Author Topic: Blue Origin Development Flight  (Read 9344 times)

Offline Chris Bergin

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Offline MySDCUserID

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RE: Blue Origin Development Flight
« Reply #1 on: 01/04/2007 12:38 am »
It's pretty impressive.  Though, I was actually a bit disapointed to see that they are putting effort into the vertical landing bit.  Getting up to space is hard enough as it is.  Why expend resources on an overly complicated landing system.  Let gravity and air resistance do that work via parachutes.

Offline WylieC

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RE: Blue Origin Development Flight
« Reply #2 on: 01/04/2007 12:45 am »
Keith on Space Ref just posted a couple of more video's.  Very interesting!  
For somebody with some engineering background, what are we looking at?
Are those just test thrusters - good for only a couple of hundred feet or
are those the real thing and they are doing something new?

If anybody has any more info, I'd sure be interested in learning more.

Thank   Bill H.

Offline Danderman

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Re: Blue Origin Development Flight
« Reply #3 on: 01/04/2007 01:44 am »
Hmmm .... it looks they installed an aeroshell over one of Armadillo Aerospace's lunar landers and told Bezos that it cost $20,000,000.

Offline braddock

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Re: Blue Origin Development Flight
« Reply #4 on: 01/04/2007 02:42 am »
The exhaust looks entirely clear except for that initial discharge, which appears white and foamy in the gear movie?  Is that some sort of purge?
What powers this thing?

Offline jongoff

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Re: Blue Origin Development Flight
« Reply #5 on: 01/04/2007 03:04 am »
Braddock,
Quote
The exhaust looks entirely clear except for that initial discharge, which appears white and foamy in the gear movie?  Is that some sort of purge? What powers this thing?

I'm pretty sure that's a peroxide monopropellant engine (which jibes pretty well with what I've heard from friends I know who worked there in the past, and previous info that's leaked out).  My boss and one of my coworkers used to be part of a rocket club up in the Bay Area (ERPS) that flew some peroxide powered HPR-style rockets a couple years back.  They said they were pretty sure that's what it was.

Peroxide engines are pretty easy to work with, so long as you have a propellant source.  The plumbing and engine controls are much easier than a biprop.  Had we decided to do a peroxide monoprop first (and had we had a good source of peroxide at the time), we'd probably have a year of flight experience under our belt by now.  

The big drawback is that peroxide really has pretty crappy performance.  If you add kerosene, it gets a bit better, but still nowhere near what you can get with LOX.

~Jon

Online edkyle99

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Re: Blue Origin Development Flight
« Reply #6 on: 01/04/2007 03:24 am »
Quote
jongoff - 3/1/2007  9:47 PM

Braddock,
Quote
The exhaust looks entirely clear except for that initial discharge, which appears white and foamy in the gear movie?  Is that some sort of purge? What powers this thing?

I'm pretty sure that's a peroxide monopropellant engine (which jibes pretty well with what I've heard from friends I know who worked there in the past, and previous info that's leaked out).  My boss and one of my coworkers used to be part of a rocket club up in the Bay Area (ERPS) that flew some peroxide powered HPR-style rockets a couple years back.  They said they were pretty sure that's what it was.

Peroxide engines are pretty easy to work with, so long as you have a propellant source.  The plumbing and engine controls are much easier than a biprop.  Had we decided to do a peroxide monoprop first (and had we had a good source of peroxide at the time), we'd probably have a year of flight experience under our belt by now.  

The big drawback is that peroxide really has pretty crappy performance.  If you add kerosene, it gets a bit better, but still nowhere near what you can get with LOX.

~Jon

One source I've read says that mono-propellant H2O2 only has a 161 sec specific impulse.  It is, however, the setup used by the oft-seen rocket belts, like the one that flew in the Rose Bowl parade the other day.

Would that be enough to provide a suborbital flight, or would H2O2/kerosene be required?  If the latter, then one has to wonder if any of those simple, rugged old British Black Arrow Gamma engines, or the people who built them, are still around.  A Black Arrow first stage used eight Gamma engines of three tonnes thrust each at 265 sec specific impulse.  Weighed 18-ish tonnes (3-stages) and successfully orbited Britian's first satellite (66 kg).  Something about this Goddard test vehicle reminds me of Black Arrow's first stage.

 - Ed Kyle

Offline simonbp

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Re: Blue Origin Development Flight
« Reply #7 on: 01/04/2007 03:31 am »
Quote
jongoff - 3/1/2007  9:47 PM

Peroxide engines are pretty easy to work with, so long as you have a propellant source.  The plumbing and engine controls are much easier than a biprop.  Had we decided to do a peroxide monoprop first (and had we had a good source of peroxide at the time), we'd probably have a year of flight experience under our belt by now.  

Which makes sense if your goal is to verify the plumbing and basic guidance system of your rocket, as seems the goal of the test...

It really is awesome to finally see a few of the new space companies actually getting to fly hardware, as opposed to running out of money (or never getting any) before they have a chance. The first few years of this century are starting to look for spacecraft like aircraft were last century...

Simon ;)

Offline jongoff

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Re: Blue Origin Development Flight
« Reply #8 on: 01/04/2007 06:28 am »
Ed,
Quote
One source I've read says that mono-propellant H2O2 only has a 161 sec specific impulse.  It is, however, the setup used by the oft-seen rocket belts, like the one that flew in the Rose Bowl parade the other day.

Would that be enough to provide a suborbital flight, or would H2O2/kerosene be required?

Depends entirely on the details.  How high of a suborbital flight? What style of vehicle?  What concentration of peroxide?  What mass ratio?  Etc., etc.  You probably could do a suborbital vehicle of some sort with monoprop H2O2...but Blue Origin has more or less admitted they're planning on doing H2O2/Kero for their full-scale suborbital vehicle, and LOX/something down the road for orbital stuff.

Monopropellant peroxide is a good "training wheels" propellant that allows you to focus on some of the other vehicle integration problems without having to have a full-blown biprop engine on the shelf.  It's not a crazy way at all to go about things.  Especially if you have enough money that you can solve the availability issue.  If we had had access to a steady, large supply of peroxide, we probably would've built and flown a vehicle or two using that first while we sorted out our biprop stuff in parallel.

~Jon

Offline Chris Bergin

RE: Blue Origin Development Flight
« Reply #9 on: 01/04/2007 06:31 am »
This one seems to be getting a lot of interest, so moved to the relevant section.
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Offline jongoff

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Re: Blue Origin Development Flight
« Reply #10 on: 01/04/2007 06:37 am »
Simon,
Quote
Which makes sense if your goal is to verify the plumbing and basic guidance system of your rocket, as seems the goal of the test...

Yeah, and never underestimate the importance of getting actual operational experience with vehicles.  There is so much that you can only learn by building something (and of course building it wrong a few times).  A lot about VTVL vehicles is not intuitively obvious at first, and has to be learned the hard way.  We're working our way up that same learning curve as well.

Quote
It really is awesome to finally see a few of the new space companies actually getting to fly hardware, as opposed to running out of money (or never getting any) before they have a chance. The first few years of this century are starting to look for spacecraft like aircraft were last century...

I sure hope so.  I also hope we can get our vehicle flying soon.  The engine development is finally done, and the vehicle is built, we're just integrating things and preparing for hold-down tests.  It's a cool time to be involved in the industry.  All in all I think there are enough competent VTVL and HTHL companies out there that there's a good chance at least some of us will make it.  Just hoping that we're in that category as well.

~Jonathan Goff
  Masten Space Systems

Offline CentEur

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RE: Blue Origin Development Flight
« Reply #11 on: 01/04/2007 10:43 am »
Quote
MySDCUserID - 4/1/2007  2:21 AM

It's pretty impressive.  Though, I was actually a bit disapointed to see that they are putting effort into the vertical landing bit.  Getting up to space is hard enough as it is.  Why expend resources on an overly complicated landing system.  Let gravity and air resistance do that work via parachutes.

If you really think about lowering your operating costs, quick turnaround is the way to go.  Perhaps there are ways of achieving it (quick turnaround) with the use of parachutes, but gliding (Scaled) and powered landing (Blue Origin, Armadillo, Masten) look more promising to me (in terms of precision and touchdown loads).

Offline meiza

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Re: Blue Origin Development Flight
« Reply #12 on: 01/04/2007 01:03 pm »
These are potent boost systems, you can have high-expansion low-pressure high-isp second and third stages since they launch out of the atmosphere. A few km/s boost should be enough for that.

Look at the bottom of the craft... the engines are mounted flush. And the landing feet look like they could telescope in. It probably is planned to enter bottom first. What first popped to my mind was Kankoh-maru.

Offline meiza

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Re: Blue Origin Development Flight
« Reply #13 on: 01/04/2007 01:05 pm »
btw the engine looks and sounds exactly like Armadillo's mixed monoprop ones... But it could be high grade peroxide too, that'd make more sense.

Offline Crispy

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Re: Blue Origin Development Flight
« Reply #14 on: 01/04/2007 10:41 pm »
And check the size of the hangar they're taking that thing out of :)

Offline hektor

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RE: Blue Origin Development Flight
« Reply #15 on: 02/27/2007 05:28 pm »
Any news from Blue Origin ? there does not seem to be much happening since this initial flight ? :frown:

Offline Jason

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Re: Blue Origin Development Flight
« Reply #16 on: 03/19/2007 11:25 pm »
There is a TFR (temporary flight restriction) in place for Van Horn TX. from march 22nd-27th to an altitude of 10,000 feet, for Blue Origin.

Offline Jason

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