Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 8  (Read 1560342 times)

Offline RotoSequence

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"breakthrough paving the way to table-top experiments in
general relativity and marking the starting point of space-time engineering."

That is one powerful, and exciting, statement.

Marco predicts that the gravitational effects being generated in the frustums should scale with the square of the average energy density of the E&M field in the frustum.

That is VERY exciting!

What does that mean in plain English?

Double the EM field energy density inside an EmDrive and get 4x the gravational effect inside the EmDrive.

Remember those space warping (well artificial gravity like equivalent space warping) experiments Paul shared with us about shining a laser through a powered & non powered frustum?

That sounds like an implied Lorentz Force-esque relationship between whatever the EM Drive effect is and input power.

Offline Star One

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That article linked to up thread makes it sound like it only produces a minuscule amount of thrust.
« Last Edit: 09/02/2016 08:12 pm by Star One »

Offline RotoSequence

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That article linked to up thread makes it sound like it only produces a minuscule amount of thrust.

This is true. The utility of the effect is going to depend greatly on which scaling relationships it obeys.

Offline krio

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A brainstorm type question: if the cost of building superconducting experiment for Q factor influence verification scales with dimensions of the setup, what's stopping from building a 2x2cm setup with commercially available superconductors at ebay/amazon, drilling the cavity and applying some duct tape?

Offline Star One

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That article linked to up thread makes it sound like it only produces a minuscule amount of thrust.

This is true. The utility of the effect is going to depend greatly on which scaling relationships it obeys.

Thank you for that confirmation. So I am right in thinking that even though it appears to work its utility is dependent on its scalability?

Hopefully this paper will open the door to funding into EM research being more forthcoming. NASA should now fund it as it does other emerging propulsion technologies.

I bet DARPA will be interested in this paper.
« Last Edit: 09/02/2016 08:35 pm by Star One »

Offline DIYFAN

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A brainstorm type question: if the cost of building superconducting experiment for Q factor influence verification scales with dimensions of the setup, what's stopping from building a 2x2cm setup with commercially available superconductors at ebay/amazon, drilling the cavity and applying some duct tape?

Not a bad idea, really.  Would possibly bring the superconductive type build within the realm of possibility for a DIYer.  The challenge would be producing the EM content with the correctly sized wavelength, resonance, etc., which is above my pay grade.
« Last Edit: 09/02/2016 08:34 pm by DIYFAN »

Offline RotoSequence

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Thank you for that confirmation. So I am right in thinking that even though it appears to work its utility is dependent on its scalability?

Hopefully this paper will open the door to funding into EM research being more forthcoming. NASA should now fund it as it does other emerging propulsion technologies.

I bet DARPA will be interested in this paper.

Don't take me for gospel, I'm just a watcher reporting on what he understands of what he sees (which is a lot less than I'd like).  :-X

Offline Star One

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Thank you for that confirmation. So I am right in thinking that even though it appears to work its utility is dependent on its scalability?

Hopefully this paper will open the door to funding into EM research being more forthcoming. NASA should now fund it as it does other emerging propulsion technologies.

I bet DARPA will be interested in this paper.

Don't take me for gospel, I'm just a watcher reporting on what he understands of what he sees (which is a lot less than I'd like).  :-X

Are we allowed to get excited about this yet, or should we hold off until December.

This is moving on social media but the view seems to be it will invalidate it, shame people are forgetting that part of the abstract was already posted apparently showing it does work.
« Last Edit: 09/02/2016 08:56 pm by Star One »

Offline TheTraveller

That article linked to up thread makes it sound like it only produces a minuscule amount of thrust.

A consistent 1.2mN/kWrf is the value stated by Dr. Rodal.

Roger's Flight Thruster, his 3rd design. delivered 326mN/kWrf as attached.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

Offline Bob Woods

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From these findings, we can create artificial gravitational fields, warp drives ?

All we know is what Paul shared.

Would assume EW have done further work since then.
It's been a very interesting pleasure to watch what has unfolded here here Phil. You have taken a lot of heat over the last 24 months or so.

When the article comes out in full we'll see the complete story and we are all guaranteed to learn something.

Offline RotoSequence

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Are we allowed to get excited about this yet, or should we hold off until December.

I'm excited, but I'm not qualified to say whether or not you should be excited.

Offline Star One

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Are we allowed to get excited about this yet, or should we hold off until December.

I'm excited, but I'm not qualified to say whether or not you should be excited.

Is it fate or providence that a planet is discovered so relatively close at hand at the same time.

Offline RotoSequence

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Is it fate or providence that a planet is discovered so relatively close at hand at the same time.

Coincidence.

Offline Star One

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Is it fate or providence that a planet is discovered so relatively close at hand at the same time.

Coincidence.

Yep but lucky.

And I was somewhat joking above.
« Last Edit: 09/02/2016 10:49 pm by Star One »

Offline TheTraveller

I bet DARPA will be interested in this paper.

DARPA interested in the EW paper? I doubt it. DARPA,  Boeing, USAF & NSSO were all involved in awarding SPR the 2008 contract to build the Flight Thruster.
http://www.emdrive.com/flightprogramme.html

Once SPR delivered it to Boeing,  it went dark. And yes it did work. One day that whole story will be told.

Here is a part of the story as told to me by Roger:

Quote
In response to a recent request by a respected US journalist, I provided the following background information.

Background.

  EmDrive development started in 2001 at SPR Ltd, funded by UK government
   and monitored by MOD experts.

  Proof of concept phase completed by 2006 and all technical reports accepted by funding agencies.

  Export licence to US granted by UK government 2007.

  End User Undertaking states end user is US armed forces and purpose is
   use on a test satellite.

  December 2008.
   Meetings held in Washington (including in the Pentagon) with USAF, DARPA and NSSO.

  Technology Transfer Contract, covering the design and test of a Flight Thruster agreed with
   Boeing under a State Department TAA and completed in July 2010.

  2010 First reports of high thrust EmDrive results received from Xi’an University in China.

  All contact with Boeing then stopped and no public comment was permitted under the 5 year NDA.
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

Offline Flyby

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so... where does that leave us, with 1.2mN/kW, instead of 400mN/kW ?
Is it still meaningful for interplanetary missions?

There is still a substantial gap (± x300 times)between what the guys at eagleworks got and what Shawyer claims. If the10 year old NDA has expired on the demonstration device, maybe it would be a good idea for R. Shawyer to contact  them and send over that "obsolete" model.
But that's wishful thinking of me , ofc...


Offline guckyfan

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If it can be established that the effect exists, I am not worried about using it. Any first device ever could be improved by a lot. Once the effect is proven there will be research money for improving on it.

Offline Star One

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If it can be established that the effect exists, I am not worried about using it. Any first device ever could be improved by a lot. Once the effect is proven there will be research money for improving on it.

Doesn't it ask a bigger and more fundamental question that even working at this low level means somewhere our understanding of physics is faulty?

Offline tchernik

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The whole history of the EM drive seems so bizarre at points, that it verges on being an X Files episode.

I think it's better to stick to publicly known events and evidence, or we can lose ourselves in speculation.

NASA's EagleWorks and UT Dresden's experiments are at the forefront of what others call "institutional tests/experiments", because they are the only ones done in a vacuum and under very controlled conditions that can be accepted by peer reviewers. Because their tests have been accepted for publication already.

All other tests (done by scientists or not) have been done on air and under conditions that don't satisfy peer reviewed publications (yet).

They can be enticing demonstrations of a potentially real phenomenon, but their scientific value is at best, anecdotal and just adds up to the pile of evidence pointing out this can be real.

Therefore, the pretended level of thrust we can have more confidence to say is the "right" one, is that found and reported by NASA's EagleWorks. Which is still pending to be replicated and verified by others under similar conditions of rigorous test quality.

Thus, all that talk about tonnes-per-kilowatt thrusters is just fantasy and wild guessing right now. Show us a public demonstration of a flying self-propelled test article, and then we can accept to change that situation.
« Last Edit: 09/02/2016 09:50 pm by tchernik »

Offline TheTraveller

so... where does that leave us, with 1.2mN/kW, instead of 400mN/kW ?
Is it still meaningful for interplanetary missions?

There is still a substantial gap (± x300 times)between what the guys at eagleworks got and what Shawyer claims. If the10 year old NDA has expired on the demonstration device, maybe it would be a good idea for R. Shawyer to contact  them and send over that "obsolete" model.
But that's wishful thinking of me , ofc...

How can I say this?

Roger offered to help EW. For whatever reason that never happened and EW reinvented a non physically tunable flat end plate design approach (using a dielectric) that Roger abandoned in 2002. From his 2nd unit, The Demonstrator,  and forward all designs are dielectric free and use shaped end plates.

His 1st Experimental dielectric design, with twin physical frustum tuning systens only achieved 18.8mN/kWrf.
http://emdrive.com/feasibilitystudy.html

The 2nd Demonstrator, dielectric free, with spherical end plates achieved 214mN/kWrf.
http://emdrive.com/demonstratorengine.html

3rd build, the Flight Thruster achieved 326mN/kWrf
http://emdrive.com/flightprogramme.html

See the progression?
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

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