Author Topic: Blue Origin project Jarvis/Clipper - reusable NG 2nd stage  (Read 162775 times)

Offline ZachF

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Re: Blue Origin project Jarvis - reusable NG 2nd stage
« Reply #440 on: 01/23/2024 04:12 pm »
Maybe they're trying to copy Boeing. They patented an orbit.

Boeing is probably the last company you’d want to copy these days…  :-\
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Offline ZachF

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Re: Blue Origin project Jarvis - reusable NG 2nd stage
« Reply #441 on: 01/23/2024 04:22 pm »
I estimate that long term, New Glenn could probably evolve to about a 75-80 ton fully reusable launcher with thrust growth from BE-4, improved Isp on both stages, and a down-range droneship landing. At least, if they took an aggressive iteration approach like SpaceX took with Falcon 9.

Yep.

Tank stretch, fuel densification, and mixture ratio change in 1S. Mixture ratio change and possible stretch in 2S to get GTOW from ~1480 tonnes to ~2000 tonnes.

Increase chamber pressure in BE-4 to 200+ bar. You’re probably going to have a hard time going much beyond 230 with ORSC methalox. Thrust from ~1750t to 3000t. Any increase beyond 3000t can be used to increase isp.

This can be used to increase margin for second stage reuse.

Add in a ACES style third stage that can be refilled by tanker jarvises, or return into the payload bay after it’s done and you got a pretty solid system.
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Offline ZachF

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Re: Blue Origin project Jarvis - reusable NG 2nd stage
« Reply #442 on: 01/23/2024 04:25 pm »
A fully reusable New Glenn as outlined above, able to take ~75t to LEO could lift a Centaur V ACES and a ten tonne payload into orbit. The Centaur would then be able to deliver that 10t payload directly to GEO *and* return back to the payload bay.
« Last Edit: 01/23/2024 04:26 pm by ZachF »
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Offline DanClemmensen

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Re: Blue Origin project Jarvis - reusable NG 2nd stage
« Reply #443 on: 01/23/2024 04:58 pm »
A fully reusable New Glenn as outlined above, able to take ~75t to LEO could lift a Centaur V ACES and a ten tonne payload into orbit. The Centaur would then be able to deliver that 10t payload directly to GEO *and* return back to the payload bay.
Centaur is unlikely to be able to handle much acceleration except from the bottom along its axis. if Jarvis return from orbit has only axial acceleration, this trick might work. If the are using any lateral acceleration (e.g., as part of aerobraking) I don't think the Centaur would handle it.

Offline Emmettvonbrown

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Re: Blue Origin project Jarvis - reusable NG 2nd stage
« Reply #444 on: 01/24/2024 08:17 am »
I estimate that long term, New Glenn could probably evolve to about a 75-80 ton fully reusable launcher with thrust growth from BE-4, improved Isp on both stages, and a down-range droneship landing. At least, if they took an aggressive iteration approach like SpaceX took with Falcon 9.

Mind you, there is a recipe to do that which is as old as 1967 - courtesy of Douglas'  Philip Bono. Back then he defined a "recovery kit" to be applied to the S-IVB, whatever was underneath (a Saturn, a SRB, a reusable flyback booster - whatever). I did some searches and found the "recipe" on Google books

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"Philip Bono of Douglas has proposed a near-term technique for the land-recovery of an earth orbital stage; to be applied specifically to the S-IVB upper stage of the Saturn IB booster.

After a launch from Cape Kennedy the stage could be brought back from the 150.mi. altitude apogee of its second revolution to a landing on the West Texas plains about 100 mi. from El Paso by means of a 7900 Ib. recovery kit. Even with this additional weight the Saturn IB would still be able to carry a useful payload of 27 000 lb. into a 100.mi. orbit.

The essential elements of this kit would consist of:

•four solid-propellant retrorockets

•Three 28-ft-dia. ballute of Rene 41 material impregnated with a high-temperature elastomer. These would be released around 350 000 ft; just before depletion of fuel in the attitude control system. They would decelerate and stabilize the stage.

•Three 124-ft-diameter ring-sail parachutes would be deployed at an altitude of 10 000 ft. and a descent rate of 225 fps. These reduce the descent rate early instantaneously to 52 feet per second; which becomes about 33 fps. at touchdown.

•Ablative reentry heat shield of 0.3.in. thick Armstrong Insulcork 2760 bonded to a 0 04-in. gauge aluminum sheet. Korotherm TC-320 sprayable ablatant would also he used. The deceleration resulting from the Ballutes means that a lesser thickness of heat shield is possible.

•Crushable aluminum honeycomb structure behind the heat shield for attenuating the shock of touchdown.

•Four leg landing gear deployed just before landing to stabilize the stage in a nearly vertical attitude after touch-down. The uncrushed honeycomb extends about 4 ft beyond the plane de-scribed the gear feet so very little load would be taken by the gear . Guide rails for the legs would be attached to the forward skirt of the S-IVB.

After passivation of certain components in order to avoid hazard to ground personnel and the removal of others, the stage would be transported by truck to the nearest airfield; and from there, to Cape Canaveral in a Pregnant Guppy S-IV-B transport aircraft. "
...

Needless to say, recovery "state of the art" had advanced by lightyears since 1967...  and btw, New Glenn ain't that different from a Saturn IB, notably in diameter. Makes one think.

S-IVB weighed 240 000 pounds, that recovery kit being 8000 pounds amounted to (approximately) 4 percent of it.
« Last Edit: 01/24/2024 08:22 am by Emmettvonbrown »

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Blue Origin project Jarvis - reusable NG 2nd stage
« Reply #445 on: 01/25/2024 02:22 am »
Note they call it "Clipper" now instead of Jarvis.
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Offline Asteroza

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Re: Blue Origin project Jarvis - reusable NG 2nd stage
« Reply #446 on: 01/25/2024 06:40 am »
Note they call it "Clipper" now instead of Jarvis.

Somebody thinks it's full size so it doesn't need the delta prefix...

Offline TheRadicalModerate

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Re: Blue Origin project Jarvis - reusable NG 2nd stage
« Reply #447 on: 02/10/2024 07:22 pm »
Note they call it "Clipper" now instead of Jarvis.

I apologize for this, but there's no other way to exorcise the ear worm:

They call it Clipper, Clipper, but it's not fly--ing!
No second stage flew
A BE-3U!
And 'cause it's Clipper, Clipper, we will all won--der
If there's a management blun--der
That Jeff didn't see.


Hey, Flipper and Clipper aren't totally dissimilar; they both grew up in Florida.
« Last Edit: 02/10/2024 07:22 pm by TheRadicalModerate »

Online darkenfast

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Re: Blue Origin project Jarvis - reusable NG 2nd stage
« Reply #448 on: 02/11/2024 02:57 am »
You did that on porpoise, didn't you?
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Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Blue Origin project Jarvis/Clipper - reusable NG 2nd stage
« Reply #449 on: 02/11/2024 06:07 am »
Crosspost:

https://twitter.com/harry__stranger/status/1756319335470260460

Quote
Blue Origin has submitted updated permitting plans for LC-36 which include the addition of an "MKX Test Stand Area".

In the latest @NASASpaceflight KSC Flyover we noted the new concrete pad and how it may be the new test site for Blue's Clipper program:



Quote
• Addition of the LC-11 MKX Test Stand Area (site identifier 60) which includes a Vertical Transport System (VTS) on a concrete pad, commodity tank on a concrete pad, vaporizers on concrete pads, dump pond, power supply building, flare stack, cross-country piping and piping supports, roadway utility trench, lightning protection towers, a gravel parking area for storage of tanker trucks, and supporting controls skids and power supply enclosures on concrete pads.

Offline deltaV

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Re: Blue Origin project Jarvis/Clipper - reusable NG 2nd stage
« Reply #450 on: 03/31/2024 06:16 pm »
I made a poll for when Blue will first recover an upper stage: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=60638.0.

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