Author Topic: New Shepard based Lunar Lander  (Read 4835 times)

Offline catiare

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 122
  • Miami
  • Liked: 61
  • Likes Given: 42
New Shepard based Lunar Lander
« on: 07/30/2021 02:13 pm »
Assuming they will have to start all over on the LETS contract. Can they develop a Lunar Lander that is based on the New Shepard? Assuming some sort of flight profile that allow it to reach Lunar orbit, and get it refuel before landing. Some sort of launch vehicle will have to send it to TLI, possibly almost empty as to lower the mass.

Few things that come to mind:

- Add Shielding
- Add Refueling
- Removing LAS
- Removing Fins and Drag Brakes and replace them with some COPV of some sort.
- Access Ladder or Elevator
- Redesign Capsule (add dock, ECLS, Communications, among others)

I know it's a lot of changes but it's based on something that is already working plus, could carry 4 and would be reusable. In my opinion, this would be easier path to develop than the National Team Lander plus will be something more competitive to Starship. Plus being a more 21st century architecture.

Any thoughts?

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 37647
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 21727
  • Likes Given: 429
Re: New Shepard based Lunar Lander
« Reply #1 on: 07/30/2021 02:20 pm »
no, not a good starting point.  Too slender.

Offline Steve G

  • Regular
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 580
  • Ottawa, ON
    • Stephen H Garrity
  • Liked: 618
  • Likes Given: 56
Re: New Shepard based Lunar Lander
« Reply #2 on: 07/30/2021 02:24 pm »
I would love to see Blue Origin dump the National Team and come out with a completely reusable system, more in line with the Dynetics design to keep the crew (and cargo modules) close to the ground. It would be smaller than Starship, and using their Jarvis reusable second stage, could set up tanker flights in Earth orbit to fuel an Earth-Lunar Transport Shuttle, then fly to lunar orbit with fuel, cargo, and perhaps crew to the lander. The Earth-Lunar Transport Shuttle would then return to Earth orbit for another series of refuling and cargo. The only way truly forward is 100% reusability, not like the National System which is way too much like the original Apollo LM.
« Last Edit: 07/30/2021 02:24 pm by Steve G »

Offline spacenut

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5190
  • East Alabama
  • Liked: 2591
  • Likes Given: 2903
Re: New Shepard based Lunar Lander
« Reply #3 on: 07/30/2021 02:33 pm »
Hopefully Blue can get something going.  Seems like they are getting the cart before the horse.  They really need to concentrate on getting New Glenn operational.  It doesn't matter if they have a reusable second stage or not.  With New Glenn, they can make their own lander fit New Glenn.  Then work on second stage. 

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: New Shepard based Lunar Lander
« Reply #4 on: 07/30/2021 02:38 pm »
Blue choose LM because they could use very complex and expensive to design Orion systems to be basis of habitat. Developing new pressure vessel is easy bit compared to all systems required to allow crew to survive in it for week or two in deep space.

Only thing Blue will take from NS is fuel management systems and landing software. Avionics will need to be upgrade for deep space's high radiation and temp swings. Booster shape is to narrow and unstable for landing on unprepared surfaces. Larger diameter tanks are better at helping to reduce LH boil off.

Don't see need for NGIS as TE can be based on Blue's DE, both of which were going to use Blue's BE7 engine.


Sent from my SM-G570Y using Tapatalk


Offline DreamyPickle

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 955
  • Home
  • Liked: 921
  • Likes Given: 205
Re: New Shepard based Lunar Lander
« Reply #5 on: 07/30/2021 02:50 pm »
If Blue Origin would develop a single-stage lunar lander something derived from the "Jarvis" project would the obvious option.

Alternatively they could just build a version of Blue Moon that is refueled sufficient times to achieve single-stage liftoff from the moon. Jarvis would be the best refueling option.

New Shepard doesn't really bring anything useful to the table except maybe software. Even the hydrolox engine needs to be replaced with something optimized for vacuum.

So far Blue Origin has positioned itself as the "safe and traditional option" and the recent open letter from Bezos confirms that this is still their strategy. The lander is where they will copy from SpaceX the least.

Offline catiare

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 122
  • Miami
  • Liked: 61
  • Likes Given: 42
Re: New Shepard based Lunar Lander
« Reply #6 on: 07/30/2021 03:22 pm »
no, not a good starting point.  Too slender.

Even if landing legs are replaced with ones that make it more stable?

Blue choose LM because they could use very complex and expensive to design Orion systems to be basis of habitat. Developing new pressure vessel is easy bit compared to all systems required to allow crew to survive in it for week or two in deep space.

They can still hire LM to develop the crew module systems if they can't do it in-house and still cost a lot less than developing a full Ascent Element from scratch.

New Shepard doesn't really bring anything useful to the table except maybe software. Even the hydrolox engine needs to be replaced with something optimized for vacuum.

So far Blue Origin has positioned itself as the "safe and traditional option" and the recent open letter from Bezos confirms that this is still their strategy. The lander is where they will copy from SpaceX the least.

I thought that was already being developed as the BE-3U variant. Also technically this is based from the New Shepard so it's not a Starship copy.

I just think the current design will not work now that NASA is focusing on sustainability. So starting with something that works today is probably a better route, plus they will control most of the development of the vehicle.

BTW, this is not too different shape-wise from the Hercules Lander concept from NASA. I believe its has been discussed in other topics.

Offline GWH

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1745
  • Canada
  • Liked: 1934
  • Likes Given: 1278
Re: New Shepard based Lunar Lander
« Reply #7 on: 07/30/2021 07:33 pm »
When Blue Moon was first rumoured it was planned to be similar to New Shepard, with a BE-3 and auxillary methalox landing thrusters. They moved away from that and instead developed BE-7.

Offline rakaydos

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2835
  • Liked: 1872
  • Likes Given: 69
Re: New Shepard based Lunar Lander
« Reply #8 on: 07/30/2021 11:16 pm »
When Blue Moon was first rumoured it was planned to be similar to New Shepard, with a BE-3 and auxillary methalox landing thrusters. They moved away from that and instead developed BE-7.
Something about better being the enemy of good enough?

Offline Zed_Noir

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5490
  • Canada
  • Liked: 1811
  • Likes Given: 1302
Re: New Shepard based Lunar Lander
« Reply #9 on: 08/02/2021 06:56 am »
no, not a good starting point.  Too slender.


One way to make the NS deviate lander less slender is to shorten the prop tankage section and add 4 strapped-on half core diameter prop tanks so that there is only one LH main tank and 4 strapped-on LOX tanks with landing gear on the bottom.


Offline sebk

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 774
  • Europe
  • Liked: 969
  • Likes Given: 27121
Re: New Shepard based Lunar Lander
« Reply #10 on: 08/02/2021 11:20 am »
no, not a good starting point.  Too slender.

Even if landing legs are replaced with ones that make it more stable?

It's too long to fit inside fairings of existing vehicles. And if flown without fairing it's unnecessarily narrow.

Something with a more stocky shape would much easier to handle all around. Make its tanks 41% thicker and 2x shorter and suddenly the thing would fit in a standard fairing for nat sec class C payloads. But at this point it has very little in common with NS: different tanks, different engine, different avionics, different/no aerodynamics stuff, different thermal design, etc...

Offline envy887

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8150
  • Liked: 6816
  • Likes Given: 2965
Re: New Shepard based Lunar Lander
« Reply #11 on: 08/02/2021 01:45 pm »
no, not a good starting point.  Too slender.
It also seems to have a pretty high dry mass fraction, since it can both take off land with a single engine that only throttles to ~20%. Lunar landers need a lot more mass optimization.

Offline ncb1397

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3497
  • Liked: 2310
  • Likes Given: 29
Re: New Shepard based Lunar Lander
« Reply #12 on: 08/02/2021 07:46 pm »
no, not a good starting point.  Too slender.
It also seems to have a pretty high dry mass fraction, since it can both take off land with a single engine that only throttles to ~20%. Lunar landers need a lot more mass optimization.

Well, except that one lunar lander that did some landings in the 60s or 70s. The descent element on that weighed about 20% as much without the propellant (technically more like 21%).

Offline Bob Shaw

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1434
  • Liked: 733
  • Likes Given: 676
Re: New Shepard based Lunar Lander
« Reply #13 on: 08/02/2021 08:02 pm »

It's too long to fit inside fairings of existing vehicles. And if flown without fairing it's unnecessarily narrow.

Something with a more stocky shape would much easier to handle all around. Make its tanks 41% thicker and 2x shorter and suddenly the thing would fit in a standard fairing for nat sec class C payloads. But at this point it has very little in common with NS: different tanks, different engine, different avionics, different/no aerodynamics stuff, different thermal design, etc...


Centaur is the exemplar within this discussion. Also, Agena. Upper stages *have* been repackaged fairly regularly. Lower stages, too - look at the Viking sounding rocket, the Vanguard rocket, even SCUD.

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
1