddiqi in TSR a few years ago. My own near term historical focus will remain on CANYON and also the interesting synergy in the late 60s between US GEO comsats and GEO SIGINT, with an intent to actually submit some articles next year, but I am always interested to know what others are doing/care about.

[Mods: If there's a thread this should have been posted too please merge, but it wasn't obvious to me.]

[leovinus]

There are a few topics that we could talk about here but one that comes to my mind is stuff like KENNEN.

I came across the attached lists of docs and on the MDR list it has "The KENNEN Story".  I have never seen it but it was mentioned in earlier threads. For this example the case number is EOM-2020-00027 from 09/15/2020 and status "NRL". While I assume that "GIP" means "Granted in Part" and "GIF" "Granted in Full" I am not sure what NRL means. "Not released ??" on still in process I guess.

The point is, NRO and others keep releasing documents and given the size of these lists there might be interesting info out there that we missed so far.

A very different perspective is of course the 1960s info on Gemini and space stations. I keep digging up stuff but while I wait for some agencies to release docs, no summaries have been written about it yet.

[LittleBird]

There are a few topics that we could talk about here but one that comes to my mind is stuff like KENNEN.

I came across the attached lists of docs and on the MDR list it has "The KENNEN Story".  I have never seen it but it was mentioned in earlier threads. For this example the case number is EOM-2020-00027 from 09/15/2020 and status "NRL". While I assume that "GIP" means "Granted in Part" and "GIF" "Granted in Full" I am not sure what NRL means. "Not released ??" on still in process I guess.

The one I think of as "The KENNEN story" is the doc described by hoku here https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=29545.msg2293574#msg2293574

As far as I know we don't have its cover page, contents, or chapters beyond the second, but it's still a v useful doc.

I refer to it that way because it is analogous to the released HEXAGON and GAMBIT Stories that even exist in bound versions. Whether it dates from same era though I don't know.

The point is, NRO and others keep releasing documents and given the size of these lists there might be interesting info out there that we missed so far.
 

Almost bound to be.

[Blackstar]

There's a ton of EOI material released several years ago and people have barely scratched the surface going through that.

[leovinus]

There's a ton of EOI material released several years ago and people have barely scratched the surface going through that.

Yeah. much is supposed to be at
https://www.nro.gov/FOIA/Major-NRO-Programs-and-Projects/EOI-Documents/
but that gives me an error. However, the whole list is at
https://web.archive.org/web/20221205042824/http://www.nro.gov/FOIA/Major-NRO-Programs-and-Projects/EOI-Documents/
Attached the list of documents.

Similar story with the hint by@LittleBird

There are a few topics that we could talk about here but one that comes to my mind is stuff like KENNEN.

I came across the attached lists of docs and on the MDR list it has "The KENNEN Story".  I have never seen it but it was mentioned in earlier threads. For this example the case number is EOM-2020-00027 from 09/15/2020 and status "NRL". While I assume that "GIP" means "Granted in Part" and "GIF" "Granted in Full" I am not sure what NRL means. "Not released ??" on still in process I guess.

The one I think of as "The KENNEN story" is the doc described by hoku here https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=29545.msg2293574#msg2293574

Going to
http://www.nro.gov/FOIA/Historically-Significant-Documents/
gives me an error but this works:
https://web.archive.org/web/20221205042824/http://www.nro.gov/FOIA/Historically-Significant-Documents/

[hoku]

The (web) masters at NRO must be trained in obfuscation, thus every 2 to 5 years they re-arrange the links to the released documents... 

Yeah. much is supposed to be at
https://www.nro.gov/FOIA/Major-NRO-Programs-and-Projects/EOI-Documents/
but that gives me an error. However, the whole list is at
https://web.archive.org/web/20221205042824/http://www.nro.gov/FOIA/Major-NRO-Programs-and-Projects/EOI-Documents/
<snip>

EOI can now be found at
https://www.nro.gov/foia-home/foia-declassified-nro-programs-and-projects/EOI-Docs/

edit: the (web) masters might actually be moving towards providing a searchable FOIA archive. There is now the option to search the documents for keywords, and the "EOI Documents" link on the webpage does a database search. Google, though, still seems to be the faster search option.
edit 2: attached is the list of the EOI docs with the "KENNEN" keyword (PDF with links to the docs)

[Blackstar]

I think it is worth distinguishing the types of topics: military, civilian, commercial, non-US, etc.

Asif and I had a discussion about this in general over four years ago:

https://www.thespacereview.com/article/4153/1

I'll add some more comments later.

[leovinus]

I think it is worth distinguishing the types of topics: military, civilian, commercial, non-US, etc.

Asif and I had a discussion about this in general over four years ago:

https://www.thespacereview.com/article/4153/1

I'll add some more comments later.

Somehow I missed this back in 2021 but it is a fascinating list and chat. If you want my nerdy input then I’d love to study in Seattle for a month in the Boeing/Douglas archives. They have many of the early 60s technical reports and documents but access is difficult to organize. Next week, related to a recent article, I’ll study for a week in an European archive and I am curious what that will turn up.

[Blackstar]

I think it is worth distinguishing the types of topics: military, civilian, commercial, non-US, etc.

Asif and I had a discussion about this in general over four years ago:

https://www.thespacereview.com/article/4153/1

I'll add some more comments later.

Somehow I missed this back in 2021 but it is a fascinating list and chat. If you want my nerdy input then I’d love to study in Seattle for a month in the Boeing/Douglas archives. They have many of the early 60s technical reports and documents but access is difficult to organize. Next week, related to a recent article, I’ll study for a week in an European archive and I am curious what that will turn up.

If we just want to discuss archives, then JPL is a big one. Very limited access. There's probably all kinds of stuff in there to explore that we don't know about.

[Blackstar]

Ruminating some more:

Civil Space History
The biggest one really is a history of Dan Goldin as NASA administrator. He had a major impact upon the agency, with effects still being felt today.

A history of Project Surveyor. I know I've harped on this before, and it may no longer be possible to write anything detailed. But we have Ranger and Lunar Orbiter histories, but not Surveyor. And as I exposed a year or so ago with my Surveyor sample return and rovers article, there's more that has not been explored.

US Military Space History
The procurement mess of the 2000s-2010s. What the heck happened that resulted in so many programs going so badly? SBIRS and NPOESS are the biggest examples.

Commercial Space History
A deep dive into the history of US commercial spaceflight history. Stop before SpaceX. Go into things like the contractors for NASA and DoD programs, the decision to shut down ELV production and put all payloads on shuttle, the reversal of that decision after Challenger, unusual arrangements like Leasat, etc.

Non-US Military Space History
The French reconnaissance satellite program.


I'm sure I can think of more.

[LittleBird]

Ruminating some more:

Civil Space History
The biggest one really is a history of Dan Goldin as NASA administrator. He had a major impact upon the agency, with effects still being felt today.

A history of Project Surveyor. I know I've harped on this before, and it may no longer be possible to write anything detailed. But we have Ranger and Lunar Orbiter histories, but not Surveyor. And as I exposed a year or so ago with my Surveyor sample return and rovers article, there's more that has not been explored.

US Military Space History
The procurement mess of the 2000s-2010s. What the heck happened that resulted in so many programs going so badly? SBIRS and NPOESS are the biggest examples.

Commercial Space History
A deep dive into the history of US commercial spaceflight history. Stop before SpaceX. Go into things like the contractors for NASA and DoD programs, the decision to shut down ELV production and put all payloads on shuttle, the reversal of that decision after Challenger, unusual arrangements like Leasat, etc.

[...]

I'm sure I can think of more.

Thanks all of you, this discussion is indeed what I envisaged for this thread, but I'm also happy to see where others want to take it.

Blackstar, you've just defined 5 books I'd read just there.

Re this

Non-US Military Space History
The French reconnaissance satellite program.

I think someone (quite possibly you) once told me about a French Masters or PhD thesis (under auspices of CNES?) on this, I'll see if I can track it down. One thing this thread might also do is be a holding place for interesting past theses that might act as points of inspiration for future works.

[TheKutKu]

Ruminating some more:

Civil Space History
The biggest one really is a history of Dan Goldin as NASA administrator. He had a major impact upon the agency, with effects still being felt today.

A history of Project Surveyor. I know I've harped on this before, and it may no longer be possible to write anything detailed. But we have Ranger and Lunar Orbiter histories, but not Surveyor. And as I exposed a year or so ago with my Surveyor sample return and rovers article, there's more that has not been explored.

US Military Space History
The procurement mess of the 2000s-2010s. What the heck happened that resulted in so many programs going so badly? SBIRS and NPOESS are the biggest examples.

Commercial Space History
A deep dive into the history of US commercial spaceflight history. Stop before SpaceX. Go into things like the contractors for NASA and DoD programs, the decision to shut down ELV production and put all payloads on shuttle, the reversal of that decision after Challenger, unusual arrangements like Leasat, etc.

Non-US Military Space History
The French reconnaissance satellite program.


I'm sure I can think of more.

I copied a few sources about the pre-Helios programs on secretproject https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/early-european-earth-observation-satellites-projects.43707/

But yes, anything that actually flew is tight lipped, we don't call it La grande Muette for nothing

[Jim]

Vela
I only found some videos

We have more data on early NRO programs than AF

[Blackstar]

Vela
I only found some videos

We have more data on early NRO programs than AF

There is an official Vela history, right?

But yes, you're right. I think that early military comsat history is not covered very well.

However, the Space Command kept annual histories for a long time and probably still does. I posted some of them in one of these history threads. It would be great if those could be declassified and released for the first several decades.

[Blackstar]

Okay, so the thread title refers to "new data" that has not yet been examined. But I think we could parse that out a bit. (Just to be clear, by "data" we're referring to historical records, for the most part.)

-new data (as in newly declassified records, archives, or records)

-old data that has been around but nobody has really done anything about it

-subjects that should be explored and can be explored, but have not been

-newly emerging/available subjects and data


On the last point, the NRO and the shuttle is one that I think is ripening, but slowly. Jim David and Parker Temple did books that deal with this subject and since their publication, more information has emerged. I've written about that with my articles on DAMON and more recently FARRAH and PARCAE. But there is still a lot more to explore on that matter. Not only the payloads, which remain classified, but internal NRO deliberations about how much they wanted to use the shuttle and for what. We now have an emerging picture of the payload choices by NRO (putting FARRAH and PARCAE on shuttle, then pulling FARRAH off). But we don't have any good insights into whether NRO in the early 1980s considered using shuttle for satellite servicing and/or recovery. It would be great to know more about that.

[leovinus]

There is probably a load of early US nuclear space projects that have not been examined well. Anything nuclear received a high classification at the time. I am thinking roughly 1955 to 1965 and related to General Atomics, Los Alamos, NERVA, DUMBO, Project Orion, pulse fission for space application, etc.

In the spirit of the thread title, I recently learned that Los Alamos reports prefixed "LA-" were are
http://library.lanl.gov/
but not since roughly early 2000sh. However, an archive.org copy is at
https://web.archive.org/web/20070609112746/http://library.lanl.gov/
and four DVDs with Los Alamos reports at

https://sgp.fas.org/othergov/doe/lanl/index1.html
https://sgp.fas.org/othergov/doe/lanl/index2.html
https://sgp.fas.org/othergov/doe/lanl/index3.html
https://sgp.fas.org/othergov/doe/lanl/index4.html

For example, I was interested in "Aspen: An Aerospace Plane with Nuclear Engines.", contract W-7405-ENG-36
NTIS Issue Number 197610 , at
https://ntrl.ntis.gov/NTRL/dashboard/searchResults/titleDetail/LA2590.xhtml
and it said "For abstract, see NSA 33 04, number 08742." which I cannot find.

To clear, I found the PDF and report but the whole number mapping between LA2590 to LA-2590 to a file 0038486.pdf and NSA 33 04, number 08742 is a bit mysterious (in case anyone knows how that works for followup research )

This makes me think there must be a bunch of nuclear spaceflight material from Los Alamos still "out there" for study.

[Blackstar]

There is probably a load of early US nuclear space projects that have not been examined well. Anything nuclear received a high classification at the time. I am thinking roughly 1955 to 1965 and related to General Atomics, Los Alamos, NERVA, DUMBO, Project Orion, pulse fission for space application, etc.

I think that is probably true. There have been books about NERVA and Orion, but I would guess that much of the actual documents about those programs remain classified.

I also don't think anybody has really done a comprehensive history of space nuclear power. The different SNAP RTG and reactor programs, for example. Back around 2012 I got to visit the NASA Plum Brook facility as part of a study I was running and as they were driving us around our guide pointed to a low concrete dome and said that it was one of the old SNAP-8 reactor facilities that was being dismantled. Huh? What the heck is SNAP-8?! I thought. Later I tried doing some research and found very little about SNAP-8. And yet there were at least two reactor facilities at Plum Brook that had done SNAP-8 tests in the 1960s. You will find almost nothing in space history books, and documents were hard to find, but they were smashing neutrons back in the 1960s.

[leovinus]

There is probably a load of early US nuclear space projects that have not been examined well. Anything nuclear received a high classification at the time. I am thinking roughly 1955 to 1965 and related to General Atomics, Los Alamos, NERVA, DUMBO, Project Orion, pulse fission for space application, etc.

I think that is probably true. There have been books about NERVA and Orion, but I would guess that much of the actual documents about those programs remain classified.

I also don't think anybody has really done a comprehensive history of space nuclear power. The different SNAP RTG and reactor programs, for example. Back around 2012 I got to visit the NASA Plum Brook facility as part of a study I was running and as they were driving us around our guide pointed to a low concrete dome and said that it was one of the old SNAP-8 reactor facilities that was being dismantled. Huh? What the heck is SNAP-8?! I thought. Later I tried doing some research and found very little about SNAP-8. And yet there were at least two reactor facilities at Plum Brook that had done SNAP-8 tests in the 1960s. You will find almost nothing in space history books, and documents were hard to find, but they were smashing neutrons back in the 1960s.

Good observation on SNAP-8. I came across the following link
https://www.governmentattic.org/25docs/NASAtechRpts1980older_2017.pdf
with a FOIAd list of NTRS titles and numbers.

Listing of reports categorized as restricted/limited distribution/classified dated 1980 or older from the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) Technical Report database, 2017

While I have a large local list, there are about 140,000 more in there that I have not seen before. As an example with SNAP-8, there are these titles (and more)

1960 19740083304     SNAP-8 PCS program                                                                                                    1960
1960 19750069207     Development of SNAP-8 nuclear power conversion system, model AGAN-0010                                                1960
1962 19700072416     Simplified shield analysis for a preliminary configuration of a SNAP-8 vehicle                                             1962
1962 19740074700     SNAP-8 Preliminary Nuclear Hazards Evaluation                                                                         1962
1962 19740074716     SNAP 11 Surveyor Program                                                                                              1962
1962 19750068715     SNAP-8 PCS program                                                                                                    1962
1962 19750068716     SNAP-8 PCS program                                                                                                    1962
1962 19750069199     SNAP-8 PCS program                                                                                                 1962
1962 19750069393     SNAP-8 development program for Mercury-lubricated bearings: Status and plans                                       1962
1962 19750069394     SNAP-8 PCS Program                                                                                                 1962
1962 19750069395     SNAP-8 PCS-Program                                                                                                 1962
1962 19760071827     SNAP-8 rotating machinery task force review. Volume 3: Calculations                                             
etc

[LittleBird]

For example, I was interested in "Aspen: An Aerospace Plane with Nuclear Engines.", contract W-7405-ENG-36
NTIS Issue Number 197610 , at
https://ntrl.ntis.gov/NTRL/dashboard/searchResults/titleDetail/LA2590.xhtml
and it said "For abstract, see NSA 33 04, number 08742." which I cannot find.

To clear, I found the PDF and report but the whole number mapping between LA2590 to LA-2590 to a file 0038486.pdf and NSA 33 04, number 08742 is a bit mysterious (in case anyone knows how that works for followup research )

Loved that Aspen.

Dimly reminded me that the Pan Am Orion in 2001 was meant to be nuclear powered (or maybe I just read that in an Airfix catalogue ;-)), but either way, reading things like this from 1961 helps explain why Ordway et al could have been thinking along those lines ...

Edit: Came across this gorgeous (McCall?) artwork of the Orion via a comment at TSR. Had to add it below. Though seems that I may have misremembered. According to 2001: The Lost Science this Orion, unlike its namesake, wasn't nuclear ...

[leovinus]

This might be useful as well
https://www.governmentattic.org/docs/Guide_USAF_Hist_Lit_1983.pdf

Guide to Air Force Historical Literature 1943-1983 , Jacob Neufeld Kenneth Schaffel Anne E. Shermer

The Guide to Air Force Historical Literature, 1943-1983, is a compre- hensive listing of histories, monographs, chronologies, and special studies issued by the Office of Air Force History and historical offices throughout the Air Force. It excludes the periodic (monthly, quarterly, semi-annual, annual) com- mand and unit histories. The primary purpose of the Guide is to bring together all of the writings of the Air Force History Program in one convenient bibliog- raphy.

Search for "space" and you find the "Air Force in space history" mentioned a few times. We discussed those documents in other threads. Another one of interest:

18.5 Project Orion: An Air Force Bid for Strategic Role in Space. (S) Ward A. Minge. 1968. 135 pp.