Author Topic: Blue Origin : BE-3 and BE-3U Engine  (Read 119924 times)

Offline Joel

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-3 Engine
« Reply #40 on: 03/07/2013 09:40 pm »
100000 pound = 445 kN.

So 4 times bigger than RL-10?

If it's 100.000 lbsf sea level thrust, the vacuum thrust should be more than 120.000 lbsf, right? So closer to 5x RL-10.

Offline HappyMartian

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-3 Engine
« Reply #41 on: 03/08/2013 12:45 pm »
In the above post I discuss potential (speculated) BE-3 engine use of the open expander cycle. This is a lower performance expander cycle and it is also called the expander bleed cycle.

Mitsubishi in Japan is developing the 300,000-lbf thrust LOX/LH2 open expander cycle LE-X engine for future human-rated JAXA rockets like the proposed H-X or H-3 rockets. The vacuum performance of the LE-X engine would be 435 sec Isp versus an Isp of over 465 sec for the RL10 upper stage engine on Atlas V or Delta IV upper stages.

The below paper from Mitsubishi details the open gas generator and expander cycles used on the Japanese LE-5 engines and the use of the open expander bleed cycle on the 300,000-lbf thrust LE-X engine:
http://www.mhi.co.jp/technology/review/pdf/e484/e484036.pdf

The expander cycle is supposedly an easier cycle for engine throttling and engine re-start.

BO may start BE-3 development with either the open gas generator cycle or the open expander cycle, because these are easier and safer cycles for rocket engine development eventhough they may have a 30-sec Isp performance drop when compared to staged combustion or closed expander cycle engines.


An expander-bleed cycle engine also offers:

Excellence of the Japanese Expander-Bleed Cycle Rocket Engine and Enhancements for Future Engine Applications    By William Sack, Koichi Okita, Akihide Kurosu, Akira Ogawara, Kimito Yoshikawa, Masahiro Atsumi, Kenji Kishimoto, Kevin Lunde    2008
At: http://archive.ists.or.jp/upload_pdf/2008-a-03.pdf

JAXA and MHI have successfully developed an excellent expander bleed power cycle rocket engine designated the LE-5B. This LOX-hydrogen engine currently provides upper stage propulsion for the H-2A launch vehicle and has proven to be reliable and robust in 15 flights. The engine was developed as an upgrade to the original gas generator powered LE-5 engine. Elimination of the gas generator simplified the design, required ignition of only a single combustion device, precluded a potential chug instability at throttled conditions, and eliminated moisture from the turbine drive gases preventing “freeze locking” of the turbine on restart. Future Japanese engine designs can benefit and build on this valuable experience. To further enhance this proven cycle, higher combustion pressure is desirable to optimize performance for potential booster engine application. In addition, higher injector and turbopump performance is required to further maximize the cycle’s specific impulse. These improvements have the potential to greatly benefit Japan’s new LE-X booster engine design. Another interesting feature of a LOX/H2 expander-bleed cycle engine is that, based on a recent study, the cycle can potentially be designed to function as a dual fuel engine utilizing LCH4 or LH2. This capability can facilitate the use of in-situ propellant systems for space exploration applications. The purpose of this paper is to discuss progress and background towards the development of these expander-bleed cycle engine improvements and capabilities.




I added the bold to the article's abstract.

Yep, an "interesting feature".
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Offline Zond

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-3 Engine
« Reply #42 on: 03/27/2013 06:56 pm »
Quote
Attendees enjoyed a keynote address given by Mr. Curtis Johnson from Blue Origin, LLC. Mr. Johnson’s long-time participation in JANNAF within the Combustion, Liquid Propulsion, and Exhaust Plume and Signatures Subcommittees gave insight into what would pique the interests of those gathered in Monterey: a keynote with lots of steam and fire(!) from Blue Origin’s development efforts of the BE-3 engine. In 2007, Mr. Johnson joined Blue Origin to lead the development of its 100,000 lbf thrust liquid hydrogen/oxygen booster engine. This engine represents the first attempt at a tap-off cycle flight engine in the U.S. and will eventually power a reusable booster system. Mr. Johnson shared with the JANNAF community the specific design philosophy and trades that informed the decision for the engine. He also provided background information on Blue Origin and the booster system.
http://www.jannaf.org/pdfs/Newsletter/JANNAFNews_Vol2No1.pdf

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-3 Engine
« Reply #43 on: 05/18/2013 05:39 am »
Cross-posting due to relevance for this specific thread:

Blue Origin's extended CCDev2 SAA with the three new unfunded milestones (to be accomplihed in 2013 and 2014) has now been posted:

Quote from: Amended CCDev2 SAA
[...]

Milestone 3.6- BE-3 Engine Test
Date: September 2013
Unfunded
Description: Conduct a test firing of the pump-fed engine at Blue's West Texas Launch Site simulating a subscale booster suborbital mission duty cycle (MDC).

[...]

http://commercialcrew.nasa.gov/document_file_get.cfm?docid=654
http://commercialcrew.nasa.gov/page.cfm?ID=42

A suborbital MDC has to be more than a minute? So I'd imagine some shorter test firings must be happening already?

Offline yg1968

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-3 Engine
« Reply #44 on: 06/11/2013 02:53 am »
Blue Origin LOX/Hydrogen rocket engine BE-3 test firing:
!

Offline QuantumG

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-3 Engine
« Reply #45 on: 12/03/2013 09:32 pm »
Quote
BE-3 engine was fired at full power for two and a half minutes to mimic a launch, producing 110,000 pounds of thrust

http://www.space.com/23818-blue-origin-rocket-engine-test-video.html

The thrust of about four RL-10s.

Anyone else think maybe Blue Origin will be entering for the planned SLS cryogenic upper stage competition?
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline Prober

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-3 Engine
« Reply #46 on: 12/04/2013 12:18 am »
Quote
BE-3 engine was fired at full power for two and a half minutes to mimic a launch, producing 110,000 pounds of thrust

http://www.space.com/23818-blue-origin-rocket-engine-test-video.html

The thrust of about four RL-10s.

Anyone else think maybe Blue Origin will be entering for the planned SLS cryogenic upper stage competition?

Bezos shouldn't be under estimated.   A great story of new hw  :)
2017 - Everything Old is New Again.
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Offline QuantumG

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-3 Engine
« Reply #47 on: 12/04/2013 12:20 am »
Bezos shouldn't be under estimated.   A great story of new hw  :)

What makes ya think I was? It was a serious question.
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline Prober

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-3 Engine
« Reply #48 on: 12/04/2013 12:27 am »
Bezos shouldn't be under estimated.   A great story of new hw  :)

What makes ya think I was? It was a serious question.
sorry your not....was just a statement in "general"
If we could store the fuels this would make a great Lunar Landing engine.
2017 - Everything Old is New Again.
"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant..." --Isoroku Yamamoto

Offline deltaV

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-3 Engine
« Reply #49 on: 12/04/2013 02:34 pm »
The thrust of about four RL-10s.

Anyone else think maybe Blue Origin will be entering for the planned SLS cryogenic upper stage competition?

I was wondering the same thing just before I read your message. The BE-3 does sound like a good upper stage engine for SLS or Falcon Heavy. It's ISP is likely to be a bit worse than the RL-10 however because of its tap-off cycle, which AIUI has similar performance to a gas generator cycle.
« Last Edit: 12/04/2013 02:37 pm by deltaV »

Offline Danderman

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-3 Engine
« Reply #50 on: 12/04/2013 03:38 pm »
The BE-3 does sound like a good upper stage engine for SLS or Falcon Heavy.

Or Antares or any flavor of Falcon.

Or Atlas V, for LEO applications.

Offline baldusi

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-3 Engine
« Reply #51 on: 12/04/2013 05:06 pm »
The BE-3 does sound like a good upper stage engine for SLS or Falcon Heavy.

Or Antares or any flavor of Falcon.

Or Atlas V, for LEO applications.
We don't know the T/W nor the isp. And the expansion ratio seems really low. Until we have good numbers I'm not sure it would make a good upper stage engine. By the press release, I would guess is a jack o all trades, master of none.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-3 Engine
« Reply #52 on: 12/04/2013 05:15 pm »
... And the expansion ratio seems really low. ...
Put a bell on it. Done. I can haz space consultant monies nao?
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Offline Nate_Trost

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-3 Engine
« Reply #53 on: 12/04/2013 07:49 pm »
I have to wonder, for the actual Blue Origin Reusable Booster Stage, if they are actually going to cluster several BE-3s, or if BE-3 will be for suborbital and the second stage of their orbital LV and they'll continue on making a larger, higher-thrust BE-4 for the RBS to reduce the engine count.

Offline baldusi

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-3 Engine
« Reply #54 on: 12/04/2013 08:01 pm »
... And the expansion ratio seems really low. ...
Put a bell on it. Done. I can haz space consultant monies nao?
And now you can't lower your throttle to land.

Online Elmar Moelzer

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-3 Engine
« Reply #55 on: 12/04/2013 08:58 pm »
And now you can't lower your throttle to land.
Adjustable/retractable bell?

Offline Lars_J

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-3 Engine
« Reply #56 on: 12/04/2013 09:12 pm »
I have to wonder, for the actual Blue Origin Reusable Booster Stage, if they are actually going to cluster several BE-3s, or if BE-3 will be for suborbital and the second stage of their orbital LV and they'll continue on making a larger, higher-thrust BE-4 for the RBS to reduce the engine count.


They would probably cluster 5-7 of them if they make a reusable booster stage - similar to what SpaceX is doing. The deeper throttling range should allow them to be less aggressive in the final landing burn.
« Last Edit: 12/04/2013 09:13 pm by Lars_J »

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-3 Engine
« Reply #57 on: 12/04/2013 09:13 pm »
... And the expansion ratio seems really low. ...
Put a bell on it. Done. I can haz space consultant monies nao?
And now you can't lower your throttle to land.
Upper stage is expendable on all the literature released from Blue Origin.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline QuantumG

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-3 Engine
« Reply #58 on: 12/04/2013 09:48 pm »
If they went for the SLS cryogenic upper stage competition, I'd expect them to do significant work on the engine to customize it to that application.

But actually having a cryogenic engine before the competition starts is a nice card to be able to play.. it might even end up being a prerequisite.
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline deltaV

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Re: Blue Origin's BE-3 Engine
« Reply #59 on: 12/04/2013 10:30 pm »
Is there any evidence that NASA will hold an open competition for the upper stage engine?

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