Capcom espace is a good old French website. Online translation of the Europe entry. https://www-capcomespace-net.translate.goog/dossiers/espace_europeen/index.htm?_x_tr_sch=http&_x_tr_sl=fr&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=fr
https://www.esa.int/About_Us/ESA_Publications/ESA_historical_publications
What I would love is a complete set of the ESRO/ELDO Bulletin (precursor to ESA Bulletin).I only have a handful of issues.
Quote from: jcm on 05/05/2024 05:04 pmWhat I would love is a complete set of the ESRO/ELDO Bulletin (precursor to ESA Bulletin).I only have a handful of issues.How many issues are there? I can find that sets of "#1 to #27/1968 to 1975" are not uncommon in european libraries.
Quote from: leovinus on 04/29/2024 04:50 pm Possibly also "The European Space Tug: a Reappraisal 1981" but the JBIS website does not have the article it seems.https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1981JBIS...34..294S/abstractBy the way, I know someone found this for you but in case you or others aren't aware a pretty complete set of JBIS has now joined Spaceflight on archive.org (runs to 2015 iirc).Some fun stuff on Europa II and III for example, e.g. Jan 1970 edition https://archive.org/details/sim_journal-of-the-british-interplanetary-society_january-december-1970_23 has designs for a Europa II with large solids (edit: actually not solids, addiitional Blue Streaks-Delta IV stylee) (see grabs). As with many things on there you need to sign in (I use Google), and the pages don't come out v high res with screen grabbers, but it's OK for browsing imho until BIS does its own scans.
Possibly also "The European Space Tug: a Reappraisal 1981" but the JBIS website does not have the article it seems.https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1981JBIS...34..294S/abstract
Quote from: jcm on 05/05/2024 05:04 pmWhat I would love is a complete set of the ESRO/ELDO Bulletin (precursor to ESA Bulletin).I only have a handful of issues.Good question. Though offline, most of the bulletins should be a Library of Congress https://lccn.loc.gov/76645743> English and French.> Issues for May 1968-<Feb. 1972> issued with European Organisation for the Development and Construction of Space Vehicle Launchers under its variant name: European Space Vehicle Launcher Development Organisation.Anniversary issue here https://esamultimedia.esa.int/multimedia/publications/Miscellaneous/ESRO-ELDO_bulletin24.pdfAnd worth noticing that "ESRO/ELSO bulletin" in English is "Bulletin - CERS/CECLES" in French. As some/all were bi-lingual. In theory you can search for either one.
Quote from: leovinus on 05/05/2024 05:49 pmQuote from: jcm on 05/05/2024 05:04 pmWhat I would love is a complete set of the ESRO/ELDO Bulletin (precursor to ESA Bulletin).I only have a handful of issues.Good question. Though offline, most of the bulletins should be a Library of Congress https://lccn.loc.gov/76645743> English and French.> Issues for May 1968-<Feb. 1972> issued with European Organisation for the Development and Construction of Space Vehicle Launchers under its variant name: European Space Vehicle Launcher Development Organisation.Anniversary issue here https://esamultimedia.esa.int/multimedia/publications/Miscellaneous/ESRO-ELDO_bulletin24.pdfAnd worth noticing that "ESRO/ELSO bulletin" in English is "Bulletin - CERS/CECLES" in French. As some/all were bi-lingual. In theory you can search for either one.Not much help but attached the three bulletins that I have. And look at all 32? front pages athttps://ruimtevaartdatabank.nl/pdfjs/web/viewer.html?file=/library/pdf/7095.pdf#search=&phrase=true
Study of the Use of Post-Apollo Transportation Elements for High-Energy Solar System Exploration Mission (HESSEM), MBB-URV-52(72), N72-33878, June 1972
European space tug system study. Pre-phase A ( MBB-URV-38-71 ] N73-19908
- European space tug system study. Pre-phase A study summary ( MBB-URV-38-71-SUMMARY ] N73-19889- European space tug system study. Pre-phase A study extension ( MBB-URV-44-71 ] N73-19890- European space tug. Phase A study: Comprehensive tug concepts size and systems analysis vs. mission requirement model coverage and program cost, volume 2,summary part1 [ MBB-URV-53-72-VOL-2-PT-1 ] N73-27765
To deepen the discussion, let me add a different angle here. While the ESA history website, AAS history, and Larousse are great for broad history, they are summaries by nature. Like the Cliff-notes. In a way, I'd love to go deep and go from high level summary (e.g. on rocket or upper stage), AAS History article, all the way to original technical reports from CNES, HSD, MBB etc to learn more. For example, for avionics or solarel electric propulsion, you could do a very different job today than in 1970. In the Reusable Agena thread we could do this via NTRS which has many of the primary documents. In Europe, there isn't a similar site to download primary technical documents. Bits and pieces everywhere. Which means that if you want to learn something new or re-interpret the orginal designs from the early 1970s then that is very difficult. The "Europa 1 & 2 manual" I dug up earlier here seems like an exception. As one example, just look at the 146 references in the attached paper and make a guess how many are still retrievable today. Spaceflight history is disappearing before our eyes. As another example, the European Space tug we discussed earlier. The European designs were from Messerschmidt-Boelkow Blohm (MBB) and Hawker-Siddeley Dynamics (HSD). One located tug study was QuoteStudy of the Use of Post-Apollo Transportation Elements for High-Energy Solar System Exploration Mission (HESSEM), MBB-URV-52(72), N72-33878, June 1972 while the related study QuoteEuropean space tug system study. Pre-phase A ( MBB-URV-38-71 ] N73-19908 does not seem to be on the web as PDF anywhere. I am in the process of requesting a copy via DLR in Germany though.STAR tells us there should be at least three more tug studies by MBB Quote- European space tug system study. Pre-phase A study summary ( MBB-URV-38-71-SUMMARY ] N73-19889- European space tug system study. Pre-phase A study extension ( MBB-URV-44-71 ] N73-19890- European space tug. Phase A study: Comprehensive tug concepts size and systems analysis vs. mission requirement model coverage and program cost, volume 2,summary part1 [ MBB-URV-53-72-VOL-2-PT-1 ] N73-27765 but neither DLR nor ESA seem to have copies when I asked them. Also not on NTRS or NTRL. Does one of you know where these 1970s MBB documents ended up? In the shredder? Or transferred via DASA (who acquired MBB) to Airbus and maybe these docs are sitting in an Airbus archive in Bavaria collecting dust? Or are there copies in a dusty attic box somewhere? At a university maybe in Muenchen? Or forgotten copies at NASA? How would you go about to find these reports for further study? Someone will know. Same question of HSD in the UK, and reports in from CNES/France and Italy. I know, not an easy ask. An older but similar question about LMSC lead to the Smithsonian where there are copies while the LMSC libraries are just "gone".For the example of MBB, STAR shows several dozens of reports with there accession numbers like N73-19890. Sadly, NTRL has only has very few copies. There might be more on microfilm as the Smithsonian, for example, but that is hard to check at the moment. For MBB, CNES, Hawker, we located many of these reports and I posted some screenshots in the "Reusable Agena" thread. We could simple ask "Where is the rest of those orginal European studies and who has copies? Where they archived?". Something to think about. I can post some lists from 1969 to 1975 if you'd like to see for a company of choice.
Quote from: leovinus on 05/06/2024 06:04 pmTo deepen the discussion, let me add a different angle here. While the ESA history website, AAS history, and Larousse are great for broad history, they are summaries by nature. Like the Cliff-notes. In a way, I'd love to go deep and go from high level summary (e.g. on rocket or upper stage), AAS History article, all the way to original technical reports from CNES, HSD, MBB etc to learn more. For example, for avionics or solarel electric propulsion, you could do a very different job today than in 1970. In the Reusable Agena thread we could do this via NTRS which has many of the primary documents. In Europe, there isn't a similar site to download primary technical documents. Bits and pieces everywhere. Which means that if you want to learn something new or re-interpret the orginal designs from the early 1970s then that is very difficult. The "Europa 1 & 2 manual" I dug up earlier here seems like an exception. As one example, just look at the 146 references in the attached paper and make a guess how many are still retrievable today. Spaceflight history is disappearing before our eyes. As another example, the European Space tug we discussed earlier. The European designs were from Messerschmidt-Boelkow Blohm (MBB) and Hawker-Siddeley Dynamics (HSD). One located tug study was QuoteStudy of the Use of Post-Apollo Transportation Elements for High-Energy Solar System Exploration Mission (HESSEM), MBB-URV-52(72), N72-33878, June 1972 while the related study QuoteEuropean space tug system study. Pre-phase A ( MBB-URV-38-71 ] N73-19908 does not seem to be on the web as PDF anywhere. I am in the process of requesting a copy via DLR in Germany though.STAR tells us there should be at least three more tug studies by MBB Quote- European space tug system study. Pre-phase A study summary ( MBB-URV-38-71-SUMMARY ] N73-19889- European space tug system study. Pre-phase A study extension ( MBB-URV-44-71 ] N73-19890- European space tug. Phase A study: Comprehensive tug concepts size and systems analysis vs. mission requirement model coverage and program cost, volume 2,summary part1 [ MBB-URV-53-72-VOL-2-PT-1 ] N73-27765 but neither DLR nor ESA seem to have copies when I asked them. Also not on NTRS or NTRL. Does one of you know where these 1970s MBB documents ended up? In the shredder? Or transferred via DASA (who acquired MBB) to Airbus and maybe these docs are sitting in an Airbus archive in Bavaria collecting dust? Or are there copies in a dusty attic box somewhere? At a university maybe in Muenchen? Or forgotten copies at NASA? How would you go about to find these reports for further study? Someone will know. Same question of HSD in the UK, and reports in from CNES/France and Italy. I know, not an easy ask. An older but similar question about LMSC lead to the Smithsonian where there are copies while the LMSC libraries are just "gone".For the example of MBB, STAR shows several dozens of reports with there accession numbers like N73-19890. Sadly, NTRL has only has very few copies. There might be more on microfilm as the Smithsonian, for example, but that is hard to check at the moment. For MBB, CNES, Hawker, we located many of these reports and I posted some screenshots in the "Reusable Agena" thread. We could simple ask "Where is the rest of those orginal European studies and who has copies? Where they archived?". Something to think about. I can post some lists from 1969 to 1975 if you'd like to see for a company of choice.There's just not the same tradition of industrial history in Europe as in the USA.
The consolidation and gradual privatisation of the european aerospace industry has also been terrible for the availability of many archives. For something as old as the 60s, in a lot of case archiving i s only done by enthusiast former employees. On top of that ESA and the national space agency doesn't have the same tradition of openness to the public/taxpayers as NASA. And finally "internetisation" in some of these old structures isn't as advanced as in the US.
I have been impressed for example by the archival donation of local aerospace history documents that has occurred to the Huntington museum in Pasadena of which one or two have been shown in exhibitions.What would a European analogue to this look like ?
I should also have mentioned "Fire Across the Desert" by "peter Morton" which covers Woomera launches from 1946-1980 and also "Woomera" by Ivan Southall my copy of which was published in Sydney by Angus & Robertson in 1962.Carl
I'll be interested, for sure !
<snip>And look at all 32? front pages athttps://ruimtevaartdatabank.nl/pdfjs/web/viewer.html?file=/library/pdf/7095.pdf#search=&phrase=true
Quote from: leovinus on 05/05/2024 07:10 pm<snip>And look at all 32? front pages athttps://ruimtevaartdatabank.nl/pdfjs/web/viewer.html?file=/library/pdf/7095.pdf#search=&phrase=trueAh yes. NRM archive location-ID BU-009-05-D-03 (BUnker, shelving unit 009, case 05, shelf D, box 03)In case you wondered how I know this: I was going thru these very ESRO/ELDO bulletins during archive duty last week.
As another example, the European Space tug we discussed earlier. The European designs were from Messerschmidt-Boelkow Blohm (MBB) and Hawker-Siddeley Dynamics (HSD). One located tug study was QuoteStudy of the Use of Post-Apollo Transportation Elements for High-Energy Solar System Exploration Mission (HESSEM), MBB-URV-52(72), N72-33878, June 1972 while the related study QuoteEuropean space tug system study. Pre-phase A ( MBB-URV-38-71 ] N73-19908 does not seem to be on the web as PDF anywhere. I am in the process of requesting a copy via DLR in Germany though.
In 1971, CRYOROCKET under a CECLES/ELDO contract , order at SEP a study for small NTR engine It had to be launch as third stage on Europa III rocket. for a larger payload than 1,680 kg into from a 200km circular orbit to a 36,000 geostationary orbit.(Europa III in two stage configuration)The stage's mass is 5.5 tons for an estimated ISP of 815s The thrust was quite low, with about 2 kN.the Europa III would bring the third stage in 200 km circular orbit A first burn would bring the payload to a transfer orbit, while a second, after a ballistic phase, would go to Geostationary orbit. (stage remain in GEO ?)
Quote from: woods170 on 05/16/2024 06:55 pmQuote from: leovinus on 05/05/2024 07:10 pm<snip>And look at all 32? front pages athttps://ruimtevaartdatabank.nl/pdfjs/web/viewer.html?file=/library/pdf/7095.pdf#search=&phrase=trueAh yes. NRM archive location-ID BU-009-05-D-03 (BUnker, shelving unit 009, case 05, shelf D, box 03)In case you wondered how I know this: I was going thru these very ESRO/ELDO bulletins during archive duty last week.Jealous Any more gems in archive related to above discussion? And not in other ESA et al archives?
on ESRO/ELDO documents there spread out over EuropeMostly ELDO documents are store in Archive in Italy, Turin if recall right.(unclear it still exist) The rest in Netherlands, ESA HQ Paris and some copies at EU in Brussels.But also in ELDO member state have allot documents on Europa rocket hardware Like Britain on Blue Streak in National archives spread out over kingdom.Same goes for France or Germany were documents mostly found in university library.
Quote from: leovinus on 05/06/2024 06:04 pmAs another example, the European Space tug we discussed earlier. The European designs were from Messerschmidt-Boelkow Blohm (MBB) and Hawker-Siddeley Dynamics (HSD). One located tug study was QuoteStudy of the Use of Post-Apollo Transportation Elements for High-Energy Solar System Exploration Mission (HESSEM), MBB-URV-52(72), N72-33878, June 1972 while the related study QuoteEuropean space tug system study. Pre-phase A ( MBB-URV-38-71 ] N73-19908 does not seem to be on the web as PDF anywhere. I am in the process of requesting a copy via DLR in Germany though.The DLR archives graciously sent me a copy of the missing report MBB-URV-38-71 for further study. I think it will clarify some aspects. Happy to know that we can still access at least some of these reports.
Europa II was like the Monty Pythons Swamp castle. When it wasn't the fairing being stuck, it was Astris not starting, and when both worked by some miracle, Coralie went astray. As you say: zero coordination between too many countries. Interesting to know this applied to technical documentation, hence archives afterwards...
<snip>The Europa II Failure report by Otto Kayser reads more like death sentence for entire Europa rocket program...
Quote from: Michel Van on 05/22/2024 10:31 am<snip>The Europa II Failure report by Otto Kayser reads more like death sentence for entire Europa rocket program... The main lesson-learned from Europa was the need for a strong and central design, construction and test authority. For Arianes 1 - 5 the French space agency CNES was assigned this role, and it was quite successful.
Roy Dommett. ‘Silos for Blue Streak’, unpublished essay (1998). Dommett mentions that 60 such silos would have required all the concrete used to build the British motorway system as it existed in 1998. His paper was written for a British Rocketry Oral History Programme directed by Dave Wright.
Interesting-looking book chapter by sometime ESA historian John Krige about UK and ELDO. Krige, J. (2020). Remain or Leave? Britain and the European Launcher Development Organisation (ELDO) in the Context of Brexit. In: Broad, M., Kansikas, S. (eds) European Integration Beyond Brussels. Security, Conflict and Cooperation in the Contemporary World. Palgrave Macmillan, Cham. https://doi.org/10.1007/978-3-030-45445-6_11It is paywalled at https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-45445-6_11 but the references are all online and many may be of interest. One or two footnotes are delightful in their own right:QuoteRoy Dommett. ‘Silos for Blue Streak’, unpublished essay (1998). Dommett mentions that 60 such silos would have required all the concrete used to build the British motorway system as it existed in 1998. His paper was written for a British Rocketry Oral History Programme directed by Dave Wright.
Quote from: leovinus on 05/17/2024 09:54 pmQuote from: leovinus on 05/06/2024 06:04 pmAs another example, the European Space tug we discussed earlier. The European designs were from Messerschmidt-Boelkow Blohm (MBB) and Hawker-Siddeley Dynamics (HSD). One located tug study was QuoteStudy of the Use of Post-Apollo Transportation Elements for High-Energy Solar System Exploration Mission (HESSEM), MBB-URV-52(72), N72-33878, June 1972 while the related study QuoteEuropean space tug system study. Pre-phase A ( MBB-URV-38-71 ] N73-19908 does not seem to be on the web as PDF anywhere. I am in the process of requesting a copy via DLR in Germany though.The DLR archives graciously sent me a copy of the missing report MBB-URV-38-71 for further study. I think it will clarify some aspects. Happy to know that we can still access at least some of these reports.I'm not sure what's their policy/legal status, but I'd definitely appreciate if you could share some informations from these reports whenever you have the time. Thanks.
one of wildes proposal for Europa Rocket:Etude d'un etage nucleare pour launceur lourd Europeen by J.A. Dupont of SNECMA, 1962a Nuclear powered stage for large launch vehicle that bring 10 ton in low earth orbitBy A Graphite-moderated uranium 235 reactor in which hydrogen is heated to 2500K°Yielding a ISP of 800 sec.The substitution of single nuclear stage for both upper stages of ELDO vehicle,Mr Dupont said, should make it possible to double the payload/initial weight ratioSource:Flight International 6 June 1963 page 892but it not stop here, ELDO was study powerful upper stage to bring Satellites into GEO next Ion - arc jet engines, were also Nerva type engine in consideration In 1971, CRYOROCKET under a CECLES/ELDO contract , order at SEP a study for small NTR engine It had to be launch as third stage on Europa III rocket. for a larger payload than 1,680 kg into from a 200km circular orbit to a 36,000 geostationary orbit.(Europa III in two stage configuration)The stage's mass is 5.5 tons for an estimated ISP of 815s The thrust was quite low, with about 2 kN.the Europa III would bring the third stage in 200 km circular orbit A first burn would bring the payload to a transfer orbit, while a second, after a ballistic phase, would go to Geostationary orbit. (stage remain in GEO ?) source: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/early-european-rocketry-projects.4130/post-675091
"Propulsion d'engins spatiaux au moyen d'un reacteur nucleair de faible puissance" P. Blanc J P Contzen pp 297-308 17 pages N70-12256 ELDO-Publ-21
[speculative mode ON]End result, circa 1968: a Blue Streak with two boosters and an hydrolox stage 2. I did some calculations: performance would be close from an Atlas Centaur. 4 mt to LEO, 1 mt to escape velocity. [speculative mode OFF]
Seems the university library of Darmstadt has allot ELDO paper and Literature since i go to visit the City i will take a look into that library
Did you manage your visit yet?
Quote from: leovinus on 06/30/2024 04:45 pmDid you manage your visit yet? yes i found the Aerospace section at Lichtwiese and copy some stuff about P111 aka HDTW Engine by MBB sadly it take long time before i can revisit Darmstadt but i try to get access to Aachen university Aerospace library.however this has restricted access and this under surveillance.Too many books there went missing by irresponsible student...
Great to heat you managed your in-person Darmstadt visit. As you mention Aachen, I know they have an air-space section but I never connected that in my mind with history, ELDO and the Europa rocket. Anything in particular you are chasing?
Sidenote: Actually, I used to live in Aachen for many years. Still have friends there. I wondered whether you mean the library at the Eupener/Weisshausstrasse which would be where I worked in the past. Small world
Quote from: leovinus on 07/02/2024 11:01 amGreat to heat you managed your in-person Darmstadt visit. As you mention Aachen, I know they have an air-space section but I never connected that in my mind with history, ELDO and the Europa rocket. Anything in particular you are chasing?The university of Darmstadt And Aachen are very active in German Spaceflight Darmstadt was involved in P111 engine project While Aachen was involved in Sanger 2 project with counter study to the Concept
Quote from: leovinus on 07/02/2024 11:01 amSidenote: Actually, I used to live in Aachen for many years. Still have friends there. I wondered whether you mean the library at the Eupener/Weisshausstrasse which would be where I worked in the past. Small world The former Phillips research center ? not yet.i dig true the decentralised library system of Aachen universitymain issue: it seems the Aerospace library is dived between Aerospace and Jet/rocket engine research centers and both have restricted access...
Quote from: leovinus on 06/30/2024 04:45 pmDid you manage your visit yet? yes i found the Aerospace section at Lichtwiese and copy some stuff about P111 aka HDTW Engine by MBB
Quote from: Michel Van on 07/01/2024 11:14 pmand copy some stuff about P111 aka HDTW Engine by MBB Damn! Did you find some interesting information about this fascinating engine?
and copy some stuff about P111 aka HDTW Engine by MBB
And some more French "Europa launcher" history via a previous thread titled "French Rocket program videos and engineerings films. "
baigar said:Based in Munich, so if you have a spot to visit there I can maybe of help. In the Flugwerft Schliessheim, an outpost of the Deutsches Museum, they had an almost complete ELDO on display but in the recent re-organization some parts disappeared and now only the lower stage (blue streak) is still there :-(
I got this info, what scare the hell out meThis Europa II rocket was last intact version !I have to find out what happen...Quotebaigar said:Based in Munich, so if you have a spot to visit there I can maybe of help. In the Flugwerft Schliessheim, an outpost of the Deutsches Museum, they had an almost complete ELDO on display but in the recent re-organization some parts disappeared and now only the lower stage (blue streak) is still there :-(
the Personell annoyed by my request and visit.
i struck gold on P111- H20 engine and Ophos upper stage for Thor booster
In an old conference article, I see a picture of a MBB 111 Topping Cycle engine (LOX/RP1) but is that same one that you mean with "P111"? If yes then what does the "P" stand for?
"Wärmeübergangsuntersuchungen an Raketentriebwerken mit Flüssigsauerstoffkühlung"
Quote from: leovinus on 07/14/2024 01:04 pm In an old conference article, I see a picture of a MBB 111 Topping Cycle engine (LOX/RP1) but is that same one that you mean with "P111"? If yes then what does the "P" stand for?From the book about Bölkow: The Bölkow company received in 1956 the research project "P111.1" from the defense department."Wärmeübergangsuntersuchungen an Raketentriebwerken mit Flüssigsauerstoffkühlung"Temperature transfer characteristics on rocket engines with lox cooling.There they build combustion chambers with axially milled 0.3mm wide cooling channels. But that was a very small predecessor with only 100N thrust. Seems like the name stuck.That later bigger one can be seen in the museum of munich:https://digital.deutsches-museum.de/de/digital-catalogue/collection-object/2001-746T1/
Quote from: Michel Van on 07/28/2024 09:12 amI got this info, what scare the hell out meThis Europa II rocket was last intact version !I have to find out what happen...Quotebaigar said:Based in Munich, so if you have a spot to visit there I can maybe of help. In the Flugwerft Schliessheim, an outpost of the Deutsches Museum, they had an almost complete ELDO on display but in the recent re-organization some parts disappeared and now only the lower stage (blue streak) is still there :-(I was there a few weeks ago. Earlier the rocket and its stages were lined up at one wall of the great hall. Now the first stage was moved about 15m aways. You can walk on this bridge structure, but the view is not great. The other stages are farther away. But that parts are not accessible at the moment. There are barriers. The upper stages are about 10..20m away from the closest point. So dispersed and badly accessible. The museum is rearranging things, they wrote it at the entrance.
The patent numbers shown in the description are of some subassemblies like the servo valves.The name of "Karl Stöckel" should lead to something, but neither on google nor on the germant patent databases can I find it. Also 977752 should be the patentnumber. See first picture. Some of these patents should also lead to the ssme engine.Second picture is a H20. Really amazing how far ahead they were.Edit: Okay, here we go: https://patents.google.com/?inventor=Karl+Dipl-Ing+StoeckelEdit2: Here is 977752 https://patents.google.com/patent/DE977752C/and now I understand: the left schematic is the patent from 1942, the right one from 1955
The patent numbers shown in the description are of some subassemblies like the servo valves.
The name of "Karl Stöckel" should lead to something, but neither on google nor on the germant patent databases can I find it. Also 977752 should be the patentnumber. See first picture. Some of these patents should also lead to the ssme engine.[snip]Edit: Okay, here we go: https://patents.google.com/?inventor=Karl+Dipl-Ing+StoeckelEdit2: Here is 977752 https://patents.google.com/patent/DE977752C/and now I understand: the left schematic is the patent from 1942, the right one from 1955
Quote"Wärmeübergangsuntersuchungen an Raketentriebwerken mit Flüssigsauerstoffkühlung"No offense to Germans but - WOOF, that's one heck of a word & letter salad.
During 1972 France and Germany look into alternatives for Europa IIIB consider to expensive and too complex do hydrolox second stage with high pressure engine.The German Ministry of sciences and Technology order studiesnext infamous ORTAG was also M.A.N or Machinenfabrik Augstburg NürnbergThere concept Europa III ME using first stage of Europa III B with upper stage of Europa II rocket.Note: L110 =liquid fuel propellant in metric tons - P1,8 =Solid propellant in metric tonsEuropa II E (ready for 1978) is Europa II rocket were Blue streak is replace by L110 stage based on L150 from Europa III B proposal 200kg payload into GEOEuropa III ME (ready for 1979)two L110 stage as Booster (give it a Titan IIIC look)modified L110 with two Viking II vacuum engines second stage stretch Coralie with 5 metric ton more fuelP1.8 solid motor 750 kg into GEO 1400 kg with four L110 booster (ready for 1983)From 1985 onwards M.A.N. wanted to use high energy upper stage*this increase the Payload to 2000 kg into GTO with two booster 3000 kg into GTO with Four * high energy upper stage means in 1972 either hydrolox, Fluorine/hydrogen , Nerva engine, Ion or arc jet.In France were also Studies made for Alternative in CNES a team around Roland Deschamps and Michel Bignier proposed: Europa III de Substitution (E III S)L150 from Europa IIIB program L35 with Viking II vacuum engineH6 with hydrolox using a french HM6 engine with four nozzle.payload 1560 kg into GTO and 750 kg into GEO. Then in 1973 the Europa rocket program died with ELDO/ESRO, replace by ESA.France took over the ESA rocket program under CNES and they took E III S proposal.modified it for better Performance replace the HM6 by HM7 engine.it got also new name proposed were VEGA, Phoenix but it became Ariane... Ironic German M.A.N became main contractor for Ariane Program Source:Europa III ME Entwurf einer Wirtschaftliche Trägerrakete M.A.N. neue Technologie 1972.PDF to find here https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/early-european-rocketry-projects.4130/post-586968
Van der Heem also developed and built a program unit that is used to keep the different stages of a rocket of the European Space program in the correct orbit. This concerns equipment for determining both the force and the direction of the various thrusters and control missiles in the three stages of the missile. The first launches took place in 1966 in Woomera, Australia.
Quote from: LittleBird on 05/06/2024 08:48 pmI have been impressed for example by the archival donation of local aerospace history documents that has occurred to the Huntington museum in Pasadena of which one or two have been shown in exhibitions.What would a European analogue to this look like ?The British Library pointed me to Cranfield University, UK, where there are a few more relevant Hawker Siddeley Dynamics documents One is even called "The space tug situation" by HSD, 1971. Another "Blue streak/Centaur launcher"
Making progress with the study of primary materials to compare MBB vs HSD space tugs. Via a pleasant visit at The British Library, I managed to read a version of the "Phase A Study" "Part 2 Report Presentation" "EUROPEAN SPACE TUG" study by HSD from 1972.
Quote from: leovinus on 08/27/2024 05:30 pmMaking progress with the study of primary materials to compare MBB vs HSD space tugs. Via a pleasant visit at The British Library, I managed to read a version of the "Phase A Study" "Part 2 Report Presentation" "EUROPEAN SPACE TUG" study by HSD from 1972. When was the decision made to not have Europe build the space tug?
The Group of European Companies set up in July 1970 for the initial ELDO Pre-Phase A Study has remained together right up to the cancellation of the Phase A Study in July 1972.
Finally, a presentation has been prepared for the projected discussions at NASA, Huntsville of July 1972.
I would not jump to that conclusion. The decision to cancel European participation in the space tug could have been made by the US before the study contract itself was canceled. It might only be a matter of days, but I suspect that the European study members were the last ones to know.
It quickly emerged that it would be precipitate to meet in July, as originally envisaged. The nature of Europe's participation in the post-Apollo programme was one reason for the delay. On 5 January 1972 Nixon had approved the space Shuttle programme. At the same time post-Apollo had undergone major changes. The space station concept had been radically altered and its development put back to after that of the Shuttle. The design of the Shuttle itself had been changed, leaving only parts of it really reusable, and the elements in which Europe could participate were reduced from twelve to five. To clarify matters the Ministers agreed that a high-level European delegation should visit NASA in June. There, to their amazement, the tug was withdrawn, the number of Shuttle elements was reduced even further to four, all of relatively minor technological interest to Europe, and "the talks on European participation - which was still desired - were suddenly focussed on the sortie module alone" 1097 This was a Shuttle-borne, shirt-sleeve environment laboratory for scientific research under low-gravity conditions in fields like biomedicine and materials science. Work on the tug was stopped, Shuttle technology studies were wound down and ESO immediately intensified its work on a European sortie module concept in consultation with NASA.
We could argue that the faith of the European tug was taken probably determined on January 5th 1972 as collateral damage of all post-Apollo changes in the US. Am still looking for a "smoking gun" American memo from that time which says clearly "do not fund
This is probably documented, maybe in Spires' book on USAF space transportation. https://www.maxwell.af.mil/News/Display/Article/3053973/air-university-press-releases-single-volume-overview-of-afs-space-launch-support/
Quote from: leovinus on 08/27/2024 09:37 pmWe could argue that the faith of the European tug was taken probably determined on January 5th 1972 as collateral damage of all post-Apollo changes in the US. Am still looking for a "smoking gun" American memo from that time which says clearly "do not fund What I remember is that it was the US Department of Defense that said no to the Europeans building the tug. The reason was that they did not want a non-American company in the critical path for the shuttle ("critical path" was a term referring to anything that was vital for the shuttle to achieve its mission).
My guess is that there was some kind of joint NASA-DoD shuttle coordination meeting where DoD objected to the Europeans building the tug. This is probably documented, maybe in Spires' book on USAF space transportation.
As for the development cost of Europa IIIB, this was estimated at 470 MAU plus a 20% contingency,which took the total to 565 MAU (or FF Delta38 million) at spring 1971 prices and exchange rates.The German delegation found this far too expensive, and demanded that a number of alternativeconfigurations without a cryogenic upper stage be studied. All of these so-called low-cost solutionscame out more expensive than Europa IIIB, however. In addition, they posed problems ofgeographical return and, since Germany suggested making using of solid fuelled boosters developed inthe French Military Programme, raised issues of technology transfer, access by foreigners to Frenchindustry, and so on.1213 Defeated, in June the ELDO Council decided to abandon the idea, and to passthe whole question of Europa III on to a Ministerial meeting then being planned.1214Ministers met informally on 19 May 1972 to plan this gathering.1215 It quickly emerged that a meetingin July, as originally envisaged, would be much too early. The nature of Europe's participation in thepost-Apollo Programme was uppermost in their minds. On 5 January 1972, Nixon had approved thespace Shuttle Programme. Around that decision, between December 1971 and February 1972 theProgramme had undergone major changes. The space station concept had been radically altered and itsdevelopment put back to after that of the Shuttle. The design of the latter had also undergone majorchanges, resulting in only parts of it being really reusable, and the scope for European participationbeing reduced from 12 elements to five. If in 1971 NASA had strongly encouraged the Europeans tobe involved in the space tug – intended to carry a payload from the Shuttle up to geostationary orbit –now they were beginning to suggest that they might like to participate in the development of the sortiemodule, a Shuttle-borne, shirt-sleeve environment laboratory for scientific research. To clarify matters the Ministers agreed that a high-level European delegation should visit NASA in June. There, to theiramazement, the tug was withdrawn, the number of Shuttle elements was reduced to four, all ofrelatively minor technological interest to Europe, and "the talks on European participation which (was)still desired – were suddenly focussed on the sortie module alone". Work on the tug was stopped,Shuttle technology studies were wound down and ESRO immediately intensified its work on aEuropean sortie module concept in consultation with NASA. Final selection was scheduled forOctober 1972, whereupon the scheme would be presented to Ministers, who would have to decide ifthey wanted to embark on it. 12161213 Low Cost Launchers. Conclusions of the Europa III Ad Hoc Group, ELDO/C(72)14 Add, 30 May 1972(ELDO1561). For the French position see the Annex to ELDO/C(72)19, 29 May 1972 (ELDO 1566).1214 See minutes of the 57th ELDO Council, 8 June 1972, ELDO/C(72)PV/3, 16 June 1972 (ESC 1545)1215 The minutes of this Informal Ministerial Meeting - 19th May 1972 are in (ESC 1473).1216 The quotations are from the Report by the Secretary General of the European Space Conference on theStatus of European Space Programmes, CSE/CM(October 72)WP1, 12 October 1972 (ESC 116)
Excellent research about the US events in spring 1972. As for Europe... (I thought I had already posted it before, elsewhere. Whatever. A history of ESA, published in 1987. Page 396 of the pdf.- Or maybe I just forgot I had already posted it.)
Quote from: Spiceman on 08/28/2024 03:49 pmExcellent research about the US events in spring 1972. As for Europe... (I thought I had already posted it before, elsewhere. Whatever. A history of ESA, published in 1987. Page 396 of the pdf.- Or maybe I just forgot I had already posted it.) Thanks for the context and links! Indeed, we discussed the "history of ESA" document earlier in the Reusable Agena thread where the tug also came up.For the European side of the tug cancellation, I had a look at the ESC memos 0635, 0636, 0637, and 0654 via the ESA Archives. Very informative but the eye opener for me was the US White House memo by Nixon from May 18th, 1972.
<snip>On May 18th, 1972, President Nixon writes memo 52406 on "Post-Apollo relationships with the Europeans" to Kissinger and Peter Flaningan . President Nixon says "I am opposed to European development of the tug"<snip>
Quote from: leovinus on 08/28/2024 03:18 pm<snip>On May 18th, 1972, President Nixon writes memo 52406 on "Post-Apollo relationships with the Europeans" to Kissinger and Peter Flaningan . President Nixon says "I am opposed to European development of the tug"<snip> Surely that memo is from Ed David, not Nixon himself ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_E._David_Jr.His name, as head of PSAC, pops up in a space related context quite often in Shuttle, Kennen etc histories iirc.THe Aerospace studies I mention in previous post must have been an important element of the "further review" he mentions. Surely NRO must have asked a few pointed questions about GEO at some point, perhaps via Aerospace ?
Quote from: leovinus on 08/29/2024 12:54 pmQuote from: Spiceman on 08/28/2024 03:49 pmExcellent research about the US events in spring 1972. As for Europe... (I thought I had already posted it before, elsewhere. Whatever. A history of ESA, published in 1987. Page 396 of the pdf.- Or maybe I just forgot I had already posted it.) Thanks for the context and links! Indeed, we discussed the "history of ESA" document earlier in the Reusable Agena thread where the tug also came up.For the European side of the tug cancellation, I had a look at the ESC memos 0635, 0636, 0637, and 0654 via the ESA Archives. Very informative but the eye opener for me was the US White House memo by Nixon from May 18th, 1972.I think the list of topics Aerospace had been asked to study before the cancellation is also v illuminating, see https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=11111.msg2588574#msg2588574 from which grab below is repeated.
Quote from: LittleBird on 08/29/2024 03:41 pmQuote from: leovinus on 08/29/2024 12:54 pmQuote from: Spiceman on 08/28/2024 03:49 pmExcellent research about the US events in spring 1972. As for Europe... (I thought I had already posted it before, elsewhere. Whatever. A history of ESA, published in 1987. Page 396 of the pdf.- Or maybe I just forgot I had already posted it.) Thanks for the context and links! Indeed, we discussed the "history of ESA" document earlier in the Reusable Agena thread where the tug also came up.For the European side of the tug cancellation, I had a look at the ESC memos 0635, 0636, 0637, and 0654 via the ESA Archives. Very informative but the eye opener for me was the US White House memo by Nixon from May 18th, 1972.I think the list of topics Aerospace had been asked to study before the cancellation is also v illuminating, see https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=11111.msg2588574#msg2588574 from which grab below is repeated.Nice find. Do I see that right that this one page is from study NASw-2301, "Analysis of Space Tug Operating Techniques Final Report (Study 2.4) Volume I: Executive Summary" from August 1972? ? The statement "This effort was not expended due to cancellation of the ELDO Subsystem Review Meetings as a result of the termination of the ELDO Tug activities" is pretty explicit and the timing of August 1972 does fit nicely with the other dates we found.
So the evidence is that the White House cancelled the European tug on May 18th and the June 1st memo confirms it was with the President's blessing. Ok, then we are still looking for an instruction by Nixon himself from before May 18th, and possibly a memo from DoD to the White House with a negative recommendation on the tug before that. Both of which could have been verbally in which case there won't be a record.
■EUROPA 3B: THE CRYOROCKET PERIOD AND THE H20 STAGEOn April 15, 1969, the new Europa III B launcher selected by ELDO was a 2-stage launcher. The first with 120 tons of storable propellants and 4 Viking engines, the second with 20 tons of cryogenic propellants and a closed cycle engine with 20,000 daN of thrust. This program was intended to be cuting-edge, because such an engine only existed in the United States at the time. This was in 1969, but the project was abandoned in December 1972 and it is only today, in 2010, that Europe is finally acquiring an advanced technology engine (VINCI engine).In its concept, the stage included 2 tanks with separate bulkheads. The LH2 tank in the upper part was pressurized with hydrogen taken from the engine and the LOX tank in the lower part with helium contained in spheres immersed in the LH2 tank and heated in the engine pre-chamber beforehand.To be clear, this H20 stage (pronounced H twenty) was of German design and the engine, which we will also call "H20" had been designed by the MBB company. A GIE (Consortium) called CRYOROCKET (50% MBB, 50% SEP) had been created to carry out this project. As a whole, the engine was completely linear with an in-line turbopump extended by the combustion chamber.The distribution of responsibilities assigned the turbopump to the SEP and the main chamber to MBB. The "stage" aspects were divided between ERNO, FOKKER, Air Liquide. Functionally, we see that the turbopump consists of an oxygen pump, a hydrogen pump and a pre-chamber containing the turbine that drives the pumps. Before being injected into the pre-chamber, almost all of the LH2 flow is used to cool the combustion chamber and the divergent. Only a small part of the LOX flow is injected into the pre-chamber, so as to provide power to the turbine with a reasonable temperature of 1080 K. The mixture thus produced is then injected into the main chamber where it meets the rest of the LOX (the largest part).Page 2:Block Diagram (flow in kg/s)H2 Tank pressurisationRoll ControlEngine:Thrust: 20,000 daNIsp: 448sRotation speed: 39,390 rot/minMixture Ratio: 6:1Burn Duration: 448sChamber:Chamber Pressure: 130 BarMixture ratio: 6.4Gas temperature: 3636kFlow rate of hot Gases: 11.59 kg/sFlow rate LOX: 33.41 kg/sPumps (LOX/LH2): P at entry (bar) 3.1 / 2.1Delta P (bar): 264.9 / 249.3Flow rate (kg/s): 39.02 / 6.58Wheel diameter (cm) : 88.6 / 254.7Power output (KW): 1,468/4,982Pre-Chamber/TurbineP Pre-Chamber: 215 BarGas temperature: 1,082KH2 Flow: 5.97 kg/s (at 160K)Flow LOX: 5.61 kg/sMixture ratio: 0.92:1Turbine power output: 6,500 KWPage 3As early as 1969, SEP therefore began to define this monumental turbopump shown above. The oxygen pump has 1 stage, the hydrogen pump 2 stages, the annular prechamber feeds a single-stage turbine. Since the propellants are not hypergolic, the prechamber (and the chamber) are ignited by a fluorine cartridge. A reserve of GH2 is used to start the turbine.What work was carried out?A layout model shown below was used to define the passage of the propellant lines along and inside the thrust cone.Small-scale tests (HM7)To better understand the validity of certain options chosen for H20, small-scale tests were carried out in 1972 on the hydrogen and oxygen pumps of the HM7. Thus, on the H2 pump, open-air tests (with the aim of reducing the cost of the tests) demonstrated that it was perfectly possible to establish an air-LH2 similarity of most of the hydraulic characteristics of a hydrogen pump.Page 4:On the O2 Pump, different inducers were tested and the performance of a 24-blade Rolls Royce pump was compared to that of a 24-blade SEP pump, without any significant advantage for one or the other emerging.Above, LOX Input and Output (LOX Input is through the Gimbal), Engine Gimbal is of 5° in all directionsAbove, LH2 Input and Output (Prechamber and Chamber are not installed)Subscale LOX Inducers tests (HM7)Page 5Full-scale testsIn 1973, full-scale dynamic tests on the centrifugation bench made it possible to check the performance of the hydrogen pump's flanged wheels.Similarly, on this bench, a simplified rotor (without blades) was tested in order to identify the first critical speed and the balancing of the rotating assembly.H2 Wheel Before/After FlangeingPage 6:But on December 20, 1972; the project was abruptly stopped, replaced by the L3S which would become Ariane.Centrifuging bench.THE ROTOR IS DRIVEN BY HYDROGEN GAS (ONE INLET, 2 OUTLETS) THEN BURNS IN A TORCH.THE BEARINGS Are standard materials, therefore very different from the final bearings. ARE LUBRICATED BY AN OIL-NITROGEN AEROSOLSPEED REACHED 42,000 RPM, CRITICAL SPEED: 31,000 RPM.
The ESA Archives needs your help - appeal for donationsTue, 12/11/2024 - 08:38Throughout 2024 the ESA Archives has been marking the 60th anniversary of the creation of ESA’s forerunners, ELDO and ESRO, with news articles and related content on this portal, and openings of digitised collections in the SHIP database.The process of research behind this has highlighted some of the most pressing gaps in our holdings and has prompted this appeal to ESA colleagues and to the wider space community: can you help us fill them in?We are seeking donations of material related to the European space organisations COPERS, ELDO and ESRO which operated throughout the 1960s and early 1970s, prior to the creation of ESA in 1975. So, if you worked for one of them, or worked with colleagues who did, you may have inherited documentation from this period and you might be exactly who we need to hear from!In return, we can help you to ensure that your information is safely preserved for future generations in line with professional archival standards.
First opening of the ESRO and ESA Special Publications seriesTue, 25/02/2025 - 16:29Despite the changing seasons, some of the fundamental work in the ESA Archives is ongoing, including our digitisation efforts. Our first opening for 2025 consists of a first tranche of material from the collection of ESA Special Publications and Special Publications produced by its predecessor ESRO (The European Space Research Organisation). These digitised highlights focus on publications related to events and include proceedings from early ESRO and ESA sponsored conferences and from ESA commemorative events.[snip]The recently digitised selection consists of 16 editions. It includes 13 ESRO and ESA SP publications related to conferences held in the 1960s and 1970s. Seven of these are ESRO SPs, with the rest from the early ESA SP-XXX Conference/ Symposium Proceedings series, which was concerned with the publication of proceedings immediately after the relevant event. (In an early example of a key performance indicator, the aim was to publish proceedings no later than 12 weeks after the event!)
QuoteFirst opening of the ESRO and ESA Special Publications seriesTue, 25/02/2025 - 16:29Despite the changing seasons, some of the fundamental work in the ESA Archives is ongoing, including our digitisation efforts. Our first opening for 2025 consists of a first tranche of material from the collection of ESA Special Publications and Special Publications produced by its predecessor ESRO (The European Space Research Organisation). These digitised highlights focus on publications related to events and include proceedings from early ESRO and ESA sponsored conferences and from ESA commemorative events.[snip]The recently digitised selection consists of 16 editions. It includes 13 ESRO and ESA SP publications related to conferences held in the 1960s and 1970s. Seven of these are ESRO SPs, with the rest from the early ESA SP-XXX Conference/ Symposium Proceedings series, which was concerned with the publication of proceedings immediately after the relevant event. (In an early example of a key performance indicator, the aim was to publish proceedings no later than 12 weeks after the event!)https://historicalarchives.esa.int/index.php/first-opening-esro-and-esa-special-publications-series
Quote from: leovinus on 03/07/2025 02:57 pmQuoteFirst opening of the ESRO and ESA Special Publications seriesTue, 25/02/2025 - 16:29Despite the changing seasons, some of the fundamental work in the ESA Archives is ongoing, including our digitisation efforts. Our first opening for 2025 consists of a first tranche of material from the collection of ESA Special Publications and Special Publications produced by its predecessor ESRO (The European Space Research Organisation). These digitised highlights focus on publications related to events and include proceedings from early ESRO and ESA sponsored conferences and from ESA commemorative events.[snip]The recently digitised selection consists of 16 editions. It includes 13 ESRO and ESA SP publications related to conferences held in the 1960s and 1970s. Seven of these are ESRO SPs, with the rest from the early ESA SP-XXX Conference/ Symposium Proceedings series, which was concerned with the publication of proceedings immediately after the relevant event. (In an early example of a key performance indicator, the aim was to publish proceedings no later than 12 weeks after the event!)https://historicalarchives.esa.int/index.php/first-opening-esro-and-esa-special-publications-seriesAn interesting document to me is "Planetary Space Mission - Vol. V: Mercury and Solar Probes" from 1970. I admit I was a bit surprised that Europe was so interested in Mercury at the time. Any ideas why? Any particular reason? Or was it thinking along the lines of "Well, The Soviet Union and the USA are going to Venus and Mars. Let's do something different?"https://ship.esa.int/ISS/view.jsp?cid=ESRO_SP_57
Quote from: leovinus on 03/10/2025 10:57 amQuote from: leovinus on 03/07/2025 02:57 pmQuoteFirst opening of the ESRO and ESA Special Publications seriesTue, 25/02/2025 - 16:29Despite the changing seasons, some of the fundamental work in the ESA Archives is ongoing, including our digitisation efforts. Our first opening for 2025 consists of a first tranche of material from the collection of ESA Special Publications and Special Publications produced by its predecessor ESRO (The European Space Research Organisation). These digitised highlights focus on publications related to events and include proceedings from early ESRO and ESA sponsored conferences and from ESA commemorative events.[snip]The recently digitised selection consists of 16 editions. It includes 13 ESRO and ESA SP publications related to conferences held in the 1960s and 1970s. Seven of these are ESRO SPs, with the rest from the early ESA SP-XXX Conference/ Symposium Proceedings series, which was concerned with the publication of proceedings immediately after the relevant event. (In an early example of a key performance indicator, the aim was to publish proceedings no later than 12 weeks after the event!)https://historicalarchives.esa.int/index.php/first-opening-esro-and-esa-special-publications-seriesAn interesting document to me is "Planetary Space Mission - Vol. V: Mercury and Solar Probes" from 1970. I admit I was a bit surprised that Europe was so interested in Mercury at the time. Any ideas why? Any particular reason? Or was it thinking along the lines of "Well, The Soviet Union and the USA are going to Venus and Mars. Let's do something different?"https://ship.esa.int/ISS/view.jsp?cid=ESRO_SP_57They did become interested in solar missions, leading to Ulysses. Could Mercury have been an offshoot of that, as in people started talking about solar missions and then asked if they would do Mercury flybys?
2. POURQUOI LE CHOIX DE MERCURE? Mercury—Venus—Mars—Jupiter are the planets of the solar system that a space probe can reach with a reasonable flight time (about 500 days for a mission to Jupiter in direct ballistic flight). The "easy" planets", Venus and Mars, have been visited by American or Soviet probes on several occasions and future projects provide for increasingly complex missions ranging from the launch into orbit to the landing of probes on these planets. Such missions require considerable technical and financial resources. The least complex "exploratory" missions remain the overflight of Mercury or Jupiter. The planet Jupiter, in addition to being registered in NASA's "grand tour" program, is, because of its distance to Earth (5.2 U.A.) and the Sun, a difficult mission that poses two major problems: power source and transmission of information; solar energy at this distance is very low and leads to the consideration of power sources of a technological advance, such as, for example, nuclear reactors. A mission to Mercury would allow Europe to make an original contribution to the planetary sciences. Contrary to what happens during a mission to Jupiter, solar energy is, here, overabundant due to the proximity of the probe to the Sun. This also poses technical problems, and in particular thermal ones. But these problems can undoubtedly be solved without too much difficulty (see D. Koelle's conference).
Not sure. After spending some time with the French text, page 2, we see the quote below. Looks pretty pragmatic. Quote2. POURQUOI LE CHOIX DE MERCURE? Mercury—Venus—Mars—Jupiter are the planets of the solar system that a space probe can reach with a reasonable flight time (about 500 days for a mission to Jupiter in direct ballistic flight). The "easy" planets", Venus and Mars, have been visited by American or Soviet probes on several occasions and future projects provide for increasingly complex missions ranging from the launch into orbit to the landing of probes on these planets. Such missions require considerable technical and financial resources. The least complex "exploratory" missions remain the overflight of Mercury or Jupiter. The planet Jupiter, in addition to being registered in NASA's "grand tour" program, is, because of its distance to Earth (5.2 U.A.) and the Sun, a difficult mission that poses two major problems: power source and transmission of information; solar energy at this distance is very low and leads to the consideration of power sources of a technological advance, such as, for example, nuclear reactors. A mission to Mercury would allow Europe to make an original contribution to the planetary sciences. Contrary to what happens during a mission to Jupiter, solar energy is, here, overabundant due to the proximity of the probe to the Sun. This also poses technical problems, and in particular thermal ones. But these problems can undoubtedly be solved without too much difficulty (see D. Koelle's conference).
Quote from: leovinus on 03/10/2025 02:16 pmNot sure. After spending some time with the French text, page 2, we see the quote below. Looks pretty pragmatic. Quote2. POURQUOI LE CHOIX DE MERCURE? Mercury—Venus—Mars—Jupiter are the planets of the solar system that a space probe can reach with a reasonable flight time (about 500 days for a mission to Jupiter in direct ballistic flight). The "easy" planets", Venus and Mars, have been visited by American or Soviet probes on several occasions and future projects provide for increasingly complex missions ranging from the launch into orbit to the landing of probes on these planets. Such missions require considerable technical and financial resources. The least complex "exploratory" missions remain the overflight of Mercury or Jupiter. The planet Jupiter, in addition to being registered in NASA's "grand tour" program, is, because of its distance to Earth (5.2 U.A.) and the Sun, a difficult mission that poses two major problems: power source and transmission of information; solar energy at this distance is very low and leads to the consideration of power sources of a technological advance, such as, for example, nuclear reactors. A mission to Mercury would allow Europe to make an original contribution to the planetary sciences. Contrary to what happens during a mission to Jupiter, solar energy is, here, overabundant due to the proximity of the probe to the Sun. This also poses technical problems, and in particular thermal ones. But these problems can undoubtedly be solved without too much difficulty (see D. Koelle's conference). So these decisions can happen for many reasons, such as a personality (i.e. somebody who becomes interested who starts pushing for their project), but also external events. It is possible that the US science community indicated in some way that Mercury was not going to be on the exploration list after a certain period. Mariner 10 was then planned for a Mercury flyby mission in 1973. So maybe they figured that the Americans were giving up on Mercury after 1973?I wrote a bit about Mercury here:https://www.thespacereview.com/article/4349/1
To deepen the discussion, let me add a different angle here. While the ESA history website, AAS history, and Larousse are great for broad history, they are summaries by nature. Like the Cliff-notes. In a way, I'd love to go deep and go from high level summary (e.g. on rocket or upper stage), AAS History article, all the way to original technical reports from CNES, HSD, MBB etc to learn more. For example, for avionics or solarel electric propulsion, you could do a very different job today than in 1970. In the Reusable Agena thread we could do this via NTRS which has many of the primary documents. In Europe, there isn't a similar site to download primary technical documents. Bits and pieces everywhere. Which means that if you want to learn something new or re-interpret the orginal designs from the early 1970s then that is very difficult. The "Europa 1 & 2 manual" I dug up earlier here seems like an exception. As one example, just look at the 146 references in the attached paper and make a guess how many are still retrievable today. Spaceflight history is disappearing before our eyes. As another example, the European Space tug we discussed earlier. The European designs were from Messerschmidt-Boelkow Blohm (MBB) and Hawker-Siddeley Dynamics (HSD). One located tug study was QuoteStudy of the Use of Post-Apollo Transportation Elements for High-Energy Solar System Exploration Mission (HESSEM), MBB-URV-52(72), N72-33878, June 1972 while the related study QuoteEuropean space tug system study. Pre-phase A ( MBB-URV-38-71 ] N73-19908 does not seem to be on the web as PDF anywhere. I am in the process of requesting a copy via DLR in Germany though.
The European Space Tug 1970–1972by Hans Dolfing The story of the reusable European space tug studies goes back to at least 1969, even before Apollo 11 landed on the Moon. At the direction of new American President Richard Nixon, the Space Task Group (STG) was tasked with a study on NASA’s post-Apollo future between February and September 1969. An Integrated Program Plan (IPP), also named Space Transportation System (STS), was presented which included tugs and shuttles and a lot more. However, with declining budgets, the plan was in jeopardy from the beginning.
If anyone knows how to find the old ELDO-PUBL-xx articles then that would help Here are a few primary source articles. Except for the P. Blanc J P Contzen article, I could not locate the others yet. The STAR entry alludes that the "Present and future" article N70-21863 should also mention Europa IV.- Potentialities of nuclear and electric propulsion for European space programs [ELDO-PUBL-19] = 19 p3683 N69-33766https://ntrl.ntis.gov/NTRL/dashboard/searchResults/titleDetail/N6933766.xhtml- Nuclear reactors for low thrust propulsion of space vehicles [ELDO-PUBL-21] 02 p0326 N70-12256 Propulsion d'engins spatiaux au moyen d'un reacteur nucleair de faible puissance P. Blanc J P Contzen pp 297-308 17 pages N70-12256 ELDO-Publ-21- European launch vehicles - Present and future projects [ELDO-PUBL-25] 09 p1739 N70-21863 Europaeische traegerraketen - Gegenwaertige und zukuenftige projekte 12p German Richard J Jonke, Dec 1969- ELDO launching base in French Guiana 11 p2017 N70-25154- Blue prints for 120 rocket propulsion engines for use in Europa 3B 19 p3616 N70-35298
Anyone knows more information on these French nuclear engines and how they compared to SNAP-x in the USA?
While looking for the above ELDO-Publ-21 "Nuclear reactors for low thrust propulsion of space vehicles" by P. Blanc and J.P. Contzen, I cannot find a readable copy of that. It should be behind a paywall at https://doi.org/10.1016/B978-0-08-016841-8.50021-3
Quote from: leovinusWhile looking for the above ELDO-Publ-21 "Nuclear reactors for low thrust propulsion of space vehicles" by P. Blanc and J.P. Contzen, I cannot find a readable copy of that. It should be behind a paywall at https://doi.org/10.1016/B978-0-08-016841-8.50021-3Not sure if you are looking for the 1969 paper "PROPULSION D'ENGINS SPATIAUX AU MOYEN D'UN REACTEUR NUCLEAIRE DE FAIBLE PUISSANCE", but I have the full proceedings book (38 MB, 1011 pages). I am not sure also if I can post here the full book for copyright reasons, or the paper only.
Quote from: Temistocle on 03/22/2025 09:55 amQuote from: leovinusWhile looking for the above ELDO-Publ-21 "Nuclear reactors for low thrust propulsion of space vehicles" by P. Blanc and J.P. Contzen, I cannot find a readable copy of that. It should be behind a paywall at https://doi.org/10.1016/B978-0-08-016841-8.50021-3Not sure if you are looking for the 1969 paper "PROPULSION D'ENGINS SPATIAUX AU MOYEN D'UN REACTEUR NUCLEAIRE DE FAIBLE PUISSANCE", but I have the full proceedings book (38 MB, 1011 pages). I am not sure also if I can post here the full book for copyright reasons, or the paper only.Thanks for the chime in. The article itself would be great! It might have references for follow up research. Once I am back home I might have a few more questions.
Quote from: Apollo22 on 06/29/2025 03:29 pmTransporteur Aérospatial / Aerospace Transporter were a bunch of RLV / TSTO studies done in the mid-1960's by Eurospace, which still exists and is a lose association of big european aerospace companies. That peculiar Hermes- look-alike orbiter was to be attached to a Centaur -like hydrolox stage, the whole stack dropped at Mach 6 by a "super Concorde", to be built by Dassault. VERA was something else entirely. It was very much France own ASSET and while it did not flew a ground model was thermal tested. Test flights would have used a Diamant first stage, that is a L17 - 17 tons of liquid propellants - Emeraude or Améthyste.VERAS article. https://web.archive.org/web/20130508142014/https://www.anciensonera.fr/sites/default/files/fichiers%20pdf/Bulletin_AAO_Hors-Serie-Espace.pdf
Transporteur Aérospatial / Aerospace Transporter were a bunch of RLV / TSTO studies done in the mid-1960's by Eurospace, which still exists and is a lose association of big european aerospace companies. That peculiar Hermes- look-alike orbiter was to be attached to a Centaur -like hydrolox stage, the whole stack dropped at Mach 6 by a "super Concorde", to be built by Dassault. VERA was something else entirely. It was very much France own ASSET and while it did not flew a ground model was thermal tested. Test flights would have used a Diamant first stage, that is a L17 - 17 tons of liquid propellants - Emeraude or Améthyste.
In 1963, Eugen Sänger, became head of the Eurospace organisation which promoted the 'AeroSpace Transporter'. In response to a Eurospace call, aircraft makers in France, Germany and UK designed recoverable, winged spacecraft. From 1964 to 1970 the French government led studies to evaluate the feasibility of the concept.Those studies, under the leadership of the French Centre National d'Etudes Spatiales (CNES), coalesced into the Hermes spaceplane which was then adopted by the European Space Agency. In parallel, Germany and UK proposed fully recoverable designs while other countries, including Japan, India and Russia came to CNES to share ideas about spaceplane design. Unfortunately Hermes was never launched and by 1994 was abandoned after many alternative propositions were discussed.This book relates the story of these remarkable concepts, crossovers between aircraft and spacecraft beginning with the 'antipodal bomber' of 1944 and continuing to Aerospatiale STS-2000 project through the Transporteur Aero-Spatial, VERAS, AW Pyramid, Bumerang, Sänger II, HOTOL, Hermes, and Taranis. Non-European projects like Dyna-Soar, Hyperplane, HOPE, and MAKS are also be covered. It provides a fascinating and detailed account of these projects which, being half-way between aircraft and spacecraft, have hitherto often been therefore often neglected by aviation writers and historians
While there was European interest in these X-20 Dyna-Soar-like spaceplanes, I have not seen VERAS mentioned in EUROSPACE proceedings from 1963 to about 1966.
Hi, We called it "Transporteur Aérospatial".
And VERAS was something else entirely - unrelated. Best way to put it Transporteur Aérospatial = Aerospaceplane VERAS = ASSET ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASSET_(spacecraft) ) Aerospaceplane =/= DynaSoar =/= ASSET. Same story for Transporteur Aérospatial and VERAS.
Nord Aviation (public company, later fused with Sud aviation in to SNIAS, then Aérospatiale) did VERAS but earlier on, they also had Transporteur Aérospatial studies.
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/various-dassault-jet-projects-and-prototypes.15791/https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/french-tsto-studies-of-the-60s.4096/https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/french-secret-projects-3.29611/page-2
QuoteWhile there was European interest in these X-20 Dyna-Soar-like spaceplanes, I have not seen VERAS mentioned in EUROSPACE proceedings from 1963 to about 1966. It's because 1-Eurospace was a loose association of European aerospace companies 2-VERAS was 100% french 3-And funded mostly by the military, hence it produced very few public papers. 4-I think it also came after 1966, but I have to check the dates.
Be my guest. Btw, you should really join this forum, it's an amazing place. https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/ Your extensive space research will probably be much appreciated there too.
I have to partly agree, but that's because Statler an Waldorf keep arguing and arguing again.
Quote from: TheKutKu on 06/30/2025 11:55 amQuote from: Apollo22 on 06/29/2025 03:29 pmTransporteur Aérospatial / Aerospace Transporter were a bunch of RLV / TSTO studies done in the mid-1960's by Eurospace, which still exists and is a lose association of big european aerospace companies. That peculiar Hermes- look-alike orbiter was to be attached to a Centaur -like hydrolox stage, the whole stack dropped at Mach 6 by a "super Concorde", to be built by Dassault. VERA was something else entirely. It was very much France own ASSET and while it did not flew a ground model was thermal tested. Test flights would have used a Diamant first stage, that is a L17 - 17 tons of liquid propellants - Emeraude or Améthyste.VERAS article. https://web.archive.org/web/20130508142014/https://www.anciensonera.fr/sites/default/files/fichiers%20pdf/Bulletin_AAO_Hors-Serie-Espace.pdfNote that Eugen Sänger in about 1963 was in a leading position at Eurospace, including subgroup Spaceplane, which presumably relates to their study of spaceplanes. So far, the impression is that after his death in 1964 the spaceplane discussion at Eurospace also stops. The Eurospace reports/memoranda titled "Aerospace Transporter" from October 1964 and "Memorandum: A proposal for a Feasibility Study of an Aerospace Transporter System", March 1965, are reports that I could not locate and read so far.
In any case, I will have to prioritize reading the book "French Secret Projects 3: French and European Spaceplane Designs 1964-1994"
Quote from: leovinus on 07/13/2025 02:35 pmQuote from: TheKutKu on 06/30/2025 11:55 amQuote from: Apollo22 on 06/29/2025 03:29 pmTransporteur Aérospatial / Aerospace Transporter were a bunch of RLV / TSTO studies done in the mid-1960's by Eurospace, which still exists and is a lose association of big european aerospace companies. That peculiar Hermes- look-alike orbiter was to be attached to a Centaur -like hydrolox stage, the whole stack dropped at Mach 6 by a "super Concorde", to be built by Dassault. VERA was something else entirely. It was very much France own ASSET and while it did not flew a ground model was thermal tested. Test flights would have used a Diamant first stage, that is a L17 - 17 tons of liquid propellants - Emeraude or Améthyste.VERAS article. https://web.archive.org/web/20130508142014/https://www.anciensonera.fr/sites/default/files/fichiers%20pdf/Bulletin_AAO_Hors-Serie-Espace.pdfNote that Eugen Sänger in about 1963 was in a leading position at Eurospace, including subgroup Spaceplane, which presumably relates to their study of spaceplanes. So far, the impression is that after his death in 1964 the spaceplane discussion at Eurospace also stops. The Eurospace reports/memoranda titled "Aerospace Transporter" from October 1964 and "Memorandum: A proposal for a Feasibility Study of an Aerospace Transporter System", March 1965, are reports that I could not locate and read so far.Some progress. I have a copy now of the Eurospace reports/memoranda titled "Aerospace Transporter" from October 1964 but am still chasing the second document the "Memorandum: A proposal for a Feasibility Study of an Aerospace Transporter System", March 1965
In 1964, when Frank Sinatra sang “Fly Me to the Moon,” he was not entirely sure whether he wanted to ride a rocket or a spaceplane but it was clear was that he counted on a first-class ticket. The dream to fly into space on an airplane is old. In the last 100 years, the most well-known concepts include Eugen Sänger’s 1933 “Amerika-Bomber” and later “Silbervogel” followed by many similar concepts from the 1950s and later. [17, 34]
I wrote up some thoughts after sleuthing through the European archives. This is part one. Happy reading.EUROSPACE and the European spaceplane (part 1)https://www.thespacereview.com/article/5084/1QuoteIn 1964, when Frank Sinatra sang “Fly Me to the Moon,” he was not entirely sure whether he wanted to ride a rocket or a spaceplane but it was clear was that he counted on a first-class ticket. The dream to fly into space on an airplane is old. In the last 100 years, the most well-known concepts include Eugen Sänger’s 1933 “Amerika-Bomber” and later “Silbervogel” followed by many similar concepts from the 1950s and later. [17, 34]
The company’s involvement in launch infrastructure development in French Guiana also extends to the new multi-user commercial ELM facility being built on the grounds of the former Diamant launch pad
The news of OHB Establishes the European Spaceport Company included a note QuoteThe company’s involvement in launch infrastructure development in French Guiana also extends to the new multi-user commercial ELM facility being built on the grounds of the former Diamant launch pad I did not realize that the "Diamant" pad was still around. Kind of begs the question what other, old facilities are still in French Guiana.
Quote from: leovinus on 11/13/2025 01:31 pmThe news of OHB Establishes the European Spaceport Company included a note QuoteThe company’s involvement in launch infrastructure development in French Guiana also extends to the new multi-user commercial ELM facility being built on the grounds of the former Diamant launch pad I did not realize that the "Diamant" pad was still around. Kind of begs the question what other, old facilities are still in French Guiana.The old Diamant pad was a little appart from the Europa / Ariane area. Itself a larger distance from the peculiar Soyuz launch complex (the Soyuz flame trench was carved into granite : tedious job !). Kourou hasn't as many rocket pads as The Cape, but still it's a burgeonning space coast. Diamant launch area stopped being used after September 1975 and the last Diamant launch. France canned Diamant to fund L3S, better known as Ariane 1. CNES budget was being curtailed at a time when France got Ariane running in 73' by paying 60% of the development costs. Some pictures taken in 2000. http://www.capcomespace.net/dossiers/espace_europeen/CSG/ELD/ELD.htmIt stood abandonned for 40 years, 1976 - 2016.
Thanks for that, and for the very detailed link with "Diamant" info.
