Author Topic: EM Drive Developments - related to space flight applications - Thread 8  (Read 1412164 times)

Offline Willem Staal

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i heard rumours that the Chinese already launced a experimental em-drive into space.

They still waiting for results.  :o

My understanding is the Chinese experimental satellite has many experiments to conduct,  the non cryo EmDrive from Prof Yang's new team is one of the experiments.
When do they have telemetry of any results,  you think? And will they share it? 

Offline TheTraveller

i heard rumours that the Chinese already launced a experimental em-drive into space.

They still waiting for results.  :o

My understanding is the Chinese experimental satellite has many experiments to conduct,  the non cryo EmDrive from Prof Yang's new team is one of the experiments.
When do they have telemetry of any results,  you think? And will they share it?

My sources suggest the data will be shared by Prof Yang's team.

The EmDrive works and it is time for deniers to move past failed reasons why it can't work to why it does work and to address all the reported experimental data in any theory.
« Last Edit: 11/30/2016 12:00 pm by TheTraveller »
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

Offline Willem Staal

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i heard rumours that the Chinese already launced a experimental em-drive into space.

They still waiting for results.  :o

My understanding is the Chinese experimental satellite has many experiments to conduct,  the non cryo EmDrive from Prof Yang's new team is one of the experiments.
When do they have telemetry of any results,  you think? And will they share it?

My sources suggest the data will be shared by Prof Yang's team.

The EmDrive works and it is time for deniers to move past failed reasons why it can't work to why it does work and to address all the reported experimental data in any theory.
looks like a old fahioned spacerace.. Shall i begin to save for a flying car ?   ;)

Offline CorvusCorax

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looks like a old fahioned spacerace.. Shall i begin to save for a flying car ?   ;)

Just hypothetically, what happens if everyone flies around in those? With thrust forces in the kilonewton range.

If the EM drive creates its acceleration by "pushing against the quantum vacuum", would that yield measurable residual effects for matter riding the wake of an em drive? Like thrust fluctuations in another EM drive flying directly behind a first one, or measurable forces on masses that are placed in the thrust vector? Or spacetime distortions and eddies, like some proposed warp drive designs would create?

Could the presence and operation of an EM drive be detected from a distance?

(I know I'm mixing a lot of concepts here that have nothing directly to do with each other. Just food for thoughts)

Offline TheTraveller

i heard rumours that the Chinese already launced a experimental em-drive into space.

They still waiting for results.  :o

My understanding is the Chinese experimental satellite has many experiments to conduct,  the non cryo EmDrive from Prof Yang's new team is one of the experiments.
When do they have telemetry of any results,  you think? And will they share it?

My sources suggest the data will be shared by Prof Yang's team.

The EmDrive works and it is time for deniers to move past failed reasons why it can't work to why it does work and to address all the reported experimental data in any theory.
looks like a old fahioned spacerace.. Shall i begin to save for a flying car ?   ;)

Gilo's existing fossil rotary engine tech can generate a lot of kWh of electricity per unit mass. Easy for that power plant to generate the kW Rf needed to drive a cryo EmDrive propless and wingless drone or helicopter replacement.
« Last Edit: 11/30/2016 12:33 pm by TheTraveller »
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

Offline TheTraveller

looks like a old fahioned spacerace.. Shall i begin to save for a flying car ?   ;)

Just hypothetically, what happens if everyone flies around in those? With thrust forces in the kilonewton range.

If the EM drive creates its acceleration by "pushing against the quantum vacuum", would that yield measurable residual effects for matter riding the wake of an em drive? Like thrust fluctuations in another EM drive flying directly behind a first one, or measurable forces on masses that are placed in the thrust vector? Or spacetime distortions and eddies, like some proposed warp drive designs would create?

Could the presence and operation of an EM drive be detected from a distance?

(I know I'm mixing a lot of concepts here that have nothing directly to do with each other. Just food for thoughts)

It doesn't push against the quantum vacuum.

The force reversal with and without a dielectric just killed that theory, as it did Lorentz force, thermal expansion, MiHsC and most other theories.
« Last Edit: 11/30/2016 12:39 pm by TheTraveller »
It Is Time For The EmDrive To Come Out Of The Shadows

Offline CorvusCorax

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It doesn't push against the quantum vacuum.

The force reversal with and without a dielectric just killed that theory, as it did Lorentz force, thermal expansion, MiHsC and most other theories.

So the theoretical explanation as proposed by the NASA paper is already obsolete? Sorry, my theoretical background isn't strong, that implication wasn't obvious to me.

Offline Peter Lauwer

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It doesn't push against the quantum vacuum.

The force reversal with and without a dielectric just killed that theory, as it did Lorentz force, thermal expansion, MiHsC and most other theories.

So the theoretical explanation as proposed by the NASA paper is already obsolete? Sorry, my theoretical background isn't strong, that implication wasn't obvious to me.
Phil/TheTraveller is a well appreciated contributor to this forum, but I don't think he has the authority in theoretical physics to dismiss all these theories at this moment. Neither have I, but I might have a little more background in these matters and I certainly wouldn't put such strong a statement now.
What is probably more important, is that Phil has a lot more confidence in the explanations Roger Shawyer gives about his (reported) observations than most other regular forum contributors do.
;-)
Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool.    Richard Feynman

Offline ARW

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looks like a old fahioned spacerace.. Shall i begin to save for a flying car ?   ;)

Just hypothetically, what happens if everyone flies around in those? With thrust forces in the kilonewton range.

If the EM drive creates its acceleration by "pushing against the quantum vacuum", would that yield measurable residual effects for matter riding the wake of an em drive? Like thrust fluctuations in another EM drive flying directly behind a first one, or measurable forces on masses that are placed in the thrust vector? Or spacetime distortions and eddies, like some proposed warp drive designs would create?

Could the presence and operation of an EM drive be detected from a distance?

(I know I'm mixing a lot of concepts here that have nothing directly to do with each other. Just food for thoughts)

Is quantum vacuum(QV) local(Is it even correct wording?)? I mean relative to sun alone we are moving 30km/s so if it's not 'local' we literally fly through QV at high speeds that there shouln't be much disturbance because a second later the QV we 'disturbed' is not even on earth anymore.

Offline oyzw

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On the opposite to your impression, mine is that NASA will make announcement to keep itself away from EmDrive soon.

I agree with that assessment as otherwise they would have renewed Paul's contract and properly funded EW to build a next generation 100mN thruster that can exceed Ion drive efficiency. But then maybe that would upset a lot of other electric propulsion projects NASA is funding?

BTW what is your take on the stronger and reversed thrust direction when Paul tested the same frustum, torsion pendulum position and wiring position but without the dielectric? Surely removing the dielectric could not reverse and increase the strength of any Lorentz force?

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40959.msg1614369#msg1614369

If you note on the images, Paul did measure the Lorentz force (which didn't change) and used it to calc the resultant no Lorentz force values, being 2.0uN/W with dielectric big to small and 3.85uN/W small to big no dielectric. Note the direction of the force arrows in the 2 images.

To me this strongly says the forces that Paul measured are not the result of Lorentz forces, which for sure are there, were measured and the raw force values were adjusted for the Lorentz background forces.

The question is how to build a 100mN thruster when the validity of 100uN result is still in question.
When you are still arguing, I have been anxiously waiting for the space EMDRIVE test data in our country.

My info is the Chinese EmDrive space test is a non cryo EmDrive designed and tested on Earth by Prof Yang and a new Chinese engineering team.

So those who wrote and posted Prof Yang had retired were posting not correct data.
Space propulsion experiment is confidential to Professor yang. R & D efforts since 2014, Professor Yang has not known.

Offline therealjjj77

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looks like a old fahioned spacerace.. Shall i begin to save for a flying car ?   ;)

Just hypothetically, what happens if everyone flies around in those? With thrust forces in the kilonewton range.

If the EM drive creates its acceleration by "pushing against the quantum vacuum", would that yield measurable residual effects for matter riding the wake of an em drive? Like thrust fluctuations in another EM drive flying directly behind a first one, or measurable forces on masses that are placed in the thrust vector? Or spacetime distortions and eddies, like some proposed warp drive designs would create?

Could the presence and operation of an EM drive be detected from a distance?

(I know I'm mixing a lot of concepts here that have nothing directly to do with each other. Just food for thoughts)

Is quantum vacuum(QV) local(Is it even correct wording?)? I mean relative to sun alone we are moving 30km/s so if it's not 'local' we literally fly through QV at high speeds that there shouln't be much disturbance because a second later the QV we 'disturbed' is not even on earth anymore.

My understanding of QV is that it means the vacuum has no energy(or in real world it is isolated from most outside energy influences).

If general relativity is true, then there is no such thing as "zero" velocity as everything is relative to other objects.

Online meberbs

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On the opposite to your impression, mine is that NASA will make announcement to keep itself away from EmDrive soon.

I agree with that assessment as otherwise they would have renewed Paul's contract and properly funded EW to build a next generation 100mN thruster that can exceed Ion drive efficiency. But then maybe that would upset a lot of other electric propulsion projects NASA is funding?
I know you think that somehow the emDrive is 100% proven, but to most scientists it still looks like experimental errors are the most likely cause of any positive results. Any lack of funding is because they still haven't produced a signal that stands out from the noise (what EW measured was smaller than the thermal effects, and could easily be due to a different thermal effect with a different time constant.) Given the lack of conclusive results and the remaining high probability that this is still just experimental error, it would make sense that funding would go to technologies that have a reasonable chance at success due to their better chance of success and not because of some petty politics.

Your opinion is incorrect as it has always been.

Would suggest you spend intellect time on theory development instead of wasted time on stating EmDrive can't work because of X.

EmDrive works today as well as it worked in 1989 as per Roger's 1st patent.
Emphasis mine.

That is not what my post said. I suggest you learn to read what people say and consider it instead of putting words in their mouth, and dismissing them just because they disagree with you.

If you want a working theory you should open your mind to all of the other theories here.

Thats what I call a bombshell.  :o :o :o Can you give us more details? Who? When? Is it in space already? Please share! Is China really that far from the rest of the world?
Both TT and oyzw are making this claim, but since TT claims the experiment is by Yang, and oyzw claims it is confidential to Yang, At least one of them has bad sources, or is spreading misinformation. Since neither has provided any evidence their claims are true, and their claims amount to claiming they have access to Chinese classified info, this is little better than a conspiracy theory at this point.

Edit: fixed quotes
« Last Edit: 11/30/2016 03:39 pm by meberbs »

Offline Fugudaddy

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Thought this was interesting, but only because it seemed to imply interaction with the quantum vacuum.

http://www.eso.org/public/news/eso1641/?lang

but hey, I'm a computer geek and don't know these things for certain. Nonetheless- it seemed to be another pebble in the directions the EM drive have been pointing at.


Offline Chris Bergin

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