Author Topic: NASA HLS (Human Landing System) Lunar Landers  (Read 1219802 times)

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: NASA HLS (Human Landing System) Lunar Landers
« Reply #1060 on: 05/20/2020 09:01 pm »
Some good news! See below:

https://twitter.com/Free_Space/status/1263182508641976320

Quote from: Irene Klotz
@BoeingSpace says it doesn't plan to protest the @nasa Human Landing System awards to @blueorigin, @Dynetics and @SpaceX .. story upcoming http://aviationweek.com
They were probably happy to miss out as these landers are only partially funded by NASA. Boeing has enough on their plate without another project that could costs them $100Ms.

Offline yg1968

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Re: NASA HLS (Human Landing System) Lunar Landers
« Reply #1061 on: 05/29/2020 03:20 pm »
Here is a Webinar on HLS. It had guests from Draper (National Team) and Dynetics:




https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=2994208370675062&ref=watch_permalink

https://spacenews.com/spacenews-webinar-back-to-the-moon-private-partnerships-for-lunar-landers/

Participants
– Seamus Tuohy, Principal Director of Space Systems, Draper
– Tommy Sanford, Executive Director, Commercial Spaceflight Federation
– Andy Crocker, HLS Deputy Program Manager, Dynetics
« Last Edit: 05/29/2020 10:32 pm by yg1968 »

Offline yg1968

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Re: NASA HLS (Human Landing System) Lunar Landers
« Reply #1062 on: 06/02/2020 03:01 am »
Here is an article that talks about the importance of the success of the commercial crew program for the funding of the commercial HLS program:

https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/space/lawmakers-demo-2-success-could-fuel-nasas-lunar-initiative

Offline woods170

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Re: NASA HLS (Human Landing System) Lunar Landers
« Reply #1063 on: 06/02/2020 07:44 am »
Here is an article that talks about the importance of the success of the commercial crew program for the funding of the commercial HLS program:

https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/space/lawmakers-demo-2-success-could-fuel-nasas-lunar-initiative

Upon reading the words "could", "perhaps" and "believe" it is clear that any positive effects of DM-2 on NASA's lunar initiative is wishful thinking.
« Last Edit: 06/02/2020 07:44 am by woods170 »

Offline yg1968

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Re: NASA HLS (Human Landing System) Lunar Landers
« Reply #1064 on: 06/02/2020 01:26 pm »
Here is an article that talks about the importance of the success of the commercial crew program for the funding of the commercial HLS program:

https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/space/lawmakers-demo-2-success-could-fuel-nasas-lunar-initiative

Upon reading the words "could", "perhaps" and "believe" it is clear that any positive effects of DM-2 on NASA's lunar initiative is wishful thinking.

I disagree. The House NASA Authorization bill, which attemps to change NASA's acquisition strategy for option A of the HLS BAA, has no chance in the Senate and that will continue to be the case now. Senator Cruz plays an important role in that respect in resisting the House's attempts to change the acquisition strategy. In terms of appropriation bills, the FY20 Appropriations bills did not prevent commercial HLS from going forward. I expect that that will still be the case for the FY21 appropriations bills. But we will find out in July. In terms of the exact funding for NASA, we should find out in July as well. But the trend has been for NASA to get increased funding every year but we will see. Artemis and the HLS program may not get the entire extra $3B that the President is asking for. In any event, we are likely to be under a CR until the end of the HLS base period (which ends in late February).
« Last Edit: 06/02/2020 02:15 pm by yg1968 »

Offline yg1968

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Re: NASA HLS (Human Landing System) Lunar Landers
« Reply #1065 on: 06/02/2020 04:37 pm »
See below:

Another article on commercial HLS and the House NASA Authorization bill:
https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/06/after-crew-dragon-soars-some-in-congress-tout-benefits-of-commercial-space/

Quote from: Eric Berger
As NASA looks to procure a Human Landing System to take astronauts from lunar orbit down to the surface of the Moon in the 2020s, Bridenstine has been pushing for just such a public-private approach. In NASA's Artemis Moon program, he would like the space agency to be a customer of a lander rather than its owner. Some in Congress have pushed back, including Oklahoma Democrat Kendra Horn, whose legislation H.R. 5666 would require NASA to manage and own the lander.

Asked about this bill, which remains pending in a House committee, Cruz said it does not represent where Congress stands on commercial space.

"The House bill you referenced, I think, is unfortunate," he said. "I think it’s a political document. It doesn’t reflect where Congress is and it doesn’t reflect what’s going to happen. We will continue to see close integration between NASA and commercial space."

Offline libra

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Re: NASA HLS (Human Landing System) Lunar Landers
« Reply #1066 on: 06/02/2020 05:55 pm »
Here is an article that talks about the importance of the success of the commercial crew program for the funding of the commercial HLS program:

https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/space/lawmakers-demo-2-success-could-fuel-nasas-lunar-initiative

Upon reading the words "could", "perhaps" and "believe" it is clear that any positive effects of DM-2 on NASA's lunar initiative is wishful thinking.

I disagree. The House NASA Authorization bill, which attemps to change NASA's acquisition strategy for option A of the HLS BAA, has no chance in the Senate and that will continue to be the case now. Senator Cruz plays an important role in that respect in resisting the House's attempts to change the acquisition strategy. In terms of appropriation bills, the FY20 Appropriations bills did not prevent commercial HLS from going forward. I expect that that will still be the case for the FY21 appropriations bills. But we will find out in July. In terms of the exact funding for NASA, we should find out in July as well. But the trend has been for NASA to get increased funding every year but we will see. Artemis and the HLS program may not get the entire extra $3B that the President is asking for. In any event, we are likely to be under a CR until the end of the HLS base period (which ends in late February).

Best hope for commercial spaceflight is to "infiltrate" Artemis, "tolerate" SLS to please Congress - and at the same time, secretely wish to be cancelled so they can provide cheaper alternatives. At some point or another, even with the colossal amount of pork barrel supporting it, SLS will collapse under its enormous launch costs.

There is no way a SLS can be cost competitve, either against smaller launchers launching cargo (one one side) and SpaceX Moonship (or whatever its name). It will end trapped between a rock and a hard place...
« Last Edit: 06/02/2020 05:57 pm by libra »

Offline yg1968

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Re: NASA HLS (Human Landing System) Lunar Landers
« Reply #1067 on: 06/10/2020 12:21 am »
See below:

Ken Bowersox's slides are worth looking at. They have some new renders and some adittional information about the landers:

https://www.nationalacademies.org/event/06-08-2020/space-studies-board-and-aeronautics-and-space-engineering-board-joint-spring-meeting-2020

Offline yg1968

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Re: NASA HLS (Human Landing System) Lunar Landers
« Reply #1068 on: 06/10/2020 07:21 pm »
Quote from: AAS
Join AAS this week for our next “Future in Space” online discussion – Human Landing Systems – with representatives from @BlueOrigin, @Dynetics and @SpaceX.


Thursday, June 11 at 3:00 ET 
https://twitter.com/astrosociety/status/1270010152721276936


« Last Edit: 06/10/2020 07:22 pm by yg1968 »

Offline yg1968

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Re: NASA HLS (Human Landing System) Lunar Landers
« Reply #1069 on: 06/10/2020 07:33 pm »
See below:

Ken Bowersox's slides are worth looking at. They have some new renders and some adittional information about the landers:

https://www.nationalacademies.org/event/06-08-2020/space-studies-board-and-aeronautics-and-space-engineering-board-joint-spring-meeting-2020

The archived video of yesterday's meeting with presentations by Scott Pace (at 12m of the video) and Ken Bowersox (at 2h56m) have now been posted:

https://livestream.com/nasem/events/9150540/videos/207225047
« Last Edit: 06/10/2020 10:04 pm by yg1968 »

Offline yg1968

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Re: NASA HLS (Human Landing System) Lunar Landers
« Reply #1070 on: 06/11/2020 09:19 pm »
Quote from: AAS
Join AAS this week for our next “Future in Space” online discussion – Human Landing Systems – with representatives from @BlueOrigin, @Dynetics and @SpaceX.


Thursday, June 11 at 3:00 ET 
https://twitter.com/astrosociety/status/1270010152721276936

The video of the presentation has been archived.



[...] here’s a lightly edited version of what was said [at 35 minutes of the video by Nicholas Cummings of SpaceX]:

Quote
For the terminal descent of Starship, a few tens of meters before we touchdown on the lunar surface, We actually use a high thrust RCS system so we don’t impinge on the surface of the moon with a high thrust Raptor engine. The thrusters planned have a lot of heritage in the Raptor design itself. It uses the same methane and oxygen propellants as Raptor, so there’s a lot of commonality there. Going to be ramping up some very rapid testing activities in the coming year.
« Last Edit: 08/09/2020 06:26 pm by yg1968 »

Offline GWH

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Re: NASA HLS (Human Landing System) Lunar Landers
« Reply #1071 on: 07/03/2020 05:16 pm »
Over on reddit user spacerfirstclass dug up total contract value numbers for HLS: https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/hkju5i/total_contract_values_for_nasa_human_landing/

The whole post is worth reading but it comes down to this:
SpaceX award 80MSFC20C0034: Total Contract Value $2.252B
Dynetics award 80MSFC20C0035: Total Contract Value $5.273B
Blue Origin award 80MSFC20C0020: Total Contract Value: $10.182B

Offline yg1968

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Re: NASA HLS (Human Landing System) Lunar Landers
« Reply #1072 on: 07/03/2020 06:28 pm »
Over on reddit user spacerfirstclass dug up total contract value numbers for HLS: https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/hkju5i/total_contract_values_for_nasa_human_landing/

The whole post is worth reading but it comes down to this:
SpaceX award 80MSFC20C0034: Total Contract Value $2.252B
Dynetics award 80MSFC20C0035: Total Contract Value $5.273B
Blue Origin award 80MSFC20C0020: Total Contract Value: $10.182B

The links are the following ones:

SpaceX:
https://www.usaspending.gov/award/CONT_AWD_80MSFC20C0034_8000_-NONE-_-NONE-
Dynetics:
https://www.usaspending.gov/award/CONT_AWD_80MSFC20C0035_8000_-NONE-_-NONE-
Blue:
https://www.usaspending.gov/award/CONT_AWD_80MSFC20C0020_8000_-NONE-_-NONE-
« Last Edit: 04/26/2021 04:20 am by yg1968 »

Offline yg1968

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Re: NASA HLS (Human Landing System) Lunar Landers
« Reply #1073 on: 07/04/2020 03:23 pm »
See webcast below:

Ascent element screen capture that wasn't posted previously below. This is from the Lockmart hosted Webinar:


EDIT: Webinar notes as I get to them.

- Northrop Grumman is indeed looking after the cryogenic composites.
- Blue Origin wants to do a lander demo in December 2023.
- LOL ingress/egress system, or in laymen's terms a ladder  ::)
- Multiple mentions of how they can launch on SLS or commercial rockets
- Ascent element is meant to be refueled and reused.
- Transfer element is designed to evolve into the refueling element for future missions.

« Last Edit: 07/05/2020 11:04 pm by yg1968 »

Offline su27k

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Re: NASA HLS (Human Landing System) Lunar Landers
« Reply #1074 on: 07/05/2020 10:29 am »
Over on reddit user spacerfirstclass dug up total contract value numbers for HLS: https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/hkju5i/total_contract_values_for_nasa_human_landing/

The whole post is worth reading but it comes down to this:
SpaceX award 80MSFC20C0034: Total Contract Value $2.252B
Dynetics award 80MSFC20C0035: Total Contract Value $5.273B
Blue Origin award 80MSFC20C0020: Total Contract Value: $10.182B

So if NASA downselect to SpaceX and Dynetics, they only need $7B total in out years, they can keep Artemis going even with the current low $1B annual funding for HLS, landing may not be 2024 but still fairly close, makes the program less prone to cancellation given the current political uncertainty.

Offline Eric Hedman

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Re: NASA HLS (Human Landing System) Lunar Landers
« Reply #1075 on: 07/05/2020 02:26 pm »
Over on reddit user spacerfirstclass dug up total contract value numbers for HLS: https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/hkju5i/total_contract_values_for_nasa_human_landing/

The whole post is worth reading but it comes down to this:
SpaceX award 80MSFC20C0034: Total Contract Value $2.252B
Dynetics award 80MSFC20C0035: Total Contract Value $5.273B
Blue Origin award 80MSFC20C0020: Total Contract Value: $10.182B
So if NASA downselect to SpaceX and Dynetics, they only need $7B total in out years, they can keep Artemis going even with the current low $1B annual funding for HLS, landing may not be 2024 but still fairly close, makes the program less prone to cancellation given the current political uncertainty.
I'm fairly sure those numbers will be updated by next year when the current design phase is complete before the downselect happens.  I wouldn't count on the lower numbers until then.  A lot can change in that time.  But it will be interesting to follow.

Offline yg1968

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Re: NASA HLS (Human Landing System) Lunar Landers
« Reply #1076 on: 07/05/2020 03:32 pm »
The numbers shouldn't change too much unless NASA adds new requirements. Option A isn't a new round.  It's an option under the current contract.
« Last Edit: 08/09/2020 12:04 am by yg1968 »

Offline yg1968

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Re: NASA HLS (Human Landing System) Lunar Landers
« Reply #1077 on: 07/05/2020 10:53 pm »
https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/04/nasa-awards-lunar-lander-contracts-to-blue-origin-dynetics-and-starship/

The awards, which cover a period of 10 months, were given to the following teams:

"$579 million to the Blue Origin-led "National Team." [...]

$253 million to a Dynetics-led team. [...]

$135 million to SpaceX.

Over on reddit user spacerfirstclass dug up total contract value numbers for HLS: https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/hkju5i/total_contract_values_for_nasa_human_landing/

The whole post is worth reading but it comes down to this:
SpaceX award 80MSFC20C0034: Total Contract Value $2.252B
Dynetics award 80MSFC20C0035: Total Contract Value $5.273B
Blue Origin award 80MSFC20C0020: Total Contract Value: $10.182B

Interestingly, if you compare the base value to the total contract value, they are fairly proportial.

Base value vs total value of contract

SpaceX     13% vs 14%       ($135M/$967M vs $2.252B/$17.107B)
Dynetics   30% vs 26%       ($253M/$967M vs $5.273B/$17.107B)
Blue         57% vs 60%       ($579M/$967M vs $10.182B/$17.107B)
« Last Edit: 07/05/2020 11:25 pm by yg1968 »

Offline yg1968

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Re: NASA HLS (Human Landing System) Lunar Landers
« Reply #1078 on: 08/08/2020 09:47 pm »
I was trying to figure out what the base period includes. It includes a Certification Baseline Review (CBR) and a Continuation Review. The decision to exercise Option A will be made as part of the continuation review. Only long-lead items supporting the first mission and various design activities are allowed during the base period.

See page 105:

Quote from: FY21 Budget justification
Late 2020 / Early 2021 Continuation Review to select two industry partners

Acquisition Strategy

The HLS program will utilize the NextSTEP BAA contract vehicle. Through this approach, NASA will award multiple firm-fixed-price, milestone-based proposals to enable rapid development of a crewed flight demonstrations of the human landing system. NASA has structured the solicitation to award contracts with the following contract line item numbers (CLINs):
• Base CLIN - contract award through nine months - only long-lead items supporting the first mission and various design activities are allowed during this base period.
• Option A CLIN - flight and landing demonstrations of human landing systems.
• Option B CLIN - follow-on flight demonstration with a focus on sustainability

Initial proposals include a firm-fixed-price contract for the Base period and Option A period. The Option B period will be priced at a later date.

https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/fy2021_congressional_justification.pdf

Quote from: NASA Paper
Down-selection will occur through continuation reviews, with the goal of securing at least two offerors to demonstrate taking designs to flight. The first will launch in 2024, the other will launch in 2025.

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20200001606/downloads/20200001606.pdf

Quote from: page 8 of the BAA
Within sixty (60) days after the completion of all Continuation Reviews (CRs) during the Base period, and in accordance with the instructions set forth below in this Broad Agency Announcement (BAA), NASA intends to determine whether to exercise Option A, followed by a 30-day notification period to awardees. It is NASA’s intent to transition between the Base period and Option A period without any break in contractor performance. The decision to exercise Option A (formally authorize work initiation) rests solely with the Government, and no guarantee is made that an option will be exercised even though the contract will cite a value for the effort.

Source: HLS_Appendix_H_BAA_-_2019-10-24b

The details of what is required under the base period is specified on pages 12,
15, 18 and 19 of the Industry day presentation:

https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/20190903_nextstep-h_virtual_industry_forum_updated.pdf
« Last Edit: 12/02/2020 02:25 pm by yg1968 »

Offline su27k

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Re: NASA HLS (Human Landing System) Lunar Landers
« Reply #1079 on: 08/09/2020 06:03 am »
I was trying to figure out what the base period includes.

To be more specific:

Quote
1.3.2 Overview of Contract Periods of Performance

To achieve a 2024 crewed HLS demonstration mission and a 2026 HLS demonstration mission that exhibits increased sustainability, NASA has structured this solicitation with the following discrete periods of performance that align with those objectives:

Base period: Contract award through 10 months

• CLIN 001 – Base: 2024 HLS Design and Development. 2024 Design and Development, excepting long lead items.

• CLIN 002 – Base: 2026 HLS Design. Risk-reduction design work in direct support of a potential 2026 HLS performed during the Base period will be permitted. Note that long lead items necessary to support the 2026 mission are not within the scope of this CLIN.

• CLIN 003 – Base: Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity (IDIQ) for 2024 Long Lead Items. For this CLIN, long lead items are defined as flight hardware with a value of over $100,000 required to be procured during the Base period to enable a 2024 flight demonstration. Proposed long lead purchases are only allowed beginning one month after Authority to Proceed (ATP). Each long lead item shall be proposed as a separate sub-CLIN.

• CLIN 004 – Base: IDIQ - Special Studies. Special studies, analysis, and/or support tasks as initiated by written direction from the Contracting Officer.

Source: HLS_Appendix_H_BAA_-_2019-10-24b.pdf

The way I read it, hardware development is definitely in scope, I believe SpaceX representative already said they plan to use the time in base period to develop the landing engine on Lunar Starship.

Tags: OPF SS Starship HLS Raptor 
 

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