Author Topic: Blue Origin project Jarvis/Clipper - reusable NG 2nd stage  (Read 158380 times)

Offline sevenperforce

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Re: Blue Origin project Jarvis - reusable NG 2nd stage
« Reply #400 on: 07/20/2023 01:23 pm »
This is cool, but I hope this doesn't turn into a legal fight that throws Stoke under the bus. Unfortunately, Blue Origin has a bit of a history with litigation.

At any rate, this seems like a viable way to do upper stage recovery. I've love to see it work.
A little brute-force of them, but ultimately viable.

As envisioned, this re-entry profile would definitely be one of the most novel in terms of the shape of the re-entering body. Even Stoke's second stage has an OML and fineness ratio more like Crew Dragon or Soyuz. This is more like trying to re-enter the Space Shuttle External Tank butt-first. Fortunately this design has the engines down at the bottom to help with passive aerodynamic stability, but the moment arm on the rest of the stage is going to be quite significant and so it may be challenging to damp yaw and pitch oscillations, especially if they are relying on thrusters rather than some other aerodynamic control surfaces.

Offline JayWee

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Re: Blue Origin project Jarvis - reusable NG 2nd stage
« Reply #401 on: 07/20/2023 01:43 pm »
Any idea about the crossrange of these (Jarvis/Stoke) stages?

Offline harrystranger

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Re: Blue Origin project Jarvis - reusable NG 2nd stage
« Reply #402 on: 09/05/2023 05:40 am »
The Jarvis/Clipper tank that had been on the test stand at LC-36 for some months now has been removed and seemed to be transported back to the group of tents.
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Online Tywin

Re: Blue Origin project Jarvis - reusable NG 2nd stage
« Reply #403 on: 01/07/2024 01:42 pm »
Any news or picture of Jarvis-Clipper project?

We will see, some test or big hardware this year?
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Offline meekGee

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Re: Blue Origin project Jarvis - reusable NG 2nd stage
« Reply #405 on: 01/07/2024 09:11 pm »


https://patents.google.com/patent/US11649074B1/en?assignee=Blue+Origin+LLC&oq=Blue+Origin+LLC+&page=3

Did Blue just try to patent a diagonal strut?

No.
Hmm

Quote
1. A method of dispensing satellites, comprising:
providing a satellite stack including multiple stacked satellites, the satellite stack secured to a base with a diagonal strut extending from a top of the satellite stack to the base;
in response to receiving an instruction from a controller or to initiating a mechanical action, causing the diagonal strut to be released from the satellite stack; and
by releasing the diagonal strut from the satellite stack, causing a satellite of the satellite stack to be dispensed from the satellite stack.

Other than the presence and then release of a diagonal strut, what else is claimed?
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Offline whitelancer64

Re: Blue Origin project Jarvis - reusable NG 2nd stage
« Reply #406 on: 01/08/2024 04:58 am »


https://patents.google.com/patent/US11649074B1/en?assignee=Blue+Origin+LLC&oq=Blue+Origin+LLC+&page=3

Did Blue just try to patent a diagonal strut?

No.
Hmm

Quote
1. A method of dispensing satellites, comprising:
providing a satellite stack including multiple stacked satellites, the satellite stack secured to a base with a diagonal strut extending from a top of the satellite stack to the base;
in response to receiving an instruction from a controller or to initiating a mechanical action, causing the diagonal strut to be released from the satellite stack; and
by releasing the diagonal strut from the satellite stack, causing a satellite of the satellite stack to be dispensed from the satellite stack.

Other than the presence and then release of a diagonal strut, what else is claimed?

It's actually for a system of struts that releases a set of satellites on top of the stack, while retaining a second set (or perhaps more sets, with more struts) of satellites on the dispenser. The illustrations in the patent (in particular, Figure 3A and 4) really help show what the text is saying.
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
"There are lies, damned lies, and launch schedules." - Larry J

Offline meekGee

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Re: Blue Origin project Jarvis - reusable NG 2nd stage
« Reply #407 on: 01/08/2024 04:59 am »


https://patents.google.com/patent/US11649074B1/en?assignee=Blue+Origin+LLC&oq=Blue+Origin+LLC+&page=3

Did Blue just try to patent a diagonal strut?

No.
Hmm

Quote
1. A method of dispensing satellites, comprising:
providing a satellite stack including multiple stacked satellites, the satellite stack secured to a base with a diagonal strut extending from a top of the satellite stack to the base;
in response to receiving an instruction from a controller or to initiating a mechanical action, causing the diagonal strut to be released from the satellite stack; and
by releasing the diagonal strut from the satellite stack, causing a satellite of the satellite stack to be dispensed from the satellite stack.

Other than the presence and then release of a diagonal strut, what else is claimed?

It's actually for a system of struts that releases a set of satellites on top of the stack, while retaining a second set (or perhaps more sets, with more struts) of satellites on the dispenser. The illustrations in the patent (in particular, Figure 3A and 4) really help show what the text is saying.
No, that's the disclosure.  The claim is as I quoted, and that's what they're patenting.
« Last Edit: 01/08/2024 05:01 am by meekGee »
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Offline whitelancer64

Re: Blue Origin project Jarvis - reusable NG 2nd stage
« Reply #408 on: 01/08/2024 05:01 am »


https://patents.google.com/patent/US11649074B1/en?assignee=Blue+Origin+LLC&oq=Blue+Origin+LLC+&page=3

Did Blue just try to patent a diagonal strut?

No.
Hmm

Quote
1. A method of dispensing satellites, comprising:
providing a satellite stack including multiple stacked satellites, the satellite stack secured to a base with a diagonal strut extending from a top of the satellite stack to the base;
in response to receiving an instruction from a controller or to initiating a mechanical action, causing the diagonal strut to be released from the satellite stack; and
by releasing the diagonal strut from the satellite stack, causing a satellite of the satellite stack to be dispensed from the satellite stack.

Other than the presence and then release of a diagonal strut, what else is claimed?

It's actually for a system of struts that releases a set of satellites on top of the stack, while retaining a second set (or perhaps more sets, with more struts) of satellites on the dispenser. The illustrations in the patent (in particular, Figure 3A and 4) really help show what the text is saying.
No, that's the disclosure.  The claim is as I quoted, and that's what they're patenting.

You only quoted 1 of the 22 claims in the patent.
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
"There are lies, damned lies, and launch schedules." - Larry J

Offline meekGee

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Re: Blue Origin project Jarvis - reusable NG 2nd stage
« Reply #409 on: 01/08/2024 05:04 am »


https://patents.google.com/patent/US11649074B1/en?assignee=Blue+Origin+LLC&oq=Blue+Origin+LLC+&page=3

Did Blue just try to patent a diagonal strut?

No.
Hmm

Quote
1. A method of dispensing satellites, comprising:
providing a satellite stack including multiple stacked satellites, the satellite stack secured to a base with a diagonal strut extending from a top of the satellite stack to the base;
in response to receiving an instruction from a controller or to initiating a mechanical action, causing the diagonal strut to be released from the satellite stack; and
by releasing the diagonal strut from the satellite stack, causing a satellite of the satellite stack to be dispensed from the satellite stack.

Other than the presence and then release of a diagonal strut, what else is claimed?

It's actually for a system of struts that releases a set of satellites on top of the stack, while retaining a second set (or perhaps more sets, with more struts) of satellites on the dispenser. The illustrations in the patent (in particular, Figure 3A and 4) really help show what the text is saying.
No, that's the disclosure.  The claim is as I quoted, and that's what they're patenting.

You only quoted 1 of the 22 claims in the patent.
No need to quote more...

It is already an independent claim.  They're patenting that.  And then other things on top, later, but in #1 they're already literally parenting a satellite dispenser that has a diagonal strut.  That's it.

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Offline whitelancer64

Re: Blue Origin project Jarvis - reusable NG 2nd stage
« Reply #410 on: 01/08/2024 05:12 am »
You only quoted 1 of the 22 claims in the patent.
No need to quote more...

It is already an independent claim.  They're patenting that.  And then other things on top, later, but in #1 they're already literally parenting a satellite dispenser that has a diagonal strut.  That's it.

This is patently false.
Here are the 22 claims in full.

Claims (22)

What is claimed is:

1. A method of dispensing satellites, comprising:
providing a satellite stack including multiple stacked satellites, the satellite stack secured to a base with a diagonal strut extending from a top of the satellite stack to the base;
in response to receiving an instruction from a controller or to initiating a mechanical action, causing the diagonal strut to be released from the satellite stack; and
by releasing the diagonal strut from the satellite stack, causing a satellite of the satellite stack to be dispensed from the satellite stack.

2. The method of claim 1, further comprising causing the diagonal strut to be released when the satellite stack reaches a given location, when the satellite stack receives a command from an operator, or when a pre-determined time is reached.
3. The method of claim 1, wherein the diagonal strut is a first diagonal strut and, wherein the satellite stack is further secured to the base with a second diagonal strut extending from the top of the satellite stack to the base.
4. The method of claim 3, wherein the second strut extends in a direction different from the first diagonal strut.
5. The method of claim 3, further comprising causing the second diagonal strut to be released from the satellite stack in response to receiving the instruction from the controller or to initiating the mechanical action.
6. The method of claim 1, further comprising, after releasing the diagonal strut from the satellite stack, causing the satellite to be dispensed by a propulsion system.
7. The method of claim 1, wherein the diagonal strut is released by rotating the diagonal strut away from the top of the satellite stack and around an axis of the base. The method of claim 7, wherein a motor or a spring-loaded hinge causes rotation of the diagonal strut.
9. The method of claim 1, wherein the diagonal strut is released by removing tension from the diagonal strut.
10. The method of claim 9, wherein the tension is removed from the diagonal strut by elongating the diagonal strut.

11. A satellite dispensing system, comprising:
a first plurality of satellites stacked on top of each other; and
a releasable strut extending at an oblique angle from a top satellite of the first plurality of satellites towards a bottom satellite of the first plurality of satellites, the releasable strut moveable from a first, locked position in which the first plurality of satellites are in a secured position within the satellite dispensing system to a second, unlocked position in which the top satellite is dispensed from the satellite dispensing system, the releasable strut moveable from the first, locked position to the second, unlocked position in response to receiving an instruction from a controller or to initiating a mechanical action.

12. The satellite dispensing system of claim 11, wherein the releasable strut is a first releasable strut, and wherein a second releasable strut extends at an oblique angle in a direction different from the first releasable strut, the second releasable strut extending from the top satellite of the first plurality of satellites towards the bottom satellite of the first plurality of satellites.
13. The satellite dispensing system of claim 12, wherein the first releasable strut and the second releasable strut form a caret.
14. The satellite dispensing system of claim 12, further comprising a strut coupling in physical contact with the top satellite, the first releasable strut and the second releasable strut adjoined to the strut coupling and extending from the strut coupling.
15. The satellite dispensing system of claim 12, wherein the releasable strut is a first releasable strut, and wherein a second releasable strut extends at an oblique angle from the first releasable strut from the top satellite of the first plurality of satellites towards the bottom satellite of the first plurality of satellites, the first releasable strut and the second releasable strut extending from different points of the top satellite towards different points of the bottom satellite.
16. The satellite dispensing system of claim 15, wherein the first releasable strut and the second releasable strut form an X.
17. The satellite dispensing system of claim 11, wherein the releasable strut is a first releasable strut, and further comprising:
a second plurality of satellites stacked on top of the first plurality of satellites; and
a second releasable strut extending at an oblique angle from a top satellite of the second plurality of satellites towards the bottom satellite of the first plurality of satellites.
18. The satellite dispensing system of claim 17, further comprising a third releasable strut extending at an oblique angle in a direction opposite the first releasable strut, the third releasable strut extending from the top satellite of the first plurality of satellites towards the bottom satellite of the first plurality of satellites, the first releasable strut and the third releasable strut forming a first releasable strut pair.
19. The satellite dispensing system of claim 18, further comprising a fourth releasable strut extending at an oblique angle from the top satellite of the second plurality of satellites towards the bottom satellite of the first plurality of satellites, the second releasable strut and the fourth releasable strut forming a second releasable strut pair.
20. The satellite dispensing system of claim 19, wherein the first releasable strut pair and the second releasable strut pair are attached to a base, the base structured to support the first plurality of satellites and the second plurality of satellites.
21. The method of claim 1, wherein the instruction from the controller includes data received through a communication module via Track and Data Relay Satellites (TDRS) and the initiation of the mechanical action includes manual, scheduled, or automatic actuation of the release of the diagonal strut.
22. The satellite dispensing system of claim 11, wherein the instruction from the controller includes data received through a communication module via Track and Data Relay Satellites (TDRS) and the initiation of the mechanical action includes manual, scheduled, or automatic actuation of the release of the releasable strut.
« Last Edit: 01/08/2024 05:15 am by whitelancer64 »
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
"There are lies, damned lies, and launch schedules." - Larry J

Offline meekGee

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Re: Blue Origin project Jarvis - reusable NG 2nd stage
« Reply #411 on: 01/08/2024 05:22 am »
You only quoted 1 of the 22 claims in the patent.
No need to quote more...

It is already an independent claim.  They're patenting that.  And then other things on top, later, but in #1 they're already literally parenting a satellite dispenser that has a diagonal strut.  That's it.

This is patently false.
Here are the 22 claims in full.

This is not how patents work.  They get the independent claims in parallel.

So they're patenting a satellite stack with a diagonal strut.  Period.

Then, they may be patenting other things separately.

The first one is already outrageous. Having more claims won't make it less so.
« Last Edit: 01/08/2024 05:22 am by meekGee »
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Offline whitelancer64

Re: Blue Origin project Jarvis - reusable NG 2nd stage
« Reply #412 on: 01/08/2024 05:26 am »
You only quoted 1 of the 22 claims in the patent.
No need to quote more...

It is already an independent claim.  They're patenting that.  And then other things on top, later, but in #1 they're already literally parenting a satellite dispenser that has a diagonal strut.  That's it.

This is patently false.
Here are the 22 claims in full.

This is not how patents work.  They get the independent claims in parallel.

So they're patenting a satellite stack with a diagonal strut.  Period.

Then, they may be patenting other things separately.

The first one is already outrageous. Having more claims won't make it less so.

The strut is part of the system. The system is what has been patented.

Please stop pretending to be stupid. I know you are not.
« Last Edit: 01/08/2024 05:28 am by whitelancer64 »
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
"There are lies, damned lies, and launch schedules." - Larry J

Offline meekGee

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Re: Blue Origin project Jarvis - reusable NG 2nd stage
« Reply #413 on: 01/08/2024 05:39 am »
You only quoted 1 of the 22 claims in the patent.
No need to quote more...

It is already an independent claim.  They're patenting that.  And then other things on top, later, but in #1 they're already literally parenting a satellite dispenser that has a diagonal strut.  That's it.

This is patently false.
Here are the 22 claims in full.

This is not how patents work.  They get the independent claims in parallel.

So they're patenting a satellite stack with a diagonal strut.  Period.

Then, they may be patenting other things separately.

The first one is already outrageous. Having more claims won't make it less so.

The strut is part of the system. The system is what has been patented.

Please stop pretending to be stupid. I know you are not.
If I were to design today a satellite dispenser, completely different from theirs, but with a "diagonal strut" that lets go, in any capacity, then this patent will allow them to sue me.  It's that simple.

The other independent claims go in parallel, and the disclosure merely provides a "dictionary" for the claims, but it doesn't provide any protection, nor should it. With claims, the more minimal they are, the more powerful. #1 above is simply ridiculous.
« Last Edit: 01/08/2024 05:46 am by meekGee »
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Offline whitelancer64

Re: Blue Origin project Jarvis - reusable NG 2nd stage
« Reply #414 on: 01/08/2024 05:44 am »
You only quoted 1 of the 22 claims in the patent.
No need to quote more...

It is already an independent claim.  They're patenting that.  And then other things on top, later, but in #1 they're already literally parenting a satellite dispenser that has a diagonal strut.  That's it.

This is patently false.
Here are the 22 claims in full.

This is not how patents work.  They get the independent claims in parallel.

So they're patenting a satellite stack with a diagonal strut.  Period.

Then, they may be patenting other things separately.

The first one is already outrageous. Having more claims won't make it less so.

The strut is part of the system. The system is what has been patented.

Please stop pretending to be stupid. I know you are not.

If I were to design today a satellite dispenser, completely different from theirs, but with a "diagonal strut" that lets go, in any capacity, then this patent will allow them to sue me.  It's that simple.

The other independent claims go in parallel, and the disclosure merely provides a "dictionary" for the claims, but it doesn't provide them any protection, nor should it. With claims, the more minimal they are, the more powerful. #1 above is simply ridiculous.

How would you rephrase the patent claim in order to make it less ridiculous to you?
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
"There are lies, damned lies, and launch schedules." - Larry J

Offline Eric Hedman

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Re: Blue Origin project Jarvis - reusable NG 2nd stage
« Reply #415 on: 01/08/2024 06:19 am »
Not being a patent attorney, I have a couple of question.  Does someone else's design have to infringe on all or a substantial portion of the claims or just one for a court to consider it infringement on a patent like this one?

Also, will the patent office accept and approve the patent application as a whole?  Or can they reject portions?

Offline meekGee

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Re: Blue Origin project Jarvis - reusable NG 2nd stage
« Reply #416 on: 01/08/2024 11:19 am »


You only quoted 1 of the 22 claims in the patent.
No need to quote more...

It is already an independent claim.  They're patenting that.  And then other things on top, later, but in #1 they're already literally parenting a satellite dispenser that has a diagonal strut.  That's it.

This is patently false.
Here are the 22 claims in full.

This is not how patents work.  They get the independent claims in parallel.

So they're patenting a satellite stack with a diagonal strut.  Period.

Then, they may be patenting other things separately.

The first one is already outrageous. Having more claims won't make it less so.

The strut is part of the system. The system is what has been patented.

Please stop pretending to be stupid. I know you are not.

If I were to design today a satellite dispenser, completely different from theirs, but with a "diagonal strut" that lets go, in any capacity, then this patent will allow them to sue me.  It's that simple.

The other independent claims go in parallel, and the disclosure merely provides a "dictionary" for the claims, but it doesn't provide them any protection, nor should it. With claims, the more minimal they are, the more powerful. #1 above is simply ridiculous.

How would you rephrase the patent claim in order to make it less ridiculous to you?

It is not a matter of phrasing but of essence.

A patent should capture something that is unique, new, and useful.

It shouldn't be obvious, or obviously derived from previous patents or known art.

You're not supposed to be able to patent any old thing, especially not with such wide-ranging claims.
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Offline hplan

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Re: Blue Origin project Jarvis - reusable NG 2nd stage
« Reply #417 on: 01/08/2024 12:02 pm »
You only quoted 1 of the 22 claims in the patent.
No need to quote more...

It is already an independent claim.  They're patenting that.  And then other things on top, later, but in #1 they're already literally parenting a satellite dispenser that has a diagonal strut.  That's it.

This is patently false.
Here are the 22 claims in full.

This is not how patents work.  They get the independent claims in parallel.

So they're patenting a satellite stack with a diagonal strut.  Period.

Then, they may be patenting other things separately.

The first one is already outrageous. Having more claims won't make it less so.

The strut is part of the system. The system is what has been patented.

Please stop pretending to be stupid. I know you are not.

MeekGee is correct -- that's not how patents work.

Each separate claim is like a separate patent almost -- it stands alone and can be enforced by itself. The patent office may grant some claims and not others.

Attorneys who write patents generally start from the broadest and most general claims and progressively get more specific, hoping that as many claims as possible will be granted. Of course, specific claims that are granted by the patent office may be overturned later in court.

It's not surprising if the first claim is very broad, even absurd in some people's opinion. It probably won't survive, even if others do.

Offline meekGee

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Re: Blue Origin project Jarvis - reusable NG 2nd stage
« Reply #418 on: 01/08/2024 12:07 pm »
You only quoted 1 of the 22 claims in the patent.
No need to quote more...

It is already an independent claim.  They're patenting that.  And then other things on top, later, but in #1 they're already literally parenting a satellite dispenser that has a diagonal strut.  That's it.

This is patently false.
Here are the 22 claims in full.

This is not how patents work.  They get the independent claims in parallel.

So they're patenting a satellite stack with a diagonal strut.  Period.

Then, they may be patenting other things separately.

The first one is already outrageous. Having more claims won't make it less so.

The strut is part of the system. The system is what has been patented.

Please stop pretending to be stupid. I know you are not.

MeekGee is correct -- that's not how patents work.

Each separate claim is like a separate patent almost -- it stands alone and can be enforced by itself. The patent office may grant some claims and not others.

Attorneys who write patents generally start from the broadest and most general claims and progressively get more specific, hoping that as many claims as possible will be granted. Of course, specific claims that are granted by the patent office may be overturned later in court.

It's not surprising if the first claim is very broad, even absurd in some people's opinion. It probably won't survive, even if others do.
To that extent, yes, exactly. Can't blame a girl for trying, but at some point the girl looks pathetic.

I was responding to the observation upthread asking if BO is parenting the diagonal strut, and the way it's written, yes they are.

Given BO's history with patents, it's not that amusing.
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Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Blue Origin project Jarvis - reusable NG 2nd stage
« Reply #419 on: 01/08/2024 04:10 pm »
You only quoted 1 of the 22 claims in the patent.
No need to quote more...

It is already an independent claim.  They're patenting that.  And then other things on top, later, but in #1 they're already literally parenting a satellite dispenser that has a diagonal strut.  That's it.

This is patently false.
Here are the 22 claims in full.

This is not how patents work.  They get the independent claims in parallel.

So they're patenting a satellite stack with a diagonal strut.  Period.

Then, they may be patenting other things separately.

The first one is already outrageous. Having more claims won't make it less so.

The strut is part of the system. The system is what has been patented.

Please stop pretending to be stupid. I know you are not.

MeekGee is correct -- that's not how patents work.

Each separate claim is like a separate patent almost -- it stands alone and can be enforced by itself. The patent office may grant some claims and not others.

Attorneys who write patents generally start from the broadest and most general claims and progressively get more specific, hoping that as many claims as possible will be granted. Of course, specific claims that are granted by the patent office may be overturned later in court.

It's not surprising if the first claim is very broad, even absurd in some people's opinion. It probably won't survive, even if others do.
To that extent, yes, exactly. Can't blame a girl for trying, but at some point the girl looks pathetic.

I was responding to the observation upthread asking if BO is parenting the diagonal strut, and the way it's written, yes they are.

Given BO's history with patents, it's not that amusing.
Need to keep Blue's large legal department busy between government contracts that Blue misses out on.

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